[HN Gopher] Master at Arms Badge for Boy Scouts (1925) [pdf]
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Master at Arms Badge for Boy Scouts (1925) [pdf]
Author : 83457
Score : 56 points
Date : 2022-05-11 19:00 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (web.archive.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (web.archive.org)
| kiernanmcgowan wrote:
| I'm just thinking back to my time in scouting and can only
| imagine what it would be like to teach a bunch of 14-16 y/os the
| 1920s equivalent of MMA. Probably about 30min of fun until kids
| just start hitting each other as hard as they can with sticks.
|
| Still sounds more fun than the basket weaving merit badge though.
| EVdotIO wrote:
| Hey, basket weaving and leather work were super fun, and I have
| all cool ones like shotgun, archery and rifle. The most boring
| are probably your citizenship badges. Don't knock it till you
| try it.
| dctoedt wrote:
| Former longtime adult Scout leader here (and Eagle Scout) --
| you're absolutely right about the kids hitting each other
| gcheong wrote:
| I get it but when I took martial arts as a kid it didn't
| devolve into a free-for-all so I guess it would depend on the
| effectiveness of the teacher to maintain order.
| kjanssen wrote:
| Hey man, my first year at summer camp all I did was basket
| weaving, leather working, and pottery. I originally planned to
| do swimming and some other adventurous stuff but was too
| overwhelmed by the swim test to be allowed in the lake and had
| a bit of a meltdown before changing course. I spent the whole
| week chilling in camp or the crafting grove working with my
| hands - it was great.
|
| A few years later I went to a different summer camp as a senior
| patrol leader and finally got my swimming badge along with
| canoeing and rock climbing - that was a great week too. Point
| being: there's value in the "boring" stuff, maybe even more so
| now that I'm established in my career and looking for a little
| more peace these days. Lately I've been strangely interested in
| weaving and am thinking of making a simple loom - maybe this
| goes back to my basket weaving experience when I was 10?
| ddoolin wrote:
| I wasn't at all worried BEFORE that swim test, but afterwards
| I can safely say that was legitimately difficult and pretty
| terrifying. Especially when you realize the lake we did it in
| was full of leeches, which was completely foreign to me at
| the time.
| nytesky wrote:
| Ah summer lake leaches. Stuff of nightmares. My
| understanding was as long as you didn't touch the mucky
| bottom you were in the clear? I swam in New England lakes
| for 20 years and never had one myself but saw several.
|
| Probably why I did the mile swim several times, treading
| water to keep leach free builds endurance.
| themodelplumber wrote:
| Did you do basket weaving? Basket weaving was super chill and
| could make you feel like an adult in some important ways. My
| baskets were a disaster but talking to friends about favorite
| video games while weaving them was like free therapy.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > but talking to friends about favorite video games while
| weaving them was like free therapy.
|
| This is backwards. Your friends aren't cheap knockoffs of a
| therapist. Therapists are people you pay to pretend to be
| your friend.
| germinalphrase wrote:
| This is bassakwards. A therapist isn't supposed to be - let
| alone _pretend_ to be - your friend at all.
| glowingly wrote:
| No parasocial experience really is. However, intent of
| the therapist may not be fully acknowledged by the
| patients.
| jvanderbot wrote:
| I really love this.
|
| I am a firm believer in everyone studying _some_ martial art
| (player's choice).
|
| For the following reasons:
|
| - It teaches an insane amount of respect when two people have to
| hold themselves back to practice
|
| - It teaches self-discipline, mostly in the long-forgotten art of
| keeping yourself from becoming so angry you cannot function with
| form.
|
| - It gives a crazy amount of confidence to know you are at least
| a little bit prepared for bad situations
|
| - It removes a lot of the panic instinct in all kinds of
| intimidating situations, from actual fights, to presenting to a
| review board.
|
| - You quickly learn to operate through pain and discomfort and
| intimidation, even if you are not being actually injured (e.g.,
| not actually sparring).
|
| - Everyone should feel that they are legitimately _their own_
| first line of defense. Even if that defense is to create space
| and get away.
|
| My sport was boxing. I'm a knowledge worker, still.
| leephillips wrote:
| All excellent points. And, in addition, you get many other
| beneficial side effects: improved sense of balance and body
| awareness, situational awareness, realistic appreciation of how
| dangerous fighting is and how easy it is to get hurt, stamina,
| and more.
| VWWHFSfQ wrote:
| Not to mention a little bit of humbling.
|
| Mike Tyson had a very famous quote "Everyone has a plan until
| they get punched in the mouth."
|
| It's good way to learn about your own limitations in the most
| primitive form.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| I could support kids learning boxing if it was limited to body
| blows. With what we are learning about concussion, it seems to
| be more and more understood that blows to the head are never
| OK. Maybe you still need to teach defense against head blows,
| but they should probably not be allowed in competition. Getting
| battered in the head until you cannot stand up or respond
| should be right out.
| leephillips wrote:
| Although, according to the pamphlet, "Every boy who is worthy
| of the name has an inclination to know something of the art
| of boxing."
| throwawayboise wrote:
| I saw that too and it made me smile. I think it can still
| be done. Just cut out the brain damage.
| leephillips wrote:
| Totally agree. And some other sports, especially soccer
| (football outside the US) are also risky for the brain,
| because practice involves repeated heading.
| slowhand09 wrote:
| Boxing outside of competition is almost always done with head
| protection gear. And supervision to prevent violence rather
| than sport.
| amalcon wrote:
| There are martial arts where even in competition, concussion
| is relatively rare. E.g. grappling sports like Brazilian Jiu-
| Jitsu don't usually involve impacts of that intensity, to the
| head or otherwise.
| mastazi wrote:
| The problem is that out of this concern, some martial arts
| disallowed head blows in competition, only to fall out of
| grace due to how "unrealistic" they are in terms of self
| defence.
|
| A large number of people who start practising martial arts,
| does that out of a self defence concern, maybe they have been
| bullied at school etc.
|
| I don't have a solution to this problem (possibly head gear,
| but recent studies seem to indicate that it's not effective
| and might even make things worse)[1].
|
| Of course one possible solution would be to mainly promote
| grappling-based martial arts, like BJJ or amateur wrestling,
| but then in a self defence optic you would still need some
| striking practice, at least in order to learn striking
| defence.
|
| [1] https://www.wired.com/2016/08/olympic-boxers-arent-
| wearing-h...
| jvanderbot wrote:
| One of the biggest misconceptions about boxing training is
| that it involves repeated blows to the head.
|
| Boxing _competitions_ may. But boxing _training_ involves
| form, combos, reflexes and defense drills, and lots of
| conditioning. The most contact is "touch" drills, where you
| may touch your glove to someone with no force behind it.
| These drills are for intermediates to prepare for sparring,
| and I've never seen someone get hit too hard there.
|
| Imagine if karate involved untrained people just kicking
| eachother hard enough to injure themselves / someone. That
| seems silly, yet that's what we imagine with boxing.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| Thanks for clarifying. I don't have experience with boxing
| myself, but yes I was mostly talking about competition
| (i.e. fight to knock-out) and it makes sense that training
| is more about the skills you mention.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| not sure how anyone can recommend boxing now ; all those
| interactions require the right social environment, things can
| go wrong quickly. I reflect on learning about places in the USA
| where they take wrestling seriously, which at the time seemed
| like low-income, blue collar sort of places.. but now I realize
| that the social interaction between men there was rugged, but
| they had norms and ways to regain equilibrium. Meanwhile multi-
| cultural urban school, really a bad idea to have regular and
| repeated situations where students strike others, IMHO.
| moron4hire wrote:
| In principle, I want to agree. In practice, I think the vast
| majority of martial arts schools are nothing more than
| glorified day care facilities with a side of calisthenics.
|
| They don't constructively do anything to actually teach those
| issues of control and discipline to the students. It's not
| enough to give people the skills and then expect them to learn
| from experience the restraint necessary to not use it. They
| don't do anything at all to prepare their students for the
| realities of what it means to use violence against another
| human being. It is an emotionally traumatizing experience.
|
| Nothing like that was ever mentioned in any of the schools
| across multiple styles that I attended. All that was discussed
| was the potential of an "unfair" legal ruling if your attacker
| decided to press battery chargers against you. There was always
| an implication of "be careful when looking for a place to use
| these skills", not "avoid it completely, except on completely
| unavoidable threat to life and limb."
| [deleted]
| nimbius wrote:
| Broke: I want to enter my son into a child fighting ring.
|
| Woke: My boys earning his arms merit badge in the boy scouts.
| motohagiography wrote:
| Grew up playing hockey and just assumed the point of having
| children was to set them against one another for sport. It's as
| though nobody here is from Canada. Did you not have lawn darts,
| potassium nitrate, and licorice cigars? I was a generation or
| so late to get a duelling scar, but grew up about 20miles from
| the site of Camp X (where we invented the CIA), and it seemed
| the american kids were given guns willy nilly where here it was
| just expected you would use the tools at hand to plan a night
| mission take them yourself in the event of an invasion. I'm a
| bit out of the loop as I have only recently become an uncle,
| but presumably a boy today can at least still have a pet
| bobcat?
|
| Between all the sugar cereals and cartoons, it's a wonder the
| people of the US aren't speaking Canadian...
| totierne2 wrote:
| Border poll?
| corrral wrote:
| See also:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canne_de_combat
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartitsu
|
| (related to the first link--it's a martial art Sherlock Holmes is
| familiar with, in the Doyle stories)
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singlestick
|
| The photos at the tops of the the second two links are great. All
| the sailors in the last one, facing off in lines with their
| stick-swords, and the dudes in boater hats posing with their
| sticks like they're LARPers who accidentally put on a costume for
| the wrong setting, at the second link.
| irrational wrote:
| 1925 in Great Britain? So, this was published just a few years
| after the end of World War I. I presume it was written by people
| who actually fought in the war. I wonder how much of this
| reflected the skills they had learned or used as soldiers in that
| war?
| Dlanv wrote:
| I'm not sure they fought with quarterstaffs or rapiers in WW1.
|
| The boxing and jiu jitsu perhaps.
| ch4s3 wrote:
| Ehh... a quarter staff is a good approximation for a lot of
| weapons of convenience. It also teaches gauging distance in a
| way that translate to boxing.
| irrational wrote:
| Apparently swords were used in the war.
|
| http://www.militarian.com/threads/use-of-the-sword-in-
| ww1.70...
|
| Hitting each other with sticks seems like something people at
| war would do ;-)
| dctoedt wrote:
| > _I wonder how much of this reflected the skills they had
| learned or used as soldiers in that war?_
|
| Even today, Marine recruits are trained to fight with pugil
| sticks and padding -- part of the idea is to get them
| accustomed to being hit without losing focus on the mission.
|
| https://rp.marineparents.com/bootcamp/mcmap.asp
| ilamont wrote:
| Some merit badges involve strenuous physical challenges, such as
| hiking (multiple long-distance hikes including a 50-miler). The
| canoeing MB requires learning how to get back on an overturned
| canoe while in deep water, which is bloody hard.
|
| They still have badges for shooting and archery, too.
|
| There are also some badges that were unexpected - plumbing,
| fixing farm equipment, computer game design.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| canoe merit badge here
| graywh wrote:
| there's no 50-mile hike requirement -- all the hikes are to be
| done in a single day and 20 is the maximum length for good
| reason
|
| the sum total of all the required hikes is 70 miles: 5, 10, 10,
| 10, 15, 20
| ilamont wrote:
| You are correct. I was thinking of the "50 miler" badge.
|
| https://www.scouting.org/awards/awards-central/50-miler/
| fishtoaster wrote:
| I remember getting my computer badge- in the late 90s, iirc. I
| had to write up a document in a word processor, create a simple
| spreadsheet, and one or two other things I'm probably
| forgetting. Even then it felt a bit basic and behind the times,
| but I was happy to get an easy badge!
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| Ah yes, the canoeing merit badge. Accomplished by yours truly
| and one other scout because I found an underwater stump in the
| Sewanee river and told him about it. LOL.
| themodelplumber wrote:
| Holy smokes! Reading this over, I'll bet there were more than a
| few injuries among the groups that practiced it.
|
| Imagine sending your kid off for a fun weekend and then watching
| them come home Sunday morning with an acute elbow injury from an
| arm bar...
|
| Scouting was dangerous enough without that stuff. You could get
| lost and even die in any number of unexpected ways. I watched a
| friend take a full swing of a wood axe to the top of his head. It
| didn't make any of us stronger or more interested in the
| outdoors. Plus everybody told us the Eagle Scout looked amazing
| on a resume when you become an adult, but they didn't mention
| that it could have the complete opposite effect depending on
| where you're applying...
|
| Edit: I see the typical pro-danger, pro-learning-through-injury
| realism-posturing replies, but these quick takes are
| inappropriate for beginners, which merit-badge-earning scouts
| definitely are.
| eckmLJE wrote:
| Where did you apply that being an Eagle Scout counted against
| you?
| jimbob45 wrote:
| The problem is that people who become Eagle Scouts tend to be
| successful enough individuals that the jobs they apply to
| don't understand why they would put such a low-grade
| achievement on their resume (compared to the other higher
| achievements they most likely have).
|
| It's like putting that you won an Olympic Gold in gymnastics
| when applying to be CEO of a Fortune 500 company. Yes, it's
| impressive to everyone, but at some point it's not necessary.
|
| I'd say the same applies to high school Honor Societies. If
| you're a member of one, chances are that it's never going to
| professionally benefit you.
| depaya wrote:
| When you look at the direct benefit over the course of your
| lifetime I agree the benefit of things like Eagle Scout of
| Honor Society are minimal, but I think that's missing the
| indirect benefits.
|
| Speaking personally, I firmly believe that being an Eagle
| Scout and HS Honor Society student helped me get into a
| good college.
|
| I frequently discussed being an Eagle Scout (and scouting
| in general, which I was deeply involved) during engineering
| internship interviews and the interview for my first job
| out of college. I do believe this contributed to starting
| off my career strongly.
|
| Now about a decade removed from college I don't bring these
| topics up, but I do still feel the positive contributions
| they had on my trajectory. Not even to mention the benefits
| they had on my soft skills.
| aketchum wrote:
| I understand what you mean, but I think you chose a
| terrible example. I will never be in the Olympics, but if I
| was I would definitely have that on my resume.
| leephillips wrote:
| Hell yes. If I were on the search committee, an olympic
| _gold medal_ would make the candidate very interesting.
| It tells you you're probably dealing with an
| extraordinary individual.
| e9 wrote:
| I disagree. It shows a track record of success throughout
| the life and that you are not just "one time wonder".
| dctoedt wrote:
| I'm an Eagle Scout (note the use of present tense) and I've
| had that on all of my resumes my entire adult life. When I
| got my Eagle, an uncle who was a senior executive at a Very
| Large Bank said that he would always give an Eagle Scout at
| least an interview.
| arnmac wrote:
| Not going to lie. If you submitted a resume for a job I
| was hiring for and you 1. Pass the HR check 2. Had some
| of what I was looking in skills 3. Had Eagle Scout on
| your resume
|
| You are going to get an interview. Might not get the job
| but I would give you a chance.
|
| Just like anything in life the Eagle Scout Rank is not
| the same to everyone. Not everyone put in the same amount
| of effort. They all should have met the same requirements
| but in the end what did you personally learn? Some scouts
| learn and grow in leadership others it was just a thing
| they did.
|
| As an 11 year old scout I was almost immediately
| introduced to conflict resolution, setting and achieving
| goals, leading groups in small tasks. Looking back most
| of the lessons didn't really take root until years later
| when I got a real job. Then I had a group of concepts
| that some of my peers did not and I was able to take the
| early lessons and build on them more quickly.
| totierne2 wrote:
| Quickly?
| wespiser_2018 wrote:
| Me too. It's an interest award I'm proud of, and it takes
| a tiny amount of space.
| themodelplumber wrote:
| When multimedia was a huge thing in the late '90s and early
| '00s, you had a lot of small businesses with tight groups of
| graphic designers, illustrators, developers (full stack web +
| Flash & Director), and animators. Usually one of the
| creatives was in charge of hiring. It was totally obviously
| not a pro, and in many cases they'd make fun of it outright,
| or politely advise to take it off.
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| Well, sure. I was a quiz bowl captain, president of the
| national honor society, and placed yearly at the state
| science fair and I didn't list those on a professional
| resume either.
|
| It takes very little effort to be an Eagle Scout. I
| completed all requirements including the community project
| aside from the board review before I turned 13.
|
| Our scoutmaster suddenly quit on us to attain his MS in
| engineering (his employer surprised him by funding his
| education) right after I attained the final required merit
| badge and none of the adults wanted to take over, so it
| would have required me to go to another troop in the area:
| one was full of bullies, and one with a gigantic asshole of
| a scoutmaster. I decided to go fishing instead.
| dctoedt wrote:
| > _It takes very little effort to be an Eagle Scout._
|
| The actual requirements aren't that demanding for
| reasonably-intelligent kids. As in so many areas of life,
| one's work ethic and persistence matter a lot because of
| the time-in-grade and position-of-responsibility
| requirements for each of the upper ranks, namely Star,
| Life, and Eagle, and those requirements must be completed
| for each rank in series, not in parallel.
|
| > _I completed all requirements including the community
| project aside from the board review before I turned 13._
|
| I was an assistant Scoutmaster, and then the troop
| committee chair, in my son's troop, which we think is the
| largest in the U.S. (some 250 boys and around 50
| registered adult leaders during my time). The troop is
| known as an "Eagle factory," but the Scouts have to put
| in the work. Hardly any of them make it to Eagle before
| about age 15 or 16 because they also do sports and other
| activities and eventually get distracted by the scent of
| gasoline and perfume (as the saying used to be in the
| days of all-male Scouting). Not a few Eagle Scouts,
| including my own son, complete their final requirement, a
| Scoutmaster conference, with just a couple of hours to go
| before they age out at 12:00:00 a.m. at the start of
| their 18th birthdays.
|
| https://www.boyscouttrail.com/boy-scouts/eagle-scouts.asp
| themodelplumber wrote:
| It sounds like the audience for your memoir is being kept
| waiting, but in the meantime, keep pointing out us False
| Scotsmen. :-)
| ilamont wrote:
| > It takes very little effort to be an Eagle Scout. I
| completed all requirements including the community
| project aside from the board review before I turned 13.
|
| It really varies from troop to troop. Ours is old-school,
| by the book, multiple leadership positions required for
| half-year terms. No one got an Eagle who was under 15 and
| the projects are very involved with construction or
| logistics. Tearing down and rebuilding a long wooden
| fence at a women's shelter, constructing display cabinets
| at a nature center, working with a local charity to
| collect hundreds of food boxes. Someone built a real
| footbridge over a stream, which not only required decent
| carpentry skills but also driving rebar through 8x8 posts
| into the stony bank with sledgehammers. I got poison ivy
| twice while clearing brush to make a nature trail and
| rebuild a garden at a local temple.
|
| These projects are often the first time many youths have
| ever picked up a power tool or project managed anything.
|
| The bureaucracy associated with the service project and
| application was stunning.
| freedomben wrote:
| Likewise. I was 15 when I finished and it was a
| monumental amount of work. The troop you're in matters a
| great deal.
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| Probably. I think I lucked out because my service project
| was clearing and installing seating and paths in a new,
| small park from land donated by a family who inherited it
| and didn't want to deal with the taxes because there were
| technically about 30 owners.
| omegaham wrote:
| This was also our troop. You couldn't make Life Scout
| before you were 15 thanks to the leadership requirements,
| and that meant that the earliest you could get Eagle was
| sometime at age 16. The vast majority of them got it
| _just_ before they turned 18. The projects were intended
| to be ambitious and demanded that the Scout do the bulk
| of the planning and dealing with the bureaucracy.
|
| Imagine my surprise when our troop went to SeaBase and
| ran into a bunch of other troops where everyone got Eagle
| at age 14.
| ilamont wrote:
| That's the way it is for our troop. Most of the kids
| aren't able to get Eagle before they are HS juniors and
| are 16 or 17. A few just made it in before turning 18.
|
| The bureaucracy is a mistake. I know why Scouting does it
| - BSA organizational culture, abuses in the past, trying
| to apply standards across local troops - but a lot of it
| falls on troop volunteers to and parents to nag scouts to
| death and fix the inevitable problems that crop up. It's
| not right.
| wespiser_2018 wrote:
| that's me and my friend: we both made eagle scout at 17,
| and the ceremony for me was after I turned 18.
|
| My first troop was very by the book, and the last eagle
| scout in the troop was the scoutmasters son, maybe 5
| years before I joined. That troop disbanded, and I
| finished my award at another troop were it was a bit
| easier, but still a lot of work.
|
| For me, earning Eagle scout required me to stay active in
| scouting through age 17, and do one (or maybe 2) extra
| weeks at summer camp to earn enough merit badges. Once I
| was older (16/17) and in my second troop, I already had
| the leadership requirements, so I just went to meetings
| and help out with the kids that were much younger than me
| while I planned my project.
| jghn wrote:
| I am an Eagle Scout. I would never put it on my resume,
| and I roll my eyes when I see a resume with it on there.
| Ignoring the always present "it was harder back then"
| (fwiw, in my day average ages started to plunge from
| 15/16/17 to 13/14/15), my point still stands.
|
| I can see it being okay as a first job out of college or
| similar. I got my Eagle at 17, and I could imagine
| someone with no real work experience thinking that's
| something to help pad the books. But once one hits 30,
| 40, 50, beyond there's no reason having done an Eagle
| project should be cited as a major accomplishment in
| their life. At least not from the perspective of seeking
| employment. I'm 100% in favor of people feeling proud
| about what they did, the whole point of that project was
| to have done right by people.
| acrobatsunfish wrote:
| Life for life?
| arnmac wrote:
| This made me laugh. Many a scout has been 1 merit badge
| away.
| colechristensen wrote:
| It's not a quick take, it's just modern infantilization of
| children to the point that many people in their 20s have
| difficulty with basics.
|
| Everyone starts as a beginner and age doesn't change that,
| except maybe by making things harder as you get older.
|
| Do you object to the pacing or the starting age or are you
| imagining that the people teaching this were reckless?
| throwawayboise wrote:
| At the time this was written, boys learning to face danger,
| fight, and possibly getting injured was considered normal.
| troon-lover wrote:
| prometheus76 wrote:
| Part of learning to defend oneself is getting injured along the
| way. It's part of the learning process. You can't learn to
| fight by reading a book about it. If you start to participate
| and learn through that participation, sometimes your efforts
| (or someone else's) will lead to injury.
| themodelplumber wrote:
| > You can't learn to fight by reading a book about it
|
| Just to say that this is untrue, as long as your opponent has
| not read any books or had any training. A lot of scouts or
| just bullied kids who visit the library will tell you that.
| [deleted]
| UberFly wrote:
| Sheesh. Some of the best things I ever did involved the risk of
| getting hurt. And yes, I guess I could see someone very left-
| leaning hating on an Eagle Scout but it would still probably be
| rare thankfully.
| themodelplumber wrote:
| Oh, you should see a right-leaning person screaming
| obscenities at a boy scout, if you're open to new
| perspectives.
|
| You know they have been teaching Environmental Science since
| at least the '80s? I almost saw an adult fight break out
| because of that one.
|
| Scouts always had randos protesting their indoctrination.
| Zone of the political spectrum depended on the contextual hot
| take.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| What's the liberal complaint about scouting?
| convolvatron wrote:
| i think it was the 90s or early aughts, there was a lot of
| media-heavy and forth about gay scoutmasters. and I guess
| gay scouts too.
| [deleted]
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| From one side its overt religious bias. From the other it's
| being too inclusive by admitting girls.
| themodelplumber wrote:
| For the big ones, read about the history of scouting,
| including when BSP visited Portland OR. You'll understand
| right away.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| what's BSP?
| atdrummond wrote:
| I assume this is a malformed initialism for Baden-Powell,
| scouting's founder.
| mikestew wrote:
| That is the worst homework assignment ever: read the
| complete history of Boy Scouts, including when an
| unexpanded not-common acronym visited Portland.
|
| Was a link asking too much?
| atdrummond wrote:
| https://scoutingmagazine.org/issues/0811/d-wwas.html I
| assume this is a reference to the political fracas that
| Baden-Powell encountered with a group of Socialists in
| Portland.
| gcheong wrote:
| There are certainly complaints to be made about the BSA
| policies as an organization but I wouldn't hold that
| against someone who went through scouting.
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(page generated 2022-05-11 23:00 UTC)