[HN Gopher] The future will have to wait (2006)
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       The future will have to wait (2006)
        
       Author : laurex
       Score  : 84 points
       Date   : 2022-05-04 03:26 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (longnow.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (longnow.org)
        
       | djokkataja wrote:
       | > If you don't believe in the Future, unreservedly and
       | dreamingly, if you aren't willing to bet that somebody will be
       | there to cry when the Clock finally, ten thousand years from now,
       | runs down, then I don't see how you can have children. If you
       | have children, I don't see how you can fail to do everything in
       | your power to ensure that you win your bet, and that they, and
       | their grandchildren, and their grandchildren's grandchildren,
       | will inherit a world whose perfection can never be accomplished
       | by creatures whose imagination for perfecting it is limitless and
       | free. And I don't see how anybody can force me to pay up on my
       | bet if I turn out, in the end, to be wrong.
       | 
       | We didn't stay dead.
       | 
       | We were supposed to. That was what I had learned, anyway. Short
       | of magic, nothing was going to resurrect us after we died.
       | 
       | "You're not dead anymore, Mike."
       | 
       | That was the first thing I heard when I was Reawakened. I'd tell
       | you about how I felt all kinds of astonishing tingly sensations
       | and sat up in dazed wonder at the glorious euphoria of my shiny
       | new bionic body, but who hasn't experienced that and heard about
       | it and talked about it a million times already?
       | 
       | No, what was interesting was that I came from a generation that
       | was supposed to stay dead. Before my generation, most people had
       | religious beliefs of one kind or another whereby they would
       | magically be resurrected, with their status afterward depending
       | on various criteria. But my generation had learned that all that
       | religious stuff was nonsense, unscientific magical thinking, so
       | we were just going to stay dead.
       | 
       | "I'm pretty sure that I'm _supposed_ to be dead, " I asserted,
       | looking suspiciously at the disappointingly stereotypically
       | futuristically beautiful and androgynous figure before me. "Thus
       | I can only conclude that the experience of my demise was a
       | terribly convincing deception."
       | 
       | "Mike, I'm a doctor, not a simulation engineer," the figure said.
       | "But you've hit the nail on the head. The experience of your life
       | until now was a computationally rendered projection, a terribly
       | convincing deception. You're likely not precisely the same person
       | as the version of you that died in reality, but that Mike
       | wouldn't have been precisely the same as the Mike the day before
       | anyway. What matters is that you and your experiences are as
       | close to those of the Mike who died in reality as everything and
       | everyone can tell us. You're a full person now, full societal
       | presence, participation and rights same as me and everyone else.
       | We do not discriminate between people with simulated experiences
       | and people with real-universe experiences. That would be
       | unscientific magical thinking. It's the same basic hardware
       | architecture for you and me, see," they tapped knuckles to the
       | side of their head lightly. "The people you knew were simulated
       | just as you were, and when they die in that simulation of the
       | past, you'll get to meet them again, too."
       | 
       | This was obviously too good to be true. "What's the catch?"
       | 
       | "You're alive again."
       | 
       | "Damn. No, but really."
       | 
       | "You're _alive_ again, Mike. This ain 't heaven, it's more
       | living. And you're not gonna just keel over and die like last
       | time. This new body's more than slightly better put together, and
       | we're more than slightly better at cheating death than we used to
       | be. So the catch is no one waltzes away from consequences via old
       | age anymore. Aaand society and people may have changed from what
       | you're used to. A bit."
       | 
       | My shiny new balls tingled, alert to the mistruthing in that last
       | "A bit." I paused, taking it all in. "So why are you here with
       | that expectant look on your face?"
       | 
       | "Well, Mike. Ten thousand years ago you made a bet. And there's
       | this clock running down, see, and nobody's crying."
        
       | tveita wrote:
       | The zeitgeist is one of clinical depression; Negative outcomes
       | are taken for granted, every action to improve the situation is
       | futile, and fatigue and paralysis sets in.
       | 
       | We might expect the fashion to turn from activism to nihilism and
       | then hedonism. But as the pendulum swings again we could again
       | see increased sense of responsibility, maybe with a twist like
       | the return of small communities instead of global connections,
       | carving out a future for yourself and your loved ones.
       | 
       | Who knows, the motions of the pendulum are chaotic and always
       | reactionary.
        
         | kardianos wrote:
         | I don't strictly disagree with you, but I dislike the pendulum
         | model for the same reason I dislike modeling history/future as
         | linear. Society can regress, it can progress, it can do both in
         | different areas. It can be reactionary, but it can also way too
         | far for a hundred or more years. Maoist China was not by itself
         | reactionary or linear, but a totaling force. The Dang era that
         | followed changed some essential aspects, but even that has been
         | reversing under Xe.
         | 
         | Each component in life must be modeled by itself. Societies can
         | and have destroyed themselves. There are real better and worse
         | ways of living.
        
         | nonrandomstring wrote:
         | You may well be right, but as an optimist I look hard for other
         | explanations regarding our collective psychology.
         | 
         | Depression is not the same as frustration. And self limitation
         | is not the same as confinement. The latter allow more for
         | overcoming, whereas depresssion can be an inescapable
         | existential state for Kirkegaardian reasons.
         | 
         | As discussed in another thread today, on the rise of mental
         | illness connected to technology [1], there is a sense of
         | societal trauma. So many wars, recessions, pandemics and
         | tragedies flow like water under the bridge, never giving us
         | time to grieve, reflect or learn. We are, as Nietzsche said,
         | forever tumbling, "plunging continually" into a future, with
         | nothing to grab hold of [2].
         | 
         | Some years ago I gave a talk at Goldsmiths University in London
         | at a conference "Against the Slow Cancellation of the Future"
         | [3] on the role of technology in paradoxically limiting
         | available futures.
         | 
         | David Graeber and Peter Thiel [4] had more or less the same
         | debate we had at Goldsmiths. Inevitably the much maligned
         | Fukuyama, simplified into a sound-bite about the "End of
         | History" [5] is brought out for a whipping. Part of the issue
         | _is_ the transformed role of capital as a closure around
         | possibility, rather than an enabler of radical possibility. But
         | that 's not limited to Capital(ism) as such. Indeed, one
         | possibly apocryphal story was the Chinese CCP banning stories
         | about time travel and alternative futures.
         | 
         | [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31268222
         | 
         | [2] Friedrich Nietzsche, "The Parable of the Madman" (1882)
         | http://historyguide.org/europe/madman.html
         | 
         | [3]
         | https://networks.h-net.org/node/73374/announcements/178054/a...
         | 
         | [4] https://thebaffler.com/latest/graeber-thiel
         | 
         | [5]
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_History_and_the_Las...
        
       | dzdt wrote:
       | As an American, it seems too me that our country is at an end of
       | a long upwards arc of scocial progress. While technological
       | progress continues, it isn't clear that progress will be good for
       | humanity. Global warming looms as an immense threat but without
       | any meaningful response. As a nonbeliever religion offers no
       | solace, but even believers tend towards welcoming the "end times"
       | rather than non-apocolytpic comfort. Political power of
       | individuals is infintesimal and shrinking, as money interests and
       | gerrymandering remove any remaining impact of our voices on the
       | process.
        
         | dqpb wrote:
         | I think we're living in the most exciting time in the history
         | of the universe.
         | 
         | Our resource consumption is on trajectory to result in global
         | civilization collapse around 2040:
         | https://www.vice.com/amp/en/article/z3xw3x/new-research-vind...
         | 
         | On the other hand, Juergen Schmidhuber (and Eric Schmidt, and
         | Ray Kurzweil) predicts the "Omega point" of technological
         | development (including AGI) to be around 2040:
         | https://youtu.be/pGftUCTqaGg
         | 
         | This race between progress and destruction was destined to
         | happen and it culminates in our lifetime.
        
           | faitswulff wrote:
           | Kurzweil's predictions haven't been very reliable IIRC.
        
       | bregma wrote:
       | When I was a kid growing up in the 1960s and 1970 it was in the
       | shadow of The Bomb and we all expected to be dead within a few
       | years. That affects your thinking.
       | 
       | Our parents' and grandparents' generations were the people that
       | wrecked the world with their European/Asian/Pacific wars and
       | their plastics and their nucleotides and their freeways and their
       | pesticides and their phosphates and acid rain and their racism
       | and sexism and chauvinism. Rounding up their own children to send
       | them to almost certain death in a foreign land to score brownie
       | points at the country club. Still, we had hope for the future: we
       | could put white men on the moon, we could eradicate many of the
       | more common transmissible causes of death, we could feed the
       | world at least in theory. Then came the Boomers who would change
       | everything with their peace, love, and free thinking. That was
       | reflected in the (non-commercial) music and writing of the time.
       | Then they discovered money and how it could benefit them
       | personally.
       | 
       | Now I listen to the music and every other song seems to be about
       | the medication they've been given is not enough, or how angry
       | they are about what they've been given. The books seems to all be
       | dystopian. The zeitgeist has gone from "Eat drink and be merry
       | for tomorrow we may die" to "Starve yourself we're going to die."
       | 
       | Hey folks, the future is what you make it. Don't expect anything
       | to handed to you.
        
         | tenebrisalietum wrote:
         | When all you have and all that surrounds you is garbage, and
         | the future is what you make it, the future is probably going to
         | be garbage.
        
           | sebastos wrote:
           | That's exactly the kind of fatalistic attitude that's being
           | criticized here though. If you can recognize that you're
           | surrounded by garbage, you can decide that you want things to
           | be different. If you decide you want things to be different,
           | you can potentially inspire other people to feel the same
           | way.
           | 
           | If the current environment just dictated the future one,
           | there would be never be any change in our culture. In my
           | opinion you are underestimating how voraciously we humans get
           | sick of <current thing> and seek out something new.
        
         | marssaxman wrote:
         | > Hey folks, the future is what you make it. Don't expect
         | anything to handed to you.
         | 
         | Expecting that you will be able to make anything particular of
         | the future is also a mistake. The future is mostly just
         | something that happens to you, no matter how hard you may work
         | to shape it.
        
       | kardianos wrote:
       | > It's only the world a hundred years on that leaves his hopes a
       | blank. My son seems to take the end of everything, of all human
       | endeavor and creation, for granted.
       | 
       | This is so sad. It is the purposeful breakdown of obligation and
       | responsibility. After all "Entitlement will thrive where there is
       | a lack of obligation." And entitlement is the antithesis of
       | responsibility.
       | 
       | > If you don't believe in the Future, unreservedly and
       | dreamingly, if you aren't willing to bet that somebody will be
       | there to cry when the Clock finally, ten thousand years from now,
       | runs down, then I don't see how you can have children. If you
       | have children, I don't see how you can fail to do everything in
       | your power to ensure that you win your bet, and that they, and
       | their grandchildren, and their grandchildren's grandchildren,
       | will inherit a world whose perfection can never be accomplished
       | by creatures whose imagination for perfecting it is limitless and
       | free.
       | 
       | This is the correct response that correctly recognizes each
       | person's personal responsibility and societal obligation.
       | 
       | We have a future should we choose it.
       | 
       | Keep your children away from death cults who would say otherwise.
        
         | mempko wrote:
         | I think what we are finding out quickly is the true death cults
         | are those that think we have a future if we keep doing what
         | we're doing.
        
           | kardianos wrote:
           | I don't object to reasoned change.
           | 
           | I don't object to warning about dangers of continuing a
           | current trajectory.
           | 
           | I object to putting ideology over naturalistic reasoning.
           | 
           | I object to not having kids or telling kids they don't have a
           | future.
        
             | mempko wrote:
             | I have kids. I tell them they have a future. They have no
             | responsibility to change what is happening, we do. What's
             | horrible is people telling them they have a future but
             | doing everything possible to destroy it. Think the
             | Republican party for example, they are 100% climate
             | denialists who place ideology ahead of reality.
        
             | selfhoster11 wrote:
             | If nothing changes, they won't have a future. It's that
             | simple.
        
               | kardianos wrote:
               | I believe we have the capacity to live on Mars and even
               | eventually the Moon. The Earth is still much more
               | hospitable then either of those. We have proven oil
               | reserves that will last 100 more years. So lets
               | transition to electric and nuclear before then.
               | 
               | Also, be careful of Marxians and other Ideologues who
               | would look for any excuse to tear society down so they
               | can try their social experiments again. Be that class,
               | identity, or climate. Solutions, yes. Tear everything
               | down because it isn't perfect, no.
        
               | selfhoster11 wrote:
               | OK, great. But if we stick to oil for those 100 years,
               | we'll continue killing planetary biodiversity, which will
               | cause unknown knock-on effects that will make it hard to
               | grow food the normal way, even if we're only looking at
               | effects on humans. Is that really a good way to live?
               | 
               | Saying that the current situation is imperfect is like
               | saying that jumping off a bridge puts you in a situation
               | that isn't ideal. We need to pull our collective heads
               | out of our collective asses and start investing in
               | alternative energy sources - now, not in 10 or 20 or 50
               | years.
        
               | germinalphrase wrote:
               | My gut feeling is that the science/tech side of this is
               | mature and becoming more so all the time.
               | 
               | Our true cultural failure is articulating specific,
               | accessible, and _optimistic_ visions for what the future
               | could actually look like. Our current teenagers and young
               | adults came up in a time period where dystopian stories
               | were prominent. Maybe we need to see a prominent success
               | of an optimistic worldview.
               | 
               | People won't fight for an idea they can't imagine.
        
               | beauzero wrote:
               | We need to start investing in alternative energy because
               | coal and oil are a very efficient energy vault. That
               | vault gave us an easy leg up through energy
               | manipulation/controlled release at a scale that is easy
               | for humans to use. Fusion, solar, fission, etc. are all
               | jumpstarted through this stored vault. Without it it is
               | difficult to get materials built to even jumpstart us
               | through the current knowledge base/technology chain. We
               | will have to revisit a lot of technology if we don't use
               | the next 100 years to step to another century or even
               | millennium technology/energy chain.
               | 
               | e.g It is difficult to burn enough trees to extract
               | enough electricity to mine and refine resources needed to
               | build solar panels or even build wire for transport.
        
               | mempko wrote:
               | Actually we only have proven reserves at the current rate
               | of consumption for 47 years. USA has only reserves for 5
               | years. The bet is that oil companies keep finding new
               | reserves, but that's not looking well. Rate of finding
               | oil reserves is something like 8 billion barrels a year
               | but we use 30+ billion. And if we keep burning that oil
               | past 2040 at our current rate, the climate could lead to
               | the extinction of all life including human life.
        
             | cercatrova wrote:
             | > _I object to not having kids_
             | 
             | You may not, but everyone chooses differently. It's not
             | unreasonable to not want children, they do take resources
             | to take care of after all, resources that could be better
             | used elsewhere.
        
         | ekianjo wrote:
         | > My son seems to take the end of everything, of all human
         | endeavor and creation, for granted.
         | 
         | That's called education failure.
        
           | coldtea wrote:
           | It's also parroting what he hears from around him.
           | 
           | It's not like his 8 year old had some unique insights and
           | gave much thought to the situation.
           | 
           | It's 99% imitation speach - like the faux-tweets and messages
           | from kids parroting what their parents think (often with
           | adult-like word choices, speech patterns, and everything).
        
         | pjc50 wrote:
         | > We have a future should we choose it.
         | 
         | As in the old Tonto/Lone Ranger joke, who do you mean by "we"?
         | 
         | The Ukranian crisis reminds us that a particular disease of
         | power is that it collapses to "I". It is possible that the man
         | with the power decides there should be no future for you.
         | 
         | > Keep your children away from death cults who would say
         | otherwise.
         | 
         | Who do you have in mind here?
        
           | kardianos wrote:
           | > Who do you have in mind here?
           | 
           | Ideologies that see castrating yourself or you children as a
           | moral good.
           | 
           | Ideologies that see humans as a parasite upon the earth,
           | where our best option is our own destruction.
           | 
           | Ideologies that see humans as being naturally good, and when
           | confronted with evil, do not confront the possibility of evil
           | in themselves, on in others.
        
             | mkr-hn wrote:
             | >> _" Ideologies that see castrating yourself or you
             | children as a moral good."_
             | 
             | Can you expand on this? I've never heard of that one. I
             | know some people confuse accepting and affirming trans
             | people with this because they've been given twisted ideas
             | about what acceptance means and what happens from media
             | grifters, but I charitably assume that's not what you mean
             | here.
        
               | pcmaffey wrote:
               | Circumcision.
        
               | notriddle wrote:
               | Circumcised people aren't castrated. Castration makes you
               | infertile. Circumcision doesn't.
               | 
               | (Infant circumcision is morally wrong, because it is a
               | medically unnecessary surgery done without consent, but
               | it doesn't make you infertile.)
        
               | germinalphrase wrote:
               | I suspect it is more along the lines of "it's immoral to
               | have children when you're only birthing them to suffer
               | due to [insert existential fear]".
        
         | beepbooptheory wrote:
         | I think it's natural for older people to react with dismay when
         | confronted with a younger person's pessimism about the future,
         | but to say that it is failure of obligation or responsibility
         | is seriously misunderstanding, even willfully, the kids
         | thoughts on this. The situation is, in fact, quite reversed!
         | Consider a child who is more pessimistic about the future than
         | their parent at the same age, why is that? You could hand-wave
         | it away, as people tend to do here, and say its a problem of
         | education, or they have been brainwashed, but no one seems to
         | consider just how much intellectual autonomy or rationality you
         | are denying the kid to have, you are choosing to simply deny
         | flat out any basis for the kids pessimism.
         | 
         | You could also conclude that, in fact, the world is worse for
         | the kid then it was for the parent, which I believe is occams
         | razor here, and what else is that but the failure of the
         | generations before? You can blame the apps, but you made the
         | apps (quite literally around here); you could blame the
         | schools, but who was responsible for the character of education
         | in a country but the voting generations of the past? But
         | instead, everyone would rather just doubt children, or say they
         | are lazy!
         | 
         | We _inherit_ the world we are born into, yes, but there is no
         | sense or ground to the world, it is flying blind. Older people
         | are saddened by deep pessimism of younger people, because deep
         | down, it is nothing more than an indictment of the world they
         | have left the kids, and it hurts to reckon with that, so this
         | thought rarely passes into consciousness, happy to be deflected
         | onto presumptions about the kid 's responsibility.
         | 
         | It's sad to not have a _shared_ future between generations, but
         | like in the article, we need to take seriously the irreality of
         | the Future. At the end of the day, kids do not like _your_
         | future, the future you have left for them. The trajectory of
         | the world as it stands.
         | 
         | To me, it is heartening that kids, maybe not yet with a sense
         | of agency, manifest profound pessimism, because it is correctly
         | identifying a problem in the grandest, most existential sense:
         | the narrative of history we have been operating on for a long
         | time. Profound pessimism is a seed that can grow into powerful
         | critiques about the most unsaid and damaging assumptions of our
         | time.
         | 
         | If you are so angry that kids would dare question the longevity
         | of the world they find themselves in, you are saying something
         | more about yourself. You take it personally, because deep down
         | you know they have inherited, in part, your own failures.
        
           | kardianos wrote:
           | Yes, you describe a failure of obligation quite well.
        
             | beepbooptheory wrote:
             | Perhaps, but I don't see how my point still stands. If
             | individual responsibility and obligation are the things
             | that make the difference, then by that logic, the
             | responsibility and obligation of generations before have
             | created a world that has instilled kids with the sentiment
             | they have. Like... when you say this, who are you blaming?
             | Who _is_ to blame?
             | 
             | You can say something like "Well, in fact, the world is
             | doing fine, we are progressing, it is all just appearance,
             | it is an epistemological problem for these kids,
             | brainwashing"; and you might cite some NGO report about
             | decreasing world hunger or the happiness index, or
             | whatever, and say "these kids have nothing to complain
             | about". I see this argument a lot. But I would just ask,
             | OK, if thats true, it simply shifts the problem. If it is
             | just about the kids perceptions, and their dwindling sense
             | of obligation in response to that, we can still ask: why
             | are they being misled in this way? Why do they feel selfish
             | entitlement instead responsible obligation? Surely it is
             | something about the world they find themselves in, the
             | world inherited from their parents. I don't know who else
             | you can blame. You spent many decades voting, consuming,
             | building the apps, creating the culture that kids find
             | themselves in, the very same one where they arrive at the
             | sentiments they do. It is still on you!
             | 
             | You could also accept my initial conclusion and say: "yes
             | the world is worse then when I was a kid, but it isn't _my_
             | fault. " But then, that troubles the conceit that
             | individual obligation/responsibility is the operating
             | variable there. And really, you are just hold the same
             | pessimism as the kid, but through the filter of a lived
             | life grasping for purpose. You are asking the kid to have
             | more faith than yourself!
             | 
             | At the end of the day, a life might just be a lesson in
             | having faith in progress, but that is less a value to
             | impose, less something to punish the kid for not realizing,
             | as it is something we all must come to.
             | 
             | To blame the kids is just not logical. Even if it turns out
             | that the flouride in the water or whatever has caused this
             | rash of irresponsibility in young people, that is still on
             | the generations before them for putting it in the water! If
             | its not on the generations before, if it was going to
             | happen no matter what, then that is just reason to throw
             | out the idea the kids lack anything at all, that something
             | about their sentiments are _their_ fault.
             | 
             | So, either you are guilty (as presumably an older person),
             | or you need to cut the kids some slack.
        
       | CipherThrowaway wrote:
       | Older people bemoaning the pessimism, fatalism and short-termism
       | of the younger generations really ought to try engaging younger
       | people in meaningful dialog and attempting to understand their
       | points of view. Younger people are interested in the future and
       | they are passionate about tackling emerging global problems.
       | Market research shows gen Z place a huge emphasis on
       | sustainability for example.
       | 
       | Personally I don't think the Jetsons, Star Trek and other sci-fi
       | fantasies and space operas were really about the future at all.
       | They were reflections of a contemporary culture of blind techno-
       | utopian optimism which was disconnected from the _actual_ future
       | and was perhaps quite detrimental to it. The false image of the
       | future lives on in e.g. techno-elite fantasies of colonizing Mars
       | instead of solving our problems here on Earth. Younger genres
       | like Solarpunk feel much more connected to humanity 's future
       | than these older sci-fi tropes ever did.
        
         | germinalphrase wrote:
         | Right now, Solarpunk feels more like an aesthetic than a genre.
         | It also seems to be getting bogged down in political cruft
         | around what it means to be "punk".
         | 
         | Edit: I'd love to hear why I'm wrong. Are there prominent
         | Solarpunk authors I'm not aware of?
        
         | mkr-hn wrote:
         | I think this is why I liked DS9 so much more than TNG or
         | Voyager. It put less of a fourth wall between the conflict on
         | the screen and the real-world conflicts it tried to map to, and
         | it handled them without cynicism or easy, unrealistic
         | solutions. When a chunk of the station got blown off, you saw
         | people working on it in the opening of the next episode.
         | Conflicts weren't always solved with a good speech.
         | 
         |  _Q finally got his ass kicked._ Sometimes the only way through
         | is to punch a god.
        
           | goatlover wrote:
           | > Sometimes the only way through is to punch a god.
           | 
           | Duarte tries that in The Expanse and it doesn't go so well.
        
             | mkr-hn wrote:
             | I've only seen the show where the gate builders and their
             | enemy are still, and forever, a mystery. I don't think even
             | Holden knows that much, but he at least has the good sense
             | to not anger them. Q is more like a bored puppy.
        
         | kardianos wrote:
         | You sound like a teenager "You don't understand me! You're too
         | old!"
         | 
         | Or, we've been there, and have a different perspective after
         | having walked through it.
         | 
         | Solarpunk isn't new. It strongly reminds me of the 1960 to
         | early 1970s graphics.
         | 
         | And yes, StarWars is an opera. Also, opera can be fun.
        
           | CipherThrowaway wrote:
           | >"You don't understand me! You're too old!"
           | 
           | If a younger person said this to me I would find it quite
           | reasonable. As an older person I don't presume to
           | automatically understand the unique problems and
           | circumstances of a different generation from my own. That's
           | why I put effort into engaging younger people in dialogue.
           | What I'm suggesting is that others do the same.
        
         | goatlover wrote:
         | There was the threat of nuclear war during the Cold War,
         | environmental concerns around overpopulation, deforestation and
         | acid rain. And there were dystopian movies like Terminator,
         | Alien and Threads with fears around technology, corporations
         | and world war. Older people did have to deal with the
         | possibility of bad future outcomes. It seems to have been
         | forgotten in the 90s and and the first decade of the 2000s when
         | those issues didn't seem so world ending in the absence of the
         | Cold War and the failure of environmental doom predictions from
         | the 60s though the 80s.
        
           | CipherThrowaway wrote:
           | My point isn't that older generations didn't have problems
           | worth worrying about. It's that younger generations have
           | their own unique problems worth worrying about. I wouldn't
           | expect someone who grew up in the 00s to really understand
           | the Cold War, so why would I expect someone who grew up in
           | the 80s to understand the unique challenges of Generation Z?
           | This is why dialogue is important.
           | 
           | The environmental comparison is very shallow. Climate change
           | is a higher stakes and larger scale environmental issue than
           | we have ever seen and will require radical changes to modern
           | life and modern economies merely to _limit_ the damage.
           | Compare it to a past looming disaster like ozone depletion
           | where the risk was bad sunburns and all we had to do was stop
           | spraying Freon into the air. I remember actually being
           | worried about the ozone layer. Boy does that feel quaint now.
        
         | dotnet00 wrote:
         | I feel like you have cause and effect reversed there.
         | Everything feels like "blind techno-utopian optimism" because
         | you're intentionally blinding yourself to progress and focusing
         | entirely on the negatives.
         | 
         | I think this especially stands out with your example of
         | "techno-elite fantasies of colonizing Mars" as somehow being
         | exclusive from solving problems on Earth, despite both being
         | fairly beneficial to each other.
        
       | Sporktacular wrote:
       | Anyone know the status?
       | 
       | BTW can recommend "The Pattern on the Stone" by Hillis to anyone
       | interested in computer science principles.
        
       | formerkrogemp wrote:
       | The future is now. It's just unevenly distributed.
       | 
       | > When I was a kid growing up in the 1960s and 1970 it was in the
       | shadow of The Bomb and we all expected to be dead within a few
       | years. That affects your thinking.
       | 
       | We have climate change and a demographic cliff now.
        
       | teh_klev wrote:
       | Needs [2006] appended to the title.
        
         | coldtea wrote:
         | Well, the future still has to wait.
        
         | Sporktacular wrote:
         | Or 02006
        
           | Danieru wrote:
           | Hmm, I don't think its an Octal date.
        
             | katabasis wrote:
             | > The Long Now Foundation uses five-digit dates, the extra
             | zero is to solve the deca-millennium bug which will come
             | into effect in about 8,000 years
             | 
             | https://longnow.org/about/
             | 
             | The current year in Long Now parlance would be 02022.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | cheschire wrote:
       | We don't take the time to process and grieve anymore. In the same
       | way that a minor physical act can result in a major physical
       | injury, we can often endure great trauma from seemingly small
       | events. And yet, we have built so many fire hoses ready to bath
       | us in small events, never really knowing or understanding the
       | impact of these minor events on our psyche.
       | 
       | Many people wake up, pick up their phone/tablet and immediately
       | subject their brain to defensive thought patterns. We get to
       | work, now often in what used to be our relaxing space at home,
       | and we have very little social chit chat opportunities to explore
       | our feelings on topics. When our day is done, how do we relax?
       | 
       | - Watching endless streams of depressing media on TV
       | 
       | - Playing games with conflict loops
       | 
       | - Doom scrolling news
       | 
       | - Rapid-fire bite sized thoughts (tiktok, youtube, twitter,
       | imgur, 90% of reddit)
       | 
       | You can't even escape it doing mundane things like going to the
       | store or restaurants anymore. How many places have either news or
       | sports on the media player? That's never ending conflict being
       | sprayed all over you.
       | 
       | What happens when a person is in a never ending defense mode for
       | years? How does the brain change physically? How does the person
       | engage with their children, and then how do those children engage
       | with each other? I've tried to break out of this, and feel like
       | I've made progress. I ignore the news most of the time and try to
       | focus more on long form analysis. I don't inundate myself with
       | current events anymore. And then when I try to talk to people
       | about how much happier I am, I get the worst response: how can
       | you ignore something that might affect you? I tell them well, I
       | have to for my sanity.
       | 
       | A life of perpetual preparation for the zombie apocalypse is not
       | much better than living through the zombie apocalypse.
        
         | DoneWithAllThat wrote:
         | The extent to which the bulk of the comments here illustrate
         | your points is breathtaking. Most of them represent a
         | profoundly dismal and cynical view of both the now and the
         | future, angrily lashing out at their preferred culprits.
        
         | scottLobster wrote:
         | For my family, I prefer the more positive connotation of
         | "building an Ark for the inevitable flood" or the classic "make
         | hay while the sun shines". Both of which can be healthy if done
         | right.
         | 
         | As for the information loops you mention, that's why
         | discernment is now more important than access. But I wouldn't
         | blame media/games/the internet entirely for our perception of
         | the state of the world.
         | 
         | I grew up upper-middle-class in the 90s with all the optimism
         | that came with it, school plays about how great the future is
         | going to be, in 6th grade choir they actually made us sing a
         | really cringe song called "We are the people of the 21st
         | century" basically about how awesome the future is going to be,
         | link if you want a listen (https://www.musick8.com/html/current
         | _tune.php?songorder=5&nu...).
         | 
         | Well fast forward 22 years since I was forced to sing that, and
         | at least here in the US, everything you need to live a middle
         | class life (housing, education, healthcare, even food these
         | days) is substantially, sometimes multiple times more expensive
         | than it used to be, and wage growth has been stagnant.
         | Meanwhile we've lived through several "once in a generation"
         | crises. All of which we were not simply unprepared for, we were
         | explicitly told the opposite was going to happen our whole
         | lives. It wasn't really until the GFC that the facade started
         | to crack.
         | 
         | There will be "a future" for us, but it's not guaranteed
         | positive anymore, particularly on an individual level. I'm in
         | the process of spinning up lifestyle businesses I don't
         | particularly like in addition to my 9-5 so my kids to have what
         | my dad could afford with just his 9-to-5. And I'm one of the
         | lucky ones to even have that possibility.
         | 
         | I'm also sticking close to family, for the time being I'm
         | refusing to move anywhere out of the US NorthEast corridor and
         | surrounding regions. I'm lucky to have largely supportive
         | family, and I'd be foolish to abandon that resource for a job I
         | "might" like better 1000 miles away, especially if things are
         | going to get worse before they get better. A recession is
         | basically baked in at this point, although it's impossible to
         | say exactly when.
         | 
         | Maybe things will get better, but don't bet on it. If there's
         | one thing current events do bear out: Complacency kills.
        
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