[HN Gopher] The impact of childhood lead exposure on adult perso...
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The impact of childhood lead exposure on adult personality (2021)
Author : tokai
Score : 103 points
Date : 2022-05-18 14:24 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.pnas.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.pnas.org)
| munk-a wrote:
| Just to make sure everyone is aware - this isn't a solved issue
| of the past. Airplanes continue to use leaded gasoline that,
| while much smaller relative to everyone's car running on it,
| contributes to higher than healthy lead in our environment.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| In what sense does it contribute? Yes, putting any amount of
| lead into the atmosphere is bad, but it isn't so bad if it is
| so dilute that it is basically background levels. I'd imagine
| low quality lead pipes, and fruit juice, are a much bigger
| cause of high lead levels than small plane engines.
| stefan_ wrote:
| There is no safe limit for lead other than zero, and there is
| no reason for these planes to continue using lead other than
| it being an externality.
| klyrs wrote:
| As somebody who grew up living under the flightpath of a busy
| airport and always appreciated the variety of small craft
| flying overhead, I happen to think that this is a pretty big
| deal. About two blocks away from my house was what we called
| "the ghetto." The correlation among lead, poverty, violence,
| and racialized populations is a major character in the story
| of american politics.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| Have you had your blood lead levels checked? Are they
| elevated?
| klyrs wrote:
| The half-life of bloodborne lead is about 28 days
| (according to first google hit) and I moved out many
| years ago; I think I'd need a bone sample or something to
| find a signal.
| Sakos wrote:
| In a way that results in higher (or even similar?) exposure to
| lead compared to when everybody had cars running on it? For
| your average person? I'm gonna need hard numbers for that.
|
| Okay, for the people who can't read between the lines and just
| resort to downvoting instead of actually being useful in a
| conversation.
|
| 1) The article is about childhood lead exposure on adult
| personalities.
|
| 2) He makes a comment about aviation and its current use of
| leaded gasoline ("contributes to higher than healthy lead in
| our environment") with the warning "this isn't a solved issue
| of the past".
|
| 3) This implies that the aviation industry and its use of
| leaded gas is in any way comparable to what we had before when
| _everybody_ had daily contact with leaded gas.
|
| 4) Nobody has yet provided any evidence of the fact that
| aviation results in any appreciable exposure to lead for your
| average citizen.
|
| 5) This matters because the original article _is not_ about
| environmental impact. It 's about childhood exposure.
|
| How is this so hard? I seriously question the ability of your
| average HNer to make logical deductions.
| dEnigma wrote:
| No, of course not. But that's also not what OP claimed.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| No, not even close. To portray otherwise is right up there
| with the people screeching about radiation exposure on the
| order of spending a day working outside.
|
| The lead exposure as a result of stuff your daily life (which
| is mostly a reflection of the history of where you live and
| work) contributes far more than avgas in the atmosphere.
| Unless you live downwind of a busy GA airport and have
| managed to get all other
| munk-a wrote:
| Just to clarify on #3 - from my original post: "while much
| smaller relative to everyone's car running on it". I didn't
| imply that the lead levels were equal or near to levels when
| everyone's car was running on it - I tried to state the exact
| opposite but, I'd clarify, the levels of lead in our
| environment is still well elevated from what it was prior to
| the introduction of leaded gasoline and lead is a heavy
| contaminant like mercury - it accumulates in your body and
| causes cumulative damage.
|
| And to point #5 - the levels present in our environment
| directly contribute to how much childhood exposure you'll
| suffer.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| They said "higher than healthy" not "higher than when
| everyone's car ran on it"
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| OK, but there's still the same question. What is the
| "healthy" ppb level of lead in air, and what is the
| concentration from avgas?
|
| Also, here's a plane flying at 4000 AGL. How much of the
| lead it puts out is going to affect the lead level at
| ground level? (I mean, it can raise the ppb of the entire
| atmosphere, which eventually affects everyone, but that's a
| _huge_ mass to affect.)
|
| It might matter for those living downwind and close to
| heavily-used private plane fields, though.
| tastyfreeze wrote:
| Only piston or radial engines use 100LL. Turbine engines are
| sucking down jet A which is kerosene. Turbines don't require
| lead as an anti knock additive.
| UniverseHacker wrote:
| Lead is still everywhere, not just aviation fuel. About 35% of
| homes in the USA still have lead paint, which creates lead dust
| when doors and windows open/close, and lead in the soil where
| kids play outside. A large fraction of homes still have lead-
| soldered drinking water supply pipes. Lots of toys, food cans,
| and vinyl window blinds also still contain and expose kids to
| lead.
| warent wrote:
| Do you have references to these claims? I'm not saying it's
| impossible but this shocking and much higher / more prevalent
| than I would've thought
| munk-a wrote:
| HUD[1][2] is the source for the 35% of households figure.
|
| 1. https://www.gao.gov/blog/2018/06/20/lead-paint-in-
| housing
|
| 2. Here's a better source actually:
| https://www.hud.gov/sites/documents/AHHS_REPORT.PDF
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| Yeah. We still have lead in homes, for example an estimated
| 85k households in Baltimore have lead exposure:
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/left_urbanism/comments/uj8y70/an_es.
| ..
| _Adam wrote:
| I measured the concentration of lead in the hot water from my
| kitchen faucet. My plumping is copper with lead solder, so I
| expected some but not too much.
|
| The result was 105 ppb. This is insane when you consider that
| Flint's level was 20 ppb during the crisis.
|
| The cold water should be zero, but I installed a lead filter
| to ensure this.
|
| Lead testing is pretty cheap and there are usually a lot of
| labs around big cities. Highly recommend water testing even
| if you don't think you have the risk factors.
| Heston wrote:
| Those levels are likely not coming from the lead solder but
| from the supply line to your house
| StillBored wrote:
| Thats sorta crazy for just lead solder. City water? What is
| the ph? Cause most of the city systems run the ph slightly
| basic to assure the water isn't trying to etch the pipes,
| and that also keeps the lead from leaching. That was
| actually the problem in flint, they let the water system ph
| get to low and it started to leach out of the pipes which
| is why originally they denied there was a problem (testing
| the water at the source).
| Melatonic wrote:
| Shit. I live in a VERY old building (built in 1916). No
| idea what type of pipe they were using. I already do have a
| good lead filter on my kitchen faucet.
|
| Are you worried about exposure from things like showering
| and brushing your teeth?
| derbOac wrote:
| FWIW, we lived in a house built around 1912 and we're
| worried about it, but did lots of testing and things were
| fine. I think it depends a lot.
| repiret wrote:
| Lead soldered copper didn't become popular until the
| 1960's or 70's. Before that it would have been galvanized
| pipes threaded together.
| maxerickson wrote:
| Running the water for a bit should flush the standing water
| in the pipes (which if the lead is coming from your pipes
| will reduce the lead). Has to be done regularly before
| consumption to matter of course.
| tablespoon wrote:
| > Lead testing is pretty cheap and there are usually a lot
| of labs around big cities. Highly recommend water testing
| even if you don't think you have the risk factors.
|
| Could you tell me what you used to do the testing?
| nosianu wrote:
| Here in Germany I tested twice. Once, I took one of
| several online providers who send you a test kit - I
| think it was some 20 Euros or something similar - and you
| follow the procedure they give you and send the test kit
| back. You get an email and a website with the result
| after a few days. This is just for your own information,
| you cannot use such results in court, for example.
|
| Another time I asked my local city water lab. They had no
| procedure for some random guy from the public, since
| those other companies exist and already make it
| convenient, but they still did not even try to send me
| away and the big lab boss himself handled my case,
| explaining the procedure and all, and taking the water
| samples back from me. Price was similarly little.
|
| By the way, that second time I tested a very commonly
| sold entry-level Italian portafilter machine, a Rancilio
| Silvia with a brass boiler that even today contains lead.
| Following the sampling procedure I had agreed upon with
| the lab boss as the correct one the lead values I got
| back significantly exceeded the limits. And about those
| limits, the _medical limit_ is zero. That the official
| limit is higher is because our society is unable to get
| us to that desirable level.
|
| .
|
| By the way, a good chelator for lead is DMSA, which is
| produced very cheaply in China. Russians produce
| "Unithiol" (DMPS) which is best against mercury, and
| somewhat good against lead (and a lot of other stuff). I
| actually got Russian Unithiol even though DMPS also is
| produced here in Germany as "Dimaval". I never used EDTA
| derivatives for chelation, but I have many years of..
| experience with DMSA and DMPS. See somewhere in my
| comment history. That is why I took lead a bit more
| seriously and why I tested my portafilter machines. I now
| have an Ascaso Steel Uno PID whhere the manufacturer took
| great care to eliminate anything that could be
| problematic in all components - plus, it's a _really_
| good portafilter machine :)
| koboll wrote:
| Very interested in this as well
| wonderwonder wrote:
| Imagine what the lifelong prospects for the Flint kids are going
| to be. Baltimore, Chicago, Detroit, Milwaukee, Newark, New York,
| Pittsburgh, Washington, D.C all have high lead levels in their
| drinking water. These cities are often associated with minority
| violence but what if its all a direct result of high lead levels
| and the cities / states failing the vulnerable people that live
| there.
| [deleted]
| elhudy wrote:
| Pnas.org though? Really?
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| Anyone else curious about whether their spouse might have been
| exposed to lead?
| andi999 wrote:
| The insane thing is that this has been known for a long time.
| Bavaria banned lead pipes in 1878 (not a typo).
| anyfoo wrote:
| I'm from Bavaria, and I was absolutely furious when I learned a
| few months ago that, living in San Francisco now, there is a
| real chance of lead exposure through pipes and paints. Our
| house was built in the 50s, so that increased those chances.
| And California has one of the _better_ regulations.
|
| Even so called "lead free" pipes were allowed to have
| significant lead content just a few decades ago!
|
| What you can do is, for $75 per faucet, get your water sampled
| and tested by the SF water department. We did that and got back
| the result that there was no lead in measurable quantities.
| This was a great relief. Our house looks fairly renovated, so
| they seem to have gotten rid of those pipes, too.
|
| This is the kind of thing that you just don't think about when
| moving to the US.
| daydream wrote:
| It is worth mentioning that it's straightforward to get paint
| tested for lead content too. Here in an older part of the US
| there are many companies that do testing. It costs a couple
| hundred dollars for a typical single family house and you can
| see the results immediately. Anyone in a house in the US
| built before the late 1970's or so that has children should
| consider it.
| anyfoo wrote:
| Thanks, we will do that. My wife thinks it's unlikely since
| we have no flaking paint anywhere, the windows are fairly
| new etc., but I think it's worth the peace of mind.
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| Focus on the wear spots, like door jams and window sills.
| Lead paint is fine as long as you keep it in good
| condition, but its hard to keep it in good condition if
| parts are rubbing against eachother.
|
| Also, the standard for contractors is to assume your
| paint has lead in it if the house was built before the
| late '70s. Even testing a whole house for lead paint is
| extremely expensive, and there's no central registry of
| lead results, so you're gonna have to test over, and
| over, and over.
|
| For water, just to add some extra safety, we installed a
| reverse osmosis water filter system for our refrigerator
| hookup, and removed the standard refrigerator one.
| anyfoo wrote:
| Oh geez. What does that mean in practice? If we see no
| flaking paint anywhere, are we safe? I am not sure about
| the basement. Is pulverized lead paint in the air a
| concern?
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| Condition and rubbing is the problem. If you have no
| rubbing or condition problems then you should be OK.
|
| If you're concerned about tracking it in from outside, or
| improper renovation, you can apply the tests to dust too,
| which is where any pulverized lead in the air would come
| from.
| [deleted]
| chucksta wrote:
| Lead paint is everywhere still, its not uncommon to be found
| on children's playgrounds still, on the equipment, not in the
| ground
|
| They closed 2 in Philadelphia, PA in 2019 for remediation
| https://www.inquirer.com/health/philadelphia-lead-
| playground...
|
| I hope you are aware of how we handled asbestos as well.
| anyfoo wrote:
| I am not. Wasn't it just ripped out?
|
| I remember in Germany in the 80s our elementary school got
| closed for a while, and the classes relocated temporarily,
| to rip out all the asbestos.
| deathanatos wrote:
| > _Wasn 't it just ripped out?_
|
| No. My apartment in CA was required to disclose to us
| that our apartment had asbestos in the ceiling. ( _And_
| lead in the paint. $2,700 /mo for the privilege!)
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| I went to a school which just had a stark warning on
| every wall not to disturb the asbestos
|
| guess i should check into if i'm eligble for cashing in
| one of those mesothelioma cheques at some point
|
| Anyways now you know why Americans seem a little 'off'
| robotburrito wrote:
| CA is always weird about this stuff. I constantly see signs
| and warning labels basically telling me that my apartment and
| the containers that my groceries are packaged in are giving
| me cancer. If it's such a big deal why not go further than
| just having a sign? What is the common person supposed to do
| with this information? Just live outside? Is it just so that
| everyone can say "well, we let them know."?
| entangledqubit wrote:
| At risk of compromising your relief slightly, from what I
| understand the lead measurements may change depending on the
| water chemistry flowing through the pipes (i.e. the lead may
| stay put wherever it is in the system but leech if the right
| water chemistry (which may still be within regulations) flows
| through).
|
| House pipes being changed is probably 90% of the worry
| anyway. If it was recently enough, you might be able to pull
| the original permits and get a better idea of what was
| replaced.
| anyfoo wrote:
| Would you expect the lead to be completely undetectable if
| that was the case? We did wait for more than 8 hours
| without using the lines, as instructed, before taking the
| sample.
| [deleted]
| jjazwiecki wrote:
| Under-appreciated factor in American politics. Boomers grew up
| soaking in lead, now they're the cohort with the highest voting
| participation. No wonder so many of them love politicians who
| preach lower conscientiousness, lower agreeableness, and higher
| neuroticism as a political philosophy.
| stainablesteel wrote:
| the entire world was on lead, some places worse than the us,
| and it's been a commonly recurring thing in the past couple
| thousand years of human history due to its use
|
| it seems to disagree with the microplastics that the kids are
| taking now
| theferalrobot wrote:
| > preach lower conscientiousness, lower agreeableness
|
| How conscientious and agreeable of you
| fallingfrog wrote:
| I had the same thought, but I feel a bit uncomfortable saying
| it without evidence. It's hard to say really, there could be
| other factors involved. I do know many boomers who are really
| good people, sensitive and intelligent.
| Clubber wrote:
| >No wonder so many of them love politicians who preach lower
| conscientiousness, lower agreeableness, and higher neuroticism
| as a political philosophy.
|
| Do you honestly believe GenX and Millennial politicians will be
| any different without some drastic change? When your generation
| produces the exact same corrupt politicians, maybe you will
| blame the actual political class who lies to get into office
| and breaks promises while enriching themselves at the expense
| of the taxpayer, instead of scapegoating a generation of
| people.
| InitialLastName wrote:
| From recent experience, the non-"political class" politicians
| don't seem to be that much better about enriching themselves
| in office.
| Melatonic wrote:
| Does anybody know of a good and affordable way to test lead in
| water levels? I want to test my tap water at various times and
| spouts (hot, cold, shower, etc) but all of the at home kits seem
| to be focused on testing lead paint and physical/dry items vs
| water testing. Or if I need to send results in to a lab are there
| any affordable ones out there that are recommended?
| CalRobert wrote:
| I can't speak to how rigorous they are but searching Amazon for
| "water test kit" shows a lot of results. I used some to test my
| own water for lead, pesticides, etc.
|
| Though I'd want a lab test to be sure.
| derbOac wrote:
| I've done this but it was with local labs. Depending where you
| are, there might be some in your area.
| burnout1540 wrote:
| Check out gosimplelab.com
| thriftwy wrote:
| We always talk about how the lead poisoning turns lower middle
| class into criminals, but I wonder what's the effect on the
| educated, affluent people who nontheless get the same exposure.
|
| I have a pet theory that Yeltsin, Chubais and the like ripped the
| Soviet state and economy apart out of the lead-induced haze and
| desire to vandalize, only they had not just a sorry bench to ruin
| but a whole country.
| reducesuffering wrote:
| Lead is actually still astonishingly everywhere: mugs (any color
| glaze), kids toys, old crystal, brass, stained glass, etc. The
| particulates still become dust and percolate the air. Reverse
| osmosis your drinking water costs $200-$300 for a kit. A relative
| had someone come in with this expensive lead-detector gun and
| over 3 hours found significant traces on 100 different things in
| the house. Just be generally suspicious of anything colored
| manufactured in China or old antiques.
| jeffxtreme wrote:
| (2021)
|
| Veritasium covers the story behind lead in gasoline in
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV3dnLzthDA, it's a really
| interesting albeit sad video.
|
| If I recall correctly, he mentions this study in the video.
| slowmovintarget wrote:
| The same story is covered in an episode of the newer run of
| Cosmos; S2E7.
|
| I thought the coverage there was better. Brief overview here:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yV__MkDqqo (it ends up being
| an ad for the show, but good summary, nevertheless).
| maicro wrote:
| And a far more irreverent (NSFW? but very entertaining, and
| moderately informational) video about the inventor:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4og8wG8VQWM&list=PL96C35uN7x...
| CalRobert wrote:
| In time, I wonder if lead gas in the US will be written about
| like lead pipes in Rome.
| fallingfrog wrote:
| Almost certainly. In fact our problem may be significantly
| worse.
|
| https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/oa.3001
|
| In particular look at this graphic:
|
| https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/cms/asset/ca143408-881b-4b17...
| Melatonic wrote:
| Supposedly many lead pipes actually when even somewhat older
| will be coated on the inside with crap that prevents most lead
| exposure. New pipes for sure sound like a problem
| UI_at_80x24 wrote:
| We haven't even learned the lesson of lead in our pipes yet.
| Sure we shouldn't use it, but my house still has lead pipes
| running from the street upto the house. SlumLord refuses to do
| anything about it, and threatens to sell if we "make a big deal
| about it".
|
| Flint MI, is still suffering with lead pipes too.
|
| Yes, I hope we are ridiculed for our use of lead in gasoline &
| pipes. But the real outrage is how these criminal CONTINUE to
| get away with it.
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| Wouldn't threatening to sell involve having to disclose he's
| got lead pipes and lead to a need for remediation?
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| I wonder what the effect of chelation (EDTA) has on personality
| then.
| mataug wrote:
| > Chelation therapy is of limited value for cases of chronic
| exposure to low levels of lead
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning#Treatment
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| It's probably dumb overconservatism, the issue with chelators
| is that they are often rushed. You can distill low amounts of
| edta for a longer duration in order to reduce toxicity. Also
| the following deficits (e.g in zinc) should be supplemented
| obviously. Moreover there are underused synergies
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21649453/
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| Blood Lead Levels in early childhood are also predictive of
| stunting, a serious developmental disorder with lifelong
| consequences that include immune function issues.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31031640
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