[HN Gopher] Germany: Crypto held for more than a year will not g...
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Germany: Crypto held for more than a year will not get taxed
Author : mpyllan
Score : 278 points
Date : 2022-05-13 12:28 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.vanticatrading.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.vanticatrading.com)
| intabli wrote:
| Yet another attack on peer to peer electronic cash, masquerading
| as a benefit handed over by the amazing thoughtful overlords to
| their ignorant peasants. Cryptocurrency is CURRENCY, meant to be
| spent and replaced and worked for, not "Hodl bro" like idiots
| everywhere tout.
| somenameforme wrote:
| One interesting aspect of any form of currency that is strictly
| finite (like most crypto implementations are) is that it will
| become deflationary over time. Economies, demand, etc will grow
| but the amount of currency will stay, more or less, the same.
| So the currency will inherently become worth more.
|
| Good and bad depending on how you look at. As a holder, it's
| good because your money becomes worth more. But on a
| macroeconomic level, there's an argument to be made that
| inflation is good because it basically is a deterrent against
| 'hodlllll' and a motivator for things like lending and what
| not, which help the gears of the economy churn. But we're
| probably going to get to see the endgame of the inflationary
| fiat game in our lives and I guess we just get to see whether a
| depressionary crash or an inflationary crash is less awful.
| dcolkitt wrote:
| This is common folk wisdom, but not exactly what
| macroeconomists actually believe. It's true that deflationary
| _shocks_ tend to lead to hoarding money and economic activity
| freezing. But long-run deflation that 's baked into the
| system and expected appears to have no impact on economic
| activity.
|
| We know this from the economic history of the 19th century.
| The entire period from 1815-1914 was broadly deflationary,
| yet economic growth rates were significantly higher than the
| 20th century. There was certainly no shortage of massive
| investment made into industrialization, railroads,
| electrification, and fossil fuels among other major
| endeavors.
|
| https://www.nber.org/digest/apr04/good-versus-bad-
| deflation-...
| jossclimb wrote:
| What are capital gains like in Europe / Germany, similar to here
| in the US?
| BlargMcLarg wrote:
| Europe doesn't have universal capital gains tax. In fact, a
| country might not have a capital gains tax at all.
|
| Germany has a flat 25% from what I can tell.
| mpyllan wrote:
| The German Federal Ministry of Finance has published a document
| defining and framing the different types of cryptocurrency gains.
| lern_too_spel wrote:
| "Please don't use HN primarily for promotion. It's ok to post
| your own stuff occasionally, but the primary use of the site
| should be for curiosity."
| skizm wrote:
| If I hold physical gold bars in my basement for more than a year
| and sell at a profit, how is that taxed? Should be the same,
| right?
| lxgr wrote:
| Maybe? But now consider "tokenized stocks" (setting the
| legality of it aside for a moment) - should these be taxed as
| property instead of investments too?
| scrollaway wrote:
| Yes, and it is.
| G3rn0ti wrote:
| Not in Germany. If you hold your gold bars for longer than a
| year and you sell'em -- no taxes. German capital gains tax
| applies to stock and derivates (i.e. papers) but not to
| commodities (physical things like gold, cars or other
| hardware). So even while cryptos are non-physical they are
| treated like physical items. And that kind of makes sense if
| you believe Bitcoin is like digital gold. However, there will
| be a dispute at some point I guess when it comes to typical
| government tokens because they resemble very much a stock
| shares with voting rights.
| Erwin wrote:
| Interesting to compare that to what happens across the border in
| Denmark, where crypto is treated as speculation: EVERY individual
| sale you make has the profit taxed as personal income (calculated
| as FIFO and so up to ~52%) but the losses have deduction taxed
| separately at about 26%.
|
| Thus you can end the year with 0 net profit, but a huge tax bill!
| fweimer wrote:
| Primary source:
| https://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/Content/DE/Downloads/...
|
| There are several caveats with this. First of all, this comes
| from the treasury (executive branch). There is considerable room
| for interpretation, and courts may apply existing laws
| differently than the treasury intends.
|
| Furthermore, according to the letter, the tax-free period only
| applies to currency tokens (which are defined as tokens to be
| used for payment purposes). The tokens that routinely make the
| news do not seem to be in that category. Other tokens may be
| taxed differently. Here's an example: if someone algorithmically
| pegs the value of a token to some stock index, it is very likely
| that you still have to pay the usual 25% capital gains tax once
| you sell it. Undoubtedly someone will set up a coin like that and
| take fees in anticipation of tax savings, but this will work out
| only for some time, until the tax office catches up--or not at
| all, if the token is never classified as a payment/currency token
| in the first place.
| Gustomaximus wrote:
| I assume they have rules around how you acquire, otherwise ask
| your company to make you a contractor so you work for $1 but have
| the right to buy $XXXX of crypto every month for another $1.
|
| If you have the savings to live a year + happy with the risk you
| could be income tax free?
| k__ wrote:
| Only for privat investors.
|
| If you got paid in crypto, you will get taxed.
|
| And the feds try everything to link crypto you got to some
| service you provided for it, even if it's just a retweet.
| pavlov wrote:
| ...Will not get taxed as income but instead as capital gains.
|
| Americans are familiar with this system, it's how short-term and
| long-term capital gains work in the USA.
|
| Edit -- my misunderstanding, German system is different after
| all. See asldjajlfkj's reply below.
| recursive wrote:
| American here. Did not know short-term and long-term were
| different things.
| asldjajlfkj wrote:
| No. A "Privatverkauf" is tax free after one year. If you sell
| before that it is taxed as income. Crypto is never taxed as
| capital gains in Germany.
| pavlov wrote:
| Thanks for the clarification! I edited my reply.
|
| I have to say, this blows the mind for Americans who assume
| European countries are tax hells. The IRS will tax
| everything, sometimes before you've sold it: I had to pay
| mark-to-market capital gains tax on unrealized gains in a
| foreign mutual fund I'd bought before moving to USA.
| _zoltan_ wrote:
| Then you'll be surprised to learn that Switzerland doesn't
| even have capital gains tax on any security (crypto,
| ETF...).
| mbeex wrote:
| But property tax AFAIK (contrary to Germany)
| pavlov wrote:
| Not really surprised about that. Switzerland, Luxembourg
| - they're well known as attractive tax regimes. The
| surprising aspect is that there's so many options in the
| middle. Even in the EU, every country has a unique
| combination of tax features, and knowledge about one or
| two of them doesn't translate. Portugal is unlike Italy
| is unlike France is unlike Germany is unlike Sweden is
| unlike Finland.
|
| My humble opinion is that some of this should be
| harmonized on the EU level. There's no reason to leave so
| many tax loopholes for those able to exploit them, other
| than each country's wealthy lobbying to maintain their
| own peculiar benefits.
| stiltzkin wrote:
| Best summary so far.
| 0daystock wrote:
| Same as in the US: MFJ gets to claim up to $83,350 of long-
| term capital gains without any tax.
| niij wrote:
| Capital gains are tax free if your total taxable income is
| below that $83k (including w-2/1099 earnings as well). Not
| just income from capital gains.
| ben_bai wrote:
| German income tax rate is progressive, and maxes out at 45%.
| While capital gain tax is a flat 25%
| pavlov wrote:
| Yes, it's the same in USA.
|
| (The federal rates are lower, but state and local taxes can
| push your tax bill up to European levels, especially if you
| own property in a desirable area.)
| mbeex wrote:
| Point here is, crypto - as well as Gold and Real Estate -
| are considered a special case of capital. Contrary to stock
| they have - different - 'speculation periods'
| (Spekulationsfristen). If they are held beyond this period,
| no tax is collected for gains of the sale. This was true
| for stock too before 2009 (unfortunately).
| edmundsauto wrote:
| I think you're probably aware of this, but for non Americans
| - this is the same as in the US. Except I think the capital
| gains rate (holdings > 1 year) is 15%?
|
| (America also has progressive income tax that caps out around
| 40% I believe... any gains from holdings sold < 1 year are
| "short term capital gains" which is at standard income tax
| rates)
| [deleted]
| rcMgD2BwE72F wrote:
| If you're poor and only have your work to sell, you'll get
| taxed progressively until you're rich enough to save money
| and invest. Meaning your effective tax rate increases as you
| get reasonably rich (from work) and then when you're really
| rich, the rate slowly decreases down to the level of capital
| gain tax. I don't understand why this is accepted. I find
| this revolting as I'm in the position to benefit (my tax rate
| going below that of people far less wealthy than me).
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| I feel the same way. Income is income. Hell if I lose my
| $150k a year job and take a $120k job just because I need
| money coming in I can't get a $30k "capital losses"
| advantage on my taxes like I can with stocks. Tax system is
| rigged against middle and lower classes everywhere it
| seems.
| chii wrote:
| capital gains is income from investing, which is how new
| productivity gets funded (via buying new plant and
| equipment, etc).
|
| Encouraging investments is not a bad idea. Of course, it's
| possible to be too pro-investment, but a 25% flat rate on
| investment based income is not too low, but not too high.
| It's slightly lower than wage income as an incentive for
| people to save and invest.
| idiotsecant wrote:
| >investing, which is how new productivity gets funded
|
| As opposed to working, which is how productivity actually
| happens.
| rcMgD2BwE72F wrote:
| >capital gains is income from investing, which is how new
| productivity gets funded (via buying new plant and
| equipment, etc).
|
| How does that justify taxing work more than capital? For
| people with high salary, any extra income (from work) is
| taxed almost 2x that of capital gains.
|
| Also, only a small % of investment actually goes funding
| productivity. Most is just rich people's money changing
| hands, base only on speculation with zero regards for
| impact on businesses/society.
|
| >a 25% flat rate on investment based income is not too
| low, but not too high
|
| Do you have a study on this, or is this your opinion?
| chii wrote:
| > a study on this, or is this your opinion?
|
| it is an opinion. The policy setting is not a fact based
| research, but ideologically based opinion. i would argue
| that any research is basically paid opinion pieces to try
| and convince someone on the fence.
|
| > How does that justify taxing work more than capital?
|
| the justification is in my comment above - it is taxed
| less than wage income to encourage people to spend their
| money investing, rather than spending it in consumption.
| BlargMcLarg wrote:
| But capital gains tax alone doesn't make the entire
| equation of risk vs reward, unless you're putting capital
| gains tax all the way to 100%. Even if it was 90%, if the
| risk was zero, the time investment was near zero and the
| reward was your assets going up by 4% post-tax, you'd bet
| people would still invest, regardless of income tax.
| chii wrote:
| > if the risk was zero
|
| no investment has zero risk.
|
| in any case, the 90% tax would discourage the investment
| for some people - because that investment might not
| return enough to be worth the opportunity cost of
| consumption instead. The point is, more investments means
| more possible productivity in the future, and any
| consumption->investment switch is good.
|
| This is the same calculus as wage tax of course, but
| since most people don't have a choice but to work for a
| wage, they don't need to be incentivized to work by lower
| taxes.
| nybble41 wrote:
| > and any consumption->investment switch is good
|
| Not always: It is possible to _over_ -invest and _under_
| -consume. Don't forget that the purpose of investment in
| the present is to enable consumption in the future. In
| the extreme case, a society which only invested and never
| consumed would starve to death. There is a natural
| balance point, and moving away from that point _in either
| direction_ results in a less efficient allocation of
| resources.
| chii wrote:
| > It is possible to over-invest and under-consume.
|
| certainly is, but i would argue that more people under-
| invest and over-consume! I would also argue that the
| minimal amount of consumption (let's say, you keep
| yourself alive, just barely), and maximizing your
| investment amount, is the best outcome for your future,
| and is the most efficient allocation of resources.
| rcMgD2BwE72F wrote:
| >it is taxed less than wage income to encourage people to
| spend their money investing, rather than spending it in
| consumption.
|
| Did you mean speculating? A few % of so-called investors
| are actually supporting new businesses. I believe it's
| obvious when you think about investing in crypto.
| chii wrote:
| investments don't have to be "supporting businesses" for
| it to be worthwhile. Speculative investments also work.
| littlecranky67 wrote:
| This argument is brought up over and over, but people
| forget that companies in Germany pay roughly 30%
| (depending on county) tax on their profits. As a solo
| entrepreneur with a registered company, that would mean
| if I make 100EUR of profit, 30EUR company tax are
| deducted, and then 25% of the remaining 70EUR as capital
| gains tax when I pay myself the dividends - so I am left
| with ~53EUR. That is 47% tax in total, which is actually
| higher than the maximum personal income tax bracket
| (42%).
| chii wrote:
| yes, this is double taxation, which i don't personally
| like.
|
| In australia, there's franked dividends, which basically
| passes the tax credits down to shareholders (effectively,
| companies pay a 30% tax, but give that same dollar amount
| as credits to shareholders, who can then use it as tax
| paid in lieu). See
| https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/frankeddividend.asp
| leipert wrote:
| But if you get dividends or profits from stock as a
| private person that doesn't apply and you just pay
| capital gains.
|
| If you have a company or are a solo entrepreneur you can
| also reduce your profits by expensing things via the
| company (tech, cars, etc.) or investing further.
| littlecranky67 wrote:
| I does apply equally if you got stocks - at least on a
| national level as AG (Aktiengesellschaft in Germany) pay
| equal amount of corporate taxes. But yes, it got kind of
| skewed with international companies like amazon etc.
| paying no taxes at all. But we should fix that (them not
| paying any corporate tax), and not punish small shops
| like me (again, I am a solo-enterpreneur/developer - if
| you tax me 30% corporate tax + 42% on dividends, I will
| leave germany next day).
| leipert wrote:
| I am just wondering which kind of
| ,,Selbststandigkeit"/incorporation you are talking about.
| If you are solo-selbststandig no special tax of 30%
| applies, maybe Gewerbesteuer which is much lower.
|
| If you are running a GmbH or UG or GbR things might be
| different, but then why don't you keep assets inside of
| the entity? Then the entity could grow its assets and you
| could only take what you need and save some assets for
| the future. (Assuming you make more than what you need to
| maintain your lifestyle)
| littlecranky67 wrote:
| Yes, a "Selbststandiger" is taxed with personal income
| tax, but as I wrote, I am incorporated ("1-Mann GmbH"). I
| was tax "Selbststandig" for over 5 years and moved to a
| GmbH (=LLC) for various reasons completely unrelated to
| tax discussions (mostly protection of private assets and
| limited liability but also other reasons).
|
| Edit: Corporate tax in Germany consists of two parts,
| Gewerbesteuer and Korperschaftssteuer. Those vary
| depending on where you are incorporated in Germany
| (Hebesatz), but 30% is a good rough estimate.
| littlecranky67 wrote:
| Regarding cars: Yes, it is cheaper to run business cars
| but its pretty limited. There is the 1% rule in germany,
| then a monthly of 1% of the cars shop-price (we use the
| nice word Bruttolistenneupreis) is considered income and
| taxed regularly. If a car costs 30.000EUR, that means you
| have to add 300EUR/monthly (virtually) onto your tax bill
| that is taxed as personal income. There are limits to the
| "you can tax deduct everything as a business" in Germany.
| bckygldstn wrote:
| By the same logic, income tax comes from working, which
| is how productivity gets done!
|
| Besides, what are the wealthy going to do with their
| excess wealth except invest it?
| ruggeri wrote:
| That might be true if they couldn't move wealth outside
| the country.
|
| But a concern is that those with savings might move money
| out of the country to invest in jurisdictions with lower
| capital gains tax.
|
| One view is that this tax jurisdiction forum-shopping
| creates a race to the bottom.
| snovv_crash wrote:
| It's the same for workers, they can just perform their
| labour outside of the country and they would create a
| much larger problem.
| pydry wrote:
| >Encouraging investments is not a bad idea.
|
| It definitely is if theres a glut of capital.
|
| Which there is and has been for at least a decade.
| papito wrote:
| With all the wining about European socialism, this is what I
| pay with combined NYC, state, and federal taxes, plus all the
| deductions for the safety net that the government should
| provide anyway.
| goatcode wrote:
| Another rule benefiting large investment firms and hurting
| individuals. Nothing surprising here.
| Hendrikto wrote:
| What are you talking about? As a German individual, I am very
| happy with this.
|
| If you trade professionally, you will have to deal with tax
| implications, but that's your job, so it's fine.
|
| If you are just a small investor staking some coins, this
| decreases the burden on you.
|
| How does this benefit big players at the cost of retail
| investors?
| goatcode wrote:
| Whom do you believe has a greater capability to hold anything
| for a longer period of time: the individual, or the
| investment firm? And for holding for a short period, and thus
| having to deal with taxes: again, whom do you believe more
| capable of dealing with that?
|
| Any regulation is an advantage to large over small, at the
| right level of large vs. small, since the burden of
| optimizing to win is more easily borne by the former. In some
| cases, it's just more obvious.
| zzzbra wrote:
| On the face of it this would seem to create further disincentives
| to use crypto for its intended purpose.
| arcticbull wrote:
| The intended purpose is to move real human money from late
| entrants to early entrants. This helps further the intended
| purpose.
| jkepler wrote:
| Can you provide a source for your statement? Nothing in the
| Satoshi white paper says that was the purpose, and Satoshi
| wasn't even sure if the project would work as digital cash,
| much less enable wealth transfers.
| arcticbull wrote:
| Oh it's got nothing to do with what it started as, and
| everything to do with what it is today.
|
| Satoshi didn't mention:
|
| - Substantially everyone never making on-chain transactions
| and instead using centralized, trusted, censorable, KYC-
| required custodial exchanges to speculate on the price of
| cryptos. Where they're not even segregated in the event of
| exchange insolvency.
|
| - Have BNY Mellon and Fidelity custody your coins.
|
| - Run your crypto transactions using a Visa debit card.
|
| - The biggest players in the space being Cumberland/DRW,
| Alameda and Jump Crypto.
|
| - Have transaction fees as high as $60 - $250+ if you
| factor in block reward.
|
| - 100X leverage trading at off-shore bucket shops
| denominated in synthetic dollar derivatives that simply
| evaporate if you look at them sideways.
|
| - [edit] using a country worth of power to guess random
| numbers by machines that will 97% of the time never guess a
| single random number right in their entire productive
| lives.
|
| Wall Street owns crypto, and Satoshi would be horrified.
|
| Satoshi envisioned a "Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System"
| - not a store of value, not digital gold, not a wild
| number-go-up-machine.
|
| Today's thought leadership has different goals.
| greiskul wrote:
| - Have transaction fees as high as $60 - $250+ if you
| factor in block reward.
|
| This goes so far outside the original vision, that makes
| me wonder if current believers in crypto even read the
| paper. Satoshi's vision was that existing ways to
| transfer money on the internet had too high overheads,
| which made micropayments impossible.
| buf wrote:
| What are Germany's long-term cap gains rules for normal equities?
| anaisbetts wrote:
| Germany doesn't distinguish between long/short term, it's a
| simple ~25% flat tax no matter what
| xioxox wrote:
| I believe there is a tax free threshold of 801EUR for singles
| and 1602EUR for couples, however.
| davidkuennen wrote:
| Always 25% of your profit at the time you sell your equity.
| They abolished the tax free long time rule 2009.
| aeyes wrote:
| 26.375%, there is no way to get around the 5.5% solidarity
| surcharge.
| agentultra wrote:
| > Additionally, Germany has 1,430 Bitcoin nodes, representing
| 9.08% of the total global nodes, putting it in second place in
| nodes held just behind the United States and ahead of France,
| with only 3.35%.
|
| This doesn't sound like something Germany should be proud of.
| Haven't they been shutting down their nuclear plants and relying
| on/expanding coal usage to keep up with demands (while slowly
| trying to replace supply with alternatives)?
|
| > One study found that the nuclear phase-out caused $12 billion
| in social costs per year, primarily due to increases in mortality
| due to exposure to pollution from fossil fuels. [0]
|
| And it's reliance on Russia for gas and coal... it seems like
| Bitcoin mining is something they ought to be discouraging.
|
| What's the reasoning behind a move like this?
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany
| [deleted]
| abxytg wrote:
| One day we'll have the conversation about how the anti-crypto
| conversation is mostly gross groupthink and at least two or
| three struggling devrel influencers are now anti-crypto media
| darlings. If you're going to push an agenda at least make it
| one that wasn't handed to you shrink wrapped.
| mlyle wrote:
| ?? If one isn't all-in on cryptocurrency, it only must be
| because they're influenced by anti-crypto shills?
|
| I've been thinking about digital money for 25 years. I have
| an early proof-of-work patent. I very much think for myself.
|
| I really don't like proof-of-work for ledgers: they're
| resource intensive and wasteful. I don't really like
| abrogating the power of states and central banks to mint
| unbacked currency to various coalitions. And this looks like
| a scary, poorly regulated asset bubble that may pop with
| rather extreme effects.
| shaky-carrousel wrote:
| Defense overspending is wasteful. Plastic wrapping
| everything is wasteful. Not using public transport is
| wasteful. People streaming media is wasteful.
|
| Proof of work? The entire worldwide bitcoin network uses
| less power that all the appliances in stand-by mode just in
| America, and I still have to see someone complaining about
| how wasteful stand-by mode is. Now, suddenly, the Bitcoin
| network is wasteful.
|
| This is not ecological consciousness. This is Luddism all
| over again. A bunch of old people scared about the world
| changing.
| mlyle wrote:
| > Proof of work? The entire worldwide bitcoin network
| uses less power that all the appliances in stand-by mode
| just in America, and I still have to see someone
| complaining about how wasteful stand-by mode is.
|
| We've spent tons of money and had massive amounts of
| regulation and standards over the past couple of decades
| to try and reduce standby power. It's presently estimated
| at 5-10% of US power, versus 10-20% a couple decades ago.
| A relatively big share of it is very old devices.
|
| I'm not opposed to distributed ledgers. Proof of stake
| will be augmented to provide nearly the same level of
| guarantee as proof of work, without all the power draw.
| mirntyfirty wrote:
| Appliances serve clear purposes for the entire
| population. I am yet to here of a meaningful Bitcoin
| purpose, even for the small handful of "investors."
| shaky-carrousel wrote:
| Well, here's a meaningful purpose by yours truly. I live
| in Spain and in Argentina. I have to regularly send money
| to Argentina. International transfers to Argentina are
| really expensive. Also, in Argentina the currency
| exchange is being manipulated by the government, like
| what happens in Venezuela. And all transfers have to be
| at the exchange rate dictated by the government.
|
| Except for crypto currencies. They operate in a grey
| market, not forbidden, not approved.
|
| Without bitcoin, I'd have to transfer money at the
| oficial rate, and I'd have to have another person on the
| other side filling the endless paperwork they require.
| With bitcoin (litecoin nowadays, cheaper transactions)
| it's done in a few hours.
| abxytg wrote:
| that is not by any stretch of the imagination what I am
| saying. I also am very very far from all in on crypto
| ideologically and financially.
|
| The poster above was parroting concerns du jour about
| bitcoin miners to shit on a policy regarding bitcoin nodes.
| I'm just saying lets be serious in our critiques.
| bubersson wrote:
| You can run a node on your phone... Node is a different thing
| from a miner.
| mattwilsonn888 wrote:
| satronaut wrote:
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| Bitcoin Nodes are often simple computers. You can run your own
| node on cheap commodity hardware and they are not particularly
| resource intensive. The main concern with these machines is
| drive space.
|
| Bitcoin miners are the big energy consumers. Nodes help
| validate the network but they do not perform the intensive
| proof of work calculations.
| Mo3 wrote:
| This has always been the case.
|
| I've been seeing this spammed all around the internet today. I
| wonder if there may be some... motivation behind it.
|
| // Edit, for whatever it's worth, I'm CTO at a major hedge fund
| at NYSE and the CEO literally just sent me the same damn article
| hosted on a different URL. I pointed out that it has always been
| the case and he replied with a GIF of a puppeteer.
| informalo wrote:
| That's not true. Before, crypto currencies used for staking and
| lending were only exempt after at least 10 years of holding.
| This has changed now.
| qwertox wrote:
| > This has changed now.
|
| Where does it say that?
| Mo3 wrote:
| The title literally says "HELD".
| informalo wrote:
| I realize that. I was replying to the parent comment that
| claims that it has always been like this which is not true.
| Mo3 wrote:
| Yeah, you were replying to me. It's still not true.
| _Holding_ cryptocurrency has always had a speculative
| period of 1 year.
| informalo wrote:
| Ok, fair enough, it's a misunderstanding based on
| terminology
| lxgr wrote:
| It does not apply to stocks, bonds, mutual funds, and most
| other securities, which I would consider somewhat relevant
| asset classes.
| Mo3 wrote:
| I stand corrected, that is the way it has been before 2009
| when I lived in Germany. I've edited the original comment.
|
| It has, however, always been the case for cryptocurrency.
| This is not a new tax law or anything of significance.
| fock wrote:
| maybe because crypto is supposed to be currency ;)
| arcticbull wrote:
| I mean its dreadful at that so.
| Mo3 wrote:
| I highly recommend this research article - "The Philosophy
| of Bitcoin and the Question of Money"
|
| https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0263276421104
| 9...
| throwaway4good wrote:
| Your boss sends you a gif of a puppeteer?
| karkisuni wrote:
| maybe they have a good relationship with their boss and
| communicate in ways that work for them and match the world we
| live in? does your boss still communicate with you in formal
| memos?
| aaaaaaaaata wrote:
| Mo3 wrote:
| Of course. Yours doesn't?
|
| We're both executives. Besides, I have to admit that it's
| always super funny realizing that we have flatter hierarchies
| and better work climate at a damn hedge fund than most
| places.
|
| And we're not even crooks! Would you believe that. Crazy.
| [deleted]
| ManuelKiessling wrote:
| This is nonsense. E.g. you can sell a house tax-free no earlier
| than two years after you've bought it, and only if you oived in
| it -- if not, you need to wait 10 years for a tax-free sale.
| TacticalCoder wrote:
| Two years if you live in it is not very different from one
| year. The 10 years for secondary houses is about preventing
| house shortages I guess. People need to be able to buy or
| rent a place to live: nobody _needs_ to own cryptos.
| PinguTS wrote:
| Funfact, if you move in directly after buying, you can sell
| it even in the very same year tax-free in the gains.
|
| The two years plus 1 day rule applies only of the curse of 10
| years, if you haven't moved in directly.
| Mo3 wrote:
| Real estate is not a traditional asset class.
| trashtester wrote:
| I always used to think that real estate / claim to
| territory was the most traditional asset of all, dating
| back way farther than our species.
| randbox wrote:
| No other species has the recorder of deeds \ title
| registrar \ court system to enforce claims over territory
| in absentia without the continual presence of the
| beneficiary. Even among humans most of Earth's territory
| is considered common property and not excludable or
| conveyable personal property when considering the ocean.
| Practically speaking something is only an asset in a
| financial context when ownership can be conveyed on paper
| and pledged as collateral for a loan.
| trashtester wrote:
| Many animals use urine to "write" their claim to
| ownership. Trespassers get punished severely, and they
| know it. The message implies a high willingnes to enforce
| their claim, even at significant risk. Rivals usually
| stay away unless they are either desperate or confident
| that they are superior.
|
| I would argue that these are the instincts that form the
| basis for our concept of ownership of assets, and predate
| our modern justice systems by tens of millions of years.
| [deleted]
| davidkuennen wrote:
| I'm from Germany and sold my ETH at the peak some time ago with a
| profit of ~80k. It was a very strange feeling to receive that
| completely untaxed, as everything else is taxed here.
| zmb_ wrote:
| Physical gold is also tax free after a year in Germany.
| can16358p wrote:
| To be honest, it is the way it should be. Government taxing
| crypto is similar to mafia holding a gun and asking you for
| money.
|
| Good that they didn't go that way (even if only applies to
| assets held > 1 year)
| traveler01 wrote:
| I get some public services need the tax money to function.
| But governments nowadays tax people beyond oblivion,
| specially in Europe.
| can16358p wrote:
| That was my concern too. Governments already have WAY TOO
| MUCH power and the last thing we should be doing is to make
| governments richer.
|
| Don't know about Germany but in my country government is
| corrupted and and tax paid is going straight into
| corruption.
|
| While mine is one of the worse, it's definitely not the
| only one.
|
| Do not support corruption.
| speedgoose wrote:
| The average European has a good quality of life though.
| seibelj wrote:
| Yeah it's crazy why anyone emigrates from Europe to the
| US
| 0daystock wrote:
| sofixa wrote:
| Literally any EU country has a constitution, and follow
| the EU convention on human rights. Your rights are
| recognised, protected and that can't be changed without
| at least a supermajority, usually more.
|
| What's the difference?
| Aachen wrote:
| You'd probably love to learn of the European Convention
| on Human Rights.
|
| These rights go on top of whatever EU member states might
| have in their national laws. And it has its own
| independent court (ECHR).
| 0daystock wrote:
| seibelj wrote:
| I think my sarcasm is too dry in this thread
| speedgoose wrote:
| To improve their life? Immigration of qualified workers
| is a bit different.
| version_five wrote:
| This is pretty ignorant. Assuming your comment is based
| on a actual experience in both places (and ignoring how
| heterogeneous "Europe" and "the US" are), the comment is
| still equivalent to saying "it's crazy that someone has
| different priorities than me"
| chii wrote:
| it's hard to get high wages in europe compared to
| america. So it makes sense to work in america for a
| while, save and invest, and eventually come back to
| europe to retire or live a more leisurely lifestyle.
| seibelj wrote:
| But their lifestyle is so much worse the moment they step
| foot in America
| bowsamic wrote:
| mrep wrote:
| This may come as a shock to you, but not everyone has the
| same lifestyle preferences as you do.
| dcolkitt wrote:
| Americans enjoy substantially higher material consumption
| than their European counterparts. The US has 85% higher
| household consumption expenditures than France (about the
| median of the EU15). The difference between the US and
| France is about equivalent to the difference between
| France and Mexico.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_househ
| old...
| speedgoose wrote:
| Is it common to associate quality of life and
| consumption? I'm sure there is some correlation but it
| seems a bit strange, especially when you think about
| things France has such as universal free healthcare or
| free access to good education.
| lexapro wrote:
| Median wealth per adult in the US: $79,274 Median
| wealth per adult in France: $133,559
|
| _Mean_ wealth per adult is reversed (much higher in the
| US), because a few US billionaires are really really
| rich. But unless you 're one of the few lucky
| billionaires, you're doing better living in France.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth
| _pe...
| lioeters wrote:
| "Good quality of life" is not the same as "higher
| material consumption", though the former is
| unquantifiable and subjective. As someone who has lived
| about equal amount of time in the U.S., I'd say I have
| better quality of life in Europe but less material
| consumption.
| 0daystock wrote:
| Meanwhile, the quality of life in America is great, not
| merely "good".
| vanviegen wrote:
| Incoming has been taxed for a long time. If new ways of
| obtaining such incoming arrise (crypto), wouldn't it be
| unfair _not_ to tax them? That has little to do with greedy
| governments.
| iamben wrote:
| Counterpoint - in the UK, I can turn up at a hospital
| anytime and they'll look after me. The place is generally
| tidy, amenities are good, emergency services efficient,
| roads good etc. (I appreciate there's always exceptions to
| this). I can earn no or very little money and still be
| (mostly) taken care of by the state. My taxes cover this,
| and also cover those that can't pay. As such, life is (I
| expect) much better for those with less than it was a
| hundred years ago and society is probably happier and more
| stable as a whole.
|
| I don't know if we have it completely correct and there's
| definitely a balancing act. There's also growing
| inequality. But what's the _right_ amount of tax to pay?
| Not referencing you directly, but I often see crypto
| threads that call for the government to "keep their hands
| of _my_ money " - and I wonder if these people would still
| say the same thing when their bins weren't emptied, or the
| roads were so full of potholes the lambo couldn't drive on
| them etc etc.
| bowsamic wrote:
| > in the UK, I can turn up at a hospital anytime and
| they'll look after me.
|
| Where the hell do you live in the UK because that's
| certainly not true in Birmingham. I moved to Germany and
| got orthopaedics, MRI, and physio in the space of 3
| weeks. Would have taken months in the UK during COVID.
| Have you actually tried using the NHS?
|
| > I can earn no or very little money and still be
| (mostly) taken care of by the state.
|
| Also not true, the conservative government are very
| aggressive about taking away benefits
| traveler01 wrote:
| I'm from Portugal, afaik we get taxed a lot more than
| you. For reference, the minimum wage is ~700EUR.
|
| See the prices:
|
| - We pay a lot more for cars, for example a 20000EUR car
| in Germany costs 25000-30000EUR in Portugal. After
| acquiring a car, depending on the engine capacity you pay
| more taxes (if you get a after-2010 car). For example, I
| drive a BMW 316d from 2017 and I pay 250EUR anually to
| the state just to drive it. Our roads are garbage filled
| with holes and bad quality pavement. Also, a litter of
| diesel costs 2EUR, taxes for fuel are ~50%.
|
| - Our wages are highly taxed as well, atleast 34% go to
| the social security and to the state each month. If you
| get 800EUR per month and you boss decides to raise you by
| 100EUR, half of the money goes to the state.
|
| - Food and services are highly taxed as well. Most stuff
| pays 23% of taxes for no freaking reason.
|
| - Electricity and other services are also highly taxed as
| well. We pay 23% for electricity in our bill and we also
| have to pay for RTP (state national television...) from
| that bill. Water bill, only 5% of my bill is actually for
| what I've used in water, water is basically undrinkable
| but I pay 95% just for taxes.
|
| - Rent, stocks and other stuff are all taxed to 28%.
| Meaning one month of rent and 28% goes directly to the
| state instead of the landlord. He also has to pay an
| yearly tax to keep his propriety. This tax depends on the
| size and a lot of factors but an apartment may pay 400EUR
| yearly.
|
| - A company pays around 4000 different taxes yearly, and
| the most ridiculous tax is that the government taxes the
| companies for profit they have yet to make. Companies in
| 2022 are already paying 2023 taxes.
|
| And list could go on.
|
| All this taxation for crappy healthcare system (IT'S NOT
| FREE...), crappy roads, crappy public services, crappy
| policing (Portugal it's not a safe country like many
| foreigners agree, try needing the police help and you'll
| see...) and of course, crappy military that is way short
| on NATO demands.
|
| Point being: Taxing is basically theft, no matter the
| country you are in, you will never get the benefits of
| your taxes because corrupt governments, debt, etc...
| aaaaaaaaata wrote:
| > society is probably happier and more stable as a whole.
|
| The pill capital of the world? Who can't decide which
| international alliances to run with?
|
| I was with you until this.
| iamben wrote:
| Than it was 100 years ago?
|
| I am by no means suggesting we have it right, but
| widening the gap between have an have not _and then_
| saying "we have, we're ok - you look after yourself"
| isn't exactly a recipe for stability.
| solarkraft wrote:
| You may feel that way about all taxes. But it's weird that
| crypto currencies are an exception.
| trashtester wrote:
| People tend to have special feelings about the taxes they
| pay (or would pay) themselves.
|
| Personally, I pay mostly income taxes, and I definitely
| feel that taxation should be shifted away form income over
| to property taxes, taxes on polution and taxes on resource
| consumption. (To encourage people to provide services to
| each other, and discourage them from buying physical goods
| that end up in a landfill within a few years.)
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I do some amateur stonks trading and I believe the bank I trade
| at will withhold some taxes for dividends paid; I presume that
| the total monetary value of stocks + cash held on January 1st
| of every year is passed on to the tax office, who will use it
| for capital gains taxes (iirc it's a percentage of 4% of the
| amount, that is, they assume you will, on average, be able to
| get a 4% ROI on investments and tax that return).
|
| This difference between income taxes and possession /
| investment taxes is why pretty much everywhere in the world,
| high ranking and high earning people don't pay as much taxes
| because their earnings will be from stocks and non-wage income.
| I'm sure there's macro-economic reasons behind it, I dunno.
| seppel wrote:
| > I'm from Germany and sold my ETH at the peak some time ago
| with a profit of ~80k. It was a very strange feeling to receive
| that completely untaxed, as everything else is taxed here.
|
| If you buy a car (let's say an oldtimer) and sell it for more
| money than you bought it after one year, it is also tax free.
|
| Real estate is also tax free after two years (or ten years,
| depending on whether you have lived in it).
| davidkuennen wrote:
| That's true. I stand corrected.
| mbeex wrote:
| > Real estate is also tax free after two years
|
| Gold one year (and free of VAT, when buying)
| pavlov wrote:
| Did you declare the 80k profit on your tax return?
|
| I haven't lived in Germany, but in the European countries I
| know, that would qualify as capital gains.
| p2detar wrote:
| How does this work? Do you declare that you have sold crypto at
| all, or you just sell after one year without notifying anyone?
| davidkuennen wrote:
| The second option. I simply didn't notify anyone and so far
| no one asked about it. Maybe because the money came from
| Binance (crypto) they simply didn't bother or something.
| dewey wrote:
| > I simply didn't notify anyone and so far no one asked
| about it.
|
| That's not really how it works though. You are not supposed
| to wait for them to ask you about it, you declare it
| truthfully and otherwise it's tax evasion. Not sure if that
| applies for your case but that's how these kind of taxes
| usually work.
| Aachen wrote:
| Sounds like GP basically walked out of a shop with goods
| in their bag and is now posting online how happily
| surprised they are it was free for a change. Yeah, if you
| don't go to the register then you don't pay. Until the
| day someone finds out.
| samatman wrote:
| Chewing bubblegum isn't a taxable event so I don't tell
| the IRS when I do it. Or giving my friend a drone for his
| birthday, if you prefer something closer to the topic.
|
| If selling ETH after holding it for a year isn't a
| taxable event in Germany, and it sounds very much like it
| isn't, on what basis should this be reported to the tax
| authorities?
| p2detar wrote:
| Actually, my not up-to-date info is that one is pretty
| much always required to declare the winnings of crypto
| sales in their Lohnsteuererklarung. Winnings below 600EUR
| or winnings for crypto assets sold after 1 year of
| possession are tax free.
|
| I have some crypto that I bought last year and some that
| I bought many years ago that don't have any transactions
| records for and now I'm lost at how to properly declare a
| sale.
|
| Honestly, the complexity of this is stopping me from
| doing more crypto trading.
| dathinab wrote:
| > was a very strange feeling to receive that completely
| untaxed,
|
| Well thats the absurdity of the German tax system.
|
| People which do not have much don't pay much taxes (lower
| %cut).
|
| People who are more wealthy then that pay a lot of taxes (max
| %cut).
|
| People who are even more wealthy again much less taxes (still
| max %cut, but docents of ways to circumvent taxes, and "safely"
| launder money e.g. by going through art collections, buildings
| etc.).
| svachalek wrote:
| It's the same in the US.
| xioxox wrote:
| It also has crazy things like taxation on energy produced by
| your solar panels that you use yourself.
| Archelaos wrote:
| The holding period of one year, after which no taxes apply,
| corresponds to the general tax regulation of foreign currency
| balances in Germany. In the past, there has been a debate as to
| whether cryptocurrencies are actually "currencies" in terms of
| this general tax regulation. It seems that this debate has been
| saddled for a while now.
|
| However, the tax exemption also has a disadvantage. Losses cannot
| be offset against other taxes. If your cryptocurrency investment
| is losing value, you should consider selling it before one year
| has passed. In such a case, it is also advisable to consult a tax
| counsellor first, because there might be some pitfalls (a certain
| period between selling and re-investment might be necessary;
| problems might arise when an account is older than a year, though
| the main investment is not; not all losses can be offset against
| all others, etc.).
|
| Another pitfall is that the foreign currency account must not be
| interest-bearing. In such a case the holding period of one year
| is extented to ten years.
| leobg wrote:
| Not sure if this has anything to do with currencies. The rule
| in question applies to any sale of an asset in the private
| domain ("Privatverkauf"). It is the same rule that would apply
| to reselling a house or a car or a washing machine. This is in
| contrast to capital gains, which are being taxed according to
| different rules, and where there is no such 1-year deadline.
| Capital gains are profits from the selling of stock, and also
| interest on money in your bank account. So essentially, the way
| the rules are being applied to cryptocurrency is simply telling
| us that cryptocurrency isn't being recognized as any special
| form of capital, and is instead treated no different than a
| washing machine or a coin collection.
| bombcar wrote:
| Which is _very_ interested because now there 's a "demand"
| for crypto currencies that are fixed to ... SPY say, or VTI.
|
| I wonder how long it would take the Germans to work that
| trick out and come down hard.
|
| I also wonder how tiny a crypto currency could be ...
| leobg wrote:
| Would be interesting if there was crypto fixed to
| individual stocks. But even then, of course, you'd be left
| with the risk of who guarantees the price, and who
| guarantees the liquidity.
| dathinab wrote:
| Note that as far as I know this only applies to private buying
| and selling, if that is the case people which frequently buy
| and sell crypto also have to be careful that their doing is not
| classified as commercial.
|
| E.g. there are similar rules for privately selling art (through
| it's I thing noticeable longer then 1y) and there had been
| cases where people where not careful enough and it was
| classified as commercial activity.
| whiteboardr wrote:
| Isn't this incentivizing "investing" into something much more
| volatile and risky than stocks from which profits always are
| taxed at 25%?
|
| Even if there haven't been taxes on this yet, making crypto "more
| attractive" than stocks sounds like rallying all greater fools
| there are to create even more defaults - which in return will
| hurt society as a whole.
| sunshinerag wrote:
| What happens if the coins were acquired in a different tax
| jurisdiction but disposed in Germany?
| codethief wrote:
| I would assume it doesn't matter where they were bought. If you
| sell crypto while falling under German tax law (due to
| residency etc.), the cited article 23 of the income tax law
| will apply.
| danielfoster wrote:
| I think the more important question is, "Can I deduct losses?"
|
| I would assume the answer is no.
| krembanan wrote:
| Why is it more important? Anyone would take no tax on gains
| over loss deduction any day
| altdataseller wrote:
| No taxes on gains are more important in a bull market. Loss
| deduction is more important in a bear market (which crypto is
| in right now)
| krembanan wrote:
| No, the loss deduction is capped at 100% of your
| investment, no tax benefit can go infinite. And also
| assuming the market over time goes up...
| informalo wrote:
| No words on this in the document unfortunately
| fareesh wrote:
| In India the gains are taxed at 30%. We have a kleptocracy,
| regardless of who runs the government.
| [deleted]
| glouwbug wrote:
| 50% for Canadians, but our NDP wanted to bump it up to 100% so
| as to "tax the rich". Rich implying you got a maxed out TFSA /
| RRSP
| fjfbsufhdvfy wrote:
| This makes no sense. Why should there be less taxes on crypto
| than on stocks and similar things?
| ketzu wrote:
| They are treated like ordinary everyday things, like shoes,
| pants or silverware, not as investments.
|
| edit edit: I have to reinvestiage again... I messed up twice
| already in correcting myself
|
| final edit: Until further notice, I stand by the claim that
| cryptocurrencies are treated as collectibles and other non-
| everyday assets for tax purposes in germany. The original
| statement was, however, a wrong oversimplification.
|
| They are not actually "everyday items" as those would be tax
| free i reselling according to [1] which lists as "everyday
| items" that are tax free for resale: baby clothes, books or
| private cars. They list as non "everyday items" that are taxed
| (to some degree) on gains: Limited sneakers or handbags,
| rarities and collectables, jewlery, precious metals and
| antiquities.
|
| [1] https://taxfix.de/steuertipps/ebay-steuern-zahlen-privat-
| ode...
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Citation needed, I'm 99% confident they're classified as
| investments worldwide now.
| codethief wrote:
| The source is right in the article: Crypto currencies fall
| under SS23 EStG (= Germany's income tax law) which is
| concerned with selling "ordinary everyday things".
| ketzu wrote:
| So, I spent some time now to not just find sources that
| verify my own opinion, but also some that discuss the
| possibile changes.
|
| My previous opinion: Cryptocurrencies are treated similar
| to PS5s and rare sneakers [1]. [2] says:
|
| > Kryptowahrungen sind kein gesetzliches Zahlungsmittel.
| Vielmehr werden sie - zumindest im Ertragsteuerrecht - als
| immaterielle Wirtschaftsguter betrachtet.
|
| Cryptocurrencies are intangible assets. This is confirmed
| by courts in 2021 at least [3] and rephrased by others [4]:
|
| > Virtuelle Wahrungen zahlen rechtlich nicht als
| (Fremd-)Wahrung oder Kapitalanlage, sondern als sonstige
| Wirtschaftsguter.
|
| Austria changed their laws recently [5] classifying
| cryptocurrencies as investments and charging capital gains
| taxes. [6] discusses in decembre 2021 that it is unlikely
| that germany will follow this. This seems to hold as [7]
| from april this year also states:
|
| > Der Handel mit Kryptowahrungen wie Bitcoin ist in
| Deutschland steuerlich dem Handel mit Kunstwerken und
| anderen Wertgegenstanden gleichgestellt. Es gelten die
| gesetzlichen Vorgaben zum privaten Verausserungsgeschaft
| nach Paragraf 23 Absatz 1 des Einkommensteuergesetzes.
|
| I also can't find any changes to classifying crypto as
| investments in germany, so I'd ask you in return: Please
| provide a citation so I can update my knowledge.
|
| [1] https://taxfix.de/steuertipps/ebay-steuern-zahlen-
| privat-ode...
|
| [2] https://www.winheller.com/bankrecht-
| finanzrecht/bitcointradi...
|
| [3] https://www.haufe.de/steuern/rechtsprechung/veraeusseru
| ngsge...
|
| [4] https://www.smartsteuer.de/online/steuerwissen/kryptowa
| ehrun...
|
| [5] https://futurezone.at/digital-life/krypto-steuer-
| gesetz-oest...
|
| [6] https://www.cmshs-bloggt.de/steuerrecht/ertraege-aus-
| kryptow...
|
| [7] https://www.computerbild.de/artikel/cb-Tipps-Internet-
| Bitcoi...
| codethief wrote:
| Your comment should be farther up. Thanks for the
| research!
| [deleted]
| TacticalCoder wrote:
| Depending on the country trading the FOREX can be taxed
| differently than trading stocks (for example not taxed at all).
| If crytocurrencies are considered, somehow, currencies (no
| matter how volatile they are), then it may explain it.
| captainmuon wrote:
| I get why they would do that, to curb speculation, but it seems
| backwards to my intuition.
|
| Just converting money back and forth should not be taxable. And
| if I make an advantageous trade with somebody, and a day later I
| make a disadvantageous trade, it should be a no-op. If you take
| it to the extreme, a market maker or an algorithmic trader makes
| thousands of trades a day, creating liquidity and determining
| prices, and they would be taxed a lot.
|
| My gut feeling is instead you should tax people who use it as an
| investment and their long term gains.
| lern_too_spel wrote:
| You are taxed on net capital gains, not only on trades that
| were for a gain.
| cyphar wrote:
| I don't know if Germany has capital loss discounts, but in
| Australia at least, a capital loss can be used to offset a gain
| (or a future gain). So the fact that you can make a capital
| loss doesn't make taxing profits ridiculous. Forex trading is
| the most analogous thing to crypto trading, and it is taxed in
| a very similar way. And algorithmic traders absolutely are
| required to pay taxes on their profits.
|
| Encouraging people to not hold assets long-term (by making
| short profits tax-free as you suggest) is not a good idea -- it
| encourages speculation and speculative bubbles. Most countries
| treat long-term capital gains more favourably through tax
| discounts for that reason.
| mbeex wrote:
| > a capital loss can be used to offset a gain
|
| Same in Germany. It's a bit more complicated, because you can
| only offset certain asset classes against each other. Most
| prominently, losses in individual shares cannot be reconciled
| by gains in ETFs.
| Hendrikto wrote:
| The number of trades plays no role in how much taxes you have
| to pay. Your net gains do. Thus, winnings do in fact get
| canceled out by losses.
| xmx13 wrote:
| The headline is miss-leading. As a German tax-residency I can
| give some background.
|
| Already in the existing tax law, crypto held for more than a year
| didn't get taxed. If you sold within the first year your personal
| income-tax rate got applied. Which is most likely 45% if you work
| in any tech-related position.
|
| The only exception was if the coins/tokens were used for staking
| the tax-free holding period got extended to 10 years.
|
| This has changed now. All crypto held for more than one year will
| not get taxed.
|
| Technically, it is also not a new tax law. The tax-authorities
| changed their interpretation, how the existing tax-law should be
| applied for crypto-holdings.
| [deleted]
| vmception wrote:
| Are there state level and municipal level income taxes as well?
| lxgr wrote:
| No.
| brazzy wrote:
| Nope. The income taxes are distributed in a fixed ratio, 15%
| goes to the municipality/county, and 42.5% each to the state
| and the federal budget.
| Aachen wrote:
| There is
|
| - TV tax (also if you don't own a TV),
|
| - pension tax (also if you have ETFs of your own),
|
| - care and health insurance are two things separately
| deducted before money makes it into your bank account,
|
| - iirc until 2021 eastern germany taxes to help poorer
| regions,
|
| - church taxes if your parents signed you up for it -- until
| you pay a fee to get unregistered from the church.
|
| This is all separate from income tax. And of course if you
| own a car or want to use public transport that's separate
| still.
|
| Not sure what my landlord pays for waste management, in NL I
| think you pay separately for that, can't quickly find it for
| Germany (German Wikipedia about Kommunalabgaben says
| Abwassergebuhren are indeed a municipality or city circle
| thing, but then two others said you don't pay anything to the
| municipality so I'm not confident I'm reading this German
| article correctly).
| valenterry wrote:
| Let's clarify a bit here.
|
| - There is no "TV tax". There is a fee that most households
| (not people) must pay. It's always the same, no matter what
| your personal marginal tax rate is.
|
| - pension premiums are not a tax. For employees they get
| deducted from your gross income and effectively lower your
| tax - and gains from ETF are not considered.
|
| - For care and health insurance it's the same as for
| pension.
|
| - Yes, there's still a tax for western Germany to help
| eastern Germany
|
| - Yes, there's church tax (if you are already e.g.
| catholic) and yes you have to be a fee to get out of it.
|
| In addition, for employees (and some others) there are:
|
| - Mandatory unemployment premiums
|
| - Additional premiums for care insurance if you are single
|
| - Mandatory accident insurance (paid by the employer
| though)
| WanderPanda wrote:
| Doesn't matter what terms you slam on it, in the end very
| few coins enter your pocket / stay there (I'm looking at
| you, vat) in Germany even if you just have a mediocre
| income.
| Aachen wrote:
| I'm not opposed to them btw, but as a Dutch person I
| found it weird to have this all split out. In NL you get
| AOW no matter if you're the queen or just Joe, you just
| have to be of pensionable age and iirc lived in NL during
| your working life. The public broadcasts are financed
| with tax money but not every household separately gets a
| bill equivalent to a Netflix subscription to be paid for
| a year ahead. If we pay money to zimbabwe then that's
| just regular tax money also, not another separate
| solidarity tax entry on your payslip.
| brazzy wrote:
| > your personal income-tax rate got applied. Which is most
| likely 45% if you work in any tech-related position.
|
| The 45% bracket starts at 277.826 EUR in 2022. That is
| definitely not the kind of money people in a "tech-related
| position" in Germany routinely earn.
| xmx13 wrote:
| Yes, you are correct. My fault.
|
| It is 42% if your income is higher than 57.918 Euro (2021).
| Most tech-related positions will achieve that.
| nosianu wrote:
| The 42% income tax is the _marginal rate_ and it 's the one
| for singles.
|
| Try https://www.bmf-
| steuerrechner.de/ekst/eingabeformekst.xhtml
|
| As an example, for 60,000 Euros (a more typical magnitude)
| your tax rate will be 26.55% if you are single, 16.73% if
| you are married (using splitting).
| blfr wrote:
| So the crypto gains will be taxed at 42% because these
| are presumably on top of your salary.
| chaosite wrote:
| Money is fungible. You could equally say the crypto is
| taxed at a lower rate but then (a larger part) of your
| salary would be taxed at the higher bracket.
| blfr wrote:
| Income streams on the other hand are not nearly that
| fungible. You can either work full time or not at all
| most of the time.
|
| So unless you can turn crypto trading into a full time
| (or more precisely minimum salary) gig, it is a marginal
| activity taxed at the marginal tax rate.
| felixge wrote:
| Yup. But that's marginal tax rate. Average tax rate for e.g.
| 150k EUR income is 37.8%.
|
| See https://www.bmf-
| steuerrechner.de/ekst/eingabeformekst.xhtml
| Ar-Curunir wrote:
| That's surprisingly low, not too different from US tax
| rates!
| luciusdomitius wrote:
| 99% of techies I know who are also financially literate
| enough to be stacking sats are in the top 5% bracket income-
| wise. I know that because I know what sort of offers
| suggested by me they have rejected. If the 5-th percentile of
| tech pay in Germany is around that amount, I can't tell.
| ars wrote:
| The decimal as a thousands separator made me read that as a
| much smaller number, and I was surprised that Germany
| calculated tax rates to 3 decimal digits.
|
| For other confused people, read that as: EUR277,826.
| brazzy wrote:
| Uh, yeah. I copied that straight out of German Wikipedia
| without paying attention to the number formatting.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| That doesn't make any sense to me if I'm understanding it
| correctly. If you buy $100 in bitcoin and sold for $120 then
| you'd have to pay $54 in taxes? That can't be right unless it's
| 45% on the $20 extra that you "profited" ?
| archi42 wrote:
| IANAL (but German): I am only aware that you have to pay
| taxes on gains. I'd be pretty sure (or very much surprised)
| if you had to pay e.g. $50 in taxes after buying $200 of
| crypto, losing half of it and then converting the remaining
| $100 back to cash. So given your example you report $20
| gained on the transaction and pay $10 in taxes.
|
| If you've to pay taxes in German and move serious amounts of
| money (be it stock or crypto): Get a tax accountant and setup
| some tax avoi... optimization. I feel like our system
| essentially demands this.
|
| Oh, I'm lazy and always do tax estimates with 50% instead of
| 45%.
| _whiteCaps_ wrote:
| You've only made an income of $20, so you're only taxed on
| that.
| ramesh31 wrote:
| The title is absurd and should be changed. You will be taxed
| eventually. Germany is just classifying Crypto as any other long
| term capital gains.
| fjfbsufhdvfy wrote:
| So it is not tax-free as the title implies, but fixed 25%?
| littlecranky67 wrote:
| This is not true; Crypto as well as gold are not taxed by
| capital gains _ever_ - they are considered special and treated
| differently on your tax declaration ( "Einnahmen aus
| Verausserungsgeschaften"). It just happens that the same tax
| rate of 25% is applied (if held for less than a tear).
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