[HN Gopher] The Radioactive Boy Scout (2009)
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The Radioactive Boy Scout (2009)
Author : SQL2219
Score : 50 points
Date : 2022-05-09 18:54 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (talesfromthenuclearage.wordpress.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (talesfromthenuclearage.wordpress.com)
| macksd wrote:
| This is a very interesting story, but this article is pretty
| light on a lot of the details of his life. He got into a lot of
| mischief throughout his life and unfortunately died a few years
| ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hahn. It's a real shame,
| because he was obviously bright and highly motivated and I feel
| like he was just never able to really put all that potential into
| action.
|
| My favorite part of the story is that he was arrested for
| stealing smoke detectors from his apartment building trying to
| collect radioactive material. One of my first jobs was shipping /
| receiving for an electronics manufacturer, and smoke / gas
| detectors were the lion's share of our business. I was told I
| always had to classify the products as "components for a nuclear
| reactor" on international shipping manifests, which I thought was
| silly. Until I read this story...
| sharkweek wrote:
| If only you had met Nathan Fielder when he was attempting to
| rebrand smoke detectors as musical instruments to avoid these
| customs declarations.
|
| (If you haven't watched the show Nathan For You, I can't
| recommend it enough).
| ortusdux wrote:
| I've actually called the US Dept of Commerce to get help
| figuring out which Harmonized System code to use for some
| shipments. I managed to stump them and they had to give me a
| callback, but throughout they were extremely helpful.
| mjevans wrote:
| This is also the reason modern smoke detectors are all annoying
| BS. We can't have nice things because this one guy went through
| a whole lot of trouble to do something silly.
|
| Now they're all oversensitive steam sensing BS models. I'd
| rather have freaking IR cameras looking for too much heat
| (outside of kitchens).
| Syonyk wrote:
| The "nuclear" ones are ionization type, which have the useful
| quality of being cheap. Otherwise, they're almost, but not
| entirely, worthless as far as being a smoke detector goes.
|
| The other type is the photoelectric type, which is generally
| more expensive, but rather radically more likely to alert for
| the sort of fires that kill people.
|
| Ionization types are really good at detecting the emissions
| from flames. They're disturbingly bad at detecting actual
| smoke - so the name "smoke detector" for them is a bit
| misleading, IMO. If you've got a grease fire or something
| going with basically no smoke, an ionization type will detect
| this in a hurry, and they're also rather prone to false
| positives as noticed by anyone with one of them near a
| kitchen.
|
| The photoelectric types aren't so good at detecting flames,
| but are quite good at detecting smoke in the air. In some
| tests, they alert 30-40 _minutes_ before an ionization type
| notices a problem.
|
| But the problem comes when you start looking at the type of
| fires that actually kill people. The bulk of fire deaths are
| from overnight fires, in which something is smoldering (and
| smoking...) for half an hour or longer before the heat gets
| to the point that the piece of (usually furniture) ignites.
| The photoelectric type will alert to this smoke. The
| ionization type waits until the [whatever] has actually
| caught fire to bother doing anything - which is far less
| useful, because by the time the couch has caught fire, the
| room and the rest of the house aren't far behind. Some
| realistic tests have shown that there's literally half an
| hour or more of alert from the photoelectric type, down to "A
| minute or two" for the ionization type.
|
| Skip Walker has done a number of presentations, and some of
| his work can be found here:
|
| http://www.propertyevaluation.net/Photoelectric%20vs%20Ioniz.
| ..
|
| > _In tests, ionization alarms will typically respond about
| 30 to 90 seconds faster to "fast-flame" fires than
| photoelectric smoke alarms. However, in smoldering fires
| ionization alarms respond an average of 15 to 50 minutes
| slower than photoelectric alarms. Several studies indicate
| that they will outright fail to activate up to 20-25% of the
| time. The vast majority of residential fire fatalities are
| due to smoke inhalation, not from the actual flames and
| almost two-thirds of fire fatalities occur at night while we
| sleep._
|
| > _In 2007, UL published the "Smoke Characterization Study".
| This study tested both types of smoke alarms using current UL
| testing standards and materials; they also tested the alarms
| using UL test criteria integrating a variety of synthetic
| materials and current tests such as smoldering toast. The
| results are frightening. Ionization alarms failed the UL 217
| test 20% of the time using the current standard test
| materials. This is the test that the alarms must pass 100% of
| the time to be offered for sale and installed in US homes.
| When tested using synthetic materials, ionization alarms DID
| NOT TRIGGER (DNT) in 7 out of 8 synthetic test scenarios. In
| the one test where the ionization alarm did trigger, it
| activated at a level exceeding maximum allowed under the UL
| standard and nearly 43 minutes after the photoelectric alarm
| in the same test._
|
| He also has a presentation up that just drills down, over and
| over, into data, studies, etc. The results are quite clear:
| in the sort of fires that actually kill people, photoelectric
| smoke detectors _radically_ outperform ionization types - and
| this is found in study after study that looks at "fires vs
| fire deaths vs smoke detector types" as well.
|
| https://structuretech1.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Ion-
| vs...
|
| You can spider off those if you want, but you _really_ should
| put at least a few photoelectric smoke detectors in your
| house.
|
| Don't bother with the combo detectors. They're either an "or"
| gate, which gives you the worst of both worlds, or an "and"
| gate, at which point the photoelectric sensor can be
| screaming its head off about the smoke, but the alarm won't
| sound until the ionization type detects flame products.
|
| > _I 'd rather have freaking IR cameras looking for too much
| heat (outside of kitchens)._
|
| They've been tested against smoke detectors and are worse
| than even ionization types for detecting early fires.
| hermitdev wrote:
| The false alarms you get from the heat detectors are
| exceedingly annoying to. My last apartment, I had heat
| detectors as well as carbon monoxide detectors. I could not
| use the oven in my kitchen without setting off the heat
| detector in the hallway. Literally open the door after a
| preheat, and the damn thing goes off. Nothing burning that
| should be burning (it was a gas oven after all). Lots of
| open doors and windows (always fun in winter Chicagoland)
| and waving of towels at the detector...
|
| I lived in that apartment for over 10 years... Never once
| had a "real" fire, but easily had hundreds of alarms. Very,
| very low signal to noise ratio...
| dymk wrote:
| Highly motivated yes, bright, probably not. He never actually
| managed to build anything useful. He did manage to designate
| his backyard a superfund site though. And managed to get
| arrested for trying to do it again, this time in an apartment
| building full of people.
|
| If you read through the history of his life, it looks much less
| like a smart, resourceful person trying to do science being
| kept down by The Man. It's more like untreated mental illness
| putting others in danger, and resulting in his premature death.
| adolph wrote:
| "smart, resourceful person" | "untreated mental illness"
|
| "smart, resourceful person" + "untreated mental illness"
| dymk wrote:
| Yeah, I'm saying he was not smart, nor was he resourceful.
| He was certainly mentally ill.
|
| He didn't build a reactor. He didn't build an x-ray
| machine. No experiments took place. There was no scientific
| method employed. He took apart a bunch of smoke detectors.
| He irradiated his mother's back yard, and then he tried to
| do it again in an apartment building.
|
| He wasn't a misunderstood savant.
|
| The guy did nothing that should be emulated, lauded, or
| praised. He's a cautionary tale of untreated mental
| illness.
| water-your-self wrote:
| Smart or not he had a lot of domain knowledge and had the
| ambition to learn more. Its vastly disappointing that
| none of the authorities or adults in his life steered him
| towards work in the nuclear field
| dymk wrote:
| > he had a lot of domain knowledge
|
| It doesn't take domain knowledge to stockpile smoke
| detectors. He learned what he did from high school
| chemistry textbooks.
|
| > had the ambition to learn more
|
| Apparently not, as evidenced by him not having
| successfully built anything nor pursued any higher
| education.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| > none of the authorities or adults in his life steered
| him towards work in the nuclear field
|
| How do you know they didn't?
| giantg2 wrote:
| It's been more than a decade since I read the book. If I
| remember correctly, the parents were pretty
| absent/clueless and uninvolved. It's possible someone
| tried to steer him (science teacher working with the
| tanning lotion). But it doesn't seem the the parents
| would have been likely to do it based on his side of the
| story.
| mynameishere wrote:
| I don't care how much booze and drugs and radium-powered
| neutron guns you die from, if the coroner finds Benadryl in
| your blood, it's going in the report.
| rob74 wrote:
| I couldn't help but notice that he looks a bit... unhealthy on
| the 2007 mugshot
| (https://talesfromthenuclearage.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/d...)
| - is that just a bad case of acne (unusual at 31), or is that
| somehow connected to exposure to radiation?
|
| Ah, ok, Wikipedia to the rescue:
|
| > _In his mug shot, his face was covered with sores, which
| investigators believed could have been from exposure to
| radioactive materials, psoriasis, or possible drug use._
| [deleted]
| mgkimsal wrote:
| Was just telling some friends about this story the other day. He
| want to the the same high school as I did, although he was a few
| years after me; I think he may have had a class with one of my
| siblings.
| dang wrote:
| The classic article is https://harpers.org/archive/1998/11/the-
| radioactive-boy-scou..., from 1998. Did this one just lift the
| title for a different piece on the same topic?
|
| Related:
|
| _The Radioactive Boy Scout (1998)_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23538908 - June 2020 (1
| comment)
|
| _The Radioactive Boy Scout_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18396332 - Nov 2018 (1
| comment)
|
| _The Radioactive Boy Scout (1999)_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15466860 - Oct 2017 (34
| comments)
|
| _"Radioactive Boy Scout" who tried to build a homemade nuclear
| reactor dead at 39_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12957768 - Nov 2016 (67
| comments)
|
| _The Radioactive Boy Scout: When a teenager attempts to build a
| breeder reactor_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9867739 -
| July 2015 (5 comments)
|
| _The Radioactive Boy Scout (1998)_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6310748 - Sept 2013 (1
| comment)
|
| _The radioactive boy scout: the teenager who attempted to build
| a breeder reactor_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=611583
| - May 2009 (18 comments)
|
| Also related, a little less directly:
|
| _Middle school student achieved nuclear fusion in his family
| playroom_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24705563 - Oct
| 2020 (82 comments)
|
| _Boy, 12, said to have created nuclear reaction in playroom lab_
| - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19472076 - March 2019 (14
| comments)
|
| _12-Year-Old Claims to Have Achieved Nuclear Fusion at Home
| (2018)_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19229433 - Feb
| 2019 (92 comments)
|
| _"I built a fusion reactor in my bedroom - AMA"_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12118525 - July 2016 (127
| comments)
|
| _The Fusioneers, who build nuclear reactors in their back yards_
| - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11777553 - May 2016 (54
| comments)
|
| _Nobody builds nuclear reactors for fun anymore_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6867072 - Dec 2013 (102
| comments)
|
| _The Nuclear Scientist Who Skipped College_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4762449 - Nov 2012 (50
| comments)
| mikepurvis wrote:
| The author of the Harper's piece also expanded it into a 2004
| book:
|
| https://www.amazon.com/Radioactive-Boy-Scout-Backyard-Nuclea...
| watersb wrote:
| "The Scoutmaster's wife noted that a typical kid working on this
| badge goes to a hospital and asks about x-rays. David decided to
| build a Breeder Reactor."
|
| .!!.
|
| I'm currently reading through the 1950s "Tom Swift Jr."
| stories... so maybe that's why I expected this HN post to be a
| great work of fiction. Like Charles Stross' "De-chlorinating the
| Moderator" http://www.antipope.org/charlie/fiction/moderator.html
|
| The real world can be more delightful. And terrifying.
| Trouble_007 wrote:
| FYI:
|
| David Charles Hahn (October 30, 1976 - September 27, 2016),
|
| sometimes called the "Radioactive Boy Scout" or the "Nuclear Boy
| Scout" : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hahn
|
| The Nuclear Boy Scout - A Short Documentary :
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WyFktKBGfIA
|
| The Nuclear Boy Scout (TV Short 2003) - IMDb :
| https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0378468/
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| > The Scoutmaster's wife noted that a typical kid working on this
| badge goes to a hospital and asks about x-rays. David decided to
| build a Breeder Reactor. This was perfectly logical to someone
| with a rather naive social awareness, accompanied by a passion
| for collecting all the Periodic Table Elements.
|
| Can someone explain the logical connection between "naive social
| awareness" and "choosing to go way above and beyond for this
| merit badge"?
|
| As someone with Asperger syndrome (very mild) and the parent of a
| kid with it (more so), I may be overly sensitive to stereotyping
| on the topic. So in that excerpt above, what I hear is a neuro-
| typical adult dismissing the kid's amazing accomplishment here,
| just because he's socially awkward.
|
| I'm sure she's actually a lovely person, so I'm hoping someone
| can give me a better explanation.
| peterburkimsher wrote:
| The Gervais principle of management hierarchy:
|
| Sociopaths (friends with everyone)
|
| Management (clueless)
|
| Losers (actually do the homework)
|
| I'm trying to be the biggest loser and outsmart the system, but
| thank God, I failed. The sociopaths want to copy the homework.
| Whatever good ideas you and your kid have, please type them and
| share! There's no intellectual property here. We're not afraid
| to ask "What if?"
|
| Welcome to the community of the Internet, we love you.
| otomoaoe wrote:
| It sounds like he was hyper-focused to the detriment of his
| health and others around him at several steps in the story
| (lying to nuclear scientists, performing dangerous experiments
| in a residential area, it goes on). I agree with you that he
| did amazing things, but those things are tainted by his
| disregard for others. I think that's what they mean by social
| naivete.
| zitterbewegung wrote:
| From my limited background in psychology what really separates
| him is the drive to execute on his goals and not the social
| awkwardness. But, creating the device would obviously have a
| large amount of time invested which would be the same for
| whoever would build the device .
| ncmncm wrote:
| This story makes me feel ill every time it surfaces.
| lifefeed wrote:
| This story always reminds me of the Nth Country Experiment, from
| 1964, where the United States wondered how long it would take a
| country to design a nuclear weapon, starting from no particular
| expertise or classified access. One answer, they learned, was
| three new physics PhDs and two and half years. I don't know if
| that's when the US started focusing on enriched uranium, but that
| is really the only limiting factor in the whole deal.
| [deleted]
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