[HN Gopher] Sentry.io outage
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Sentry.io outage
        
       Author : rakken
       Score  : 140 points
       Date   : 2022-05-06 10:39 UTC (12 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (status.sentry.io)
 (TXT) w3m dump (status.sentry.io)
        
       | orose_ wrote:
       | It's somewhat ironic that a monitoring service has shit the bed.
       | For some reason at work we're using Webpack, and, for some reason
       | we are also using Sentry Webpack plugin that is causing our whole
       | CI to fail.
       | 
       | This is fine.
        
         | CSDude wrote:
         | This is a choice, usually hidden until you stumble upon it. Is
         | Sentry being available, (actually, the ability to upload
         | sourcemaps) that important for you to fail a CI or you can just
         | fire up a warning somewhere?
        
         | bovermyer wrote:
         | Maybe it's just me, but I feel like monitoring software
         | failures should not cause application failures.
        
           | rtpg wrote:
           | It's likely that the failure is around Sentry's "signal a
           | release and upload your source code out of band to us"
           | feature.
           | 
           | In theory things shouldn't break but if your CI process
           | involves signaling a third party, it can fail from that
           | (hopefully you can temporarily disable it or something of the
           | sort)
        
             | the_gipsy wrote:
             | Yes the CI should fail, or else you would be deploying
             | something that can't match your errors to your source code
             | (via the sourcemaps which is what presumably gets uploaded
             | to sentry on the CI run).
        
               | luismedel wrote:
               | Take in advance that I don't know Sentry, nor webpack et
               | al but, in my mind, I'd like to have an opportunity to
               | continue my build process with a big, red warning.
               | 
               | I prefer a 98% accurate error reporting better than a
               | 100% one I can't push to production.
               | 
               | Or maybe I'm not understanding well the value Sentry
               | offers, of course.
        
               | np_tedious wrote:
               | I kind of agree. Their source map thing to get better
               | traces is a nicety, but few would find it release
               | blocking to forgo it
               | 
               | Edit due to other comment: this assumes CI/CD. If you
               | were deploying only weekly then this might be good reason
               | to delay
        
               | the_gipsy wrote:
               | It can be desired to continue on failure, the tradeoff is
               | that there is then a release out there with lacking
               | error-sourcecode mapping.
               | 
               | I think if your release cycle is longer, then you will
               | prefer not to deploy without sourcemaps.
        
       | ncmncm wrote:
       | What is this sentry.io thing for anyway? Should I block its JS
       | code?
        
         | aaronbrethorst wrote:
         | Exception tracking. I use it to monitor exceptions in my Rails
         | app.
        
         | mekster wrote:
         | Error reporting. I wish you don't.
        
       | raunometsa wrote:
       | I wake up to discover that my site https://remotehunt.com is
       | super slow. First thing I do is visit HN to see what's up and I
       | instantly see that Sentry is down.
       | 
       | I'm using Sentry to monitor logs and it now makes sense. Ok, so I
       | remove Sentry from Laravel's error handler but nothing changes.
       | And it's weird because sometimes it works, sometimes not. I tweak
       | some things on Cloudflare (turning on Under Attack mode etc).
       | 
       | I still have this feeling that maybe it's related to Sentry: I'm
       | using it and HN says it's down. So I go and remove the composer
       | package as well, just in case. And it worked.
       | 
       | It took like an hour... I didn't use Sentry anyways :)
       | 
       | What did I learn: do not depend on external services if you
       | really don't need it.
        
         | mekster wrote:
         | You post not knowing what happened just to say you don't use
         | sentry in the end?
        
         | obituary_latte wrote:
         | Are you using Google cloud?
         | https://status.cloud.google.com/incidents/4Qvmd4q81VnA9RirCM...
        
         | hadrien01 wrote:
         | Shouldn't Sentry be called asynchronously?
        
           | darknavi wrote:
           | Can still bog down job queues and cause odd hiccups.
        
         | philip1209 wrote:
         | Sentry's outage documentation implies that some underlying
         | platform is the cause. Perhaps there's a major data center
         | having issues?
        
           | raunometsa wrote:
           | Maybe yes. It was very weird: even without sending any error
           | messages to Sentry, it was still slow just by having the
           | composer package installed. Some Sentry DNS thing? (https://d
           | ocs.sentry.io/platforms/php/guides/laravel/#configu...)
        
       | fbrncci wrote:
       | Why do these outages come at just the right time, when you are
       | showing friends or colleagues sentry; in relation to preventing
       | outages.
        
         | mekster wrote:
         | Because someone is doing what you're doing at every moment?
        
       | letitbeirie wrote:
       | A few years ago I was showing someone how many calls a request to
       | Spotify makes and I noticed they were getting 429s from Sentry.
       | An amusing little insight into what is surely a thorn in some
       | Spotify engineer's side.
        
       | dodgerdan wrote:
       | I've used them for a number of years, never so much as a blip.
       | Looks like they're doing a good job managing this outage. They're
       | also super transparent with their bugs in their change logs. I
       | recommend and love Sentry.
        
         | dawnerd wrote:
         | And they let you self host for free, although it is quite the
         | process.
        
       | bluepnume wrote:
       | Sentry went down? My only question is - how did they find out?
        
       | jhiesey wrote:
       | The domain sentry.io resolves (for me at least) to a Google Cloud
       | ip address in the us-central1 region, which is having an outage
       | as well:
       | https://status.cloud.google.com/incidents/4Qvmd4q81VnA9RirCM...
        
         | jvmiert wrote:
         | Seems you are right:
         | https://twitter.com/mitsuhiko/status/1522550576734691328
        
         | candiddevmike wrote:
         | I am seeing some GKE control plane weirdness this morning too.
         | API server endpoints going unreachable intermittently.
        
         | nik736 wrote:
         | Are they using a single zone though? Only a single zone seems
         | to be down.
        
           | dijit wrote:
           | I think it can be unfair to characterise single zone failures
           | as being an failure to adequately deploy or architect.
           | 
           | There's many opportunities for failure even if only a single
           | zone goes away; most (if not nearly all) database solutions
           | elect leaders for example, and "brown-outs" (as in, not total
           | failures) can lead to the leader maintaining leadership
           | status, or at least messing with quorum.
           | 
           | other situations can exist where the migration out of a zone
           | leads to hardware becoming unavailable for consumption for
           | other people, after all, the cloud is not magic and if
           | peoples workloads auto shift to the surrounding (unaffected)
           | zones then it will impact peoples ability to do the same
           | migration as all the free hardware could be used up.
           | 
           | I can think of dozens of examples honestly where even if you
           | had built everything multi-zonal you could be down due to a
           | single zone; for instance if some unknown subsystem was zonal
           | (like IAM?) or you use regionally available persistent disks
           | and now they suddenly perform extremely bad with writes
           | because they can't sync to the unavailable datacenter.
           | 
           | I believe multi-zone is less possible than we would like it
           | to be, there are many cases where you can commit no error but
           | still be completely at the mercy of a single zone going away.
        
             | throwaway787544 wrote:
             | Yeah but it looks bad
        
             | samstave wrote:
             | I remember when it was the control plane at AWS US-West
             | that went out - causing mass havoc for many regardless of
             | your architecture.
        
             | scottlamb wrote:
             | > I believe multi-zone is less possible than we would like
             | it to be, there are many cases where you can commit no
             | error but still be completely at the mercy of a single zone
             | going away.
             | 
             | There are many understandable ways to accidentally have a
             | single point of failure. But if your conclusion after the
             | outage is that there was no mistake, you have made two of
             | them, and the second is much less understandable.
        
       | ngshiheng wrote:
       | One of the SaaS with the best free tier out there. Been using
       | their service for years now
        
       | javier2 wrote:
       | I am actually amazed this does not happen more often.
        
       | nickincardone wrote:
       | I just dealt with this in my laravel app and it was preventing
       | the application from working. I was able to resolve by
       | redeploying app with "SENTRY_LARAVEL_DSN=null" in the .env file
        
         | ruuds wrote:
         | I'm curious if using Relay
         | (https://docs.sentry.io/product/relay/) would prevent these
         | problems?
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | matxd wrote:
       | Looks like Rollbar (their competitor) is also struggling with
       | some problems right now. https://status.rollbar.com/
        
       | frogperson wrote:
       | I wonder if they are on GCP which is also down this morning
       | durning the same time frame.
        
         | emptysea wrote:
         | Yeah they use GCP for most of their stuff.
         | 
         | Not sure if their POP ingest servers are on it though.
        
       | CSDude wrote:
       | #HugOps from ex-Opsgenie SRE. I know the pressure you are on as a
       | mission critical software that people depend on you with their
       | alerts, exceptions etc. I left more than 6 months ago and still
       | recovering from the responsibility toll.
       | 
       | You have a great history of availability and would like to say
       | congrats.
        
       | golergka wrote:
       | Wait, is it an honest status page? Not only red, but with timely
       | updates at the top, too?
        
       | nicoburns wrote:
       | Obviously it's never good when a service has an outage, but it
       | looks like Sentry's status page reports the actual status which
       | makes a nice change.
        
         | that_guy_iain wrote:
         | Plus, it's literally the first time I've seen them having an
         | outage over the years so it seems like they're generally doing
         | well on staying up.
        
           | jrockway wrote:
           | I think this was their Big One:
           | https://blog.sentry.io/2015/07/23/transaction-id-
           | wraparound-...
        
             | numbsafari wrote:
             | ... from 7 years ago.
             | 
             | They've been pretty solid.
             | 
             | I've been really happy with Sentry. No muss, no fuss as a
             | vendor.
             | 
             | I wish they would buy/bundle a status monitoring tool.
        
         | krono wrote:
         | If even their own operational telemetry were misrepresented,
         | one might have started wondering about the accuracy of what
         | they're reporting to their customers.
         | 
         | So, I agree, but it's not like they really had a choice :)
        
           | s_dev wrote:
           | It's well known that the AWS status page doesn't reflect the
           | actual uptime. Anytime an massive outage is repored here on
           | HN the AWS status page shows all green.
           | 
           | Anytime this debate comes up there are two camps of thought
           | -- the AWS camp where "measuring service degradation" is one
           | of the most insanely complex problems that we lesser devs
           | will never understand -- and the other camp is StatusGator a
           | cheap service that seems to be easily able to tell you when
           | one of your services you use is having trouble - including
           | AWS.
        
             | krono wrote:
             | Nevertheless, considering telemetry is Sentry's bread and
             | butter it wouldn't be a good look on them in many a
             | manager's eyes.
        
       | zeeg wrote:
       | Service should be nearly restored at this point. We apologize for
       | the significant interrupt to everyones days. As most of you all
       | figured out at this point the issue was with a regional failure
       | in GCP (central, which is our primary zone). We're going to be
       | exploring what we can do to lessen a single zone failure, and
       | more importantly, reduce/remove any impact of the storage
       | services being unavailable.
       | 
       | <3
        
         | zeeg wrote:
         | For folks reading this - and we'll solve this at a global scale
         | - check your `SENTRY_DSN` setting and if its not using
         | something like `oXXXXX.ingest.sentry.io` you should consider
         | rolling out the updated value (located in your project
         | settings). Our master domain routing layer is a more
         | complicated failure point, and moving to the ingest based
         | domains pushes you to our edge layer which _should_ be
         | extremely reliable as well as much reduced global latency.
        
       | dijit wrote:
       | Sentry is a great product, I love even more that you can self-
       | host it; otherwise I would be one of the people denigrating
       | everyone for running their entire operation on SaaS products.
       | 
       | As it stands if their reliability leaves something to be desired:
       | run your own.
       | 
       | These things happen, they're more common the more complicated or
       | huge your setup.
       | 
       | Good luck to them in getting it resolved.
        
         | Klathmon wrote:
         | Has anyone here used their self hosted version?
         | 
         | I always assume that running an on-prem version of a SAAS
         | offering is going to be a shit show, but I'm curious if anyone
         | here uses it?
        
           | scblzn wrote:
           | I do, it works great with their docker-compose install -
           | processing a few billion events per day here. Installation
           | and subsequent minor/major upgrades without any flaw so far,
           | plus they have extensive documentation for the self hosted
           | version which is to note.
        
           | franch wrote:
           | I'm using it for a small project and it works fine. Self
           | hosting is documented here: https://develop.sentry.dev/self-
           | hosted/
           | 
           | Upgrading is a little bit tricky: in my (limited) experience
           | the upgrading procedure for the self-hosted version sometimes
           | fails and requires to take the application offline to perform
           | the upgrade (but it is very possible that I may be doing
           | something wrong).
           | 
           | It is really an invaluable tool.
        
           | MrHamdulay wrote:
           | The SaaS offering came later. I used to run it on-prem a few
           | years ago before the SaaS showed up and it was very low
           | maintenance. More of a fire and forget situation once it was
           | set up.
        
           | joekrill wrote:
           | I looked into it at one point and found it required a lot of
           | underlying services and seemed really complex. Primarily I
           | was worried about the maintenance costs moving forward with
           | something like that.
           | 
           | There is an open-sourced option called GlitchTip
           | (https://glitchtip.com/) that is much simpler to self-host. I
           | believe they forked the Sentry repo before the license
           | change. It's not quite as feature rich but is a pretty great
           | alternative.
        
           | AbacusAvenger wrote:
           | I've been running it for almost a year, using docker-compose.
           | It seems rather unstable for me. Every week or so, Sentry
           | will just stop handling incoming events, and the request
           | queues just keep growing. And if you try to upload symbols in
           | this state, it will pause forever when trying to process
           | them. So I've got a script[0] I can run that will unbreak it,
           | but I don't fully understand what it actually does (I cobbled
           | that script together based on a GitHub issue[1] that
           | described the same problem). The Sentry architecture is
           | complicated and not trivial to debug.
           | 
           | When it works, it's pretty good. I'm using it with sentry-
           | native on the application side, which uses Crashpad to
           | capture stack traces of native binaries (x86/ARM,
           | Windows/Mac/Linux, whatever). It often doesn't deduplicate
           | events properly, and the stack trace qualities vary
           | dramatically by platform. Sometimes the stack traces it
           | provides are total nonsense, but it does allow downloading
           | the minidump files, so I can dig at them in Visual Studio and
           | see what's really going on. I have discovered and solved many
           | real bugs using it, so I've put up with the frustrating
           | stability issues.
           | 
           | [0] https://gist.github.com/tycho/4279ce2ca47b293a85696695968
           | 263...
           | 
           | [1] https://github.com/getsentry/self-hosted/issues/478
        
           | ohnoesjmr wrote:
           | I run it on k8s for a medium sized company, as running via
           | compose didn't seem to scale well for us. I even upgraded
           | from 9.11 which ran a handful of containers to the most
           | recent version which runs 15+ containers.
           | 
           | You get used to the quirks of running it and then it just
           | works, but it did take some time polishing the health checks
           | etc to get it HA and scalable.
           | 
           | None of the helm charts I tried actually worked or provided
           | HA.
        
             | tehbeard wrote:
             | Pardon my ignorance but how on earth does it need 15+
             | containers?
             | 
             | Is that just a scaling thing for your company? Or are their
             | 15 discrete services under the hood to drive it?
        
               | sofixa wrote:
               | It really does run a _ton_ of different services under
               | the hood. It 's designed for their type of scale, a
               | small-scale deployment would probably work OK without
               | Zookeeper and similar.
               | 
               | https://develop.sentry.dev/architecture/
        
           | carrja99 wrote:
           | We run the on-prem version, but looking to transition to SaaS
           | soon. While one can point at the current outage and say "good
           | thing we run it ourselves!" it is a chore to keep updated and
           | running smoothly.
           | 
           | That said, it runs untouched for long stretches of time no
           | problem.
        
           | metafunctor wrote:
           | I've being running their self-hosted version, and it's kind
           | of OK.
           | 
           | Nowhere near as nice as, say, GitLab's Ubuntu packages which
           | you can simply apt-get install, unattended automatic
           | (security) updates are available and work well, and it's been
           | mostly a set-up-and-forget type of thing. For GitLab, backups
           | and most ops procedures are well documented.
           | 
           | Sentry, on the other hand, requires you to run a script to
           | upgrade with their docker-compose thingies. You must remember
           | to upgrade.
           | 
           | Self-hosted Sentry runs on docker, which on Ubuntu is a bit
           | of a security shitshow what with docker side-stepping UFW and
           | all that.
           | 
           | Recently Sentry tripled (seems like) the number of containers
           | they spin up, and it seems much heavier than a couple of
           | years ago. You can still get away with 8G RAM, so it's not
           | really that bad, to be honest.
           | 
           | Backing up Sentry was simple enough. However, a lot of
           | questions are answered in the style "if you want to know
           | more, buy the enterprise version". But, I've backed up and
           | restored a Sentry system and it worked out OK, so I guess
           | we're fine. Unless they change something, and then we're
           | hosed without realizing it.
           | 
           | So, Sentry's self-hosted version is OK, but clearly not their
           | number one priority. I have no idea what Sentry would look
           | like with a self-hosted distributed/HA setup. Our data
           | protection policies would absolutely prohibit us from using
           | their cloud services, so maybe I'll have find out, but I'm
           | not looking forward to that.
        
           | mekster wrote:
           | It works if you can live with 28 containers (messing up
           | "docker container ls" output that I always have to "grep -v
           | sentry") literally eating 2GB+ memory just to have it
           | launched.
           | 
           | Ideally, things run as a single binary with bring-your-own-
           | database but that's not the case here.
           | 
           | I wish I could use my already installed ClickHouse to save
           | some memory but the version constraint and some very
           | complicated docker compose setup on their end wasn't worth
           | trying.
           | 
           | But I still love the product itself, so I'll let it chew my
           | memory.
           | 
           | Upgrade has been fine as the manual says, you pull their git
           | repo, run the installer and worked fine on all my past
           | several occasions.
        
           | endemic wrote:
           | A previous company did. Reliability seemed fine; it was a way
           | to ensure no PHI/PII was accidentally sent to a 3rd party as
           | part of an error report.
        
             | metafunctor wrote:
             | Not just PII, but access tokens to 3rd party systems in
             | case of integrations and whatnot.
             | 
             | A Sentry data leak could include valid access tokens to,
             | say, all data on a customer's Docusign account. We try to
             | make sure data like that is scrubbed before sending to
             | Sentry... but mistakes can happen. This is simply not a
             | risk we are willing to take.
             | 
             | Thus, we self-host Sentry in our own secure infrastructure
             | (we are a SaaS provider ourselves), and accept all the
             | maintenance burden that it entails.
        
           | heipei wrote:
           | I am using it, but it is not fun to use. It spawns 28 Docker
           | containers (yes, that's the actual number), including things
           | like nginx, postgres, memcached, redis, kafka, zookeeper,
           | clickhouse. I've tried upgrading it once and it failed
           | miserably, after which I simply started from scratch.
           | 
           | I would like to use their hosted version, or a more stable
           | paid on-prem version. Pricing is not the issue for me, but I
           | don't want to introduce another third-party service and have
           | to include that in compliance documentation for our
           | customers. That is the reason I still self-host many things
           | to be honest.
        
             | bredren wrote:
             | Would you mind sharing which other saas products you are so
             | posting?
        
               | heipei wrote:
               | Well the bare minimum that you have to tell your
               | customers is your cloud provider / hosting provider, then
               | you sometimes have a separate provider for Object Storage
               | (S3 or Backblaze), maybe another one for email delivery
               | (Mailgun). You might have an invoicing/CRM portal
               | (Stripe), SCM (Github), Chat (Slack), your own email
               | setup (Gmail). And that is not even talking about any
               | client-side tracking, things like Google Analytics etc.
               | So it really makes sense to cut down the number of third
               | parties, especially if there is any scenario in which
               | they would be handling PII, and especially if you're
               | selling to customers in heavily regulated industries.
        
           | twunde wrote:
           | Their self-hosted version works well with the caveat that the
           | upgrade process can be a pain and can be buggy. I used their
           | docker-compose open source version which involved downtime to
           | spin down the stack, then spin up the new stack. Considering
           | that there's no enterprise support for on-prem, its nice that
           | it works so well. If you're using their apm/observability you
           | will need to keep an eye out on disk space and memory/cpu
           | after turning it on, we ran into resources issues due to the
           | amount of data we started sending. Otherwise it's rock solid
           | and cost-efficient, we were paying 500ish bucks a month for
           | infra and 1-2 days of dev time for something sentry.io quoted
           | 50,000K/month for. I imagine the kubernetes installer is much
           | less hands on in terms of upgrades. Would use again without
           | any hesitation.
        
           | drej wrote:
           | We used to run it self hosted, but the architecture is rather
           | complex, so we ended up switching to their SaaS offering. I
           | tried advocating [0] for a leaner architecture for simpler
           | setups + to run integration tests against... but it wasn't
           | met with much enthusiasm.
           | 
           | I imagine 99% of installations (and certainly CI pipelines)
           | would be fine with their wsgi webserver and sqlite instead of
           | Clickhouse, Relay, memcached, nginx, Postgres, Kafka and a
           | host of other services. I wanted to take a stab at this
           | myself, but given the complexity of the system, uncertainty
           | of being able to merge it back, and, last but not least,
           | their license, I decided against it.
           | 
           | [0]: https://github.com/getsentry/sentry/issues/32794
        
             | kenrick95 wrote:
             | This has been the experience at my company as well. The
             | previous version of Sentry Server was okay-ish to self-
             | host, but the newest version requires setting up some more
             | services that our infra unwilling to setup/maintain as they
             | are different from the tech stack that our devs use in the
             | company. We ended up with SaaS too
        
         | kawsper wrote:
         | I love Sentry.
         | 
         | But my team settled on Honeybadger.io which is fine, but I
         | still prefer Sentry.
        
         | Cthulhu_ wrote:
         | > run your own.
         | 
         | Is there a good name for this theory that self-hosting
         | something is more reliable? I mean yeah, if you have an outage
         | it only affects you and your customers so I guess it's an
         | improvement in that regard, but thinking you're better at
         | running software than a SaaS is hubris.
        
           | Nextgrid wrote:
           | > but thinking you're better at running software than a SaaS
           | is hubris.
           | 
           | Disagreed on several points.
           | 
           | First off, if you're using something like Sentry, chances are
           | that building and running software is your job so it should
           | not be a problem. If self-hosting Sentry is a problem I would
           | start doubting the skills of your tech team.
           | 
           | Second, running a service for your own use is very different
           | to running a service that has to scale to the entire world.
           | Your service won't need as many moving & distributed parts as
           | the SaaS Sentry since it will only ever have to handle a
           | fraction of the latter's traffic.
           | 
           | Finally, if you're in control, you can schedule risky
           | maintenance operations during times where a potential
           | accident (operator error, etc) won't affect your business.
           | You can't do that with an SaaS.
        
             | generalk wrote:
             | > If self-hosting Sentry is a problem I would start
             | doubting the skills of your        > tech team.
             | 
             | I can't think of any team I've worked at in the past year
             | for whom reading the self-hosted Sentry docs and standing
             | up an instance would be impossible.
             | 
             | However, my experience is by and large at early-stage
             | startups, and so I also can't think of any instance where
             | I'd want to have my team working on that when they could be
             | working on adding value to our product. If I can pay Sentry
             | to handle setup, scaling, maintenance, etc (and I do!),
             | then that's worth it when weighed against the dollar and
             | opportunity cost of having my team handle it.
             | 
             | That's not to mention maintenance or other issues.
        
               | dijit wrote:
               | Just so we're clear: I completely agree with that stance.
               | My grandparent comment is quipping that the _option_ is
               | rarely on the table.
               | 
               | We as an industry build our businesses on proprietary
               | solutions that are difficult (nearing on impossible) or
               | extremely expensive to self-host.
               | 
               | I love that there are options for SaaS; I strongly
               | dislike being locked into SaaS -- and it feels like a lot
               | of the companies I join are locked into some SaaS
               | offering with no possible migration plan, despite dubious
               | uptimes, awful support, rising prices and overall
               | dissatisfaction with the product. (atlassian springs to
               | mind immediately)
               | 
               | It's tech debt, of a certain type; and some tech debt is
               | acceptable, especially in a startup.
               | 
               | Having an option such as Sentries to self-host is
               | basically the best you're going to get... Gitlab is the
               | same: Pay them to host, or host it yourself, the product
               | is the same, the only "debt" incurred is the setup and
               | migration, which is much lower than, say, Jira ->
               | YouTrack.
        
             | sofixa wrote:
             | > First off, if you're using something like Sentry, chances
             | are that building and running software is your job so it
             | should not be a problem. If self-hosting Sentry is a
             | problem I would start doubting the skills of your tech team
             | 
             | Sentry is a pretty complex piece of software with a lot of
             | moving parts. They have good orchestration around it,
             | either Helm charts for Kube deployments or a giant bash
             | script managing docker-compose for mono-machine, and it
             | just works. However understanding either of them, and being
             | capable of debugging aren't skills i expect your average
             | developer to have. It's more for SRE/Infra/Platform/etc.
             | folk. Like i don't expect the average developer to be
             | capable of debugging Kubernetes on their own.
             | 
             | Of course, many of them absolutely can, but many more would
             | prefer that to people who do that for a living. The type of
             | developer using Heroku and other PaaSes precisely to avoid
             | getting their hands too deep into infrastructure stuff.
        
           | boesboes wrote:
           | It's not going to be more reliable probably, especially if
           | you are trying to host a app with tens of services talking to
           | each other. Scale/load might make a difference sometimes. I'm
           | thinking github's recent issues here. But I wouldn't want to
           | self-host github/gitlab, that would become a full time job
           | probably :) If we decided github was not reliable enough, I'd
           | just make sure we would not be dependend on it for normal
           | work and maybe run my own git server and mirror it to GH.
           | 
           | I am however a proponent of self-hosting open source things
           | you could get as a managed service. I.e databases, elastic
           | search, redis etc. Provided you have the expertise to do that
           | and benifit from it. For example, I used to run a redis setup
           | that would failover in <5s on crashes and with basically 0
           | downtime for upgrades etc. Now we use ElastiCache and an
           | upgrade will cause serveral minutes of downtime. I haven't
           | had redis crash ever, but I have had elasticache & rds
           | instances dissapear. Sometimes failover works, sometimes not
           | and you have little to no wayt ot find out what is going on.
        
           | dijit wrote:
           | Yes. It's called "understanding your constraints".
           | 
           | The inverse is "appeal to higher power"; (implication being
           | that its almost religion since it's based on faith).
           | 
           | However: if you think that running large systems is hard,
           | then it follows that it's better to deploy small systems.
           | 
           | There can be times to outsource for sure, and I'm being
           | relatively glib: but this idea of rent vs own is quite
           | pervasive in the industry and it leads to dangerous
           | situations where entire companies grind to a halt because
           | these trade offs were talked down.
           | 
           | Regardless of that; understanding the trade offs is
           | important, the famous "your nines are not my nines" is good
           | to reference here:
           | https://rachelbythebay.com/w/2019/07/15/giant/
        
           | viraptor wrote:
           | Not sure about the name, but there are reasons to expect more
           | reliability. You're only handling your traffic, not all the
           | customers at once. You don't need to scale/distribute that
           | far. And you can predict the traffic/storage needs better. In
           | SaaS case someone does it for you, but it's a much bigger
           | problem and they care less about you (as a single customer id
           | 37826) than you do.
        
             | misnome wrote:
             | And you can either stick with the same version/featureset,
             | or time upgrade outages to periods when you know your
             | operations won't be impacted.
        
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