[HN Gopher] Stress hormone reduces altruistic behavior in empath...
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Stress hormone reduces altruistic behavior in empathetic people
Author : community
Score : 187 points
Date : 2022-04-26 17:38 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (neurosciencenews.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (neurosciencenews.com)
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| Of course it does. Hard to be altruistic when you're figuring out
| your own survival.
|
| Anyone who says economics doesn't matter is wrong.
| yboris wrote:
| Direct link to article: _Altruism under Stress: Cortisol
| Negatively Predicts Charitable Giving and Neural Value
| Representations Depending on Mentalizing Capacity_
|
| https://www.jneurosci.org/content/42/16/3445
| Khelavaster wrote:
| Are the authors ignorant of the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone
| system? Vasopressin reduces altruistic behavior in empathetic
| people. Cortisol clasically raises vasopressin.
|
| Autism is characterized by low regulatory APVR2 (vasopressin
| receptor 2) function, leading to high baseline vasopressin and
| issues staying hydrated
| JamesBarney wrote:
| If they had high levels of baseline vasopressin, shouldn't this
| make it easier to stay hydrated because it increase the amount
| of fluid reabsorbed by the kidneys?
| whatshisface wrote:
| Not if the high levels were an incomplete response to very
| low receptor performance.
|
| Biochemical signaling pathways are a mixture of negative-
| feedback systems that do not assume anything about the
| sensitivities of each receptor (because in a pure feedback
| system the signal would be amplified until it activated the
| receptor sufficiently) and "level-interpreting" (I don't know
| the actual term) systems where each concentration
| communicates a specific semaphore-like claim and if the
| downstream receptor does not match the sender, it will get
| the message wrong. One simple case where the second
| phenomenon arises is when the production of the signalling
| compound is prevented, by the finite ability of the cell to
| make it, from rising to the levels that would agonize the
| downstream receptor enough to achieve whatever the cell was
| going for.
| JamesBarney wrote:
| That makes sense.
| thomas536 wrote:
| Re hydration
|
| Do you have any good reading on that link? Searched just now
| and there's a lot to wade through to find a good article
| Khelavaster wrote:
| A. Research dates back to the 90s. Thousands of researchers
| have added their perspectives.
|
| B. Look at what vasopressin does, in humans and other
| mammals.
|
| C. Consider that Vasopressin Receptor 2, is right by the X
| pseudoautosomal region, so is mutated 15x-20x more
| frequently. Compare how often you've seen other
| pseudoautosomal differences in people with Vasopressin
| transcription differences.
|
| Or just start searching for random genes from around the
| pseudoautosomal region + autism. Transcription differences in
| one pseudoautosomal gene are so closely tied to differences
| in others, you see a very unusually high number of
| correlations between autism-uninvolved genes and autism.
| (Just as so many genes around TNF-alpha/6p21.3 are spuriously
| tied to autoinflammatory issues; major histocompatibility
| complex issues; tenascin-X-tied disorders including Ehlers-
| Danlos; and 17-hydroxysteroid-dehydrogenase-8 variance [which
| deactivates androgens+estrogens, and synthesizes moderate
| estradiol].
|
| Or how so many genes near the adjacent corticotropin-
| releasing-hormone-receptor-1 (CRHR1) and Tau protein (MAPT),
| in the same area as DNA-repair-gene breast-cancer-associated1
| (BRCA1), are spuriously tied to irrecoverable oxidative cell
| damage and neurodegeneration.)
|
| C...Some very important pseudoautosomal genes include the
| final stage of melatonin synthesis (ASMT & ASMTL); antiviral
| and anti-small-pathogen signal receptors, for interleukin 9
| and interleukin 3; SPRY3 lymphoid-to-myeloid switch
| granulocyte-macrophage colony stimulating factor (GM-CSF);
| cytokine-like-receptor 2 (CLRF); glycogenin 2 (starting-point
| for muscle fibers); steroid sulfatase (activates androgens,
| estrogens, progestogens); sex receptor Y and
| protocadherin-11-Y (PCDH11Y) in men [causing heritable
| father-to-daughter changes in protocadherin-11-X and near-
| adhacent androgen receptor].
|
| D. Also, check out the research from the last head of the
| Kinsey Institute. They hired her for that
| vasopressin+oxytocin triggers pair-bonding, and monogamy in
| monogamous mammals.
|
| e.g. "Oxytocin and Vasopressin Circuits in Context of Love
| and Fear", from the 'Vasopressin System in Behavior' edition
| of Frontiers in Neuroendocrinology: https://www.frontiersin.o
| rg/articles/10.3389/fendo.2017.0035...
|
| "Opposite effects of oxytocin and vasopressin on the
| emotional expression of the fear response" https://www.scienc
| edirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00796...
|
| Dune's Fremen are stellar thought-experiments of vasopressin-
| driven folks who feel strong oxytocin boosts in their own
| homes/territory.
| tomatowurst wrote:
| does he mean the body doesn't hydrate properly, or produce
| saliva? or water bottles?
| Khelavaster wrote:
| I mean that the body most won't respond to signals to
| reabsorb water from the bladder because of weak QVPR2
| activity.
|
| AVPR2 only shows up (significantly) in the kidneys. It
| pumps water back from the bladder to the bloodstream. AVPR1
| and AVPR3 show up in the brain (and drive/control any
| hormonal response tied to water
| availability/quality/safety-to-access. Including
| territorial mammals marking territory.)
|
| Vasopressin is actually a mirror-image of oxytocin, with a
| few hundred million years of divergent mutations. Unique to
| mammals. That's why mammals are the only vertebrates that
| independently, separately, regulate water and ions. (Thus,
| sweating, lactation, crying, uncalcified placenta vs egg,
| etc.)
|
| So the brain keeps pumping out vasopressin (in response to
| dehydration-induced corticotropin-releasing factor). This
| leads to water "running right through". And high baseline
| vasopressin levels that go even higher with dehydration.
|
| Less commonly, especially for men, the body overreacts to
| vasopressin. Excessive vasopressin 2 receptor efficacy or
| transcription leads to low baseline vasopressin. Low
| vasopressin 'magnifies' any oxytocin activity. Leads to
| "human-hyperstimulated" autism and high innate trust in
| unfearful situations. Also often leads to low
| territory/spatial mapping capacity.
|
| This is what we're talking about.
| chownie wrote:
| Maybe lack of a thirst urge, which would match my autistic
| experience.
| cinntaile wrote:
| If you research something specific, it doesn't necessarily mean
| you're oblivious to other things. They might just be outside of
| the scope of your research.
| Khelavaster wrote:
| Exactly. Problematic when "lurking variables" with strong
| correlated effects (like vasopressin activity in this study)
| are of scope.
| rg111 wrote:
| While not a substitution for scientific study, I always _knew_
| this.
|
| When people are comfortable themselves, they tend to be more
| kind, understanding, and altruistic.
|
| I also suspect that this is also a long-term phenomena as opposed
| to the short-term implications featured in this study.
|
| When growing up, I have seen those people become altruistic,
| helpful, and have more bandwidth for other people's mistakes
| first who started earning comfortably first.
|
| My theory is this- being socio-economically comfortable with
| peace in mind makes you more tolerant, altruistic, and kind
| overall.
|
| Thus study mentions only "empathetic" people. But I think this
| goes beyond them.
| renewiltord wrote:
| An interesting corollary of this is that comfortable and
| wealthy people are going to be nicer to you than poor people.
| slim wrote:
| Since "socio-economically comfortable" is relative (some people
| are socio-economically comfortable with much less than other
| people) I'd argue it does not go beyond the general notion of
| "empathetic people"
| jjoonathan wrote:
| Competition kills generosity.
| fullshark wrote:
| Competition also makes the world go round
| [deleted]
| necovek wrote:
| Nope, it's gravity.
|
| And cooperation. Humans have risen above other species
| because of their cooperative approach (eg. sharing
| knowledge by passing it through language, forming
| communities with broader goals to protect the entire
| group, etc).
|
| This is pretty evident in all the stories of those
| children raised by animals in the wild: none of them
| develop much past their animal caretakers.
| whirlwin wrote:
| You could say the competition lies in maintaining and
| creating new relationships, in order to be able to
| cooperate well
| Jensson wrote:
| But competition is how we get out of local maxima,
| disruptive improvements needs competition, they don't
| happen through cooperation.
|
| For example, lets say you have a better way to make pots.
| You show it to people, but nobody listens, they think
| that their way of making pots is better. How do you
| actually help them get benefit from your discovery? Well,
| you set up a competition, so it can be clear to everyone
| which way is best. Then you beat the old way of making
| pots, they have to admit that they were wrong and now
| everyone benefits (except the old pot makers who now has
| to relearn their things and lose their status as
| masters).
| jjoonathan wrote:
| > competition is how we get out of local maxima
|
| Careful. The prisoner's dilemma shows us that competition
| can drive the system to the globally worst outcome.
| wahern wrote:
| Competition in the natural world is typically zero sum.
| In the human world cooperation and competition aren't
| mutually exclusive, and in fact we tend to build
| societies that leverage competition for mutual gain--i.e.
| cooperative competition. In any event, I _think_ the
| point is that [altruistic, non-kin, systemic] cooperation
| is the _distinguishing_ characteristic of the human
| species, not that it 's the only dynamic at play or even
| the one that predominates across all discrete social
| interactions.
| kizer wrote:
| It's certainly a privilege to be generous, almost by
| definition; you have to _have_ in order to _give_, abstractly.
| Whether the currency is in the form of self-esteem, wealth,
| status, etc.
|
| One of the most important things I've learned as I've gotten
| older. I just lived in my comfortable bubble growing up so of
| course it was easy to be "nice". Of course I still believe we
| should always maintain a civil standard, but I understand now
| rudeness' usually sad origins so to speak (emotional pain from
| abuse, life, whatever).
| hosh wrote:
| Though I've seen some amazing people who have very little
| still being generous.
|
| And I have also seen crises wear down good people and turn
| them into ungenerous wrecks of themselves.
|
| In the end, what I learned is that people are people, and I
| really can't judge anything by the cover. I have no idea what
| else is going on with someone, or their character and
| capacity to meet great hardships. And even if they have
| little capacity ... they are still people.
|
| How well that holds up in my own moments of crises? I can do
| a lot better.
| blooalien wrote:
| I wish I could up-vote this comment more than once.
| Swizec wrote:
| We had an interesting experience with this recently.
|
| A butcher accidentally added an extra zero and charged us $640
| instead of $64 for our purchase. We realized a few days later
| when I noticed our credit card spend looks strangely high for
| the month.
|
| We're regulars so the next time we were there we said _" Hey it
| looks like you overcharged us last week. Can you fix it? We got
| x,y,z and it doesn't sound like that adds up to $640??"_
|
| The butcher people were super apologetic, reviewed their
| numbers, and refunded us. They specifically said _" Wow you're
| so nice about this! Most people would be shouting and screaming
| and going crazy"_
|
| We're fortunate enough that a hiccup like that isn't a big
| deal. Plenty of credit card balance to buffer the hiccup and if
| worst comes to worst, we can issue a chargeback. And if even
| that doesn't work, eh we'll be unhappy but fine.
| rjh29 wrote:
| If anything it makes me more sympathetic of those who do get
| angry. If being nice to people is more a product of one's
| privilege than one's nature, who am I to judge those who flip
| out when they're counting down the days to their next
| paycheck.
| Swizec wrote:
| Well it's a bit of both right? Stress makes it harder to be
| nice, especially existential stress. But lack of stress
| doesn't automatically make you a good person. You still
| have to consciously decide to do the right/nice/polite
| thing.
|
| There's a lot of not-well-off people who are super nice
| because it's faster than being confrontational. And there's
| plenty of entitled assholes who think being well-off means
| they can shit on people.
| vmception wrote:
| I would have just chargebacked immediately when reviewing the
| card statement
|
| Like an ongoing gameshow of Jeopardy: _bzzt_ wrong price
|
| And then maybe contacted them to do it again
|
| But I definitely wouldn't have been confrontational either,
| I'm surprised people would bother being aggressive about it,
| maybe if they used a debit card or were broke/illiquid
| renewiltord wrote:
| Seems a bit unnecessary. You could easily use the
| opportunity to build a better relationship through
| kindness. In an exclusively self-interest-maximizing sense,
| doing this yields better long-term outcomes for a short
| term cost of one-week float of some insignificant cash and
| the discomfort of asking.
|
| You're entitled to it. It just seems irrational from a
| self-interest-maximizing sense, and definitely irrational
| to me who just feels pretty good about letting people undo
| a perfectly undoable error.
| aaaaaaaaata wrote:
| You familiar with how shitty card companies make that for
| vendors when you charge back?
|
| Not everyone would want to do that to their weekly butcher
| shop.
| aaronbrethorst wrote:
| I don't think the butcher shop would agree to be their
| weekly butcher shop anymore if they pulled that shit.
| throwanem wrote:
| I wouldn't. Granted, Steam or Amazon pulling an entire
| account over one chargeback, as has been reported of
| both, remains bullshit. But dragging a small shop into
| that process without even trying to fix the problem with
| a friendly conversation? That's a customer I'm probably
| happy to fire.
| vmception wrote:
| I'm familiar, so dont fuck up
| cpsns wrote:
| The American way, god forbid you ever make a mistake.
| JaimeThompson wrote:
| >I'm familiar, so dont fuck up
|
| Don't.
| dahfizz wrote:
| I assume all software you've ever written has been bug
| free?
| sigkill wrote:
| Good luck charging back a card-present transaction after a
| week.
| vecinu wrote:
| I have successfully charged back a card-present
| transaction after multiple months with US Bank.
| sigkill wrote:
| Was it a chargeback (i.e. a fraudulent transaction) or
| services not rendered (i.e. faulty product etc.).
| avgcorrection wrote:
| This doesn't have much to do with altruism or empathy. In
| your case: well-to-do people get more in return from managing
| their reputation as upstanding folks than the they would get
| from throwing a fit over something that they might only need
| to get fixed within the month. In the case of poorer people:
| they might have to pay rent today with that money, so their
| manners might go out of the window somewhat due to stress
| (getting mad because of someone else's mistake doesn't have
| to do with lacking empathy or altruistic feeling).
| Swizec wrote:
| > their manners might go out of the window somewhat due to
| stress
|
| Isn't this the whole premise of the article we're
| commenting on?
| pcmaffey wrote:
| This is why ending poverty should be the number 1 priority of
| our society. It puts *everyone* in a better situation to
| collectively solve other problems.
| pjmorris wrote:
| I'm inclined to agree. Are you aware of the Poor People's
| Campaign? https://www.poorpeoplescampaign.org/
|
| My sense is that it'll take action on the part of people who
| aren't activists to really shake things up, but the PPC seems
| like a start.
| alexpetralia wrote:
| Stress erodes our buffer against external shocks. We can't
| avoid all stresses in life, nor would we want to (some acutre
| stress is great), but chronic stress can consume any additional
| slack we have to deal responsibly with adverse events.
| avgcorrection wrote:
| Sounds like a good excuse to make a plan to get ahead first
| before helping anyone.
|
| What's my five year plan? To ruthlessly beat my opposition so
| that I will be in a better place to help the needy. Actually
| scratch that--make it a fifteen year plan.
| rjh29 wrote:
| Seems like this could be a feedback cycle too. Be less kind to
| people and they'll treat you badly in return.
| nafix wrote:
| Seems pretty straight-forward. Empathy requires energy and if
| someone is under stress, they generally have less energy to worry
| about others.
| tomatowurst wrote:
| I wonder if psychopathy/sociopathy/narcissism is the result of
| pro-longed inter-generational stress and isolation. Someone
| growing up say in a war zone and being exposed to violence
| constantly from a young age would be adapt to shut down
| empathy.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| This study uses cortisol measurements to obscure the fact that
| one group was asked to do a stressful public speaking task first:
|
| > Human participants (males and females) completed a charitable
| donation task before and after they underwent either a
| psychosocial stressor or a control manipulation, while their
| brain activity was measured using functional magnetic resonance
| imaging (fMRI).
|
| Most of these "cortisol does X" studies are deeply flawed because
| they try to pretend like cortisol is some independent variable,
| when really it's an artifact of having asked the people to do
| something stressful.
|
| In this case, the study is best interpreted as "Certain people
| are less altruistic immediately after being forced to do a
| stressful public speaking task".
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| CaptainNegative wrote:
| Nothing in here indicates a causal cortisol->~altruism connection
| was discovered, nor did they attempt at hinting towards causality
| (e.g. via instrumental variable estimation). The described
| findings appear entirely consistent with stressful situations
| both increasing cortisol levels and decreasing altruism through
| an unrelated mechanism.
|
| So I'm not sure I see the point of mentioning, let alone
| highlighting, a specific hormone rather than the causal variable
| they did study and discover, which is the stress itself.
| Khelavaster wrote:
| Very good point, too. No telling how relatively strong ly all
| the other stress-adjacent hormones fit into the picture.
| (adrenaline? Adrenocorticotropic hormone? Corticotropin
| releasing factor? Proopiomelanocortin?)
| dj_mc_merlin wrote:
| Agreed.. giving a public speech must impact your brain in so
| many more ways than raising cortisol, or?
| xen2xen1 wrote:
| And you can tell who crossed that bridge, never to come back.
| Georgia and Tennessee, for instance. I think I crossed over that
| one in 2019.
| throwanem wrote:
| I don't have time right now to find and read the paper and try to
| evaluate the significance of the finding, but I hope someone else
| does.
| bigdict wrote:
| I hope this is a reference to the title :)
| throwanem wrote:
| Not intentionally! I _am_ having a stressful day, but in this
| case the etiology has more to do with the press of demands on
| my time than with any direct effect of cortisol, I think.
| agilo wrote:
| The downvotes aren't helping either. True in life too, stress
| can become a vicious cycle leading to disastrous outcomes.
| That's why turning the other cheek, so to speak, sometimes can
| help break that cycle. Have an upvote!
| throwanem wrote:
| I don't often notice downvotes by virtue of rarely spending
| extended time on HN, and don't stress out over them when I do
| notice them because, beyond expressing a nebulous and rarely
| actionable sense of community disapproval and changing a
| number on my profile, they don't provide any signal worth
| getting excited about. But thanks just the same, I suppose!
| Heston wrote:
| You need a study to confirm you don't give away food when you're
| starving?
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