[HN Gopher] Japanese audio brand Onkyo files for bankruptcy
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Japanese audio brand Onkyo files for bankruptcy
Author : ksec
Score : 231 points
Date : 2022-05-15 15:47 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (asia.nikkei.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (asia.nikkei.com)
| awsrocks wrote:
| I grew up on onkyo audio. bummer.
| rixrax wrote:
| I feel that the AV-receiver market has gone the way of the DSLR
| market. Compact speaker systems like Sonos (that don't need a
| separate AVR) simply got good enough. Thus the need for buying a
| separate AVR to drive your Dolby / DTS / etc. setup has all but
| vanished except maybe for the most determined audiophiles (and
| even most of these would do well to simply get a compact wireless
| speaker setup instead of some monstrosity that they can hardly
| ever enjoy...because too small of a listening room, and
| neighbours).
|
| I'm not saying market for Onkyo, Denon, Sony, Yamaha, etc. AVRs
| is a goner, but I am suggesting it may have peaked and that going
| forward there will be less and less demand for AVRs, especially
| in the low/mid range of things.
| Fwirt wrote:
| It all comes down to demand I guess... Most people seem to like
| Beats headphones or think their Airpods have top quality sound
| and don't care that $200 headphones exist that blow them out of
| the water. Most people use bluetooth with low quality codecs
| that distort the sound. In addition, most people listen to
| their music on streaming services that compress the heck out of
| tracks that are already heavily (dynamic range) compressed. So
| it's a case of (a) people never having been exposed to "hi-fi"
| and (b) people ceasing to care/being willing to sacrifice audio
| quality (which is heavily subjective anyway) for convenience.
| So it is the same as phone cameras, people are willing to
| sacrifice image quality and control for the convenience of
| having a camera in their pocket all the time.
|
| I personally care about audio to a _reasonable_ degree, but I
| also think that AVRs in their current form are a weird mix of
| "too much" and "not enough". I wanted to have a 5.1.2 system
| that wasn't a soundbar with tiny, tinny speakers that bounce
| off the ceiling and a tiny sub that moves hardly any air. But
| in order to drive decent speakers you need a decent amp. But in
| order to get a decent amp you have to buy a unit that has a
| million connectors, spatial audio processing, etc. Out of the
| gigantic array of connectors on the back of my AVR, (7 HDMI
| ports, phono plugs, component, composite) I am currently using
| 3 HDMI ports because I play most media off an HTPC anyway. I
| feel like I'm using less than 30% of what it has to offer, and
| there is a growing divide between people who want convenience
| and people who want uncompromising quality at any cost, so low
| end AVRs aren't much better than a soundbar, and high end AVRs
| aren't affordable for the average consumer.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| I built modern thing a little like the old console stereo
| units. Used high end full-range drivers for the
| left/center/right and built in a sub. The thing looks like
| furniture but has your 3.1 covered. I think there's a Yamaha
| receiver in there but it isn't too crazy with regards to
| connectors and such.
|
| I like to think the console stereo could come back for people
| who want higher quality speakers/audio.
| initplus wrote:
| Streaming services don't compress dynamic range, rather the
| opposite - because every streaming service employs loudness
| normalization the loudness wars have largely ended.
| Compressing your track to hell in an effort to get it to
| sound louder doesn't work anymore because every streaming
| service will just normalize it anyway.
|
| Spotify at least uses 320kbps vorbis for their "high quality"
| setting which is at the point where I don't believe it's
| humanly possible to distinguish from a lossless encoding.
| PaulDavisThe1st wrote:
| > Compressing your track to hell in an effort to get it to
| sound louder doesn't work anymore because every streaming
| service will just normalize it anyway.
|
| This is a bit of confused remark. "Normalization" means
| applying some constant gain factor to the signal so that
| the loudest level is 0dBFS. Compression applies a varying
| gain factor to the signal to meet some parameters.
| Normalizing audio will generally make it louder (unless the
| loudest level is already at 0dBFS), but it does not change
| the dynamic range of the signal. The "loudness wars" were
| all about using compression, and this does change the
| dynamic range of the signal (you end up with less
| difference between the quietest and loudest parts of the
| signal - hence the term compression).
|
| You can still "sound louder" by using compression, even if
| the peak volume is still 0dBFS.
| initplus wrote:
| Modern volume normalization isn't done based on the
| highest peak of the track. Instead they normalize based
| on the average perceived loudness of the whole track (to
| a level below 0 so there is headroom for peaks). It's
| intentionally designed to avoid the exact issue you
| describe.
|
| If this was not done users of streaming services would
| have to be constantly adjusting the volume to deal with
| perceived volume differences between tracks due to
| different levels of dynamic range compression.
| whyoh wrote:
| >"Normalization" means applying some constant gain factor
| to the signal so that the loudest level is 0dBFS.
|
| Not necessarily, although that has been perhaps the most
| common use of that term so far. But you can normalize to
| a lower peak level or to something else...
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_normalization
| leokennis wrote:
| I've been a headphone mid-fi buyer for at least 15 years now
| (think Denon AH-D2000, B&W P5 etc.) and it's just also the
| case that lower-fi audio has greatly improved.
|
| The sound quality AirPods or the Samsung buds deliver are
| simply very very competent for the price. They're good
| sounding, convenient, dependable.
|
| Contrast to the crap you used to get included with your iPod
| or the entry level IEM's that were 99% bass and 100% ear pain
| and snapped cables.
|
| It's not that people enjoy crap these days. It's just that
| previously you needed to spend Onkyo levels of money to get
| decent sound, and these days a lot less.
| moralestapia wrote:
| >Compact speaker systems like Sonos (that don't need a separate
| AVR) simply got good enough.
|
| I don't like em. I am not the stereotypical smug audiophile but
| the sound on most of these new systems, soundbars, headphones,
| etc... is absolute trash.
|
| Any pair of moderately-decent bookshelf speakers blows them out
| of the water and you can get them for ~300USD so they're
| actually cheaper than "high-end" speakers from brands like
| Bose, Sonos, etc... which sound terrible IMO.
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| Are there any of those compact speaker systems that actually
| sound good, though?
| dagw wrote:
| Are there any $15 wines that taste good or $500 DSLRs that
| can shoot good video footage or $50 dress shirts that look
| good? For most people the answer is obviously yes, and for
| some the answer is obviously no. And the one group will never
| convince the other group that they are wrong.
| msh wrote:
| Most people think so. Audio nerds don't.
| overcast wrote:
| No. You can't change physics. What usually suffers is the
| midrange(woofer) because everything is tiny. So you get high
| frequencies, and then usually some paltry subwoofer. There is
| no replacement for displacement.
| jay_kyburz wrote:
| This!. I've been searching for a set of speakers for my
| lounge room with a nice big cone in them, but I just cant
| find that is not priced for audiofiles. I have been looking
| second hand, but everything I can find is over 40 years old
| and the cones have all started disintegrating.
| overcast wrote:
| Yeh, unfortunately you're going to have to spend some
| bucks for quality. I'm still using my fathers 50 year old
| ESS Model 5's in my upstairs office and they sound
| amazing. Original woofers too! I just refoamed them,
| easy. I love the sound of the HEIL air motion
| transformers.
|
| Downstairs is all Totem I bought 20 years ago.
| aurora72 wrote:
| Even the USB powered Logitech z120 which costs a few dollars
| sounds good enough even for movies.
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| I guess you watch movies where all the dialogue takes place
| over a telephone and there's no music?
| gog wrote:
| Sony HT-A9 (+ a sub) has been praised, but it is not cheap.
| philjohn wrote:
| Yes - the Sonos Arc + sub + 2 rear channels sounds amazing
| after using the built in sound tuning, and got a pretty damn
| good review in What HiFi.
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| That's one I've already listened to, and it's atrocious. It
| sounds like 1990s car speakers.
| bitL wrote:
| The main reason why I got a Marantz AVR was to be able to
| connect 10 different devices to the TV at 4k@60 via HDMI, as
| well as various sound outputs, including the output of my music
| studio mixer.
| m463 wrote:
| I think soundbars have taken over for home theater setups.
|
| annoyingly, you can't get a system without a wireless
| subwoofer.
|
| I have a soundbar that creates a wifi access point for the
| subwoofer and it's really annoying. I really just want a wire.
|
| So, I've been considering an a/v receiver and dedicated
| speakers, which means I can't mount them on the tv
| bjelkeman-again wrote:
| I am using my old Stereo, which has 5.1 support for the DVD
| and the TV. Way better than must friends soundbar. Maybe
| there are decent systems, but I doubt you can get as good as
| proper stereo stuff.
| alasdair_ wrote:
| Sonos still has severe limitations and I regret buying two 5.1
| setups from them.
|
| As a simple example: there is no 7.1 support at all and the
| Atmos support is a sort of faked 5.1.2 support where the upward
| firing speakers try to bounce some sounds off the ceiling.
|
| Sonos only supports 2.4GHz (no 5GHz support at all) so in a
| congested area network degradation is a big issue.
|
| Codec support is limited as well. For example if your source
| outputs in DTS, you may need to throw away the whole system and
| buy a different sonos system just to get audio working. The
| same thing applies to dolby atmos or vision - you need to buy
| new speakers just to listen to those type of sources.
| wctawcta wrote:
| I don't this contradicts the "gone the way of the DSLR
| market" claim. Sonos and similar systems are simply good
| enough for most people.
|
| Whether it's TVs, cameras, surround sound systems, we reached
| a point of diminishing returns by cramming in more pixels or
| speakers. At that point, you're competing on factors like
| convenience. There will still be markets for 7.1+ surround
| sound or DSLR cameras, but they're smaller now.
| givinguflac wrote:
| I just want to point out that while sonosnet is 2.4 only,
| most of their products support 5ghz APs. In addition, DTS
| support has been included for a little while now.
| leokennis wrote:
| Wait Sonos is 2.4Ghz only?
|
| Even my cheapo digital photo frame and my "need to make it
| cheap to turn a profit" ereader work on 5Ghz...
| devrand wrote:
| FWIW they do support DTS (but not DTS-HD) now.
| christoph wrote:
| Poor/late timing, as DTS is essentially dead at this
| point[1] in the streaming market which I'm guessing is
| generally what they are catering for.
|
| 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30942269
| kllrnohj wrote:
| If AVRs are DSLRs, then Sonos is Leica, not the iPhone. Sonos
| is the expensive option that found & cemented a niche audience
| on an experience.
|
| Soundbars are what's killing AVRs for what's left of the 'home
| theater' market. They're much easier to setup and deliver a
| good enough experience. For everyone else, it's laptops &
| tablets with maybe a pair of headphones.
| vgeek wrote:
| Pretty much this. Places like Parts-express have been creeping
| more upmarket with their own brands like Dayton Audio to fill
| some of the gap, but they are still more downmarket hobbyist
| niche and probably won't ever be in mass market stores. The
| same thing that happened to cameras being replaced by good
| enough phones happened to stereos, just with soundbar/box type
| appliances.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Yeah, used to buy a lot of stuff from Parts-Express (mainly
| full-range drivers) and made some nice speakers, etc.
| theandrewbailey wrote:
| I'm using a 7-year old Onkyo 7.1 surround sound system right now.
| It sounds great, but when you use the menus (like browse a DLNA
| server) or switch inputs (or something cuts out), there's a
| second or two lag on everything.
|
| I wish that AV receivers had USB inputs for PCs.
|
| "But Andrew," I hear you say: "Go to $store and search for
| receivers with USB ports. There's hundreds!"
|
| Those USB ports are for playing MP3s off a flash drive. A PC
| isn't a flash drive. Do you have a receiver like that? How do you
| connect a PC to it with USB?
| krueger71 wrote:
| I had an Onkyo 5.1 system in service from 2002 - 2018. Great
| stuff! First movie I watched on the system with a 28" CRT TV was
| "Driven" on DVD. Going from TV-speakers to a full set of speakers
| including subwoofer was amazing! Later on it serviced Blu-ray:s
| and a PS4 beautifully.
| yborg wrote:
| First receiver I ever bought was an Onkyo ... in 1985. It still
| works.
| chmod600 wrote:
| There's no doubt that, for a lot of people, there is just a
| better convenience/quality trade-off. I had a good size Onkyo
| system for watching movies and I configured it meticulously. But
| it's hard to explain to others why there is so much ceremony and
| bulk, especially when watching habits degenerate from immersive
| movies to binge watching netflix serieses.
|
| Part of the experience with hobbies is some kind of sacrifice
| along with the reward. The drive towards convenience takes away
| that sacrifice and makes me appreciate something a little less.
|
| It's like takeout and boxed wine, wearing a T-shirt; versus
| dressing up a bit, making a nice meal, and opening a bottle from
| a winery you visited. The former is ovjectively good and
| convenient, and all of the latter ceremony is a hassle that
| provides little benefit (you probably can't tell the boxed wine
| apart in a blind test).
|
| But... aren't we happier with the latter experience?
|
| I'm too lazy to "waste" time on that kind of happiness though.
| That's the sad part.
|
| I think if I'm motivated by others it's different. For instance,
| stuff like surfing/snowsports requires a significant hassle, and
| it's a lot easier to find people who will put up with that
| hassle.
| colordrops wrote:
| The problem is that there is no choice. There are no good
| receivers that have modern UIs with sane defaults. They just
| hacked on wifi and phone apps that do a horrible job papering
| over the complexity. Sonos tried to fix this but their hardware
| is woefully inadequate for theater quality setups.
| christoph wrote:
| Weirdly in the last couple of weeks we've been clearing out our
| house and I found three(!) Onkyo home cinema amp boxes in the
| attic. I don't own a single Onkyo amplifier anymore. Every
| single one got returned due to a serious fault (from suddenly
| producing no sound, to literal smoke coming out of it) within a
| year or 18 months, and typically swapped for another, slightly
| newer model Onkyo amp - rinse & repeat yearly. Their hardware
| from my experience was utter garbage. It had great features and
| UI, but literally went up in a puff of smoke on an annual
| basis. After three or four cycles I got fed up and changed to
| Yamaha. Unplugging a load of HDMI cables, speaker cables, re-
| running audio calibration, etc. is not something you enjoy
| repeating on an annual basis. I was always glad Richer Sounds
| (in the UK) have an unbelievably good returns policy. Even
| loaning me another amp FOC for a couple of months while Onkyo
| tried to repair one of them for me, before they gave up and
| just sent me a whole new higher end amp, free of charge.
|
| I've got two Yamaha amps, both at least 3+ years old which have
| never had a single fault. I've also got a Denon home cinema
| amp, just over two years old which has never had an issue. To
| be honest I'm surprised they were still in business, as it
| never seemed from home cinema forums that my story was that
| unique.
| darig wrote:
| movetheworld wrote:
| And here I am: still using my first receiver ever, an Onkyo.
| It's still runs great after being in use for over twenty(!)
| years. My Philips CD player won't open the tray and my Aiwa
| Cassette deck won't play any cassette, but my Onkyo is still
| kicking. Maybe the models from the recent years don't have
| the quality as it used to be.
|
| By the way, I just checked the backplate and it's an Onkyo
| TX-9031 RDS receiver from 1993 - time just flies ...
| christoph wrote:
| Isn't it lovely when you realise you have electronics that
| have lasted nearly three decades and are _still_ useful?
|
| Onkyo were always well known for packing cutting edge
| features into home cinema amps. They always had way more
| features and codec support than anyone else. Nobody else
| came close for "bang for buck", but they definitely had
| serious reliability issues.
|
| Thinking about it tonight, just having some slow spinning
| fans probably would have alleviated 90%+ of their issues.
| But I guess the "audiophiles" would have complained about
| that...
| mancerayder wrote:
| I had two very old receivers that lasted a number of years
| each. When the last one wouldn't stay on, I tried to then buy
| another Onkyo receiver. Somehow late last year but there was
| some insane shortage everywhere, and Best Buy was literally
| out of everything. Online also proved to be difficult.
|
| I therefore couldn't find another Onkyo to buy, and after
| some research I learned that those receivers (of various
| brands) with complicated A/V functions are the ones that have
| issues. I ended up getting a higher-end, but non-AV (meaning
| no HDMI) simple stereo receiver and have been happy so far.
| cookingrobot wrote:
| I bought an Onkyo 5.1 receiver at a garage sale yesterday for
| $5. This house I moved into has prewired surround speakers
| and I felt like I should take advantage.
|
| What a hassle though, I can't get audio flowing from the tv,
| can't get it to drive all the speakers, it runs super hot.
|
| It really seems like a hardware hobby more than a way to
| enjoy movies so far.
| layer8 wrote:
| I partly agree. Though once you _do_ have a working setup and
| know which buttons to press, there isn't a lot of inconvenience
| anymore, apart from being bound to the particular room.
|
| The problem for the industry is more that an important target
| group for them are A/V nerds who are never satisfied for long
| with their setup and are always looking for the next best thing
| to upgrade to, and which also serve as a multiplicator. And
| those are becoming fewer and fewer.
| TacticalCoder wrote:
| > Though once you do have a working setup and know which
| buttons to press, there isn't a lot of inconvenience anymore,
| apart from being bound the particular room.
|
| I was going to comment the same... I've got a quality stereo
| amp (bought used), great floorstanding loudspeakers, a little
| DAC. I set up everything once, making sure everything was
| correctly positioned. There's _one_ input I use on the amp:
| the DAC. I typically hook a MacBook Air to the DAC.
|
| There's zero inconvenience. There's a volume button and
| that's it.
|
| No updates. No wifi. No "smart" anything. Only a totally dumb
| setup that simply works.
| rob74 wrote:
| That's the problem though - the people who treat "listening
| to music" as an activity of its own are getting fewer and
| fewer. I listen to _a lot_ of music, but I mostly do it while
| commuting, while programming etc., not in the living room. I
| even have a good old stereo that 's served me well for over
| 20 years now (Sony, not Onkyo), but it mostly only serves as
| better PC speakers nowadays. I still play a CD on it
| occasionally though...
| leokennis wrote:
| I think "listening to music as an activity" and "buying,
| tweaking and upgrading expensive audio setups" are two
| separate activities that often overlap but do not require
| each other. As an example, I fiercely enjoy sitting on my
| couch with my eyes closed listening to full albums of the
| White Stripes or Stars of the Lid or Boards of Canada or
| Sufjan Stevens on my AirPods Max, streamed via Bluetooth
| from my iPhone. Every audiophile would laugh in my face
| because of the poor hifi choices I'm making.
|
| But I'm damn sure I'm really attentively listening to the
| music.
| christoph wrote:
| It's exactly this. "Audiophiles" are a weird bunch. Much
| of what they claim to hear is scientifically proven as
| total nonsense. Audio Science Review is a great place
| where they scientifically analyse audio equipment. The
| quality of speaker wire for all meaningful measurements
| is utterly irrelevant for instance.
|
| Realistically, as long as you are enjoying the art, how
| you are enjoying it should be irrelevant.
|
| I often make the point to people that a terrible movie
| will be terrible no matter how you watch it - HDR, 4K,
| Atmos won't make a difference. A crappy movie, will
| always be a crappy movie.
|
| The same with music, and inversely - a great song will
| still sound great and enjoyable on a really crappy car
| stereo.
| itsoktocry wrote:
| On one had, totally agree. The audiophile world is full
| of so much nonsense.
|
| On the other, a decent home theatre amplifier and set of
| speakers is going to blow away a sound bar. I think
| people who think "it all sounds the same" have never
| heard a really good stereo. I have an alright, but far
| from high end, stereo set up in a listening environment
| in my basement, and everyone I've ever listened to music
| with down there is blown away.
| christoph wrote:
| Absolutely. 100%. Last night we turned the "stereo" up
| really loud after Eurovision to listen to Mikas album for
| the first time in years - Full height Revel fronts,
| monitor audio rear effect speakers, dual subs, blasted
| it. I spent hours tuning curves on the Denon amp with an
| external microphone last year... Anyone that thinks a
| sound bar would sound anything like what we hear is
| honestly deluded. But, I also wouldn't spend much more
| money on it... it's way more than good enough for us...
| audiophiles would tell me I could spend another PS10k on
| equipment chasing another 1%, I'm not sure at this point
| it would deliver anymore intrinsic value. At a different
| token, two Sonos in Stereo in my kitchen are more than
| good enough while I'm cooking to listen to music and
| podcasts.
|
| I'd never, ever, want to see high end audio equipment
| die. When it all works together, the experience is truly
| sublime, engrossing and immersive like nothing else.
| chmod600 wrote:
| "Though once you do have a working setup ..."
|
| Yeah, I kept telling myself that, and it was true most of the
| time. But any time you need to add something (video game
| system brought by a friend, whatever), or some new tech comes
| along, it throws everything off. And sometimes you have to
| move, and it doesn't really work out as well in the new
| place.
|
| "And [AV nerds] are becoming fewer and fewer."
|
| Isn't that related to my point though? When convenient
| products get good enough to take the magic out of a hobby,
| where do the new recruits come from?
|
| A big driver for a hobby is being able to say (to yourself at
| least) that what you're doing is somehow better than what a
| layperson with a big wallet can do. That you're "the guy/gal"
| when it comes to this topic, perhaps surpassed by others
| who've also invested time.
|
| Thinking out loud... This is probably some kind of deep
| rooted social need for specialization/role in a tribe that
| gives a sense of importance. We have jobs, which are highly
| specialized, but nobody in our social circle really cares
| unless they have a very similar job.
| thaway2839 wrote:
| I think this is increasingly true of us as a society. We have
| been consistently elevating "ease of use" over every other
| objective and/or subjective quality.
|
| We've reached the point where easier is better, even if it is
| objectively worse.
|
| We are all settling for local maximum that are significantly
| lower than several other maxima because apparently making the
| effort to move further along the x-axis is now almost
| considered the worst thing one can do.
| tomatowurst wrote:
| expect more. Japan Inc. has been running on fumes for decades.
| The US only started 2 years ago, and will likely last another
| 20~40 years of stagnation.
| 01100011 wrote:
| Japan has a demographic crisis for sure. A weak Yen may
| actually help them stay competitive in the manufacturing space
| though.
| tomatowurst wrote:
| with inflation???
| benreesman wrote:
| Not saying your wrong, but why 2 years ago specifically?
| midislack wrote:
| When we started our quest to double, triple, even quadruple
| the money supply.
| codefreeordie wrote:
| The US has been talking about the "Japan [central bank]
| Model" as a model of success for much longer than two
| years.
|
| This meme first got really big in central-banking circles
| after the 2008 crash. Japan has been following this model
| for 35-40 years of managed-decline. The US has been toying
| with the same model for more like 10-15 years than 2-3
| suggested above.
|
| The US so far has managed its decline better, but not for
| nothing has "abundance agenda" become a meme lately even on
| the left -- as more and more people sense that managing the
| decline is the goal of current policy and they don't
| actually want to decline.
| ananonymoususer wrote:
| Managing decline is not a plan for survival. No matter
| what you think of Trump, this was one of his primary
| policy issues, and is the basis for the "Make America
| Great Again" slogan.
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| _Managing decline is not a plan for survival._
|
| And revanchism is? What Trump was trying to make happen
| "again" wasn't all that great the first time, except for
| those at the very top.
| adra wrote:
| The creedo has a more specific and probably incorrect
| message: " we are broken, we need to be fixed. (Implied)
| I'll fix things". It's easy to attract conservative
| minded people as a rally cry to your cause when you reach
| for a nostalgic rhetoric about "the good ol' days"
| fallacy. Much divergent from the often left leaning "we
| can build a better future" which should probably also be
| considered a fallacy.
|
| Back on topic, I don't think the electioneering slogan
| had any actual policy significance.
| benreesman wrote:
| I'm not very knowledgeable about this, but I have friends
| and family in the UK and traveled there monthly for
| years, so not zero context: and for a country that went
| from the largest empire ever to a minor great power at
| best in like 50 years, it seems like a pretty attractive
| place to live all things considered. It's got problems
| but not like 10x worse than any other developed nation.
|
| Do you happen to know how they managed that decline
| without worse consequences?
| adra wrote:
| The US has a healthy immigration system that brings in a
| consistent stream of workers and tax payers to support
| all the old people about to clog social assistance
| channels for decades. That's the strong trap that Japan
| has been stuck in for decades, and the one that'll start
| befalling China in a decade or so. It'll be interesting
| to see if Japan can escape the population deflation or if
| this is a constant shrinking population from here on out
| until it's untenable to continue as-is.
| Mountain_Skies wrote:
| Ponzi schemes are good at kicking the can down the road
| but when they eventually collapse, they're orders of
| magnitude worse than they would have been if the core
| problem the scheme was implemented to address was just
| addressed when it first became a problem.
| 14u2c wrote:
| The fact remains that the US is in a far better position
| to deal with aging demographics than the majority of
| Western countries. Immagration policy needs to be
| adjusted as soon as possible as to not squander this.
| countvonbalzac wrote:
| How hard would it be for them to just take their existing stereo
| and hook it up to alexa or sonos or some other existing streaming
| service. If the audio quality is good then quality + decent
| interface seems straightforward?
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| My circa-2015 Marantz receiver (NR1606) shipped with support
| for Airplay, Spotify, Pandora, and SiriusXM, so they've had
| decent connectivity with modern services for some time now. The
| UI isn't amazing but that's barely relevant since those
| services are typically streamed or controlled by a phone app.
| codetrotter wrote:
| There were Onkyo receivers with support for Spotify Connect for
| example.
| criddell wrote:
| I have one. It's a mini system (CS-N575) and it has both
| Spotify and Chromecast support but no AirPlay support.
|
| I bought it because I wanted a small system for my office
| that I could stream to or play CDs. It works, but I wouldn't
| really recommend it. It doesn't sound great. I thought about
| buying better speakers but then then I looked up the amp
| specs and saw 10% THD. I think it's just a mediocre system.
| bamboozled wrote:
| It's pretty hard for a lot of traditional Japanese companies to
| adapt it seems.
|
| Try using a Japanese bank when traveling, wow...
| boulos wrote:
| Many modern receivers support both Chromecast and Airplay, as
| well as some level of HomeKit / Google Home / Alexa
| integration.
|
| I think for Onkyo, they just fell in an awkward middle. Not as
| high end as Denon/Marantz/etc. and not as cheap as < cheapest
| thing you can find >. Combined with the drastic decrease in
| people "needing" receivers and speakers (many people now just
| get a sound bar, or Bluetooth speakers) and the market squeezed
| them.
| garyfirestorm wrote:
| Unfortunately AirPlay doesn't support Atmos music. Despite
| spending thousand dollar plus on a Denon and Klipsch setup, I
| quickly found out that my Apple Music Atmos songs play only
| as stereo using AirPlay. It's probably Apple's fault...but it
| reduced the value of my receiver for me. Buy a 7.1 channel
| setup and effectively listen to only 2 channels :/
| boulos wrote:
| Yeah, AirPlay is such a disappointment. I'm thinking about
| investing more heavily into Chromecast related things since
| they're more amenable to custom code. Unfortunately,
| there's no way I'll sign up for any Google-based music
| service (and I work for Alphabet!).
|
| Edit to add: Dolby <anything> is also a bit of a fiasco. LG
| TVs went through multiple firmware updates to attempt to
| correctly negotiate Dolby Vision. I appreciate that they
| want to push audio / video quality, but it seems weird that
| the industry testing process for integration is so poor.
| notatoad wrote:
| Spotify on Chromecast works great!
| seabrookmx wrote:
| Spotify works great with Chromecasts. I'm still really
| bummed they killed the Chromecast audio.. there's
| workarounds but it was the perfect device IMO.
|
| If you're a tinkerer there's also DIY solutions like
| running snapcast on a Pi.
| danachow wrote:
| It's entirely limitations of Apple Airplay that are known
| and not new. Whether it's Apples fault - I mean Airplay
| does what it says it does. Anybody that cares about would
| simply not use Airplay. If you want to use Apple Music then
| the best bet is an Apple TV which can stream it over HDMI
| to the receiver.
|
| But it's not like there aren't alternative music providers
| - Spotify, qobuz, tidal, your own pick your poison DLNA all
| +/- Roon.
|
| I'm not an Apple fanboi but having to purchase an Apple TV
| when it's pretty clear they're a lifestyle brand just
| doesn't make me feel too bad for anyone.
| garyfirestorm wrote:
| exactly! despite spending money on a receiver, TV (smart
| OLED), nVidia Shield and a bunch of speakers - i now have
| to buy yet another device (AppleTV) to be able to
| maximize my experience.
| ethbr0 wrote:
| > _Buy a 7.1 channel setup and effectively listen to only 2
| channels : /_
|
| Apple determined that multiple channels were confusing for
| customers. One should be enough. /mouse/s
| mpol wrote:
| That awkward middle also included the reputation that they
| would easily break down after a few years, which made many
| people choose for a different brand.
| doyouevensunbro wrote:
| Shame, middle was right where I liked to be audio equipment
| wise. Ive had my Onkyo receiver for a long time, guess when I
| do finally replace it I'll go high end.
| codefreeordie wrote:
| The middle of the market is actually all messy generally
| these days. The very high end wants systems that feel like
| current systems, but if you want something in the middle, you
| don't actually really want the awkwardness associated with
| having an audio system today.
|
| A system of passive speakers, an amplifier or two, and the
| complexities of the user interface (I can't hear the TV,
| which of these three remotes do I need to push the "source"
| button on?) isn't actually a good experience -- and in the
| middle of the market, there's no particular reason it needs
| to stay this way.
|
| At the highest end, people want analog sound processing. At
| the bottom end, we have cheap powered smart speakers using
| Bluetooth for connectivity. In the middle, we could easily
| have good quality powered speakers and some reasonable
| mixture of wireless and wired interconnect that didn't
| require all the legacy nonsense of a separate amplifier/audio
| receiver.
| pbronez wrote:
| There are products there... plenty of good powered monitors
| available. Some of them have integrated DAC with an
| optical, line and USB inputs. Those are pretty easy to
| connect to a TV or whatever.
|
| I'm actually hacking on a project to make it easier to sift
| through all this stuff. The work that Audio Science Review
| and a (very) few others are pumping out some great
| objective data on audio equipment performance. My goal is
| to pull that together in a data-first way that will allow
| for robust cost/quality/criteria queries.
| convolvatron wrote:
| yeah. i mean i understand the value of being able to
| replace components, but for the not-super-concerning the
| integrated amp silicon is just fine. digital in means a
| lot less opportunity for noise injection, and the
| manufacturer gets to tune it all as a unit.
|
| i got some prosumer roland monitors a few years ago and
| they've had excellent clarity, flat frequency response,
| plenty of power at 60w on each of the drivers.
|
| why aren't there more products here between the crappy
| little usb speakers and the $5k/channel real gear?
| [deleted]
| codefreeordie wrote:
| These do exist, but they're not really marketed to the
| mainstream home theater market.
| hakfoo wrote:
| I always felt like it was a battle for control of the user
| interface.
|
| When the system was audio-dominant, the receiver made sense
| to put in control. The TV audio was one source among many,
| and most of the functionality was in front-panel buttons.
|
| When it became video-centric instead, we started putting
| the TV in the centre of the experience-- plugging devices
| directly into it and using its menus to control switching.
| The problem there is that anything cool the AVR could do by
| being aware of different inputs is lost (I'm picturing per-
| input volume controls, for example). There's not really a
| great way to get them to communicate-- CEC is limited, I've
| seen AVRs that do on-screen display and wish I hadn't seen
| it, and the only way I can imagine it working would be a
| single brand-based propriatery interface where all the
| parts could cooperate.
|
| The one I find weird is the soundbar angle. It's not going
| to be anywhere near as good as all but the worst free-
| standing speakers, due to size and positioning limits, but
| it's still introducing cost and complexity. Bluetooth
| speakers, at least you could put them in a good place for
| the room. I assume they trade mostly on what they used to
| call "Wife Acceptance Factor"
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| > I can't hear the TV, which of these three remotes do I
| need to push the "source" button on?
|
| I have a fairly dumb amplifier (it does BT, and the DAC can
| be fed through optical and coax, too). It can also be
| controlled over RS-232 and Ethernet. It doesn't have any
| kind of HDMI or other "home theater" related functions.
|
| But the remote of my Fire TV can be configured to control
| the input and the volume of this amp. So if all I want is
| to watch a movie or something, I only need to reach for the
| amp's remote to turn it off when I'm done. If I'm too lazy,
| it can go to standby on its own if it doesn't get any input
| for a while.
|
| I do agree, though, that a "normal person" would probably
| not want it. It's quite big and not particularly pretty.
| Plus it's useless on its own, you need some kind of source
| to feed it. A soundbar or some active speakers would be
| best for them, and it's what they usually choose.
| wallacoloo wrote:
| modern day i expect to not have to turn off/on my
| receiver: it should wake on input and go into a standby
| state after so much inactivity.
|
| hence my problem: i've got the Technics receiver + stereo
| speakers i inherited, but if you leave the receiver on
| for more than a couple days without explicitly venting
| it'll cut out (even if it's inactive: its idle power draw
| is incredible). that's fine for me, but if i'm the only
| one who cares about audio, it's a hassle for everyone
| else in the house to manually flip the rocker switch on
| as they use the tv and off when they're done.
|
| now i think about it, there's probably some "smart
| outlet" i could get to make this transparent.
| Bud wrote:
| "Decent interface" is actually very, very hard. That's why a
| lot people are willing to pay $179 for Apple TV 4K.
| pcurve wrote:
| Most a/v units have long offered good connectivity and even
| mult-room setups using one. So, interoperability and
| connectivity are easy. Aside from reasons mentioned in the
| article, you now have 1-2 generations of people who grew up
| without having much exposure to a/v receivers and large speaker
| setups, whether at home or big box store electronic stores.
|
| Even the ones who have, the marginal benefit of having pricier
| and higher end units cannot detected easily.
|
| Market for receivers will always be around, but it is shrinking
| for sure.
| ghaff wrote:
| Detecting differences between decent gear blind has never
| been terribly relevant to the audiophile market :-)
|
| That aside though, a stereo setup is something that a lot of
| people just had. I have a decent one and it's wired to
| multiple rooms. If I were starting from scratch I almost
| certainly wouldn't do that today--to say nothing of all the
| components to play four or five different types of media.
| gunapologist99 wrote:
| Easy, with built-in Bluetooth. I run my phone with Spotify into
| my Costco-special Onkyo with Bluetooth. Works great, and I can
| even play audio with Bluetooth while viewing video through
| another HDMI port.
| layer8 wrote:
| One reason I stopped buying Onkyo AVRs is that they don't have a
| good room correction system like e.g. Audyssey or Dirac.
|
| Edit: Apparently Onkyo caught up at some point, but at the time I
| switched away from them they were lagging behind regarding room
| correction.
| CuriousSkeptic wrote:
| Onkyo has had Audyssey for quite som time and current models
| have Dirac.
| layer8 wrote:
| > current models have Dirac
|
| Ah, I missed that, haven't kept up to date in recent years.
| 7speter wrote:
| > ... Audyssey or Dirac
|
| Gotta remember these names for when I can afford a good audio
| system...
| layer8 wrote:
| There's also Trinnov, but it's outrageously expensive.
| otterley wrote:
| Oh wow! I had an Onkyo AVR that did have Audyssey (TX-SR508),
| but I guess they stopped putting it into later models awhile
| ago. They replaced it with something called AccuEQ which some
| reviewers say works just fine.
|
| I personally switched over to Denon AVRs when it became time to
| upgrade.
| layer8 wrote:
| I believe Onkyo never had Audyssey XT32 (which is the
| Audyssey version you really want), only an older Audyssey
| version (2Eq). Onky never even had MultiEq? (not sure)
| CuriousSkeptic wrote:
| TX-NR3009 have XT32, there should be older models as well
| layer8 wrote:
| I wonder what Kawai will do, they collaborated with Onkyo for the
| speaker/circuit tech on some of their keyboards and digital
| pianos.
| user_7832 wrote:
| I must say this is a rather sober ending to the week, and for the
| company. For a company that lived for over half a century - that
| is a lot of people who've lived their entire lives working at
| that place. Households that were purely supported because of
| people buying their audio gear.
|
| I'm not a fan of Onkyo specifically - having never used them, or
| even had the money to buy proper audiophile gear - but it is a
| bit sad to see once-great industries and companies slowly start
| fading and dying off, as gradually fewer and fewer people
| remember them.
| kringo wrote:
| What's astounding is, how they didn't adapt to new demands or
| pivot?
|
| Got comfortable or outdate?
| rbanffy wrote:
| Some markets simply disappear. Ice was once a subscription
| business, but refrigerators ended it.
|
| Average sound equipment is good enough for most people. I
| enjoyed the chest thumping that my parents high end setup could
| deliver, but not everyone wants that and even though I would
| like to have that kind of ability available, my priorities
| place it down the list for the foreseeable future.
| boulos wrote:
| It's too bad Denon (DENki ONkyo) didn't buy this Onkyo to make
| the merger complete :). I'm guessing it wasn't worth it to go
| downmarket via Onkyo, and it sounds like Onkyo had been
| accumulating debt for years.
| lynguist wrote:
| https://jisho.org/search/onkyo
|
| Onkyo means sound. Also: Often when there's To (actually To) in
| a company's name, it refers to Tokyo's To such as in Toshiba.
| Hamuko wrote:
| > _it refers to Tokyo's To such as in Toshiba._
|
| You mean it refers to "east"?
| lynguist wrote:
| No, it's an abbreviation of Tokyo.
|
| Even if To means East - in a compound To often stands for
| Tokyo.
|
| Same concept in these words:
|
| Lai Ri - Nichi means day, here it stands for Japan.
|
| Here's an article about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J
| apanese_abbreviated_and_contr...
|
| More examples: Todai (To for Tokyo), Nissan (Ni for Nippon)
| gkanai wrote:
| Ri Ben = Japan
| 4ggr0 wrote:
| Does this apply to Toyota as well?
| selectodude wrote:
| Nah, that's named after a guy called Toyoda.
| agumonkey wrote:
| I had no idea Denon was related to Onkyo :)
| chrischen wrote:
| Not related. Just two companies with similar names. Denon was
| from Tokyo and Onkyo was from Osaka.
|
| I was however surprised to learn that Denon was actually
| founded by an American in Japan in 1910.
| [deleted]
| danachow wrote:
| They aren't - denon and marantz merged. Poster was just
| suggesting D&M could have acquired them. But given the
| overall stagnation in the receiver market I agree it think
| wouldn't have benefited anyone.
|
| The market segment for Onkyo just doesn't exist anymore -
| those that want receivers and a HiFi/HT setup are already
| well served Denon/Marantz and Yamaha (and the "audiophile"
| world beyond that is a pretty well saturated market). Sony is
| still around but that's clearly not their core business.
|
| But the former Onkyo base has been eroded by soundbars and
| wireless multi speaker setups.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| Denki Onkyo and Onkyo were two different companies. "On" is
| an obsolete / traditional pronunciation of "sound" so it's
| not surprising to find it in many audio company names.
| indigodaddy wrote:
| Wikipedia states the companies are not related (even though
| Onkyo is in both names).
| agumonkey wrote:
| ahh, fun fail
| starky wrote:
| Denon is already the downmarket brand for D&M though (Marantz
| being the high end), there wasn't much difference in cost
| between Denon and Onkyo.
| lowbloodsugar wrote:
| Both are downmarket now. They are shells of their former
| selves.
| Cerium wrote:
| Sad to hear. Growing up I had an Onkyo amplifier that I liked a
| lot. I picked it up at a garage sale for a few dollars and used
| it through my teenage years.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| I still have an Onkyo ... Mini-Disc system from Japan.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| It is sad. Many classic brands have gone by the wayside. Not
| all have been satisfactorily replaced.
|
| Onkyo had some very good quality, for a fairly reasonable
| price.
| codefreeordie wrote:
| Very true -- though the expectations we have for audio
| equipment has changed in ways that make what Onkyo was really
| good at less important.
| dylan604 wrote:
| The switch to little bitty teeny tiny speakers just makes
| me sad. I miss my towers with multiple drivers and
| crossovers accordingly.
| retcon wrote:
| [Edit] (large format) ,[/] Surround American made
| monitors designed by the Pet Sounds engineer Alan Sides.
|
| https://oceanwayaudio.com/as-the-sea-level-rises-for-
| immersi...
|
| British (also available in consumer version and pretty
| finishing): ATC SCM150
|
| https://atc.audio/hi-fi/loudspeakers/classic-
| series/scm150/
|
| American: JBL M2 https://jblpro.com/products/m2
|
| (Or just buy JBL commercial theater smaller models like
| many installers do)
|
| German: Neumann KH420 https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-420
|
| Yamaha NS-5000 https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/audi
| o_visual/speaker_s...
|
| All these cost about thirty thousand dollars including
| appropriate amplification and tax before installation. I
| make this a loss leader run by all the industry for labor
| and materials only. Every one is a halo product and
| worthy of that description.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| When I discovered full-range I disavowed multiple
| drivers, crossovers.
|
| Try it sometime. It's like headphones without the
| headphones. Crossovers + multiple drivers kill phase
| information and you throw the "sound stage" out the
| window.
| MrBuddyCasino wrote:
| You can have 2-way coaxes. I do like the sound, but they
| tend to bundle so the sweet spot is small.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| I understand the cross-over also destroys phase -- so I
| think you're still losing the headphone-like quality that
| full range give you.
| dylan604 wrote:
| You keep stating this phase destruction like it is
| gospel. However, if a crossover is negatively affecting
| the phasing, something is wrong. Maybe it's a cheap
| design on a cheap product, or a poorly made something
| with a good design, but if you have a crossover doing
| this, then replace the crossover.
|
| Many many sound systems do not have this issue that you
| seem to be convinced is normal operation of a crossover.
| If this was a normal thing and accepted by everyone
| everywhere, then loud music would never sound right. I'd
| suggest stop buying equipment from Radio Shack ;-)
| guardiangod wrote:
| They screwed up their receivers circuit board from 2009 to 2015
| ish. All their receivers would fail after 5 years and Onkyo did a
| massive recall campaign to replace the main circuit board (with
| all the amps attached.) That must have costed them.
| Hamuko wrote:
| I have one of those receivers, but unfortunately it failed
| after the recall period ended.
| erichocean wrote:
| Same. Bought a Pioneer Elite to replace it.
| iforgotpassword wrote:
| Uh, I have a TX-8020 from around that time. Nothing fancy, and
| I don't use it too much as it's not in my main setup. So far it
| has developed only one quirk: the power button doesn't work
| properly, you have to press it several times or in a certain
| spot for it to react, and sometimes, when you want to turn it
| off it instead says "tone mode: direct" in the display, as if I
| had pressed another button. Still not sure if this is a
| mechanical or circuit board problem.
| ryandrake wrote:
| A pretty common failure was the capacitors on their HDMI
| boards, which is a pretty easy DIY fix if you have some
| soldering skills.
| MushyRoom wrote:
| Yes! TX-NR609 (11yrs old) here. Send in for repair (recall -
| free out of warranty) and no problems ever since.
| rrdharan wrote:
| I always thought that was part of the capacitor plague but I
| guess not since the timing doesn't quite line up with what
| you're saying:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague
|
| I had an Onkyo from the bad cap era that blew its capacitors,
| it was maybe 15 years old when it died, FWIW..
| formerly_proven wrote:
| The Wikipedia article is wrong - it only talks about "the
| capacitor plague" of water-based elcos from 1999 onwards.
|
| There have been _multiple_ capacitor plagues. E.g. in the
| late 80s /early 90s SMD electrolytics entered the market and
| these had absolutely atrocious reliability because their lead
| seals kept failing, so they'd empty their electrolyte into
| the PCB. Before that the Japanese brands had a plague.
| Philips "blue axials" had a plague in the 70s/80s. I don't
| remember the brand right now (small, red-cased caps), which
| also had a plague in the 80s. Rifa MP _safety caps_ have had
| moisture ingress issues and associated explosion and fire
| issues since forever.
| tobyhinloopen wrote:
| Mine failed too I wouldn't buy one again. But apparently I
| won't be able to anyway.
| Linda703 wrote:
| supernovae wrote:
| I switched to sonos and never looked back. I had a lot of Onkyo
| over the years and it always felt like they should have gone the
| software route much sooner.
|
| ultimately i think smart tvs and roku were a bigger part of the
| receiver demise - it just didn't fit the receiver mindset and the
| experience sucked
|
| sonos wasn't cheap but i'm on year 7 and it still works and i
| only saw one product refresh on soundbar but my old one still
| works - just sticking to spdiff. with 7 years of onkyo i would
| have been on 2nd or 3rd receiver just trying to stay ahead of dvd
| to bd and hdmi 1.x to 2.x and evrything between.
| akmarinov wrote:
| This isn't big news, the actual "Onkyo" that consumers know will
| carry on, the Bankruptcy is the remains of the company that had
| already sold off the hardware divisions.
|
| "The company sold its core home audiovisual business to Sharp and
| U.S.-based Voxx International and its earphones and headphones
| business to an investment fund, both in September. A joint
| venture between Sharp and Voxx is expected to continue using the
| Onkyo brand"
| boulos wrote:
| Right, the big news was that it was already sold off months
| ago. But just because Sharp / Voxx is going to reuse the brand
| name (and likely some base IP) that doesn't mean people won't
| notice. (It's not likely anyone has noticed yet, since it takes
| until the next production or two to actually make cost / design
| changes).
| spookthesunset wrote:
| I was window shopping for an atmos receiver and noticed the
| manuals and even product design between a certain Onkyo and
| Pioneer receiver were basically identical.
|
| The design of the manuals, including the fonts and screenshots
| were almost identical. The back and front of the units were
| almost identical. I bet even the guts were identical!
|
| Here is the pioneer unit: https://intl.pioneer-
| audiovisual.com/manuals/docs/SN29403616...
|
| Here is the Onkyo unit: https://www.onkyousa.com/wp-
| content/uploads/2019/08/TX-SR494...
| tzs wrote:
| Pioneer sold their home A/V business to Onkyo in 2015.
| spookthesunset wrote:
| That would explain it!
| codefreeordie wrote:
| The brand may live on as a mark, but the brand is already
| gone as a product.
|
| But actually I think that had already happened, and that we
| are just observing now the formal recognition of that fact.
| layer8 wrote:
| > the actual "Onkyo" that consumers know will carry on
|
| I'm not so sure. The mainstream market (by that I mean
| excluding expensive "high-end" brands like NAD) can't support a
| lot of independently designed products. In the AVR mainstream
| market there's currently Denon/Marantz, Onkyo/Pioneer, Sony,
| and Yamaha (did I miss any?). There's bound to occur more
| consolidation if the market keeps shrinking. The brands may
| continue to exist, but sharing the internals with other brands.
| rodgerd wrote:
| Depends what you consider mainstream - the licensing gouged
| for everything from HDMI to Atmos, DTS:X, and so on means
| that there aren't as many price differences as there used to
| be, so anything above (e.g.) bare-bones Denon will be in the
| same price bracket as NAD and Anthem (for example).
|
| Then you get into the exotica such as Trinnov, Storm, etc.
| m463 wrote:
| I like schiit, but they brought my attention to an
| interesting problem: the RCA plug is a really open standard
| with a low barrier to entry.
|
| But multi-channel sound is sewn up - to enter that market you
| have to ask permission from companies like dolby. Same with
| video.
| [deleted]
| FunnyBadger wrote:
| Bankruptcy in Japan doesn't work the way it does in the West -
| it's pretty much a death sentence commercially in Japan. The
| brand will never be used again and the assets will be
| liquidated. The loss of face and reputation makes it very
| different.
| hakre wrote:
| > Bankruptcy in Japan doesn't work the way it does in the
| West
|
| Doesn't work in which part of the way it does work in the
| West?
|
| Is the brand part of the assets and impossible to be sold -
| as a brand - locally or globally as part of the liquidation
| with this Onkyo bankruptcy in Japan?
| wyldfire wrote:
| But doesn't the brand itself have value outside of Japan?
| When liquidating the company, why not license it to another
| manufacturer?
| 7speter wrote:
| Whats the good of licensing a brand if the company was
| known for high quality products? Its kind of like how
| toshiba made laptops 25 years ago that still work today but
| now they just license their name out to be stamped on cheap
| crappy laptops that barely make it through their warranty
| period.
| elzbardico wrote:
| This worked for years for whatever entities bought the
| brand Samsui, same for modern-day Marantz brand.
| wyldfire wrote:
| Did you just answer your own question? It is precisely
| for that purpose - to give the impression that this
| lesser-known manufacturer produces goods with the
| original quality level of the licensed brand.
|
| Eventually, consumers catch on:
|
| > but now they just license their name out to be stamped
| on cheap crappy laptops
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