[HN Gopher] When I made another Monkey Island
___________________________________________________________________
When I made another Monkey Island
Author : sabas_ge
Score : 418 points
Date : 2022-05-03 10:07 UTC (12 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (grumpygamer.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (grumpygamer.com)
| adamrezich wrote:
| > Roger Ebert had a great quote that I am constantly reminding
| myself of:
|
| > "The muse visits during the act of creation, not before."
|
| I'd never heard this before but this is an amazing quote.
| darkerside wrote:
| Super nostalgic. Where can I play the original and perhaps more
| importantly, the first sequel, which I never actually played?
| jaimebuelta wrote:
| They are available quite cheaply on gog.com
|
| https://www.gog.com/en/games?query=monkey%20island&developer...
|
| They are very good! Obviously the style is out of fashion and
| some puzzles can be a bit frustrating (though not as much as
| old Sierra adventures), but they are amazing games...
| Svip wrote:
| These are the special editions with updated graphics and
| voice acting. Although you can always switch back to the
| original style at any time.
| Sharlin wrote:
| Honestly, I have the special edition and after about ten
| minutes of playing I switched to the original graphics and
| music and didn't really look back. They really have aged
| quite well, even though of course they look much blockier
| on a 24" TFT compared to the original 15"ish CRT
| experience...
| RajT88 wrote:
| Same. I find the minimal graphics and animation leave
| more to your imagination.
|
| Similarly, I prefer my non-talkie adventure games. YMMV.
| k3vinw wrote:
| I bought the special editions of 1 and 2 over the weekend
| with the sole intent of extracting the original game
| files and playing them via scummvm. Didn't even try to
| play the special editions. And getting them working in
| scummvm was as much fun as getting to play the original
| games themselves!
| rob74 wrote:
| I felt the "updated" graphics were quite good too,
| although it showed in some places that the budget wasn't
| as big as for the original game...
| ricardo81 wrote:
| Reminded me of the whole 14"/15" options for cant-even-
| remember which system. Vaguely recall a 17" choice too.
| technovader wrote:
| worth mentioning the music is. ot great in the remastered
| editions
|
| they give you 2 options and neither of them are the
| incredible adlib version of the original
| vanderZwan wrote:
| Which is kinda strange because the "pixel" art of those
| days was never intended to be rendered as blocky pixels,
| but designed to make use of the CRT's softness.
| fps_doug wrote:
| I mean, it was still clearly low-res. CRTs and smaller
| screen sized helped, but you could still see the pixels.
| mromanuk wrote:
| Indeed, you could see the pixels, but that was all it
| was. Advanced games used antialiasing to lessen the
| blocky effect. You only could dream of a future where
| graphics are "paper like" without pixels. At that moment,
| it didn't fill like low-res, at all. 320x200 256 colors
| was the bleeding edge of computer graphics. Later on,
| some games started appearing with 640x480.
| qw wrote:
| That's also why I can't stand some of the modern pixel-
| games. They are too blocky and doesn't work well on
| modern screens. Using blocky graphics is not "retro" at
| all. It's more an artistic impression of how they _think_
| old games looked like.
| mrob wrote:
| Arguably true for the EGA versions (when played on real
| EGA hardware), but the VGA versions used a 320x200
| resolution, which was line-doubled to 320x400, and
| displayed on monitors sharp enough to be usable at
| 640x480. The pixels were obviously blocky.
| tom_ wrote:
| The pixels were very obvious at 320x200 on most late 80s
| CRTs with RGB input! (Standard for PC, very common on
| Amiga and ST.)
| SamBam wrote:
| Can you switch back to the original UI (without the verbs
| menu) as well?
| WorldMaker wrote:
| The Verbs menu taking a third of the screen _is_ the
| original SCUMM UI. The "verb coin" idea didn't come
| along until Full Throttle/Curse of Monkey Island years
| after Secret of Monkey Island and LeChuck's Revenge.
|
| The only tiny "original UI" subtlety in play with Secret
| of Monkey Island was that the floppy version used a text
| inventory menu and the CD version added the inventory
| icons. I can't say I've met anyone that prefers the text
| inventory over the icons.
| hadjian wrote:
| Maybe here:
|
| https://archive.org/details/mnkyega
| rjh29 wrote:
| The second game is really good. I think it's a lot funnier than
| the first and has more colourful areas and dialogue (although
| some puzzles are ridiculous).
| foldr wrote:
| I also see Monkey 2 as by far the superior game. The first is
| excellent and charming, but the second is a great work of
| literature. (I played Monkey 2 first though, so I'm
| inherently biased.)
| rob74 wrote:
| Well, I played the first one first, and I liked that one
| better. Especially once you get to Monkey Island, it's one
| gag after the other: the three-headed monkey, the head of
| the navigator (which you trade in for a leaflet called "how
| to get ahead in navigating"), ShishKeBob and his pals
| ShishKeJoe and ShishKeLarry, ...
| k__ wrote:
| I played the LeChuck's Revenge first and later tried the first
| one. It didn't have quite the impact.
|
| Also, I replayed the games like 10 years ago and found them
| very short and the humor being quite outdated. A bit like
| watching all the Star Wars movies in one go. The pacing in the
| first triology is pretty crappy.
| nottorp wrote:
| > The pacing in the first triology is pretty crappy.
|
| At least the first trilogy had some pacing.
| tluyben2 wrote:
| You should really play them both; I have the remastered
| versions on steam and enjoy playing the hell out of them. I
| often switch backward and forward from new to original graphics
| and music for nostalgia reasons though.
| lawgimenez wrote:
| The Curse of Monkey Island is my favorite game, I am honored to
| read this post and blog. Thanks HN!
|
| I still remember the part of the game where Guybrush was stuck in
| a quicksand, I remember it took me days to figure the solution
| out.
| fouadf wrote:
| It's my favorite game too, this game takes me back to wonderful
| childhood memories. Ironically that puzzle was the one of the
| easiest for me to solve
| lawgimenez wrote:
| Awesome then! I could not remember that single thing I forgot
| to collect for that puzzle, maybe it was the gum? I dunno but
| I enjoyed it a lot. Fun memories.
| sn0wtrooper wrote:
| You only needed the Helium Ballon, which you had in the
| inventory since the beggining of the game
| lawgimenez wrote:
| It's cool and amazing that you still remember this. I
| mean last time I played this game was over 20 years ago
| ha! Ah yes the Helium balloon and this is the also the
| part Guybrush needs to shoot the dart right?
| WorldMaker wrote:
| Papapeeshoo
| nomoreusernames wrote:
| old 2d scumm is my favorite engine. with all its weird stuff
| going on, the amount of imagination it has unleashed is next to
| magical. its like the amiga500 or c64. there is something about
| being limited as a creative person which sparks imagination.
| certain "things" do it better or worse. scumm should be seen as
| an instrument, not a tool.
| JohnFen wrote:
| An old art teacher of mine once said "art is creativity
| expressed under constraints".
| stuckinhell wrote:
| I just played thimbleweed park, and yikes what a horrible ending.
|
| I'm very worried about Monkey Island now. Some authors NEED
| editors. I think Ron Gilbert needs the original team to help him
| on what works and what doesn't.
|
| Even the original Chrono Trigger was going to be super
| depressing, if the original writer had his way on everything. I
| would have hated his version of it.
| WorldMaker wrote:
| This is partly why I think Dave Grossman's deep involvement is
| so important to Return to Monkey Island. Ron seems best with a
| larger writers room and Dave by all accounts is one of the best
| influences he can have that is also a Known Quantity from the
| rest of the franchise.
| pcthrowaway wrote:
| I haven't heard this (and Chrono Trigger is my favorite game).
| What was the original ending supposed to be? "...but the future
| refused to change"?
| stuckinhell wrote:
| http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Supporting_Material_Tra.
| ..
|
| https://www.pressthebuttons.com/2014/10/lost-chrono-
| trigger-...
| legitster wrote:
| This worries me a bit too.
|
| I have a lot of fondness for Monkey Island, but more often than
| not - giving a creative person complete creative controls is
| less likely to produce something good.
| riffraff wrote:
| Thimbleweed Park was imvho a "meh" game. I hope the new monkey
| island can improve on that.
|
| OTOH I am now playing "The Captain" which is a modern take on
| point&click with beautiful pixel art and a few new things, and
| I feel it filled my need for a good monkey island already.
| fancyPantsZero wrote:
| When he talks about pushing the art forward, I wonder if he is
| also talking about the art of game design. Is he going to show us
| a futuristic vision of the classic point & click gameplay, or is
| this part still stuck in the past?
| pizzabearman wrote:
| I feel like monkey island one and two was basically a very
| advanced "book" with basic animated illustrations. But you could
| still fill in a lot with your own imagination with the graphics
| of that time. Skip forward to any of todays games and they are
| way way closer to a movie then a book. Just like when any book is
| made into a movie there is a lot of hardcore fans that have a
| different mental model of their book and don't want it
| overshadowed by a movie. It is easy to avoid and not watch the
| "movie". I will be very happy to see a new game by Ron based on
| what he feels is his vision and not what the public wants.
| Simon_O_Rourke wrote:
| I love his Day of the Tentacle critique, it's basically what my
| grandma would say if she reviewed games.... "I'm sure what you've
| created might be good, but it's not my cup of tea at all... In
| fact..."
| rob74 wrote:
| Your grandma is a wise person - but of course it's the only way
| to critique a game made by people that you respect and that you
| worked with for a long time...
| benniomars wrote:
| I love the Chuck Jones style in that game. I play through it at
| least 5-6 times a year. But I also just like Chuck Jones's
| stuff in general.
| fernandotakai wrote:
| it was my first real adventure game (i couldn't even progress
| through it because i didn't speak a single word of english --
| it was trial and error until i understood what "open",
| "push", "pull", "pick up" were) so i absolutely LOVE the art
| style.
|
| but i totally get what ron means -- art style is 100%
| personal preference.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| I find it interesting that sequels in gaming are way easier than
| in movie business: game designers don't have to deal that much
| with stars ageing or dying, and voice actors are far easier to
| replace than on-screen ones. Though with deepfake technology this
| might be changing.
| [deleted]
| rightnow wrote:
| I'd love the new design and i love the old games. I dont really
| see the point of doing a new game with the old tech. Its better
| to make a new game with new tech that brings it into 2022.
| nottorp wrote:
| > It's ironic that the people who don't want me to make the game
| I want to make are some of the hard core Monkey Island fans. And
| that is what makes me sad about all the comments.
|
| I don't know. I can probably still finish monkey 1 and 2 without
| a walkthrough because I've played them many times. That makes me
| a fan right?
|
| And I find the fake modern pixel art... boring.
| capableweb wrote:
| Not sure I misunderstand you or not, but you seem to have
| missed the point of the article?
|
| Monkey 1&2 are not pixel art, it's "state of the art" graphics.
| The new one will also not be pixel art, it'll try to move the
| graphics forward.
|
| So if you think pixel art is boring, you should be happy with
| what was outlined in this blog post?
| nottorp wrote:
| > So if you think pixel art is boring, you should be happy
| with what was outlined in this blog post?
|
| I am. Read again. Including what I quoted from the original
| article.
| capableweb wrote:
| Yeah, read it a couple of times now. Seems you're actually
| agreeing with the author, while your comment reads like
| your disagreeing, but again, probably just me
| misunderstanding your comment.
|
| All is good, I probably just need a break from the computer
| :)
| the_af wrote:
| > I don't know.
|
| You probably _do_ know. If you 've read the reactions online,
| you'll probably know some vocal fans are disappointed with the
| new art style. This is Ron's reply to them.
|
| There will be exceptions. You are one. I am another. But it
| doesn't invalidate Ron's point, because it's easy to fact-check
| it by going online and looking for opinions, even in Ron's own
| blog.
| Sharlin wrote:
| "When you have fans like this, who needs haters?"
| technovader wrote:
| He's being a baby here.
|
| There's a proper way to take criticism from a passionate
| fanbase of 20+ years.
|
| IMO the criticism is absolutely justified, just from looking at
| the screenshots and trailer.
| Sharlin wrote:
| His response seems entirely reasonable, and some grumpiness
| is definitely expected from someone whose domain is literally
| grumpygamer.com. As a fan of the originals, I also see
| nothing wrong with the art style of the new game.
| deater wrote:
| for those demanding chunky pixels, you should try this version:
|
| http://deater.net/weave/vmwprod/monkey/
| kgbcia wrote:
| lucasarts had a string of hits that are timeless, dig, day of the
| tentacle, sam and max[had own tv show], and full throttle. great
| single player games that didn't require fast user clicks. you can
| go at your own pace.
|
| it was like the studio Ghibli of the 90s
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| > that didn't require fast user clicks
|
| It absolutely did! Curse that seagull in MI1 tavern, ugh.
| ByThyGrace wrote:
| > sam and max[had own tv show]
|
| Sam and Max was a 80s-90s comic by Steve Purcell[0], who was
| also a LucasArts employee at the time. You will recognize his
| art style in several Monkey Island scenes.
|
| Anyway the point is that the tv show was not based on the
| videogame which you seem to be implying, but on the comic
| instead.
|
| The comic series is artistically amazing. Purcell is a master
| of setting an atmosphere. It's also meant to be comedic but the
| humor is mainly cartoon violent slapstick mixed with pop
| culture references (of the time). It's dated by now.
|
| 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Purcell
| cpfohl wrote:
| Man, I loved The Dig. Once my kids are old enough to _not_ have
| nightmares from some of the scenes we're doing it.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| If you loved The Dig, you'll badly want a remake after _this_
| https://youtu.be/xHJlIhpNS2I
| PeterHolzwarth wrote:
| It's a bit ironic that he says he was not really a fan of Day of
| the Tentacle's "Chuck Jones" art style, when the screenshots for
| his upcoming Return to Monkey Island are all very specifically
| that 90's-infused Chuck Jones style - multiple skewed perspective
| lines in a scene, extreme avoidance of curves (rendered instead
| as polygonal outlines, so to speak).
|
| The art style for his new game is rather ironically nostalgia-
| laden in probably an unintentional way: it's deep nineties pop
| art, ala "Xtreme", etc.
|
| <edit> This interview article has a number of screenshots that
| demo this: https://www.theverge.com/2022/4/14/23021974/return-to-
| monkey...
| emmanueloga_ wrote:
| Reminds me a bit of games like guacamelee [1]. There are a
| bunch of new or newish games that use this "vector style" ...
|
| I always thought this is used mostly out of convenience since
| it is cheaper/faster to animate with tools like Spine or Dragon
| Bones.
|
| 1: https://www.drinkboxstudios.com/games/guacamelee-super-
| turbo...
| hadjian wrote:
| I thought exactly the same! I remember, seeing screenshots of
| DotT for the first time and the new screens of RtMI invoke the
| same feeling. Love it!
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| Yeah, I kinda feel like the style of RoMI could make a better
| DotT:Remastered than DotT:Remastered did :)
| halfnormalform wrote:
| The new one sort of reminds me of the "lowbrow" style of Josh
| Agle, AKA Shag: http://www.shag.com
| egypturnash wrote:
| I replayed Secret of Monkey Island this weekend and was really
| struck by what a ramshackle, distorted place Melee Island is.
| It is an accurate cartoon caricature of slapdash architecture
| on sinking ground.
|
| Here's the very first place Guybrush is controllable in:
|
| https://www.mobygames.com/game/amiga/secret-of-monkey-island...
|
| https://www.mobygames.com/game/amiga/secret-of-monkey-island...
|
| Look at those walls. Not a vertical one in sight. They're all
| leaning.
|
| Deeper in town:
|
| https://www.mobygames.com/game/amiga/secret-of-monkey-island...
|
| https://www.mobygames.com/game/amiga/secret-of-monkey-island...
|
| Lots of straight lines, but no two buildings are in the same
| perspective. It's cartoon cubism, filtered through a 640x480
| grid. Maurice Noble's work with Chuck Jones looms large over
| the backgrounds but so does the realities of what cheap shacks
| slapped together by pirates on constantly-sinking ground would
| look like.
|
| I suspect the "Chuck Jones" art style of DOTT he's referring to
| is the character design. Which was so Jones-influenced that I
| recall hearing that when Lucasfilm had a chance to show it to
| Chuck, he did the most flattering thing possible: he tried to
| hire the animators to work at the new studio he was opening up.
| foldr wrote:
| > 640x480 grid
|
| 320x200. We could only dream of 640x480 with 256 colors in
| those days!
| egypturnash wrote:
| Ah yeah, you're right! My bad.
| chapliboy wrote:
| The game looks stunning, and I'm happy about the direction they
| have chosen graphically.
|
| What I am most excited about is what new game design and
| mechanics we might get to see. I'm hoping it will be more than
| raw point and click, and hopefully will involve more mechanics
| for puzzle solving.
| nu11ptr wrote:
| I have incredible memories of playing MI1, and to a lesser
| extent, MI2 (never finished - no Internet back then and these
| games were tricky). I think it is very cool he is getting to make
| the game he wants, and I do the same with my development work (it
| is always for me, if someone else likes it...bonus). I'll reserve
| judgement until release, but I personally don't like the art
| style...but who cares, I'm probably not his audience anyway (I
| stopped gaming years ago, but would probably pick up a copy if it
| was retro style - and then never play it anyway).
| babyshake wrote:
| You never finished MI2??? Don't get spoiled, but you should
| definitely finish it.
| ricardo81 wrote:
| Cool indeed. I think MI caught the spirit of gameplay for me,
| alongside iconic titles like Elite and Civ.
|
| Pirates of the Caribbean had a similar spirit.
|
| I'll likely be handing over cash for this version. If the new
| game has the same banter and half decent puzzles, it'll be a
| winner, for me. Something to get my daughter to play with me if
| she has the patience of walking about the place!
| SamPatt wrote:
| Curse of Monkey Island is still one of my all time favorites. The
| voice acting and humor were second to none.
| madarco wrote:
| Ron says "I never liked the art in DotT...never liked the wacky
| Chuck Jones style" but the first screens of RTMI looks exactly
| like that!
|
| Not that I don't like that style, but I don't think it's a
| surprise for Lucas Art fans. Day of the Tentacle, Sam & Max,
| Fullthrottle weren't that far away (except with a lower
| resolution)
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| Full throttle had a fairly grounded art style.
| WorldMaker wrote:
| Relative to those others, sure, but it was still such an
| interesting mishmash of biker/tattoo art, heavy metal art,
| and dystopian imagery that doesn't exist just about anywhere
| else in games. (The next closest is probably Brutal Legend,
| for obvious reasons.)
| unwind wrote:
| This reminded me of the amusing way the leas character (Guybrush)
| was named. Obligatory wiki linkage [1] but basically due to a
| Deluxe Paint filename convention.
|
| [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guybrush_Threepwood
| DocTomoe wrote:
| Read it from the man himself - and also common myths around the
| filename: https://grumpygamer.com/guybrush_fact_fiction
| mdp2021 wrote:
| I remained strongly impressed (and chuckly) by
|
| > _Facts are so 2015_
|
| -- Ron Gilbert, Fall 2020
| erwincoumans wrote:
| Fun games but did anyone read the footer on Ron's page? death by
| dismemberment!
|
| "Unless otherwise noted, all content is Copyright 2004-2022 Ron
| Gilbert. Unauthorized use under penalty of death by dismemberment
| and/or fine not less than one million dollars. (v4.1)"
| giords wrote:
| Ah, that penalty is easily dismissible by pressing F13
| darkwater wrote:
| When you read posts like this, and also the previous, linked one
| [1], you can clearly see that Ron is a smart and humble guy. I
| really dislike the fan mob that it's starting the hate because
| RTMI is not going to be a throwback and retro-game.
|
| > Monkey Island 1 and 2 weren't pixel art games. They were games
| using state-of- the-art tech and art.
|
| This is SO true, and as much as I loved those games, as much as I
| stopped playing modern videogames and as much as I love the style
| of Thimbleweed Park, going forward for an artist like Ron is what
| _defines_ an artist. If you like MI1 and Mi2, just play MI1 and
| MI2 again as I do from time to time. Just like you would watch
| again a movie from the '70s or listen to the Beatles. But you
| cannot ask an artist to stay always the same because you loved
| their first works.
| rob74 wrote:
| What was special about the first two Monkey Island games (at
| least for me) was the _atmosphere_. I mean, just look at this
| screenshot:
| https://www.adventurecorner.de//uploads/images/games/monkey1...
| Parts 1 and 2 had this effect on me, with part 3 the magic was
| mostly gone unfortunately. If _Return to Monkey Island_ manages
| to recapture some of that, I don 't care if it's pixel art or
| whatever else...
| Biganon wrote:
| I've been thinking about that quite a lot, but with Zelda
| games. I've come to the conclusion that the old games feel
| beautiful and mysterious and nostalgic _because I played them
| as a child_. I 'm no longer a child, life is no longer the
| same. It's not necessarily worse, it's just fundamentally
| different. I will never blame Shigeru Miyamoto for that, it
| would be absurd.
| ncann wrote:
| Yeah, it's a sad fact that I've realized myself as well. No
| matter how good a game is, I'll never be able to experience
| again that magical feeling when I played Pokemon for the
| first time on the GB.
| sigg3 wrote:
| But you can experience it with new things!
|
| If you approach stuff with positivity, openness and
| wonder you'll have a blast! This is my current experience
| with learning Go, having learned Python previously.
|
| I don my explorer's hat and force myself to live into the
| text, subject or code (Herder's Einfuhlung). Personally
| it makes the journey so much more entertaining than
| merely as a tools to an end.
| ncann wrote:
| I mean yes, the joy is still there when trying new things
| for the first time, I would be lying if I said otherwise.
| But it's just not the same. You know that feeling of
| total absorption/encompassment when you played your
| favorite game for the first time in your childhood?
| There's nothing like it. I went to dinner thinking about
| the game. I went to sleep thinking about the game. I went
| to school thinking about the game. The joy when my
| starter Pokemon evolved was indescribable. The game was
| the only thing that was on my mind. What's even more
| amazing is that I'm not a native English speaker, and I
| did not understand a single word in the game back then,
| yet somehow that did not impede me at all, in fact I
| think it even added to the joy of exploration.
| mlyle wrote:
| I think it's something you have to work harder to find,
| and perhaps find less often as you grow up.
|
| It's joyful to obsess over stuff; to try and get better;
| to try and understand.
|
| There's two things, IMO, that get in the way as an adult:
|
| * The crush of ordinary responsibility can not leave
| enough time for exploration and wonder.
|
| * Related: We just get used to following a routine and
| not completely losing ourselves in something new. Maybe
| we tell ourselves we can't get good at new things anymore
| like we used to.
|
| Revisiting old stuff, like Monkey Island, is fun; but
| it's not nearly as intense as something new. I'm looking
| forward to it and it will be entertaining to share with
| my family. It's been awhile since I've found this kind of
| pure fun and intensity in video games, but I'm sure it'll
| happen again.
| nicolas_t wrote:
| I've had this feeling not so long ago when playing
| horizon zero dawn. I don't know why but I loved this game
| so much that it reminded me of the feeling of playing
| secret of mana as a kid.
| gagege wrote:
| I played MI1 for the first time last year and I can tell
| you it's not just nostalgia. It's just a freaking great
| game.
| spywaregorilla wrote:
| I was thinking about this quite a bit replaying ocarina of
| time. It's now very apparent to me that a lot of the world
| is giant sheets of 2d textures, with some scattered doors
| as 3d objects, like castletown. Then I started to notice
| some things that were... surprisingly good? My favorite:
| Link had IK foot placement! His feet would land on
| individual steps as you went up stairs.
| cwillu wrote:
| "Their minds ranged far and wide inside dreamscapes Daphne
| wove for them, for she knew all the secrets of that art,
| and many of the techniques of false-life sculpting, and
| story-crafting, which, to her, were trite and worn, to him,
| were new; and she found pleasure in his delight."
|
| --The Phoenix Exultant by John C. Wright
| Keyframe wrote:
| I'd agree with you completely if I hadn't played Breadth of
| the Wild. It somehow managed to bring that child back and
| front again.
| munificent wrote:
| There is a large component of that, but it's not _just_
| that for me.
|
| Minecraft evokes much of that sense of magic and wonder for
| me and I didn't start playing it until my later 30s.
|
| Other key components are:
|
| * A world that is interactive enough to feel like a place
| where you _are_ and not just imagery that you 're skimming
| over.
|
| * Art that is detailed enough to be evocative but not so
| detailed that it reaches the uncanny valley of looking
| real-ish but not actually real.
|
| Minecraft does both in spades.
| wtetzner wrote:
| I think this is a big part of why I still enjoy playing
| Morrowind more than pretty much all newer open world
| games.
|
| It felt like you were really in a place, and the lack of
| HUD directing you to "points of interest" made it that
| much more exciting and interesting when you discovered
| something new.
| alanfranz wrote:
| I did play Life is Strange when I was 36. The story wasn't
| so great, but the atmosphere? Just great.
| pcthrowaway wrote:
| One of the few games I've played in my 30s. I really
| liked the story actually, until the final chapter where
| Max is navigating some weird Dreamscape that goes on a
| bit too long.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| The first MI is almost not believable that it is an EGA game.
| Then Loom came out and looks even better. These games pushed
| the limits of what graphical hardware of the time was capable
| of.
| babyshake wrote:
| If you look at the screenshots and art released, they are
| definitely at least attempting an atmospheric feeling. I'll
| give them the benefit of the doubt. For me the thing I really
| love most is the MIDI music. Occasionally I'll put on the
| score from MI2, Loom or another game and it brings me back.
| windmaster wrote:
| That! Monkey Island was all about the atmosphere. It brought
| the caribbean to my living room.
| 867-5309 wrote:
| you'd be hard pushed to recreate that in mspaint!
| ykonstant wrote:
| Oh! I am glad to see the atmosphere aspect of MI emphasized!
| I played these games as a preteen, and much of the humor went
| above my head (non-native speaker). It was the atmosphere,
| the setting and the characters that made me love the games,
| especially the first one. I spent _so_ much time on Melee
| Island; the eerie forest, the voodoo lady, the jail, the
| docks... these places and people made a tremendous impression
| on young me.
|
| EDIT: Oh, and how can I forget the music!
| technovader wrote:
| Fortunately Michael Land has made the music for every
| Monkey Island game yet, and is also onboard to do the music
| for this one
| [deleted]
| Razengan wrote:
| > _What was special about the first two Monkey Island games
| (at least for me) was the atmosphere._
|
| Same! First of all I LOVED the "eternal night" in some
| locations.
|
| It was unexplained and unmentioned (though an easy headcanon
| might be that everything you do there takes place during a
| single night) but it has a _huge_ effect on the aesthetic
| feel of the game world.
|
| The other thing that evoked the sense of adventure was the
| balance between the Civilized and Unexplored parts of its
| world, a common theme in pirate settings.
|
| > _with part 3 the magic was mostly gone unfortunately._
|
| Curse certainly felt a bit "off" to me (I wasn't aware that
| it wasn't made by the same people but I could feel it) but it
| still had some charm, except for the abrupt final episode.
| hhlevnjak3 wrote:
| I could never say part 3 doesn't have atmosphere. The music,
| the art, the overall feel was different, but great on it's
| own.
|
| On the other hand, the story, and the subtle humor from 1 and
| 2 was lacking or different.
| simulate-me wrote:
| Without having context of when this was made and that it was
| part of a game, this looks like a fairly generic picture of a
| mountain. You regularly see images with far more atmosphere
| on r/PixelArt.
| AdvancedCarrot wrote:
| I think a big part of it as well is the music that comes in
| when you're first presented with this scene.
|
| I genuinely think this game (which I didn't discover until
| years later following its release) has the impact that it
| has for me because of the brilliant soundtrack.
| pcthrowaway wrote:
| That music on tinny computer speakers (if you didn't have
| Soundblasters at the time) was something else:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IOL4q5tDDQ
|
| I think it was here on HN that I previously read a
| comment breaking down how the PC speaker could only play
| one tone at a time, but the team managed to simulate two
| overlapping melodies
| mdpye wrote:
| While that sounds like an amazing technical
| accomplishment, I can tell you that discovering it on an
| amiga with a hifi separates amp and speakers[1] was
| definitely better. I was very lucky, but I'm not sorry!
| ;) The soundtrack is sensational.
|
| 1. To be fair, the speakers were intended for the back
| shelf of a car. It _was_ cobbled together from castoffs
| found in the loft...
| auselen wrote:
| It was clearly something better for me, and I think I
| played it around '94, it was better than what was on tv or
| video. And it was why we were playing video games, because
| with each one they kept getting better.
| interpol_p wrote:
| I don't think the atmosphere is quite there in this new one,
| here's Melee Island from The Verge's screenshot. The art
| doesn't sit well with me: https://cdn.vox-
| cdn.com/thumbor/dQbYIfWFh5WfWwby87FoHyI8uog=...
|
| In the modern version the town is no longer twinkling and
| glittering. It appears smaller due to the large buildings.
| The strong purple tints (especially on the horizon) gives the
| scene an uneasy feeling. And the lookout point is no longer
| forlorn, it appears close to the town due to the way the
| whole island appears downscaled because of the larger town
| elements. We have also lost the reflection of the lights in
| the water, making the island appear to sit on the ground
| rather than in the waves
|
| I'm still going to play the game and hope to love it. But the
| art style seems to feature very strong colours and intense
| gradients. When animated the motion seems too fluid, with
| characters deforming like in a Flash animation
| wellthisisgreat wrote:
| Interesting. I think the old picture linked above have a
| dreamy atmosphere because of the jagged edges which create
| a foggy / twinkling effect
| practice9 wrote:
| The old art feels, in a way, more realistic.
|
| One underappreciated aspect of low definition graphics is
| that your mind can interpolate the visuals, and you feel
| more immersed. (suspension is disbelief has a positive
| effect here)
|
| When graphics become HD or closer to photorealistic they
| are starting to trigger an uncanny valley effect.
| the_af wrote:
| > _One underappreciated aspect of low definition graphics
| is that your mind can interpolate the visuals_
|
| Yes, what Scott McCloud calls "closure" in _Understanding
| Comics_.
|
| That said, my mind also interpolates the newer version of
| Melee Island, because it's cartoony and "abstract"
| enough, and so I also like it.
| jeffwask wrote:
| Fan culture in the age of twitter is so polluted with loud
| minorities.
| ipaddr wrote:
| Live by the mob die by the mob. When a mob is attacking your
| idea it might have some merits or not but it has reached a
| popularity breakthrough. A mob attacks when they feel
| threatened. A mob can be used as a tool. Followers are a pre-
| mob description of a group.
|
| Putting out a retro version could be seen as a greedy activity
| that tarnishes the original that could get a different mob
| after you.
| jaimebuelta wrote:
| The interesting bit about this kind of games is that you don't
| need state-of-the-art tech, and art at this point is mostly
| about choices, not necessarily about what's technically
| feasible. The best example is the usage of orchestral music,
| according to the post.
|
| I mean, for an 2D adventure game, you are basically animating
| characters. The objective is to create something like an
| animation movie, in whatever art style you want. It doesn't
| need to push the tech in the same style that the first games
| where.
|
| Which is great! I want them to be spending their efforts in the
| game, artwork, narrative, puzzles, jokes, etc, not on how to
| create a background that looks OK if you have an EGA screen and
| a recognisable melody in a PC speaker.
|
| Whether is pixel art or not is irrelevant to me, as long as
| it's well drawn and animated. I just hope that they end with a
| fantastic result. I'll sure buy it and play it when it's out.
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| > and art at this point is mostly about choices, not
| necessarily about what's technically feasible. The best
| example is the usage of orchestral music, according to the
| post.
|
| Usage of real recorded instruments can still be technically
| challenging today if you want to do what Monkey Island 2 did
| with its audio via iMuse - synchronization between music and
| in-game events (easier) and smooth background music
| transitions between rooms (harder). MI2 Special Edition
| recorded its soundtrack with real instruments and while it
| did a pretty good job at it, it still noticeably simplified
| some transitions the original version had, because they were
| much easier to achieve back when it was using MIDI.
| Tyr42 wrote:
| One interesting innovation is in Octopath traveller. It has
| set up the music before the boss fights where it is ready
| to jump into the boss theme at any point you finish the
| dialog boxes.
|
| https://youtu.be/b7Zc3f8cPnU?t=215
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| That's one of the things Monkey Island 2 did. It also had
| the track seamlessly changing cues and adding/removing
| layers as you entered various sections of a location, had
| multiple transitions between the same tracks that were
| chosen depending on when did you trigger them and in-game
| events were often timed to wait for the beat to
| synchronize them with music. Later games with similarly
| dynamic sampled music that I'm aware about (The Curse of
| Monkey Island, MI2:SE, Portal 2 and now Octopath
| Traveler) did some of these things, but none of them came
| close to the level of complexity in the original Monkey
| Island 2.
|
| Although one reason for that (other than the obvious MIDI
| vs. sampled one) could be that in MI2, a lot of effort
| went into this music system which ended up working great,
| but... not many people actually noticed ;)
| cptskippy wrote:
| > The interesting bit about this kind of games is that you
| don't need state-of-the-art tech, and art at this point is
| mostly about choices, not necessarily about what's
| technically feasible.
|
| Certain types of games exist and thrive due to what's
| technically feasible at the time they're created, just like
| any other form of art.
|
| An example, Cuphead isn't radically different from something
| like Metroid in terms of gameplay and yet Cuphead was
| technically impossible when Metroid was all the rage.
| Similarly Metroid's asthetic is a product of it's era and
| wouldn't be received today in the same way.
|
| Games are art, they simultaneously drive the medium while
| being limited by it.
| RajT88 wrote:
| Ron Gilbert making a modern MI is like Metallica cutting their
| hair for these fans.
| soneca wrote:
| I am glad Ron thinks like that.
|
| I didn't know there was this rage against not being pixel art
| (but I should have suspected). I am glad it isn't. I backed and
| loved Thimbleweed Park (even the ending), but that project was
| all around nostalgia. The gameplay, the X-Files-y story, it
| made sense for that game to be pixel art. Now Monkey Island is
| exactly what Ron said, state of the art. I liked even the 3D
| one.
|
| I am even more excited for this new one after reading the post.
| SkeuomorphicBee wrote:
| > I really dislike the fan mob that it's starting the hate
| because RTMI is not going to be a throwback and retro-game.
|
| That is the same blow-back that George Lucas caught when he
| made the Star Wars prequels. When George Lucas made the
| original Star Wars he set out to make a state-of-art sci-fi
| movie, and in fact he pushed the state-of-art ahead by a huge
| leap in that movie. A decade or two later, with the evolution
| of cinema effects, the original trilogy stopped being seen as
| state-of-art, but kept its cultural influence now under a new
| lens, it started being seen as a type of retro-futurism. So
| when George Lucas set out to make the prequels, he again
| intended to make state-of-art sci-fi movies*, as is his right,
| and as he should, but many of the fans instead wanted the new
| trilogy to match the retro-futurism feel they now assigned to
| the original ones, hence the many complaints at the time.
|
| Interestingly enough, later when Disney made the sequels they
| went the other way completely, and bet heavily on the retro-
| futurism feel (down even to the story arcs), so they got blow-
| back from the fans that instead wanted a state-of-art sci-fi.
|
| * If he achieved that state-of-art goal is debatable, my
| personal opinion he did, but just barely, failing to leap
| forward like the original did on its time, so they do feel a
| bit like "generic late 90s/early 00s sci-fi".*
| smudgy wrote:
| I'm not sure a major problem with the prequels was the
| aesthetic.
|
| It never bothered me that it felt more "modern" than the
| original trilogy, it bothered me (and plenty of others) that
| the story wasn't good. For something that was in his head for
| such a long time, it came out half-baked.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| It's the same with the sequels, they're making big jumps in
| the established lore, and they made the huge mistake of not
| actually fleshing out the story beforehand (like e.g. the
| MCU), leading to three disconnected movies full of
| attempted nostalgia and pushing merchandise; they made
| fanservice instead of good films.
| speeder wrote:
| Actually from what I heard they DID flesh out things.
|
| But then they made the serious error of hiring Rian
| Johnson AND giving him free rein with the direction of
| the movie.
|
| Rian Johnson already stated himself, he likes making
| divisive films. He also stated he doens`t like Star
| Wars...
|
| So he proceeded to ignore the plans that they had, and
| just do whatever he wanted.
|
| 1. He ignored several planned story arcs and just shoved
| things. 2. He ignored past movies and create a lot of
| non-sense. 3. He ignored the Extended Universe but in a
| bad way, Extended Universe books had a look of technical
| information and whatnot that circulated back into canon,
| with movies and canon TV series using that information,
| RJ just ignored that information.
|
| I fully expected Lucasfilm to just give up and not even
| attempt to make Film 9, that is how bad Film 8 fucked up
| the plans... But seemly they made an honest attempt to
| save the franchise in Film 9 by making it fanservice on
| top of fanservice and hope fans forget all the continuity
| errors and non-sense the plot became riddled with in Star
| Wars 8...
| vlunkr wrote:
| And Disney could have said "no" to any of his ideas at
| any point. He's become a scapegoat for bitter fans who
| can't see that Disney didn't know what to do after the
| first movie.
| halostatue wrote:
| I find Ep 7 to be mostly unwatchable because it's almost
| all fan service without a real story to be found. There
| was no plot for Ep 8 to hang itself on, just a few
| coathooks widely spread.
|
| Ep 8 had some really interesting character arcs, but also
| made some basic errors. As a _movie_ , I think that it's
| the strongest of the three sequels. Given a lack of plot
| points to really hang off, Johnson seems to have done
| something interesting, but left even fewer plot points to
| hang off than Abrams left him. Let's be clear: if
| Lucasfilm had disagreed with his direction, they would
| have taken him off the project.
|
| Ep 9 was more fan service (who can we throw into _this_
| scene?) with an _even more inexplicable_ plot hook (if
| the Emperor was coming back in any way, there should have
| been hints of that in Ep 7).
|
| I do not understand the fascination with J J Abrams. He
| claims to be a fan of various media, but IMO he is the
| shallowest type of fan out there, appreciating only
| certain aesthetics without looking any deeper. His Star
| Trek films are _the absolute worst_ of all the Star Trek
| films, even worse than Star Trek V: The Final Frontier.
| Why are they the worst? Because they have become Generic
| Action Films with a Star Trek veneer. (This is more or
| less my complaint with _Picard_.) I dread the idea of
| seeing J J Abrams touch any more science fiction
| properties because he just doesn't _get_ them and turns
| them into Michael Bay films (but with lens flares instead
| of explosions).
| WorldMaker wrote:
| Abrams stated in more than one interview that he didn't
| know Star Trek much beyond Wrath of Khan and wasn't much
| interested in Star Trek. Star Trek to JJ was always just
| the audition for Star Wars.
|
| He proved he was great at nailing the _aesthetic_ even if
| so many other qualities of the franchise like writing and
| plot take a back seat.
|
| That's basically his Star Wars movies in a nutshell too:
| he absolutely nails the aesthetic 100% and everything
| else suffers. I think that's why they feel so much like
| fan service rather than standalone efforts because of
| that uncanny valley effect where they feel so much like
| old Star Wars movies and don't have great ideas but to
| ape old Star Wars plots, but still aren't "Old Star
| Wars". A lot of what was new in the films added greatly
| to the aesthetic of the franchise and pushed that, at
| least, in new directions.
|
| Honestly, I think "the Emperor has returned somehow" is
| pure 100% Star Wars aesthetic, too. Weird cloning
| nonsense: very Star Wars. Evil villains returning at
| surprise hours after being silently behind the curtain
| for movies: very Star Wars. Absolutely the writing could
| have done better of foreshadowing that than by doing it
| in Fortnite of all places (!), but it's still very Star
| Wars to just "oh, here's the Emperor now". The new
| trilogy "rhymes" with the original trilogy: Snoke like
| Vader is clearly a Lieutenant of someone else (and
| turning out to be a broken clone of the Emperor, very
| Star Wars) and then Vader/Snoke are revealed to be less
| important and we fight the Emperor directly. The only
| missing is the "I am your father" bit for Snoke, but we
| all know how corny Rian Johnson thought that was, despite
| being the exact sort of soap opera (well, _pulp serial_ )
| plotting that made Star Wars what it was/is.
| kemayo wrote:
| Abrams was an interesting (read: poor) choice for the
| final film, because he's _famous_ for setting up
| compelling plots and not sticking the landing. See: Lost.
| His whole "mystery box" thing is great at pulling in
| viewers, but he's never been able to come up with
| something that works when he's forced to finally open the
| box.
|
| Amusing juxtaposition in critical reception:
|
| Article about his mystery box thing before Rise:
| https://www.success.com/jj-abrams-and-the-unopened-
| mystery-b...
|
| Article about his mystery box thing after Rise:
| https://screenrant.com/star-wars-rise-skywalker-abrams-
| myste...
| kemayo wrote:
| I do agree with you that Disney mismanaged the whole
| trilogy, and the fault lies with them. They very clearly
| went into it without any sort of plan or even a
| particular vision, deferring completely to whatever each
| director wanted to do. With minimal imposition of a plot
| outline, the whole thing could have gone much better,
| even while still leaving the individual directors to
| mostly decide how they got there.
|
| To my mind, letting Abrams double-down on swerving back
| to his plot in episode 9 was their biggest management sin
| when it comes to creating a coherent plot arc. If they'd
| carried on with what 8 was setting up we'd have had
| ["nostalgia" => "twist" => "resolution"], and instead we
| were left with ["nostalgia" => "twist" => "ignore that!
| more nostalgia"]. The former could have worked out and
| won over those who disliked the Last Jedi twists, the
| latter just flopped unsatisfyingly. (A second-movie twist
| was always in the cards, given general fan sentiment
| about Empire.)
|
| Disclaimer: I personally liked episode 8 the most of that
| trilogy, and it's the only one I'd bother to go rewatch.
| It has the best direction by far, along with the most
| striking visuals of the lot and most of the quotable
| lines. _That said_ , I think my take on this holds up
| regardless of which side of the Last Jedi divide you fall
| on. :D
| dylan-m wrote:
| Yep, management sins abound. It made sense to me that
| some people would be picking at Ryan Johnson's film as
| defiling the saga or whatever because it _was_ divisive,
| but obviously if you 're trying to tell a good story -
| and it isn't like Johnson forced Disney to produce his
| film - you'll find a way to work with that and honour the
| world you're creating. Instead, they threw fuel on the
| fire, practically breaking the fourth wall as they do
| everything they can to _reverse_ the thing with Episode
| 9. People shouldn 't be talking about how the writers
| disagreed with each other, but here we are; the lasting
| legacy of the last three Star Wars movies is not the
| movies themselves, but the story of how they were
| politicked and focus-grouped into existence. Nobody
| involved here had even the slightest concept of artistic
| creation.
|
| And to be fair, I liked Episode 8. Flawed, stupid casino
| planet bit, the ending was silly. But Star Wars isn't
| known for its plot and logical consistency anyway; the
| series is 99% retcons and fan theories. What's important
| is the atmosphere and the characters, and what the meagre
| plot _means_ for those characters. And there was actually
| some genuine effort being made.
| WorldMaker wrote:
| > To my mind, letting Abrams double-down on swerving back
| to his plot in episode 9 was their biggest management sin
| when it comes to creating a coherent plot arc.
|
| Abrams was an Executive Producer on Ep 8 still and was
| supposedly in the room for all of the plot development.
| He personally could have avoided most of that swerve had
| he been paying attention. Admittedly, he thought at the
| time it was Trevorrow's problem because Disney didn't
| fire Trevorrow from Ep 9 until the "last minute", but
| there's a lot of interesting questions left about what
| Abrams even thought the "resolution" could possibly be
| even with Trevorrow at the helm. He was still an
| Executive Producer in a role that should have been
| preparing for the trilogy as a whole to succeed.
|
| It takes a village to make a movie and all that, and I'm
| not personally blaming Abrams, though it sounds like it,
| I think Disney management should have been more involved
| too. The whole Trevorrow thing reeks of Disney management
| failure and bad contract planning. (Between that and the
| shenanigans with Lord/Miller over Solo...)
|
| I think Abrams made the best movie for Ep 9 that he could
| have given the time, budget, and resources he had to meet
| a "set in stone" holiday release date. I think he did the
| best he could with what Johnson left him, and honestly I
| don't think anyone could have resolved Johnson's plot
| twists well and _still have felt like Star Wars_. He had
| good ideas in absentia, but they weren 't "Star Wars".
|
| (Admittedly, I thought Ep 8 was the entire wrong genre
| for Star Wars: it was a Vietnam War movie in a franchise
| built around World War 2 metaphors/aesthetics. I also had
| a big issue with the "Three Billboards problem" of Poe in
| Ep 8. In my eyes he's unreedemably the villain of the
| film, and the character is entirely broken beyond repair
| in Ep 8. But also, admittedly, I haven't liked any of
| Rian Johnson's films that I've watched [inc. Knives Out;
| and I especially hated Looper].)
| kemayo wrote:
| > Admittedly, I thought Ep 8 was the entire wrong genre
| for Star Wars: it was a Vietnam War movie in a franchise
| built around World War 2 metaphors/aesthetics.
|
| Ah, but Star Wars has always been a Vietnam metaphor
| filtered through WW2 aesthetics. Specifically, with the
| Rebels being the Viet Cong -- they're a small group using
| asymmetric warfare tactics against a vast military
| machine that's exerting cultural hegemony over even the
| territory it doesn't control. Lucas has actually been
| pretty explicit about this being his intention in
| interviews.
| WorldMaker wrote:
| That's a fair point, though in practical terms I think
| Lucas just took the roundabout way to arrive a metaphor
| involving the real world Maquis (as opposed to Star
| Trek's odder counterpart):
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquis_(World_War_II)
|
| There's still a lot fewer "shades of grey" in "French
| rebels versus Nazis" than in all the complicated
| geopolitics of Viet Cong versus US military. Lucas may
| have used the idea from the Vietnam War, but he didn't
| just filter it through a WW2 aesthetic, he entirely
| embedded it in it.
|
| To my mind Star Wars isn't exactly the franchise for
| "maybe the Empire are the good guys in the story" shades
| of grey. (Though admittedly I also find it appalling how
| many people cosplay the Empire and how much merch there
| is and seeming adulation the Empire gets. Though it is
| seemingly great for Disney's bottom line if people don't
| think of the First Order as a Nazi Regime that exploded
| entire planets worth of people like the text tells us
| they are.)
| hutzlibu wrote:
| My first impression was the same, but later I came to the
| conclusion that it was just way more deep.
|
| The first star wars was glorifying rebellious david against
| goliath setting and fun adventures. A young nobody becomes
| a hero for the good side. People identified with luke
| skywalker.
|
| The later was way more about politics, intrigues and
| corruption of power. Not a bad story, but much more heavy
| (and depressing). A young nobody becomes a dark lord.
| Identifying with a dark lord? A bit harder.
|
| (And the disney movies try to be simple again, but are too
| shallow for my taste, but are well shot)
| the_af wrote:
| The Star Wars prequels simply weren't good for
| storytelling/plot reasons, not just visuals.
|
| The characters weren't interesting, or even worse, were
| universally reviled like Jar Jar. The main character (both as
| a kid and as a teenager) was annoying as hell. The story
| didn't mesh well with the established Star Wars movies, like
| that thing with midichlorians that was thankfully played down
| in subsequent movies. For some reason, Lucas moved The
| Phantom Menace from "Young Adult" territory (as was the
| Original Trilogy) to "kid's movie", but halfway and
| inconsistently, so you get Jar Jar and "yipeee!" but also
| Trade Federation taxation routes -- what the hell?
|
| To be fair, the visuals were _also_ abused by Lucas. I think
| there 's a legitimate criticism to be made of George Lucas
| and his "horror of the void": when he didn't have the
| tech/budget, he had to live with vast empty spaces, and the
| movies got that "Spaghetti Western" barren look that actually
| made them better. When CGI became cheaper and easier to use,
| George Lucas decided to fill every bit of empty screen with
| some gizmo or cute alien screaming at the screen, and his
| movies suffered because of this.
| ffhhj wrote:
| Lucas planned Jar Jar to be revealed as the Sith Lord in
| the second movie, that's why the character is unlikeable,
| but it would have been an interesting plot twist and would
| have made the first movie rewatchable since he place many
| little clues. Authors shouldn't be scared to develop their
| vision, and then create something to please them that will
| suck anyway.
| kemayo wrote:
| I'm pretty sure that Darth Jar Jar is only a fan theory,
| without any commentary from Lucas confirming it. (We can
| speculate, but I dislike saying it so confidently.)
| babyshake wrote:
| The prequels weren't exactly full of shocking plot twists
| that weren't clearly telegraphed or just shown on the
| movie poster (young Anakin with the Darth Vader shadow).
| I don't think Jar Jar was ever going to be evil.
| the_af wrote:
| I think Darth Jar Jar is an amusing fan theory, but fan
| theory nonetheless. Yes, Ahmed Best (the actor) said it
| wasn't out of the question, but there's no official
| confirmation this was even considered. All there is, is
| fan based theories speculating about circumstantial
| evdience.
| whywhywhywhy wrote:
| Also gotta keep in mind if it's all CGI he can just sit in
| a chair in the same studio the whole movie directing it
| from a monitor.
|
| Once you see the behind the scenes you start to see this as
| one of the main reasons it's so CGI filled.
| GaylordTuring wrote:
| I'm still disappointed that Darth Jar Jar didn't come to
| fruition. It would have been perfect. In episode VII,
| Yoda is introduced as this ridiculous character that
| turned out to be a Jedi master, with the moral of the
| story being that you shouldn't judge a book by its cover.
| Even with this seed planted in the original tribology,
| everyone saw Jar Jar as this clown who shouldn't be taken
| serious. It would have brilliant to reveal that it was
| all a charade that no one could see through, not even the
| viewers who already had seen one such reveal taking place
| in the past.
|
| I'm bummed.
| whywhywhywhy wrote:
| Agree 100%, would have taken resolve to push through the
| criticism and pull that off but it feels like he became
| too influenced by the criticism then ended up shipping
| milquetoast rubbish.
|
| Imagine how fun it would have been watching Ep1 and
| getting annoyed by Jar Jar once you know he ends up super
| evil.
| dleslie wrote:
| Episode 1 is a terrible movie.
|
| I tried watching it with my kids as a marathon of Star Wars
| for May the Fourth, and they became bored with the trade
| federation and Senate, and were annoyed by Jar Jar. The pod
| racing was the saving grace, in their eyes, but even it was
| only mildly amusing.
|
| I turned it off when they left the room when the pod racing
| finished.
| sam0x17 wrote:
| I agree with the import of this, but there is an economy to
| games, and if it turns out that the gamers really do just want
| another installment in the old style, you're missing out on
| that significant segment of the market until you do just that.
| Art is only art if it gets made, and at least frequently,
| someone has to pay the artist for the art to get made.
| bnralt wrote:
| > I really dislike the fan mob that it's starting the hate
|
| I looked into responses to the announcement (on YouTube,
| Reddit, various forums), and didn't find any example of a "fan
| mob that it's starting the hate." Just about all of the top
| responses were extremely positive. I only found a small
| minority of comments saying they don't like the art style, and
| they're all pretty tame. For example, sorting by controversial
| on Reddit brings up this:
|
| > I want to be excited but I'm not thrilled about that art and
| I haven't liked a Monkey Island thing since Curse of Monkey
| Island.
|
| There can be a tendency to exaggerate any criticism in an
| effort to dismiss it. Ron is certainly free to make whatever
| game he likes. But at the same time, people are free to dislike
| whatever game he makes. It doesn't make them hateful or a mob,
| simply people with different opinions.
| causi wrote:
| I like the look, and I think it's better than, say, Monkey
| Island HD. I do see why someone might not like it. The new
| art style is _extremely_ contemporary and basically looks
| exactly like every cartoon show of the last five years.
| aunty_helen wrote:
| Youtube has definitely been running sentiment analysis and
| down ranking any critical comments. Go to any music video and
| read the comments, it's like everyone was given a lobotomy.
|
| It's scary tech censorship. I would take the wild go f
| yourself days of YouTube comments over this v1 matrix toxic
| positivity world any day.
| rideontime wrote:
| Maybe people just don't respond to music videos with a lot
| of negativity? Not every comment section needs to be
| "balanced."
| aunty_helen wrote:
| Luckily I can remember back more than 6 months to know
| this isn't the case, so I don't need to sit here
| wondering.
| pier25 wrote:
| We live in weird times.
|
| Something amazing can happen (such as a new Monkey Island game)
| and there will always be an angry mob with pitchforks that will
| be very vocal about it on social media.
|
| This probably was always the case, but the internet now serves as
| an amplifier of some sort of hype-based social feedback mechanism
| for ideas and opinions. This mechanism probably made sense
| 200,000+ years ago when groups were very small and it helped
| survival by promoting social cohesion. But today the internet
| connects billions of humans and it's a pretty toxic behavior.
| technovader wrote:
| More like legitimate criticism that is brushed off as "haters"
| and "mob"
| [deleted]
| YakBizzarro wrote:
| About the art, I think another perfect example is Grim Fandango.
| It was the first Lucasarts 3D adventure, at a time when the 3D
| (late '90) was a graphically inferior solution to 2D. However,
| they exploited the low polygon number, to give a special
| character to the models, like paper dolls. So the heresy of
| moving from 2D was instead a conscious artistic choice, strictly
| linked to the then-modern technologies.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| To me, Grim Fandango looked fantastic. What made it difficult
| to play were the cursed keyboard controls. I still did beat it,
| but never wanted to come back to it because of those controls.
| A couple of years ago, I replayed the modern remaster, and boy
| does the good old mouse pointer improve the game immensely.
| WorldMaker wrote:
| It's hard to remember how much controls for 3D games were a
| wild west for so long, especially on PC. (The original Tomb
| Raider controls are pretty bad, too, for instance.) People
| act like modern WASD+Mouse Look is an "ancient" standard
| passed down for centuries but a lot of that was hard work in
| 1990s and a lot of failed control schemes that never quite
| worked right, even in their time. (Similarly too how
| relatively "ancient" the modern two-stick controller flow
| feels, but isn't all that old actually. Remember how the N64
| named the weird yellow D-Pad the "C-buttons" in part because
| they thought that might be more natural for "C is for" Camera
| control than the dual stick position?)
| bob1029 wrote:
| > So the heresy of moving from 2D was instead a conscious
| artistic choice, strictly linked to the then-modern
| technologies.
|
| This is how it should have been all along. The only reason
| modern GPUs are in such demand is because we forgot to apply
| art before shiny tech. I don't know why things like polygon
| count and texture resolution turned into a metric for fun.
|
| To this day I can have way more fun in older games like
| Minecraft than super polished AAA titles like RDR2 or Cyberpunk
| 2077. The graphics used to get me interested back when we
| thought photorealism was going to make shit way more fun, but
| the reality of artistic expression turned out to be much more
| complex than this...
| dale_glass wrote:
| Plenty games went the other way. For every stylish Grim
| Fandango there's been dozen of Superman 64 and Bubsy 3D,
| where the developers spent so much time trying to get
| graphics to work that they had no time left for gameplay or
| story.
|
| Shiny tech means there's much less fighting with the
| technology that's needed. You can take advantage of that
| today you don't need to optimize every clock cycle and spend
| the time polishing up the gameplay.
|
| Also, some stories require a fair amount of tech. Superman 64
| should have happened in a bustling Metropolis, just like
| Cyberpunk 2077 does. But it was impossible with the
| technology of the time.
| Nition wrote:
| Another great example of choosing an art style that worked with
| the limitations of early 3D is Interstate '76, from 1997:
| https://i.imgur.com/ro5k82Z.png
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| ...and then Escape from Monkey Island utilized the same tech as
| Grim Fandango, but without those stylistic choices that made
| Grim Fandango's graphics work so well :)
| noduerme wrote:
| Well, that was a fuckton more fun to read than the monthly update
| from Chris Roberts
| kappuchino wrote:
| The german actor and musician? I'm confused.
| ChoGGi wrote:
| The Star Citizen guy
| paines wrote:
| You meant to say Wing Commander
| WorldMaker wrote:
| Yeah that movie was awful, over-hyped and over-budget,
| too, just like Roberts' greatest unfinished game
| Freelancer
| fouadf wrote:
| Big fan of the game series here. Honestly it's such a thrill to
| have Ron work on RTMI. I can't wait to see what he has in store
| for us.
| Copenjin wrote:
| This is one of the few cases where I'll just buy it, I don't even
| care what good decisions he is making.
|
| I've played Thimbleweed Park and loved it, brought back a lot of
| memories.
| GaylordTuring wrote:
| I agree. There are very few games that I'll buy on day one
| without even reading the reviews. This will be one of them.
| technovader wrote:
| Ron you really should not be bashing your oldest most hard core
| fans.
|
| Monkey Island 2 is a masterpiece. The 2D hand drawn style and
| animation are a huge part of it.
|
| I'll take any Monkey Island sequel, but if you take a closer look
| at say the Tales of Monkey Island sequels, you'll see what people
| are worried about.
|
| Monkey Island 4 was TERRIBLE. Fully 3D and tank controls. Tales
| of Monkey Island was great but completely ruined by terrible tank
| controls.
|
| A proper Monkey Island games needs to be 1. Point and Click 2.
| Have excellent puzzle design and structure 3. Ideally 2D hand
| drawn art and animation 4. Least important, Pixelated style like
| MI2 or Loom
|
| People who are critizing the trailer are worried we're getting
| another Tales of Monkey Island or Monkey Island 4.
|
| As long as you nail #1 (proper point and click controls) I think
| you will still make a better Monkey Island sequel since Curse of
| Monkey Island
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| > Monkey Island 2 is a masterpiece.
|
| My mileage certainly differs. I loved how it looked, but to me
| it is by far the weakest of the lucasarts games I played (and I
| played all but the first Maniac Mansion and Zac McKraken). It
| is far too difficult! Far too many locations and items, you
| just get overwhelmed in the middle part of the game.
|
| MI1 was a much better game in this regard.
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| What do 3D games have to do with this though? The new game is
| very clearly not 3D.
|
| Also, while Escape was absolutely atrocious, Tales wasn't so
| bad. It wasn't point'n'click, but unlike Escape it actually had
| reasonable controls.
| technovader wrote:
| The new game isn't 3D, you're right. At least from the
| trailer I can assume so. But I wouldn't rule it out
| completely. Let's see when we actually get some gameplay.
|
| But it still feels like a major downgrade to Curse of Monkey
| Island or the originals.
|
| It looks like every other game, very generic style. It's lost
| the charm of the original games IMO.
|
| I think Ron has an opportunity to differentiate his game from
| all the bad sequels we got before it.
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| "All the bad sequels"? From all Monkey Island games, I'd
| say only Escape could be considered somewhat bad. It felt
| rather uninspired compared to others, control scheme was
| awful and it aged the worst way of all MI games. All the
| rest are really great.
|
| Monkey Island series has been drastically changing the art
| style in its every single installment. When it comes to
| this new style, I find it hard to judge from still
| unpopulated screenshots, as they feel way too static to me.
| The trailer looks nice though.
| WorldMaker wrote:
| If you ignore the awful controls and equally awful
| minigames, I think Escape is still a fun pirate tale with
| a lot of things to love about it. I think the plot's
| overall is pretty inspired about the gentrification of
| the pirate islands, and it's the natural progression from
| Curse's exploration of the same themes (which in turn
| those themes going all the back to things like Secret's
| used boat sales lot). A lot of Escape is extremely funny,
| too. It just has that huge grind in the middle made worse
| by awful controls and environments that were both too big
| and too densely packed with sight gags and too empty all
| at once.
|
| "Somewhat bad", sure, given those qualifications of
| pretend the controls and their grind don't exist. But
| also, more inspired than many give it credit for and
| still "worst Monkey Island" is a relatively high bar
| compared to other franchises we could mention.
| technovader wrote:
| I don't disagree.
|
| I actually played through and finished EMI. I think its
| tonnes of fun and arguable better than CMI.
|
| But I won't say the tank controls didn't ruin an
| otherwise great game
| WorldMaker wrote:
| I know Schafer wasn't involved in EMI and so had no
| direct interest in doing it but with the huge underlying
| similarities in the engine it would have been nice to get
| an EMI remaster side-by-side the Grim Fandango remaster
| with similar controls improvements.
|
| One of these days maybe SCUMMVM will finally get around
| to gifting us the right controls for EMI to make it truly
| fun to experience.
| technovader wrote:
| I don't know how anyone can see a Monkey Island 2/3
| screenshot, and compare it with this abomination, and say
| "it looks fine"
|
| Monkey Island 2 was a gorgeous work of art. Every scene
| was worthy of being a wallpaper.
|
| This trailer looks like something out of Teletoon /
| Cartoon Network. It's a style that is clearly lazy / easy
| / cheap.
| the_af wrote:
| > _Ron you really should not be bashing your oldest most hard
| core fans._
|
| I don't read anything Ron said as "bashing". He explains why he
| is not interested in making pixel art games. He is also
| promising you this is the best possible Monkey Island game he
| can make, one he is proud of.
| technovader wrote:
| He's playing the victim and calling them haters.
|
| It's a legitimate criticism about the art style. No one is
| "hating"
|
| Unless we're at a point where saying anything negative is
| "hating"
| the_af wrote:
| CTRL+F of "hate" and "hating" gives zero results in that
| page. This is what Ron _actually_ says about _some_ fans:
|
| > _" It's ironic that the people who don't want me to make
| the game I want to make are some of the hard core Monkey
| Island fans. And that is what makes me sad about all the
| comments."_
|
| And that's it. He's not "bashing" all fans, not even _some_
| fans. He 's just explaining his vision and what his goal is
| for this Monkey Island game, and also expressing
| disappointment that some fans don't want him to make the
| game he wants.
|
| I think his points are solid. Monkey Island I & II weren't
| retrogames, and so it makes sense he won't try to turn this
| Monkey Island into a retrogame either.
|
| That's it. No "hate". No "hating". No "bashing".
| hitpointdrew wrote:
| I love this post. I know a decent amount of indie devs, I also
| have done some hobby game development myself. I see this alarming
| trend of devs and small studios that are, what I would call,
| hyper engaging with their players. I get it, the players are
| important, you want to sell the game, you want people to play it.
| But, the entitlement and feedback I have seen from some players
| is just ridiculous. Most players don't have the fist clue as to
| what makes a good game, or just how hard it actually is to make
| games. I feel like this post was very elegant way of basically
| saying "Shut the hell up, it's my game, I don't care what you
| want, I am making this game primarily for me. This is my art, and
| my way of expressing myself and sharing it with the world, this
| is not a collaboration. If you like it great, if you don't, oh
| well.", but in a much more palatable and acceptable manner.
| stuckinhell wrote:
| Indie game development isn't a hobby these days. Hence the
| hyper engagement, even big companies like Wendy's hyper engage
| people on twitter.
| hitpointdrew wrote:
| I don't think the level of engagement is helpful, in the end
| it makes a terrible hodgepodge product that no one really
| wants, especially the dev who had an idea for a game that has
| been co-opted into something very different by their
| "customers".
|
| I am not saying devs shouldn't get feedback, I just don't
| think they should be taking feedback from EVERYONE.
|
| Personally if I ever wanted to release a game I would never
| have a public discord where people could contact me. Would I
| have a private discord where some other indie devs I know are
| invited for feedback and play testing? Absolutely. But, I
| wouldn't just let anyone in there.
| axus wrote:
| Game devs can engage and have a back-and-forth, without
| incorporating anything into the game. It's socializing and
| information-sharing to grow an audience, not a
| collaborative effort.
| ricardo81 wrote:
| Seems to be the case with many resurrected franchises, Star
| Trek coming to mind.
|
| As a kid in the 80s/early 90s, games and series like these
| caught my imagination. They were fun. Probably fun, interesting
| and inspiring in different ways to different people.
|
| Agree if we listened to everyone's refined version, we'd end up
| with a different game for everyone. In the end it's only meant
| to be entertainment.
| Beldin wrote:
| In all fairness: there is a difference between the original
| creator coming up with his/her own beloved continuation of a
| beloved project, and a soulless money grab by leveraging name
| recognition with an existing fan base. Irrespective of who is
| doing the soulless money grabbing (corporation, original
| creator, etc).
|
| Return to Monkey Island comes across like the former (so
| far), various Trek and Wars continue-spinning-off-quels more
| like the latter.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2022-05-03 23:00 UTC)