[HN Gopher] Data-Driven Deportation in the 21st Century
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Data-Driven Deportation in the 21st Century
Author : em3rgent0rdr
Score : 54 points
Date : 2022-05-13 19:19 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (americandragnet.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (americandragnet.org)
| ceeplusplus wrote:
| Seems quite biased, considering they call for "Congress [to]
| significantly reduce the number of people subject to deportation
| by--for example--creating a pathway to citizenship for
| undocumented people, dramatically [reduce] the grounds of
| removability that are based on criminal legal involvement, and
| [enact] a statute of limitations on deportations"
|
| Some people might argue that we should be dedicating our scarce
| housing resources towards expanding the number of legal
| immigrants with high value skills, not uneducated illegal
| immigrants, and that illegal immigrants deserve to be deported
| for entering the country illegally.
| trasz wrote:
| Housing is scarce because of investors buying it and then
| effectively wasting it, not because there are too many people.
| [deleted]
| RHSeeger wrote:
| You're oversimplifying with that statement. There are many
| reasons why housing is scarce, and that is only one of them.
|
| - Existing homeowners trying to prevent denser/more housing
|
| - Regulations and codes that make building much more
| expensive
|
| - (As you noted) existing housing being wasted as an
| investment
|
| and I'm sure there's much more.
| turtledove wrote:
| This is a false dichotomy, how we allocate housing is the wrong
| framing. The problem is that that housing is in any way a
| scarce resource. Solve that problem instead.
| ceeplusplus wrote:
| Those are two separate issues which both can be solved
| independently. We can simultaneously overturn SFH zoning and
| also aggressively deport illegal immigrants.
| ixtli wrote:
| The amount of money made by owners off of the labor of
| those undocumented people is strong evidence that we're
| throwing out a very valuable resource if we aggressively
| deport people.
| turtledove wrote:
| We could, or we could not deport humans and solve housing
| and probably be even better off...
| ceeplusplus wrote:
| Those illegal immigrants are here at the cost of the
| wages of legal citizens. If no legal citizens wanted to
| work for farmers, two things would happen, wages would go
| up (a lot), and investment in automation would go up.
| Both of those things are positives for the US economy and
| average unskilled US citizen. Food prices will go up, but
| I don't think they'll go up as much as you think as labor
| has never been the biggest component of farming costs.
|
| People don't have a right to live in the US just because
| they decided to walk across the border illegally.
| turtledove wrote:
| > Those illegal immigrants are here at the cost of the
| wages of legal citizens.
|
| No they aren't. This is xenophobic claptrap.
|
| Or at least it isn't self evident they are, and you've
| failed to provide any evidence they are.
| teakettle42 wrote:
| From your other comments, it seems like you believe that
| housing prices are subject to supply and demand; is that
| accurate?
|
| As in, failure to build enough supply for demand has
| driven up prices?
|
| Do you also believe that labor is subject to the same
| forces of supply and demand?
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| >" We could, or we could not deport humans and solve
| housing and probably be even better off... "
|
| This feels good to say, but it assumes there are no
| downsides whatsoever with no longer having deportation as
| an option and that we can 'solve' housing.
|
| I personally think we can make housing _better_ but
| housing issues have existed in every civilization
| throughout recorded history. I can 't help but think it's
| an emergent phenomenon when you get plenty of people
| living together in a world where land is limited and two
| pieces of matter cannot occupy the same space at the same
| time. Not that we shouldn't try to help, but the issue
| will never truly go away. And, letting _anyone_ who steps
| foot into your country stay for as long as they like
| seems like a recipe for creating housing demand that can
| never keep up with supply.
| tomjakubowski wrote:
| Undocumented immigrants provide a significant and grossly
| disproportionate chunk of construction labor in the United
| States. If you kick them out, the housing shortage only gets
| worse.
| bruceb wrote:
| Or to but it another way, wages would rise for Americans and
| legal immigrants in construction, especially those who have
| been involved with the justice system and have a record.
| WalterGR wrote:
| Why would they rise?
| [deleted]
| lelandbatey wrote:
| You're ignoring the very next line which states "why" they make
| this particular recommendation, a recommendation that they're
| pretty consistent about making throughout the rest of the
| document:
|
| > "While those reforms do not address surveillance itself, they
| are the most direct way to undercut ICE surveillance
| authority."
|
| This website, https://americandragnet.org/ , seems dedicated to
| curtailing dragnet surveillance in the USA. The facts around
| that surveillance are so disturbing that I'm amazed we can sit
| around and talk about deportation when it's a just a side show
| compared to the surveillance. The facts that they're laying
| out:
|
| - ICE is tracking your address, your home moves, and your
| driving habits (or at least, they're doing so for ~75% of
| people in the USA)
|
| - ICE is hijacking government functions like our DMVs and our
| utility companies _without oversight_ in order to find out who
| you are, where you live, who you live near, etc. in order to
| detain and deport... well, I 'll leave the who up to you, but
| if you're not uneasy with the start of that sentence, I doubt
| any way of ending it will either.
|
| It's not the deportations that are concerning; it's the paths
| we're taking to get there.
| colemannugent wrote:
| Keeping with ancient Solomonic tradition, I say we deport some
| top ICE officials until they knock it off.
| ixtli wrote:
| They participate in the operation of concentration camps at the
| southern border so I believe they are deserving of more harsh
| judgement.
| ixtli wrote:
| It has always been conspicuous to me how vocal most Americans are
| about wanting personal privacy AND about wanting "smaller"
| government but at the same time not doing much of anything when
| things like this, the Snowden leaks, and etc come out. We spend
| very, very large amounts of money on this and if you listen to
| pundits it's not doing anything because the "crisis" of "illegal"
| immigration is always getting worse.
|
| It reminds me very much of backscatter machines at the airport
| and the insistence that we don't bring bottles larger than 3 or 4
| oz on a flight.
| turtledove wrote:
| In general, folks who are asking for a small government aren't
| actually asking for a small government. They are asking for the
| government to reallocate to the things they care about and away
| from the things they don't.
|
| "Small government" is just a pleasing label that is more
| marketable for their priorities.
| ixtli wrote:
| I generally agree that the people you're talking about are
| unique in how they obfuscate their intentions when they talk
| about this stuff. It's always parsing slogans and decoding
| in-group concepts.
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| I think the truth is that the American political system is
| structured in such a way that substantive policy change is
| monumentally difficult and not correlated with how angry or how
| vocal the citizenry is about any particular topic. Virtually
| everyone I know was appalled by the Snowden leaks, yet I know
| of no one that actually changed their vote. Or, if any
| candidate ran on dismantling the surveillance state got elected
| in the aftermath.
| ixtli wrote:
| I think this is best illustrated in the pathological US need
| for every level of the entire infrastructure stack to be
| revenue positive. The recent whinging about the post office
| is a great example. Further, people asking "whos going to
| pay" for trains demonstrates the lack of complex thinking. By
| way of counter example: the Japanese have figured out how to
| value the high speed train network by how much business it
| enables every year as opposed to simply looking at how much
| it costs vs ticket revenue. This isn't, of course, to imply
| that somehow Japan is magically better. Just that countries
| like France and China who have less decrepit, more complete
| public infrastructure didnt get there by accident.
| MarkMarine wrote:
| Regardless of what you think about legal or illegal immigration,
| the use of the drivers license data is seems like quite a
| violation. The states that do this to setup all people in the
| states with driver's licenses so that they are: 1. meeting the
| minimum bar for being a safe driver. 2. driving a registered and
| insured car that meets the laws of the state.
|
| This is good for citizens, I've been hit by someone driving an
| unregistered, uninsured car who was undocumented and it was a
| nightmare to deal with. I had to eat the cost of fixing my bike,
| and luckily I was covered by the military health insurance for my
| injuries or that would have been exponentially worse.
|
| Using this data for immigration enforcement pushes drivers back
| to the illegal, unregistered, uninsured situation that existed
| before. It puts a tax on regular citizens who are following the
| rules.
| sieabahlpark wrote:
| It wouldn't need to if we just enforced the existing laws at the
| border.
| turtledove wrote:
| Or repealed those laws.
| nopenoperope wrote:
| How so? Visa overstays have accounted for the majority of
| illegal immigration for over a decade now (62% vs 38% for
| border crossing as of 2019).
| barbacoa wrote:
| Those are 2019 numbers. There has been a massive upsurge in
| illegal crossing starting in 2020. Many have attributed that
| surge to the Biden administration new catch and release
| policy. People who are caught at the border now are bussed to
| the closest major city and told to go to immigration court
| hearing -- which most just skip.
|
| https://www.statista.com/chart/20326/mexicans-non-
| mexcians-a...
| michaelbrave wrote:
| hardly anyone actually crosses a border illegally, almost all
| illegal immigrants came via legal means and stayed beyond the
| time limits. By almost all I mean literally almost all.
|
| The real solution is to hit employers that employ them, as how
| many people are in this counry illegally has very little to do
| with actual border control(meaning watching the border).
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| If nopenoperope can be believed, it was 62% overstays and 38%
| illegal crossings in 2019. That's the majority, but it's not
| "literally almost all".
| ixtli wrote:
| This simple reality gets overlooked all the time. A large
| portion of labor in this country is undocumented. The
| employers, whos existence depends on this and related labor
| abuses, are rarely if ever held accountable and its the
| people DOING the work who get abused.
| doh wrote:
| I'm sorry, but can you expand on this claim? Do you believe
| that laws are not enforced at the border? Do the agents let
| anyone in or what is your believe that is happening?
|
| Just FYI I live close to the border and go often there and it's
| swarming with officers, all cars are being checked even when on
| the US side and crossing the border is quite an ordeal even if
| you are a citizen forget being an immigrant.
| barbacoa wrote:
| >>Do the agents let anyone in or what is your believe that is
| happening?
|
| What happens is,
|
| Immigrants will come to the border and claim asylum then once
| they're in the country skip the asylum court hearing. The
| judge issues a deportation order but by then there is no way
| to find them.
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