[HN Gopher] The overengineered solution to my pigeon problem
___________________________________________________________________
The overengineered solution to my pigeon problem
Author : maxmunzel
Score : 208 points
Date : 2022-05-14 14:00 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (maxnagy.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (maxnagy.com)
| aenis wrote:
| Did something similar. My wife was upset about the flying rats
| defecating on her flower pots on the terrace. Those birds are
| stationary (generally) and slow so I managed to iterate a
| solution that (a) used a 3w green laser mounted on a webcam with
| servos and (b) later used a static laser with a mirror that was
| mounted on a set of servos. I used a stationary 4k webcam. I
| mapped the whole terrace so I didn't need to use stereoscopic
| vision. When a bird was detected (i sampled images at 1fps and
| built a custom model for pigeons, it was generally ok at avoiding
| other birds, but not perfect), i'd triagulate its position and
| light it up for 100ms. I used a similar contraption as the OP to
| cut the power. The pigeons would react by flying away, even when
| hit from behind or underneath. I used a series of experiments
| before settling on 3w. 1w was not enough.
|
| It solved the problem for good. Its not a perfect solution,
| obviously: i had to implement a master override which stopped it
| when terrace doors were open, also it only fired at horizon or
| below since I didnt want to accidentally light up a plane (there
| is an airport 5km from where I live). We dont have kids, and
| rarelh entertain guests, so I didnt need to implement additional
| safety Measures. Lastly, it was running on a pretty beefy pc and
| was consuming around 60w constantly.
|
| We fixed the problem for good by moving out. If i had to do it
| again, I'd try with water pistols, way safer than laser.
| ww520 wrote:
| That's an awesome setup. Curious how do you triangulate using
| the video from a camera.
| aenis wrote:
| That was done on the cheap; there is a finite number of spots
| the pidgeons used to occupy. Pigeons also have a relatively
| fixed height when stationary. The camera was in a fixed
| position. I mapped the area the camera was observing
| manually: railing, base of the terrace, etc. I was
| contemplating using two cameras but the cheap setup worked
| nearly flawlessly when it comes to triangulation.
| dsr_ wrote:
| If you aren't moving your position and you have a topographic
| map of your territory, and you have a line-of-sight weapon
| that doesn't need wind or range adjustments... then you don't
| really need to know where your target is in 3 coordinates,
| you only need 2.
|
| I would expect that ambient lighting changes are harder to
| compensate for when selecting targets.
|
| It is, however, terribly irresponsible to do this, since
| temporary reflectors like water puddles or a misplaced water
| glass can be inadvertently weaponized.
|
| For small areas, an overhead water sprinkler would be much,
| much safer and not need aiming at all.
| yeldarb wrote:
| Any interest in over engineering it a bit more? We did something
| similar to spook rabbits[1] in a garden using a computer vision
| model to detect them (vs your masked motion sensor). Looks like
| lots of users have shared pigeon detection datasets[2] that could
| make a good starting point.
|
| [1] https://blog.roboflow.com/rabbit-deterrence-system/
|
| [2] https://universe.roboflow.com/search?q=Pigeon&t=subject
| maxmunzel wrote:
| Cool project!
| 93po wrote:
| I built something similar using the same internals of a battery
| operated water gun. I 3d printed a 360 turret enclosure, stuck it
| on a stepper motor. However mine was manually controlled via my
| phone. I used it to break up cat fights in the middle of the
| night
| ramraj07 wrote:
| rglullis wrote:
| If you want the low-tech solution, here is a recipe that
| definitely resolved it for me:
|
| - One big spoon of cinnamon
|
| - One big spoon of chilli peppers
|
| - Half a bottle of cheap, cleaning vinegar
|
| Spray it in all the places that the pigeons want to land. I am
| doing that once a week and it is enough to keep them away. If you
| clean your whole balcony with it, you might be able to go through
| most of the spring - when I think they really get annoying
| because they are looking for a place to make a nest.
| geoduck14 wrote:
| This is cool alright, but can I program a Rasberry Pi to spray
| it?
| andai wrote:
| This is interesting, I was under the impression that chili
| peppers specifically evolved (spiciness) to be edible by birds
| but not mammals. Maybe that's an adaptation specific to
| tropical birds?
| Conlectus wrote:
| Adding on: Though there is no consensus, I believe that is
| now the less-popular theory for the origin of spiciness. It
| seems instead to be a form of pesticide and fungicide.
|
| Evidence for this is that pepper varieties tend to be spicier
| in wetter environments, where the biological resources spent
| on producing capsaicin to fight fungus are more valuable than
| preserving them in case of drought.
|
| Source: https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2012/issue131b/
| MontyCarloHall wrote:
| You are correct; birds are not sensitive to capsaicin [0].
| Seems this is specifically confirmed for pigeons [1].
|
| Perhaps the cinnamon or vinegar are the true repellents?
|
| [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11853675/
|
| [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3797018/
| realo wrote:
| Another low tech solution:
|
| feed them occasionally on your balcony... birds are smart and
| they will not poo in their food plate.
|
| Cooked pasta works well, nothing will be left when they leave.
| michaelcampbell wrote:
| Hard disagree, or our pigeons are especially daft. (To be
| fair, ours are wild Mourning Doves), but they crap all over
| the food and water receptacles we have out for a variety of
| birds.
| imperistan wrote:
| I was under the impression that birds have no sphincter so
| they can't control when they poop. Is this not true?
| geoduck14 wrote:
| Some birds do, some don't.
|
| Source: my pet duck didn't have a sphincter.
|
| Pro tip: don't get a pet duck
| MerelyMortal wrote:
| Wouldn't it then always slowly leak out rather than become
| one big glop?
| [deleted]
| logophobia wrote:
| Consider using background subtraction for this:
| https://docs.opencv.org/4.x/d1/dc5/tutorial_background_subtr...
|
| Will make things a little more robust (and overengineered!).
| maxmunzel wrote:
| Thanks for the hint!
| catlifeonmars wrote:
| I'm curious, could you somehow make the background model
| adaptive by averaging a rolling window of camera frames to use
| as the background model in this?
| maxmunzel wrote:
| This is pretty much what I'm doing. Except that I'm using an
| exponential moving average so I don't have to mess with
| windowing.
| catlifeonmars wrote:
| Oh nice, I hadn't thought of that.
| Terry_Roll wrote:
| When do you get a house with a garden and mount this on a radio
| controlled car chasing cats, asking for a friend?
| swayvil wrote:
| Deer devouring flowers. Off the shelf solution. Motion activated
| sprayers attached to hose. Worked great, but.
|
| 1. Looked like crap. Scifi minitowers in my yard. Hoses stretched
| here and there. 2. Randomly activating at night. Not loud but
| quite audible, and disturbing. 3. Occasionally zapped people,
| skunks, cats.
|
| So I sold them to a friend (they aren't cheap)
| gbolcer wrote:
| I've been looking at some automated way to scare coyotes out of
| my yard almost every night at 3am. It drives the dog nuts.
| finnh wrote:
| Ouch! I hope they aren't howling too. Coyotes howling is one of
| nature's crazier sounds. The first time I heard it, from a
| distance, I was all kinds of confused. "Is there a mad hobos-
| on-meth tea party going on over the next hill? Are they coming
| for me? Will it be fun?"
| maxmunzel wrote:
| Hi HN! I commented about this project of mine a month ago [0] and
| decided to write a more in depth blog post about it.
|
| Feel free to ask any questions :)
|
| [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31024099
| neopallium wrote:
| A motion activated sprinkler could work too. Or buy a motion
| detector and have it activate plant water sprayers (the kind
| used for automatic watering of potted plants).
| lostlogin wrote:
| A cheap solenoid will work with garden watering systems and
| connections. I made an irrigation system that I added to Home
| Assistant and it's great.
|
| https://www.bunnings.co.nz/pope-25mm-solenoid-valve-with-
| flo...
|
| You can get attachments that allow all sorts of jets, drips
| and spray patterns.
|
| It would probably plug in nicely in place of the water gun.
| However drilling through the wall and messing with the
| plumbing isn't for everyone.
| darkerside wrote:
| Also works great for keeping kids off your lawn
| amelius wrote:
| Did you see:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIbkLjjlMV8
| maxmunzel wrote:
| Actually not, but it looks similar (minus the network
| insanity)
| maccard wrote:
| What happens when you sit on the balcony?
| gus_massa wrote:
| Are you going to add a second camera?
| maxmunzel wrote:
| Interesting question! The geometry of my balcony kind of
| restricts the number of places that observe the pigeons
| without spying on my neighbors. Therefore I'm not sure where
| else I could put another camera.
|
| I'm thinking about a auto-aiming gun for the next iteration,
| though.
| gus_massa wrote:
| One in each corner of the window of the balcony?
|
| Just add two microphones and try to integrate the sound and
| video for extra style points?
| maxmunzel wrote:
| I wanted to add video recording in the future to gain
| some lol-points. But to be honest, the still images of
| the pigeons + my imagination had me jumping like a child
| in excitement already ;)
| jandeboevrie wrote:
| So how do you aim the water gun? I see no servo motors? Or is
| it more like a wide spray nozzle?
| maxmunzel wrote:
| I don't aim it at all at the moment. The pigeons mostly land
| directly behind the railings, as documented by their...
| presents ;)
| oneeyedpigeon wrote:
| > [Spikes] work IFF you buy the right ones AND put them
| absolutely everywhere AND are careful to actually mount them
| correctly AND you don't plan to use the area covered yourself at
| all AND you don't even want to look at its disgraced looks. So it
| is completely pointless for a balcony.
|
| They can also be horrifically cruel. I've seen a pigeon die after
| getting impaled on those kinds of spikes and it was a traumatic
| experience for me, let alone the poor bird. I really appreciate
| your attempts to solve this problem without resorting to
| inflicting pain, or worse.
| goldenkey wrote:
| I use these plastic spikes. [1] Not even sure if you can call
| them spikes, moreso just protrusions. They aren't sharp at all
| so they don't impale the pigeon, only stop it from roosting.
| They work really well because the pigeons just aren't
| comfortable sitting on them.
|
| I agree with you about sharp metal spikes. Those are really
| terrible and I feel bad for any bird that gets injured by
| those.
|
| [1] https://www.amazon.com/Bird-X-Plastic-Polycarbonate-
| Spikes-A...
| honopu wrote:
| These spikes are in a nook above the office at work. They
| help hold the bird nest there perfectly, and actually seem to
| make nesting easier. I could see them keeping away large
| birds, but for their intended use case, they just made it
| easier for nests to be put where they otherwise might not
| stay.
|
| That said, I don't mind it, watching the birds is fun.
| goldenkey wrote:
| That's pretty funny. For me, they work pretty good against
| the pigeons. Honestly, if it were sparrows or some other
| type of bird making a nest in them, I don't know if I would
| care too much. Pigeons are pretty large and make big poops.
| maccard wrote:
| I don't often comment on usernames but I feel like you're just
| trying to make sure you don't lose your other eye.
| oneeyedpigeon wrote:
| Would you believe, I actually forgot my username while making
| that comment?!
| nickkell wrote:
| Sounds like you're still working through the trauma
| unconsciously.
| [deleted]
| mnem wrote:
| The most effective solution I found for pigeons (although I
| haven't built this so can't compare...) is feeding them at
| regular times. It doesn't even have to be a lot. They're smart
| enough to know I come out around 0830 to give them some seed, and
| then they fly away for the rest of the day because no more food
| is coming. Sometimes when new babies appear, it takes a couple of
| weeks for them to copy the pattern though.
| rglullis wrote:
| If you live in an urban area, please don't do this. Pigeons are
| pests. They carry diseases. Their shit is toxic and can cause
| serious respiratory issues.
| RobertRoberts wrote:
| At a very high end hotel with a very large veranda, they ran what
| looked like clear fishing line horizontally.
| widea wrote:
| I use tie wraps spaced about 10-15 cm apart. Works 100%.
| haraball wrote:
| Cool project! A simple solution that worked for my balcony and
| window sills was to leave a few cm of reflective tape [1] in some
| strategic places.
|
| [1]: https://www.amazon.de/-/en/gp/product/B073W7VR6L/
| magnusss wrote:
| Not as much fun to build and deploy, but equally effective is
| pigeon-repellent adhesive. It prevents the birds from landing on
| treated surfaces and is not too unsightly.
|
| https://www.nixalite.com/product/4-the-birds-gel-repellent
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| I hope that at least one person pauses to consider the pigeons'
| close relation to us on the family tree of life, the fact that
| they have feelings and personalities and can experience joy and
| pain.
| picture wrote:
| That doesn't mean humans can't hate them for shitting
| everywhere, however. These solutions discussed here aren't
| fatal or invasive. The birds don't die and they're free to
| leave.
| robofanatic wrote:
| Would love to see the demo
| hahajk wrote:
| "After a quick burst of manic energy during exam phase..."
|
| It's amazing what humans are capable of achieving while avoiding
| doing something else.
| montenegrohugo wrote:
| I call it productive procrastination
|
| Amazing phenomenon.
| [deleted]
| supertofu wrote:
| This phenomenon is the only reason my house is clean.
| ihaveajob wrote:
| I've been daydreaming about something like this for my squirrel
| problem. The damn things nearly leave me without nectarines
| unless I install a cumbersome, unsightly net over the tree.
| michaelcampbell wrote:
| Not sure this will work but for our birdseed we've had good
| luck with that super hot pepper oil. Less than a teaspoon of it
| in a (1/2 gallon?) sized container of birdseed, shaken for
| 30s-1m to get it distributed has kept the squirrels and
| raccoons off of it. Couple times and they don't even bother.
|
| Doesn't bother the birds, but mammal tongues light right up.
| oblak wrote:
| Squirrels eat nectarines/peaches? Maybe I should hit wikipedia
| more often and check out things that "everyone knows"
| t-3 wrote:
| Squirrels are just tree rats. They'll eat _anything_. I 'm
| more sueprised that nets are effective than their choice of
| food.
| swayvil wrote:
| Could one invest in hawks, owls or snakes?
| meristem wrote:
| Hawks and owls require multi-year effort in Falconry
| licensing (at least in the US).
|
| First 2 years under a sponsor--you can get a very specific
| hawk or falcon (which hawk or falcon is geographically
| dependent) After 2 years & sponsor approving it-- you are now
| a general falconer. Have fun with other raptors, including
| owls. OTOH.... Wild Owls: excellent pest control.
| kordlessagain wrote:
| You might like this:
| https://docs.vizycam.com/doku.php?id=wiki:birdfeeder_app
| kretaceous wrote:
| I can't currently link to it but this reminded me of that Mark
| Rober series of videos about squirrels.
| klausjensen wrote:
| That is absolutely ridiculous. I love it.
| chrissnell wrote:
| Tom Lehrer solved this one years ago:
|
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yhuMLpdnOjY
| severino wrote:
| This is funny. I've tried to make pigeons come into my terrace to
| feed them and allow them to nest with no success at all. Yet
| other people struggle to keep them out of their balconies :D
| secondcoming wrote:
| Why would you want this? They'll crap everywhere. If you have
| neighbours they may not appreciate it either.
| severino wrote:
| I always felt curiosity about pigeons, specially homing
| pigeons and pigeon racing. Where I live, there is not much
| interest in pigeon racing, but there are quite a few pigeons
| and doves. Considering I have no neighbours nearby and there
| is plenty of space here in the outside, I tried to attract
| them but I failed so far.
| oblak wrote:
| Have you tried providing food? All you need is raw seeds, no
| salt!
|
| There are all kinds of small and big birds that visit our
| balcony, especially in what passes for winter these days.
| severino wrote:
| Yes, I left seeds, bread and other stuff pigeons and other
| small birds may eat, and also provided some kind of shelter,
| but the only visits we have here -no matter if I provide food
| or not- are seagulls, which I'm not interested in.
| alexander-litty wrote:
| If you're not already, try using nutritious food formulated
| specifically for pigeons or doves.
|
| Seed-heavy diets, even if formulated for pigeons, are very
| fatty and may not make them feel great after eating. And
| bread is basically junk food for birds! So if you try a
| more nutritious blend of food made for them specifically,
| they may really enjoy it and come back for more.
|
| Plus I imagine gulls won't bother with their tiny food.
| oblak wrote:
| Maybe seagulls drive everything else away. Can't think of
| anything else, provided there are trees and bushes around.
| rglullis wrote:
| Do you do the same with city rats? Both are carriers of a huge
| amount of diseases.
| rkuska wrote:
| I once found pigeon nest behind my window with 3 eggs in it. I
| didn't have the heart to destroy the nest. Little did I know
| about what filth I will have to clean up once they take off.
| Also, they left behind some very tiny beetles that I battled
| with for few weeks to come. They were so tiny they managed to
| squeeze in through the window's sealing.
|
| This year I found an egg again. I threw it away.
| usrusr wrote:
| Surprisingly little excrement before hatching, compared to
| what comes after. And even that is less ugly than what
| happens when the magpie gets the chick before it gets too
| big. My current approach is allowing them to breed but
| sterilizing the eggs with a quick round of cooking. I feel
| sorry for them when they are close to giving up (how much
| conflict between hope and growing doubt fits into a pigeon
| head?), but just removing the eggs will lead to a another
| attempt and sometimes I'm away for long enough to allow them
| to get from zero to hatching
|
| (that's how I learned about the magpie situation, was away
| long enough to have an entire laying-hatching sequence after
| leaving when freshly sterilized, I suspect they gave up
| early, magpie discovered and took the abandoned eggs,
| remembered the spot and came back to the chicks after the
| next breeding attempt - pure speculation but the schedule
| would just fit my absence)
| Maursault wrote:
| Anyone notice how few birds there are nowadays? Used to see them
| all the time. I live in a bird sanctuary. I see the same 25 birds
| every day. Used to be thousands. Maybe insects have collapsed.
| Maybe it's just us. I wish we could stop killing things.
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| We have a very large yard and lots of trees so I started
| putting up bird feeders.
|
| Now we have more birds than I've ever seen.
|
| They're still out there.
| Markoff wrote:
| nope, I see mostly magpies around my house all the time here in
| Prague literally any time (they must like my neighborhood,
| seems they took over all other birds), often also pigeons,
| rarely other birds, can't say I don't like being in company of
| one of the smartest animals on this planet, shame dunno how to
| make friends with them
|
| but yeah it's extremely rare for me to see sparrows unlike my
| childhood in small hometown 25-30 years ago, might be because
| of size of town
| amitport wrote:
| Hmm... This is actually not a bad idea. Like seriously, some
| people will pay for it IMO. It might actually be a viable
| product.
| nullc wrote:
| You can just buy off the shelf a ordinary lawn sprinkler
| controlled by a motion sensor. Though maybe the total amount of
| water might be undesirable on a balcony.
|
| I found them quite effective at supplementing a fence to keep
| deer out of areas they shouldn't be in.
| everybodyknows wrote:
| Any particular motion sensor? Low voltage?
| nullc wrote:
| The ones I use and have seen use PIR, and are battery
| powered. The batteries last a long time esp. if it isn't
| triggered often.
|
| The biggest limitation I've found is that it takes a bit of
| soldering iron adventure if you want to have a remote disable
| switch. :)
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2022-05-15 23:00 UTC)