[HN Gopher] Illinois college, hit by ransomware attack, to shut ...
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       Illinois college, hit by ransomware attack, to shut down
        
       Author : danso
       Score  : 165 points
       Date   : 2022-05-09 15:59 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.nbcnews.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.nbcnews.com)
        
       | GreedCtrl wrote:
       | The college in question is Lincoln College.
       | 
       | This is somewhat confusing because there is a college called
       | Illinois College. Because of this news, they are accepting
       | transfers from Lincoln for all students in good academic
       | standing: https://www.ic.edu/news/04-4-2022/illinois-college-
       | extends-b...
        
       | protomyth wrote:
       | We were looking at "cyber insurance" for our college and found
       | out that we would be disqualified because every network connected
       | device (even those on isolated networks) needs to have 2FA. Well,
       | we have a network connected CNC machine at it has no provision
       | for it. Another institution has the same machine and was denied.
       | They tried every a lot of gyrations but got nowhere. Even a
       | previous security audit would not help.
       | 
       | I get the feeling this is one of those rules setup to make sure
       | they don't deal with small institutions with small IT departments
       | or they really don't know how much the cost of insurance to them
       | will be.
        
         | gowld wrote:
         | That rule would apply to larger IT depts too, though, right?
        
           | protomyth wrote:
           | I would imagine they are in a better position to negotiate
           | and have the resources to make strict rules the insurance
           | company would like.
        
       | duped wrote:
       | It sounds like they weren't in a great financial situation to
       | begin with. Definitely a tragedy to have everything down for
       | three months and to find out afterwards that you're not going to
       | have enough money to stick around next year.
       | 
       | I wonder what the ransom was and if they paid it.
       | 
       | Side note: Planet Money had an interesting segment on insurance
       | claims for things like cyber attacks last week, it's worth giving
       | a listen.
        
         | toomuchtodo wrote:
         | Cyber insurance premiums are skyrocketing YoY due to ransomware
         | attacks based on conversations with clients. Overall, it's
         | still a challenge to demonstrate the value of defending against
         | them (reducing attack surface, real backups and data recovery
         | plans, phishing exercises to see who is click happy and what
         | their privileges have access to, etc) to folks who don't
         | understand the risk this poses.
         | 
         | Like driving without insurance, it works until it doesn't.
        
           | duped wrote:
           | The point they made was some insurance companies consider
           | state sponsored cyber attacks as "acts of war" under their
           | terms and not covered in their policies. It was part of a
           | larger segment on how insurers do or don't insure
           | catastrophic events, like pandemics or war.
        
           | jabroni_salad wrote:
           | Cyber providers are becoming much more savvy and are starting
           | to decide that self-service 'yeah we are totally doing this'
           | self-assessment checklists aren't sufficient. I have around
           | 20 financial institutions on my client list and 11 of them
           | have had their first hands-on penetration test in the past
           | year.
           | 
           | A year ago they would just send a laptop with Nessus on it
           | and then sign off on a risk sheet full of the usual
           | llmnr/nebios/kerberoast/smb1 vulns because they didn't know
           | what it meant. Now they will pop your domain administrator
           | and refuse your renewal or jack your rates until you get a
           | followup pentest demonstrating that those vulns have been
           | resolved.
        
             | toomuchtodo wrote:
             | Seeing the same at fintechs. "We're compliant." "Prove it."
        
               | anonymousDan wrote:
               | Good!
        
       | amelius wrote:
       | Another attack made possible by cryptocurrencies.
        
       | bachmeier wrote:
       | "Lincoln College was a victim of a cyberattack in December 2021
       | that thwarted admissions activities and hindered access to all
       | institutional data, creating an unclear picture of Fall 2022
       | enrollment projections," the school wrote in its announcement.
       | "All systems required for recruitment, retention, and fundraising
       | efforts were inoperable."
       | 
       | How is this possible? There's literally not a second copy of the
       | data anywhere? The people working in the admissions office didn't
       | have a printout and they had absolutely no idea what the numbers
       | looked like? It's one thing to have all the videos for online
       | classes get locked up in a ransomware attack, but this simply
       | cannot be true.
        
       | hsnewman wrote:
       | The headline is clickbate. According to the article it says it
       | closed due to COVID and the attack.
        
         | hunter2_ wrote:
         | Yes, but at the same time, an experienced consumer of headlines
         | should parse this syntax as "Illinois college to shut down.
         | Illinois college hit by ransomeware attack, as well." (i.e.,
         | despite weaving the two things together, causation isn't
         | actually claimed).
         | 
         | I don't like it, but it's been the nature of the headline game
         | since long before clicks.
        
       | pledess wrote:
       | My thoughts immediately went to a hypothetical ethical question.
       | Suppose that a ransomware threat actor saw the NBC story, felt
       | bad that this happened to Lincoln, and offered to make
       | (anonymously) the "transformational donation" mentioned in the
       | story, while making clear that the source of funds was ransom
       | received from other victims. Should Lincoln accept the money?
       | 
       | (In other words, there's a yin and yang situation in which the
       | ransomware threat actor happens to have a philanthropic arm.)
        
         | Invictus0 wrote:
         | Rephrased more generally, is it ethical to accept donations
         | arising from criminal enterprises?
         | 
         | I think most people would say that the answer is no. This topic
         | has been widely discussed on HN with regards to the MIT Media
         | lab accepting money from Epstein.
        
       | zamadatix wrote:
       | The posting on the colleges website paints a much bleaker
       | picture. The ransomware attack certainly didn't help but the
       | school was already near shutting down due to huge drops in
       | enrollment from covid and expenses related to implementing remote
       | learning. It's not like they were just doing fine and didn't
       | think to spend money on IT resulting in an untimely demise they
       | were on the way out and also happened to get hit by ransomware
       | during that. I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't doing
       | particularly well prior to either of those issues even.
       | 
       | I wouldn't be surprised if there were multiple other things they
       | should have been doing to lower operational risk but couldn't
       | realistically do given their situation.
        
         | solveit wrote:
         | Of course. If the college was otherwise doing well, they would
         | be able to get a loan to smooth over a rough patch.
        
           | daniel-cussen wrote:
           | Don't assume loans are that simple. Everyone assumes they're
           | that simple. They're deadly, it's the compound interest, the
           | intrinsically runaway loan, the situation Hell is based on.
           | It leads to gambling and prostitution for example. All sins.
        
             | feoren wrote:
             | > It leads to gambling and prostitution for example.
             | 
             | That took a wild turn. Does allowing ice fishing on Lake
             | Michigan also lead to prostitution?
        
               | daniel-cussen wrote:
               | Does ice fishing as you describe involve debt?
        
       | aphexairlines wrote:
       | Whoever sold the vulnerable software should be liable for
       | damages.
        
         | pc86 wrote:
         | How about whoever _wrote_ it?
        
       | chadash wrote:
       | I am sympathetic to companies that keep backups of their data,
       | but don't have comprehensive plans to _restore_ that data after
       | an attack. A company that plans properly might be up-and-running
       | within a day or two, but getting to that point isn 't easy.
       | 
       | But getting to the point of needing to shut down entirely because
       | of a ransomware attack seems like negligence. If your data is
       | that vital to you, you really ought to have _some_ backup of it.
        
         | spankalee wrote:
         | They got back up and running, but don't have enough enrollment
         | to keep the doors open. The ransomware attack is just part of
         | the reason - in addition to COVID - but it might have been a
         | major factor in them not getting enrollment to the point where
         | they could survive.
        
       | taraskuzyk wrote:
       | One hell of a way to avoid your CS exam.
        
       | pm90 wrote:
       | would be so easy for some random billionaire to cut them a check
        
         | blagie wrote:
         | It wouldn't be easy. It seems like they were providing a sub-
         | par education at >$30k per year.
         | 
         | https://lincolncollege.edu/file/471/21-22%20Undergraduate%20...
         | 
         | Math runs out at calculus. No computer science. Very few
         | programs which would translate to real careers.
         | 
         | Reforming a school like this is much more than cutting a check.
         | It's a worthwhile project, but it's a major undertaking.
        
         | UnpossibleJim wrote:
         | Would be so easy for the US government to turn community
         | colleges into 4 year colleges and make them part of them part
         | of the basic curriculum, should students want to continue their
         | education for free, while allowing private universities to
         | remain just like private primary schools. Our population
         | shouldn't have to rely on the whims of billionaires while our
         | government wastes billions on no-bid contracts, ridiculous
         | military spending and domestic spying programs... I apologize
         | for my rant =)
        
           | pm90 wrote:
           | No that totally makes sense. It would be a small fraction of
           | the defense budget. And having an educated and informed
           | populace is just what we need to remain competitive globally.
        
       | Wowfunhappy wrote:
       | How did we end up at a point where we are this reliant on the
       | internet?
       | 
       | Any truly critical system should not be connected to the public
       | internet. Computers with internet connections are for sending
       | email and reading Wikipedia. Any data critical to your
       | organization should be accessed from separate terminals connected
       | via LAN. No VPN, that's still the internet.
       | 
       | Do that, and unless you're the CIA you will never be hacked. You
       | can even run Windows XP if you feel like it.
       | 
       | The internet is the root of the problem, and it's time we start
       | realizing that some things shouldn't be online.
        
         | jacobr1 wrote:
         | The problem is that much (not all) the business important data
         | is involved the public internet. Take this school for example -
         | prospective students applied online. One could imagine sneaker-
         | netting the application data to an airgapped network, but that
         | introduces its own costs and risks.
         | 
         | Email (or other messages systems like slack) are one of primary
         | tools of business, facilitating communication within an
         | organization. You can't do that well with an air-gapped
         | network, except to make that network really leaky.
        
           | Wowfunhappy wrote:
           | I totally get it, but the internet hasn't been around that
           | long. How did we handle this 30 years ago?
           | 
           | I imagine students applied via snail mail, and then someone
           | manually entered the information into a database. There's no
           | reason to go back to paper applications, and that database
           | should absolutely be digital--but I think we could do a lot
           | more manual entry.
        
         | elevation wrote:
         | Full internet isolation is an underrated solution for critical
         | systems. And it doesn't mean the students or staff themselves
         | can't use the internet via mobile devices or school-issued
         | netbooks -- only that the critical data systems themselves
         | aren't accessible online.
         | 
         | Another helper technology that's underused is data diodes,
         | which prevent two-way connections but allow one-directional
         | data flows, such as security updates for a lab full of
         | workstations, or in the other direction, allowing internet
         | monitoring of a source-of-truth or sensor while preventing
         | internet tampering.
         | 
         | Unfortunately, distributed orgs can't as easily benefit from
         | air gaps and data diodes, but they're effective tools when your
         | physical boundaries align with your security boundaries such as
         | in a lab or around a campus.
        
         | zamadatix wrote:
         | Having worked in healthcare up until very recently I can assure
         | you a bunch of unpatched XP machines connected via LAN will
         | still be rampantantly infected regardless if they have access
         | to the internet. Wannacry was just absolutely rampant on these
         | systems for years. At the same time the publicly inbound
         | accessible servers in the DMZ never had an issue because we
         | were actually able to manage the security controls on those.
         | 
         | The LAN is a much more used attack vector than the internet. It
         | has nothing to do with some hacker sitting there banging at
         | your door users just share files and reuse devices as part of
         | their day to day effort. The instant someone in the college
         | brings in a compromised USB, intentionally or unintentionally,
         | all of the isolation in the world from the internet doesn't
         | save you from ransomware.
        
           | Wowfunhappy wrote:
           | Why did those machines have uncovered USB ports?
        
             | zamadatix wrote:
             | Which machines?
             | 
             | The medical device? They didn't, WannaCry would spread over
             | the LAN to the systems silently then when the vendor came
             | to do maintenance on a system or an upgrade they would
             | become a transport vector between sites.
             | 
             | Generic? Because limiting college computers to only be able
             | to work on what you can type into each one you visit makes
             | them relatively useless and creates a much larger burden
             | than managing security.
        
       | vmception wrote:
       | A tragedy
       | 
       | That needs to happen
       | 
       | The humanizing done about how its was something like an HBCU and
       | weathered other calamities is sad, should also be a wakeup call
       | to other organizations
        
         | rediguanayum wrote:
         | I don't know why this was down voted, but I agree, that this
         | tragic shutdown makes it clear that Ransomeware affects the
         | real world.
        
           | r00fus wrote:
           | Ransomware won't affect legislation until really influential
           | players get hacked ruthlessly. And even then they'd pay to
           | ensure others don't know they've been hacked.
           | 
           | The "we need more victims to change everyone's minds" is a
           | strawman.
        
           | 0des wrote:
           | ransomware is a necessary evil
        
       | Loughla wrote:
       | Hey, I actually have experience with that school! I did some
       | consulting with them about a decade ago.
       | 
       | The ransomware attack certainly didn't help, but it is _wildly_
       | misleading to say, or even imply that caused them to shut down.
       | 
       | The actual reasons:
       | 
       | (a) They filled a niche that didn't need to be filled anymore.
       | They used to absorb students from other local universities (ISU,
       | UIS, UIUC). Those schools have realized the value of helping
       | their own students be successful, leading to declining
       | enrollment.
       | 
       | (b) They were previously a community college, and began awarding
       | bachelor's degrees. They were then fighting in a weight class way
       | above what they were used to, and never really got their feet
       | under them (to use some mixed metaphors).
       | 
       | (c) They were expensive for the quality. They gave a good
       | education, but had zero connections to business and industry to
       | justify the cost.
       | 
       | (d) They had a pipeline from Chicago's south and south-east side
       | that has recently been sniped by large state schools, leading to
       | a decline in enrollment.
       | 
       | For context, I worked with them on enrollment management and
       | declining enrollment a decade ago.
        
         | benatkin wrote:
         | > Lincoln College is scheduled to close its doors Friday,
         | becoming the first U.S. institution of higher learning to shut
         | down in part due to a ransomware attack.
         | 
         | In the first paragraph it's saying _in part_.
         | 
         | The article also details other challenges they face. We'll
         | never know if they would have found a way to address these
         | challenges and survive long-term had this not happened.
        
           | [deleted]
        
         | jacquesm wrote:
         | I totally buy that it wasn't the only reason but it is a
         | possibility that an already fragile institution would be
         | brought down by such an attack, if not this one then some other
         | one.
         | 
         | Some constructs are on the edge and kicking them may cause them
         | to collapse. It _probably_ will only change the timing but it
         | is still the kick that is the first order cause of the
         | collapse.
         | 
         | Plenty of institutions are being hit with a perfect storm, two
         | years of COVID and associated rules probably didn't help
         | either.
        
           | etempleton wrote:
           | It was likely the final straw, but certainly if that is all
           | it took for the institution to collapse they were going to
           | fail soon regardless.
           | 
           | A college or three have failed every year for the past 5
           | years or so. There will be more until populations of college
           | age students starts to grow again. Most small colleges are
           | extremely vulnerable.
           | 
           | Size and endowments offers some protection to large and
           | wealthy schools.
        
         | haggy102 wrote:
         | Greatly appreciate the context. Closures like this are rarely
         | (if ever) as one dimensional as the public announcements make
         | them appear to be.
        
         | abirch wrote:
         | There are many of these colleges that are going under. Their
         | competitive advantage was that not everyone could go to the top
         | Tier schools so they provide an expensive education. Especially
         | when you see what you can do with Bloom Tech (fka Lambda
         | School)
        
           | toomuchtodo wrote:
           | https://hechingerreport.org/analysis-hundreds-of-colleges-
           | an... (Analysis: hundreds of colleges and universities show
           | financial warning signs)
           | 
           | https://tuitiontracker.org/fitness/
        
         | tmp_anon_22 wrote:
         | > enrollment management
         | 
         | What would be a comparable industry perspective to the way
         | colleges fight over tuition generators (students)? Oil
         | companies fighting over oil fields?
        
           | nsv wrote:
           | Any industry which has clients that pay for a service, I
           | guess.
        
             | astrange wrote:
             | The difference is that (some) colleges are also motivated
             | to get you to apply so they can reject you, because it
             | makes them look more exclusive.
        
               | newsclues wrote:
               | Don't some financial service businesses operate on
               | similar principals.
        
               | astrange wrote:
               | Like Amex Centurion cards? They're definitely exclusive
               | (or fake-exclusive) but I haven't seen them actually
               | advertise rejection rates like colleges sometimes do.
        
           | cheriot wrote:
           | Large purchase, most customers choose one and leave the
           | market, many possible consumers, seasonal.
           | 
           | Residential solar or real estate agents?
           | 
           | The crazy thing to me about higher ed is that there's large
           | loans and everybody qualifies. We'd probably get a better
           | skills/job match by including the major in interest rate
           | calculations.
        
             | nanidin wrote:
             | > We'd probably get a better skills/job match by including
             | the major in interest rate calculations.
             | 
             | This brings up the hairy issue that all education should
             | not be focused on eventual income generation. We still need
             | our English, History, and other majors out there in the
             | real world even if we don't expect them to make a great ROI
             | on their degrees. Their contributions to society are still
             | worthwhile.
             | 
             | I think a policy that incorporates the major into the
             | interest rate would drive universities to cut less
             | profitable programs, and MAYBE lower tuition for those
             | majors.
             | 
             | I think my approach to change the system would be to put a
             | cap on the maximum loan that the government will back, and
             | have that cap be influenced by major. This would be similar
             | to the conventional loan situation for mortgages.
        
           | Loughla wrote:
           | Marketing pepsi versus coke maybe? It's all sales if you boil
           | it down (sadly).
           | 
           | Actually, in my opinion, one of the main problems in higher
           | education today is that the value proposition of the actual
           | education and student experience is secondary to the ability
           | to market. In other words, new programs are presented by
           | faculty (or rarely staff because of politics) and
           | administration will immediately ask how this can be sold to
           | increase enrollment (read: revenue). In other words, what is
           | best for students, in terms of experience and employment
           | outcomes, will always take a backseat to what is flashy and
           | looks good in a brochure.
        
             | shuntress wrote:
             | Well that is the problem with _everything_ , right?
             | 
             | When Profit is the system's main incentive, it can be easy
             | for decision makers to start viewing "profit" as an input
             | rather than an output.
        
           | newsclues wrote:
           | Education is a unique industry and market on to itself. I
           | worked in a part of it, and edu is just different than real
           | business.
           | 
           | You have government funding, both for research and education.
           | 
           | You have tuition and fees, which students pay but there are
           | student loans and grants etc.
           | 
           | You have endowments.
           | 
           | You have alumni and donor funding.
           | 
           | You have schools that develop technology and own profitable
           | patents.
           | 
           | Sports is its own topic that I don't know enough about to
           | comment on.
        
         | thaumasiotes wrote:
         | > Those schools have realized the value of helping their own
         | students be successful
         | 
         | Are they helping them in any way other than marking what would
         | previously have been a failing grade as a passing grade
         | instead?
        
       | Buttons840 wrote:
       | Nations should lessen the penalties for white-hat and even grey-
       | hat hackers who report their findings. They should have strong
       | protections; they are helping all of society and national
       | security. Instead, we have politicians and executives who make
       | legal threats to cover their mistakes and everyone suffers for
       | it. I have this view because I have personally walked away from
       | security problems I've discovered simply by pressing F12, I don't
       | want the legal hastles and costs.
       | 
       | Sadly, I think we're more likely to see pressing F12 become
       | illegal, meanwhile society will lament that half the country's
       | personal data is leaked on a weekly basis and ransomware runs
       | rampant.
        
         | FrenchDevRemote wrote:
         | > Nations should lessen the penalties for white-hat and even
         | grey-hat hackers who report their findings.
         | 
         | you mean increase the rewards?
        
           | bowsamic wrote:
           | In America they are aggressively prosecuted
        
         | munificent wrote:
         | _> Nations should lessen the penalties for white-hat and even
         | grey-hat hackers who report their findings._
         | 
         | Digital Good Samaritan laws.
        
           | hinkley wrote:
           | There's an overlap between privacy, civil liberties, and
           | anti-discrimination concerns where laws that can be
           | selectively enforced get disproportionately applied to any
           | and all groups that have 'isms' attacking them.
           | 
           | I confess that while I used to spend quite a deal of time
           | thinking about this class of problem, I haven't done much of
           | it recently, so the following is a mix of potentially
           | outdated thoughts and speculative nonfiction.
           | 
           | If you have the privilege to be outside of any or all of
           | those groups, I feel like it falls on us to speak up to
           | ensure that other people are okay, and Good Samaritan laws
           | can be problematic in this respect, because it's too easy to
           | convince a jury to deny 'those people' standing.
           | 
           | I wondered in another response if some sort of self-reporting
           | system would better serve this space. Possibly 'feature-
           | parity' with other citizen-action laws where community
           | policing and reporting are carried out. The latter closes out
           | a learning opportunity however because you're identifying and
           | reporting a suspicion of an issue and allowing The
           | Authorities to look into it. "We will take it from here."
           | doesn't afford you the opportunity to become part of 'we'.
           | 
           | Perhaps there's precedent with confidential informant laws,
           | and we need to reframe white hat hackers under that umbrella.
        
         | hinkley wrote:
         | Having better ways to telegraph your intentions is, as far as
         | I'm aware, still an issue, and I would support
         | improved/expanded methods of 'escrow' for this sort of work.
         | 
         | Way back in college, I talked myself into doing a white-hat
         | hack of a service another student was running that I valued
         | highly. He had used software with a rather nasty CERT advisory
         | outstanding. My attempts failed, which meant he had patched his
         | system, probably at the firewall. I shrugged and went on with
         | life.
         | 
         | Or at least I tried to, because the next day I got an email
         | from him telling me that he saw what I did and if I ever pulled
         | shit like that again he'd report me to the Dean's Office. For
         | the time, the university had some pretty sophisticated auditing
         | tools to backtrack problems including shenanigans of this sort
         | and because I was doing something 'good' I had just accessed
         | his system straight from my dorm room (I found out shortly
         | after that even if I had attempted to remote in he still would
         | have been able to send that email).
         | 
         | I offered an "apology" that was about what you'd expect from a
         | 20 year old white male: all excuses and rationalization. It
         | hadn't quite sunk in yet that this distinction between black
         | and white hat existed solely in my brain. I don't even think I
         | bothered to tell my roommate what I was planning to do. I had
         | zero alibi because I was impulsive. I never did anything like
         | that again. If memory serves, I told him I'd never do something
         | like that again (which means it was sinking in a little bit),
         | and that has been largely true.
         | 
         | In hindsight, I was such an earnest kid that any decent lawyer
         | could have would have been able to get me off with a warning,
         | that would have saddled me with debts that would have fucked up
         | my 20's, even if we had gotten a good rate through a family
         | friend. I'd probably have still failed a background check on
         | the piece of software that I worked on in my 30's that is and
         | probably will remain one of the mantelpieces of my career.
         | 
         | The Venn diagram of people with a suspicious enough mind to
         | think of trying what I did and the personality that would keep
         | them out of big trouble is very narrow. But to your point, the
         | circles for aptitude, desire, and history are pretty small. As
         | it turns out, I didn't enjoy being a low-bus-number person
         | responsible for the security of the system, so I now fall
         | outside of the 'desire' circle. These days I'm content to help
         | people sort out/select auth libraries, configure CA certs, and
         | occasionally talk trash about cryptocurrency. I have enough
         | other interests that I'm probably booked out until after
         | retirement.
        
           | dfxm12 wrote:
           | _Way back in college, I talked myself into doing a white-hat
           | hack of a service another student was running that I valued
           | highly._
           | 
           | "White hat" describes someone acting on behalf of the owner
           | of the system being tested. It sounds like you acted on your
           | own and thus were grey hat hacking. I only bring this up
           | because it has different ramifications, legal, social, and
           | otherwise.
        
       | nope96 wrote:
       | "Fortunately, no personal identifying information was exposed."
       | 
       | How can they know this?
        
         | edgyquant wrote:
         | Maybe the database that was stolen had none? I know my old
         | community college just used a pin for everything. Maybe all the
         | data tracks to this pin and then another database contains the
         | pin to real name/info mapping? Hopefully personal information
         | at a college has stricter regulation.
        
           | hakre wrote:
           | In this case the pin is the person identifying date. If such
           | a database system was used at place and in time of the
           | incident, it is known how many individuals are affected and
           | what data got out.
           | 
           | It is just not known which individuals in specific.
           | 
           | Should be common to send a notice to all individuals then and
           | explain the details so those who are affected do know and can
           | act.
        
         | protomyth wrote:
         | They might have outsourced their enrollment system like a lot
         | of smaller colleges to the vendor (e.g. Empower, Jasmine) and
         | not have had the information on servers that were compromised.
        
         | hakre wrote:
         | > How can they know this?
         | 
         | No insights on that, but this is more the way I read such
         | statements:
         | 
         | This is their report of what they know.
         | 
         | Common sense dictates that this does not mean much as we
         | normally only know a fraction of what is.
         | 
         | However it might also be a sign that they are not yet aware of
         | much at all as it is that overly unspecific.
        
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