[HN Gopher] Why Japan's rail workers can't stop pointing at thin...
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Why Japan's rail workers can't stop pointing at things (2017)
Author : tosh
Score : 76 points
Date : 2022-05-05 17:11 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.atlasobscura.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.atlasobscura.com)
| tomatowurst wrote:
| This article is laughable, coming from someone who has lived in
| Japan, there are lot of superficial processes and forms that the
| society knows is useless but individuals are powerless to stop
| it, for instance the idea that coordinated hand eye movement of
| pointing is contributing to safety, situational awareness (one
| rail worker was caught playing mobile games and that's just one),
| its more of a top to bottom bureaucrat culture and thinking. Ton
| of rail systems/workers outside Japan have impeccable track
| record too without the stupid pointing gestures.
|
| Japan's strength comes from following the rule to the letter but
| it also comes with the ridiculous overheads that puts downward
| pressure on productivity.
|
| I'm sure some westerner will gawk at anything novel, for instance
| the usage of fax machine and the claim that its secure from
| vulnerabilities. Yes, paper can't get hacked but the overall
| disadvantage slows down Japan Inc., and its entering now the 40th
| year of stagnation and unlikely to improve going forward. In
| fact, it's already being outclassed by its neighbors who adopted
| bandwidth and digitization at the turn of the millennia.
|
| This article has absolutely no merit whatsoever, the same
| attitude can be applied to Japan's worse problems like ijime
| culture over the slightest things.
| avs733 wrote:
| The general term is 'pointing and calling' and it is actually
| used worldwide[0]
|
| As with many things, the action is not designed to eliminate
| abject non participation but to deal with 'unthinking errors'
| like wrong site surgeries or taking off without clearance. This
| article may strike you as gawking but the principle is sound.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_and_calling#:~:text=
| I....
| worik wrote:
| > This article has absolutely no merit whatsoever, the same
| attitude can be applied to Japan's worse problems like ijime
| culture over the slightest things.
|
| You assert.
|
| Other commentators here describe that they use this system
| (some invent it for themselves)
|
| Why do you think:
|
| > Japan's strength comes from following the rule to the letter
| but it also comes with the ridiculous overheads that puts
| downward pressure on productivity.
|
| Any reasons?
| xaedes wrote:
| This is a great technique to enhance focus and spot details.
| After I read about it the first time I thought that must also
| work for other things. Since then, during particularly hard
| sessions of of debugging or (code) reading, I use it to
| physically point at code/text. Sometimes with both hands. It
| forces me to actually pay attention to the thing I point at. In
| this way it also helps spotting tokens that would otherwise be
| skipped, like the double "of" in the third sentence of this
| comment. Physically following some data, control or logic flow by
| tracing it out can also help to avoid losing the proverbial
| "thread".
| ed_elliott_asc wrote:
| I write or draw it out
| ddlatham wrote:
| I use this to find a jar in the refrigerator that I know is
| there somewhere, but somehow I cannot see unless I actually
| point at each item, one at a time.
| bennysomething wrote:
| Me too, how strange! I do something very similar, except I
| look from underneath each shelf as then I can see items that
| are behind bigger items.
| metanoia wrote:
| I definitely point and call to myself when doing deploys and
| running DB migration scripts... just to make sure I'm not
| changing production when I don't mean to.
| avs733 wrote:
| I've personally added 'say it out loud' (read or state the
| decision in a logic flow) loudly and clearly.
|
| another argument against open offices I guess.
| Acen wrote:
| I've used something similar to this pointing technique when
| mixing live sound for bands I'm not familiar with.
|
| Standing somewhere in the audience space and listening for &
| looking at each person on stage individually to ensure they're
| part of the mix.
|
| Maybe I should implement something physical. Though pointing at
| the band would usually make them stop and ask what I'm needing
| bloomingeek wrote:
| I operate large chillers and high pressure boilers in two
| different plants. I started my own point system, as my company
| doesn't have one. I also count different valves which I have
| memorized so as to be extra safe. When there's a power failure
| and I have to bring everything back online, my system is very
| helpful.
| TheHideout wrote:
| Point-Shoot-Operate, this is the same method we use when
| operating submarine nuclear power plants. Years later I still do
| it when doing anything hazardous.
| aftbit wrote:
| Do you have any reference material for this? A quick Google
| search for "Point-Shoot-Operate" finds nothing. Very
| fascinating to see this used in the USN!
| Nerks234 wrote:
| The book 'Turn this ship around' by L. David Marquet goes
| into a little bit of detail about this technique and also
| about managing a nuclear submarine more generally. Great
| leadership reference!
| themodelplumber wrote:
| It's a good psychological operation for anything that requires
| a bit of extra care. If you're having a stressful day in
| general it can help to call off your next steps and ensure
| supportive/guidance structure for your day is available.
|
| (In terms of vehicles, I like to use it when my caffeine is
| coming up to speed on a long road trip starting in the early am
| in the desert, when passengers have just fallen back asleep)
| Tade0 wrote:
| On the rare occasion that I have to fill out a paper form, I
| read it aloud.
|
| Saved me from starting from scratch due to a minor error at
| least a few times.
| nrook wrote:
| As mentioned in the article, this technique is used in New York
| City's subways, too. I have a lot of problems with the MTA, but
| they're still stellar by American standards.
| fjni wrote:
| Yosef Lerner and Rose Sacktor made a very funny video taking
| advantage of that:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9jIsxQNz0M
| tootie wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_and_calling
|
| It's mentioned in the article, but NYC subway conductors do this
| too. There's a black and white striped board that indicates where
| the conductor's window should line up on the platform and they
| always point to it when stopping at a station.
| slaymaker1907 wrote:
| This can also work great with production system management of
| software. Any data you need for decision making/verification
| should be captured via screenshot/copying data (Word is great for
| this); and before you do any action, you say what you are going
| to do (or write out the terminal command) so that a buddy can
| verify what you are doing.
| jonshariat wrote:
| This has already made HN front page twice:
| https://hn.algolia.com/?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.atlasobscura.com...
|
| Also tosh seems to post many new stories to HN every day. Seems
| like spam?
| rtkwe wrote:
| Once a year isn't bad as reposts go. You get turn over or
| people that missed it the previous times or there's new
| conversations around it.
| munk-a wrote:
| I thoroughly enjoyed the article and hadn't seen it before. At
| the end of the day that seems like a good enough reason for it
| to be posted.
|
| We do have a flagging system for deserving content, and
| articles will only reach the front page through user upvoting.
| If you suspect the user is falsely promoting their content
| using bot upvotes to farm karma you can contact a mod but
| otherwise I assume tosh is just curating things folks find
| interesting.
| dymk wrote:
| 411 submissions in the last 30 days, no kidding!
|
| The posts don't seem excessively low quality at first glance -
| indeed a lot of the submissions get at least some discussion /
| votes. But it does seem like the kind of content that's simply
| copy/pasted from maybe other aggregators, or selected from
| previously submitted HN content.
|
| The account is 12 years old, so I'd expect it would have been
| booted by the mods at this point if it was undesirable.
|
| tosh, is your posting automated?
| tosh wrote:
| I'm currently on vacation.
|
| It is not automated but I concede that hn might have become
| an excessive hobby over time (wait until you see the log of
| articles I don't submit though! so there is also some
| curation on my side).
|
| It basically is as simple as: I stumble over something
| interesting, thinking one thing that would be even better
| than this is a whole discussion about it, submit, crickets or
| discussion actually happens.
|
| edit: many (most?) submissions (like this one for example
| [0]) are actually based on something I read on hn so there is
| some tree traversal and recursion going on as well now that I
| think of it.
|
| [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31272682 (h/t
| drewzero1)
| l33tbro wrote:
| I took a vacation last year and purposely didn't look at
| anything online apart from checking work email
| occasionally. It was so beneficial and it made me feel like
| I was coming back to somewhere I hadn't been in a while.
|
| If you're interested, I'd definitely recommend taking some
| time to step away from browsing all day.
| jonshariat wrote:
| np just had spam signs
|
| - Lots of links in bio
|
| - High frequency of posts
|
| - Reposting popular content
|
| Hope you have a good vacation!
| drewzero1 wrote:
| This idea was mentioned (and the article linked) in a
| comment[0] in another thread earlier today, so I'm not
| surprised to see it posted. My charitable explanation is that
| OP saw the comment and thought the article deserved its own
| post/discussion.
|
| [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31272682
| tosh wrote:
| That's why I submitted it! I was just searching for the
| comment but couldn't find it.
| Thorrez wrote:
| Another related URL is
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poka-yoke
|
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
| cjrp wrote:
| It would be an apt username, given that tosh is British-slang
| for rubbish.
| pcurve wrote:
| I wonder what goes into deciding what to point. For example, if
| you watch this clip, you can see the conductor doing 300km
| pointing at different parts... https://youtu.be/lB4_G9l3mdY?t=158
|
| But I can't quite figure out what.
| themodelplumber wrote:
| IIRC they monitor arrival and departure at various levels and
| times. Speed levels, braking, location @ time, etc. In the
| video she says "yosh" / "yoshi" after each which is like "(X)
| is good"
| innocenat wrote:
| What I can identified in the video:
|
| - point at speedometer to confirm current speed
|
| - point at master control (acceleration control) to confirm
| zero (likely during dead sections)
|
| - point at clock and timetable to confirm arrival/passing time
|
| The painting at the end is likely to confirm activation of
| auto-breaking of ATC train control system.
| wwilim wrote:
| I do that in order not to forget whether I've switched the light
| off in my storage room in the condo before locking it. If I don't
| do it, I get doubts halfway up the stairs and I have to come back
| to unlock it and check again.
|
| Another thing I use it for is packing critical items such as
| diabetes medications for a vacation.
| kstrauser wrote:
| I have a "Going to..." template that I copy for every trip, and
| I check off each item or action as I've packed or done them.
| It's a huge stress reliever.
| barefeg wrote:
| I always wondered how pilots, while doing checklists, don't
| forget to actually check the thing before saying check, given
| that they repeat this task many times. I can't recall exactly but
| there was an accident where the checks were said without actually
| checking the instruments. I'm guessing using the point method
| could help with that
| storyinmemo wrote:
| Flight instructor here and I've totally adopted teaching that.
| Touch or point because it does happen where you reflexively say
| something like, "Gear, Down"" and... it's bad if you're wrong.
|
| Airlines (which I don't have personal experience with) do it
| with a two person cross check.
| unionemployee wrote:
| Airline pilot here. We point.
| deepspace wrote:
| They sometimes don't. A Malaysia Airlines A330 took off from
| Brisbane with the pitot tube covers still on, resulting in no
| working airspeed indication. Several people missed the covers,
| despite ostensibly specifically checking for them.
|
| https://simpleflying.com/pitot-probe-covers-remain-in-place-...
| dalmo3 wrote:
| It's interesting to see this done as a deliberate procedure. I
| thought everyone did that almost instinctively, as if telling
| themselves "OK, focus". I certainly do it, except for the
| vocalising.
|
| Even just doing a generic pointing gesture at nothing when trying
| to think through something unrelated to the physical world.
|
| I wonder if those trained to do it deliberately are trained to
| use the right hand regardless of their natural preference, since
| the left side of the brain is more associated with focus and
| logical thinking.
| qwezxcrty wrote:
| Such techniques are also implemented in Chinese national rail and
| virtually every subway system (which is now arguably the most
| complex on the world albeit suffering from under-educated
| employees). It certainly have some merits.
|
| I also personally feel it's useful for some repeative but
| critically important tasks. Now I have the habit of pointing at
| the all the lasers/amplifiers while checking them are off before
| leaving my lab.
| dang wrote:
| Pointing to past things:
|
| _Why Japan's rail workers point at things (2017)_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22922277 - April 2020 (87
| comments)
|
| _Japan 's Rail Workers Pointing at Things (2017)_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18952193 - Jan 2019 (107
| comments)
|
| _Why Japan's Rail Workers Can't Stop Pointing at Things_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17552388 - July 2018 (1
| comment)
|
| _Why Japan's Rail Workers Point at Things_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14011793 - April 2017 (322
| comments)
| trelane wrote:
| This post is on point.
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