[HN Gopher] UK's first full-sized autonomous bus takes to the ro...
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UK's first full-sized autonomous bus takes to the roads of Scotland
Author : ProZsolt
Score : 73 points
Date : 2022-05-07 10:19 UTC (12 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.fusionproc.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.fusionproc.com)
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| This is how to roll out autonomous vehicles - on known routes
| with a published schedule.
| [deleted]
| gbtwells wrote:
| t_mann wrote:
| Account created: 6 mins ago
|
| Posted: 4 mins ago
|
| Didn't want to use your main account for this?
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| If you don't want to have homeless people set uo tents on the
| streets its virtue signalling.
|
| If you are also wealthy you are a champaign socialist, becase
| socialists should be poor. If you are are poor and socialist,
| then you are envious of rich people.
|
| You just can't win
| brigandish wrote:
| Throwaway accounts are common, and considering they're
| attracting downvotes it seems like it was a good choice.
| dazc wrote:
| Whatever comment you make about Scotland, good or bad,
| someone will be offended.
| zeristor wrote:
| The company is called Fusion Processing. Is this some sort of
| tribute to the seventies film The Big Bus?
|
| https://youtu.be/Y1SJthmEiWk
|
| How will Dee Dee get to Yoker now?
|
| https://youtu.be/0YfRbNipdOg
| jack_riminton wrote:
| Apparently it uses a combination of radar, lidar and cameras
| https://www.cavforth.com/automated-vehicle-systems/ and
| presumably a lot of hand-crafted code for the route
| fredley wrote:
| The busses will have a safety driver on board, but apparently
| they expect they will not need to take control at all normally.
| It will be interesting to see (if possible) how much this holds
| up in reality.
| squishy47 wrote:
| no chance if it's on the country roads.
| revertmean wrote:
| "five single-deck autonomous buses operating at SAE Level 4
| over the Forth Road Bridge between Ferrytoll Park and Ride in
| Fife and the Edinburgh Park Train and Tram interchange."
| saddlerustle wrote:
| No chance, the company providing the software seems firmly at
| the 'tech demo' stage and mostly looks like a grift for
| government grants.
| hanoz wrote:
| I'm interested to know how a full time job of sitting doing
| nothing at all except be ready to drive a bus full of people at a
| moment's notice works out.
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| Rail transport has those kind of jobs already, don't they?
| matthewmacleod wrote:
| Not really. There is very limited use of "driverless" trains
| on the mainline network, and almost all trains are manually
| driven. Many of the London tube lines do use ATO though.
| iinnPP wrote:
| With the addition of knowing you are helping to train the
| permanent replacement as well.
| dazc wrote:
| I used to take a dialy bus ride in Spain where the driver would
| have an animated conversation with some of the regular
| passengers for the entire journey. I would have felt a lot
| safer if the bus was taking care of the actual driving.
| Kaibeezy wrote:
| Bus: large passenger vehicle; plural "buses".
|
| Buss: kiss, smooch; plural "busses".
| mellosouls wrote:
| _a bus 'Captain' who will move around the saloon, talking to
| passengers about the service and answering any questions they may
| have, demonstrating what a future service night feel like..._
|
| They use to call these "bus conductors" before they sacked them
| all to save money.
|
| https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_conductor
| HigherPlain wrote:
| That's a slightly "luddite" interpretation. The bus conductor
| job-class was outmoded by technology. More jobs are created at
| a higher technology level. This is how society has progressed
| for all history.
|
| A fantastic Mitchell and Webb comedy sketch on this topic:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyu4u3VZYaQ
| dazc wrote:
| I don't remeber bus conductors being that friendly and helpful
| though, tbh.
| mellosouls wrote:
| I don't believe you, I've seen "On The Buses'
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| They weren't so much sacked as they were made obsolete by
| technology and rising productivity. You could still find bus
| conductors in China even just 10 years ago where they still
| made sense a bit (if only to collect fares).
| mellosouls wrote:
| Yes, I included the link for more useful context, but
| ultimately I think it comes down to the same thing.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| Nice doublespeak
| Neekerer wrote:
| Many busses still have them in China
| pkphilip wrote:
| We still have them here in India
| midasuni wrote:
| Last time I was in Delhi (about 5 years ago) there were
| still elevator operators. Not only completely useless to me
| as a user, but also taking up space preventing people
| getting in when it's busy.
| hemreldop wrote:
| hanoz wrote:
| I hope this isn't a case of how many people does it take to
| drive an autonomous bus? Two, one to drive it, and the other to
| wander round telling passengers it's autonomous.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| Yes, the point of autonomous buses is partly to get rid of the
| human driver, so they are obviously not going to create a new
| position to continue to have a human on-board.
|
| This is temporary until people are used to, and confident
| about, a bus with no driver, and until law allows no emergency
| driver on-board.
| dazc wrote:
| Precedent being lift/elevator operators, I suppose?
| sixQuarks wrote:
| Or in the US, picking up used needles, cleaning vomit, piss and
| fecal matter.
| Markoff wrote:
| Is this test ride cheaper for the Scots considering higher risk?
| chrisseaton wrote:
| What risk is there to the passengers?
| throwawayboise wrote:
| Well, it's not _truly_ autonomous.
| blutack wrote:
| I had a chat with a DLR "passenger service agent" a few weeks ago
| (DLR, or Docklands Light Railway being a "fully automated" light
| rail system in London). He had opened the driving console at the
| front and was sitting there, I asked if there was a fault or
| something that meant they were operating in reversion mode (PSAs
| can drive the trains in certain failure cases).
|
| He said DLR introduced a policy many years ago where after 8pm or
| so (maybe just on Fri/Sat night?) the PSA needs to sit at the
| open drivers console ready to smack the emergency stop in case of
| people on the tracks. Before then it's optional, but some PSAs
| like to do it anyway in case "their train" hits someone.
|
| Not really much point to this but I thought it was interesting
| how the PSAs are effectively put in a position of responsibility
| for the actions of the autonomous vehicle but presumably are not
| compensated the same as an active(?) driver would be.
|
| Maybe a lot of the desire to move to "autonomous" (or really just
| more automated if it requires a safety driver) is a workaround
| for union wages by reclassifying drivers as new made up things.
|
| Presumably like a DLR these buses will always require a human to
| take responsibility in case of crash, accident, fire etc - but
| this way for arbitrary reasons you can pay less!
| Siira wrote:
| Driving is much more difficult than maybe pressing a button
| once in a year. Of course it'd pay less. Any lucid person can
| do it with little training.
| noobermin wrote:
| There's no harm in unionizing bus attendants as well.
| avianlyric wrote:
| > Not really much point to this but I thought it was
| interesting how the PSAs are effectively put in a position of
| responsibility for the actions of the autonomous vehicle but
| presumably are not compensated the same as an active(?) driver
| would be.
|
| This is an interesting question. Most drivers on the
| underground aren't _active_ drivers at. I think every deep
| level tube line, except the Bakerloo, is autonomous, and the
| trains can't be driven manually in normal operations because a
| human driver can't react fast enough to continuous adjustments
| that are sent to train. Adjustments that are needed to safely
| operate the tube system at the frequency and close follow
| distance or achieves during peak.
|
| Instead the only things a tube driver does is check the doors
| before closing them, instructing the train to depart, and
| hitting the emergency stop if something goes wrong. They
| probably do get paid more than PSA, but I know they get extra
| compensation due to amount of time they work underground.
|
| I do want what level of liability a PSA is exposed to in that
| position. Presumably they would be in trouble if they were
| obviously not paying attention during the evening hours. But
| assuming they're playing in their phone, I suspect they have
| little to no liability at all in the event of an incident. But
| I suspect that the emotional toll if "their" train hit someone
| would be high, regardless of their responsibilities.
|
| > Maybe a lot of the desire to move to "autonomous" (or really
| just more automated if it requires a safety driver) is a
| workaround for union wages by reclassifying drivers as new made
| up things.
|
| TfL actually have no desire to automate existing lines. The
| costs involved are astronomical, the saving minimal, and
| service improvements almost non-existent. For TfL there number
| one priority is improving capacity, and the biggest blocker to
| capacity on the underground isn't drivers, it's trains,
| signalling systems, and above all dwell time in stations.
|
| The signalling systems place a hard cap on maximum trains per
| hour, and the existing systems haven't performed as well as
| hoped (it should be mentioned that these systems were cutting
| edge when installed, TfL tech tends to be on the absolute
| bleeding edge of metro technology, but the problem is
| fundamentally harder to solve than original expected), and
| dwell time (the time spent in stations getting people on and
| off the trains) his hard to reduce much further, without re-
| engineering trains and stations to increase the number of doors
| and platform crowding.
|
| Central government has been pushing the automation angle
| because it's a "simple" solution to TfL finance problems. But
| as usual the problem is vastly more complex than that, and the
| "simple" solution is only good because it feel intuitively
| correct to public that doesn't understand the actual problems
| TfL faces.
|
| London reconnections has a number of fantastic articles
| covering all this:
|
| https://www.londonreconnections.com/2014/driverless-trains-p...
|
| https://www.londonreconnections.com/2020/tfl-the-impossible-...
| gsnedders wrote:
| > I think every deep level tube line, except the Bakerloo, is
| autonomous, and the trains can't be driven manually in normal
| operations because a human driver can't react fast enough to
| continuous adjustments that are sent to train.
|
| Piccadilly and Waterloo & City are also manually driven.
|
| AIUI, the SelTrac system on the Northern and Jubilee lines
| _can_ often be beaten performance-wise, but for reasons of
| service consistency and predictability this isn't allowed (by
| policy) on-peak.
| blutack wrote:
| Excellent points and London Reconnections is great!
|
| I suppose the crux of my ramble was in the fact I had to
| invent the term "active" driver (there may be a more
| appropriate way to describe how low level in the feedback
| loop of vehicle control a human operator is, but I don't know
| it).
|
| How we draw a line between who is a "driver" and why does the
| DLR (which is arguably pretty close to an ATO tube in terms
| of automation level) have PSAs whilst the tubes have drivers?
| If it isn't cost related is it a public perception thing (ooh
| this fancy train must be automatic it doesn't have a driver).
| Although as a passenger, being able to sit in the front seat
| of a DLR is very fun!
|
| If the safety monitor human (PSA/safety driver/whatever) has
| to be trained and licensed to operate the vehicle in manual
| mode, why is that any different to a driver of a traditional
| mainline train? Should a traditional train driver get a
| higher wage because they spend more time in a lower level
| feedback loop?
| twic wrote:
| FWIW, TfL doesn't call them drivers anyway, the title is
| "train operator". I believe this is because their duties
| combine those that would traditionally belong to both a
| driver and a guard. Although the regime of working without
| guards is called "driver only operation", so what's going
| on there.
|
| The crew on the DLR were originally called "train
| captains", which i think is an excellent name, and should
| be brought back.
| antihero wrote:
| A DLR guy let me press the horn when I was on a date once.
| Incredible night. He also let my date press the horn.
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| Wink wink say no more say no more!
| netsharc wrote:
| Was your date a goer?! Ey, was she?!
| drdunce wrote:
| How? Did machine learning leap forward yesterday when I wasn't
| looking? Did we achieve even basic common-sense reasoning? Or are
| they planning to unleash several tonnes of machinery onto the
| roads filled with passengers guided with little more than a CNN
| and a sprinkle of reinforcement learning that knows how to stay
| between the lines?
| rsynnott wrote:
| Well, it's the type of autonomous vehicle that has _two_ crew,
| as opposed to the more normal one for buses...
| dboreham wrote:
| For those not familiar with the area, the route is a mile or so
| of totally straight road with passing not needed, pedestrians
| fenced off and no bicycles. And if there are blowing plastic
| bags they'll be traveling at around 70mph in the wind so no
| time to pick them up on the lidar.
| drdunce wrote:
| Not familiar with the area(s). But there's two I believe? One
| over a bridge that terminates after a roundabout the
| otherside, and one in Edinburgh.
| Kaibeezy wrote:
| The route is back and forth across the firth from the
| park-'n'-ride in Fife to the intermodal station near EDI.
| dxuh wrote:
| You need to keep the bus "captain", because half of a bus
| driver's job is helping old people figuring out which bus to take
| and where to go and keeping the passengers in check (to prevent
| vandalism, throw out rowdies or even call the police if there is
| violence among the passengers, etc.). Occasionally it does not
| feel safe to take the bus as it is and without a driver to call
| the police if something happens, that would be the case much more
| often.
|
| And if you need to keep at least one employee in the bus, why
| would you take them off the wheel and very likely increase the
| risk of an accident, while also making it more complicated
| legally in case an accident happens. I don't see a gain, unless
| the end game is to get rid of employees inside the bus altogether
| in which case the service quality would decrease drastically,
| because that half of the bus driver's job I talked about earlier
| is ignored completely.
|
| Maybe it's a good fit in that specific case with the "pre-
| selected roads", but I am legitimately concerned about this
| technology being adopted widespread (esp. in the cities) and I
| don't like the thought of it.
| mijamo wrote:
| Depends of the place I guess. In some places bus drivers will
| absolutely never help you with anything but will mostly be
| useful for the company to make sure the fare is paid. You can
| even have foreigner driving buses that don't even speak the
| local language in some places. In yet other places drivers are
| explicitly not responsible for anything but driving to ensure
| their own safety, and are sometimes even physically separated
| from the public.
|
| Helping customers can also be made through intercoms at
| stations (some cities already have that).
|
| Also note that you have fully autonomous metro without any
| driver in many cities and a metro contains much more people
| that can have the problems you mention, so I don't see why it
| would be impossible to have a bus in the same way.
| avianlyric wrote:
| > And if you need to keep at least one employee in the bus, why
| would you take them off the wheel
|
| Driver can help passengers if they're driving. I could imagine
| a world where you move the employee to the middle of the Bus
| and have them help with passenger loading/unloading and
| providing ticketing and help while the vehicle is in motion.
|
| This is something you see on the trams in Amsterdam, they have
| a conductor in booth in the middle of the tram that can sell
| tickets etc. That way trams don't need to wait at stops while
| the driver is selling tickets and dealing with customer
| queries. As a passenger it means you can ask about what stop to
| get off without distracting the driver.
| badkitty99 wrote:
| ellen364 wrote:
| Last year I got to ride an automated shuttle bus as part of a
| trial in Cambridge. That had an extremely short route and was
| very much a trial, with a small number of pre-booked tickets
| available.[0] Sounds like the Scottish trial is much further
| along, which is great to hear.
|
| [0] https://www.greatercambridge.org.uk/smart/autonomous-
| vehicle...
| blibble wrote:
| for some reason Cambridge county council is obsessed with buses
|
| it ripped up a perfectly good railway line (against the wish of
| Cambridge city council) and replaced it with guided buses
|
| the journey that took 40 minutes in the 1900s now takes 90
| minutes
| mhandley wrote:
| I hope autonomous buses are more patient with cyclists than human
| drivers are. Don't you love it when a bus passes you just before
| a bus stop, then brakes to a stop right in front of you, forcing
| you out into traffic to pass. Would only lose five seconds to
| slow down until the bike is past the stop.
| olivermarks wrote:
| I hope future cyclists are more considerate of autonomous buses
| than with those driven by humans - so many cyclists seem to
| feel everything is downstream from them in importance.
| Autonomous buses having to brake suddenly because cyclists have
| suddenly cut in could really slow bus journeys down. This will
| be more of an issue in cities where shoals of cyclists
| typically disregard traffic regulations and ride aggressively.
|
| Human drivers have learnt how to cope with this but I suspect
| cyclists will know the bus will always give way to them and
| take advantage of that...
| asdff wrote:
| Bikes shouldn't be sharing the grade anyhow with traffic.
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