[HN Gopher] Maslow never proposed a pyramid
___________________________________________________________________
Maslow never proposed a pyramid
Author : penetralium
Score : 115 points
Date : 2022-04-29 17:34 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (twitter.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (twitter.com)
| cecilpl2 wrote:
| Ideas and sayings evolve and grow over time, becoming pithier and
| more accessible.
|
| Few ideas are born into the world fully-formed, but we should
| still attribute them to those that birthed them.
| pessimizer wrote:
| > Ideas and sayings evolve and grow over time, becoming pithier
| and more accessible.
|
| Or more distorted and self-serving.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers
| adolph wrote:
| Wait, I can get a self-actualization as wide as my house?
| rzzzt wrote:
| AKA Maslow's top-heavy pyramid or hourglass.
| j4yav wrote:
| Is Maslow's Pyramid the same thing as the Heirarchy of Needs, or
| is it intended to convey something else? I've not heard of it
| referred to as a pyramid before.
|
| Or is the concern here more that this (or hierarchies in general)
| should not be conveyed via pyramidal structures?
| kklisura wrote:
| So... this is about visualisation of the Maslow's Hierarchy? Does
| the usage of _pyramid visualisation_ change the aspect or message
| of the Hierarchy?
| falcolas wrote:
| Not that I read in that string of tweets. The closest I saw was
| the assertion that managers used Maslow's hierarchy as a way to
| justify increasing morale without pay raises.
|
| Which doesn't seem like it relates to the shape of the diagram
| (or any other representation of the hierarchy) at all.
| mvkel wrote:
| Are the two mutually exclusive?
|
| If managers are doing things higher on the hierarchy but
| employees want higher wages, that just means they're further
| down the hierarchy and that need hasn't yet been fulfilled.
| whatshisface wrote:
| It has more to do with the idea that authorities will
| decide what they want to do then recruit words from
| anywhere they can find to justify it, than it has to do
| with what those words say. (See also: Crusaders using Jesus
| as a rallying symbol for mass killings of civilians, 1920s
| American eugenicists using the science of heredity to
| justify racism followed by 1930s Nazis who developed on the
| theme, 1980s Regan administration selectively using basic
| economic ideas to dismantle public welfare, while staying
| silent about corporate welfare.)
| blowski wrote:
| Is that behaviour limited to authorities? Teenagers
| frequently do the same thing.
| whatshisface wrote:
| It is limited to authorities in the history books because
| by definition when non-authorities do it, it doesn't go
| very far. :-) No matter how much a medieval peasant hates
| the Franks, nobody will ever know.
| klabb3 wrote:
| Agreed. I was preparing to be told I've been bamboozled about
| Maslov. Fortunately the critique was limited to (a) non-
| authentic visualization of a hierarchy and (b) someone has
| misused a theory.
| [deleted]
| sfink wrote:
| The pyramid implies (to me, at least) that the lower layers are
| absolutely necessary for the next layer up. It appears that
| Maslow himself wasn't so absolute about it, and referred to the
| _degree_ with which lower-level needs were fulfilled.
|
| It is arguable that the "absolute" interpretation is not
| fundamental to either the pyramid or the hierarchy. It's still
| probably a good first order approximation to get the point
| across: you're gonna have trouble with upper layers if you have
| any serious deficiencies in lower layers.
| crate_barre wrote:
| _the lower layers are absolutely necessary for the next layer
| up._
|
| So to counter the idea, all you really need to do is find
| examples of self esteem and self actualization before
| achieving the physical needs.
| withinboredom wrote:
| They are absolutely NOT necessary. Otherwise a monk with
| perfect self-actualization would lose all that when their
| monastery burns down. I'm fairly confident that isn't the
| case. Instead shelter becomes a dominant motivator, but
| they still self-actualize just fine.
| [deleted]
| draw_down wrote:
| djrogers wrote:
| I learned about Maslow in business school, and have come across
| the Hierarchy many many times since then, and I e never heard the
| term 'Maslow's Pyramid'.
|
| Is this a regional thing, or common in a specific discipline?
| robonerd wrote:
| Do a comment search on hn/algolia for both terms. 290 results
| for pyramid, 1096 for hierarchy.
|
| I conclude that the pyramid terminology isn't a strawman
| completely out of left field, but also isn't representative of
| the way most people understand Maslow's theory.
| txru wrote:
| In my experience of psychology/sociology classes, the concept
| is called a hierarchy and depicted with a pyramid.
|
| In practice always accompanying a thing with a metaphor isn't
| too different from naming the thing after the metaphor.
| oceanplexian wrote:
| The whole thing is nonsense pseudoscience regardless of what
| shape it's in.
|
| Being taught Freud and Maslow at least contributed to the reasons
| I dropped out of college. You can lack personal safety but still
| have self-esteem and self-realization. In fact some of the most
| self-realized people in history lived in some of the most
| dangerous times and places. I'm sure there are Monks who are more
| self-realized than any of the people Maslow would consider to be
| at the top of his hierarchy, and they definitely don't need
| Prestige or a Feeling of Accomplishment (aka the narcissistic
| human ego) to reach a higher level of human consciousness.
| phkahler wrote:
| It's a map, not the territory. The degree each person "needs"
| on of those things varies a lot between people. It's not
| strictly necessary to fulfill one level before achieving
| something on the next one either. The idea is that it's easier
| to go higher when you've already filled-out the stuff below.
|
| To your sentence "You can lack personal safety but still have
| self-esteem and self-realization." I would not agree. You may
| have a very low need for personal safety so that it is
| satisfied, but those are so far apart you're unlikely to reach
| self-actualization if _your_ safety needs are not met.
| blowski wrote:
| Perhaps those people personally felt enough personal safety,
| because it wasn't especially important to them. Anyway,
| something doesn't need to be true for every human being,
| everywhere, at all times for it to be a good general
| observation.
| clementmas wrote:
| It is referred as "Maslow's pyramid" in French:
| https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramide_des_besoins That how I
| learned the concept in France but I guess English speaking
| countries refer to it properly as "Maslow's hierarchy of needs":
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs
| bitwize wrote:
| It sounds like Maslow was commissioned to develop a theory of
| reward and motivation that would allow managers and executives to
| dangle carrots to get more work out of employees without, you
| know, paying them more.
|
| I knew "self-actualization" smelled like bullshit.
| hattmall wrote:
| I don't see how this disputes the pyramid, successive needs that
| build from the previous.
| mrfusion wrote:
| So the pyramid should be inverted?
| asperous wrote:
| Maslow's theory was never proven and in fact is widely criticized
| but it provided a starting point for people to think about
| theories of motivation.
|
| Also see the ERG theory which builds off of it:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ERG_theory
| sfink wrote:
| > Maslow's theory was never proven and in fact is widely
| criticized but it provided a starting point for people to think
| about theories of motivation.
|
| That series of tweets suggests that people have misinterpreted
| what Maslow himself was theorizing, so it kind of sounds like
| what people are criticizing is a strawman that did not
| originate with Maslow himself.
| phkahler wrote:
| Where did Maslow put sex on the hierarchy? Or did he at all? I've
| seen version of the pyramid where it was actually on 2 different
| levels, so where did Maslow put it?
| breakthecycle wrote:
| I've seen the same, though I don't have a source at the moment.
| It was both a basic physiological and psychologic need. Which
| makes sense if you think about it.
| timst4 wrote:
| I can't recommend Maslow's 1966 Esalen lecture enough.[0] He
| speaks of the existential purpose that is the driving force
| behind self-actualization. Of course, Capitalism sees weakness in
| spiritual rigor and would attempt to exploit such an idea;
| however, his description of purpose as phenomenon was personally
| quite inspiring.
|
| [0] https://www.esalen.org/podcasts/abraham-
| maslows-1966-lecture...
| bubba_sparks wrote:
| Maslow's Hierarchy for me too. Why does the shape even matter?
| That's not the point.
| kashyapc wrote:
| Indeed, Maslow never drew anything like that. The psychologist
| Scott Bary Kaufman debunks this myth more thoroughly in his 2019
| write-up here[1]. (Aside: Kaufman updates Maslow's "hierarchy"
| idea with a "sailboat" metaphor[2].)
|
| Maslow always emphasized the _relative_ satisfaction of needs. To
| quote from his famous paper[3]:
|
| [quote]
|
| _... As for the concept of emergence of a new need after
| satisfaction of the prepotent [i.e. dominant] need, this
| emergence is not a sudden, saltatory phenomenon but rather a
| gradual emergence by slow degrees from nothingness. For instance,
| if prepotent need A is satisfied only 10 per cent then need B may
| not be visible at all. However, as this need A becomes satisfied
| 25 per cent, need B may emerge 5 per cent, as need A becomes
| satisfied 75 per cent need B may emerge 90 per cent, and so on._
|
| [/quote]
|
| If you want to understand Maslow, there's no escaping his two
| seminal books:
|
| * _Motivation and Personality_ , 1954
|
| * _Toward a Psychology of Being_ , 1962
|
| He writes with superb clarity, and is an absolute joy to read. If
| you're really, really short on time, at least read his paper, _A
| Theory of Human Motivation_ [3].
|
| [1] https://scottbarrykaufman.com/who-created-maslows-iconic-
| pyr...
|
| [2] https://scottbarrykaufman.com/sailboat-metaphor/
|
| [3]
| http://worrydream.com/refs/Maslow%20-%20A%20Theory%20of%20Hu...
| stefan_ wrote:
| If you like reading fiction, anyway. Like many of the works of
| this time, all of it is smart sounding writing, none of it has
| anything to do with scientific knowledge.
| djmips wrote:
| It's not even a pyramid, it's a triangle.
| amelius wrote:
| It's a pyramid, but it was projected onto a line. What you are
| talking about is the projection onto a plane.
| shaunxcode wrote:
| Maslow's process network might be a better approach.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| Sure, he didn't propose that visualization, but the visualization
| effectively illustrates the categories he proposed and heirarchy
| he proposed then in.
|
| The bigger issues are that:
|
| (1) Maslow's research explicitly was focussed on elites that he
| referred to as a "master race",
|
| (2) The universal heirarchy he proposed has not been
| substantiated by subsequent research without the express
| problematic focus Maslow started from,
|
| (3) Research tends to show fewer, and more culturally variable,
| categories, with the heirarchies in which they fall also
| culturally variable.
| galdosdi wrote:
| > (3) Research tends to show fewer, and more culturally
| variable, categories, with the heirarchies in which they fall
| also culturally variable.
|
| That's fascinating! Do you have any source or useful search
| terms? I'd love to read more
| pradn wrote:
| I'd like to learn more as well!
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| If you are going to accuse someone like Maslow of being a Nazi,
| please provide a page number and full reference. Just out of
| courtesy, ok?
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > If you are going to accuse someone like Maslow of being a
| nazi
|
| When I accuse someone of being a Nazi, the word "Nazi" will
| absolutely appear in the accusation.
| [deleted]
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| > Maslow's research explicitly was focussed on elites that
| he referred to as a "master race"
|
| Please just provide a reference for your quote. I'd be
| interested to read it.
| mherdeg wrote:
| Your guess is as good as mine here. This phrase appears
| in Wikipedia but the citation in the article only
| supports the stuff in the quotation marks, not the phrase
| "master race":
|
| > Maslow studied what he called the master race of people
| such as Albert Einstein, Jane Addams, Eleanor Roosevelt,
| and Frederick Douglass rather than mentally ill or
| neurotic people, writing that "the study of crippled,
| stunted, immature, and unhealthy specimens can yield only
| a cripple psychology and a cripple philosophy."[11]: 236
| > ... > Maslow, A (1954). Motivation and personality. New
| York, NY: Harper. ISBN 978-0-06-041987-5.
|
| I took a read through the text in question (
| https://archive.org/details/motivationperson00masl_0 )
| and while the quoted text seems to have been quoted
| accurately, the phrase "master race" doesn't appear in
| that book. What Maslow seems to be saying in that section
| (from an extremely quick skim) is that he is talking
| about the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People,
| although he uses the phrase "healthy people" to refer to
| the people he's writing about.
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| Right. I think it was a response to a pathology-focused
| psychological profession. Today we call his approach
| "positive psychology." I never got any Nazi vibes reading
| his work -- rather an attempt to deeply understand humans
| at their best. Rather than attributing their peak
| humanity to genetics, he basically gave recipes for
| anyone to self-actualize.
| kashyapc wrote:
| Careful there. It _is_ true that Maslow did not have as much
| data as he _should_ have (and would 've liked). He admits it as
| much, and repeatedly warns in his books that "more data is
| needed". That said, on your point (2), he explicitly says in
| his paper ( _A Theory of Human Motivation_ ) that the
| "hierarchy" is not absolutely universal:
|
| "No claim is made that it is ultimate or universal for all
| cultures. The claim is made only that it is relatively _more_
| ultimate, more universal, more basic, than the superficial
| conscious desires from culture to culture [...] "
|
| (Where "it" == Maslow's classification of basic needs.)
| * * *
|
| A counter-point to Maslow's model is the "self-determination
| theory"[1]. It is "a meta-theory that consists of several mini-
| theories".
|
| [1] https://selfdeterminationtheory.org/
| adolph wrote:
| Some additional context is needed for such an evocative phrase.
| Maybe it was close in meaning to the backronym WIERD (Western
| Industrial Educated Rich Democratic).
|
| _Maslow studied what he called the master race of people such
| as Albert Einstein, Jane Addams, Eleanor Roosevelt, and
| Frederick Douglass rather than mentally ill or neurotic people,
| writing that "the study of crippled, stunted, immature, and
| unhealthy specimens can yield only a cripple psychology and a
| cripple philosophy." Maslow studied the healthiest 1% of the
| college student population._
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs#Me...
|
| https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/09/joseph-henric...
| threatofrain wrote:
| Maslow is also only exposed to undergraduates as a historical
| figure whose ideas are not in play today.
| penetralium wrote:
| Related blog: https://think-boundless.com/maslow-pyramid-
| inventor/
|
| Related paper: https://sci-hub.hkvisa.net/10.5465/amle.2017.0351
| monkeybutton wrote:
| Well that's disappointing to see! It's definitely become a meme
| in the business world, my favourite variation is this one:
| https://images.app.goo.gl/DabVgedNW8UZnqNW7
| kzrdude wrote:
| I think the one with the Internet as the base is my simple
| favourite.
| aitchnyu wrote:
| It gave the same vibe as my teacher who made a captivating
| speech where he said he watched Animal Planet and he felt sorry
| for the ostriches who buried their heads in the sand and will
| have their necks chopped off by hunters.
| awinter-py wrote:
| maslow's obelisk
|
| appears in moon crater at times of stress to spur change and
| evolution
| danamit wrote:
| Is Maslow's hierarchy of needs relevant in the corporate world?
| dboreham wrote:
| Maslow's DAG
| rfrey wrote:
| Huh, I just pulled my undergrad psychology notes and I don't
| think I've ever heard or used "Maslow's pyramid". It's always
| been Maslow's Hierarchy to me.
| teh_klev wrote:
| > It's always been Maslow's Hierarchy to me.
|
| Same here from when I was in college in the 80's.
| FastMonkey wrote:
| I also only ever heard of it as "Maslow's hierarchy of needs".
| blowski wrote:
| It's always drawn as a pyramid (at least a triangle) though,
| and often referred to as such an pop culture.
| https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23902918
|
| That said, this tweet does have a huge dose of
| "acccchhhtually......" in it.
| klyrs wrote:
| > It's always drawn as a pyramid (at least a triangle)
|
| A classic map vs territory confusion.
| klyrs wrote:
| Wait 'til you learn that the "food pyramid" is not a literal
| pyramid made out of food...
| MiddleEndian wrote:
| My day is ruined!
| goldenkey wrote:
| You mean that Captain Crunch isn't an ancient Pharaoh?! That
| fucking imposter, I've been worshipping him and his corn
| syrup for years!!
| labster wrote:
| It gets worse: Count Chocula is actually a commoner.
| goldenkey wrote:
| I knew that ever since he partnered with Hersheys. We all
| know real aristocrats only use Dutch cocoa.
| glenstein wrote:
| Am I missing something here? If we're just litigating the
| difference between "hierarchy" and "pyramid", I just don't
| think there's anything worth discussing here.
|
| I think the ordinary, uncritical reader who hears about
| "Maslow's hierarchy" and sees a pyramid (1) isn't necessarily
| committing themselves to any high-stakes claim about what
| Maslow originally did or didn't intend and (2) they aren't
| being mislead by seeing a pyramid (as opposed to anything else)
| to represent a hierarchical structure.
|
| I understand that mis-quotations and misattributes are a thing,
| and the cultural forces that lead to them, and the ripple
| effects they cause, merit attention. But there's a second,
| parallel tradition that centers on "correcting" supposed
| misperceptions over trivial distinctions.
| lr4444lr wrote:
| Okay, but maybe later research validates the pyramid model more
| strongly than Maslow intended? We like the idea for the idea. Not
| because Maslow said it. He's not a prophet.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2022-04-29 23:01 UTC)