[HN Gopher] I'm an addict
___________________________________________________________________
I'm an addict
Author : tarunreddy
Score : 522 points
Date : 2022-05-18 19:31 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (tarunreddy.bearblog.dev)
(TXT) w3m dump (tarunreddy.bearblog.dev)
| lampshades wrote:
| As an actual addict I was thinking this would be about actual
| addiction. It's not.
|
| For future reference, dicking around on the internet is not an
| addiction.
| artemonster wrote:
| This hits hard. I recently counted hours watched on YT (via
| history export) and OH MY GD, it averaged around 3 hours daily
| throught the year, for several years. I just imagined WHAT IF I
| have spent this amount of effort and time on ANYTHING else:
| playing an instrument, learning a new language, coding a side-
| project. The thought scared me so much, aka the difference
| between current me and "potential" me that I have abstained from
| YT... for a week, and then I've slipped back. I am truly
| powerless, damn. Any other ideas besides cold turkey? I mean,
| some "quality time" needs also to exist, you cannot abstain from
| everything, right? Or is this a fallacy that gets alcoholics
| backs to alcohol?
| BbzzbB wrote:
| Did you estimate the hours by summing total video lenghts in
| history?
|
| As I recall there was no time spent stat, just video history
| eothout watchtime indication.
| artemonster wrote:
| There is no "official" way of doing this (as I imagine it
| will scare people away). You have to export your watch
| history as JSON that contains watch date and video ID. Then
| you obtain API key from google and iterate over all video IDs
| and add up video lengths. Yes, this is inaccurate for cases
| when you scroll thorugh a video and not watch it completely.
|
| For all of this there were multiple projects on github that
| do all of this + with plots.
| imtringued wrote:
| >I just imagined WHAT IF I have spent this amount of effort and
| time on ANYTHING else:
|
| That's impossible. You can click on a youtube video instantly
| at any moment and waste 3 hours thanks to the power of the
| algorithm. Spending that time on anything specific would
| require you to plan that into your schedule. You are not going
| to work on a side project when you think you have 30 min for
| some "harmless" fun but you sure are going to be trapped by the
| algorithm for three hours without planning to do so.
| 015a wrote:
| If you have YouTube Premium & the YouTube mobile app; click on
| your profile picture, then YouTube Premium Benefits. It'll tell
| you there, of all places, your total "Ad-free video watchtime";
| doesn't include the hours watched without Premium, not
| organizing it per day, not the greatest analytics, but its a
| number that will surprise every person reading this.
| switchbak wrote:
| A lot of the addictive component comes from the ML generated
| suggestions.
|
| Just curate a decently small list of high quality channels and
| only browse via the subscriptions list. You'll know when you're
| all caught up and the FOMO isn't there. You'll still catch the
| stuff you're interested in, but you won't be pulled in a
| million other random directions.
|
| That said, I have the YouTube bug pretty bad myself.
| orangepurple wrote:
| Read what Ted has to say about the necessity of going through
| the power process (paragraphs 33 onward) and the motives of
| scientists (paragraphs 87 onward) for some perspective in his
| manifesto on Industrial Society and Its Future:
|
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/unab...
| clcaev wrote:
| What a long-winded rant. Does he ever construct a reasoned
| argument?
| ironlake wrote:
| Based on the pipe bombs, I suspect that he does not.
| cyphar wrote:
| I started learning Japanese about two years ago now and now all
| of the time I used to waste watching YouTube is spent watching
| YouTube in Japanese as language practice. It's still the same
| activity but is at least somewhat productive. I barely go on
| Hacker News too, since it feels like more of a waste of time
| ("I could be studying Japanese right now!").
| wccrawford wrote:
| Any particular recommendations for an intermediate Japanese
| learner?
|
| Edit: Maybe "upper beginner" is a better fit. I dunno, self
| study is weird.
| cyphar wrote:
| It really depends on what you like. I personally just found
| Japanese versions of what I liked watching in English
| (cooking shows, true crime, some comedy, let's plays).
| Interestingly I found a new interest in house makeover
| shows after I saw some completely insane makeovers on Da
| Gai Zao (in one episode they put the entire house on rails
| and pulled it to the side temporarily in order to make new
| foundations).
|
| The only thing I couldn't find an abundance of is long-form
| video essays -- it seems that (for whatever reason) that
| isn't something that Japanese YouTube audiences want to
| watch. TV shows make documentaries which are kind of
| similar but those are also fairly hard to find.
| ehnto wrote:
| Self study is weird. I'm having a hard time finding good
| resources because I feel like the content is either too
| easy, not applicable by me, or completely impenetrable. I
| lack vocabulary and kanji knowledge to actually utilize
| grammar I've learned, but I also don't do well with rote
| memorization so I need material that's interesting and
| practical to learn with.
| wccrawford wrote:
| Yeah, for me my grammar is pretty weak, but I think my
| vocabulary is better. But I feel the same way about
| content. It's either too easy, really boring, or way too
| hard.
|
| I was hoping for an easy win here. ;)
| weatherlite wrote:
| Nice! is there some purpose like career advancement or is it
| simply about pleasure and learning a new culture?
| [deleted]
| cyphar wrote:
| Just found it interesting to be honest. I might move there
| for a short time just to experience it, but I wouldn't plan
| to live there for the long term.
| weatherlite wrote:
| Impressive stuff, I hope you get to the level you want!
| keep at it.
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| I did similar with video games, playing them in a different
| language made me feel better about it.
| pjc50 wrote:
| > 3 hours daily throught the year, for several years.
|
| So, less than the average amount of time people spend watching
| TV?
| artemonster wrote:
| still a lot, imho. considering how much we spend on commute,
| work, sport, preparing food and socializing, this is
| basically almost all your time budget as a "free" time. Then
| its either wasted consuming addictive crap or doing something
| interesting with it.
| nonameiguess wrote:
| Not to say it's a great use of your time, but watching YouTube
| videos is a fairly passive activity. You can do it when you're
| otherwise out of energy and barely able to pay attention, so it
| isn't necessarily competing with blocks of time in which you
| can do something like code up side projects and learn to play
| new instruments.
|
| Also, again maybe not for you, but a lot of people's numbers if
| they're just looking at watch history are going to be totally
| out of whack if they're using YouTube as a music streaming
| service. My wife's account is the one logged into our
| television and this would constitute the vast bulk of watch
| hours, having music on in the background while cleaning the
| house, cooking dinner, and doing a whole lot of other things.
| You definitely can't practice tuba in the background while also
| cooking and cleaning.
| wazoox wrote:
| Not only that, but now I watch all videos and listen to all
| podcasts at 1.5 to 3x speed. At some point I should accept the
| FOMO...
| UglyToad wrote:
| Very un-HN take but maybe you're not meant to be 100% efficient
| all the time, maybe having some time to be passive and relax is
| good actually. Maybe we work far too much already and expecting
| to be additionally productive outside those hours is an express
| train to burnout?
| thejackgoode wrote:
| The self-perceived problem with such behavior is not the
| hours spent per se, but the hours spent in state of absent
| consciousness. You jump from one compulsory behavior to
| another, it's not fun, it's just unconscious existence.
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| Instead of seeing them trying to maximize efficiency, think
| of them trying to maximize fulfillment. Now it makes more
| sense why binging Youtube (or whatever) might be a problem.
| And it's not about getting work done.
|
| It's about being happy with the life you're living, the life
| you chose, and being able to take control to work towards
| your fulfilling desires rather than just choosing the feel-
| good compulsions forever.
| enumjorge wrote:
| I don't think the parent comment is arguing for 100%
| efficiency though. They just don't feel comfortable watching
| YT for an average of 3 hours a day.
| azemetre wrote:
| I don't disagree with this but the constant state of being
| "plugged in" is the issue. Mind wandering is a real useful
| practice and the being plugged in is antithetical to mind
| wandering.
|
| Some of my most clearest thoughts, ideas, or beliefs came to
| me when I was just walking on the street not listening to
| podcasts, audio books, music or browsing social media.
|
| I think it's far more useful to literally stare at a wall for
| 3 hours than just mindlessly watch youtube videos. I say this
| as someone who is addicted to social media/internet as well
| and struggle very hard to overcome.
|
| What I do is use the freedom app to set time limits and ban
| these sites during periods of the week. I bought one of those
| timed safes where I stick my phone in to completely stop the
| temptation for 4 or 6 hours. I know I can't completely end
| it, but what I want to do is just nudge myself to do
| something else. Instead of grabbing a phone maybe I'll
| attempt to read a book, or draw, or work on some data
| visualizations, or contribute to OSS. All activities I'd say
| I value more than browsing reddit (or twitter or youtube or
| HN) for hours every night, but my actions prove otherwise.
|
| I'm not saying I've improved my habits 300% but at the
| beginning of the year I would read a book for 5 minutes put
| the book down pick up my phone then read reddit for an hour;
| at least now I can read a book for 45 minutes without being
| distracted. It hurts writing this because in college I'd read
| nearly 500 pages a week + my readings for class, I'd read
| nearly 200 books a year but over the last 5 years I've
| probably read 3.
|
| I don't know where I'm going with this, I guess my mind
| wanders when writing as well...
| yrt0012 wrote:
| It sounds like you're already approaching this idea on your
| own, but if you haven't checked it out already you should
| have a look at Digital Minimalism [1]. It's a really well
| thought out analysis of exactly what you're describing. In
| theory, a few hours here and there shouldn't be an issue.
| However, the main problem with modern media (social and
| otherwise) is that it is very insidious. It's not just
| about the time spent indulging, but also what that
| indulgence does to your mental state throughout the rest of
| the day.
|
| [1] https://www.calnewport.com/books/digital-minimalism/
| azemetre wrote:
| Thanks for the suggestion; but after reading one similar
| book, Stolen Focus by Johann Hari, and another that was
| tangentially related, Four Thousand Weeks by Oliver
| Burkeman. I now feel tapped out of the genre.
|
| One thing I enjoyed about Four Thousand Weeks was the
| story how people viewed work 100s and thousands of years
| ago, how whatever you didn't finish that day, you had
| time tomorrow to continue; I think this is a useful idea
| because modern society feels so "rushed" over work that
| isn't exactly useful. Also the idea of JOMO (joy of
| missing out); it was just a new heuristic introduced to
| me. We make choices all the time, we neglect doing things
| all the time. It's just a part of life, missing out on
| things means enjoying others It sounds like it's more
| stressful but it's not, at least how the book describes
| this.
|
| With Stolen Focus, I was a fan of the author's interview
| about his other book "Lost Connections" when he appeared
| on an episode of econtalk [1]. I won't say much else
| about Stolen Focus, except his tips on what he does to
| lessen the nodge toward social media is what I now do as
| well.
|
| [1] https://www.econtalk.org/johann-hari-on-lost-
| connections/
| jstummbillig wrote:
| > I just imagined WHAT IF I have spent this amount of effort
| and time on ANYTHING else: playing an instrument, learning a
| new language, coding a side-project
|
| This is a very unfair set of "ANYTHING else". I am sure you can
| come up with more real world list of what other people actually
| do after work, and that might make you feel a little more
| lenient about your own choices and needs.
|
| > Any other ideas besides cold turkey?
|
| /etc/hosts
|
| 127.0.0.1 youtube.com
|
| 127.0.0.1 www.youtube.com
|
| Best of luck.
| freemint wrote:
| I even have cron job which over writes /etc/hosts with an
| /etc/hosts.bak with that content and i have disabled any dns
| caching in firefox (don't ask me how). Yet .... Sigh ....
| ehnto wrote:
| Oh smart. I sometimes remove it and then forget to put it
| back, and forget that it was something I was supposed to
| put back, and also forget that those sites were something I
| was trying to avoid, so visiting them doesn't prompt me to
| put them back. The brain is really good at forgetting those
| minor details.
| jmiskovic wrote:
| Learning to play an instrument is fun and can be just as
| addicting. I'd recommend a small form keyboard that can be kept
| nearby at all times. I adore my Yamaha Reface CP, if you manage
| to find one. The best part - grinding through chords,
| arpeggios, scales and challenging song sections to get them
| into muscle memory can be done while watching unrelated videos.
| thingification wrote:
| > Getting over it: Besides blanket ban on all things video and
| social media, I don't think I have a better solution.
|
| beeminder.com
| klik99 wrote:
| The broadest definition of addiction I've heard is "When you do
| something compulsively enough that it's affecting the rest of
| your life" - the implication being that everyone compulsively do
| things and that's fine but it's only really a problem when it
| damages your relationships, careers, happiness, etc. All brain
| stuff has a chemical component but chemical dependency/addiction
| is a particuarly dangerous subset of addiction, and not
| necessarily what I'm talking about here.
|
| Many people here have the super power to focus on a problem
| relentlessly, it's kind of the trademark of the nerd stereotype -
| Addiction is the dark side of that superpower and one that I have
| to constantly keep in check. But I don't want to kill that
| superpower by squashing whatever thing I'm deep into at the
| moment, so I always use the litmus test - "Is this affecting the
| ability to keep my life in order?"
|
| As long as there isn't a strong chemical component to whatever
| addiction you're trying to purge, a book like "Power of Habit" by
| Charles Duhigg has a lot of practical ways to adjust your
| unconscious compulsions.
| ransom1538 wrote:
| "When you do something compulsively enough that it's affecting
| the rest of your life"
|
| Similar to what I was told: "When you compulsively do something
| despite it having negative impacts on your life"
| klik99 wrote:
| Yeah this is better actually, because "affecting" might be a
| positive thing :)
|
| But I like framing it this way because if you only think
| about compulsion you're going to waste a lot of time shutting
| down things that don't actually matter. We're creatures of
| habit - we've gotten this far BECAUSE of compulsion, not in
| spite of it.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| That "superpower" you mentioned is a good description of ADHD
| hyperfocus.
|
| People with ADHD are naturally at a constant deficit in
| stimulation/dopamine. That's why we get distracted mid-
| conversation: the conversation wasn't stimulating enough to
| fill that deficit, so the brain started looking for more
| stimulation, thinking it could just multitask to compensate.
|
| The deficit in simulation/dopamine is why people with ADHD can
| hyperfocus: as soon as there is a satisfying source of
| stimulation, the brain tries to squeeze out as much dopamine as
| it can.
| alexb_ wrote:
| When you stop being able to participate, know anything about,
| learn about, or do anything else in a community without the
| internet, what other choice do you have?
| mavili wrote:
| You're speaking for many people in your situation, but my
| question would be, do you really feel good doing what you're
| doing? Especially when the day is over and you get into bed, do
| you have moments of hating yourself for wasting the day? If that
| "regret" occurs to you, then that should be your motivation to
| not indulge (if you can call it that) in the activities that are
| not useful or beneficial for your future.
| moron4hire wrote:
| Hey folks. If this resonates with you _at all_ , you really need
| to talk to your doctor about depression. I'm seeing a lot of
| textbook symptoms being mentioned in here.
| fasteddie31003 wrote:
| I watch a lot of YouTube because I like non-fiction content over
| the fiction on Netflix. I used to like the documentaries on
| Netflix but they all seem to have a similar formula and
| sensationalism. I like how-to content which gives me inspiration
| to take on projects. I could see YouTube becoming an issue for me
| if I got sucked down a rabbit hole that didn't have any
| meaningful ends. But for me if consuming YouTube content leads to
| meaningful ends, it's not an issue.
| shroompasta wrote:
| User Retention is a trillion+ dollar industry.
|
| At what point can we stop placing the blame on ourselves and
| towards those who make these products?
| overgard wrote:
| I know these compulsive behaviors arent good but these are first
| world problems compared to like a substance addiction where
| stopping without help could kill you and getting hekp could
| bankrupt you. We need a different word for this than addiction
| because it really diminishes it.
| archiewood wrote:
| I feel the pain of internet vices.
|
| What worked for me recently (for the last 4 months only - so
| can't claim victory yet) was exercise and a goal (so I don't
| bail). Decided to run a half marathon. Found a training plan
| where I run 5 days a week.
|
| - Now I have to get up at 7am (Before: 8.55am for 9am start) - If
| I don't get to bed by 11:30pm I feel lousy running (Before: 2-4am
| bedtime) - And it makes me shower and eat breakfast (Before: no
| shower, no food)
|
| It's basically added a bunch of structure to my day, which has
| really helped with work
| yamrzou wrote:
| > I'm simply incapable of doing things I've set out to do. Simple
| things. Everything is difficult.
|
| "Independent discharges of dopamine neurons (tonic or pacemaker
| firing) determine the motivation to respond to such cues. As a
| result of habitual intake of addictive drugs, dopamine receptors
| expressed in the brain are decreased, _thereby reducing interest
| in activities not already stamped in by habitual rewards._ "
|
| From: Dopamine and Addiction | Annual Review of Psychology --
| https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-psych-...
|
| ----
|
| Edit:
|
| I'd like to add a couple more ideas, because what you're
| describing in your article is spot on, and I believe can be
| generalized past your own experience.
|
| > Another angle that makes this ever more distressing is that my
| memory is very, very fallible ... I can confidently say that I've
| done nothing I said I would do there."
|
| Herbert Simon says: "In an information-rich world, the wealth of
| information means a dearth of something else: a scarcity of
| whatever it is that information consumes. What information
| consumes is rather obvious: it consumes the attention of its
| recipients. Hence, a wealth of information creates a poverty of
| attention".
|
| As an information-addict myself, I've been meditating a lot about
| this topic. During the past two years I've been researching it
| from a psychological perspective (And for that, I'm grateful to
| @ericd for this HN comment:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24581016). I'll throw in
| some resources that I've came across during this journey, in case
| anyone finds them useful:
|
| - Dr Gabor Mate: Addiction:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-APGWvYupU
|
| - Dr. Anna Lembke: Understanding & Treating Addiction | Huberman
| Lab Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3JLaF_4Tz8
|
| - The book "The Molecule of More" by by Daniel Z. Lieberman and
| Michael E. Long.
|
| - The book "The Shallows" by Nicholas Carr.
| shroompasta wrote:
| I've read The Molecule of More and didn't consider it all too
| great of a read.
|
| There were some correlations that didn't sit well with me -
| one, off the top of my head, was an implication that MDMA
| consumption could make me politically conservative.
|
| I personally would recommend just Huberman as he covers
| Dopamine to a great extent.
| orangepurple wrote:
| It should also be mentioned that the most addictive and
| dopaminergic drugs _most_ people in the Anglosphere consume
| daily are the wide variety of pre-made pre-cooked fast food
| meals which are engineered for maximum palatability. These days
| this goes for just about everything that isn 't bought in the
| grocery store in its purest form. Just about every product on
| the shelves these days is contaminated with engineered
| ingredients to get you a stronger feeling of reward so you come
| back for more.
|
| "Talk to me about taste, and if this stuff tastes better, don't
| run around trying to sell stuff that doesn't taste good." -
| Stephen Sanger, head of General Mills
|
| You can search the web using that quote to begin your descent
| into the rabbit hole.
|
| The food you eat does not just affect your body weight. It also
| affects your mental state.
| hericium wrote:
| Also from Huberman: "Controlling Your Dopamine For Motivation,
| Focus & Satisfaction" [1]
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmOF0crdyRU
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| Are you very familiar with ADHD? It's very much the same
| effect, except instead of substance abuse/addiction as the
| cause, it's a natural chronic deficit in stimulation.
|
| I find this YouTube channel very informative (albeit cheesy):
| https://m.youtube.com/c/HowtoADHD
| ambivalents wrote:
| I feel for this writer. Whoever you are - you might be struggling
| but you are also so aware, even when you say you're not, and
| that's the first step if you do want to change. I imagine there
| are legions of others going through the same cycles that can
| continue this blissful mindless existence day after day, but they
| may eventually look back and wonder what their life was even for.
|
| My two cents - turn inwards for a little while. Fascinate
| yourself with yourself. Learn everything about yourself. From
| there you will find a purpose, which I think is what you're
| lacking so you let others fill up that space.
|
| Meditating can help you separate all these stories you have about
| yourself from the true you, which is beyond words. Sit in silence
| and learn what it's telling you.
| nonamenoslogan wrote:
| In 2016, after a few years with bitcoin as my main obsession, I
| did something similar. Blocked bitcointalk.com at my router and
| on my phone using an Adblock program. Took me a few months to
| lose the urge to look at the drama/bs happening on that site and
| forget about "crypto." So glad I did.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| > my memory is very, very fallible
|
| You need sufficient sleep to make short-term memories last.
| Author already said he's not getting enough sleep.
| pelasaco wrote:
| I don't know where you are located, but I know for sure where you
| are not located: Ukraine. Modern world problem can always be
| solved with Ancient problems: Live threatening issues, people
| depending on you, etc. You should fine a meaning for your life.
| Move away from the inertia.
| awsrocks wrote:
| michalstanko wrote:
| It scares me how much this reminds me of myself. I don't know how
| I was able to keep my job (and keep the roof over my family's
| heads) with my habit of not being able to concentrate on work at
| all because the minute I need to think a bit harder I immediately
| switch to reading news, HN or watching YouTube, only to finish my
| work late in the evening to save my ass (on good days).
| klondike_klive wrote:
| Not that I've conquered it by any means, but I find narrating
| helps for me to maintain a thread of activity. Lots of my work
| involves switching between applications & cloud folders and any
| break in that can trip me up. I find if I talk to myself as if
| I were explaining what I'm doing (ie a tutorial but not as
| rigorous) that really helps. I used to use screen capture
| software to take time-lapse videos to give myself the
| impression I was being watched/monitored. But that isn't as
| effective as I know I'll probably never watch them.
| projektfu wrote:
| Yeah it is definitely for me a reaction to feeling overwhelmed.
| There's just that bit of activation energy that is missing so I
| slip back to equilibrium of doing easy things.
|
| Adderall has helped, so has some behavioral approaches, but
| nothing is a cure. For me, trying to eliminate distractions is
| either a distraction itself or ineffective.
|
| Structured procrastination is useful, at least I am practicing
| piano or getting more fit instead of sitting around watching TV
| or reading dumb articles and forums.
| FeepingCreature wrote:
| High BPM music does it for me.
| imtringued wrote:
| Music works for me too. When I listen to music, the feeling
| of choosing between "fun" and "work" disappears because I get
| to do both. Once I am focusing on the work I no longer pay
| attention to the music and I don't stop having fun with the
| work.
|
| The biggest problem is that I am randomly bored and watch a
| youtube video. It's just 15 minutes after all, how much could
| it hurt? and then I waste 2 hours which is 105 minutes more
| than I had when I started watching that video. Maybe I should
| play mobile games because those have those pesky daily energy
| limits that stop you from playing more.
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| Same, or mostly just mixes that go on for an hour or two
| which I can put on so I don't end up distracted clicking
| through tracks and discovering shit I want to get. I also
| have to remind myself to set time aside for checking
| tracklists on tracks.
|
| Helps I got a side gig playing music haha but my bookmarks on
| that are gargantuan. The dancehall reggae section alone is
| massive. I never listen to that and get stuff done, really
| the best concentration music for me doesn't matter the BPM it
| just has to be mostly free of lyrical content. So work music
| is mostly electronic or classical.
|
| What are you listening to that's high BPM for work? That hard
| techno shit out of Europe lately is a lot of fun, Anetha is
| incredible [1]
|
| [1] https://youtu.be/qVRj8-t4PwI
| FeepingCreature wrote:
| Lucy Stoner on Soundcloud has been good for me. I've been
| putting https://soundcloud.com/lucystoner/bangface# on
| pretty much on loop. Before that it was DJ Sharpnel's
| Youtube channel. It's an open question for me what the best
| ratio of beats to memes is; I like when the music makes me
| smile a few times over a track, but is mostly fast, melodic
| rhythm without voice - or voice without content; remixes
| with japanese samples work well, like
| https://soundcloud.com/dreamydust/ddmix32 .
| seti0Cha wrote:
| I'm not an addict, but I'm addict adjacent, literally and
| metaphorically. While it's good that the poster identified the
| problem, the cold turkey approach is not usually sufficient.
| Beating addiction by simply removing the thing you are addicted
| to is very difficult because it leaves a big hole in your life.
| You need to replace your addiction with something healthy.
| Andreas did very effectively because he found something that both
| occupied his time and gave him a new community.
| ragingglow wrote:
| jannki wrote:
| You may be interested in the ACT therapy
| cassepipe wrote:
| _Quietly turning back on the noprocrast hacker news setting_
|
| Getting out of Facebook or before watching TV was rather easy, it
| was mostly uninteresting stuff I did not choose to watch.
|
| Youtube and Hacker News got me. The quality, sometimes life-
| changing, content I have had access to there is really hard not
| to get into. Augmenting friction in accessing the content in the
| only way I found that works when I succeed convincing myself it
| is a real problem. This way it tilts the tediousness of accessing
| them towards the tediousness of boring tasks, which I have
| learned to find ways to make less tedious in turn. Trying to find
| balance in the addiction. Restraining from it in order to give
| time to interesting content to bubble up.
|
| Also I have also been distancing so much from social activities
| only because they were slightly dissatisfying but instead of
| working on fixing them (which feels to me impossible because I
| lack the communication skills and I have an irrational core
| belief that no one can withstand even slight criticism) I'd
| rather spend time reading/watching about stuff that interests me
| on the internet. I manage to keep my life in order but I am not
| really investing in making something out of it. All the things
| I'd like to do irl, build a ecological passive house, build low
| tech devices, I lack the economical resources and social bonds to
| even start even though I am competent.
|
| I don't know if I was always was a nerd (not the brilliant nerd
| type) or if I became one. Anyways I am doomed until this really
| becomes a hard problem in my life.
| IYasha wrote:
| We're in the same boat! But I fell for it, like, 15-20yrs ago.
| Have been restricting myself since, basically, to the web 1.0
| level. I don't have broadband anymore, only limited plan, - this
| stops me from watching videos. This was a conscious step. After
| setting up some physical barriers it became easier to change my
| own mindset (I knew I didn't have such an iron will to begin
| with). Also, knowledge helps. For example, being concerned with
| own privacy, security and health, prevents me from using garbage
| like tiktok or instagram. There's also conventional wisdom which
| tells me to stop trying to catch on with everything (HN news
| stream, for example :) ). Although it was necessary for my line
| of work for quite a while, but in life it brings nothing but
| sense of miss or loss like "Oh I could've done this/involved with
| that/joined those projects/used this library/visited that
| conference/etc. Sorry if this comment turned into ramblings )
| dgb23 wrote:
| HN is somewhere in the middle of useful and interesting versus
| distracting and repetitive. It's valuable enough for me to keep
| track of. I've noticed that I like it more through RSS. Because
| I don't see upvotes and comment counts there.
| natly wrote:
| I used to be like this. I solved it by making my default activity
| reading (anything, stop if you don't enjoy it, novels are great)
| and working out. Just getting a week or month break is sometimes
| enough to break the habit (but best to do it in a way doesn't
| feel like an endurance challenge - that replaces it with
| something else fun or stimulating).
| FrankyHollywood wrote:
| yes, that and go to sleep the moment you get the urge to eat
| lots of sugars, which usually means your brain needs rest.
| dgb23 wrote:
| I can relate too. Throw in video games and beer too for good
| measure.
|
| For me there was no big Aha moment or solution to getting
| distracted from what I actually want to do. It had been
| incremental steps, such as:
|
| - focusing on consuming long form reading/videos
|
| - heavily curating consumption with RSS, individual settings
| etc.
|
| - disabling notifications of anything that is not important
|
| - taking responsibility of things that I could avoid, engaging
| more
|
| - regular exercise and sleep
|
| Things like that. But again, incremental steps. Sometimes I
| shifted from one distraction to the next, but after recognizing
| this it becomes clearer what's happening.
|
| The results are quite powerful. Over just a couple of years I
| gained so much. I started to get bored of things that would
| distract me otherwise. I gained confidence and especially
| courage. I recognize undesirable behavior really quickly now
| and stopped fooling myself.
| aphroz wrote:
| We're all being sucked in the internet. It's so easy to become
| addict to video, podcasts, games, etc. nowadays that I would not
| be surprised if that becomes a major society issue.
| harryvederci wrote:
| We may just as well call it the InterCage at this point.
|
| Nets are for trapping prey, that part has been completed a long
| time ago.
| SkipperCat wrote:
| I always thought in 20 years, Facebook (or its equivalent) will
| have warning labels similar to how cigarettes do now. People
| should be free to do as they please, but I would hope that as a
| society, we would at least inform people as to what the actual
| product is designed to do.
|
| You could think of it like the nutrition labels on food.
| Imagine a pop up when you log onto reddit saying "this site on
| average engages users for 90-120 minutes per session". That
| would give you some forethought about how much value you're
| getting from the engagement and prompt you to make a different
| decision. Or at least a more informed decision.
| lexandstuff wrote:
| Great. Another popup to dismiss!
| Snowworm wrote:
| Someone make this a browser extension!
| rr808 wrote:
| Yeah I'm surprised there are lots of articles about keeping
| ipads from children, but not much about their parents.
| gitfan86 wrote:
| The problem I have is that some of the content is really good.
| I have been able to lose weight consistently and easily because
| I found resources online that helped me understand the science
| and cut through all the bullshit that we are inundated with
| around nutrition. My confidence and results in investing are at
| an all time high because I can fill in the gaps of
| understanding with a range of experts on YouTube.
|
| But, it does seems like an addiction when I want to accomplish
| a task and 20 minutes into that task I'm back on YouTube or
| forums looking for more interesting data.
| mdoms wrote:
| PebblesRox wrote:
| What are your top recommendations for weight loss resources?
| gitfan86 wrote:
| There are two parts to weight loss:
|
| 1. Physiological: This is relatively easy. The key is to
| understand how to get an accurate account of incoming
| calories and an accurate count of outgoing calories. When
| you have an accurate count of those you can lose weight.
| Andrew Huberman is really good on this: https://www.youtube
| .com/watch?v=GqPGXG5TlZw&ab_channel=Andre...
|
| I say this one is easy because it is very easy to be
| misinformed about food. For example, someone may have heard
| that salads or protein bars are low calorie and healthy,
| but that isn't necessarily true. And once they realize that
| they can adjust their food intake to account for accidently
| over eating.
|
| 2. Psychological: Generally speaking, a lot of people with
| drug, alcohol, or food problems are dealing with some sort
| of stress, anxiety, depression, or childhood trama.
| Everyone has a limit to their will power. So even if you
| strengthen your will power if there is another force acting
| against that will power it will win and you will stress eat
| or stress drink. Depending on this situation, Therapy,
| Meditation, life changes, rehab can help.
| supernihil wrote:
| I dont like the idea of replacing the time spend compulsively
| procrastinating with "learning a new language, getting a pet,
| going to the gym" is the right way.
|
| I see the root cause (for me atleast (used to read HN and blogs
| for 4 hours everyday)) is that i cant stand being with myself.
|
| During the last two months ive been trying to not panic when i'm
| idle. And not take out my phone or read the nearest material i
| can lay my hands on.
|
| Instead i try to accept the necesity of "falde i staver" (danish
| for 'falling out of presence'). When i was a kid i would often
| just fall into this state and just defocus with my sight and let
| daydreaming take over.
|
| Basically i have a war going against effectiveness. I hold unto
| my right as a mammal to be inefficient and sit drooling looking
| at trees.
|
| My advice on "doing something" when you have day without plans is
| the following: Bike in the forrest, coffee from thermos near the
| ocean, read newspapers at the library, talk to people at
| trainstations (the frequent hangouts are always open for
| conversations)
| jnovek wrote:
| I am nearly the opposite, but it has the same effect.
|
| I can spend hours in my own head, just thinking about...
| everything. For me the phone rabbit hole usually starts with an
| idea that needs more information to live.
|
| The outcome, however, is the same: I get very little practical
| work done, I am constantly behind and very frustrated.
| dhosek wrote:
| I've found that having a very finite procrastination activity
| (like, say, doing ten push-ups) _can_ help. The trick is
| finding something that can't be extended indefinitely.
| noobker wrote:
| > I hold unto my right as a mammal to be inefficient and sit
| drooling looking at trees
|
| here, here!
| tommit wrote:
| Quick question: we have a similar (the same?) exclamation in
| German, it's "hort, hort!" which would be translated to
| "hear, hear!", not "here, here!". Is it actually "here,
| here!" in English or it possible you've just mistaken the
| words after having only heard them?
| [deleted]
| Agamus wrote:
| The expression comes from England's Parliament. The full
| version is, "Hear, Hear the excellent speaker!"
| dqft wrote:
| You are right. "Hear, hear" is correct qnd indicates
| approval.
| tommit wrote:
| Thanks for clearing that up!
| wheybags wrote:
| It's "hear hear"
| anarticle wrote:
| At least if you know you have addictive tendencies you will get
| a benefit! :D It's a good first step to replacing a
| destructive/ineffective behavior with something a little
| better. I think in our software somewhere we all have a kind of
| addictive complex that for some, modern tech seems to be good
| at pushing. If you can wield it for good, I think that's a good
| change.
|
| I agree with you that the obsession with S-tier clearing life
| is very bad for people. I have many young friends who obsess
| over optimizing every move they make at cost to their sanity
| and time. Specialization is for insects.
| Ryoung27 wrote:
| I agree with you on not liking the idea of changing your time
| sinks. I ran into a similar problem as your's with Reddit, and
| realized it was because I did not really like my self.
|
| Somewhere along the way I realized I had not day dreamed or
| used my imagination for a long time because it was so easy to
| "read the nearest material I can lay my hands on".
|
| To add to your advice I would suggest to try to find out who
| you are without outside material and to get comfortable with
| this self.
| galangalalgol wrote:
| But what if being in the moment at one with yourself and your
| environment is an addiction for you as well? I spent years in
| the trap he describes. Binging passive eacapes like YouTube
| Netflix, an even pulp fiction novels. Video games were a step
| up, at least they involved engagement. I also loved solo
| hiking, or even staring at a blank wall thinking, or not
| thinking. Anything to avoid cleaning the dishes, folding
| clothes, filling out forms, making phone calls, or any task I
| couldn't manage to hyperfocus on. I only escaped by getting
| married and having a kid. Love for others helped where love
| to self did not. After all, I was happy in that place, and
| probably still would be. But while a family is work, its also
| a challenge, and rising to meet it gives a real sense of
| accomplishment. Now that I am diagnosed as ADHD and have some
| mmedicine and training to deal with it, I find that using
| them to push through other tasks I don't like, also brings
| that sense of accomplishment and those unexpected rewards
| make it easier the next time. ADHD brains don't accept
| deferred rewards as positive reinforcement for learning
| purposes, so you either need continuous rewards, or
| medicine/tricks to get through. Also we respond better to
| negative reinforcement, so if it doesn't harm your emotional
| state, denying yourself things as a punishment can work, also
| focussing on natural consequences of failing to complete a
| task works sometimes, even in advance.
| notacoward wrote:
| > I hold unto my right as a mammal to be inefficient and sit
| drooling looking at trees.
|
| OK, I get this. Really, I do. I've spent many many hours doing
| "nothing" just like this, and those have generally been happy
| times. But ... how would that change if you had a _lot_ more
| free time? Could you spend all day every day in such a state?
| Would it be healthy if you did?
|
| The reason I ask is that I've had to grapple with that question
| since I retired. Probably will even more so when my daughter
| leaves for college. And as much as I enjoy doing "nothing" I
| find that I just can't do it all day. I have to be doing
| _something_ , which brings us right back to the issue of low-
| effort low-reward activities (e.g. doomscrolling on the
| internet) vs. high-effort high-reward activities (e.g. hobbies,
| community involvement, travel). I force myself to do the latter
| _first_ so I don 't lose the ability to do hard(er) things, and
| there's still plenty of time left over for the low-effort
| stuff.
|
| I suggest that your "war" only needs to be fought because you
| don't have enough total free time, and it will seem like a very
| different war when that changes.
| supernihil wrote:
| I agree. I recently came on sick leave due to stress and had
| to grasp the immense amount of sudden time on my hands.
|
| Since i am on sickleave due to anxiety, stress and skizotypia
| i dont usually like being alone with my thoughts.
|
| so what ive done with my time is this:
|
| Wake up, fill my thermos with hot water. Leave my apartment.
|
| Drive around on my bike looking for hidden places. It can be
| an empty lot behind a supermarket or an off-path place in the
| forrest.
|
| Walk around and study the vegetation. Find a nice place for
| some instant coffee, chill.
|
| Sit-drink coffee-stare-listen-repeat.
|
| Decide to leave. Bike to a place where there is a lot of
| people i know. Leave cuz i am too anxious to talk to any of
| them.
|
| Have a quick chat at the harbour with some strangers.
|
| Go to the library and read a bit of comics or newspapers.
| Take the bus to another harbour.
|
| Make minor.fixes to my small boat from the 70's.
|
| Go to the swimming hall. chill in sauna and max up the heat.
| Stare.
|
| Go home, make food for minimum money as an exercise. Eat.
|
| Think about projects i could imagine would be fun. Imagine
| the details of them. Maybe write them down. Be okay with
| never doing them.
|
| Watch some hbo.
|
| Plan when i have my kids again "maybe tomorrow?" And where to
| take them? Usually the beach or the forrest and have fun in
| the woods.
|
| Go my my bedroom without any devices and sleep.
|
| I live in denmark
| supernihil wrote:
| >i suggest that your "war" only needs to be fought because
| you don't have enough total free time, and it will seem like
| a very different war when that changes.
|
| My war is personal, ive been over productive for 7 years like
| this: Work 50+ hours as it engineer, taking on too much
| responsibility. Doing opensource projects in spare time.
| Doing srt projects like stage shows and stuff on weekends.
| Being a dad to 3. Being main supplyer of moneys in the home.
| Having some heavy duty mental ilness diagnoses on the top.
| All the while i never felt i was worth anything. Not a dime.
|
| Now i aim for having low amount of recurring bills. Chill
| with my kids (i now dont live with anymore since the above
| details produced my divorce) Be outside, all weather, all the
| time. Be helpful. And accept a new way of not being
| productive. And therefore also not consuming a lot.
| aswegs8 wrote:
| This somehow points towards an interesting question. Is it
| healthy or "good" to procrastinate? Since this is a problem
| almost everyone has during their life, it must serve some
| evolutionary purpose.
|
| What if it was disadvantageous to outwork everyone else
| during anthropogenesis even if it is rational in our modern
| world where the upside is practically unlimited and the
| downside is nearly always limited? A natural environment is
| almost exactly the opposite - Does that mean we are fighting
| our "natural" behavior every day? This question isn't meaning
| to be fatalistic, exactly what OP and the video by Luke Smith
| he linked criticize. But understanding the biological reason
| behind procrastination could lead us to some deeper
| understanding on how to win this uphill battle.
| bsedlm wrote:
| > _I hold unto my right as a mammal to be inefficient and sit
| drooling looking at trees._
|
| yes, I even like framing this as an environmental conservation
| activity.
|
| I'm doing nothing at all (only consuming oxygen, no content, no
| nothing) as a conscious action to save the environment.
| Robotbeat wrote:
| I don't want to guilt anyone here, but just sitting there and
| consuming oxygen and therefore calories is a significant
| environmental impact. Feeding humans, especially fresh fruits
| and vegetables or meat, has a pretty large environmental
| impact. (Staples like grains and such don't because they're
| storable and calorie-dense on a per-acre metric.)
|
| And humans can have a positive impact on the environment. We
| can plant trees, do civil engineering to shore up damaged
| ecosystems, care for animals, develop cleaner ways to live
| and make food, etc. humans do not have to be a net negative
| for the environment.
|
| Which isn't to say that resting and daydreaming are bad or
| net negative. I think they're good! Even if just good for the
| soul, that helps fight the encroaching nihilism of modern
| life and think more in a positive-sum manner.
| gunfighthacksaw wrote:
| > Staples like grains and such don't because they're
| storable and calorie-dense on a per-acre metric.
|
| So you're saying that I should have some potato chips on
| hand for when I'm being lazy? You seem wise.
| bsedlm wrote:
| reminds me of church of euthanasia's "save the planet kill
| yourself" from the older internet.
|
| the point is that it's the least we can consume, in
| contrast with a more capitalist friendly "go sit at a cafe
| to buy a drink" or even a scholarly-ambitious "read a book,
| or newspaper or learn something, don't just sit there".
| both of which are much worse.
| Robotbeat wrote:
| But that just wastes the big climate impact that was
| invested to grow you to adulthood. Now is the time to
| reinvest in the Earth. Humans can definitely have a net-
| negative carbon footprint if they work at it.
| tylersmith wrote:
| I think his point is that instead of minimizing
| consumption you should aim to actually produce something
| and not just drain "minimal" resources sitting around day
| dreaming.
| whywhywhywhy wrote:
| Once you realize that idle brain time is when actual creative
| problem solving occurs without you conscious of it then its
| easier to let go. I definitely feel fine just staring out of a
| train window rather than my phone knowing this.
| mbg721 wrote:
| The way I view this is that there's no such thing as idle
| brain time. When you take away focused conscious thinking,
| the brain is built to do background problem-solving on its
| own. (This also makes sense if the purpose of dreaming while
| asleep is garbage-collection of unresolved thoughts and
| anxieties.)
| malux85 wrote:
| I see this a lot and I'm curious - why can't you stand being
| with yourself?
|
| You touch on it a little when you say you begin to panic when
| you're idle - what is the source of that panic? Is it FOMO? Is
| it un-processed traumatic memories? Is it unhinged neuroticism
| and overthinking? Is it something else? What is the source of
| that panic?
| nextaccountic wrote:
| > I see the root cause (for me atleast (used to read HN and
| blogs for 4 hours everyday)) is that i cant stand being with
| myself.
|
| > During the last two months ive been trying to not panic when
| i'm idle. And not take out my phone or read the nearest
| material i can lay my hands on.
|
| > (...)
|
| > My advice on "doing something" when you have day without
| plans is the following: Bike in the forrest, coffee from
| thermos near the ocean, read newspapers at the library, talk to
| people at trainstations (the frequent hangouts are always open
| for conversations)
|
| Or maybe meditate? It may be hard (specially when beginning)
| but it's wonderful for learning to comfortable with yourself
| katzgrau wrote:
| They're just cliche ideas for how to fill the time. Anyone one
| who tries to break an addiction suddenly finds themselves with
| a lot of free time they don't know how to fill.
|
| But on that note, have multiple kids AND get a pet. You'll
| never have a free minute again.
| nonamenoslogan wrote:
| Or multiple pets and no kids, got 2 labs, a cat, a fish, and
| a cockatiel--its never boring at my house.
| travisgriggs wrote:
| > But on that note, have multiple kids AND get a pet. You'll
| never have a free minute again.
|
| But then you'll flock to these addictions because you feel
| you need an escape.
|
| I have four kids and a ShiTsu.
| alex_suzuki wrote:
| I would strongly argue against having kids as a solution for
| _any_ of life's problems. Kids are an incredibly demanding
| venture and can exacerbate existing problems. Speaking from
| experience here.
| [deleted]
| sizzle wrote:
| I mean from a purely evolutionary perspective, the point of
| life is to pass on your genes to your offspring, so having
| kids would be winning at this game we call life...
| tonguez wrote:
| so life's greatest winner is genghis khan
| bko wrote:
| Do you have an alternative "point of life"?
|
| Is it career? If so, that's pretty depressing. Happiness
| is a superficial emotion. If your loved one was "happy"
| spending his entire life playing fortnight in his
| parent's basement, would you be sad for him? Charity?
|
| I don't know. Never found a meaning as compelling as
| having children.
| tonguez wrote:
| what a bizarre reaction to my comment
| bko wrote:
| I read your comment as somewhat dismissive at the point
| of life being having children because you made a joke of
| Genghis Khan "winning" the game of life.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| Why does there have to be a point? Just go with it.
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| greatest score - so far
|
| wait for the scientist who'll start printing soldier
| clones of himself
| adamdusty wrote:
| I think he was being facetious.
| alex_suzuki wrote:
| After rereading, I think you're right.
| maerF0x0 wrote:
| > for any of life's problems
|
| I understand it was hyperbole, but I would suggest one
| possible application of having and throwing everything
| you've got at raising children[1] to help with
| aimlessness/meaninglessness/purposelessness. Particularly
| when they're your own the common experience is your
| instinct/genome takes over and you'll find great imperative
| to do things you couldn't do for yourself. I learned about
| this concept from Jordan Peterson who also notes it works
| with pets[2]. For any bit of resentment about how the world
| has treated you, pouring yourself into someone else can at
| least give the solace that for them they will not suffer as
| much as you have, or at least not in the same insanity
| producing cyclical way as you had.
|
| [1]: (technically can also be someone else's like foster,
| adopt, church, mentor, nephews/nieces) .
|
| [2]: he talks about how people more frequently fill
| prescriptions for pets than for themselves.
| birdyrooster wrote:
| I know enough shitty parents to say this does not have a
| high rate of success in changing people for the better,
| but I will leave it to Jordan Peterson, he seems like a
| real expert type.
| Tao332 wrote:
| > For any bit of resentment about how the world has
| treated you, pouring yourself into someone else can at
| least give the solace that for them they will not suffer
| as much as you have
|
| Personally, I'm shocked at how just having kids has
| healed a lot of my held resentment. I used to look back
| at moments in my life that I wished had gone differently.
| Now I see that if you gave me a time machine and the
| chance to go back and change how I responded, I can't do
| it because I'd be erasing my kids.
|
| I wouldn't even be able to stop the covid pandemic,
| selfish as that may be.
| neitsab wrote:
| I find it surprising not seeing this more prominently mentioned
| in the thread so I'll leave it here: GET HELP.
|
| Seriously, what's the next step after acknowledging you have a
| disease (addiction being a well documented one)? GETTING HELP to
| treat it.
|
| You just established your default-mode mind isn't amenable to
| your wellbeing: how do you see it helping to correct itself
| without any outside input?
|
| As of this week, I just tipped back into sanity after 8 months
| being dysfunctional, another lapse into full avoidant coping
| mechanisms. It was certainly not the first time of my life, but I
| still got it wrong: I waited too long before reaching for help.
| As soon as I did the tide started stabilizing, and then it
| reversed. It took a couple of months (and leveraged the
| previously acquired experience) but it is obvious to me I'm back
| out of it now. Sleep, screen time, inner discourse... All
| indicators are in the green again.
|
| Procrastination, addictions are symptoms hinting at other root
| causes. Believing that you can implement measures to keep it in
| check goes right against the very essence of the issue (as the
| article perfectly illustrates), and shows you don't have the
| correct grasp of the situation yet. You're leaving too much to
| chance, and I can tell you this is absolutely inefficient.
|
| It is not the time to be picky and stick to one single truth(r)
| either: use a policy mix. The only required part is having
| someone TRAINED and EXPERIMENTED in dealing with your issue
| supervising your efforts. Someone you see in a regular fashion,
| each encounter creating another rung of the ladder that will get
| you out of this pit. Being in this kind of interaction
| tremendously helps with building the inner strength that up till
| now was lacking. They are your source of courage and support, the
| dam/dyke against which you fears, doubts and uncertainties will
| crash and subside. So make sure you _feel_ you can trust them and
| stay clear from overly intrusive ones. But don 't be too scared
| and just go to that first appointment.
|
| Beyond that, anything goes, ritual/habitual practices especially
| (building up strength over time thanks to repetition). As long as
| you have that one external support providing strength and
| continuity to your efforts, you are bound to succeed. It will
| take some time, but the burden will get progressively lighter and
| the results more stable.
|
| In the therapeutic frameworks department, I can strongly
| recommend EMDR, CBT and IFS (Internal Family System). If you can
| find someone in your area (or remote, you can actually self-
| administrate EMDR under the guidance of someone!) trained in one
| or several of those techniques that you get on well with, you're
| golden. This will most likely be the most efficient time-wise,
| but to a certain degree most things help, so start looking up
| directories of practitioners or local support group.
|
| Take care everyone.
| jimmydeans wrote:
| The internet was more addicting 20 years ago.
| dave84 wrote:
| Having to pay for it by the minute somewhat moderated the
| effect back then.
| capableweb wrote:
| Not sure but anyway, 20 years ago it might have been
| accidentally addicting just because it was new, shiny and
| interesting. Today it's addicting because some people are
| employed full-time by large companies to make their products
| more addicting, and that's part of their OKRs and more
| ("Engagement" being one such metric that many companies try to
| increase religiously)
| fileeditview wrote:
| Yes. It might have been addicting too back then but no one I
| knew of was checking news/social networks 24/7 and was always
| available online.. because these things did not exist in the
| way they do today.
|
| You went online to do something specific: play, research
| something or whatever else and you were not distracted by 500
| services fighting for your attention. It was a much healthier
| way of consuming.
|
| edited: grammar
| grumbel wrote:
| 20 years ago you still had to go and search if you wanted to
| see something. Now you have endless streams of recommendations
| that do the thinking for you. All you got to do now is watch
| and consume. And of course 20 years ago we didn't even have
| Youtube, it was mostly all still mostly just text.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| no way, tiktok looks like one of the most addicting platforms
| i've ever seen
| anoncow wrote:
| - Delete your history on your desktop and mobile browsers.
|
| - Delete shortcuts to websites that you frequent from the browser
| start page.
|
| - Replace your frequently visited websites with websites you want
| to visit.
|
| Rinse and repeat.
| stevendgarcia wrote:
| I have nothing constructive to add here - I just found this
| amusing. What can I say.. I'm a simple man.
| https://pasteboard.co/ZK0rNK25LqxH.jpg
| bgm1975 wrote:
| Get this man some adderall! It (or other ADHD meds, like Vyvanse)
| is a life changer for those of us afflicted with such things.
| aftergibson wrote:
| Hello fellow addict!
|
| Other than just blanket banning stuff (which never works for me),
| I've tried to make reducing my technical consumption into
| something interesting. Listening to podcasts on an iPod adds
| friction, as does writing on an old Psion device. I bullet
| journal too, it's a maintainable balance right now. Even reading
| books, any book, nothing technical or what I "should be learning"
| if I'm not up for it. They're all a nice experience, with (for
| me) just enough tech involved for it to be sustainable and fun.
| I've failed too many times to just ban stuff or "not look at a
| screen".
|
| I love the outdoors when I'm out there, but when someone suggests
| to just go outside instead of watching a video or playing a game,
| I just feel guilt and resent the outdoors a little more. Old tech
| has been a nice, interesting bridge.
| everyone wrote:
| I'm confused by this..
|
| "over 6 hours watching youtube videos, an hour of reading through
| comments[1] on hacker news, 3 hours of sleep and poof, the day is
| gone."
|
| The day is only 10 hours long? Also author is only getting 3
| hours of sleep per day!?!?
| ModernMech wrote:
| They are speaking figuratively about the day being gone.
| everyone wrote:
| That does not clarify things for me.
| ModernMech wrote:
| Okay, they are not literally adding up the hours in the day
| and accounting for how they spend 24 hours. Obviously they
| didn't include eating and bathroom breaks, so we know there
| are omissions here. They are saying the sum total of what
| they feel they are accomplishing in a day is waste time on
| Youtube and HN, and then sleep for a short amount of time.
| Maybe it's 3 hours, maybe longer. Later in the post the
| author says they have trouble with their memory, so these
| numbers may not mean anything at all in an absolute sense.
| The point though is that the author _feels_ like their
| entire day is consumed with videos.
| everyone wrote:
| Ok, I thought maybe the author is going to work getting 8
| hours sleep etc. And spends their _free_ time napping and
| watching youtube. I thought maybe they are software dev
| moaning about how they are not working on their side
| project in addition to a job. ... Which would be crazy!
| If u can hold down a job, pay rent, exercise, drink water
| etc. without losing it then youre doing great. You dont
| see many builders moaning that they dont build a small
| house in their backyard after labouring on the building
| site all day.
| bishopsmother wrote:
| This is why I'm building SocialsDetox. Tarun - if you register
| your interest (see about) I'll set you up with an account when
| it's ready for testing. With your help hopefully arriving at a
| method(s) to wean off Social Media, as opposed to cold turkey.
| wcoenen wrote:
| The paper "Large-Scale Study of Curiosity-Driven Learning"[1]
| talks about AI that likes to take actions that yield results that
| it didn't predict.
|
| The idea is that curiosity is good intrinsic reward function. The
| problem though is that it can get stuck doing something that is
| completely unpredictable, like changing the channel on a TV.
|
| I think this explains a lot about human addiction to endless
| videos as well. Ironically I learned about this from a YouTube
| video[2].
|
| [1] https://pathak22.github.io/large-scale-curiosity/
|
| [2] https://youtu.be/fzuYEStsQxc
| k__ wrote:
| I still get stuff done, but also lose so much time to mindless
| online consumption.
|
| I read about resetting dopamine receptors, but it's quite hard. A
| bit like losing weight.
| notacoward wrote:
| Personally I've found that trying to limit hours spent on
| $badthing is not as effective as requiring hours spent on
| $goodthing. (Note that "good" here is shorthand for whatever you
| find to be more rewarding in the long term, not a universal or
| moral concept.) For example, instead of saying I will spend no
| _more_ than X hours on social media or video games, I say that I
| will spend no _less_ than Y hours on exercise or craft hobbies.
| The key is to center the good things and fit the bad things
| around those, instead of the other way around. Make a schedule if
| you have to. Some people find that making a commitment to other
| people - e.g. a workout buddy, a craft guild - can help. Start
| small, with goals that are easier to achieve (though they 'll
| still require some exercise of will). As your self-discipline
| improves, you can change the balance accordingly.
| daniel-cussen wrote:
| There's nothing wrong with being an addict. I prefer hanging out
| with addicts than with persons without addictions.
|
| Become a Christian! It's a religion of slaves, three Popes were
| freedmen, it's a religion of slaves! Addicts are slaves!
|
| I will say that despite disbelieving the miracles entirely on
| scientific grounds, I started going to a Protestant service to
| develop a work ethic. And it worked!
|
| And the second thing I recommend is getting screened for
| Attention Deficit Disorder. Find a psych who has it too, like Dr.
| Matthew Stubblefield in California (show him this post), there's
| others too. So that will consolidate your addiction into
| depending on a single substance--under medical supervision--and
| be sated.
| 99_00 wrote:
| A couple of sessions with a psychologist or counselor can easily
| fix this if you want it fixed.
| SkipperCat wrote:
| Very well written article. Congrats on defeating your tech
| addiction this time.
|
| It is amazing how much thought and effort goes into designing
| Web2.0 to keep delivering small dopamine hits. I too burn thru
| hours watching tech videos, browsing tech subreddits, looking for
| juicy HN posts and rarely come across articles about how the
| stickiness is engineered. Maybe I'm browsing the wrong stuff or
| maybe they're just too embarrassed to publish it.
| robbrown451 wrote:
| I suggest an accountability partner. The biggest problem I've had
| with that is that my partners didn't have it as badly as me, so
| they didn't understand.
|
| The idea is you check in once a day (10 minutes or so), and just
| talk about what you've achieved, where you've failed, etc. It can
| be very effective.
|
| I've done some pretty extreme things in the past, such as hired a
| "coach" who would hold me financially responsible if I didn't
| send proof that I got up and walked the dog to the ATM machine by
| 8 am every morning. (we had complex rules and she had a check
| made out to charity, ready to send if I didn't achieve what I was
| supposed to) It was extremely effective while I did it, but only
| for really measurable things.
|
| I use a timer lock to keep cannabis locked up for a few days at a
| time, so I don't have to quit it (I think it is good for my
| creativity as well as for seeing "the big picture" and finding
| the positive, but it is bad if it is tempting me to use it while
| I should be working)
|
| If you are interested in getting a group together to do
| accountability partners, get in touch. (rjbrown at google's mail
| service)
| Mattasher wrote:
| For years I've tried to explain to people that working in tech,
| especially over time, is like having a job as a beer taster while
| living above a bar and hanging out with your drinking buddies all
| evening at that same bar, where an attractive bartender puts
| cocktails in front of you all night for free, all while trying
| not to become an alcoholic.
|
| Any addict who said their plan for sobering up was to live like
| this would be told they are going to fail with 100% certainty.
| solitus wrote:
| I agree, sometimes I feel like I should become an electrician.
| When I have to do manual work, I do manual work. When I have to
| code...it can go in many directions.
| probablyfiction wrote:
| There is increasing awareness that addiction and procrastination
| [1] are not indicative of laziness. Human beings are great at
| protecting their emotional core because it's essential to basic
| functioning. Addiction seems similar. Addicts seem to be
| attempting to escape something too (subjectively) difficult to
| face [2][3]. In my opinion it's often due to unresolved trauma.
|
| When we don't have the emotional tools to resolve trauma from our
| past, we resort to coping mechanisms. While I'm not a therapist,
| I've had to deal with my fair share of trauma and have come to
| learn a lot about how trauma affects us and the way we deal (or
| fail to deal) with our day-to-day struggles.
|
| 1. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/25/smarter-living/why-you-
| pr... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park 3.
| https://nida.nih.gov/about-nida/noras-blog/2018/10/new-nida-...
| upupandup wrote:
| I'm curious to know whether OP has experienced full on addiction
| to substances, gambling or sex. Because what he's describing does
| not seem to be any of those things, more about complaints that
| Youtube's recommendation algorithm is causing him to stay on that
| platform for hours. I don't know what other "pleasures' he is
| alluding to but I could infer here and say OP is male and he is
| probably referring to internet pornography.
|
| All of these things could very well be what you end up doing but
| its really up to the individual to make the choices and change.
| You can't really do this reading an article like this nor can you
| find any solace by identifying others with your problem because
| it quickly becomes Wounded Club.
|
| Instead of growing wiser, you stay wounded, thinking there is
| something wrong with you and you just end up like OP, watching
| youtube for hours on end, reading hackernews/reddit comments. If
| this is something you like to change then you need to take
| action. Without action all the advice in the world will do you
| squat.
|
| Unfortunately, as of late, its become fashionable and quite
| profitable to humblebrag about non-issues. Do you really think
| that if OP's behavior is possible if their life depended on it? I
| think not.
|
| One is too lazy to make a change then who's at fault? You can
| throw whatever 4 letter medical term and write entire books on
| it. It won't matter. If it is to be then its up to me.
| TimTheTinker wrote:
| You're largely right, but I think you're underestimating the
| cognitive deficits that come with ADHD, particularly executive
| function.
|
| The key to breaking through mental barriers as an ADHD-sufferer
| is usually _not_ more will-power or less laziness, though one
| must at least want to change. The key is externalization --
| that is, building external cues, props, and guardrails into one
| 's life to help one stay on task in the moment - whether that
| means doing work or resting. We have trouble doing both
| proportionately.
|
| Some people say they've had great success taking time every
| Sunday evening to review the past week and make adjustments --
| whether that be putting a post-it note on the computer,
| installing a browser extension, setting a series of reminders,
| or any number of innovative ideas. Whatever helps you
| externalize the decisions you'll need to make in the moment.
| upupandup wrote:
| I didn't mean to take a swipe at ADHD but point out that
| dwelling on problems isn't going change things. I'm glad you
| laid out actually a really good solution.
|
| Curious to know where you got this strategy from, think its a
| great!
| power_bands wrote:
| Your critique of this "Wounded Club" mentality is well placed
| and well taken but man this is like the least sympathetic
| response possible.
|
| Yes, we should take responsibility for improving our lives,
| especially in the face of clear signals that a change is
| needed. But, did it occur to you that this post was indeed OP
| taking responsibility for their suffering and a first step
| towards improvement?
|
| It takes a significant measure of courage and vulnerability to
| publish this confession OP has written. We can be pedantic
| about whether or not OP is clinically addicted to anything, but
| I see this post as a positive step in the same direction of
| healing/improvement you emphasized.
| gnramires wrote:
| So, here's what I'd like to have heard N years ago: try
| medidation (in the eastern philosophy sense). Of course, at its
| root meditation is just 'sitting still' (and not doing anything
| else); there are many things that could go in your mind while you
| sit still.
|
| Or simply set aside a sacred time block where you'll do nothing
| but think about what you will do for the day.
|
| Meditation lets you clear your mind of anxiety, at least for a
| moment (and I find this moment is extended until you can become
| much less anxious all the time). It lets you get face to face
| with anxiety and understand _why_ you 're anxious. Or why you're
| avoiding something (like doing chores, your work or your
| homework), and then you can work to address those whys -- it
| could be moving to a different job or simply joyfully accepting
| your situation. I recommend the Zen tradition simply because it's
| the one I'm most familiar with.
|
| Here are some suggestions for a meditation routine: (not exactly
| Zen meditation I believe, I've modified it a little)
|
| (1) Start by breathing and focus on your breath;
|
| (2) Scan your body and see if there's anything different or
| painful or uncomfortable; (I mean you whole body! every muscle
| that you know of, if you can) also take the opportunity to relax
| every muscle; be aware of your environment.
|
| (3) After you're relaxed, spend some time clearing your mind. If
| anything comes to mind, "archive it", like saving it to disk and
| freeing your RAM. Try to make your mind a peaceful, clean slate,
| like a still water lake.
|
| (4) Process whatever you're feeling uncomfortable about -- camly
| invite and embrace your fears and anxieties, understand where
| they come from, let them be felt, and then you can think clearly
| how to address them, without anxiety, fear or suffering.
|
| (5) (Optional) Reflect on what you've accomplished and what you
| need to accomplish in the near term. How do those relate to the
| world and the most social good.
|
| (6) Come out of meditation, slowly. Take a deep breath and resume
| your day.
|
| During this, sometimes I keep my eyes closed, half closed, or
| fully open (but not wandering, concentrated in a single point).
| This requires a large amount of concentration, and I believe you
| will improve your overall ability to focus with this practice.
| Feel free to ask questions and add suggestions :)
|
| edit: Another important teaching I got from (secular) Buddhism is
| to be realistic, attuned to reality (rationalism is a great
| resource as well). That includes the realism of your goals.
| Having unrealistic goals can make you really anxious and get in
| your way of doing anything at all. That doesn't mean you can
| improve; but for example tiny bits of realistic progress can be
| wonders for getting a project done, compared to unrealistic
| expectations of being active 100% of the time. Binges and
| distractions come when the reality of your limited stamina or
| simply rate of thinking clashes with your unrealistic
| expectations. Relaxing, resting, can be a healthy and necessary
| part of your routine, without unnecessary self-hatred and
| suffering.
| anon2020dot00 wrote:
| Work is boring a lot of times and so natural for people to avoid
| work and spend attention elsewhere.
|
| What's the solution?
| wnolens wrote:
| This also describes me so accurately I'm embarrassed.
|
| The only solution I've found that isn't an impossible uphill
| battle against my lizard brain is... Be around people.
|
| I'm not deep in an internet rabbit hole when I'm with another
| person. It's actually a motivator for me to live with a partner
| or roommates - they make me a 'better' person.
|
| Maybe they make me ->A person<- rather than a brain hooked up to
| a doping device.
| beattheprose wrote:
| I deeply resonate with this article. It's like the author read my
| mind.
|
| ADHD feels really big and complicated as it lives in my brain,
| and it's always difficult to grapple with the question of, "Am I
| really addicted and need help for that, or is it my ADHD and need
| help for that?"
|
| My best wishes go out to the author. I feel you.
| SnowHill9902 wrote:
| Knowing that HN is generally against it, I say it anyway: I
| recommend religion and religious teachings which address this and
| many other daily worldly issues perfectly. Christianity and
| Judaism both have excellent resources. Religious scholars have
| actually been the best psychologists but are generally dismissed
| by non-believers.
|
| Edit: for those asking for specific recommendations. It's always
| best to find your own path according to the religion of your
| parents and environment. However, I can suggest that you
| investigate Mussar and look up some books in English.
|
| "Musar is a path of contemplative practices and exercises that
| have evolved over the past thousand years to help an individual
| soul to pinpoint and then to break through the barriers that
| surround and obstruct the flow of inner light in our lives. Musar
| is a treasury of techniques and understandings that offers
| immensely valuable guidance for the journey of our lives.... The
| goal of Musar practice is to release the light of holiness that
| lives within the soul. The roots of all of our thoughts and
| actions can be traced to the depths of the soul, beyond the reach
| of the light of consciousness, and so the methods Musar provides
| include meditations, guided contemplations, exercises and chants
| that are all intended to penetrate down to the darkness of the
| subconscious, to bring about change right at the root of our
| nature."
| jsmith99 wrote:
| There are 'religious but not spiritual' groups for those who
| appreciate the structure of religion in their life but who
| don't believe in God. Atheist Quakers are an established group,
| and some Jewish groups seem close to an atheistic religion.
| bitexploder wrote:
| Religion for a modern person with the easy access to the
| knowledge we now have is effectively just being intellectually
| lazy. Some people do need help right now, but I don't think
| religions are any better than other addiction resources. AA
| gets a pass for me because I know atheists that used it and the
| religious component is easy to ignore. AA works because of the
| group and accountability, not faith in some higher power.
|
| Anyway, not to be insulting, but it is all a bunch of made up
| nonsense for a time when we did not have actual explanatory
| knowledge for our existence and universe. We do now. Religion
| and its institutions are dying out in industrialized nations
| because they have lost their claim to having all the answers.
| SnowHill9902 wrote:
| Are you saying that we (collectively) or at least you know
| why we exist and the meaning of life?
| bitexploder wrote:
| In broad strokes, yep.
| fipar wrote:
| I'm an atheist, yet I don't think science can answer why
| we exist and what is the meaning of life. I think those
| questions are syntactically valid but semantically
| invalid. We kind of (in the 'broad strokes' you say)
| think ( _) we know how we got here, how life got started,
| etc. But why? How do you know that? It 's an honest
| question because, again, I don't think that question
| makes sense so I'd love to know your take on it.
|
| (_) I say we think we know because I'm actually agnostic
| (I typically say 'atheist' because it stops some
| conversion attempts I'm not looking for from even
| starting, judging by your two comments on this thread I
| reckoned I can give you the honest answer as you won't
| try to convert me into anything!) and I believe we can
| only know what we conclude from the information collected
| by our senses and our thinking process after that, but an
| error in either the information collection (think of how
| the first scientific estimates of the age of the planet
| were off by a long shot on account of choosing a poor
| thing to measure -- I'm thinking about the work of Halley
| here) or in the thought process would result in bad
| knowledge, and it seems to me there's a part of the
| scientific-minded population right now that has a blind
| spot for this: there's overconfidence in science.
| bitexploder wrote:
| A fair response to my blithe and confident answer. In
| general, though, we have figured enough out to understand
| our origin well enough to rule out religious theories in
| our existence. To reduce things the way you did is a
| denial of progress at some level, while couching it in
| caution against trusting science too far. Our first
| bridges sucked, now they are better. Our first stabs at
| cosmology were not much better than another religion, now
| they are better. Is there some bad knowledge kicking
| around in science? Of course. That is why I said in
| "broad strokes".
|
| To cut to the chase: our brains are just piles of
| chemistry. There is no meaning. We make it up, and that
| is ok. "Why" we exist is coincidence and millions of
| years of happy little evolutionary experiments blindly
| conducted by nature. Maybe there is a Deus ex Machina in
| there, but for our purposes does it really matter?
| seti0Cha wrote:
| You're engaging with religion only as an explanatory
| mechanism for physical occurrences, whereas the weight of
| the argument for and against religion are on
| philosophical and logical grounds. It's not a strawman,
| as many people have used God to fill the gaps in our
| understanding of the physical world, but it's entirely
| irrelevant to the really interesting discussions on the
| subject. If you want to see what religious people are on
| about, and why some scientifically literate people
| continue to have faith you need to understand those
| arguments.
| bitexploder wrote:
| I mean, I grew up in a very religious environment and
| have met and had long discussions with religious
| scholars. You can couch it in as much sentimentalism and
| philosophy as you want, but to me it almost always falls
| apart when you dig to the real roots of religious
| scholarhsip and philosophy. Ultimately these people
| decide to have some level of faith in a thing that is
| contradictory to all evidence we have. It is an
| interesting thought experiment, but I can't find any
| principled reasoning behind it all at the bottom. Yes
| there are a lot of religious scholar types who will agree
| with all of science, and they continuously reform their
| belief system and philosophy around the scientific
| evidence. It is like having a belief system that wobbles
| and wiggles like Jello. Not to say that science has all
| the answers and is purely axiomatic, but at least that is
| its goal. Religious scholarship has a completely
| different agenda in my opinion and starts from a very
| different place when it tries to reason and I
| fundamentally disagree that it is a "really interesting
| discussion" beyond how people get sucked into believing
| it all. Without being dismissive, I do think I have a
| basic grasp of those arguments and I find them wholly
| lacking. A lot of it comes down to things their parents
| taught them and their inability to get rid of their deep
| seated beliefs about the nature of existence.
| fipar wrote:
| We agree on the meaning then! :) This reminded me of the
| intro to "A universe from nothing", where the author says
| (paraphrasing) "why is there life is the wrong question,
| but we can try to answer how is there life?"
| seti0Cha wrote:
| Can you elaborate on what is meant by "the wrong
| question"?
| fipar wrote:
| I agree with this answer:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31436469
|
| I also wanted to add that it's not that I think it is
| wrong to ask such questions, only that I think they're
| wrong when considered from within our system of
| knowledge, so I find them unanswerable.
|
| Kind of how like "what kind of food does that digital
| computer like?" is a wrong question.
| v-erne wrote:
| Not OP, but I think I can add my 2c here.
|
| It means (pun intended) that the meaning is not self
| sustaining term in our reality - there is no absolute
| meaning outside of our perception. There is only relative
| meaning (as in what kind of meaning my perception assigns
| to things that can be observed by me - simply put - we
| create our own meaning).
|
| It can be simplified further to there is no meaning or
| the meaning does not exist but in my opinion this is
| oversimplification and reeks of nihilism.
|
| So if You look at things from the point of view described
| above the "why" question (which can be paraphrased to
| "what is the meaning") is wrong.
| Guest19023892 wrote:
| > "Why" we exist is coincidence and millions of years of
| happy little evolutionary experiments blindly conducted
| by nature.
|
| I'm not religious either, but I always find this hard to
| believe. What are the odds nature happened to provide all
| the building blocks for us to be here to question our
| existence? It seems far more likely that (i) nothing
| would exist, (ii) the universe wouldn't have the right
| combination of properties and forces to maintain its own
| existence, or (iii) it would be a boring universe filled
| with a couple of basic elements capable of producing
| nothing of interest. Instead, we have complex life and
| we're here building iPhones and spaceships.
|
| For that reason I can't believe there's a single universe
| and through coincidence it happened to contain everything
| needed for life. Even if we go with the multiverse theory
| and a near infinite number of universes, I still find it
| difficult to believe. You can argue the universe is
| filled with a bunch of garbage and we're assigning
| meaning and value to that garbage because it's us, and we
| want to feel important. However, I really don't feel like
| anything (and certainly not something as complex as us)
| should exist in the first place. I want to say it's too
| much of a coincidence to happen by chance, but at the
| same time, I don't have a better answer as to why we're
| here.
| jlongr wrote:
| Infinitesimally low probability doesn't imply
| impossibility. If the event is in the probability space
| then it can certainly happen, no matter how serendipitous
| we may find it.
|
| What is so remarkable about the iPhone or the spaceship?
| Why is it worthy of note when compared to any other
| phenomena in the universe? What brings you to make a
| distinction between a live human body and an inanimate
| celestial body?
| Guest19023892 wrote:
| > What is so remarkable about the iPhone or the
| spaceship? What brings you to make a distinction between
| a "live" human body and an "inanimate" celestial body?
|
| I'm not trying to say that humans are more important or
| meaningful than a rock. I agree with you that nothing
| inherently has meaning and it's an attribute we create
| and assign. I'm only saying that we're intelligent beings
| that are capable of some rather advanced tasks, such as
| creating a iPhone. In my opinion, it seems far less
| likely for us to exist than either nothing, or a simpler
| universe without us.
|
| Yes, it's not impossible, just like I could throw a
| handful of sand in that air that falls to the ground and
| happens to write the story of my life. It's so unlikely
| though that I can't help but wonder if it wasn't just
| chance that we're here.
| bitexploder wrote:
| I think you are struggling with something I thought a lot
| about too. It is difficult for our brains to actually
| internalize the /immense/ amount of time evolutionary
| processes have been happening. It is so long and vast and
| our brains are barely good with comprehending hours and
| days. It is a mind bogglingly loooong time. Like really,
| really, really long. A lot can happen in a few billion
| years :)
| fleddr wrote:
| The meaning of life is to reproduce, which implies to
| survive until that age at least. Without this, there
| would be no continuous life and the "meaning" question
| cannot even be asked, as it's a question asked by living
| things. Or only one living thing that we know of.
|
| The why question has no answer nor will it ever have an
| answer. Life doesn't need justification or orchestration.
| It's a freak accident of molecules. It could have never
| happened and it can end by means of a disaster and the
| universe will happily continue without it.
|
| As to what a human can/should to with their life other
| than not dying and trying to reproduce, that's an
| entirely cultural question. Cultural is a fancy word for:
| we made it up.
| projektfu wrote:
| Can you be a little more specific?
| igorkraw wrote:
| I'm not against religion, but you just want to add you don't
| _need_ religion to get what I think is the good core of
| religions: healing stories and narratives, texts, mantras,
| rituals that help you in the moment, a community which shares
| your perspective and in the end, an explanation for existential
| dread, horrible things happenings and a way to _get meaning_.
|
| You can find it in humanism, you can find it in secular
| philosophy, you can get therapy, you can find it in social
| political communities, it's in many places. You can even get
| some old bearded dude tell you what to do if that's what you
| need.
|
| Religion is just one way to have faith.
| mantas wrote:
| The difference is that religion is usually a known & tried
| way to run a society. It may be not perfect, but otherwise
| old religions wouldn't survive.
|
| Meanwhile many modern replacements usually don't have any
| longevity. Maybe one of them will survive but only time will
| tell.
| pixl97 wrote:
| I thinking you're confusing causality here.
|
| The vast majority have staying power because of two primary
| things. Have children, teach those children your religion.
| In the days before mass education and when huge numbers of
| children died in early age making this a memnatic was an
| important way for societal continuation.
|
| This says nothing about it's continued usefulness after a
| paradigm shift.
| mantas wrote:
| There's no paradigm shift yet. Procreation is still
| necessary for societal continuation as long as BigTech
| can't print babies out of nothing.
| SnowHill9902 wrote:
| Sure. Religion is a framework that you have to accept. There
| may be other perfectly valid frameworks, no doubt.
| loudmax wrote:
| Islam also has significant things to say on the issue. Hinduism
| and Buddhism likely have insights as well.
|
| Zoroastrianism may also have something to offer here. Maybe
| it's time to revive it.
| fartcannon wrote:
| Zoroastrianism is still practiced. I met one just the other
| day. A quick google backs up your point though, there might
| only be a couple hundred thousand left.
| SnowHill9902 wrote:
| It's possible. I only mention what I'm familiar with.
| misiti3780 wrote:
| christianity is most certainly not the solution, therapy is
| tonyarkles wrote:
| I'm going to start by absolutely agreeing with you on the
| second half: I have had direct personal contact with a number
| of addicts over the years, and in virtually all cases it
| started (and generally continued to be) as a way to escape or
| numb some kind of unaddressed trauma or other emotional pain.
| Victims of (childhood or adult) abuse, parental rejection for
| whatever reason, etc. Additionally, people who I wouldn't
| categorize as addicts but rather as... acute substance
| abusers. The people who don't drink all week but go to the
| bar with some friends and end up drinking a dozen beer.
|
| Therapy has changed a lot of people around me's lives for the
| better. Indisputably. I have seen 20-year alcoholics change
| virtually overnight when their abusers are finally caught and
| the addict-victim goes and talks it through with a therapist.
|
| Where I'm going to disagree, though, is that this is a black
| and white "Christianity or therapy" issue. I'm coming at this
| pragmatically; I haven't been to church in almost 20 years
| now and religion is virtually non-existent in my life.
| There's two things, though, with religion in general that can
| be hugely useful for someone struggling with addiction and/or
| substance abuse:
|
| - Therapy-like religious guidance. Many denominations of
| Christianity (and other religions, but I am not particularly
| familiar with the exact customs) encourage you to share your
| burdens with either the leadership or broader community.
|
| - Community itself. Beyond the primary "you are destroying
| your body" issues with addiction, one of the worst secondary
| effects is the social effects. When you have a substance
| abuse problem, "ordinary" people will start to distance from
| you. This can either end up with you just isolating from the
| world and getting lonelier (amplifying the problem) or
| seeking community with whoever you can find who won't reject
| you (other people with substance abuse problems... amplifying
| the problem)
|
| Religion can provide these things and while it's not for me,
| I have a hard time dismissing it outright. Especially since
| we have, as society has become more secular, mostly failed at
| establishing accessible community institutions that provide
| these things. One of the most interesting things to me is
| that almost every other community is generally focused around
| either specific activities (eg a rock climbing gym, martial
| arts, bird watching, knitting) or specific professions (eg
| software developer meet-ups). Church is one of the few places
| in the world that I'm likely to encounter a very broad cross-
| section of society.
|
| That all being said, quality varies dramatically. There are
| some churches that are, to me, completely toxic and have
| strayed far from "bringing light into this world".
|
| YMMV, but it works for some people and provides exactly what
| they need to heal.
| misiti3780 wrote:
| I have many family and friends that are christians, and was
| raised christian. It's a full fledged government-subsidized
| cult, maybe a benign cult, but a cult nonetheless.
| tonyarkles wrote:
| I think you'll find that that varies dramatically from
| denomination to denomination. When I was a kid, my
| grandparents and parents took us to a Southern Baptist
| church. I agree, 100%, and I'm not even sure that I'd
| qualify that with the word "benign" :)
|
| In university, I dated a Lutheran (in Canada, there's two
| "sub-Lutheran" organizations, she was a part of the "more
| welcoming one") and it was a night and day difference.
| Not to go too far into theology, but these folks were
| some of the most "Christ-like" folks I have ever met.
| They really embodied the "be good to each other" concepts
| and strongly rejected the more evangelical/recruiting
| position that many churches take; their philosophy was
| "be good people, treat others kindly, feel free to have a
| conversation about your religion if someone asks, but
| don't try to guilt/shame/whatever, just be a good
| person."
|
| I'm actually surprised this morning to be defending
| churches somewhat. It's a tragedy: the worst kind of
| Christians, to me, are also the most prominent and vocal.
| From my own understanding of the Bible and basic
| theology, I absolutely agree that many denominations are
| cult-like and have also lost their way from the teachings
| they purport to embody.
|
| Meanwhile there's folks like the Lutherans I hung out
| with who, for lack of a better turn of phrase, are
| actually bringing light into the world. These folks get
| painted with the same brush as the... crazies.
| misiti3780 wrote:
| my experience is with Catholicism. you dont have to do
| too much research to see where that went wrong.
| WHA8m wrote:
| No need for
|
| > Knowing that HN is generally against it, I say it anyway
|
| I am actually on the contrarian side of you, but thanks for
| putting you out there. I understand and respect your point and
| everything, but there is one thing, that I want to put out
| regarding what you said. To state the following, is quite
| problematic:
|
| > Religious scholars have actually been the best psychologists
| but are generally dismissed by non-believers.
|
| Without going into detail, for every profession, there are
| people who are good and bad at it. This has nothing to do with
| any background or anything. The difference with psychologists
| and priests/ missionaries/ etc. is, that one is certified and
| the other is not necessarily certified. This makes a huge
| difference in liability of the term/ role and it's rather
| dangerous to put them in the same bag. And I don't think to
| make this distinction is not dismissive.
| jstummbillig wrote:
| > Religious scholars have actually been the best psychologists
| but are generally dismissed by non-believers.
|
| Citation not required, as long as you believe, assumedly?
| boppo1 wrote:
| How do I get the psychological benefits without having belief?
| Let me lay a story on you:
|
| I fell in love with this girl who I had known on/off for a long
| time. I found out she was an escort (quietly but distinctly
| confirmed payment-for-sex) in her spare time (she was a student
| when this all happened). This was really upsetting and had me
| very distraught. I simultaneously could see a life with her,
| but also felt disgusted at the escorting.
|
| I wished I could speak with my grandfather about it. I knew
| he'd know what to tell me. But he had recently passed away.
| "Well, what did I like about Grandpa? Could I find a
| substitute? I need like, an old person who has reliable wisdom
| and experience, not just some wino who has hung on. Why isn't
| this a thing? An old person a community can approach for advice
| on..."
|
| "Oh I think I need a priest."
|
| When I went looking for one though, it was all about accepting
| Jesus into my heart and spiritual learnings and miracles that I
| must accept literally happened, etc. Real hard to find the "old
| wise person who can help me navigate this thing".
| starwind wrote:
| There's this Western conception of Buddhism that stripes away
| a lot of the religious beliefs--Siddhartha wasn't divine at
| all, there is no Amitabha, Ksitigarbha is a folk tale. The
| emphasis is all on practice. Meditation, the 4 noble truths,
| Middle Way, etc.
|
| This doesn't represent true Buddhism like Asians would
| recognize it, but I think it does highlight how you can build
| a practice and adopt the world outlook without the
| supernatural.
|
| A low-level Zen inspired practice may be what you're looking
| for
| sidibe wrote:
| I've never had anything against religion and know it is good
| for my family but there's just no way I'll ever get over my
| skepticism so it's not a choice. I think most nonreligious
| people are the same
| HideousKojima wrote:
| >I think most nonreligious people are the same.
|
| Having spent two years as a missionary in a majority atheist
| country (the Czech Republic) I'd have to say that wasn't my
| experience. For most Czechs, it seemed to be more of a
| general apathy about religion and the idea of God, not any
| serious skepticism or an active choice not to believe.
| kanonieer wrote:
| > Religious scholars have actually been the best psychologists
|
| Any sources that will back this claim? Oh wait, you don't need
| facts. Do you give this sort of unsolicited religious advice to
| everyone or do you specifically choose people who are troubled?
| AussieWog93 wrote:
| >Any sources that will back this claim? Oh wait, you don't
| need facts. Do you give this sort of unsolicited religious
| advice to everyone or do you specifically choose people who
| are troubled?
|
| I mean, there's a fairly strong Darwinistic argument for the
| validity of certain religions. Very few belief systems have
| survived a hostile environment for anywhere near as long as
| the big religions.
|
| If religious belief systems are "wrong" (in the sense of
| being useful for navigating the world, not in the sense of
| satisfying certain conditions of symbolic logic and
| reasoning), then why have these religions triumphed over
| secularism time and time again?
|
| I'd still consider myself an atheist, but even then I'd be
| careful to be so dismissive of belief systems that have
| proven themselves over the course of millennia to be
| incredibly powerful, enlightening and enriching.
| WHA8m wrote:
| After reading through all the Dune books, I built up quite
| some awe for the catholic church. I'm not a believer, but
| this is fascinating how such an institution can survive for
| such a long time. I'm really wondering what happed behind
| closed doors or just things that we don't know that they
| pulled off to keep power. This is not meant as a critique.
| drcongo wrote:
| > _why have these religions triumphed over secularism time
| and time again_
|
| I'm intrigued to understand your definition of "triumphed",
| as given the rest of the post I'm assuming you're not
| referring to the genocide of non-believers, which is, of
| course, precisely how the major religions achieved such
| longevity.
| moolcool wrote:
| > I mean, there's a fairly strong Darwinistic argument for
| the validity of certain religions
|
| I always find it ironic when the "Facts and Reason" branch
| of atheism pretends that we would all be driving flying
| cars in a peaceful utopia if it weren't for pesky religion.
| paskozdilar wrote:
| Just because something is good for the group, doesn't mean
| it's good for an individual.
| engineer_22 wrote:
| That's a very Christian idea. Christianity is (was) the
| religion of slaves, and outcasts. The whole ethic is that
| the individual is divinely (infinitely) valuable, despite
| circumstances on earth.
|
| It doesn't take much of a leap to go from "I am valuable
| [because G-d says so]", to "I deserve to be equal to my
| fellow man, free to make my own choices".
| ryandrake wrote:
| > If religious belief systems are "wrong" (in the sense of
| being useful for navigating the world, not in the sense of
| satisfying certain conditions of symbolic logic and
| reasoning), then why have these religions triumphed over
| secularism time and time again?
|
| To be fair, a lot of them spread by the sword. Convert or
| we kill your tribe. Some of them explicitly call out in
| their texts that it's OK to forcibly convert or murder non-
| believers, an attribute which is, I'm sure, a helpful
| "evolutionary gene" for the religion's spread. There are
| also religions with non-violent, but still coercive
| conversion, where there are non-death-related social
| consequences for nonbelievers.
| SnowHill9902 wrote:
| If you read psychological works by ancient religious scholars
| you'll understand. They delve extremely deeply and
| insightfully inside one's soul. True: they didn't use Chi-
| squared tests so you'll not find that. But have you actually
| read anything of this?
| pixl97 wrote:
| You're making an assumption that 'they understood'. Humans
| have a lot of insight, but at the end of the day a deep
| understanding of everything is mathematically impossible.
|
| How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Nihilism.
| bogdanoff_2 wrote:
| >psychological works by ancient religious scholars
|
| Could you recommend some?
| SnowHill9902 wrote:
| I don't know your background but the Midrash.
| 4gotunameagain wrote:
| Weird approach to attack the substance of this sentence,
| since psychology is the most vague of sciences.
| WHA8m wrote:
| Depends on how you understand 'science'. I wouldn't
| describe empirical science as 'vague'. It doesn't aim for
| the core of a thing like other fields do. I mean, things
| are changing, but the goal for most psychologists is to
| help people.
| Sholmesy wrote:
| To be fair, the parent made the claim.
|
| Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and all
| that.
| kanonieer wrote:
| There's no substance in the sentence I quoted. That's what
| I pointed out. I haven't expressed any opinions regarding
| psychology.
|
| > since psychology is the most vague of sciences
|
| But since you make this claim, we can talk about it. So
| what's your advice? See religious scholars instead of board
| certified psychologists?
| 4gotunameagain wrote:
| My advice is to keep an open mind to the possibility of
| someone having some level of wisdom without having an
| official degree(tm)
|
| And yes, I used the word wisdom on purpose :)
| bowsamic wrote:
| Unnecessarily aggressive and rude. This just reads like you
| feel superior to religious people
| kanonieer wrote:
| I have no issues with religious people. I do however have
| issues with "missionary" types popping up around people who
| are vulnerable, trying to convince them with completely
| baseless claims of wellness.
| AussieWog93 wrote:
| Do you have a problem with secular psychologists offering
| help to people in need?
|
| People that have gone through horrible circumstances can,
| and often do, benefit greatly from the moral certainty
| that religion provides.
| pixl97 wrote:
| Which morality is that?
|
| Individuals _love_ to look at individual bits of morality
| in said books in a choose your own adventure exploration.
| As much as the moral certainty says be nice to others, it
| will also contain many bits that are highly questionable
| and would deeply conflict with others views.
|
| In general secular psychologists don't come with the
| violent historical baggage that religions do.
| AussieWog93 wrote:
| >Which morality is that?
|
| Who cares? It gets drug addicts clean and criminals
| reformed.
| netizen-936824 wrote:
| Secular psychologists don't ask you to believe in deities
| for them to work
| elteto wrote:
| There is no more moral certainty in religion than on the
| Sunday paper.
| SnowHill9902 wrote:
| My comment was in no way missionary. In fact I didn't
| even mention one specific religion and suggested that you
| investigate your ancestors instead and find your path.
| _gabe_ wrote:
| Considering the vast majority of people who have overcome
| addictions with the help of religion and a religious
| community, "completely baseless claims of wellness" is
| pretty exaggerated no?
| confidantlake wrote:
| Any citation on the vast majority of people who have
| overcome convictions have done it with religion? I don't
| think court ordered AA really counts.
| _gabe_ wrote:
| This seems pretty interesting
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6759672/ . I
| didn't read the full paper, but based off the
| introduction it seems to be a study of how religion helps
| people overcome addition.
| confidantlake wrote:
| The study was done by someone from the Institute for
| Studies of Religion. I am not convinced.
| ycombinete wrote:
| It makes him sound like a 16 year old who just smoked his
| first Christopher Hitchens.
| d_tr wrote:
| They are just stating their opinion in an 100% neutral way.
| You are free to ignore it. People give "unsolicited advice"
| here all the time. It is a forum where people post things for
| others to read. Why do people get so easily upset whenever
| the word "religion" is displayed, heard or even implied?
| WHA8m wrote:
| Religion is quite a stirring theme, don't you think? I try
| really hard to avoid getting triggered (meant in a neutral
| way). It's easy to repress something, but that's not the
| point - people turn cynical when this happens and it just
| postpones the problem. One have to go deeper to really let
| go.
| aordano wrote:
| Religious beliefes provide a strong moral compass as a semi-
| coherent set that lets you define stances about a lot of things
| in your life without having to gs through the hassle and
| difficulties of building them. As long as it's a serious belief
| and adherence to the provided guidelines and not just posturing
| used to justify decadent conducts.
|
| I am not religious and personally i think is best to develop
| this on your own than taking a prepackaged system, but the
| utility and practicality of having ssmething already done and
| battle-tested is undeniable.
|
| Just like you don't need to reinvent the wheel and write a
| complex library on your own when there's one available,
| sometimes is best to just use a prepackaged beliefs set and
| moral system to follow.
|
| Many people are even unable to produce that on their own and
| epd up disparaged, aimless, living their lives without any
| understanding of right, wrong, good, bad, moral, immoral.
|
| For what religions are and what they do provide, i personally
| think some branches of buddhism are better, like the Sokka
| Gakkai International's approach provides.
|
| I don't agree with the sentence that religious scholars are the
| best psychologists because they only can provide guidance
| inside what fits this prepackaged framework-for-living they
| adopted, and in many many cases (i.e. mentall illnesses, deep
| issues, moral hardship in grey areas, etc) they are unable to
| effectively help in any significant way.
|
| Good news is that psychology isn't incompatible with religion
| and both can coexist peacefully, and one can get the best of
| both worlds wathout thinking one is best; they work in
| different ways and provide different things, and IMO they
| aren't directly comparable, as a psychologist cannot help you
| very well in terms of religion, and a religious scholar cannot
| help you very well in terms of psychology (except for the
| thinfs that fit witin the religious framework chosen).
|
| So all in all, i agree that religion as a valid choice and
| should be part of discourse, as sometimes it can very well be
| the best course of action.
|
| Just don't agree with throwing blanket statements of what's
| best or not in a world as plastic and complex as the one we
| live in.
| FrankyHollywood wrote:
| The bible is a collection of many books and resources by
| various authors. It contains valuable ideas and experience
| which have survived the centuries. Many religious people
| however like it to be a 'single black & white truth of the all-
| mighty invisible ghost who says you are a guilty person'.
|
| For me the bible is the same as any other (old) book where
| people write about their life experience. A good example is
| 'Meditations' by Marcus Aurelius. There is a lot of wisdom in
| it, and I have read it more than once over the years. It makes
| you reflect on your own life and decisions you make.
| spoiler wrote:
| An alternate to religion is Meditation. IMO, a lot of spiritual
| practices share very similar mental mechanics (eg mantras and
| prayers, various forms of fasting, support networks, etc)
| Scarblac wrote:
| > It's always best to find your own path according to the
| religion of your parents and environment.
|
| That ship sailed a while ago, my parents aren't religious, and
| I don't know any religious people.
| paskozdilar wrote:
| The problem I have with religion is the focus on "removing the
| doubt", which I strongly disagree with - doubting a god's
| existance is a major no-no in most popular religions. And as
| soon as you remove the doubt ban, you don't really have a
| religion anymore, but a philosophy.
|
| So I'd personally recommend philosophy to people, instead of
| religion. Bertrand Russell (also known for his mathematical
| work) is an excellent place to start.
|
| EDIT: For those who disagree, I'd recommend a Russell's essay
| "Why I Am Not A Christian" [0]. It is quite short and readable.
|
| https://users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html
| refurb wrote:
| I mean a big chunk of Christian teaching is about faith. It's
| not like Christianity teaches "you believe in god? Good, let
| move on to other stuff now".
| christophilus wrote:
| That's kind of a strawman. Serious Catholic thought (John of
| the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Pope Benedict, etc) doesn't try
| to "remove the doubt" at all. I highly recommend Ratzinger /
| Benedict for modern text, and the great contemplatives for
| non-modern texts. They grapple with doubt and all other
| tricky subjects head on, and have a broad (and in my opinion
| accurate and subtle) view of the journey of life.
| NoGravitas wrote:
| I was also going to recommend John of the Cross. There's
| also a whole tradition of apophatic (negative) theology,
| and an associated tradition of darkness mysticism (e.g.
| Pseudo-Dionysius). That your doubts are founded in the
| reality that God is unknowable-as-such, and even
| "existence" may be an invalid concept to apply to the
| divine.
| christophilus wrote:
| In that vein, but I've been reading a book that
| synthesizes John and Teresa and the gospels. It had a few
| gems that stood out to me recently. On the importance of
| voiding oneself of all: "He is not only beyond all
| things, but boundlessly beyond them. Created realities
| are... more unlike God than like Him.... However
| impressive may be one's knowledge or feeling of God, that
| knowledge or feeling will have no resemblance to God and
| amount to very little."
| moolcool wrote:
| > The problem I have with religion is the focus on "removing
| the doubt", which I strongly disagree with
|
| This isn't the case as often as you might think. Consider
| religions like Unitarianism, for example. You can also make a
| strong case that the doubt is baked foundationally into
| Christianity itself-- consider Zizek's readings of Chesterton
| and Hegel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEuY46p5yH4
|
| > And as soon as you remove the doubt ban, you don't really
| have a religion anymore, but a philosophy
|
| Lots of philosophers were/are extremely religious
| bin_bash wrote:
| Buddhism encourages doubt (in most lineages). There is a
| sutta where the Buddha said:
|
| > "You have a right to be confused. This is a confusing
| situation. Do not take anything on trust merely because it
| has passed down through tradition, or because your teachers
| say it, or because your elders have taught you, or because
| it's written in some famous scripture. When you have seen it
| and experienced it for yourself to be right and true, then
| you can accept it."
| paskozdilar wrote:
| I have had some limited exposure to Buddhism, but I very
| much like what I've read. Buddhism seems to focus more on
| human-as-is and making peace with existence, instead of
| human-as-should-be and making war with existence, as, for
| example, Christianity does - by the cardinal sin, the human
| is sinful through its _very existence_.
| alfor wrote:
| The cardinal sin represent the awakening of the human
| mind, we no longer live in the moment, we can imagine the
| future and that make us powerful but also miserable (we
| can suffer from problems we imagine in the future)
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ifi5KkXig3s
| paskozdilar wrote:
| There is an interpretation that disagrees with what I
| said, I know. Whatever I say, there will be an
| interpretation out there that disagrees with what I said.
| bin_bash wrote:
| Even in Buddhism. I find pretty much anytime I say
| anything about it online I have to add "in most lineages"
| because there are certainly dogmatic ones.
| VoodooJuJu wrote:
| >recommend philosophy to people, instead of religion
|
| Religion _is_ philosophy, plus ritual and aesthetics. It 's
| the set of philosophies that have survived the ravages of
| time. It's a set of philosophies that are so useful to live
| by, that these philosophies have survived through books and
| rituals for millennia. Or put another way, these philosophies
| are so incredibly effective, that people are surviving today
| _precisely because they 've lived by those philosophies_, and
| the only reason we know of these philosophies is because they
| are survived by, and helped to survive, the people who've
| passed and continue to pass them down to others.
|
| There existed philosophies you've never heard of, that are
| dead, because they died with the people who've followed them.
| Is it just chance? Is it because the surviving philosophies
| are better? Who knows. But if you're a betting man, you
| should bet on those surviving philosophies being actually
| better, more useful, more conducive to survival.
|
| >the focus on "removing the doubt"
|
| I think this is a focus exclusive to "nu-Christian"
| Anglosphere denominations, primarily American ones, and their
| focus is made a spectacle of because: (1) their focus is
| understandably cringe and the outrage is entertaining (2) the
| spectacle is used as a tool to de-legitimize religion as a
| whole, especially Christianity.
| paskozdilar wrote:
| > There existed philosophies you've never heard of, that
| are dead, because they died with the people who've followed
| them. Is it just chance?
|
| Nope. Religion tends to bring people together, often making
| them much more powerful as a group. But to me, it's just
| not worth selling out.
|
| > I think this is a focus exclusive to "nu-Christian"
| Anglosphere denominations
|
| I don't think that is the case. John 14:6 says:
| "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man comes to
| the Father but by me"
|
| So basically, if you don't believe in Jesus, you can't go
| to heaven. If that's not an effort to restrict doubt, then
| what is?
| _gabe_ wrote:
| This is pretty disingenuous don't you think? In the same
| book a few chapters later we read:
|
| > Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not
| with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told
| him, "We have seen the Lord." But he said to them,
| "Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and
| place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my
| hand into his side, I will never believe." John 20:24-25
|
| If that's not encouraging engaging with doubt I don't
| know what is.
|
| > If that's not an effort to restrict doubt, then what
| is?
|
| I can tell you that 1 + 1 = 2 and you can still doubt me.
| Just because you doubt me it doesn't make that statement
| any less true. Also, me stating that fact isn't me
| restricting doubt, it's just me stating a fact. If Jesus
| was God, and what He says here is true, He's stating a
| fact. You can choose to believe or not to believe, or
| doubt or not to doubt.
| alfor wrote:
| But what is 'I' in this sentence?
|
| Personally I see it a 'truth' like in scientific truth
| and personal integrity.
|
| Imagine Jesus as the incarnation of the best possible
| person. I you where to try to based your actions in a
| similar way, what would you do?
|
| "No man comes to the Father but by me":
|
| You won't be the best version of yourself by chasing any
| other things (fame, money, pleasure, etc)
|
| I too was disgusted by the first degree interpretation
| (obviously false) but I now discover a second degree
| reading that explain our human condition and most of our
| problems.
|
| Look into Peterson Biblical lecture on Youtube if you
| want to see a psychological way of looking at the bible.
| paskozdilar wrote:
| One thing I dislike about Christianity in particular is
| how malleable to interpretation it is, making any kind of
| discussion with a Christian tedious. No matter what part
| of Bible you try to argue with, a Christian will always
| be able to say: "But that's not the _real_ meaning! The
| real meaning is [thing I pulled out of thin air] ",
| rendering your words moot, without actually engaging in
| your argument at all.
|
| I still can't figure out how to deal with it, which is
| why I usually refrain from arguing with religious people.
| Afterall, when it comes to the big questions (like, is
| there a god), neither one of us can bring anything to the
| table - it's impossible to know by definition. And since
| all religious teachings are based on the existence of a
| god, there is no way to convince anyone of anything
| without first proving the unprovable. It's like two
| completely different sets of axioms - of course the
| conclusions are gonna be different, and the concept of
| axioms being "right" or "wrong" is meaningless by itself.
| alfor wrote:
| I see it as a fusion of the campfire stories that humans
| have told themselves over thousand of years.
|
| The fact that it was written in a book gave it incredible
| power and have allow our civilisation to exist and
| science to be developed but also removed much of the
| evolutions of the stories.
|
| Now that our world change so fast the stories seems very
| outdated to our modern mind but most of them speak about
| a deep human conditions and traps we feel into multiple
| times.
|
| It hard to speak to christians as most see it a first
| level reading (literally true) but most people are not
| ready to go into deep analysis of meaning, they need a
| story to unite them, to show them a way to a good life
| and so it was for all people 200 years ago.
|
| Without those stories people put other things in its
| place (false idols) like money, pleasure, diversity and
| equity, communism, fascism, etc.
|
| To the question is there a God, the God of the bible is a
| mix of the natural environment (god of wind, god of the
| sun, etc) and the human civilisation 'thou shall not
| kill' if you kill, God will be angry: you are going to
| have a bad time (at the hands of other humans)
|
| If you have the time, the Peterson lectures gave me a way
| to understand it that make sense to me (no bearded
| magician in the sky)
| paskozdilar wrote:
| Interesting perspective. I'll check the lectures out - I
| have listened to Jordan Peterson before and I like the
| way he thinks and presents things.
| fipar wrote:
| > There existed philosophies you've never heard of, that
| are dead, because they died with the people who've followed
| them. Is it just chance? Is it because the surviving
| philosophies are better? Who knows. But if you're a betting
| man, you should bet on those surviving philosophies being
| actually better, more useful, more conducive to survival.
|
| I get what you're saying but to offer another perspective,
| informed by the work of Rober Pirsig as presented in his
| second book 'Lila': I think those religions/philosophies
| you mention are an organism of their own, with humans as
| their hardware. Are they really more useful for any given
| human? (certainly some are not, if we choose a human who's
| an outlier, a 'black sheep', so to speak) Or ar they useful
| and more conductive to the survival of the
| religion/philosophy itself?
|
| I think it's a struggle between intellect (the individual)
| and culture (religion, country, a political party, etc.).
| DocTomoe wrote:
| That's why many of us opt for eastern traditions - which are
| generally pretty good at separating the philosophical aspects
| from the belief aspects.
| [deleted]
| seti0Cha wrote:
| That's only true on the folk-religion side of things. I can't
| speak to other faiths, but serious Christian thought has
| always engaged with doubt.
| treeman79 wrote:
| 12 years of growing up in Christian schools. Doubt came up
| a lot. Depended on the speaker too. Many would talk about
| their struggles. Times when they got angry at God, or fell
| away. Or there reasoning on why God exists.
|
| One constant teaching was that Christianity is not a
| religion. But about forming a relationship with God through
| Christ.
| nicoburns wrote:
| > One constant teaching was that Christianity is not a
| religion. But about forming a relationship with God
| through Christ.
|
| How can one even begin to attempt that task if one truly
| doubts that God exists? Also, is believing a God of some
| sort not exactly what a religion is?
| treeman79 wrote:
| Religion is a set of rules and traditions. Perform 50
| hail marries. Light 50 candles. Only eat X on whatever
| day.
|
| A relationship is trying to understand God. What he
| means. How you can serve him. What kind of life Christ
| lived. How to live as an example to others.
|
| Everyone has doubts. Most of my teachers would talk about
| times that they struggled.
|
| It takes a lot of faith to believe that there is an all
| powerful God. that loves you for you.
|
| It also takes faith to believe that universe popped out
| of nothing, the conditions for life happened to be just
| right, and that it's also meaningless.
|
| Maybe Christians are wrong. But maybe not. Worse that
| happens is people were nicer to each other for awhile.
| The other is that you spend eternity in Heaven.
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| A relationship with a person you cannot see, touch, feel,
| hear, or taste.
|
| Who revealed themselves directly only before the
| enlightenment, and thereafter must be experienced only in
| ones mind, testimony from those long dead, or by the
| evidence of supposed creation.
| nicoburns wrote:
| > It takes a lot of faith to believe that there is an all
| powerful God. that loves you for you.
|
| I feel like I kind of get what you're saying. But it
| seems to even have this perspective that one ought to try
| to believe in God, to be motivated to struggle, one
| already has to accept religious teachings of some kind.
|
| I don't struggle to believe that the universe popped out
| of nothing, I very easily and without any effort on my
| part maintain the belief that it's pretty much impossible
| for us to know where the universe came from and that it's
| probably not worth expending too much effort worrying
| about it. I'd see having to make an effort to believe
| something somewhat of a red flag regarding the validity
| of that belief.
|
| > Worse that happens is people were nicer to each other
| for awhile. The other is that you spend eternity in
| Heaven.
|
| I mean, some religious people are nice to each other.
| Others are downright nasty and make life very difficult
| for people who don't fit into their worldview (for
| example because they're gay). And presumably the worst
| case is that there is in fact a God who happens to take
| the opposite view on morality to the Christian one and
| thus Christians end up spending an eternity in Hell. As
| far as I can that's no less likely than there being a
| Christian God.
| _gabe_ wrote:
| I was just about to say the same thing. Thomas is the first
| person who comes to mind. He said he wouldn't believe Jesus
| rose from the dead unless he saw him and his scars. Job is
| an entire book about wrestling with God. It's all about why
| would a good God allow all this suffering? All his friends
| tell him to just denounce his faith and move on with life.
| And several of the people throughout the Bible don't doubt
| that God exists, but they do doubt that He will do what He
| promises.
|
| So there are definitely religions that encourage doubting
| whether God exists. Eventually you have to come to some
| sort of immovable mover. Whether that's the Big Bang or
| God, so there's nothing inherently illogical about
| believing in something that is timeless and has always
| existed.
| HideousKojima wrote:
| One of the most famous examples being C.S. Lewis himself,
| his book _A Grief Observed_ (written after his wife passed)
| being one of the most clear examples of it. On a slightly
| related note, there 's an excellent film adaptation about
| C.S. Lewis's relationship with his wife called
| _Shadowlands_ , starring Anthony Hopkins. Amazing that the
| man who played Hannibal Lecter could also portray the most
| famous Christian thinker of the 20th century so well.
| Veen wrote:
| I'll second that recommendation. Shadowlands is a superb
| film. It's very much worth watching even if you have
| little sympathy with Lewis's religious views.
| klik99 wrote:
| Some of my favorite Christian works are all about doubt,
| but the conclusion tends to be faith is the only way. The
| Catholic priest in the movie may raise his hands during the
| thunderstorm and shout angrily at God to show himself, but
| what saves him is the "leap of faith" where he realizes
| that God will never give you proof of his existance - it's
| more sophisticated, but it's still the folksy blind faith.
|
| Many Christians believe that you must believe in Jesus to
| get into heaven. I prefer what Proust said (paraphrasing -
| the actual quote I can't find and is far more beautiful):
| "Who is more likely to get into heaven - someone who
| believes in god, despises and judges the world and mankind
| or someone who loves all of gods creations without
| judgement but doesn't believe in him?" I refuse to think a
| loving god would make the litmus test such an arbitrary
| thing.
| alfor wrote:
| See 'faith' as believing in that doing the 'right' thing,
| when no one is looking, by your definition is the best
| way possible (no deceiving, lying and all other sins).
|
| You cannot have faith and despise the world, you are
| supposed to judges your failings first before judging
| others.
| SnowHill9902 wrote:
| Religion is a modern word. Religious people did not refer to
| them as religious before. It was all part of life itself.
| DocTomoe wrote:
| How modern is modern? I have sources back to at least the
| 1490s which clearly use the word 'religion' (and many more,
| earlier, sources that use the latin 'religionem') ...
| mmcdermott wrote:
| The word has been changing for a long time. For lack of a
| better way to put it, think of it as the difference
| between an insider's word and an outsiders. Older texts
| almost always have an implicit reference to a particular
| faith in it. A 16th writer who says "he is a religious
| man" means that "he is an observant $SECT". In modern
| uses, it almost always means "he believes in this class
| of beliefs and practices". The reason I refer to it as an
| outsiders term is that it groups together groups that
| don't generally think of themselves as one.
|
| Modern usages of the word "religion" group Christians and
| Muslims (for example), groups that would see themselves
| as distinct.
|
| Interestingly, you can see a bridge period of sorts. If
| you think back to characters in movies of the 30s and 40s
| saying "I am not a religious man, but..." or "I am not a
| praying man, but..." you can kind of see the shift. A
| little reference to the good standing meaning but also
| some of the outsider type frame.
| jjslocum3 wrote:
| >doubting a god's existance is a major no-no in most popular
| religions
|
| This is certainly not true of the Christianity that I've been
| witness to all my life. In those circles, doubt is a given -
| an intrinsic component of the inquisitive human mind - and
| doubt is basically the core of all faith. If there's no room
| for doubt, there's no room for faith.
| bowsamic wrote:
| Buddhism also has a well developed psychological system that
| everyone seems to ignore
| cies wrote:
| I truly think Buddhism has the best offer here on addictive
| behavior. Detachment is a main topic, their teaching can be
| consumed in "secular" way (with needed to believe in any
| unseen phenomena), the teaching does not place much outside
| of oneself.
| Jaruzel wrote:
| > _I recommend religion and religious teachings which address
| this and many other daily worldly issues perfectly._
|
| This advice simply doesn't work if the recipient is an atheist.
|
| To me, Religious texts are made up fiction that hold no more
| meaning in my world view than Harry Potter or Game of Thrones.
| If you read enough fiction on a shared topic, you'll be able to
| pull the same number of 'enlightening' quotes from those books
| as religious people can from their own sacred tomes.
|
| However, IF you are a religious person, and find meaning in
| your religious books, then take the win, and enjoy that path.
| It's just that it's not a path _everyone_ can take.
| Aunche wrote:
| IMO, one benefit of religion that is difficult to capture
| anywhere else is that it creates a mutually supportive
| community. I personally can't get over sacrificing my own
| intellectual honesty for the sake in group acceptance, but in
| most cases, I do think this is a trade off worth making.
| Secular Jews seem to be able to have it both ways, though I'm
| not sure this is something easily replicable.
| lethologica wrote:
| I've known plenty of people who get a ton of meaning out of
| fictional works too. Just because you view it as fictional
| doesn't mean it can't have meaning.
| dboreham wrote:
| > This advice simply doesn't work if the recipient is an
| atheist.
|
| Then try Buddhism? More of a philosophy than a religion, and
| seems to have hit on the idea thousands of years ago that
| most problems in humanity are to do with mental illness of
| one sort or another.
| annyeonghada wrote:
| Buddhism is definitely a religion with a specific
| epistemology, claims on the supernatural (karma, cycle of
| samsara), manifestations of the divine (Bodhisattva),
| rituals, chants and prayers. Some Buddhist sects can be
| pretty radical, even.
|
| Buddhism as conceptualized in the western world is a
| marketing strategy that appeals to people thanks to the
| fact the Buddhism is exotic, the same reason Christian
| symbolism is a la mode in Asia (just see how many anime
| have Christian themes). If you could repackage Christianity
| to convince these people that it is new, exotic and
| exciting they would convert immediately.
|
| By the way, there are philosophical traditions, both in
| Buddhism and Christianity, that reject any supernatural
| claim and see religion as a useful but not true moral
| framework, see
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism
|
| P.S.: I'm an atheist. I'm not defending a religion or
| another.
| Consultant32452 wrote:
| The difference between Harry Potter and most religious texts
| is that the religious texts are often the result of thousands
| of years of evolutionary processes which refine them, and the
| people who have followed them have survived/thrived.
|
| It doesn't matter if the Bible/Koran/whatever is a fact or
| not. Religious beliefs/texts are an extension of human
| evolution and should be seen that way. Questioning their
| wisdom in helping humans thrive is like questioning the value
| of arms.
| rajin444 wrote:
| This answer is on the right track. There will always be
| outliers, but most humans have a fundamental need for
| "religion".
|
| The west is in the process of creating a new one (modern
| liberal values), but as with most rewrites, you probably
| should have understood the existing solution before
| throwing it out.
| Karunamon wrote:
| A friend of mine stated this as such: "every human able
| to reason has a religion-shaped hole in them; and that
| spot will be filled with something whether or not the
| human expects it to or wants it to."
|
| I submit that plenty of religious thought patterns
| (things and systems you are not allowed to question the
| wisdom of, obsequious deference to authority, etc.) exist
| outside the halls of churches. PG's essay on heresy comes
| to mind.
| maxerickson wrote:
| Questioning specific things seems easy enough.
|
| Like proscriptions on pork or seafood; we have a pretty
| good understanding of the consequences of eating pork and
| don't necessarily have to rely on something that was a
| useful rule of thumb absent that knowledge.
| Consultant32452 wrote:
| Your response looks like the output of a poorly written
| shell script that prints meaningless fact checks when
| someone mentions religion.
|
| Did you also know the universe wasn't created in 6 days?
| v-erne wrote:
| >> often the result of thousands of years of evolutionary
| processes which refine them >> Religious beliefs/texts are
| an extension of human evolution and should be seen that
| way.
|
| If this is true, does it mean that churches all over the
| world did a big disservice to the holy books and stopped
| the evolution by creating institutions dedicated to
| preserve text of this books in unchanged form argumenting
| that those books literally are word of God and thus cannot
| be changed?
| Consultant32452 wrote:
| You might be aware of the fact that different
| factions/sects exist within the major religions, similar
| to how humans physically evolve separate traits. Some of
| those off-shoots will be more successful than others.
|
| I'm sure you have some great ideas about living. Let's
| check the reproductive rate of the people who follow your
| ideas in a thousand years.
| bin_bash wrote:
| I think it can be interesting to approach religious teachings
| from a perennialist mindset: what's common between all
| religions.
|
| There is a lot to learn about life and human nature in
| religion. You don't have to believe in an afterlife or
| practice dogma to get something out of it.
| klik99 wrote:
| I disagree - I do not believe in any organized religion but I
| do like the Bible - almost all of Western society is built on
| it so there is a power in the words as you're tapping into
| something fundamental that's been bounced around culture for
| centuries. I dip into it occasionally and find some passage
| that really speaks to me.
|
| Admittedly I do ignore parts of it - there's a lot of "wives
| should be obedient" stuff in there that has not aged well for
| instance - and I read it as God representing something like
| the Chinese Dao - IE the impersonal and immaterial laws of
| nature, the way that things unfold, and faith in God being an
| active version of the Stoic idea that you can't change the
| things you don't have control over, so just let it be.
| Clubber wrote:
| To me, Theology is really philosophy + God. That's kinda the
| beauty of it, you can interpret it however you like or
| however it fits you at the time. If you don't want the + God
| right now, just consider the philosophy.
|
| >Religious texts are made up fiction that hold no more
| meaning in my world view
|
| Plato's The Cave allegory is relevant, even though no one
| would ever live in a cave like that and it's obviously
| fiction. Some people treat the Bible as a historical text,
| but most don't. Some people believe the earth is flat too,
| there's always that 10-20%.
|
| Having said that, I tried reading the Bible but I couldn't
| get through all the begats. I do like hearing honest people
| discuss it though. Like anything, it can certainly be
| weaponized.
| sidibe wrote:
| I think philosophy without faith is nice but doesn't have
| the same benefits at all. I think what makes religious
| people happier is the strong sense of community and
| offloading some of their existential angst to a third
| party.
| zivkovicp wrote:
| I am also a non-believer, but I think there is room for
| religion even for those who have a difficult time with the
| "fairy tale" aspect of it. Personally, I do not, but I'm
| thinking about giving it a shot.
|
| The thing is that the stories in religious books help paint a
| picture of life and offer anecdotes on how one can navigate
| it. There is no need to look for enlightenment, just
| practical advice on how to deal with tough life situations
| and help you find motivation and strength to power through.
| Thousands of years of observing and documenting people's
| lives through stories and metaphors has value, even for us
| non-believers.
|
| I think you'd even be surprised how many people who regularly
| attend church services don't actually believe in the mystic
| aspect of it all; it's the community and guidance that have
| the most value to them.
| ryandrake wrote:
| You can pick and choose philosophy and morals from a
| religion (or multiple religions) without buying the whole
| farm. To me, this seems like the right way to go. Cherry
| pick the good stuff and ignore the cruel parts and weird,
| supernatural stuff.
|
| Church selection seems to play a big role. I don't know too
| much about it but from other commenters, there are
| apparently churches that emphasize the mysticism and
| paranormal side of Christianity, some that focus on the
| texts, some that mostly deal with hero-worship and the
| hero's origin story, some that are basically political
| Trump rallies, and some more laid back ones that are
| basically social/music clubs.
| hutattedonmyarm wrote:
| > _f you read enough fiction on a shared topic, you 'll be
| able to pull the same number of 'enlightening' quotes from
| those books as religious people can from their own sacred
| tomes._
|
| In fact, _Harry Potter And The Sacred Text_ does exactly
| that!
| aahortwwy wrote:
| You really don't see the difference between popular fiction
| and cultural texts that have survived for thousands of years?
|
| How do you feel about The Iliad, Plato's dialogues, the
| Mahabharata, Tao Te Ching, or the Epic of Gilgamesh? Do they
| also offer "no more meaning in your world" than modern
| fantasy novels?
|
| I didn't think being an atheist meant closing ones mind to
| human culture. Guess I've been doing it wrong.
| elteto wrote:
| None of these are religious texts (as in, the Bible, the
| Koran, etc) . What are you talking about?
| jhugo wrote:
| Do you have any more evidence for some of the claims made
| in those texts than you do for the claims made in
| religious texts? Read them all as fiction, but they're
| still culturally significant and a lot can be learned by
| reading them, even if all you are learning is more about
| your fellow human's perspective.
| stryan wrote:
| The Dao De Jing, Mahabharata, and Plato's dialogues have
| been or are currently used as religious texts (the former
| two more then the latter, but the Neo-Platonism is/was a
| hell of a drug).
| mitchdoogle wrote:
| I think the person you replied to simply meant they found
| no spiritual significance in religious texts. That is,
| their ONLY value is either as a piece of literature or as a
| historical recording of culture.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| In context, your reply sounds like a negative take, but I
| find it rather positive.
|
| I've always found good fiction enlightening. There is no need
| to be so serious about it.
|
| My biggest criticism of religion is the very boundary drawn
| between fiction and scripture: that adherents to a religion
| must treat fiction as if it is reality.
|
| All too often, that means obsessing over obedience to a
| structure of rules/dogma, instead of confronting the reality
| right in front of us; like voting to restrict gay marriage so
| God will bless our country, instead of learning to empathize
| with people around us to become a better community.
| padobson wrote:
| _like voting to restrict gay marriage so God will bless our
| country_
|
| Do we know how this is going to play out, though? Has
| matrimony between same sex couples ever been widely
| available in any civilization? Rome, Greece, China and
| Egypt all had various different approaches to open
| homosexual relationships overtime, but it's hard to find
| any significant civilization that broadly equated same sex
| unions and heterosexual marriage. I'll allow that my
| research on this is incomplete.
|
| I think anyone who thinks they know for certain how this
| kind of social change will play out on the scale of decades
| or centuries is mistaken. It's possible that everything
| turns out great and we enter a golden era of tolerance and
| flourishing human relationships, but at the same time
| there's usually something worth fearing in the unknown,
| which is why we tend to.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| If no one has tried it yet, it might be worth being the
| first one.
|
| From what I can tell, the only group claiming to know
| what will happen in the future are religious
| conservatives who want gay marriage outlawed. It's their
| claim that homosexual unions will lead to a bad societal
| outcome, and that claim is based purely on religious
| dogma.
| hn_version_0023 wrote:
| > My biggest criticism of religion is the very boundary
| drawn between fiction and scripture: that adherents to a
| religion must treat fiction as if it is reality.
|
| Agreed. This is the part that really gets under my skin...
| its been my understanding for most of my life that the
| bible specifically is full of _allegory_ , not _history_.
| Yet, so many many of the "believers" I encounter don't know
| what "allegory" means. The bible is their literal truth!
|
| Tbh, knowing this isn't helpful. It somehow makes me _more_
| paralyzed in dealing with literal believers. It always
| feels like they know they're full of shit, but won't admit
| it. There's a disingenuousness to it that very deeply
| bothers me.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| Often it's because while they may "know they're full of
| shit", they won't admit it to themselves.
|
| Being able to think critically of religion means being
| agnostic or atheist.
|
| My assertion is that it's not you who is paralyzed, but
| anyone who cannot criticize their own position.
| hn_version_0023 wrote:
| This is a good take, thanks! It feels like their
| paralysis is contagious, which is endlessly frustrating.
| lukas099 wrote:
| I hold spirituality to be a choice to hold things sacred.
| Almost everyone holds something sacred, whether it's family
| bonds or whatever. You can also choose to hold more things
| sacred, even the entire world, without believing in
| divinities.
| wincy wrote:
| I mean, I used to be an atheist. Like, going to Richard
| Dawkins on campus, sneering at how stupid Christians were
| rolling my eyes at every little thing atheist. For a good ten
| to fifteen years. Then I realized it was terrible for my
| mental health and just got over myself and adopted more of a
| Pascal's Wager outlook. Like, I frankly don't give a damn
| about the truth or falsity of religion anymore. That's not
| the point. It lets me act as if my life has meaning
| regardless of whether or not that's true, which even when I
| directly reflect on it is a small amount of comfort
| insulating me from the yawning abyss of existential terror I
| felt throughout all of my 20s and half of my teens.
|
| If pressed I guess I'll say it's unlikely to be true. But
| that's not the point. I don't even care to explain the point
| really. But both me and my wife ran Meetup groups about being
| atheist and eventually decided reading Christian philosophy
| and teachings was a better bet than the slow crushing
| millstone of the weight of the universe awaiting me behind
| the curtain of materialism.
|
| There's a lot of really bad stuff and I think Christianity
| needs reforming, but I still think it's the better long term
| bet in terms of the wellbeing of me and my future
| generations.
| WXLCKNO wrote:
| I know the universe is a cold void but I find tons of
| meaning in seeing my family and friends be happy. From my
| relative perception of what's good and what matters, that's
| sufficient. Perpetuating mass delusion through religion
| doesn't seem like the better bet.
| solitus wrote:
| Replace the word "religion" by "communal life philosophy"
| and perhaps you'll start understanding its actual value.
|
| I've been reading Stoic philosophers for some time now
| and it has helped me a lot. Christianity seems to take a
| lot from them and adds a mythical spin.
|
| I think the biggest issue with religion stems from the
| fact that many people fail to understand religious texts
| are not factual they are metaphorical. Unfortunately,
| throughout history (and still today) this
| misunderstanding has been used and led to an incalculable
| number of heinous crimes.
| mitchdoogle wrote:
| It seems like you've really loaded up the term "atheist"
| here with a lot of negative connotation. It's unfortunate,
| but a lot of people seem to think this way. Truth is,
| everyone in the world is an atheist if you just take the
| word at its basic definition of "a lack of belief in a god
| or god(s)". That is, there are surely gods you've never
| even heard of and so you lack belief in them. The way you
| feel about those unknown gods is the same way I feel about
| all gods
|
| But the label of atheist has been imbued with all sorts of
| negativity. So much so that some people hear it and think
| being an atheist actually makes someone evil, without any
| care for the well-being of other humans. Or they think the
| atheist must be miserable and unfeeling.
|
| It's why I don't even use the term any more. I don't know
| if other people I'm talking to will have the same
| definition of the term that I do. If someone asks me about
| my religious beliefs, I simply say that I have none.
| austinthetaco wrote:
| This is pretty adjacent to some of the stuff I've been
| thinking about as of recent. Maybe I'll give religion a
| try.
| snikeris wrote:
| > If pressed I guess I'll say it's unlikely to be true. But
| that's not the point.
|
| The problem is expecting the dogma of a thousands years old
| tradition and book to be absolutely true. There are things
| in the Bible and Christianity that are basically tall
| tales. For example, I doubt Jesus was immaculately
| conceived, but it makes for a great story. People make up
| stories about remarkable people. I believe Jesus was a real
| person who had world-changing insights, but I'm afraid a
| lot of cruft has built up around him and been carried
| forward as literal truth.
|
| The challenge for an individual is separating the wheat
| from the chaff.
|
| Most of my thoughts on the matter are derived from
| Tolstoy's The Kingdom of God is Within You.
| engineer_22 wrote:
| I didn't read it, but I listened to an audiobook version
| of TKOGIWY about a year ago on a long road trip. I must
| have missed something, because my take-away was that the
| author was propounding the merits of of passivism, and
| anti-authoritarianism. I thought it was tedious. I
| remember being disappointed.
| kodah wrote:
| > Like, going to Richard Dawkins on campus, sneering at how
| stupid Christians were rolling my eyes at every little
| thing atheist. For a good ten to fifteen years. Then I
| realized it was terrible for my mental health and just got
| over myself and adopted more of a Pascal's Wager outlook.
|
| As an atheist, you weren't a practicing atheist. You were
| an agitator with a religion of your own, which is
| projecting and spreading atheism. I used to call these
| folks "militant atheists" because, like when I was a
| teenager and left the Catholic church, I was ready to treat
| others the way I'd been treated (and seen others treated).
| This is not a healthy paradigm for leaving any community
| though and furthermore it repeats the sins of the past.
|
| > Like, I frankly don't give a damn about the truth or
| falsity of religion anymore. That's not the point. It lets
| me act as if my life has meaning regardless of whether or
| not that's true, which even when I directly reflect on it
| is a small amount of comfort insulating me from the yawning
| abyss of existential terror I felt throughout all of my 20s
| and half of my teens.
|
| ... and then you adopted the mindset of an actual atheist
| (one without religion), and then adopted a religion!
|
| For what it's worth, I'm glad you're happy, that's really
| what matters. Maybe now that you have experience as someone
| without religion it gives you perspective as someone with
| faith. From what you've written, it sounds like that's the
| case.
|
| A final thought (and opinion) that no one asked for: as an
| atheist I applaud the healthy exercise of and engagement
| with religion. The only time in which I object to religions
| or institutions is when they think their ideas are proper
| enough to be codified into law. For that, we have science
| and bureaucracy, of which religion can be a part of neither
| due to self-interested hegemony, which is an obvious
| conflict of interest.
| swat535 wrote:
| > Religious texts are made up fiction that hold no more
| meaning in my world view than Harry Potter or Game of Thrones
|
| I have been downvoted many times (not sure why?) for stating
| this on HN, but I will state it again:
|
| It's sad that this line of thinking has taken over the modern
| time. We now have "science", so we don't need any of that
| silly stuff like "philosophy" or "art" or "religion". All can
| be explained through the scientific method and all other
| branches of human intellect are null and avoid.
|
| Of course, this comes from the new Atheists who influenced a
| lot of the younger generation years a go when they started
| but their ideas actually stems from older philosophers who
| shaped the modern day thinking.
|
| Mainly Karl Marx, Friedrich Nietzsche (who was also
| influenced by Feuerbach), Jean Paul Sartre and Michel
| Foucault.
|
| For example, What did Jean-Paul Sartre say? "Existence
| precedes essence" and you can _clearly_ see how this has
| affected the modern Atheism mentality in the 21st century.
|
| If existence precedes essence, then everything is relative
| and nothing can be objective and absolute; thus to claim
| things such as objective morality in the way that religion
| does is meaningless.
|
| Don't forget that Sartre said: "If God exists, I can't be
| free, but I am free. Therefore God does not exist". Once
| again, if you look carefully enough, you absolutely see this
| in the modern world. The New Atheists for example, took all
| their ideas and spread them from these philosophers. What was
| Hitchen's famous quote? He would constantly regurgitate Karl
| Marx: "Religion is the opium of the people" which again.. is
| rooted from Sartre philosophy.
|
| There is a great talk about this here:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KQcm0Mi5To
|
| More to it, to anyone who claims religious people are
| intellectual inept, I would simply challenge you to read any
| of the material written by the intellectuals of the
| tradition. For example, for Christianity they would be:
| Augustine of Hippo, Anselm of Canterbury, Thomas Aquinas or
| John Henry Newman and tell me you're dealing with someone who
| has suspended his critical faculties.
|
| You are welcome to disagree with them of course, but to claim
| that we should simply replace these materials with math books
| is disingenuous.
|
| Just my 2c.
| v-erne wrote:
| >> More to it, to anyone who claims religious people are
| intellectual inept, I would simply challenge you to read
| any of the material written by the intellectuals of the
| tradition
|
| That's a straw man - we all are idiots sometimes (I believe
| that most of times but that just me) and this little silly
| observation can be easily used to explain how otherwise
| rational and intelligent person can hold two opposite views
| in their had. Our rational abilities are greatly
| exaggerated by people like You who believe that there are
| magical others that can be rational all the time in all
| aspects of their life. Those people believe in God because
| they want to believe (by which I mean its an emotional
| decision and not an logical one) and the logic is there
| only to rationalize what their emotions are telling them. I
| suspect that if medicine will get advanced enough we will
| see finally that by just playing with memory and emotional
| state of person we can easily turn the most avid believer
| into Christopher Hitchens (and vice versa).
| wellthisisgreat wrote:
| Religion would be ok to me and, I'd imagine, OP if it
| presented itself as philosophy or fairy tales that you
| could take or leave. Or a part of human history like
| medieval knights.
|
| It's a curios byproduct of human inquisitiveness and that's
| it. it shouldn't have any special rights or claims to have
| a deeper understanding of the universe that would even give
| certain people (priests etc) to be the judges of other
| people's actions.
|
| The world wouldn't succumb into chaos if all churches /
| mosques etc . were gone in an instant and people forgot
| they existed as anything but pretty buildings.
|
| There were of course smart and kind people at all times and
| they happened to use the vehicles of religion some long
| long time ago when it seemed like the best logic toolbox
| for the mind
| schwartzworld wrote:
| > we don't need any of that silly stuff like "philosophy"
| or "art" or "religion"
|
| Op didn't say anything about art or philosophy. You added
| that stuff in. Atheism doesn't preclude art or philosophy.
|
| > All can be explained through the scientific method
|
| As opposed to "all can be explained through God"? How is
| that any better?
| r_c_a_d wrote:
| And for atheists like me, you can still learn a lot from
| religions. I got a lot out of Alain de Botton's "Religion for
| Atheists"
| https://www.librarything.com/work/11370617/book/89008159
| sleepdreamy wrote:
| As someone who was religious when they are younger but no
| longer, why? I used to be a devout Christian until I went
| exploring the world and saw the unreal amount of massive
| suffering, imbedded greed etc; If god is real, he is a cruel
| god.
|
| We have the technology and means to ensure every person on this
| earth does not go hungry and has a safe place to sleep at
| night. But humans do human stuff.
|
| You probably pass plenty of homeless in your daily life and
| never look/think of them again. Yet somehow religion constantly
| preaches harmony and giving to others. Most religious people I
| know are inherently greedy and abide by Capitalistic morals and
| act as such.
|
| I guess I could create a bubble for myself and not care about
| others at an inherently deep level like most humans on earth
| do.
|
| What would a religious Scholar/Teachings do for me if I can
| plainly see that teachings are only followed when convenient or
| warped to fit my world narrative? What would you suggest?
| grp wrote:
| After the Irish Potato Famine that George Boole lived
| through, he worked on a paper named "Origin of Evil".
|
| His conclusion was: Absolute evil does not exist and pain is
| an instrument of good.
|
| I can't find it online, my source is the documentary "The
| Genius of George Boole" [1].
|
| Kierkegaard's The Sickness unto Death [2] could be a related
| reading too. I remember that I enjoyed it in a fun way.
|
| Also a dumb theory of mine is: suffering is the proof that
| you are still alive.
|
| [1] https://youtu.be/Hljir_TyTEw?t=1855
|
| [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sickness_unto_Death
| bytematic wrote:
| Yikes
| flycaliguy wrote:
| I'm sure I've read a few dozen of the same old AA debates on
| HN, but, yeah it worked for my old man.
|
| AA, in particular the serenity prayer, has at least some
| overlap with the more tech friendly pursuit of Stoic
| philosophy.
|
| "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot
| change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know
| the difference."
| projektfu wrote:
| My issue with AA is that people can seek attention by
| relapsing. Going cold turkey and never drinking again is the
| simple solution and it doesn't require all the drama.
| spoiler wrote:
| This is actually dangerous advice for a lot of forms of
| addiction... You MUSTN'T quit certain substances cold
| turkey, especially after prolonged abuse, because the
| intake of them are part of the body's homeostasis.
|
| It's also very inconsiderate... Addiction generally has
| much deeper roots than just "craving the high" since it can
| be maladaptive coping mechanisms people develop due to
| traumatic childhoods (or later life, but less likely). Eg,
| substance abuse/addiction is commonly found in people who
| suffer from CPTSD.
|
| The high isn't "I'm having the time of my life" for these
| people, but a a way to disconnect and silence their brain
| demons.
|
| Also, a lot of people don't know they were abused or
| neglected as children (becaus it's "their normal") and then
| go through life as struggling with all sorts of
| internalised shit.
|
| Edit: Also a very important thing I want to put out there:
| if anyone struggling with addition reads this, addiction
| isn't something to be ashamed of or to put yourself down
| over. It might not be your fault. But most addictions are
| maladaptive, and the sooner resolved the more you will get
| out of life. Don't be ashamed of yourself, and don't hate
| yourself for it
| projektfu wrote:
| You are reading a lot more into my comment that isn't
| there. I am specifically talking about alcohol as the
| comment is about AA. AA generally recommends stopping
| cold turkey, so you are also contradicting AA.
|
| I was an alcoholic and now I am not. I don't think it is
| easy but it is relatively simple. A lot of stuff that is
| glommed onto recovery from alcoholism obscures the fact
| that you have to stop using the drug, that is
| fundamental. Anything that unintentionally encourages
| relapse is not useful.
| rahoulb wrote:
| Then AA is wrong.
|
| For many drinkers, suddenly stopping can be life
| threatening, causing seizures and convulsions.
|
| I also stopped drinking, effectively cold turkey - but I
| wasn't a very heavy drinker, just a habitual one.
| However, I rejected AA as far too prescriptive in its
| approach.
|
| For anyone reading this who is considering quitting
| alcohol I recommend r/stopdrinking on reddit, which is an
| incredibly friendly and supportive place where people
| practice and discuss a variety of methods.
| projektfu wrote:
| For some heavy and consistent drinkers, they should check
| themselves into a hospital or clinic when they quit. But
| the vast majority of alcoholics will not develop delerium
| tremens when they quit. I personally worried about DT
| when I was drinking a six pack per day and used it as an
| excuse to never miss a day of drinking. I am probably not
| alone in my neurosis so telling people that they are
| likely to develop severe alcohol withdrawal is probably
| not a good way to help them to quit.
|
| Surmounting all of this is very much like a lot of
| difficult tasks - often made more difficult by well-
| meaning people who want to point out all the difficulties
| you hadn't considered yet. What we need is more resources
| like: do you drink this much? Go to this clinic when you
| quit. Worried? Then quit sooner rather than later when
| you are drinking even more.
| spoiler wrote:
| I think I agree with your intent and sentiment, and
| you're definitely right that people make excuses when it
| comes to quitting (and relapsing).
|
| But IMO more often than not, we should't be flippant or
| dismissive about the excuses (for relapses or for
| continuing to use).
|
| For some people, maladaptive coping--and all its
| consequences--is a cheap price to pay compared to facing
| a sober existence when unequipped to deal with it.
|
| So even if they quit cold-turkey (or just quit), they
| won't necessarily improve their quality of life because
| they don't know why they got into addiction in the first
| place. However, going to support groups can help meet
| people. Those who struggle with similar root causes of
| their addiction tend to cluster as well, and that can
| (indirectly, and with a bit of luck) help identify root
| causes. That was what happened with me, and I'm forever
| grateful to support groups.
|
| In my case I was an adult child of narcissistic parents
| (ACoNs)[1] and I struggled with C-PTSD[2] all my life (I
| self-misdiagnosed myself many times with depression,
| autism, younameit) and I'll live with it forever. In a
| twisted and perverse way, I think drug abuse and
| addiction--with all the indirect suffering they caused--
| also saved my life. If it weren't for drugs, literally
| wouldn't have had _any_ coping mechanism whatsoever. So,
| in cases like mine quitting cold-turkey means that the
| withdrawal symptoms just compounded compounded with our
| emotional dysregulation.
|
| Also I want to finish with this: I am really glad you
| managed to turn your life around and quit using. I'm
| happy that you took steps to improve your life, and as
| cheesy as it sounds: I'm proud of you! Thank you for
| sharing your story; I know talking about these things
| isn't easy.
|
| Stay strong!
|
| [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_parent
| [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_post-
| traumatic_stress_...
|
| edit: wordsmithing
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| >alcoholics are just doing it for attention
|
| What an incredibly garbage take. Not genetics, having
| alcoholic family, none of that? You just distill it to
| that?
| projektfu wrote:
| I actually did not write that, thank you. A "garbage
| take" is, for example, when you put words into someone's
| mouth and use that for outrage.
| cassepipe wrote:
| Interesting take. Is it from experience or an ego boost by
| comparing yourself to those who have relapsed ?
| projektfu wrote:
| Can you ask more politely or are you dissing me
| intentionally?
| cassepipe wrote:
| It is a rather controversial statement. I have more
| consideration for a controversial statement from somebody
| who knows what he is talking about (and provide
| arguments/anecdote) than from someone making a moral
| judgment. It was rather a challenge to your statement
| with a conditional diss to force you two elaborate.
| rahoulb wrote:
| Saying
|
| > Going cold turkey and never drinking again is the
| simple solution and it doesn't require all the drama
|
| is very impolite to everyone who has ever struggled with
| any addiction.
| tonyarkles wrote:
| Coming at this as both someone who's addicted to tobacco
| and has ADHD, I've spent a good chunk of my life having
| people naively (at best) or condescendingly (at worst)
| tell me things like:
|
| - you just need to quit cold turkey, how hard can it
| possibly be to _not_ do something?
|
| - have you tried focusing?
|
| - you should try making todo lists!
|
| - if you would just sit still and listen, you could do
| better on your homework!
|
| While I do agree that the parent wasn't the most polite,
| comments like yours definitely fall somewhere in the
| naive-condescending spectrum and I read the parent's
| comment as trying to figure which end of that spectrum it
| came from.
| projektfu wrote:
| I agree with you that telling people to do things that do
| not work for them is not helpful. However, there is no
| substance you can stop taking to cure your ADHD.
|
| Any advice for an alcoholic that does not include "stop
| drinking" is not good advice. Every alcohol-related
| problem stems from the alcohol. It may not be everything
| needed for their recovery, but it has to be the basis. AA
| at least gets this right. However, AA paints a picture of
| addicts as people who are unable to ever get this aspect
| of their life under control. Unlike non-drinkers, AA
| alcoholics are always fighting the demon Alcohol. The
| organization does not believe in full recovery. Sometimes
| I have read a no-true-Scotsman formulation which says
| that if you can survive sober without AA, then you were
| not really an alcoholic. How is this helpful?
|
| I think the proof is really in the pudding. AA has a lot
| of former members who still do not drink. These are
| people who quit drinking and eventually found the
| meetings unhelpful.
|
| I live without fear of relapse. This is because I know
| that I will never "need" alcohol again.
|
| To address the other side of what you are talking about,
| I hope that one day I will be able to live properly with
| ADHD. As of yet, we have not found an approach that
| generally works. Stimulants are helpful but they are a
| band-aid on the problem and have side effects. Behavioral
| therapy is helpful, too, albeit a bit mild in effect. I
| hope that when a good approach is developed, I will have
| the sense to try it.
| piva00 wrote:
| Simple isn't easy. Losing weight is simple, just eat less
| than what your caloric expenditure per day is. It's still
| hard as fuck and just telling someone who has issues with
| eating "just eat less, it's simple" is not helpful at all.
|
| Going cold turkey and never doing X is the simple solution
| for any addiction, now get addicted to anything and try
| that out...
| projektfu wrote:
| I agree it is not easy, but for me it is better to
| approach it simply. It may be that the best way to eat
| less for an individual is to fast, or to eat five small
| meals, or whatever program they use. But advising people
| that it is next to impossible has never worked.
|
| I have been addicted to cigarettes and alcohol. Going
| cold turkey is essential for getting over the addictions.
| Never doing them again makes relapse unlikely. These are
| simple facts. AA says you can't really achieve
| independence you have to replace it with meetings and
| prayer. I say you can get over it. And I have experience
| with people who go back and forth to AA relapsing, and so
| how will they ever get free?
| seti0Cha wrote:
| That's like the simple solution for depression: think happy
| thoughts. Addiction rewires your brain so that simply
| stopping is a very heavy lift. Not impossible, but relapses
| are common and there's usually drama, AA or no.
| cassepipe wrote:
| Quoted in Robert Sapolsky's book "Why Zebra don't get ulcers"
| on stress (highly recommended).
|
| It's a nice quote because it is a bit more interesting than
| common popular wisdom that exists across humanity and in all
| religions simply telling you : "Accept what you cannot
| change"
|
| That is often elided even more by "Accept your situation" or
| even "Obey" providing great convenience to the powers that
| be.
| [deleted]
| zhdc1 wrote:
| For those of you complaining about SnowHill9902 recommending
| religion, please check out Optimize.me (free) for something
| secular. It's still, IMO, the best collection of practical
| self-help knowledge and insight available on the internet.
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| Nothing quite like fear of eternal damnation to motivate
| oneself.
| seti0Cha wrote:
| That's a strawman.
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| Not really, it was a big motivator for me in three decades
| I wasted believing indoctrinated garbage. Thankfully I
| broke out of that tar pit of magical thinking.
| seti0Cha wrote:
| It's a straw man in the context of using faith to battle
| addiction, regardless of the role it played in your
| personal life. Virtually no one advocates trying to scare
| addicts into recovery with the threat of hell.
| mantas wrote:
| The problem is that many people otherwise don't have
| motivation.
|
| Why strive for anything? Especially when the very bare
| minimum for survival is already covered by community.
| pixl97 wrote:
| It may be hard to accept that the universe exists for no
| reason at all. You can fall in to a nihilistic trap where
| nothing matters. Or you can fall into a fantasy trap and
| say it matters for reasons that are not true.
|
| I would rather follow a more humanistic path, that we
| define our own existence, and that we should attempt to
| minimize our own suffering.
| mantas wrote:
| The problem is if enough people go full-nihilist, society
| crumbles.
|
| Same for minimising one's suffering. A healthy society
| requires a lot of sacrifice from individuals, even with
| today's technology.
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| Really? The only thing that will motivate them is a
| baseless claim about life/suffering after death?
| mantas wrote:
| What else?
| grp wrote:
| So true. Pork is forbidden for muslims for many centuries (an
| awesome kind of motivation) and yet people struggled to wear
| masks during the Covid19 pandemic while facing own potential
| death, maybe killing relatives or unknown consequences (at
| the time).
| BbzzbB wrote:
| Got anything more specific to recommend? I'd like to read the
| main books of the main religions eventually out of personal
| culture, but they won't get to the top of the reading pile any
| time soon. Meanwhile, I'm sure procrastination, motivation and
| discipline are behaviors that religious scholars had to develop
| even in a pre-Internet world so I'm sure there are interesting
| takes written on the subject. I recall some reknown writer from
| a few centuries (like 16th/17th century?) writing about his
| struggles with procrastination and how he eliminated
| distractions (lol!) from his working environment.
| kldavis4 wrote:
| Check out this essay https://renovare.org/articles/self-
| denial-without-self-hatre...
| BbzzbB wrote:
| Whereas self-indulgence is procrastination and self-denial
| is altruism & giving yourself (time and what not) to
| others?
| farrelle25 wrote:
| The ancient Christian monks battled against procrastination,
| lack of motivation, etc.... they called it "Acedia" aka "The
| noon-day devil"...
|
| Apparently the monks felt a huge urge just to sleep, rest and
| abandon their study around midday... it was a fairly well
| recognised psycho-spiritual problem in the middle ages for
| some monastic orders...
| BbzzbB wrote:
| Thanks a lot for the terminology, looking at Google's first
| page for "Christian monk procrastination" I'm not sure I
| would've found it if I even looked for it.
|
| They're interesting inputs for Marginalia's search engine
| FWIW.
| bajsejohannes wrote:
| For youtube specifically, I found this great snippet for ublock
| origin. It removes (almost) all recommendations in youtube, which
| makes it much easier to quit after just one video:
|
| www.youtube.com###secondary
|
| www.youtube.com##ytd-browse[page-subtype="home"] #primary
|
| www.youtube.com##.ytp-show-tiles.ytp-endscreen-
| paginate.videowall-endscreen.ytp-player-content.html5-endscreen
|
| Source: https://pawelurbanek.com/youtube-addiction-selfcontrol
| RockRobotRock wrote:
| The firefox/chrome extension Unhook provides these features as
| well, and gives you fine-grained controls over most of the
| addictive features on YouTube.
| WhyOhWhyQ wrote:
| Second this. Even if you don't remove the other features,
| removing the comments alone is a godsend.
| screye wrote:
| > I can't trust myself. Cause: I'm simply incapable of doing
| things I've set out to do.
|
| My ADHD alarms were going off right as I saw this. It is exactly
| how I characterized my struggles with ADHD too. If anything, I
| have had a point in my life when I would have written this exact
| same post. I have since found some reasonable solutions without
| medication. So, I'll post some of them here.
|
| > Getting over it: Besides blanket ban on all things video and
| social media, I don't think I have a better solution
|
| If I was a betting man, I'd bet against this working,
|
| _______
|
| Recommendations:
|
| 1. Don't fight your base state. If hedonism and continuous
| stimulation is what you are. That's fine. I literally walk around
| with a podcast on at all times and I watch ALL my YT
| subscriptions everyday. It is more wasteful to spend an entire
| day fighting off those urges, than to just do them in one go and
| get them out of the way. Those blockers/procrastination-
| extensions never help. I have tried. It only makes me more
| miserable.
|
| 2. ADHD people do a lot better with external deadlines than
| internal deadlines. Make small-tangible (about 50% of your
| capacity) daily commitments. If a task takes longer than 1 day,
| break it down until it seems like a '1 day' task. Communicate it
| in a formal settings (standups), and just like that, the fire
| under my proverbial butt, lights up.
|
| 3. Post-covid there is no such thing as weird working hours. If
| the wave of productivity hits you at 8pm, so be it. Traditional
| hours don't work for you, and trying to follow them will only
| make you more miserable. Just make sure you get your sleep and
| food on time.
|
| 4. Learn to give up and ask for help. ADHD people also tend to be
| perfectionists with weirdly strong ethics around commitments in
| the worst way possible. If the task has become an albatross
| around your neck, then ask for help. Pair program, have a white
| boarding session or plain old ask someone else to do it. If your
| rigid ethical system is blocking something critical, then it's
| better to be humble and move on.
|
| 5. Channel procrastination productive directions. I am known in
| my friends group for being the most resourceful person with
| encyclopedic knowledge about absolutely random things. Guess how
| I learned that? It has helped facilitate relationships and I get
| to stay at the top of my 'learning' by procrastinating. Another
| awesome way of procrastinating is unblocking your peers, my ADHD
| brain loves it. Sometimes I will use procrastination to build out
| the helper-package I had been planning for weeks or cleaning up
| old code. Not ideal, but better than nothing.
|
| 6. Do something you love. ADHD people above all, cannot do mind-
| numbing work. I changed my entire career direction to be in
| something that I loved instead of liked, and it has paid off big
| time. When work feels like procrastination, it is easier to
| finish work.
|
| 7. Pick up a deeply exhausting hobby. Drums are an amazing way
| for me to decompress if the ADHD side is peaking too much. I bang
| the living daylights out of that thing for 20 minutes, and it
| clears my mind up for easier work. Progmetal serves a similar
| use-case for me. ________
|
| I am yet to figure out if I should get medications. I have self-
| medicated with a lot of coffee, but am scared of going any
| farther with real medication. I personally will wait until an
| adverse life event before choosing medication as a necessary
| solution. However, a few of my ADHD peers swear that they would
| not be able to function in society without their drugs. So yeah,
| maybe try some medication and things might just work out.
|
| Lastly, watching normal people give ADHD folks recommendations is
| some of the most hilarious stuff ever. They simply can't fathom
| the complete lack of self-agency that's so central to being ADHD
| person.
|
| ____
|
| My procrastination creds: (odd flex but OK)
|
| * 100k comment karma on reddit (no memes) * 5k comment karma on
| HN (pure brute force) * 3 hrs/day YT videos watched on average
| (most of it is podcasts in downtime) * Medically diagnosed with
| ADHD * Was the most restless kid I've seen (undiagnosed till
| adulthood) * Was called 'smart, but the biggest nuisance I've had
| in a classroom' by professor (easter egg)
| bowsamic wrote:
| It could be a symptom of a persistent depression disorder, it is
| for me.
|
| EDIT: I've been blocked from replying
|
| Because lack of ability to concentrate, lack of motivation, and
| engaging in repetitive behaviour because it's the only thing that
| makes you not bored, are all symptoms of it
| cassepipe wrote:
| Could you elaborate a bit on what makes you think that what's
| it could be ?
| dotadegenerate wrote:
| bengale wrote:
| My desire to read the comments sections on reddit and
| increasingly on here completely baffle me. If I was sat in a room
| and the people in there were saying things as stupid as I see on
| reddit I would leave that room and wonder how the hell I ended up
| in it. What possible reason do I have to be wasting time reading
| the barely formed thoughts of what must be predominantly
| teenagers. Yet ... I find myself back there.
| bostonsre wrote:
| It kind of feels like some kind of idle loop where my mind has
| some spare cycles and it defaults to hacker news and similar
| stuff, then it goes down the rabbit hole once started. Just
| making it a little harder to view the sites seems to help me a
| lot. I add 127.0.0.1 <site> to my /etc/hosts file during work
| hours. I find myself looking at a broken page a couple times a
| day without even realizing how I got there, but it allows me to
| avoid the rabbit hole and just get back to work.
| dhosek wrote:
| Is there a good MacOS1/Unix-y way to automate this? (I'm
| guessing a crontab that swaps two versions of /etc/hosts is
| my best option but maybe there's something more elegant?)
|
| [?]
|
| 1. I'm aware of ScreenTime, but it's too easily overridden.
| cocacola1 wrote:
| I use HeyFocus: https://heyfocus.com/
|
| I bought it when it was a 1 time $20 purchase. You can
| define what times you want to block (Monday - Friday from
| 9am-5pm, for example). You can also lock preferences for
| when the Focus is active so you can't change it. There's
| also options for adding breaks.
|
| It's worked well for me. I know a little about myself and I
| need something like this to force me from being distracted.
| Whenever I find a new site, I add it to the list of blocked
| sites.
|
| You can also block apps, or whitelist sites so everything
| except a few sites is blocked.
| smokey_the_bear wrote:
| I have a directory with a restricted hosts file and an
| empty one, and two aliases that just copy one of them to
| /etc
|
| I can turn it off whenever I want with one commandline, but
| it's enough to keep me from falling into the rabbit hole
| accidentally
| [deleted]
| sureglymop wrote:
| An idea i had a while ago is a HN client which will only show
| the comments after one has completely read the article. I don't
| know how to go about it yet, but could be really cool.
| the_gipsy wrote:
| While at it, force all articles into something like reader-
| mode.
| [deleted]
| wutbrodo wrote:
| This is what bedevils me about Twitter. I'm rigorous about
| pruning my Following list to keep it intellectually honest, so
| my main feed is pretty great. I end up reading replies to
| thought-provoking or provocative tweets because there's often
| additional context or good-faith rebuttals in there.
|
| But holy crap, those nuggets are buried among the ravings of
| the absolute stupidest people in the world. It feels poisonous
| to my epistemology, but the good stuff is _so_ valuable.
|
| I suppose the solution is to try to pick topics that nobody
| cares about? This was tough when Covid was an informational
| lifeline, but maybe I can just change my interests from
| economics to... Quantum physics or something.
| zhdc1 wrote:
| > Yet ... I find myself back there.
|
| Agreed. There have been entire days where I've found myself
| distracted from completing otherwise pressing deadlines.
|
| What I've found is that the activity I do first when I start my
| 'working day' dictates what I do. So, if I show up at work and
| open Hacker News or Tweetdeck, there's a not-so-insignificant
| chance that I'll find myself distracted one way or another for
| the rest of the day. However, if I stick to a set schedule,
| there's a good chance that I have a productive day.
|
| What worries me is that these distractions build on one
| another. So, if I start on Hacker News, and stay off of it for
| the rest of the day, I can still find myself spending a good
| chunk of time going through unimportant emails or browsing
| various news feeds.
| wutbrodo wrote:
| > So, if I show up at work and open Hacker News or Tweetdeck,
| there's a not-so-insignificant chance that I'll find myself
| distracted one way or another for the rest of the day.
| However, if I stick to a set schedule, there's a good chance
| that I have a productive day
|
| Do you think this is mediated by your mental state, instead
| of directly causal?
|
| I noticed this for myself: I was recently diagnosed with a
| CFS-like issue and a combination of drugs and identifying
| food triggers has made a huge difference in my level of
| mental energy.
|
| I still monitor and manage it day-to-day, and I noticed that
| when my inflammation is up, I am a complete sucker for
| YouTube videos and mindlessly rescrolling through Twitter.
| It's been really valuable to be able to reframe the problem
| as downstream of something more manageable.
| zhdc1 wrote:
| > Do you think this is mediated by your mental state,
| instead of directly causal?
|
| It's causal. I've found that my productivity level is
| relatively constant when I maintain a routine. The quality
| of my work may change depending on other factors, but I
| still make meaningful progress.
|
| However, if I break my routine by checking social media
| early on in the day, there's a good chance that my
| productivity will subsequently go down.
|
| I haven't found anything to suggest that I am more or less
| likely to do this when I am, for instance, not feeling
| well. One caveat. I don't have to deal with anything you
| have to deal with, so I can't make an apples to apples
| comparison.
| wutbrodo wrote:
| > One caveat. I don't have to deal with anything you have
| to deal with, so I can't make an apples to apples
| comparison.
|
| Sure of course, I'm quite clear on what was going on in
| my case, but I was wondering how broad the dynamic might
| be. Thanks for your thoughts!
| bin_bash wrote:
| I'm in my mid-30's. I quit reading Reddit because in pretty
| much all the subreddits I was in I started to feel old. People
| sound like I did 10-15 years ago when I lacked the life
| experience I have now.
|
| I don't have this experience on HN really. I suspect I'm closer
| to the average age here. There is the occasional poor opinion
| but it usually gets downvoted pretty hard. Even people that I
| disagree with I learn a lot from. Today in this thread I
| learned about how classic Christianity thought about doubt for
| example. Of course a lot of people are anonymous here
| (including me) so people are much more bold with their opinions
| than they would be in person.
|
| Not discounting your experience, but to me I have a very
| different experience on HN than I do Reddit.
| eric_cc wrote:
| No matter what the subreddit is, it's full of radically far
| left political comments. They get upvoted and any attempt to
| provide reason gets downvoted.
|
| Not sure how it became this way but perhaps it's as simple as
| what you say:
|
| > People sound like I did 10-15 years ago when I lacked the
| life experience
|
| They're kids.
|
| Or perhaps it's more sinister and coordinated. Either way,
| the political component of Reddit has made me abandon it.
| It's unfortunate because I used to enjoy niche subs in the
| same way you would any other niche forum.
| iamcurious wrote:
| As a non-unitedstatian, the entirety of reddit seems super
| right wing to me. You deserve free universal medical care.
| BobbyJo wrote:
| It's the lack of nuance that makes any conversation far
| <direction>.
|
| I was pretty left wing until the whole AOC "scarcity is a
| lie" wing of the party started taking over all online
| conversation. I'm sure the same applies to conservatives
| and Boebert/Greene nutjobs.
|
| I'm sure whether you see Reddit as left or right is
| mostly colored by the comments and posts that stick out
| to you, and those are probably the ones you find crazy or
| distasteful.
| unethical_ban wrote:
| I'm more left wing because of aoc and Bernie. Bernie in
| particular is a great example of left wing politics that
| don't alienate people on race.
| BobbyJo wrote:
| He's very classist though. Not wanting to _give_ someone
| something doesn 't mean you don't want them to _have_ it,
| and he definitely conflates those two to give himself the
| moral high ground constantly.
| 5e92cb50239222b wrote:
| I have the opposite experience. Try discussing pretty
| much anything (from latest news, to car repair, to salad
| recipes), and see how quick it goes to bashing GOP and
| Trump supporters. As a non-USian myself, this gets really
| tiring pretty quick.
| [deleted]
| mitchdoogle wrote:
| A considerable chunk of the left-wing in the US would be
| considered right-wing almost anywhere else, so it's no
| surprise a non-American would see it that way (seeing how
| the majority of Reddit users are American)
| reducesuffering wrote:
| Europeans keep saying this but Le Pen got 41.4% of the
| vote in France, so... you_cant_explain_that_meme.jpg
|
| Also good to keep in mind that the US core Democratic
| party platform is only able to purport positions that
| have a reasonable chance of winning over some of the
| moderate right wing in the country. They're constrained
| by whatever the moderate right thinks (for better or
| worse)
| seanw444 wrote:
| I think it's mostly a case of people wishing utopia was
| achievable in their fantasy-land. But, it doesn't help that
| companies like Tencent have stakes in the company. If the
| CCP can get their hands on anything American, it'd be to
| their advantage to try to use it to contribute to the
| destabilization of our society.
| bin_bash wrote:
| You're being downvoted for bringing up politics--or maybe
| the "sinister and coordinated" sentence which I certainly
| find hard to believe. That's actually interesting since I
| was going to include pretty much this in my parent comment
| but left it out since I thought it would cause people to
| miss my point.
|
| I think like a lot of people I'm moving more towards the
| center from the left as I get older and I find this is a
| point of contention with me and people on reddit. It's not
| only that though, it's also things like people being
| dogmatic about particular programming languages. I used to
| do that too but now I tend to see the world in grayscale.
| There are positives and negatives about pretty much
| everything.
|
| Regardless, I think this is mostly an age thing since
| people remind me so much of younger self. I don't think
| they're even wrong necessarily but I did find myself
| practicing "Duty Calls" quite often: https://xkcd.com/386/
| ehnto wrote:
| American Politics in general dominates almost all online
| conversation spaces, as someone who doesn't live there it
| has essentially ruined most internet forums in English for
| me.
|
| I used to think people who banned politics from the dinner
| table were being closed minded, but I get it now, they're
| fucking bored of the topic, and it creates tensions that
| the topic is underserved of. It's the same discussion over
| and over again.
| whywhywhywhy wrote:
| I mean Reddit is an echo chamber in the worst possible way
| and it doesn't help that the admins don't understand the
| concept of a containment board and think if you delete the
| board the users and their opinions will evaporate into
| nothing, so you just get the same extreme groups being
| corralled into smaller and smaller concentrations with
| other extreme groups.
| smrtinsert wrote:
| I'd love to hear what your definition of radical far left
| is.
| ajmurmann wrote:
| Not the parent, but still want to respond. I'd probably
| be seen as radical and far left myself, especially on
| social and environmental issues (I identify as neo-
| liberal though), but I'm pretty scared by how often I
| read calls to abandon "capitalism". It happens on almost
| every subreddit and even more scarry, I've heard it from
| other super smart younger people in person. I think some
| of this is to blame on corporatism in the US. Attacking
| capitalism as a whole strikes me as incredibly naive
| though and risks slaughtering the golden goose without
| any viable replacement.
| eric_cc wrote:
| Specific to the far-left vibe on reddit, a few things
| come to mind:
|
| - Authoritarian
|
| - Intolerant
|
| - Pro censorship
|
| - Naive
|
| - Bigotry
|
| - More emotional than logical
|
| Advocates for sharp increases in federal-level government
| power and authority at the cost of individual liberties
| and freedoms.
|
| Don't take me wrong here: I don't pretend that I have all
| the answers, that people left of center are always wrong,
| etc etc. I'm just describing the reddit vibe and why it's
| not for me.
| zionic wrote:
| > No matter what the subreddit is, it's full of radically
| far left political comments. They get upvoted and any
| attempt to provide reason gets downvoted. Not sure how it
| became this way but perhaps it's as simple as what you say
|
| I can comment a bit about how this is achieved, and it is
| "achieved" because it's worked for/not organic.
|
| It starts with the mods being overwhelmingly far-left, from
| the mainstream subs to even obscure radio subs. People who
| post leftist #CurrentThing will almost _never_ be banned,
| and people who inevitably reply will face immediate bans.
|
| "So what? I just won't comment" you might think, but most
| are unaware bans also shadowban your voting power. You'll
| see the numbers change from your votes but no one else
| will.
|
| This has the effect of shifting what's "popular" in a given
| sub over time, further reinforcing the narrative. Lots of
| people go with the flow/assume what appears popular is
| correct, so the effects of silencing one side reach far
| beyond those who are banned.
| ehnto wrote:
| Similar experience for me, on average reddit feels like
| people confidently speaking on topics they've not actually
| participated in much yet (if at all). Which reminds me
| wholeheartedly of myself when I was younger.
|
| When I was in my teens, I would tell engine builders on a car
| enthusiast forum that they're wrong about how a specific part
| goes together, because I'd seen one on google images and was
| pretty sure I knew better. I have grown of course, and whilst
| I know more about engines now, what I've truly learned is
| that someone who has actually done the thing probably knows
| how it really it is. People often base opinions on how they
| think things should be, when life is rarely so perfect.
| anoncow wrote:
| It has been a similar experience for me but with Slashdot.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I think tolerance for text is much higher than real life, I
| mean it's just text so you filter out 80% of the rest of what
| face to face communication is about.
| zagrebian wrote:
| > things as stupid as I see on reddit
|
| The majority of comments I encounter on Reddit are jokes that
| are at least mildly amusing, and some of them are hilarious. If
| I had to describe Reddit comments with one word, I'd say funny,
| not stupid.
| dijonman2 wrote:
| I'm with GP, I find most reddit comments to be
| immature/ignorant.
| wnolens wrote:
| The first year I spent on Reddit I thought so too.
|
| But those funny comments are often themselves memes, repeated
| in reply in similar contexts.
|
| Reddit has become one big circle jerk to my eyes. It's why
| I'm on HN, because I'm addicted but hate the community on
| Reddit.
| zagrebian wrote:
| > But those funny comments are often themselves memes,
| repeated in reply in similar contexts.
|
| Yeah, but they're still funny. Better that than hate
| speech.
| the_gipsy wrote:
| Don't forget karma bots that simply repeat the top rating
| comment from the last submission of the same url.
| calculated wrote:
| Set out a life goal. Think hard about what you can achieve in
| that time if you weren't watching videos. This is how you win.
| phdelightful wrote:
| I know cold turkey works for some people, but I'd never recommend
| it unless it's truly an emergency (immediate danger of harm) and
| you have a support system around you to hold you to it.
|
| The truth is, people are obstinate about change and also
| infinitely adaptable. So, make the changes small so you can get
| over the hump, and then stick with it ferociously. In 2 weeks
| it'll be second nature.
|
| You gotta have something fulfilling in your life away from a
| screen. Cooking, pets, exercise, relationships, kids. It may seem
| impossible to get there from where you are, I'd start with
| exercise. Great thing about exercise is it's entirely fungible
| and each incremental increase is good. Start with anything and do
| it /before/ you do technology. Then don't worry about it again
| until tomorrow.
| frontman1988 wrote:
| Try the Buddhist meditation technique of Maranasti where you
| meditate on Death. We live like we are going to live forever and
| waste a lot of our life doing stuff we would regret doing on our
| deathbeds. Meditating every morning that you are going to die has
| profound impact on how you live your life.
| javchz wrote:
| I used to waste a lot of time (I still do, but less and in a more
| functional way) sounds cliche, but something that helped me a lot
| was the book atomic habits, focusing on systems rather than in
| pure force of will.
|
| Related to this point, it's to make it harder to access your bad
| habits and easier to access the ones you want to develop.
|
| A DNS blocker it's great for things like this. I even have 2 dual
| booted systems one with custom DNS restrictions, and another one
| for play and relax.
|
| I don't think YouTube, games or Netflix it's bad. The key part
| it's intentionality, schedule and self awareness of why are you
| doing the thing your doing, and don't fall into autopilot
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| Sounds like OP isn't necessarily an addict: they have ADHD.
|
| Half the article was them complaining about poor working memory,
| and the rest about getting stimulation/dopamine from unhealthy
| sources.
|
| Everyone has "a little ADHD". We all _occasionally_ , forget
| things, hyperfocus on things we are excited about, etc. ADHD is
| the disorder of having those struggles so often it's
| debilitating. It stems from having an underdeveloped frontal lobe
| that doesn't feel dopamine as well as neurotypical brains do,
| meaning an ADHD brain needs more stimulus to feel healthy.
|
| Because of the deficit in stimulus, people with untreated ADHD
| are statistically much more likely to have a substance abuse
| disorder (SAD); but in many cases, treating their ADHD (with
| medication and cognitive behavioral therapy) has the side effect
| of treating their SAD.
|
| Addiction, in the public consciousness/vernacular, is more
| abstract than SAD: it can mean anything from chemical dependence
| to unwanted habits. I suspect most people tend to make a false
| equivalence between the former and the latter. I see all the time
| people struggling to change a simple habit and immediately
| labeling themselves "addicts". I think that's a unhelpful
| characterization.
|
| I think the point people tend to miss is that in order to change
| a habit, you don't just "stop doing it": you must replace it with
| an alternative dopamine source. This is especially tricky with
| untreated ADHD.
| jaqalopes wrote:
| As someone actually diagnosed with and medicated for ADHD, I'm
| stunned by the clarity and relatability of this description of
| it, right down to the SAD that has afflicted me for over a
| decade. None of my doctors has ever put it so clearly, so
| obviously, in a way that connects to my actual experience. All
| that is to say, I'm bringing this to my next therapy session,
| wish me luck.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| Good luck! I'm glad I could help.
| psyc wrote:
| I was exactly like OP for 2 years. I was in therapy talking
| about it that whole time, to no result whatsoever. Then I got
| on Wellbutrin and literally ten days later all of that behavior
| just completely ended, and I returned to taking care of
| important shit and being productive. No willpower required. I
| just suddenly felt compelled to do different things. Just
| saying.
|
| Wellbutrin is known to fuck with dopamine, presumably sometimes
| for the better.
| ghostbrainalpha wrote:
| How many years ago was that?
| Taylor_OD wrote:
| > "a little ADHD"
|
| Yikes. What a bad take. Many people experience some of the side
| effects of ADHD may be a true statement. But saying everyone
| has a little bit of this debilitating mental disorder makes
| light of something that is not an easy thing to deal with for
| many sufferers.
|
| That's like saying everyone has a little cancer because
| sometimes we all get colds which people going through chemo may
| be more likely to get.
| annie_muss wrote:
| I think a better way to frame it is on a continuum. If you
| lose 1% of the strength in your legs you probably won't
| notice. If you lose 99% you're stuck using a wheelchair.
| There's no clearly defined point where it goes from "normal"
| to "problematic", but if it's bad enough to affect you
| functioning in day-to-day life then it's an issue.
| sirsinsalot wrote:
| Yes, but the clue is in the name. Disorder.
|
| It's like concern for having clean hands. A certain amount
| is sensible, normal and part of being a human.
|
| Too much of that concern, when it becomes life ruining
| anxiety ... is a disorder. Normal concern for clean hands
| isn't "a little bit of OCD".
| loves_mangoes wrote:
| Autism is also classified as a neurodevelopmental
| disorder, and yet it is a spectrum.
|
| The fact that we, as humans, have to decide who gets the
| label of 'Has the Disorder' and who doesn't is just an
| artifact of how we like to label things.
|
| For the same reason that you don't magically go from a
| child to an adult the minute you turn 18. There is a
| smooth spectrum of development as people age, but for
| practical and legal reasons we need a cutoff for
| officially calling people adults.
|
| Some disorders are also on a smooth spectrum. Some people
| have a little anxiety, or show a few autistic symptoms
| without it ruining their lives. That doesn't invalidate
| the experience of people who have severe anxiety or a
| more advanced degree of autism. Don't imbue too much
| meaning to the where the cutoff for the label is.
|
| There's no need to gatekeep mental illness, the goal is
| helping people. We're not competing for who has the real
| thing(tm) and deserves to be taken seriously. Let's just
| listen to people, let them describe things as they
| perceive them to be, and try to be helpful.
| sirsinsalot wrote:
| I agree, I think I was making the distinction between
| doing X due to reasons you're happy with and that are
| considered normal and doing X due to anxiety.
|
| Those two X's are not the same, and it isn't useful to
| compare them even though they appear comparable or
| similar or the same.
|
| The key bit is the anxiety (however small or large,
| frequent or infrequent) that makes the distinction.
| loves_mangoes wrote:
| Okay, I see what you mean with the clean hands analogy
| now. I've definitely seen people on social media for
| example using OCD as an exaggeration for completely
| normal, even positive things.
|
| I agree it's not very useful to use labels for behaviors
| that are considered normal and don't have any negative
| cause or impact (whether that's anxiety or something
| else).
|
| My understanding is that a good part of the diagnosis of
| many disorders, as per the DSM, is by looking at the
| impact they have on one's life. If someone is perfectly
| happy with what they're doing, it's certainly an
| important distinction that makes labeling them with X
| disorder somewhat less meaningful.
| sirsinsalot wrote:
| I think we focus too much on the "what you can see" and
| "how it impacts others" rather than "how does this feel
| to the person experiencing it" when we describe these
| things.
|
| It really muddles the picture and distorts what's really
| important; the experience of
| anxiety/stress/irrationality/impulsivity/attention
| issues/ ... to the person feeling it.
| Jim_Heckler wrote:
| > Many people experience some of the side effects of ADHD may
| be a true statement.
|
| I think that's exactly what they meant, since they put it in
| quotes and then go on to say that ADHD proper is when those
| complications are debilitating.
| Taylor_OD wrote:
| Sure. Then they should have said that. It feels odd to
| write an untrue thing to represent a different thing that
| may be true and expect everyone would understand your
| intention.
| narag wrote:
| Another alternative explanation, that I find that extends to
| many alleged addictions is that he is avoiding doing what he
| needs to do because anxiety.
|
| A recent related post:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31408431
| fsociety wrote:
| That is what I thought for the longest time. Then I learned
| my anxiety was because of my ADHD.
| jnovek wrote:
| Both could be true: for a person with ADHD, lack of
| stimulation can cause anxiety.
| jnovek wrote:
| You alluded to this, but I think it's worth saying explicitly:
|
| People with ADHD are 2.7 times more likely to deal with
| depression than people without.
|
| This is very subjective and I can't put a finger on what it is
| exactly but something in this post just _feels_ like
| depression.
| tggir1 wrote:
| I picked up on it too. I think theres a subtle tone of
| resignation or hopelessness.
| 121789 wrote:
| I think you're catching the overall sentiment, which is "why
| does it matter?". I actually wonder whether the causal
| direction works the other way sometimes with
| anxiety/depression. The combination of the two makes it hard
| to evaluate or visualize long term positive outcomes of
| current actions, so you're more likely to gravitate towards
| things that are immediately rewarding.
|
| My unrelated take is that remote work is going to make this
| problem way worse.
| annie_muss wrote:
| I agree with this completely. I sounded just like the OP. I
| struggled with it for decades. Then recently I was diagnosed
| and started taking medication. Some of the problems basically
| stopped instantly.
|
| I implore anyone reading this and noticing it in themselves to
| go to a professional and find out if you have ADHD or not. I am
| by no means "cured" or completely functional but at least now I
| have a fighting chance.
| beebeepka wrote:
| Glad it works for you but I don't think taking "party drugs"
| on a daily basis is a good long-term idea
| ck425 wrote:
| That's an unfair and incredibly dangerous description of
| ADHD medications.
|
| First off there are multiple types of ADHD drugs. I presume
| you are referring to stimulant drugs which are the most
| commonly prescribed for ADHD, but there are many non-
| stimulant drugs available for ADHD particular in the USA.
|
| Second stimulants are only party drugs if you abuse them.
| At prescribed doses they're very safe long term, so long as
| you've no heart issues. You often get a mild euphoria when
| you first start or increase a dose but it stops after a few
| days of use. The same applies to a lot of medications, they
| can get you high when abused but that's no reason not to
| use them at the prescribed doses.
|
| Third there's plenty of evidence to suggest that the end
| effect of stimulants is different for many with ADHD and
| that they're less likely to abuse them due to this. The
| drugs do the same thing to everyone but due to lower levels
| of dopamine and/or higher sensitivity to dopamine many
| people with ADHD don't get high the same way if they abuse
| their meds.
|
| Fourth there are lots of long last slow release meds which
| are difficult to abuse. Vyvanse in particular is almost
| impossible to abuse as it metabolizes into amphetamines
| after you take it and there's no way to speed up the
| reaction enough to abuse it.
|
| Fifth to get diagnosed with ADHD your symptoms have to be
| having a severe negative effect on you life in multiple
| areas. I can't find the stats atm but life expectancy for
| undiagnosed and untreated ADHD sufferers is significantly
| lower than average mostly due to risky behaviour, mental
| health and bad consumption habits (food and self medicating
| with other far more dangerous substances). So the risk of
| any stimulant medication (which is extremely low for most
| people) has to be weighed against the risks of being
| untreated.
|
| That's not to say there aren't any potential issues with
| ADHD meds. Everyone reacts differently so you should be
| careful and only take them under the supervision of a
| trained Psychologist. They're also not sufficient on their
| own. But they're well studied, extremely safe when used
| correctly and statistically the most effective individual
| treatment by far for a very serious condition. So please
| don't post misleading things like this and put people off
| of seeking potentially life changing treatment.
| hericium wrote:
| > You often get a mild euphoria when you first start or
| increase a dose but it stops after a few days of use.
|
| Anecdotally, green tea or just L-theanine extracted from
| it helps. Even mild euphoria is unwelcome as it can
| reposition dopamine (and possibly serotonin) baseline and
| lower effects from following doses.
|
| > plenty of evidence to suggest that the end effect of
| stimulants is different for many with ADHD and that
| they're less likely to abuse them due to this.
|
| Unmedicated ADHD person is even more likely to seek
| dopamine hits and get addicted. We are commenting a post
| titled "I'm an addict" which seems to be written by
| someone undiagnosed (I'm not a specialist).
| beebeepka wrote:
| coolspot wrote:
| 1) therapeutic dosage is much less than recreational dosage
|
| 2) Drugs work differently on ADHD brains than on "normal"
| brains.
| beebeepka wrote:
| No amount of dogpiling will convince me taking
| amphetamines on a daily basis is good for you, ADHD or
| not.
|
| The mind is not the only thing being affected here. This
| shit is horrible for the body. Aren't there herbs that
| can help? Do doctors even care?
| weakfish wrote:
| Well, good thing you don't need to be convinced for other
| people to get help. Sheesh.
|
| My partners life was literally changed by taking
| medication. Do you think that's a bad thing?
|
| I strongly doubt that 'herbs' are more effective than
| decades of scientific research. I presume that you're
| hearing amphetamines and thinking of the extremes; as the
| parent said, the medical doses are far lower than that of
| recreational users.
|
| Drinking coffee is a stimulant, and yet in moderation
| it's not harmful to the used. Do you feel similarly about
| any sort of caffenation?
| beebeepka wrote:
| Good thing I am not trying to stop anyone, nor arguing
| against there being some benefits to seeking treatment.
|
| I've noticed this is mainly a US thing. If you all think
| it's great, there must be something to it. Like a big
| marketing campaign going back years. Nope, too wild! It's
| more probable I need a lecture on the benefits of being
| hooked on amphetamines in the name of mental health.
|
| How long do you think such treatment can last? Have you
| checked? Do it for your partner. Do you honestly think
| using this stuff for decades does not come with major
| drawbacks?
| windowsrookie wrote:
| "How long do you think such treatment can last? Have you
| checked? Do it for your partner. Do you honestly think
| using this stuff for decades does not come with major
| drawbacks?"
|
| I know people who have been on ADHD medication for 30
| years. I'm assuming the people I know aren't the only
| ones. So do you have any evidence that these treatments
| can't last, or are you just making things up?
|
| Edit: Also one of them has a doctorate and it would have
| been impossible for him to obtain it without medication.
| weakfish wrote:
| The issue is you keep using terminology like "being
| hooked on amphetamines" to degrade treatment like it's
| crystal meth. You should understand that doesn't sit well
| with people who have had their lives dramatically
| improved by treatment.
|
| Again, does coffee sit in that same boat?
| 80hd wrote:
| Not op but for me - and I think for many others - it's
| really a worthwhile tradeoff.
|
| To say life with mental illness/disorders comes with its
| own major drawbacks is really an understatement.
| Amphetamines may well have harmful effects, but untreated
| mental illness/disorders can cause an incredible amount
| of damage, not just to the person affected but to those
| around them.
|
| Many people, such as myself, seek treatment with
| medication after they've exhausted all other known
| options. There's only so long you can keep running on
| empty. I'm just happy to have something that works.
| boppo1 wrote:
| Medication came with unacceptable side-effects for me. Real
| bummer.
| Melting_Harps wrote:
| > Medication came with unacceptable side-effects for me.
| Real bummer.
|
| I was tested at very young age, as most millennials were in
| the US, and was told I did not have it, luckily; but
| looking back on the people who were raised in that era and
| how they handed out SSRIs like candy I'm glad I dodged that
| bullet because the adverse affects of those drugs sound way
| worse than coping with ADHD--but it also explains why
| mental hygiene/health issues in the US are as severe as
| they are.
|
| It's sad that people have ADHD, I personally can enter
| 'flow state' and block out all things for hours, even days
| or weeks if I really try; but it's to the detriment of
| everything else and so horrible for my mental and physical
| health.
|
| I lived that way for almost a decade with only small pauses
| in between, power napping is all I slept and a good day was
| 3-5 hours, with work schedules that were optimized for
| productivity over everything and my life seriously was in
| shambles: I was a boot-strapping founder with a stressful
| day job(s) and side hustles and worked 7 days/week with 90+
| hour totals. I tried my best to maintain a very contentious
| relationship and failed miserably at it.
|
| I think what needs to be addressed is that extremes are all
| bad, and OP's situation seems like it would be manageable
| were it not for self-satisfying rationalization to waste
| his time. It's like those self-sabotaging people who get
| off on the rush from the failure more than succeeding, this
| scene in Two for The Money explains it rather well [0].
|
| 0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdE-BZoB9SA
| fsociety wrote:
| The stigma of medications is more harmful in my mind, I
| feel this deeply when I read your experience of life.
|
| The first time I took my meds, my mind was blown. It was
| the first time in my long life I experienced peace and
| quiet. Now I am able to track my work, break large tasks
| into smaller ones, and quiet my brain. I'm on a dose +
| brand name with no side-effects etc.
|
| The issue, and this isn't true for everyone but I believe
| it is true for a lot, is that some doctors start people
| on what they think they should be at. Instead of starting
| at 5mg, they will do some BS calculation of gender and
| weight and start someone on 60mg. Yeah that is going to
| fucking suck.
| Melting_Harps wrote:
| > The stigma of medications is more harmful in my mind, I
| feel this deeply when I read your experience of life.
|
| Mine was a life of extremes, put simply I stopped caring
| about myself during that time and I poured myself into my
| work as I wanted to have something to show for what I
| felt was more than likely going to be a short Life.
|
| I didn't think I was going to get rich doing any of that,
| in fact I lost money for most of it's existence and I
| never paid myself in order to pay everyone else and keep
| the lights on until we accomplished our mission
| statement, the only thing that saved me in the end was
| the skill set I developed made me marketable in fintech
| and I got head hunted to go work for a Megaorp.
|
| I spent my Life doing what I wanted and lived a perilous
| and risky life and got addicted to the adrenaline rush
| and still deal with bad PTSD to this day. I take your
| words to heart, and I'm glad it worked, but sadly a
| family member who had a schizophrenic break down really
| early in life (teens) just passed from a heart attack
| this week; her health really went down hill after having
| been put on SSRI meds after that. But she also had
| substance abuse problems with alcohol, that run on both
| sides of her family, that exacerbated an already bad
| situation.
|
| I'm devastated, I'm glad it worked for you, but
| honestly... I'm not sure it's as cut and dry as you make
| it out to be.
|
| Back then I was trying to cope with my situation as best
| as I could, without medical insurance for most of that
| time, but I'm also the kind of person that goes to
| Ukraine during this situation and goes to help feed and
| process Ukrainians/Russians/Belarusians at the Mexican
| border in order to feel anything other than pain and
| sorrow if I have access to resources to do so. I'm not
| exactly seeking a medical escape to what I deal with, so
| much as trying to play a part in trying to accelerate the
| progress of the Human Condition in it's current form as I
| fear extinction is a real possibility.
|
| In short, I was trying to fix my Weltschmerz with
| seemingly noble but self-destructive behaviours because I
| didn't want to give in to the often depressing and bleak
| realities of the World. I didn't, nor do I now, want to
| feel any number than I already was back then. Given your
| handle, I imagine you understand what that show was
| trying to communicate the most was about addressing
| mental health issues more than it was an edgy hacker show
| with cool realistic cut scenes.
|
| I've since worked on it after the aforementioned
| situations and a friend's abrupt suicide last year: it
| forced me to re-evaluate my value system, and gain some
| perspective on my limitations.
| mrelectric wrote:
| Can you please share? What was wrong?
| [deleted]
| cancerhacker wrote:
| There may be different medications that can help.
|
| I was initially given Dexedrine (dextroamphetamine) and it
| was _so good_ and I wrote the most beautiful code and my
| focus was pure and I needed more and more and I lined the
| pills up at night and did I mention beautiful code, on on
| sentences and becoming insufferable?
|
| Anyway, I switched to a different stimulant (vyvanse) which
| had a more measured effect and did not lead to that kind of
| addictive over the top behavior.
|
| Apropos of the original post - I find that during a
| procrastination spell, I'm still "working" in the back of
| my mind even though it might look like I'm doing legos at
| work. At some point my brain hits what I think of as an
| "activation level" and I suddenly "flip" my attention and
| focus to the job at hand. It feels like what happens when
| you're kindling a fire, and you get a little bit of flame
| in some dry stuff, and then you "pop" that flame
| (attention) into the larger pile of fuel.
| [deleted]
| fsociety wrote:
| I will not assume what you took or what doctor prescribed
| it but will provide you with the advice I received from a
| psychiatrist who specializes in ADHD.
|
| If the medication doesn't work or has side-effects, try a
| new one. Find a doctor (or more ideally a psychiatrist) who
| starts you on the lowest dose (if a stimulant) and slowly
| ramps you up.
|
| The right dose is when, after taking the medication for
| some time like 2-4 weeks, you don't feel much but at the
| end of the day you can reflect and realize you did way more
| than usual.
|
| Medication is a small part of ADHD treatment. People have
| shown improvement with healthy coping mechanisms,
| strategies, exercise, healthy diet, etc. I've heard even an
| official diagnosis can relieve it a bit.
|
| Of course ADHD is a blanket term and everyone's is
| different. But it is possible that you would have a better
| experience with meds with a better doctor. I'm on meds and
| all my side effects have gone away due to my body
| adjusting, due to me buying brand name medications, and in
| my switch to Adderall XR. A better doctor can help you with
| all of this.
| hericium wrote:
| Bupropion (Wellbutrin, Zyban) is not a stimulant but can
| help with ADHD. May be worth checking in cases where
| stimulants aren't an option. It's however not an ADHD
| wonder drug and Wikipedia article[1] states that:
|
| > bupropion may be effective for ADHD but (...) this
| conclusion has to be interpreted with caution, because
| clinical trials were of low quality due to small sizes and
| risk of bias
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bupropion#Attention_defic
| it_hy...
| garbanz0 wrote:
| Anecdotally, Wellbutrin XR 150mg did help me with some
| problems, but not the ones described in OP.
|
| There's a couple week period of euphoria where I didn't
| have those issues at all, but I've come back down to
| baseline.
| burner22 wrote:
| I feel seen.
|
| My mechanism for remaining focused and getting through work has
| been to consume harder illicit substances, mostly cocaine. It's
| effective but definitely not sustainable long time and I'm not
| too sure where from here.
| sirsinsalot wrote:
| Try Modafinil, it replaced my coke habit.
|
| I was later diagnosed with severe ADHD.
| pugets wrote:
| I mix Adderall and marijuana. It's horrible for my health,
| but boy does it work. Adderall gets my mind moving, and pot
| keeps me sitting in my chair, ignorant of the passage of
| time, focused on work.
|
| As counterproductive as it seems, I think pot makes me more
| mindful, which can boost my work productivity. Sometimes I
| will smoke and then spend 30 minutes organizing my folder
| structures, documenting code, or writing a script to do
| something that I do manually everyday. When I'm not on pot,
| all of those tasks seem too trivial to justify doing.
| anonymoushn wrote:
| Desoxyn 5mg is highly reviewed by people who have it
| prescribed for ADHD.
| Jim_Heckler wrote:
| I don't see why one would jump to methamphetamine as a
| prescription when dextroamphetamine is usually at least as
| effective with fewer adverse effects
| guerrilla wrote:
| Generic name: methamphetamine hydrochloride
|
| Ummmm??? Maybe not a best first step to working on ADHD
| Problems...
| tylersmith wrote:
| No medication is ever the best first step but it's often
| a necessary one.
| guerrilla wrote:
| Meth isn't just any medication. The idea that meth is
| where to start is insane and not actually going to
| happen. The comment was ridiculous (maybe a joke?) It's a
| second-line treatment _at best_ and still horrible for
| you. There are tons of other drugs to start with.
| keypusher wrote:
| Desoxyn is brand name methamphetamine, just fyi
| malnourish wrote:
| Good luck getting prescribed that by any GP.
|
| I am as above board as I can be when it comes to my
| medicine (never take more than 1 a day, never ask for more,
| etc) but the song and dance for getting refills, let alone
| a new or changed prescription, makes me feel like a
| criminal hunting for his next fix.
|
| I can't imagine what it must be like for people who
| legitimately need opiates.
| mod wrote:
| My 78-year-old father, who doesn't even drink or smoke,
| gets Norcos for his back. He's a pool player and he just
| uses them when he plays long enough to trigger his back
| pain; on a normal day at the house, he won't use any.
|
| The hoops and ridiculous requirements he has to jump
| through are crazy. He just got a random drug test the
| other day. He has to meet with the doc all the time. They
| ask him stupid questions (I've been in the room). He has
| to fill out the same form each time with all these
| questions about addictive behavior. He's got to bring his
| pill bottle with him; not allowed to have too many pills,
| or too few, or you get in trouble. Doc was quizzing him
| about why he has other prescribed medications. And on and
| on.
|
| My dad has to set aside pills so that he doesn't lose the
| prescription, since he doesn't use as many pills as he's
| prescribed; it's highly important to him, as he's played
| pool nearly every single day for about 57 years and he is
| going to hold onto that as long as he can.
| 121789 wrote:
| I think it's really hard to look at the opioid epidemic
| and not think that these medications should have a really
| high bar to acquire. I'm sorry your father has to put in
| so much effort.
| loves_mangoes wrote:
| Opioids should require a reasonable bar, if we go from a
| really low bar to a really high bar, all we are doing is
| making the same mistake twice, but in opposite
| directions.
|
| The wildly excessive prescription of oxycontin & opioid
| is a crisis and a tragedy. If the response is an
| overreaction in the opposite direction, the result is
| also more tragedies.
|
| Pain doctors seem like they are really stuck between a
| rock and a hard place now. You have a whole population of
| patients who have been given pain meds like candy, and
| when you suddenly take them away they're left dealing
| with the problem. Some of them turn to street drugs out
| of desperation, and that's a countdown to another
| fentanyl overdose.
|
| Then there's people with chronic pain who may
| legitimately need the medication on a continued basis
| (some of whom have had their dosage increase to dizzying
| levels during the opioid crisis!) You frequently have
| patients with chronic pain who, after the pills are
| taking away, spend their time thinking of ways of
| _killing themselves_ , as a pain management option. They
| cannot deal with the all-natural, constant torture.
|
| When I look at the opioid epidemic, to me it's really
| hard not to think that the onus should be on
| pharmaceutical companies to not advertise their pain
| medication to doctors as non-habit forming when they are
| the very opposite, and results in those extremely
| addictive pills being given like candy to an entire
| population.
| loves_mangoes wrote:
| It seems bitterly ironic that the people who need those
| stimulant medications the most tend to be those who will
| have the most trouble jumping through all the hoops, and
| continuing to perform the song and dance on time every
| month.
|
| The 'good news' is the active compound in Desoxyn is
| widely available at cheap prices and surprisingly high-
| purity in hypo-regulated markets. It is, in a way, easier
| to acquire (on every street corner and through the mail)
| than many very boring prescription chemicals. So there is
| at least a theoretical alternative.
|
| Amphetamines for ADHD is one of the most effective
| treatment there is in all of medicine, along with things
| like insulin for diabetics and benzodiazepines for
| anxiety.
|
| Unfortunately, self-medicating with N-methylamphetamine
| is an extraordinarily unwise thing to try. It is hard to
| recommend that anyone who is already prone to substance
| abuse attempt that maneuver.
| guerrilla wrote:
| Yeah, but this is true for all debilitating conditions,
| like chronic pain, chronic insomnia, depression, bipolar,
| schizophrenia or any kind of psychosis, many kinds of
| physical disability, etc. It all makes it way harder to
| get to the doctor and do the things you gotta do to get
| better. A real catch-22 for millions of people daily.
| boppo1 wrote:
| Look for a different doctor/psychiatrist, perhaps one in
| a wealthy area. I was 20 and my guy gleefully offered to
| up my dose. He asked me like 10 filter questions that had
| obviously 'correct' answers like "Do you struggle to pay
| attention?"
| cancerhacker wrote:
| I originally sought psychiatric help because of extreme
| depression. After meeting me the doctor gave me a
| standardized survey to fill out - I assumed to take away
| with me and bring back. But he told me to sit down in the
| lobby and take it now. Turns out it was an adhd quiz kind
| of thing, and he knew that if I didn't fill it out in his
| office I'd never remember to bring it back.
| sosuke wrote:
| Short answer, prescription drugs can reliably fill in the
| spot of cocaine. You'll save money, stress and also these
| drugs can cover much more of the day.
|
| No joke; shoot me an email if you want a detailed solution. I
| can easily chew your ear off with my own tale and anecdotes.
| Email on my profile page.
| hn_version_0023 wrote:
| I have been in this situation. I only saw two options for
| myself: move from cocaine to adderall, for the focus
| specifically, presuming you didn't leave adderall for
| cocaine, of course.
|
| Second, seek medical help. Today, thats the path I would
| choose. You need a social safety net too, or things might
| take a bad turn.
|
| Good luck with it, be well, and try and care for yourself the
| way you'd care for a sick parent or child.
| FrankyHollywood wrote:
| I do think one should not bring it all to adhd being a
| physiological deficiency of the brain.
|
| For me personally it is also about being above average smart.
| I'm intensely bored by a lot of people and activities. I lose
| interest, can't remember a lot, get irritated easily.
|
| After many years I have some good friends, work which suits me,
| I know how to leasure well, basically I know how to amuse and
| challenge myself and don't experience lots of the adhs symptoms
| anymore.
| guerrilla wrote:
| This shouldn't be flagged... This was a totally valid comment
| which generated tons of fine discussion.
| [deleted]
| birdyrooster wrote:
| People with ADHD are twice as likely to become addicted to
| substances, I assume the same is true of YouTube. For many,
| including me, ADHD and addiction come hand in hand.
| gspr wrote:
| How does one generally go about dealing with the fact that the
| above is a 100% match for oneself, 30-some years into life? I'm
| feeling physically sweaty realizing how accurately the article
| - and this comment - describes me.
| tggir1 wrote:
| First thing to consider is whether your behavior is causing
| problems with your life. Are you flaking on responsibilities?
| Failing at work? Are you feeling out of control?
|
| Next, set up an appointment with a mental health professional
| (I recommend a psychiatrist) to talk through your thoughts.
| They will help you identify the causes of your behavior and
| provide solutions.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| Whether it leads to an ADHD diagnosis or not, therapy is a
| great place to start.
|
| And whether you have it or not, learning about ADHD is a
| great thing to do. I recommend starting with this cheesy yet
| informative YouTube channel:
| https://m.youtube.com/c/HowtoADHD
| dboreham wrote:
| > Sounds like OP isn't necessarily an addict: they have ADHD
|
| Two sides of the same coin imho. Both mechanisms are dopamine-
| driven.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| That's literally my point.
|
| ADHD is like having a coin that's to thin for the press
| (stimulation/dopamine) to leave a mark. Addiction is like
| having the press put too much pressure.
| sirsinsalot wrote:
| > I think that's a unhelpful characterization.
|
| I agree, and I think it is important to talk about the
| sensation, not just the observation or impact on others (which
| are easy to compare poorly).
|
| To me it isn't so much the _what_, but the _why_. The brain is
| hunting for stimulation due to a baseline deficit below that
| required to operate normally. I can tell you from experience
| that "hunt" can range from classic hyperfocus/lack of focus to
| chronic boredom, hypersexuality, drug abuse and so on.
|
| What provides the stimulation to reach baseline one day, may
| not work the next day, or even from hour-to-hour or minute to
| minute. That's the core issue, however it manifests. If just
| one thing consistently hit the spot, it'd be akin to an
| addiction (where in addiction your brain down regulates, so you
| need to keep supplying it).
|
| As it stands, it is more like being addicted to both everything
| and nothing, in a never ending frenzy of disatisfaction,
| frustration and boredom. Your brain, always downregulated,
| always chasing a moving fix.
|
| Habit doesn't come into it one tiny bit.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| > Everyone has "a little ADHD".
|
| I get what you're saying but I want to push back hard on this.
| Everyone has some of the symptoms of ADHD at any given time.
|
| But, ADHD isn't more of the same symptoms. That's how it's
| diagnosed, but the underlying mechanism is a severely
| compromised ability to self-regulate which is categorically
| different from what people experience when they are out of
| mental energy.
|
| Edit: I've clarified what I mean in other comments in the
| thread. My issue is the use of the phrase without explaining
| why it is wrong.
| sascha_sl wrote:
| I think your reaction is understandable, since "Everyone
| is/has a little X" is commonly used to dismiss or minimize
| the severity of a condition the speaker doesn't understand.
|
| But I don't feel like that's the case here.
| kodah wrote:
| > I think your reaction is understandable, since "Everyone
| is/has a little X" is commonly used to dismiss or minimize
| the severity of a condition the speaker doesn't understand.
|
| Personally when I hear people speak like this I assume
| they're trying to root someone in an empathetic
| perspective. I'm not sure I've ever heard it from someone
| who was arguing against the seriousness of the subject.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| I grew up my entire life being told everyone has a little
| ADHD and I just needed to try harder to pay attention.
| I've still heard it as an adult.
|
| My issue was using the phrase in the first place without
| some explanation of just how wrong the idea is.
| kodah wrote:
| Ah, yeah, I guess if it's being said to you about you,
| that's different. In this case, OP is speaking to a wider
| audience, so I see that as different, but I appreciate
| your perspective.
| colechristensen wrote:
| You're splitting hairs.
|
| Everyone has a little trouble regulating themselves, some
| people have a little more trouble, some people have enough
| trouble that it becomes a disorder.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| That's the entire point I'm trying to make. "Everyone has
| X" is a categorically wrong understanding of what the
| underlying problem is.
|
| An equivalent is saying everyone has trouble walking
| sometimes when we're talking about someone who limps and
| needs a cane.
|
| The symptoms are not the disorder and don't come from the
| same mechanism that causes normal people to have
| difficultly paying attention sometimes.
| sirsinsalot wrote:
| Absolutely this. A normal range of feeling / experience
| isn't a "bit of a disorder" ... it is no disorder.
|
| Feeling like you need to wash dirt off your hands before
| eating isn't a "bit of OCD", that's normal.
|
| Worrying irrationally so much about clean hands that it
| ruins your life, leaving you crying from normal tasks
| like cooking ... every touch of a surface triggers
| fight/flight ... is a disorder.
|
| It isn't the mechanism that's important, but the impact
| and motivators.
|
| Same with ADHD. A bit of being inattentive or forgetful
| or whatever ... isn't a "bit" of the disorder that also
| contains some of those behaviours in extreme.
| colechristensen wrote:
| In many cases it is not a differing underlying cause but
| simply the same thing further out of balance. Psychiatry
| diagnoses are essentially never based on a mechanistic
| explanation and I challenge you to come up with an actual
| binary change present in those with adhd and those
| without besides the latter having somebody put that label
| on them.
| cpach wrote:
| AFAICT, GP agree with you.
| intrasight wrote:
| "besides blanket ban on all things video..."
|
| Yes, start with that. Disable animation and auto-play in any
| browsers you use. And only use browsers to consume content. This
| worked for me, and now I can't stand video or animations.
| FeepingCreature wrote:
| Consider talking to a doctor about ADD? (Alternatively, get some
| Adderall somewhere and experiment.) Executive control is a
| distinct mental capability.
| sascha_sl wrote:
| This. Even with all the addictive technologies around, this
| essay makes problems sound too extreme to not be at least worth
| evaluating for ADD. Especially the consistently poor working
| memory is a dead giveaway.
|
| People forget AD(H)D is fairly common, regardless of if you
| think it's overdiagnosed or not. And with how technology has
| been turning everything into dopamine slot machines it will
| exaggerate the symptoms even more.
| Otek wrote:
| Please don't ever again recommend to someone with problems
| randomly that they should "get some amphetamine somewhere and
| experiment". Okay?
| FeepingCreature wrote:
| Eh, as I understand it this (Adderall "abuse") is fairly
| common and mostly doesn't have bad consequences.
|
| Note that inability to concentrate reliably has fairly severe
| downsides as well, like (at the extremes) inability to hold a
| job. This is not good for your medical situation either!
|
| Depending on person, "ask a roomie to try their meds" can be
| a _lot_ more viable than "go and talk to a medical
| professional." And it comes with a safety valve - your roomie
| will presumably cut you off if you get problems. Plus the
| dosage will be predictable and there won't be random
| additions. Note that I didn't say to go try meth.
|
| (Google "death by adderall". It's not hard to avoid.)
|
| Of course if there's medical contraindications like blood
| pressure or heart conditions this is a bad idea, but first of
| all the side effect profile is pretty mild, and second if you
| have a medical condition you should already know to not take
| meds on the basis of random HNews recommendations. -
| Actually, they should know their preferred risk profile
| anyway. I'm just reminding them that the option exists.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| Agreed, though mostly because of external consequences like
| the war on drugs.
|
| Even so, the rest of the advice is solid.
| anonymoushn wrote:
| why, sounds like a great idea.
| dncornholio wrote:
| What do you mean, these pills that make my kids suddenly have
| A grades and fun to hang out with are not risk free??
| rr808 wrote:
| Maybe but it seems too common - does nearly everyone have ADD?
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| Nearly everyone is not a part of this conversation.
|
| Technology - especially software - attracts people with ADHD
| traits like hyperfocus, so it's not a stretch to expect a
| higher percentage of ADHD brains on HN.
|
| On top of that, "arguing with people on the internet" is an
| attractive source of stimulation for those of us with ADHD,
| meaning we will overrepresent ourselves in any discussion.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| The visible symptoms of ADHD (ADD is no longer a separate
| thing) are things normal people experience all the time.
|
| ADHD is very poorly named. It has similar symptoms at times
| but it is categorically different because they come from
| severely compromised self-regulation across many facets.
| Emotional control, memory, focus, sensory processing, etc.
|
| Many people with ADHD find ways to work around this by
| finding ways to create a structure they can work in. This
| contributes to the belief that ADHD can be solved by
| diligent, disciplined work. Especially because discipline is
| the solution to normal people's issues with attention.
|
| But the reality is ADHD not a lack of discipline, but the
| inability to have it in the first place. Some people manage,
| but many can't and other people make moral judgements that
| anyone with ADHD isn't trying hard enough.
|
| Edit: I said this more clearly elsewhere:
|
| The symptoms are not the disorder and don't come from the
| same mechanism that causes normal people to have difficultly
| paying attention sometimes.
| zerkten wrote:
| No. But, it feels like people seem to only be able to name a
| single condition. ADHD gets misapplied frequently. I only
| scanned the original article, but it was really evident that
| the individual has a complex situation deserving more than
| self-help.
|
| To underline this point. There are almost weekly threads here
| which either either start with a mention of "ADHD", or
| someone posting a comment on "ADHD" along with how they
| manage it with self-help books. It is hard to find the right
| professional help, but it's something worth doing because
| it's probably the only thing that will solve the problems. We
| should encourage people to seek that help instead of only
| pointing to self-help articles.
| mbrameld wrote:
| You mention self-help books and videos, but have you tried
| talking to a therapist? The video watching could be an avoidance
| behavior and they could help you figure out the reasons and how
| to cope if that's the case.
| globular-toast wrote:
| I've been thinking more about addiction recently and how it
| affects us more than most people think. When most people think
| addiction they think of drugs. So, of course, _they_ are not an
| addict.
|
| But I believe we all are addicts to some degree and, at the very
| least, have the potential to become addicted to things.
|
| Things I have been addicted to, in no particular order:
|
| - Alcohol. No I wasn't an "alcoholic", but I continued to drink
| alcohol even though I knew it made me feel worse the next day
| etc. This one is very common.
|
| - Cannabis. It turned me into a recluse and perpetuated a
| downward spiral into depression.
|
| - Food. I became obese and thoroughly unfit due to my eating
| habits.
|
| - Porn. It affected my real sex life which made me and my partner
| feel bad.
|
| - Sex. I spent far too much of my time pursuing sex with multiple
| partners, broke many hearts and burnt many bridges along the way.
|
| - Youtube (and previously TV). I watched it every night in bed
| and it caused me to have terrible sleep.
|
| I'm not sure why so little attention is given to addiction.
| Obesity should simply be framed as food addiction. Nobody wants
| to be obese. It's uncomfortable, inconvenient, embarrassing. They
| all want to "lose weight". They can't because they are addicted
| to food. Making that clear would probably help people deal with
| it. It has certainly helped me in many cases to understand that
| I'm addicted to something.
| arximboldi wrote:
| This helps me a lot:
|
| https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/news-feed-era...
|
| https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/news-feed-eradicat...
| ceronman wrote:
| I identify myself with many of the things mentioned in this post.
| I am an addict too. Here is something that has helped me to
| improve things a little bit. This is of course 100% anecdotal and
| it might not work on anyone different than me, but here it is
| anyway:
|
| Initially I also used focus mode and different kinds of blocking
| apps to try to control my addiction. I configured them to block
| HN, reddit, lichess, twitter, youtube, etc, allowing me to use
| them only a few minutes at the end of the day and during the
| weekends. This approach didn't work so well. It worked fine for a
| few days but then the abstinence syndrome kicks in and I
| inevitably ended up "temporarily" disabling the blocks just to
| get that precious shot of dopamine before starting to work.
| Additionally, I was still wasting almost all my weekends and
| holidays consuming garbage.
|
| So I got this idea, what if I tweak the approach a little bit:
| Instead of blocking the apps during "productive" time, what if I
| block them during leisure time, i.e at the end of the day and
| during the weekends. The thing with media consumption addiction
| is that it leaves me feeling that I don't have time to do
| anything. I neglect a lot of my personal tasks and goals. Work is
| something that I have to do somehow, after all I need a salary.
| Doing apartment chores, reading that book I bought or learning a
| new skill is something that can always wait. And it's during
| leisure time that I should be doing those things. So I decided to
| block media consumption during the weekends and try to do
| something more meaningful in that time. It's easier to deal with
| the abstinence syndrome, because the activities can be fun as
| well, they also produce (more slowly) dopamine, just that they
| are more meaningful to me. It's easier to skip silly but
| addictive YouTube videos to work on an interesting programming
| project than it is to skip it for a boring task at work. And
| there is also this feeling that it's only for a short time, I can
| get the dopamine shot later and that somehow tricks my brain. And
| then on Monday I already feel much better, and without feeling
| the need to consume that much media.
| LimitedInfo wrote:
| interesting tip thank you
| rr808 wrote:
| I have this problem too. The thing I've noticed about the people
| that do have focus is that they tend to work strictly 9-6 only.
| If I have a task to do at 3pm my excuse for distraction is that
| I'll just work late again or work on the weekend, so I have lots
| of time. If I know I have to leave at 6pm for an event I'll focus
| and get the task done. Working from home has been a huge problem
| as its hard to define boundaries and working after dinner or
| weekends has become normal (when I say working I mean browsing of
| course)
| ltrojanowski wrote:
| I can recommend the browser extension unhook. Going to youtube
| and seeing no recommendations forces you to use it as a tool.
| Searching for specific things and not letting yourself be led by
| recommendations changed the way I use it. Additionally to that I
| also have separate browser profiles. On my work profile I block
| youtube entirely
| zagrebian wrote:
| Do you have a job?
| comboy wrote:
| Here's what worked for me.
|
| 1. Ask yourself why do you think this is a problem and debug
| deeply. Maybe, after all, spending day watching videos is fine
| and what you want to do and the story that you don't is
| unnecessary.
|
| 2. Once you bring it to your conscious mind, you face a decision,
| do I want to watch videos and maybe learn something and relax,
| given that it comes with not delivering some things I promised
| and doing the thing I've been thinking I need to do for a long
| time, or do I want to do e.g. that thing.
|
| 3. Then do what you want. It requires no effort. You do what you
| want. I know habits and dopamine addiction narration, but there
| is no substance dependence here and the trick is that we cannot
| really hold contradicting beliefs in our conscious mind (we have
| plenty of them in the background but once you collide them
| actively you usually end up creating some micro-rationalization).
| But here your focus is consciously facing the choice. Plus
| there's plenty of dopamine for something that's been on todo for
| a long time.
| wnolens wrote:
| I think we have completely different brains. What you said hits
| me like someone telling me to "be happy" when I'm depressed.
| It's not a matter of rationalization.
|
| I am jealous this works for you. Life would be so much easier
| if my intrinsic motivation was well-aligned with my rational
| thinking.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| If that's your experience most of the time, you might have
| ADHD. Here's a good (chest yet informative) introduction to
| the subject: https://m.youtube.com/c/HowtoADHD
| comboy wrote:
| I suspect they are not that different. Rationalization
| doesn't work, it's what creates "I should be doing X instead"
| in the first place.
|
| I don't know if it can help you in whatever you want to
| achieve, but to me just realization that I always do what I
| want was huge. You can't honestly tell yourself you want to
| be doing this right now and that you don't want to be doing
| it right now. Once you unpack what does that mean in your
| head that you want it (requirements, consequences), whatever
| that means, you find some contradiction. But it took me some
| practice to be honest with myself and eliminating wishful
| thinking.
|
| Accepting reality as it is, is huge. When you have in your
| head that if you spend time doing A you can't be doing B
| during this time, or that you can't achieve goal without
| going through steps you think are necessary, there really is
| not much left to do. Whatever you choose is fine, it's what
| you want.
|
| E.g. I used to be thinking "I don't want to clean the
| kitchen, I have more interesting ideas for my life". Right
| now, it's a simple choice - don't clean the kitchen and have
| it dirty or clean it and have it cleaned up. Both are fine.
| Debugging gets complex when you have other people involved in
| your life etc but it still drops to the same thing.
|
| Life's too short for telling yourself that you don't want to
| be doing what you are doing.[1]
|
| If you take it deep enough, with our current understanding of
| the universe, there is no objective argument that working on
| renewable energy is better than watching youtube all day.
|
| OK, I'm quitting this topic on HN, I've been selling this
| idea in many of my comments lately, just because it made my
| life so much better, but it's too verbose.
|
| Btw if somebody knows this kind of thinking from a different
| source I would appreciate some pointers, because I'm sure I'm
| not the first one to come up with this but I haven't stumbled
| upon it yet and I would much prefer to point people to that
| direction.
|
| 1. And just to be clear I'm not ignoring very difficult
| situations that people are in saying that people are always
| doing what they want. The situation is difficult, whether
| that's hunger, war, illness or death. But that's reality.
| Given that terrible situation you decide to do something (or
| do nothing). It's what you decide, it's what you want.
| Telling yourself that you want to do something else that's
| not possible in that salutation is just wishful thinking.
| Wishful thinking is pure suffering. I strongly suggest
| stopping whatever you're doing if you think you don't want to
| be doing it and either stop doing that or fix the
| contradiction in your head.
|
| No more verbose life views from comboy.
| jodi wrote:
| > Btw if somebody knows this kind of thinking from a
| different source I would appreciate some pointers, because
| I'm sure I'm not the first one to come up with this but I
| haven't stumbled upon it yet and I would much prefer to
| point people to that direction.
|
| I just finished the book Four Thousand Weeks: Time
| management for mortals. Similar thinking in that a lot of
| suffering and procrastination is caused by not accepting
| the reality of our finite time on earth, that we can never
| do it all, and we have to make tough choices and most
| people try avoid the anxiety of facing those by distracting
| themselves. I loved the book, and your comment, as
| refreshing take on "productivity" but I recognize it's also
| extremely difficult for many people to practice.
| technovader wrote:
| I can relate to this.
|
| My understanding is you're addicted to dopamine.
|
| You need a dopamine fast. Just take away all your dopamine
| sources for a 1 day, or 1 week. And then self reflect on its
| effects on you.
|
| The repeat it every once in a while or whenever you need it.
|
| 1 day a week. Or 1 week per month. Something like that.
|
| You've encouraged me to do the same. I'm very unhappy with my own
| addiction to youtube and social media. Though its more like 2
| hours per day maybe
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Did you actually read the OP? The author describes times when
| they abstained from Reddit/YouTube and going cold turkey.
| sosuke wrote:
| OP shoot me an email if you want a sounding board from someone
| who is just a step or two ahead on the same path. Email is in
| profile.
| ghotli wrote:
| I read a lot of the advice already on this comment thread but I
| have a fairly different take based on the path I've weaved
| through this world so far.
|
| You're in control, the end. Give yourself grace when you find
| that you've strayed from your target. Classify things into
| "Crisis" and "Not A Crisis" and set up daily, hourly, etc
| redirections to knock out whatever falls into the crisis bucket
| before anything else.
|
| As for me, my path has been from just how the author describes
| the feeling to fairly functional. Years of anguish, piles of
| notes on how to act vs actually acting any different. My
| suggestion to you is to write down a morning routine that
| redirects you into taking care of what will cause you anguish up
| front if not taken care of.
|
| I've personally written software for me that literally text-to-
| voice's reminders and redirections to an earbud my morning
| routine tells me to put in first thing. Second thing says to
| enable "repeat mode" so it can chime in with redirections.
|
| If you want something lightweight just on your PC that does the
| same thing, alter this bash one-liner to your heart's content.
| It's osx specific but there are other ways / commands to do this
| on linux or otherwise. I've personally written an android
| launcher / service that does this so I can have it while I walk
| around in the world but isn't in a state yet that would work for
| others. Hopefully this will help keep you on target. :D
|
| while true; do say --rate 230 --voice Daniel "Stay on target";
| sleep 18; done;
| aritmo wrote:
| OP, when you were growing up, was TV your main entertainment?
| Fewer social interactions but many more hours on TV?
|
| It might be a learnt behavior that you have to unlearn. Perhaps
| look how to unlearn something, if such a thing exists.
| spawarotti wrote:
| I've been struggling with the same problem and found a solution
| that works for me. I was procrastinating up to 8 hours per day,
| on average.
|
| The core idea is to make a contract with oneself to not exceed a
| daily budget of procrastination and implement it. Say, 4 hours
| per day, on average. Everything else follows from it.
|
| There are few critical components to make this work:
|
| 1. You need to admit you have a problem that needs fixing. If you
| procrastinate so much, quite possibly you are depressed. Like,
| for realz. That's OK.
|
| 2. Self-understanding that this is a matter of survival. Either
| you will make this work, or your life will be truly miserable, up
| to and including destroying your career, relationships and
| health.
|
| 3. Comprehensive time tracking. If you were watching a YouTube
| video while eating and spent extra 5 minutes to finish off the
| video after you were done with your meal, you need to track these
| 5 minutes. If you pick up your phone in bed just to quickly
| scroll through pages for 3 minutes, you need to track it. I use
| Excel for that - very fast & easy if you know the right keyboard
| shortcuts.
|
| 4. You need to do the tracking _yourself_. This is to (a)
| increase awareness you procrastinated and (b) introduce friction
| to doing it.
|
| 5. Social accountability. I have a weekly session with a coach
| where I report if I stayed within the quota, or not. But anybody
| you don't want to disappoint will do.
|
| 6. You are good as long as you stay within the budget. If you
| spend the time you reclaimed by laying on the couch and looking
| at the ceiling for 3 hours - that's a huge win. More on that
| below.
|
| 7. As always, you cannot neglect your fundamentals: sleep,
| exercise, proper diet, socializing. But now you will have time to
| deal with it.
|
| Once you implement this process, few observation immediately come
| to mind:
|
| 1. You have so much more time and mental energy. Wow.
|
| 2. If you fail to track these short 3-5 minute burst of
| procrastination, they quickly add up to half an hour, an hour,
| two hours. Hence, you really cannot slip on that. If you slip,
| you also won't be able to trust yourself, which is critical.
|
| 3. You become bored with that extra time, meaning you finally
| have time to think and talk to yourself. I cannot overstate how
| important that is. You can use this time to direct your thoughts
| / visualize better outcomes and hence motivate yourself to do the
| right thing (aka Cognitive Behavioral Therapy).
|
| 4. Once you keep doing it successfully for some time, you can now
| trust yourself that you are in control. This is huge, because
| your emotions now will be on your side.
|
| 5. You become less afraid of doing productive things, because you
| actually have time to do them, instead of thinking "what's the
| point, I have 1 hour in the day left after wasting all of it, I
| am tired, and I will give into my procrastination cravings
| anyway".
|
| 6. You will sleep way more because now you cannot procrastinate
| in bed. This will repay your sleep debt and restore your energy
| levels, making everything else much easier to tackle.
|
| Overall, this strategy works for me very well because (a) I
| admitted to myself I have a problem that is very serious. This
| means I need to seek help and develop a process to solve it. And
| (b) I don't mind doing comprehensive time tracking of my
| procrastination time, which is a critical part of the entire
| process.
|
| Further reading:
|
| "Digital Minimalism" by Cal Newport
|
| "Feeling Good" by David D. Burns
| scotty79 wrote:
| I gamed a lot (I think 6-8h per day) but little more than a month
| ago I just stopped. Funny thing is my life didn't change. I'm
| still not any more creative or achieving anything. I just watch
| more youtube, 9gag and other random sites. I watch some TV
| series. I just replaced one filler with another. If I ban those I
| probably move to reading SF books and doing Sudoku or Solitaire
| or buying and putting together Lego's.
|
| Your habits are not the problem by themselves. The problem is
| that your body and mind believes you have nothing better to do.
| Even though you can reason that there are other things worth
| doing your emotional self just doesn't buy it.
| goy wrote:
| This is a global phenomenon ... Almost any teenager or persons in
| their early twenties have a similar life. Maybe engage in an
| organisation where you simply cannot live like that (the army,
| etc) for a while ?
| Vxbrown wrote:
| bstar77 wrote:
| It seems like the OP had/has an addiction to gaming videos (the
| only hint was something about esports). I think about this a
| lot... is all video content considered equal if you had a near
| addiction level affinity for it?
|
| Watching Fortnite/Minecraft/Roblox videos all night is a zero sum
| activity... you might get better at the that particular game, but
| it's a useless skill for 99.999% of us (child labor issues
| aside). On the other hand, if you use that time learning an
| actual skill or absorbing general useful information, I think
| there might be an argument that it's time well spent.
|
| When we are young, we have an incredible ability to grind on
| things, especially when sleep deprived. As we get older, that
| becomes much harder and our productivity inevitably falls. I'm
| finding more and more that I have to go with my bursts of
| motivation when it hits and ride that wave as far as possible. A
| little sleep depravation here and there isn't an issue.
|
| All of this falls apart when your life is negatively impacted and
| you are not adequately managing your health, responsibilities
| and/or achieving your goals. To sum it up, I don't think an
| "addiction" to useful information is a bad thing. We live in an
| unprecedented time of nearly limitless access to information. To
| have someone not only tell you the information you want to know,
| but also demonstrate it is game changing. Addictions are bad, but
| watching Youtube can lead to incredible learning momentum.
| Achieving that with a balanced life is something I personally
| strive for.
| curuinor wrote:
| I wrote a dealio a bit back which was pretty popular here on
| reducing addiction to the internet by diluting it via latency,
| like it's harder to get addicted to small beer than to liquor.
| People thought when they were voting for prohibition a century
| ago that they were voting for banning liquor and leaving beer
| alone: I tend to think _that_ idea wasn't so incredibly bad,
| actually
|
| https://howonlee.github.io/2020/02/12/I-20Add-2020-20Seconds...
|
| I've been annoyed for a good while that online videos seem to be
| pretty resistant because of their variable lengths to the per-
| request futzing I've been doing. I probably need to get a pihole
| and inject latency at network level on streaming stuff, too, but
| this is pretty complicated and I have flatmates
| hericium wrote:
| For me, a major part of ADHD management consists of forcing
| myself to do something, multiple times a day. It's work,
| learning, chores-like tasks, sport, hygiene, regular sleep, cold
| morning shower, unprocessed food preparation - pretty much
| everything that isn't immediately pleasurable.
|
| I'm "unhappy" multiple times a day when I start doing something
| that doesn't usually have to be done right away. But it's often a
| choice not between doing something now or later, but doing
| something now, not never.
|
| However weirdly this may sound - I constantly do things against
| myself, for myself. I don't get much satisfaction from finishing
| those tasks but my life quality has increased drastically and I
| wouldn't go back from moments of discomfort to an ongoing
| discomfort.
| Gelitio wrote:
| Same same.
|
| I think I'm a highly functional adha person due to my mom being
| a very responsible person and also I started taking Ritalin 12
| years ago.
|
| I'm always wandering how it feels for normal people who get
| there shit done without any meds.
|
| I also want to do fire because all those responsibilities and
| the fighting feels exchausting.
| np- wrote:
| > how it feels for normal people who get there shit done
|
| My perspective is that once I took a step back and really
| looked, I noticed almost nobody is getting ANY shit done, and
| perhaps that's OK. I was just holding myself to unreasonable
| standards of what "shit done" is that I don't hold other
| people to and that was the root cause of my exhaustion.
| Society progressing is really just a series of extremely tiny
| things with the occasional rare major event pushed up to
| human population scale, something that one individual can't
| compete against without burning out.
|
| I'm not saying there are absolutely no people out there who
| are actually getting shit done and making it look easy, and
| somehow never burning out, but they are by far the exception
| and in no way "normal" people (and in many cases they are
| ticking time bombs, but the fallout may be well hidden)
| 121789 wrote:
| Oh wow this resonates - I'm exactly the same. I basically try
| to minimize the time I spend thinking on most things. I have to
| consciously tell myself "I'm going to stop thinking and just do
| this task". It's amazing how when you do this, all of the
| sudden all of the stuff that's on the back of your mind
| (chores, exercise, etc) just get done in time and your anxiety
| goes away
| p5v wrote:
| One more confirmation that our mission with Murmel
| (https://murmel.social) is on the right track. I want to see a
| world where people spend less tiem on social media (doom
| scrolling on Twitter, in particular), and more tiem outseide, or
| with friends and family.
| bsnal wrote:
| There are many things that I think that I should blanket ban, but
| I refuse to do so because blanket banning something makes me feel
| like that that something _won_. It makes me feel completely out
| of control.
| vitabenes wrote:
| Okay, this might get downvoted, but posts like this are exactly
| why my co-founder wrote a big series on addiction in general and
| Internet addiction in particular.
|
| For what it's worth, here it is:
| https://www.deprocrastination.co/blog/what-is-addiction
|
| Happy to answer any comments, questions, etc
| mythrowaway49 wrote:
| For others that have problems with this, there is an Internet and
| Technology Addicts Anonymous group that has helped me quiet a
| bit. See here: https://internetaddictsanonymous.org/
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| There's a lot of good literature and help out there.
|
| I wrote this [1] specifically to help you understand some of
| what's going on - well, at least some views for those of us who
| feel passionate about technology but sometimes have unhealthy
| relationships with it.
|
| You already touch on many of the issues in your post. I have
| submitted lists of other books here too (search through my
| history for Cal Newport for example) that deal with tech overuse,
| addiction, hoarding and so on. Hope it's useful.
|
| [1] https://digitalvegan.net
| varispeed wrote:
| Your post tells me you may be suffering from ADHD. Consider
| reading this book: Delivered from Distraction: Getting the Most
| Out of Life with Attention Deficit Disorder Paperback - 27 Dec.
| 2005 by M D Edward M Hallowell M D (Author), John J Ratey
| (Author)
|
| If it strikes a chord, think of seeing your doctor about this.
| tarunreddy wrote:
| Hi guys OP here. I abstained all day (yay!) until I was going to
| bed :( I've read through most comments here and want to clarify a
| few things
|
| 1. I tried to get diagnosed with adhd but my doc just prescribed
| me some meds (amphetamines I think). They seemed like they would
| work until the effect wore off and I stopped taking them.
|
| 2. I have never abused any drug in the past.
|
| 3. I know this is a non issue for a lot of you guys and rightly
| so. I know I'm well off compared to a lot of real drug addicts.
|
| 4. I'm kinda depressed I think?
|
| After a day of reflecting, speaking to my grandparents, spending
| time in a ceremony with my parents, and at the end of the day
| compulsively opening hn (I didn't expect this post to have any
| comments, addiction just took over), I can say a few things
| (before forgetting them!).
|
| Firstly, I had a lot of time on my hands today and spending it on
| personal relations has been good. And secondly staying away from
| my room in general is positive. Being alone in my room is almost
| certainly a negative. I want to practice programming and do
| projects before my masters so I don't know how Ill deal with it.
| I'll reply to other comments once I wake up. Its almost 2am now!
|
| Thanks for all the comments and advice!
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2022-05-19 23:02 UTC)