[HN Gopher] Finding Van Tran, who brought female representation ...
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Finding Van Tran, who brought female representation to games
Author : bpierre
Score : 62 points
Date : 2022-05-13 15:31 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (gamehistory.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (gamehistory.org)
| numpad0 wrote:
| I don't quite understand the push for pronounced minority
| caricatuarization as a display of nobility, nor the dominance of
| bald macho man covered in blood as a protagonist in some
| subgenres of games.
|
| A lot of anime, JRPGs and mobile gacha games are built around the
| concept of a fictional, prominent group of teenagers of
| audiences' sexual orientation saving the world, and that passes
| Bechdel tests, and seems to almost perfectly fit into "the"
| criteria. Teenage girl quantum physicist scantily clothed talking
| democracy and sacrificing their life, for a reason miles away
| from a dick but for a true greater good? I think those are just
| clicks away if that is what you want or what you need more to
| correct the world we are in.
|
| But it's not what everyone wants, if not a polar opposite, so I
| don't understand why it's talked this often.
| dybber wrote:
| More stories about early female game developers:
| http://www.atariwomen.org/stories/
| smegsicle wrote:
| so if the 'gender barrier' of female representation in games was
| broken forty years ago, what is the goal of those who imply that
| it's some sort of systemic issue? are they that ignorant, or do
| they benefit by the discord somehow?
| joemi wrote:
| Female representation in video games sure feels to me like an
| ongoing problem. Is it better now than it used to be? Yes. Is
| it no longer an issue? No.
|
| I don't think anyone's arguing that there's zero female
| representation. The argument is that there isn't enough and/or
| what representation there is is poor representation.
| AussieWog93 wrote:
| Is "problem" the right word there?
|
| Is it really a bad thing for society that women don't have as
| many gamedev jobs as they otherwise could?
| jrajav wrote:
| You misunderstood the statement. Female representation in
| video games means female characters _in_ the games.
| Independent, impactful, and nuanced characters like the
| protagonist or antagonist.
|
| Whether you think representation in video games is
| important or not tends to be a function of whether your
| personal identity is already well represented. If you don't
| think it's important, I'd encourage you to seek the
| perspectives of someone who is not well represented,
| ideally just a real-life friend. You might learn things you
| hadn't simply hadn't thought to consider, through no fault
| of your own.
|
| As for game dev jobs, more women in them would probably
| mean more female representation in games too, simply
| because there would be more perspectives at key decision
| points. And it's hard to argue that there isn't negative
| pressure against women entering and thriving in the
| industry, when one of the biggest game developers on the
| planet is recovering from a deeply embedded epidemic of
| misogynism.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| > If you don't think it's important, I'd encourage you to
| seek the perspectives of someone who is not well
| represented, ideally just a real-life friend. You might
| learn things you hadn't simply hadn't thought to
| consider, through no fault of your own.
|
| Agreed. If you don't have experience with something, the
| obvious thing to do is to talk to someone who does.
|
| I've read so many stories from people whose fondest
| memory of games/TV/career/etc is finally seeing someone
| who looked like them, and how life-changing it was.
| dahart wrote:
| > Is it really a bad thing for society that women don't
| have as many gamedev jobs as they otherwise could?
|
| Yes, it is. Not because we need more game devs, but because
| there are women who actually want those jobs and are
| qualified and have a harder time getting them. And because
| when they do get them they deal with issues that the men in
| the same positions don't have to deal with. And because
| they get paid less for the same work on average. These
| things are indeed bad for society, they make our
| environment worse than it could be otherwise.
|
| We also don't have enough games that represent the growing
| category of female gamer, we have too many Call of Duty and
| Grand Theft Auto and Madden, and not enough games like, I
| dunno, Sayonara Wild Hearts or Celeste. We could generally
| speaking make more money by having more games that not just
| cater to female gamers but are made by women.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| > because there are women who actually want those jobs
| and are qualified and have a harder time getting them.
| And because when they do get them they deal with issues
| that the men in the same positions don't have to deal
| with. And because they get paid less for the same work on
| average. These things are indeed bad for society, they
| make our environment worse than it could be otherwise.
|
| Also, the economy is less efficient, with inferior talent
| making games, and the talented woman doing something else
| that they're not as well suited for.
| BlargMcLarg wrote:
| >We also don't have enough games that represent the
| growing category of female gamer, we have too many Call
| of Duty and Grand Theft Auto and Madden, and not enough
| games like, I dunno, Sayonara Wild Hearts or Celeste
|
| You're going to have to be _way_ more specific why there
| are too many of the former, too little of the latter, why
| the latter attracts women more, etc. You can name
| hundreds of games like the latter two depending on your
| selection criteria.
|
| >We could generally speaking make more money by having
| more games that not just cater to female gamers but are
| made by women.
|
| This too I would like to see more support for, unless
| your only criteria is "women will buy games made by
| women".
| sacrosancty wrote:
| Do women really have a harder time getting game dev jobs
| overall just because they're women? Is there actual
| evidence for that? How would the industry look if there
| was no such discrimination? How would we know that the
| problem was solved?
| numpad0 wrote:
| Having told that more than 50% of anime style
| illustrators(including hardcore porn) are in fact
| biological female, I doubt majority of these blanket
| statements can be substantiated.
|
| Perhaps it applies more to managerial roles in AAA game
| studios as that will be matters of corporate environment
| exploitation & survival than about pursuing life in
| creative content making, but that would be a wider issue
| than storylines included in products marketed to a target
| group, I think.
| dahart wrote:
| Yes, women really do have a harder time, at multiple
| levels. And there's literally mountains of actual
| evidence.
|
| One way to know when the problem is solved is when the
| rates of gender disparity, whatever they are, settle for
| a long time and are the same in all countries, and that
| women as a whole agree that things are fair. We're barely
| ~100 years (1 human lifespan) from women having the right
| to vote in the US. Before that extreme cultural bias was
| baked into law. In some countries it still is. We're
| maybe a bit over ~50 years from the start of computer
| science as a widespread field of academic study, the
| start of which involved very few women. The number of
| women in CS in the US went from zero to 37% in the 80s,
| and then went down (why?) and is now hovering around 20%.
| In Indian, the number of women in CS has in the recent
| past exceeded 50%. The fact that the numbers are changing
| rapidly, and that they're different in India vs the US is
| proof of cultural biases.
| joemi wrote:
| Note that, at least in the case of this article, the topic
| of "female representation in games" isn't just about women
| having jobs in the industry, but also about making games
| featuring women. Both of these aspects are what I'm
| referring to as well.
|
| I've been playing games for 30-something years, and I think
| women aren't portrayed as well as they should be. It's come
| a ways over the years, but I don't think it's fixed. I'd
| call it a problem. If you think it's perfect as-is, then I
| guess it's not a problem for you.
| smegsicle wrote:
| best i can gather, this seems to be a kind of strange
| wishful belief that some people have- for women to be
| exactly the same as men- and any counterexample is taken as
| a threat to their worldview somehow
| [deleted]
| dahart wrote:
| It's unfortunate but true that one person breaking stereotypes
| at one small company doesn't suddenly stop stereotypes from
| existing everywhere. But as an ex video game developer for a
| decade, long after Van made Wabbit, I'm sorry to say that
| female representation in games is low and barriers still exist
| to this day, even if things are improving. Assuming that one
| person's success implies that people shouldn't call attention
| to ongoing issues is the problem. It's neither a hidden goal
| nor people who are trying to sow discord, there are still real
| imbalances.
|
| Games these days are a bigger production effort than what it
| took to make Atari cartridges, and in big studios often require
| a CS degree. Women in CS went up for several decades until the
| mid 80s, and then started going down again. So gender
| imbalances in education play a large part in the state of
| things today.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_disparity_in_computing#...
| jdthedisciple wrote:
| Can someone explain to me why exactly female representation in
| gaming is important / the lack thereof is a problem? Is there any
| particular merit in being associated with and represented in the
| field of gaming? Would the world be a better place if males and
| females were both to be exactly equally well represented in the
| field of gaming, whatever that means?
| WalterGR wrote:
| Because of capitalism. Capitalism abhors a vacuum.
|
| Addressing under-served markets means more money.
| whatshisface wrote:
| Back in the late 2000s a lot of people were saying that casual
| gaming was, as an expansion outside of the male 20-something
| DOOM fan demographic, caused by women entering the game
| industry and working on things that male 20-something software
| engineers wouldn't think was enjoyable. There's a lot of gender
| essentialism in that way of telling the story, but there's also
| a lot of gender essentialism in the standard marketing playbook
| on target demographics more generally, and it seems to be
| making money for them.
|
| There is some argument to be made that it is good to have
| someone that is at least remotely contained within the target
| demographic involved when creative decisions are being made, at
| the very least to avoid having to send every little thing out
| to a focus group. That is for example why metal bands are
| usually made up of people who like metal, and why session
| musicians who are jobbing it don't end up doing a lot of
| songwriting.
| dybber wrote:
| The lack of representation might mean that fewer games are
| developed targeting women/girls, which means that there's
| potentialet a lot of unexplored territory.
| jrajav wrote:
| This article isn't even arguing anything about female
| representation, it's just a historical piece. The way you bring
| up it being a problem and questioning its merits seems vaguely
| incendiary in this context and makes me wonder if you're
| actually interested in the answer.
|
| I'm not gonna assume what your thoughts are on the matter, but
| I will suggest that if you're actually interested in an answer
| to your questions and not just starting a discussion that might
| or might not be fruitful for anyone, your answers will be best
| found doing earnest research and especially talking to real
| people who are affected by a lack of representation.
| axolotlgod wrote:
| There is a video [0] I love that explains an argument for this
| well. The more people you have participating and iterating in a
| field, and more generally in life, the better that field/life
| ultimately becomes. Allowing more women in the video game field
| will ultimately make more satisfying and novel games _for you_
| and for everyone else.
|
| Modern video games are interactive art. People have emotional
| experiences from finishing games with stories and performances
| that speak to them. Part of this emotion comes from a deep
| understanding of the "lived experience" of people. There are
| parts of the lived experience that drastically differ for women
| and men, on the whole. Does that mean that men couldn't write a
| story that women find powerful and challenging? Of course not.
| But men aren't going to fully grok the little details of how
| society treats women, which means a lot of relevant themes
| relevant go unexplored if there aren't women on creative teams.
|
| Diversity of experience translates into diversity of ideas.
| Hell, I always thought that was a strength for FOSS, after all.
|
| ---
|
| [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvskMHn0sqQ - Kurzgesagt
| jlg23 wrote:
| So that kids can grow up and find role models (or just heros to
| identify with) of any gender, skin color or body image. No more
| "oh, really?" when a woman is introduced as a scientist, fire
| fighter, pilot or as working in any other "male" domain.
| dahart wrote:
| Maybe ask yourself the same question using different categories
| and see if you can approach an answer from multiple angles.
|
| Why should males be represented in games? Do only men play
| games? Is there "merit" to male representation in games, and if
| so what is that exactly? The phrasing of your question is
| revealing some assumptions you're making, isn't it?
|
| Why is it important for women to have representation in
| business or education or politics? What things have happened
| over the years that have lead to changes in the amount of
| representation? Which direction has it been going?
|
| Why is it important that blind people are represented in city
| design, or in browser design? Why is accessibility important?
| Why is it important for black people to have representation in
| the US? Why is it important for people to vote in a Blue State
| or a Red State?
|
| Or maybe ask some women! See what your mom or sister says in
| response to that question. Ask some local teenagers why they
| play games and whether the girls all want to play only Call of
| Duty forever.
|
| > Would the world be a better place if males and females were
| both to be exactly equally well represented in the field of
| gaming, whatever that means?
|
| How about instead of emphasizing "exactly equally well
| represented" since that seems a bit loaded, we focus on simply
| being better represented? Whether we're talking about female
| story protagonists, or we're talking about female programmers,
| all categories appear to have visible discrepancies due to
| known cultural biases today. If we know that there are cultural
| barriers to women, is it reasonable to worry first about just
| making sure those go away, rather than get hung up on "exactly
| equally"?
|
| Did the world become a better place when women gained the right
| to vote, or to own land? Yes, it did. Will the world become a
| better place when women face less discrimination than they do
| now, even if it's a small amount? Yes, it will.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| > Or maybe ask some women! See what your mom or sister says
| in response to that question.
|
| Or your daughter.
| eappleby wrote:
| tangentially related:
| https://www.npr.org/2022/05/11/1098298392/a-12-year-old-girl...
|
| Planet Money (Podcast): A 12-year-old girl takes on the video
| game industry
| dijit wrote:
| The most notable thing to me here is that nobody tried to stop
| it, they do not talk about barriers, only a vague mention that
| she might not have been nerdy enough but that notion was removed
| when she spoke.
|
| In fact they were enthusiastic about the task and she was given
| free reign- and this was a Texan company; Texas as far as I
| understand is the bastion of right wing politics in the US (I'm
| not American. Forgive me if I'm wrong), and here's a _foreign
| woman_ being given free reign.
|
| So, what happened? 40 years later and I'm being told nearly
| constantly that games are discriminating towards women.
|
| I work in games, have for close to a decade, and HR beats us over
| the head for not hiring enough women. (Then later on our
| executives seem to sleaze on those women, which we also get
| blamed for. But. Hey Ho.)
| daniel-cussen wrote:
| Well Texas is also big into freedom. Free reign. Hey, Calamity
| Jane gets respect, no problem cowgirl!
| joemi wrote:
| > The most notable thing to me here is that nobody tried to
| stop it, they do not talk about barriers, only a vague mention
| that she might not have been nerdy enough but that notion was
| removed when she spoke.
|
| Well, in a way this is kind of like confirmation bias (or maybe
| a different bias term? or a tautology maybe?), I think. This is
| a story about a woman that we know got a job at that company,
| so she therefore met less obstructions in getting the job than
| everyone who didn't get a job (there or elsewhere). The fact
| that she got the job and was successful enough to be someone
| who had an article written herself is why the article was
| written.
|
| Texas being a bastion of right wing politics doesn't really
| matter at all in regards to systematic issue when we're looking
| at just a single data point. For instance, NYC could similarly
| be argued to be a bastion of left wing politics, but that
| doesn't mean there aren't occasional instances of racism,
| xenophobia, sexism, etc in NYC in individuals or organizations.
| It may be rare, but if you're looking for just a single
| example, it can be found, but it does not mean that it's
| common.
|
| > So, what happened? 40 years later and I'm being told nearly
| constantly that games are discriminating towards women.
|
| What do you mean what happened? Are you implying that with Van
| Mai's hire, gender discrimination was suddenly solved and no
| longer existed?
| jrajav wrote:
| This woman can make a video game in positive circumstances 40
| years ago and discrimination against women can still exist in
| the video game industry today. Those can both be true.
| dijit wrote:
| I'm not saying that they cannot both true.
|
| I'm asking what happened, which is an indication that...
| something changed, or was this an anomaly, or that the
| article is glossing over something
|
| Why are people attempting to read the least charitable
| interpretation of things today.
|
| HackerNews is usually more intellectually honest than this.
| enqk wrote:
| Back then there was no notion of what a game was and who is it
| for. Nowadays people making games grew up with them. Ultra-
| specialized, fans of the medium they work on. Diversity is more
| expected early on
| joemi wrote:
| Plus, building on this, the article mentions Van Tran having
| a 3 person team to make a game. On a team that size, the one
| women on the team has a much bigger influence than the one
| women on a larger (and sometimes MUCH larger) team that's
| more common today at big game companies.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| I'll say this about discriminatory environments: Most people in
| the group in power are unaware of the discrimination, to a
| degree that would have shocked me until I learned better.
|
| The key is to talk to the people who have the actual
| experience. Think of the absurdity of a bunch of men talking to
| each other about the experiences of women - like people in
| Quebec talking about how life is in Tijuana. If you want to
| sell something in Tijuana or Quebec, you'd ask the people that
| live there and listen to them, not talk among yourselves about
| it. If you did otherwise - if your market study for Tijuana was
| conducted among people in your Quebec office, your boss would
| fire you.
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