[HN Gopher] Getting hired after fifty
___________________________________________________________________
Getting hired after fifty
Author : legrande
Score : 101 points
Date : 2022-04-30 17:07 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.aarp.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.aarp.org)
| rufus_foreman wrote:
| How do you do fellow kids?
| black_13 wrote:
| sarchertech wrote:
| > While there is little you can do to hide your physical age, you
| might consider tweaks to your wardrobe or hairstyle to show that
| you are up to date on current styles and able to adapt.
|
| This might be good advice, but it's absolutely terrible that it's
| required.
|
| I'm really starting to think we should do voice only interviews,
| maybe even with voice changers (or maybe slack only interviews).
|
| Many orchestras switched to blind auditions, and it drastically
| increased the number of female musicians.
|
| https://gap.hks.harvard.edu/orchestrating-impartiality-impac...
| agumonkey wrote:
| Voice can carry a fair amount of information about someone's
| mindset. Arrogance, uplifting spirit, bad mood.. that said most
| of it is irrelevant unless you're on the spot. Hiring processes
| should focus on that.
| changoplatanero wrote:
| nowdays you have the new york times advocating to get rid of
| blind auditions because they don't produce enough diversity!
| https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/arts/music/blind-audition...
| jquery wrote:
| Blind auditions only get rid of one aspect of discrimination.
| However, when the pipeline is starved because of too few role
| models in their communities due to historical prejudice,
| blind auditions become self-defeating and self-reinforcing.
| The top tier of musical talent is virtually identical in
| ability (equivalent to an Ivy League applicant pool being all
| straight-As), so maybe it's time to focus on other aspects
| like increasing diversity so that more kids have role models
| to look up to.
|
| Of course, you would know all this if you read the article
| instead of using it as some kind of "gotcha" that minorities
| aren't up to snuff musically.
| bluescrn wrote:
| There needs to be more focus on improving the inputs to the
| pipeline. But that could take generations, and people are
| looking for quick fixes right now.
| photochemsyn wrote:
| I think you're displaying an unconscious bias here by
| implying the 'top tier of musical talent is virtually
| identical in ability' and that this somehow excludes
| various groups from that pool. First, that claim is highly
| questionable, and second, you are implying that some groups
| are less talented than others based solely on their
| identity. This kind of bias is rather common, it's rather
| redolant of paternalistic attitudes towards 'naturally
| inferior groups' who need 'inclusive policies' because they
| just can't make the grade on their own.
|
| If you happen to be unfamiliar with this argument, I'd
| recommend this: https://tarahenley.substack.com/p/bad-news
| l33t2328 wrote:
| Not less talented, but certainly less able to spend time
| practicing(as a population) and without as many role
| models that look like them.
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| One sees this a lot, but why do you filter interest in
| subjects by how much the proponents look like you --
| don't you find it really limiting? In practice, how does
| this work, do you get in to someone's thing and then
| think "hang on, they're not like me, better stop being
| inspired".
|
| For me inspiration comes from people, and when I think
| about whether they're similar to me mostly I find they're
| not at all.
|
| Clearly inspiration must work entirely differently for
| you as you say physical similarity is vital. Can you
| explain that? Is it prejudice?
| l33t2328 wrote:
| We're not talking about being inspired. We're talking
| about things like access to resources, time to spend
| learning and practicing, and the availability of people
| who can mentor you.
| mlyle wrote:
| I don't think that's quite what he said.
|
| I think he was saying that the top tier of current
| trained talent isn't equally diverse as the underlying
| population because of past biases in selection, and that
| making a blind selection from that pool likely
| perpetuates some of these biases. E.g. kids who grow up
| seeing symphonies that exclude people that look like them
| are less likely to pursue paths that lead toward them
| being in this pool.
|
| I'm not arguing in favor of affirmative action or a
| purposeful selection bias to fix this. It's a messy
| problem but it deserves thought and consideration.
| chernevik wrote:
| After reading the article you make still less sense.
|
| The article says that blind auditions dramatically
| increased the proportion of women players. It does not
| explain why this effect wouldn't apply to other "under-
| represented" groups.
|
| Clearly some applicants are _not_ "virtually identical in
| ability" with other applicants.
| bitwize wrote:
| Let me introduce you to the concept of social capital and
| how it relates to white privilege.
|
| See, the parents of white (and Asian) kids have, or can
| buy, access to social networks that underrepresented
| groups (particularly black and indigenous) are
| systematically excluded from. That gets the white and
| Asian kids into better music schools and affords them
| more opportunities to get good enough to audition to
| major orchestras, as well as exposure within the
| classical-music world so people know who they are. This
| has the effect of reinforcing a certain racial profile
| for classical musicians.
|
| The solution to this problem has been known since the
| initial civil rights movement in the USA at least:
| affirmative action. Unfortunately that means denying
| really talented white and Asian musicians orchestra
| seats, so that talented people of other communities have
| a shot at the levels of achievement and recognition
| whites have taken for granted. But ultimately, it's for
| the greater good.
| joejerryronnie wrote:
| Aka, let me introduce you to why the Democrats are going
| to get pummeled in the upcoming midterms.
| chernevik wrote:
| > Let me introduce you to the concept of social capital
| and how it relates to white privilege.
|
| It is amazing how progressives assume the problem is the
| ignorance and stupidity of their opponents.
|
| But, it is good to get the real argument out in the open.
| rajin444 wrote:
| How do you know it's social capital and not other factors
| influencing what schools the kids go to?
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Do you think there will be a push for affirmative action
| to increase the number of male students at colleges and
| universities?
| inglor_cz wrote:
| I think we all know the answer.
|
| There might be a push, but its success is doubtful. Too
| many entrenched interests and theories that back them
| (glass ceiling, gender gap) would be threatened by such
| development.
|
| The only thing that could actually move the needle is the
| fact that with a highly skewed sex ratio on campus,
| female students will find their dating experience
| unsatisfactory. People place high premium on finding a
| suitable mate.
| bumbledraven wrote:
| https://archive.ph/b5f9s
|
| _To Make Orchestras More Diverse, End Blind Auditions_
|
| _If ensembles are to reflect the communities they serve, the
| audition process should take into account race, gender and
| other factors._
| bombcar wrote:
| This is the equivalent of saying "try looking sexy, women,
| maybe you'll get hired."
|
| It might work, it may be needed, but it's embarrassing if so.
|
| The sad reality is that if you're over 50 you need to be
| applying to positions that are "age appropriate" which usually
| implies management.
| travisgriggs wrote:
| > The sad reality is that if you're over 50 you need to be
| applying to positions that are "age appropriate" which
| usually implies management.
|
| Wouldn't this be like misogynisticly saying:
|
| "The sad reality is that if you're female you need to be
| applying to positions that are "gender appropriate" which
| usually implies clerical/secretary." ?
|
| Apologies if I didn't understand what you were really trying
| to convey. The opening argument was non-sequitur with your
| closing statement.
| bluedevil2k wrote:
| > The sad reality is that if you're over 50 you need to be
| applying to positions that are "age appropriate"
|
| This is BS advice - the appropriate position is one that you
| like and you have the skills for. I mean, rephrase that and
| you can see just how discriminatory it is - "women should
| apply to gender appropriate positions, not programmers". You
| see how terrible that sounds.
| bombcar wrote:
| It's a statement of how it is, not how it should be. Once
| you're outside of expectations you get a much harder row to
| hoe.
|
| Which can be somewhat countered by having a solid network
| by that time rolls around.
| irrational wrote:
| That's ridiculous. I'm over 50 and I would be a terrible
| manager. My sweet spot is as an individual contributor.
|
| Fortunately, the company I work for recognizes that people
| can take their careers in either a vertical (management) or
| horizontal (increasing skill set and depth of knowledge)
| direction and are okay with everyone choosing the direction
| that best fits their interests, personalities, goals, etc.
| rhizome wrote:
| > _positions that are "age appropriate" which usually implies
| management_
|
| There are and always have been many many ICs over 50, what a
| ridiculous stereotype to propagate.
| JackFr wrote:
| > This is the equivalent of saying "try looking sexy, women,
| maybe you'll get hired."
|
| That's not really fair (and largely not true.)
|
| What it's saying is that appearances matter - they're an
| important non-verbal signaling channel, and to the extent to
| which one can control the way you present, you should, and
| secondly, dress for the job you want.
|
| For both men and women that does not mean dress like you're
| going to a club. It is also an admission that even the best
| of us subconsciously treat attractive people as more
| competent.
|
| I'm old enough to have worked during an era when you wore a
| suit and a tie to an interview for _any_ position. If I
| showed up for a senior role at a startup wearing a suit and
| tie I would be telling them from the get go that I'm either
| I'm out of touch with the culture of the org (not good) or I
| choose to differentiate myself (maybe I'm a lawyer or an
| accountant.)
|
| Finally, as an example in my case - I am over fifty and
| overweight, but I am tall. I know (from mirrors) that I look
| better standing than sitting, so when in person interviewing
| I try to be standing when people enter the room simply
| because I get the difference between "former football player"
| and "fat slob". Does it bother me? Yes and no. Ultimately I
| need to be able to deliver the goods, it's nice not to have
| to fight through preconceptions.
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| >even the best of us subconsciously treat attractive people
| as more competent. //
|
| People who clearly spend/spent a lot of time on their
| appearance suggests to me that they're trying to use some
| sort of "trick" to get ahead and that this probably means
| they're less competent than their peers.
|
| It's like charities that give you a pen, or small quantity
| of money (bear with me) ... Yes, I know that psychological
| trick and it strictly suggests to me that yours is a
| charity I should not donate to.
|
| The whole "dress for the job you want", for example, is
| really "use people's prejudices to trick them into
| unconsciously overestimating your competence".
|
| Sadly, marketing tricks (ie the hostile use of psychology)
| work on all of us, even sometimes when we know we're being
| tricked. Participating in that kind of thing is a red flag
| to me.
|
| The "former football player" vs "fat slob" part of your
| comment suggests you view [or are accommodating others that
| view] unrelated externalities as more important than
| intrinsic qualities related directly to the work. That's
| not uncommon, but it seems like something we need to mature
| beyond.
|
| >I'm out of touch with the culture of the org (not good) or
| I choose to differentiate myself //
|
| This seems really sad to me, like a person likes to wear a
| tie and that's so out there you'd consider you can't work
| with them? Like, what if they were actually different: came
| from a different place, spoke different languages, had
| different body parts? Especially if you're coding, what's
| it matter if you like to wear a formal thawb (Middle-
| eastern robe) and they wear Hawaiian shirts and board
| shorts?
|
| I'm not saying people won't judge you, just that it's
| wrong.
| otikik wrote:
| But that way of thinking cuts both ways. "He's not even
| using the most basic forms of marketing tricks. How
| socially inept this person must be. How can I trust that
| he writes maintainable code if he's not aware of these
| very basic human triggers?"
| chernevik wrote:
| > The sad reality is that if you're over 50 you need to be
| applying to positions that are "age appropriate" which
| usually implies management.
|
| Nope. My LinkedIn dates me by college graduation date, but it
| still generates 2-3 inquiries a day for engineering roles. My
| background has certain trendy buzzwords and the recruiters
| are interested.
|
| As far I can tell, employers are looking for skills and
| attitude, and don't much care about anything else.
|
| Would a startup want me? Dunno, haven't tried in a while.
| edgefield wrote:
| Unfortunately, I think moving up the hierarchy is one of the
| biggest security blankets as you get older. No one seems to
| question when a VP, CFO, or CEO is 50+. Age seems to be an
| asset in this case.
| bluescrn wrote:
| As an obese person, a big advantage of the Zoom/WFH era is that
| people usually just see your head and shoulders, so won't judge
| you on the size of your belly (or the clothes that never fit us
| fatties well)
| ohyoutravel wrote:
| This is true.
| keats102 wrote:
| You sound like a lovely person. There are other factors in
| obesity other than personal choice. Judging a person solely
| by their weight and not their abilities is so short-
| sighted. What if you hire someone who looks great and
| spends all of their time at the gym, and are as dumb as
| dirt.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| chernevik wrote:
| I'm over fifty and I call bullshit.
|
| Dress and appearance convey information about attitude and
| orientation. Who wants to hire someone who will constantly
| complain about the 80-character-per-line coding standard
| because they like 100 characters? Any team has all sorts of
| subtle norms, and wants someone who will adapt themselves to
| such things. If someone can't be bothered to dress properly,
| why would they bother to conform with any other workplace norm?
|
| I wouldn't try to be "current", I'd end up looking like an
| idiot. But I'd appear in a decent pair of pants and nice blue
| shirt and proper shoes. I'm very aware that much of my wardrobe
| would make me look out of touch and stubborn, and no, I don't
| think it unfair for an interviewer to notice such things.
|
| Really this is basic professionalism.
| [deleted]
| sarchertech wrote:
| >I wouldn't try to be "current", I'd end up looking like an
| idiot. But I'd appear in a decent pair of pants and nice blue
| shirt and proper shoes.
|
| So you're saying that you're over 50, so you can't look
| "current", and it's fine for companies to discriminate based
| on that?
|
| The advice in the article is literally "look current". The
| advice isn't "wear proper shoes", it's wear shoes that make
| you look younger.
| chernevik wrote:
| Well, that's bad advice. Few things are more pathetic than
| a middle-aged man trying to look hip. But it is fair of you
| to notice that I don't agree with the article either.
|
| My point was, it is reasonable for an interviewer to notice
| my dress and what it says about me. Dress reasonably
| professionally and appropriately and it won't be a problem.
|
| For me to try to figure out today's sneakers would just be
| a disaster. I have good business casual shoes and they'll
| do fine.
| sarchertech wrote:
| It might be reasonable for an interview to notice how you
| dress. It's certainly not reasonable for an interviewer
| to discriminate against you because you don't dress like
| a 25 y/o. The article is about age discrimination.
|
| Given that age discrimination is real, blind interviews
| could potentially help reduce the effects.
| chernevik wrote:
| They're AARP, noticing age discrimination is their
| mission. Myself, I don't see much of it out there.
|
| "Blind" interviews would be bad for everybody. Zoom is
| already bad enough. There is an enormous amount of
| information conveyed by facial expression. I can tell by
| the look on your face if you aren't following me, or if
| you are super in-tune with it and I get more complicated
| still.
|
| If we're going to generalize, I suspect that most older
| candidates would be better at reading and reacting to
| such nonverbal signals.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > If someone can't be bothered to dress properly, why would
| they bother to conform with any other workplace norm?
|
| > Really this is basic professionalism.
|
| Hmmmmmmmm.
|
| http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000011.h.
| ..
|
| > My gym just fired the opening gun in a new skirmish, by
| posting dozens of signs reading "All lockers must be emptied
| of its contents by August 22 at 5:00 p.m."
|
| > Someone has learned, from the "singular their" fuss, a
| lesson that no one wanted to teach: Universally quantified
| ancedents should get singular pronouns. Or something like
| that.
|
| > This is clearly a case of hypercorrection. However, it's
| not clear which side has gained: the prescriptivists can
| claim (correctly?) that even their opponents surely agree
| that THIS is a mistake; the anti-prescriptivists can counter
| that pedantry is the root cause of the error.
|
| > It's interesting that everyone, prescriptivists and anti-
| prescriptivists alike, seems to think that hypercorrection is
| wrong, morally as well as logically. For the prescriptivists,
| any form that deviates from a postulated universal standard
| is wrong.. For (at least some of) their opponents, use makes
| right, as long as you conform to your own group's norms --
| but it's a sin to imitate the norms of a more prestigious
| group, if you get it wrong. On this point, the
| prescriptivists seem to me to be fairer and more democratic
| in their attitudes, even if their particular prescriptions
| are often foolish.
|
| I once read an article breaking the hard-hitting (and
| _outrageous!_ ) news that the Dallas Cowboys provide their
| cheerleaders with a handbook on how to dress appropriately,
| groom appropriately, and maintain a standard of personal
| hygiene that is adequate for "polite company". I had a
| similar reaction to that as Mark Liberman had to the
| descriptivist attitude toward hypercorrection.
|
| Do you want to judge your candidates by how willing and able
| they are to conform to workplace dress norms? Then include an
| attachment when you invite them for an interview specifying
| how you want them to dress.
|
| Or is it more that you're uncomfortable with the idea of
| hiring someone who doesn't know -- as they obviously should
| -- what you feel is appropriate in your employees' dress?
| rschachte wrote:
| I don't know about you, but I just interviewed in a black
| tshirt at FAANG and got an offer. What does dress have to do
| with anything?
| latenightcoding wrote:
| FAANGs have been very liberal about that for many years
| now, I don't think that is a good example.
| soneca wrote:
| _"basic professionalism"_ means different things for
| different people.
|
| For me it means show up on time. If it is an online
| interview, one or two minutes late is ok because sometimes
| Zoom/Google Meet/etc behave weirdly. As for dress code, it
| just mean not showing up in pijama or similar. If the clothes
| are socially acceptable to wear in public, that's enough
| professionalism. Style is just personal preference, not
| professionalism.
| alar44 wrote:
| Only in the tech sector do we think we should be able to show
| up with a T-shirt and greasy hair.
|
| Looks/hygiene/culture fit is important and there isn't a single
| field where it isn't.
|
| If you can be bothered to try to fit in a little bit, it goes a
| long way. Otherwise, feel free to be unemployed and bitch about
| it in your basement while the world moves on.
| TheOtherHobbes wrote:
| T-shirt and greasy hair are as much a uniform and a
| declaration of tribal orientation as a business suit is.
|
| Clothes are _always_ a uniform and a social signal, whether
| or not they 're formally labelled as such.
|
| It's also one of the covert reasons age is an issue. It's not
| about competence, it's about the fact that it's very
| difficult to have equal relationships with people who are the
| same age as your parents or kids. An age gap that wide goes
| with a generation gap in expected behaviours, cultural
| references, implied ethics - and more, including default
| problem solving habits.
|
| It would be good if this wasn't true, but it's hard to see
| how it can be avoided. It would take extremely unusual
| maturity and self-awareness not to be influenced by it in
| either direction.
|
| It's not that it can't be made to work, but I don't think it
| can be made to work _easily_. It 's an extra level of
| friction, which is why it's an unpopular option when hiring
| teams.
|
| TBH I suspect that anyone over - say - 40 is probably best
| off hiring themselves out as a consultant rather than trying
| to find work as a full-timer on a relatively young team.
| Consultancy isn't just professionally distinct, it creates a
| different social dynamic which seems to be easier for
| everyone.
| a9h74j wrote:
| > Clothes are always a uniform and a social signal, whether
| or not they're formally labelled as such.
|
| As a product of the 1960s there was a reaction by lefty
| columnist Paul Krassner, IIRC. He referred (if it wasn't
| someone else who popularized this) to _grey flannel
| sandals_. A take-off on the standard criticism of "grey
| flannel suits.
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| I agree that the scruffy tech is a uniform of it's own. I
| used to do it consciously myself, partly as a "joking but
| really". Different images for different audiences or
| different aims.
|
| As for friction, that diversity should be actively saught,
| not allowed through blindness.
|
| That friction and diversity of approach and standards and
| reasoning is a good thing. I'm over 50 now so now I'm
| almost not allowed to express such reasoning because it is
| taken as self serving, but when I was 30 the old-timers in
| my shop were the people I admired the most, still do. Even
| though yes there were a few differences of opinion and
| approach that never really went away. I picked my battles
| instead of being a baby about every single thing, and they
| in turn actually respected my input when I decided to take
| stance on something, state my case, and force us both to
| explain and defend the different positions and hash it out.
| Either I convinced them or they convinced me, and whichever
| way that went, we did that.
|
| There were a few things where neither convinced the other,
| but, really very few. It's tolerable and worth it. I got
| way more out of working with these people, and so did the
| company and our customers.
|
| I don't think I was a incredibly mature 30 year old. I
| mean, I've seen some of my old newsgroup posts. I really
| wasn't :)
| mtrower wrote:
| ???
|
| Showing up _not_ looking like this, can also cause you to not
| get hired. Discrimination on non-performance factors is real
| on all sides of the fence.
|
| Anyway this isn't the point; the point was that it's sad you
| need to hide your age using clothing.
| alar44 wrote:
| It not hiding your age. It's showing that you are still in
| touch with new things and able to go with the flow. It's
| not even that hard. If you're 55, just don't show up with a
| baggy suit and fat tie you bought in the 80s. This is good
| advice for _anyone_ - know how to dress for an interview.
| rdl wrote:
| I try to do voice-only calls wherever possible, especially for
| hiring. (and text > voice!). Especially for initial screening;
| less annoying as the hiring manager, and also protects us
| somewhat from some discrimination claims (obviously only one
| element of that, and neither necessary nor sufficient on its
| own)
| sieabahlpark wrote:
| ismaildonmez wrote:
| > Many orchestras switched to blind auditions, and it
| drastically increased the number of female musicians.
|
| This is incorrect, see
| https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2019/05/11/did-blind-...
| sarchertech wrote:
| That blog post isn't nearly strong enough to support the
| statement that "this is incorrect".
|
| The conclusion of the unrefereed blog post is merely the much
| more equivocal:
|
| " What about that much-publicized "50 percent" claim, or for
| that matter the not-so-well-publicized but even more dramatic
| "increases by severalfold"? I have no idea. I'll reserve
| judgment until someone can show me where that result appears
| in the published paper. It's gotta be there somewhere."
| ismaildonmez wrote:
| You should have quoted the sentence just before:
|
| > I agree that blind auditions can make sense--even if they
| do not have the large effects claimed in that 2000 paper,
| or indeed even if they have no aggregate relative effects
| on men and women at all.
|
| so, what the OP said
|
| > Many orchestras switched to blind auditions, and it
| drastically increased the number of female musicians.
|
| is incorrect because quoting again from the article:
|
| > or indeed even if they have no aggregate relative effects
| on men and women at all.
| lolinder wrote:
| A clause that begins with "even if" is a hypothetical and
| should not be taken as declarative. The author is saying
| that they don't know whether the number in question is
| correct, they're not saying that they believe it to be
| incorrect. Hence "I'll reserve judgment".
|
| The bit starting with "even if" is just saying that it
| doesn't matter to them: either way they're still in favor
| of blind auditions.
| kaycebasques wrote:
| Back when I was a hiring manager I also asked my recruiters to
| obscure the name of the candidate. E.g. always referring to
| them by their initials and blacking out their name on their
| resume. I was thinking about the experiment [1] where
| researchers found that the whiteness of your name affected how
| likely companies were to follow-up to your job application.
|
| +1 to the general idea that the interview process should remove
| as much unconscious bias as possible.
|
| [1] If I recall correctly the researchers submitted the exact
| same resume to many companies. The only variable was the name.
| E.g. "John Franklin" versus "Imani Jordan".
| rajin444 wrote:
| > unconscious bias
|
| When did this become an accepted term? I didn't know our
| science had advanced enough to explain how unconscious bias
| happens. AFAIK we can run some experiments and observe
| results, but can't explain the underlying biology as to why
| we observed those results.
| l33t2328 wrote:
| If you asked the interviewers, they would generally say
| that they're unaware of themselves being biased, thereby
| making their bias unconscious.
| 1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote:
| "Read this source code and tell me the age of the person who
| wrote it, when it was written."
| joejerryronnie wrote:
| The age of the coder is directly proportional to the number
| of comments included in the code.
| fortran77 wrote:
| > Many orchestras switched to blind auditions, and it
| drastically increased the number of female musicians.
|
| Sadly, there's talk of going back to sighted auditions:
|
| See: https://americanorchestras.org/wp-
| content/uploads/2021/05/Re...
|
| and https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/arts/music/blind-
| audition...
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > Many orchestras switched to blind auditions, and it
| drastically increased the number of female musicians.
|
| > https://gap.hks.harvard.edu/orchestrating-impartiality-
| impac...
|
| That study made a big splash with a lot of claims that were
| unconnected to the data.
|
| https://jsmp.dk/posts/2019-05-12-blindauditions/
|
| The number of female musicians in orchestras increased, but we
| can't actually attribute that to the audition process.
| lr4444lr wrote:
| I disagree that it's terrible. If someone 23 years old came
| into a job interview wearing mid 20th century business attire
| and hair/glasses while everyone else was adopting modern dress,
| I think all else equal that should count against him. Old age
| is not excuse for knowing how to fit in with the things you
| have the power to change.
| itronitron wrote:
| Mid 20th century business attire for men is very much out,
| but for women it would register as hip and fashionable.
| [deleted]
| t_mann wrote:
| This advice is far too generic to be of much use to software
| engineers or any other specific profession, I'm afraid. The only
| probably useful hint is to not look old by using means of
| communication that peaked in popularity long time ago.
| [deleted]
| diavelguru wrote:
| I've found it interesting that smart young startup entrepreneurs
| see a resume that has over 20 years experience and instead of
| seeing a dinosaur they see the experience and future guidance to
| help them in their endeavors.
| vmception wrote:
| For developers, I mostly see non-consensus opinions getting them
| axed.
|
| Like okay, you can't really claim _age_ discrimination when you
| spent the last 20 minutes railing against javascript and single
| page applications
| rootusrootus wrote:
| OTOH, I wouldn't hire anybody who thought JS was some kind of
| perfection and that chasing frameworks was the way things
| should be. I may not want to hear 10 minutes of bitching about
| SPAs, but I'd love to have a two minute rant about how much
| callbacks suck sometimes, and how promises are better but not
| better, and async is lipstick on a pig. I like skepticism as
| long as it doesn't result in refusal to work with a particular
| technology, and when it's backed up by knowledge.
| LiquidPolymer wrote:
| I'm 58 and have to turn down work (I'm a photographer/producer
| for over 30 years). Obviously personality and looks can combine
| for a powerful effect in the hiring process. But one thing we do
| have control over is physical fitness.
|
| This comes from a man who does not like exercise, and has a
| genetic tendency to severe obesity (if family is any indication).
|
| Five days a week you will find me sprinting up hills around my
| neighborhood, using bands and weights for resistant training, and
| doing breathing exercises. I eat one or two meals a day.
|
| I'm lean, toned, and walk with speed, energy and purpose.
|
| I'm not exactly good looking, and I can occasionally be socially
| awkward - but I'm fit, respectful and wear tasteful attire.
|
| Personally, I think this gives me a giant advantage in my age
| cohort where most men waddle around like they are 11 months
| pregnant and you can hear their breathing from 60 feet away. I
| hear a lot of guys in this category counting down the days till
| retirement.
|
| I dislike exercise but have practiced fitness training for
| decades. The physical and mental benefits are well known. I think
| the impression it makes is off the charts when you present as an
| older man with discipline and intellect.
|
| I have an aunt who is deeply concerned for my health because I'm
| too small in her opinion (food = love). Yet her son, my cousin
| (who she considers a strapping example of manhood), just went on
| SS disability after being a tow truck driver for decades. He just
| got too fat to do the job. Nobody would hire him - they just see
| a giant medical liability.
|
| We have control over fitness regardless of looks, and it can make
| a difference.
| roschdal wrote:
| The capitalist society in USA is ageist.
| travisgriggs wrote:
| Just last night, I listened to my son explain the long and
| rigorous process that he watched senior faculty at a top 10
| university go through in selecting post grad students and
| research assistants. I've been part of the "try to pick the best
| candidate" process for many years in professional, church, and
| community institutions.
|
| Of late, I'm beginning to suspect that there are basically two
| camps in this whole game.
|
| 1. The optimistic one that believes rigorous evaluations and
| screening are worth the effort. They may even accept some of the
| failures, but basically believe we're still getting there, we'll
| figure this out. It's better than doing nothing.
|
| 2. The near nihilistic group that basically worries the whole
| process creates a lot of heat but sheds very little light. That
| often these choices backfire on us, that our prejudices are our
| own worst enemies, that while we have some wins in steering the
| "right" choice, taken overall as a net, it's not really any
| better than just random luck of the draw.
|
| For many years I think I was camp 1. I worry of late that camp 2
| is looking more and more like the reality. Maybe I'm just down
| about this whole process today.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| Every place I've ever worked says "we only hire the best". I
| don't recall anyone saying "we intend to hire average people".
| It's sort of like Lake Woebegon where all the children are
| above average.
| scruple wrote:
| Yeah, but it's the best of their availabile options. No
| TechCo or startup that I've seen is capable of admitting to
| themselves that they're a Pony league baseball team in
| southern Ohio and not the LA Dodgers.
| mrj wrote:
| I worked at a Bank before at this was the hiring plan. Simply
| fill the seats and expect a strong(er) manager to guide the
| output. Hiring the best simply wasn't an option in most
| cases, but one good hire was expected to closely monitor and
| correct the output from many.
|
| This didn't work out very well in practice. The efforts of
| one bad programmer's output can easily max out two people to
| clean it up. So the Bank had mostly given up on producing its
| own code and tried to outsource or buy everything it could.
| tomrod wrote:
| Culturally, I like the emphasis on "every hire increases the
| average in the long run."
|
| When the project or product has the capacity, then when I
| hire folks I am way less concerned with what they can do
| immediately today and more interested in what they can do
| after 3 to 6 months of consistent, earnest growth. If they
| have critical skillsets and capabilities that are crucial and
| needed immediately, that's a wonderful thing too, but cross-
| skilling and training are really needed to prevent those
| kinds of situations from occuring generally.
| kwertyoowiyop wrote:
| The guy in the top picture looks like he's just cleaned out his
| desk after being laid off.
| jaclaz wrote:
| Caption is:
|
| a man is smiling while holding a box outside of an elevator
|
| Either he is relieved and happy to go elsewhere or he is still
| shocked (as he seemingly forgot his jacket).
|
| More seriously, while I can understand how to "fill" the page
| an image is _sometimes_ needed, I seem to notice that lately a
| lot of pages sport these "vague" stock images that mean
| nothing or nothing connected to the actual article/theme
| discussed.
| karmakaze wrote:
| I was once 'laid off' early from a consulting contract that
| was renewed too many times. I was approached very sensitively
| to be handed the 'bad news' and my immediate response was
| "fantastic" since I'd been bored to tears for months at my
| desk looking/waiting for more work.
|
| The odd bit was that they had used some data of my web
| browsing habits during this downtime as being against policy
| to cover their asses. So technically I was let go for 'doing
| math' at work found on Project Euler[0].
|
| [0] https://projecteuler.net/
| zeusk wrote:
| Maybe it's his first day at the new job
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| The smile says he welcomed the severance package though!
| georgia_peach wrote:
| Surprising / not surprising how woke coastal hiring practice
| coincides with blatant age discrimination. It wasn't that long
| ago that being on the wrong side of 25 put everything on "hard
| mode". Now it's more like 35-45, if only because the powers-that-
| be got older.
|
| https://www.mo4tech.com/the-father-of-java-cant-escape-age-d...
| 1048576 wrote:
| _Surprising / not surprising how woke coastal hiring practice
| coincides with blatant age discrimination._
|
| "Woke" has nothing to do with it. That's a completely separate
| thing. Also, it doesn't exist. Black people don't use it
| anymore ("woke" came out of AAVE, before it became something
| for Tucker Carlson to trigger the right with) and most ardent
| leftists recognize that "woke capitalism" is strictly a
| performance.
|
| Companies aren't going "woke" because they want to impose blue-
| state social justice on the population. They're doing this
| because (a) it's a way to make themselves look better in a
| country that is 2:1 against racism, sexism, transphobia, et al,
| without actually changing anything about how they operate, and
| (b) this "woke"/CRT bugbear is just another tool the very rich
| use to divide working people against each other.
|
| Ageism is similar. Nothing makes capitalists happier than for
| us old working people and the young working people to hate each
| other. But we shouldn't. We're on the same team.
| georgia_peach wrote:
| ljp_206 wrote:
| A "strongly implied message," whether it's truly there or
| not, does not "clear cut hypocrisy" make. This reminds me
| of a similar meme in recent/current cultural memory: 'Anti-
| woke' types love to claim that "Black Lives Matter" means
| or strongly implies that 'all lives' do not. There are many
| discussions about why this simply isn't the case.
|
| To some, though, it may very well be true. But that's an
| issue with today's slogan- and owning-the-other-side- based
| discourse. For what it's worth, I agree with you that
| merits alone should make the hiring decision.
|
| As someone you'd probably label "woke," I think we should
| also acknowledge that it is entirely possible and common
| that inherent bias makes that difficult for white people in
| hiring positions. Yes, that can happen with ageism as well.
| georgia_peach wrote:
| It is a blatant contradiction. " _We don 't
| discriminate_," directly followed by discrimination
| against men, whites, asians, and the old. But since it's
| 2022 now, still advocating for strict meritocracy means
| I'm a nazi. I never thought it would happen so
| accidentally!
| issa wrote:
| Whenever people post messages like this I am genuinely
| curious to hear what their solutions to an unjust system
| are. If a society is unequal, then a "strict meritocracy"
| means it will stay that way essentially forever, right?
| So how would you solve current inequality?
| georgia_peach wrote:
| "unjust system" is mere opinion. In my short time on this
| earth, I've seen broke immigrants who barely know english
| reach the heights, and I've seen the children of doctors
| & lawyers (upon whom no expense was spared) hit rock-
| bottom.
|
| Every choice we make is like compound interest. Make
| choices that are 1% better, and over time, the cream will
| rise to the top. Make choices that are 1% worse, end up
| on Maury or Springer.
|
| And this "social justice," this putting of fingers upon
| the scales, is a kangaroo court. Of all the effort that
| has been expended to get more minorities & women into
| software, how much effort has been spent to get more
| asians into the NFL & NBA? It is no justice. It is that
| there are more black & women voters than there are asian
| ones. It is the mob voting itself a benefit.
| issa wrote:
| Are you aware that there were laws specifically targeting
| black people and women for hundreds of years in this
| country? Do you believe the fix for that is to simply not
| address it in any meaningful way? If not, what do you
| suggest?
| georgia_peach wrote:
| The Jews were also targeted. It didn't stop them.
|
| I don't see how what happened to my granddaddy, for good
| or for ill, has any bearing on my ability to practice,
| practice, practice, get good, and make it. As of 2015-16,
| NBA was 81.7% black.
|
| Software is no different. The best tools are free.
| Internet is near-ubiquitous. A serviceable machine can be
| had for lawn-mowing money. There is no excuse.
| 1048576 wrote:
| None of this addresses the real reasons why it's hard to get
| hired after 50 (actually, it starts in the mid-30s). It's not
| that older people are always at technology (they aren't) or that
| young workers don't want them around (they do). It's that bosses
| assume that anyone who isn't one of them by a certain age is
| either embittered or was anti-authoritarian from the start. Which
| isn't false.
|
| To be honest, the old people who are obviously fading might be an
| easier sell to bosses than the ones who are 50, 60, 70+ and still
| rock solid, because with them, you really have to wonder what
| went wrong that they're still in the running for subordinate
| positions. (I mean, there could be--often are--a million reasons
| why an excellent person's career might go sideways, but bosses
| aren't usually the forgiving type. They still want to believe the
| system works, because they are the system.)
|
| Bosses want to feel young again, but they also know that
| workplace subordination is humiliating and that older people are
| likely to have figured this fact out, while young people still
| think they're going to be invited to join the execs within 3
| years (which the vast majority of them won't).
| brian_cunnie wrote:
| > ... they're still in the running for subordinate positions
|
| I think that statement does a disservice to being a software
| engineer, and is off the mark as well.
|
| At my company (VMware), I know at least one Senior Director and
| three other Directors (Matthew K., David S., Rajan A., and Ryan
| R.)who abdicated their managerial role in favor of being an
| individual contributor for the simple reason that it was much
| more enjoyable, not because they're "embittered" or "anti-
| authoritarian".
|
| For a more high-profile example, Mitch Hashimoto of Hashicorp
| went back to being an indicvidual contributor.
|
| And, on a personal note, I'm 58 & I love engineering -- it's
| fun. I like software, and I'm happy being a developer. I don't
| think I'd enjoy being a manager, and am not interested in
| finding out.
| jeffbee wrote:
| We are very lucky to be in an industry where being a manager
| is recognized as a _different job_ instead of a superior
| promotion from individual contributor. There still are, of
| course, software companies that expect to promote ICs to
| managers, but in this job market you can simply leave those
| companies.
| kevinpet wrote:
| I think we're getting there. One big reason everyone assumes
| tech workers are all young is because tech has been growing
| so rapidly. I expect to be one of the old farts in a few
| years because it's still growing. The next generation might
| find that they have a more mixed workforce, where when they
| come into a company most of their coworkers are substantially
| older than them, as most office jobs were for most people for
| most of history.
| ushakov wrote:
| maybe it's because older people tend to have more leverage,
| options and paid mortgage/debts?
|
| unlike younger people who don't and thus are more vulnerable to
| corporate exploitation
|
| just a theory
| stemlord wrote:
| But isn't being the boss often a significantly different
| discipline? My boss deals with politics, business strategy and
| resource coordination. I deal with concrete engineering/design
| challenges. Sure there's overlap between what we do but it
| should be clear that not everyone would want to transition from
| one to the other.
| tbihl wrote:
| Basically the answer to your question is that too little of
| any problem is engineering to justify someone experienced
| remaining as _just_ an engineer. As you get more senior, you
| should be knowledgeable and experienced enough to be able to
| coordinate the efforts of other engineers and mentor (or
| facilitate mentoring of) junior members of the team. And you
| should be able to cooperate (or battle) with other sections
| of your organization for resources and to convey progress on
| your projects.
|
| Everyone would like the person doing the above to be someone
| intimately familiar with and good at the work they're
| managing, or else everyone is pointy haired boss and we all
| have to complain about how MBAs are ruining our lives...
| onionisafruit wrote:
| Just because you have the ability to do all those things
| you listed doesn't mean you need to do them. It's a valid
| choice to continue the relatively lower stress job of a
| software engineer.
| tbihl wrote:
| You would need to define an _invalid_ choice before such
| a discussion could proceed.
| greenyoda wrote:
| > _As you get more senior, you should be knowledgeable and
| experienced enough to be able to coordinate the efforts of
| other engineers and mentor (or facilitate mentoring of)
| junior members of the team. And you should be able to
| cooperate (or battle) with other sections of your
| organization for resources and to convey progress on your
| projects._
|
| I agree that those tasks are important, but none of them
| require being a manager who is formally someone's boss
| (hires, fires, does performance reviews, deals with HR
| issues, etc.). I didn't like being peoples' boss, so I
| stepped down from my management job years ago to become a
| developer again. But as a very senior developer, I've done
| all of those other things (mentoring, coordination,
| cooperation, etc.).
| [deleted]
| kodah wrote:
| > To be honest, the old people who are obviously fading might
| be an easier sell to bosses than the ones who are 50, 60, 70+
| and still rock solid, because with them, you really have to
| wonder what went wrong that they're still in the running for
| subordinate positions. (I mean, there could be--often are--a
| million reasons why an excellent person's career might go
| sideways, but bosses aren't usually the forgiving type. They
| still want to believe the system works, because they are the
| system.)
|
| Actually, you're engaging in the bias _right now_. I don 't
| ever plan on getting out of IC/Engineering. Stop assuming
| that's something everyone wants to do.
| bestouff wrote:
| I did it already ("because of my experience" it was presented
| to me as the natural way forward). Had to fire someone, lost
| my sleep for a few days because of that. Back to engineering
| roles which I enjoy much more anyway
| kodah wrote:
| Sorry you had to deal with that, but I'm glad you're back
| in the pilots seat!
| JackFr wrote:
| > To be honest, the old people who are obviously fading might
| be an easier sell to bosses than the ones who are 50, 60, 70+
| and still rock solid, because with them, you really have to
| wonder what went wrong that they're still in the running for
| subordinate positions.
|
| Honestly that's why a lot of people do consulting gigs. It's a
| lot easier to say it was a choice than to explain how you're a
| 54 year old AVP.
| rufus_foreman wrote:
| >> they're still in the running for subordinate positions
|
| Old man, over 50. I still write code. Still getting paid. It's
| not a subordinate position. It's my thing that I do.
| erwincoumans wrote:
| Good tips, and also:
|
| * Stay up-to-date on the latest tech
|
| * Stay curious
|
| * Keep working with colleagues of all ages, from interns to older
| colleagues.
| bombcar wrote:
| Don't forget
|
| * Be open and admit the areas you're expert in even if they're
| not popular - Java and COBOL still get hired
| ja27 wrote:
| I was on-site at a power company. One of their older COBOL
| programmers was retiring that week. The person taking over
| his COBOL job? His son.
| synergy20 wrote:
| On the other hand I have 3 colleagues in their 70s working in a
| silicon design startup, they can still design even do some coding
| debugging, well paid too.
|
| They're all technical and bored at retirement, I feel they're
| like those college professors that are old but capable, so they
| can be employed, some are actually sought after.
|
| sure it's challenging to get into FAANG(due to their leetcode
| barrier) but there are many other companies 50s/60s can work for.
| ransom1538 wrote:
| FAANG hiring is just different. They have a vast system of
| middle management ready to intake juniors, spit out the bad,
| promote the good. At this point it's a machine. Really senior
| people (by position) don't fit into this mold. There are
| exceptions, eg if the senior has a famous product or following
| -> as this will help intake more juniors into mega corp.
| synergy20 wrote:
| that makes sense, startup and many others companies do not
| have lots of those middle-level management, so you're
| expected to be self-reliant from the start, where senior and
| experience hires fit well.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| So someone in their 40s or 50s shouldn't do the leetcode
| grind and take a shot at a FAANG job? I hear it argued both
| ways, sounds like you're suggesting it's pointless.
| compiler-guy wrote:
| I got into Google in my forties and it wasn't a big deal at
| all. I do have a fairly specialized skill set and the
| demand is always high, but as far as I can tell, age didn't
| come into it.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| I know someone who was hired at Google right about the time
| he hit 60. Really smart guy which is how he got in, I
| suppose. He left after a couple of years. He hated it. Said
| the ageism was rampant and they didn't even try to hide it.
|
| I know another guy who is a top C++ developer (books,
| conference talks) who started at Google when he was around
| 45. Similar story. He hated it, left after a couple of
| years and is now Chief Scientist at a much smaller software
| company - a gig he seems to relish.
|
| So you could try to get in in your 40s or 50s, but it's
| likely that the culture will not agree with you.
| a9h74j wrote:
| Not that I would have qualified, but years and years ago
| when I looked at a Google recruiting page, it featured a
| picture of "field hockey in the parking lot at
| lunchtime", IIRC. I took that as a hint about age
| preferences.
| brian_cunnie wrote:
| [for the record, I'm 58 & and an active software developer]
|
| There are two points I'd like to add:
|
| My brain isn't as elastic as a younger programmer's. My brother,
| a software developer close to my age, once said, "It's as if I
| used to have 20 registers, and now I'm down to 12". I can't keep
| as much in my head as once. My twenty-something co-worker,
| Belinda, once remarked, "It takes you a while to read code &
| understand what it's doing". She was right. Using solely that
| metric (elasticity), I'd have to say that the forty-year-old
| version of myself was faster than the fifty-eight-year-old
| version.
|
| The other point I'd like to make is that there's a certain class
| of developer who has grown tired of developing & learning new
| skills, but doesn't want to retire. I remember my co-worker Larry
| would spend far too much time reminiscing about 640k computers
| and showing pictures of his grand kids. He didn't seem to want to
| work much. They let him go, and though I liked him personally, I
| think management made the right decision.
| darreld wrote:
| I'm 65 and started a new job as a programmer a few weeks ago. I
| can relate to your brain elasticity issues for sure. I am
| really enjoying the new team and the work is fun but it does
| take its toll on my brain. By the end of a full day of coding
| or troubleshooting my brain feels... depleted. By friday I find
| it more difficult than in the past to quickly remember things.
|
| I am doing well in the job and, due to a long career, have
| experience in a lot of the things they need. I am also still
| excited about learning new skills and toolsets and I'm in the
| right place for it.
|
| But I do feel that the brain depletion, it feels like I have
| used something up - glycogen or something, is noticeable.
|
| Any OTC recommendations would be appreciated.
| jasfi wrote:
| I'm 42. I use mental math to stay sharp. Exercise and diet
| also make a difference.
| agumonkey wrote:
| What about abstract thinking ? at 23 I used to rush through
| never ending streams of programming ideas, most of them were
| shallow if not stupid. I'm "slow" now, but in a "make haste
| slowly".. I take time to grasp higher level, more precise ideas
| instead of running head down.
|
| The bit about the existential shift in priorities rings true to
| me. At 20 you dream about mastering the future, at 40 you
| couldn't care less.
| JakeAl wrote:
| For males over a certain age, your mental acuity drop may be
| related to decreasing testosterone levels. Have your levels
| checked out. Medication may give you back that edge you noticed
| you are missing.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| I am soon-to-be 44.
|
| I felt the same process creeping on me in my late 30s. Since
| then, I started experimenting with some OTC drugs (to be
| concrete: Nicotinamide Riboside, Pterostilbene and Spermidine).
| It is my impression that the effect has largely gone away.
| People that I meet after a long time tend to remark that I am
| noticeably more energetic, too.
|
| A combination of NR and Pterostilbene under the name EH301 was
| recently trialled in Spain for treatment of ALS (yes, that ALS)
| with remarkably good results [0], though the study was small. A
| much bigger study is now underway in Norway [1]. If this combo
| can influence a neurodegenerative disease positively, it may
| help the brain in general.
|
| But I do not want to sound as a huckster for both. This is a
| huge _if_ and it is possible that I am just another case of a
| placebo effect.
|
| [0] https://www.alzforum.org/news/research-news/small-trial-
| eh30...
|
| [1] https://ichgcp.net/clinical-trials-registry/NCT04562831
| tomrod wrote:
| You know, I'm hitting that point now myself. How do you find
| trusted supplement providers?
| inglor_cz wrote:
| So for Pterostilbene, I used a German brand Hepatica which
| seems to have a good reputation. (I live next to Germany.)
|
| Spermidine is so cheap and easy to manufacture that I doubt
| that there are fake products out there; yet another German
| company (Green Naturals.)
|
| As for NR, I chose Tru Niagen (ChromaDex), a well-known
| brand. It is expensive, though. By far the most expensive
| of the three supplements.
| secondcoming wrote:
| I never thought I'd see the day when someone recommends
| performance enhancing drugs to stay competitive as a software
| developer.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| Not really drugs. Supplements that the nootropics community
| are pushing. They might work and they might not - there's
| not a lot of double-blind studies on these things yet. The
| ones that have been done show mixed results.
| Aromasin wrote:
| Unless you're being sarcastic, we must work in very
| different places. I can't tell you how many times I've had
| discussions with colleagues at different roles about our
| Nootropics stack.
| oblio wrote:
| I guess the world is a big place.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| TBH I wasn't interested in them for my development skills.
| I was more interested in general effects of NAD+ precursor
| supplementation. I sometimes hang out with the longevity
| crowd and try out methods that do not sound too dangerous
| (intermittent fasting etc.)
| devnulll wrote:
| The software engineering jobs you get in your 40s and 50s
| pay more than most NBA of NFL players will every make.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| Not everywhere.
| chrismcb wrote:
| Median salary of nfl player is about 850k. Minimum salary
| of a rookie is 435k. NBA median is 3.8 million. Minimum
| is 925k Please tell me where I can make this type of
| money as a software engineer.
| saganus wrote:
| How so?
|
| By "most players" you mean excluding the very top, right?
| hirundo wrote:
| I'm 59 you young whippersnapper, and one thing I've learned in
| all those extra months is that my inelastic brain has some
| useful ruts carved in it, such that I can bang out much code in
| a fraction of the time that I used to, just because I've done
| so many similar things before and have grown my toolkit. And
| it's lower stress/effort work at the same time, almost on
| autopilot for swaths of it.
|
| Maybe I'm at a disadvantage to a young dev in some greenfield
| on a fresh stack. But I've been in a lot of greenfields and
| fresh stacks too, and the patterns repeat.
|
| That said someday my utility will drop below my cost. I may not
| _want_ to notice, but my compiler will tell me. I can't lie to
| the compiler. When my brain can't build any more my commits
| won't build anymore, it isn't very subtle.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| I'm also 58 and still mostly active in software development. I
| say "mostly" because I did give early retirement a try - it
| lasted about 2 years and then my current job came along, looked
| really interesting and here I am.
|
| It's not just my brain that's not as elastic - my body isn't so
| elastic anymore either. I can't sit for more than an hour or so
| before I've gotta get up and take a foam-roller break. Lots of
| aches and pains that I'm finding are causing me to lose focus.
|
| After ~2 years of not working I found that I didn't much care
| for it - I needed more purpose or something. Just felt like I
| was floating along not going anywhere. I think the happy medium
| would be to work 3 days/week. I could do that indefinitely. Not
| really be retired and not really be working full time. It would
| work monetarily as well since the house is nearly paid off and
| we have no other debt. But software development gigs where you
| only work 24hrs/week seem to be quite rare.
| parhamn wrote:
| Trung Phan recently wrote an article on the rise of pseudonyms in
| social media and how it leads to meritocracy [1]. I think a
| similar thing will be huge for this sort of ageism and odd
| interview practices.
|
| I think the next job board we'll see is "hiring anonymous". Still
| remains to resolve the legal part, perhaps some intermediary
| company can handle the anonymization(verify identity and
| credentials and handle govt paperwork). I think there will be
| corporate incentive to do this as it completely gives companies
| plausible deniability around their hiring practices.
|
| [1]
| https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-04-27/don-t-...
| shadowofneptune wrote:
| The article doesn't really mention what fields it's concerned
| about. Healthcare trends much older, for instance (https://www.jo
| urnalofnursingregulation.com/article/S2155-825...). I'd think be
| helpful to know which fields have it worse, no?
|
| Some of the advice also seems odd: "For instance, if your resume
| still includes your street address or an older email account
| (such as AOL or Yahoo)." Yahoo is the second-most popular email
| provider and I doubt it would really send off an alarm bell for a
| recruiter. Why not include your street address on a formal
| document like a resume, anyway?
| rikroots wrote:
| > Why not include your street address on a formal document like
| a resume, anyway?
|
| Sadly we live in a world where people still run the risk of
| being judged on the basis of the neighbourhood they live in,
| rather than the skills they can bring to a job. By including a
| street address or postcode in our resumes, we invite people (or
| more often, nowadays, ML-based algorithms) to make sweeping
| judgements about us before we even reach the first stage of the
| hiring process.
| kodah wrote:
| I've openly heard managers talk about "experience" in sub for
| age, eg: "I think this person has too much experience for this
| role" (when talking about a very senior role).
|
| My best advice is to engage HR right away if you hear this kind
| of stuff. A fair amount of HR folks are older and will jump right
| on this kind of behavior.
| solumos wrote:
| Similarly, I've seen candidates ruled out because they have a
| lot of experience without career progression after a certain
| point - "ah, he's been in the same senior role for 8 years?
| Must be something wrong with him"
| georgia_peach wrote:
| Why work for/under people who would do you that way? There's
| plenty of money to be made out there. If I have too much
| "experience," they'll just have to miss out on it.
| kodah wrote:
| I'm a lead. Getting another lead role would be difficult.
| Managers in tech are uniformly bad in my experience. If I
| don't tolerate this then I'll have to tolerate some other
| form of ridiculousness, but while I'm young I can listen for
| the dog whistles and report them.
|
| Edit: these kinds of managers will always screw you _one day_
| ; usually that day is a day when your interests aren't as
| useful to them. It's a mentality (and behavior pattern) that
| Succession does a fantastic job of roasting. The trick is to
| read the writing on the wall and the room, find a new job,
| and bring all the homies.
|
| This is why I refer to software as a team sport.
| DoingIsLearning wrote:
| It's funny because I would interpret those exact words "I think
| this person has too much experience for this role", as "The
| budget I have for the position is not enough to afford this
| person".
|
| But maybe you're right that it's ageism and I just assume the
| best in people.
| [deleted]
| largbae wrote:
| #4, use your network, should be #1. If you are 50 and you did not
| just make a drastic career change, you probably know some former
| colleagues who enjoyed working with you in the past.
|
| It often feels awkward to directly ask someone for work. So
| instead, ask if they can refer you to their friends, and you may
| be surprised how many volunteer a leg up on a position to work
| directly with them instead.
| abirch wrote:
| I agree about the network. If you're not mentoring younger
| people and helping them in your 30s and 40s the future may not
| be so bright.
| inside_out_life wrote:
| I'm considering myself lucky, but I've got hired two months ago,
| remotely, without revealing my age or anyone caring how I look.
| I'm 41. Meetings are voice only. I'm yet to meet anyone from the
| team face to face, yet I'm not worried about it, as I've been
| preserving myself well.
| somethoughts wrote:
| I have to think there is some sort of decently lucrative niche
| that could combine a legacy software stack plus cloud deployment
| knowledge. Something like:
|
| - Deploy an enterprise Cobol banking application using Kubernetes
| and add support for bitcoin transactions
|
| - Java Struts to support iOS/Android Mobile Apps for a Healthcare
| Insurance app
|
| - Legacy Windows Apps to Azure
|
| Particularly in the banking, finance and medical fields.
| netfortius wrote:
| US centric article. I am over the article mentioned age by quite
| a few years, and since arriving in France I got job offers (and
| accepted one), without "hiding" anything in my resume (education
| w/dates, complete experience w/dates + up-to-date picture in
| resume).
|
| BTW: I was member of AARP until last year, in the US. Wasted
| money + junk mail every once in a while...
| gniv wrote:
| How did you find these offers? I'm planning to move to France
| (from US) and to look for jobs once I learn French well. Feel
| free to email me if you don't want to share publicly.
| netfortius wrote:
| No secret :-) I changed my profile in LinkedIn to mention new
| location (France) and added "Freelance/Consulting in
| sabbatical". Had absolutely no intention to get a job,
| originally (my sabbatical was in fact a sort of pre-
| retirement/FIRE), but when I started getting DMs in LinkedIn
| I became curious. A few calls with some folks, with one
| thread of conversations which seemed too interesting to not
| pursue - job offer.
| gniv wrote:
| Thanks! I'm in a similar situation. Good tip with
| "sabbatical". I should do the same.
| m0llusk wrote:
| Interesting dissonance here in that being over fifty means care
| needs to be taken while currently there is also talk of a hiring
| crunch because of a lack of qualified talent. It seems fairly
| obvious that something is going wrong, likely with genuinely
| qualified people's resumes getting spit out of the funnel
| prematurely.
| YeGoblynQueenne wrote:
| I don't know about secrets, but this is my five-part _plan_ for
| getting hired after fifty:
|
| 1. Know Cobol
|
| 2. Know JCL
|
| 3. Know ISPF
|
| 4. Know Rexx
|
| 5. Know EZY
|
| Oh, btw:
|
| >> 5. Polish Up Your Appearance
|
| Wahahahaha.
|
| A joke, right?
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