[HN Gopher] The Problem with Mechanical Switch Reviews (2016)
___________________________________________________________________
The Problem with Mechanical Switch Reviews (2016)
Author : signa11
Score : 44 points
Date : 2022-04-26 13:45 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (input.club)
(TXT) w3m dump (input.club)
| CyberShadow wrote:
| One rather un-obvious property of most mechanical keyboard
| switches made today is that the tactile feedback actually does
| not match the actuation point - meaning, the point at which the
| switch "clicks" is not the same point where the PC starts
| registering the keypress. In fact, in e.g. Cherry MX switches,
| these two are handled by separate mechanisms! The only switch
| type where actuation == tactile feedback that I know of is
| buckling-spring, as in the IBM model M.
|
| This realization was a big moment of disillusionment in (most)
| mechanical keyboards for me :)
| __alexs wrote:
| There are beam spring based switches that also have this
| property. There are even some MX keycap compatible ones
| available now but I think they are all require a hall effect
| PCB.
|
| I guess some clicky optical switches may also behave this way?
| Aloha wrote:
| I've been laughed at by mechanical keyboard purists, but I have
| modern model m's on my desk for this reason.
| keithnz wrote:
| with my blue switch keyboard, I cannot get a key to register
| before the "click" and cannot get a click without a key showing
| up (using my finger) so in a practical way, this really isn't a
| problem
| bananabiscuit wrote:
| Same for me. The only mechanical keyboards I like are buckling
| spring and Topre due to exactly this.
| filoleg wrote:
| Wow, thanks for posting this. I always felt like something was
| off in a subtle way with most mechanical keyboards I've used,
| but your explanation nails it.
|
| Totally explains why I ended up settling on HHKB, which
| actually feels like it registers the button press right when
| you feel that "click" (given it is much closer to IBM Model M
| than to the usual mechanical switches).
| TacticalCoder wrote:
| Same here... I'm not too sure how the Topre switches in the
| HHKB do work but I went from years and years on Model Ms to
| Topre. I'm using HHKB since so long I don't even remember
| when I started using them. I tried all the Cherry out there
| but Topre is my favorite switch by very far.
| mumblemumble wrote:
| Personally, I like this. I've since gone linear, but, when I
| was a fan of tactile keys, my favorites were the ones that
| placed actuation just _before_ tactile feedback. That allowed
| me to type much more lightly, because I only had to press
| enough to get to the leading edge of the tactile bump.
|
| I did once love my Model M, but it's more tiring to use than
| newer keyswitch designs are. Pushing enough to actuate the key
| means building up enough force to buckle the spring, at which
| point there's not really anything I can do to avoid bottoming
| out. It's sort of the double IPA of keyswitches: really,
| really, _really_ good in small doses, but not necessarily
| something you want to be experiencing for 8 hours straight.
| atoav wrote:
| As someone who likes linear black cherry switches this is not
| an issue. They have no bump.
|
| Why do I like those linear switches? Because you can mash them
| hard (then you need no bump because the key bottoms out and
| that is your definite bump) or you can type them close to
| inaudibly silent. Which is kind of important if you e.g. do
| audio recordings.
|
| Why black ones? I am a bass player, I have strong fingers and
| most other linear switches feel to light to me.
| tshaddox wrote:
| As far as I can tell, this is an intentional part of the design
| of the Cherry switches and is desired by many fans. It
| personally has never bothered me, even with Reds which don't
| really have a tactical feedback point.
| minerva23 wrote:
| Why sum the force curve and ignore the activation point?
|
| In an extreme example, if it activates at 0.1 and the force
| required increases 10 fold at 0.2, the the force from 0.2...4.0
| obviously doesn't matter (because the user would feel the force
| increase and stop pressing).
| 323 wrote:
| Getting strong audiophile equipment review vibes :)
|
| Did anyone do a blinded mechanical switch ABX test? I bet most
| would fail to differentiate except between the major categories -
| linear, buckle, dome, ...
| robbedpeter wrote:
| This is closer to musician instrument preferences. The audio
| component of switch mechanics isn't as important to me as the
| tactile experience. Tiny changes in the springs can be felt,
| your keys will feel too weak or stiff. The mechanics of the
| switch will feel broken, wobbly, or tight.
|
| Check out high end electric pianos at your local music shop,
| and compare to $100 Wal-Mart kid keyboards. The resistance and
| smoothness and feedback from the keys integrate with muscle
| memory better (and in the case of pianos, graduated activation
| helps determine the volume of a note and sustain.)
|
| I don't know if typing with good switches helps with rsi, but
| it certainly helps with comfort and satisfaction.
|
| A good clarinet or trumpet or saxophone will have similar
| features to the feel of different types of mechanical keyboard
| switches. Sure, you can play decent music on cheap mass
| produced elementary school instruments, but it's going to
| objectively feel better playing a high end bespoke instrument.
| No jarring or disruptive aspects in the motion to interfere
| with the process of putting characters on the screen.
| [deleted]
| Johanx64 wrote:
| I don't think the comparison to digital piano keyboards is
| apt. The velocity sensitivity on a digital piano is of utmost
| importance, being able to "enter the MIDI velocities"
| accurately and consistently, often at very high speeds and
| correct timing and tempo is of utmost importance. And with
| cheap digital pianos this is borderline impossible to do
| well.
|
| While a for a PC keyboard, a basic membrane keyboard will do
| the job outside of maybe some very niche highest levels of
| competitive esports
|
| Mech keyboards and obsession with them are purely a luxury,
| hobby thing
| rgoulter wrote:
| > While a for a PC keyboard, a basic membrane keyboard will
| do the job outside of maybe some very niche highest levels
| of competitive esports > > Mech keyboards and obsession
| with them are purely a luxury, hobby thing
|
| Some mechanical keyboards offer a symmetrical layout, and
| allow the thumb to use more than one key switch. Those are
| significant advantages for a keyboard user. (Since these
| are niche keyboards, they incidentally happen to have
| mechanical switches).
|
| Though, I think most people interested in mechanical
| keyboards stick to a keyboard with the same layout as the
| basic membrane keyboard. (Each to their own, I guess).
| arinlen wrote:
| > Mech keyboards and obsession with them are purely a
| luxury, hobby thing
|
| I agree. The fact that your typical keycap set typically
| sells for more than some full blown keyboards is already a
| clear tell.
|
| However, I'd add that some properties of your typical
| mechanical keyboard are indeed very convenient. For
| instance, easily removable key caps and hotswappable
| switches do bring in the nice consequence of making
| keyboards easy to clean, maintain, and repair.
| jotux wrote:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqai0_nnTgs
| tristor wrote:
| I've been using mechanical keyboards since 1992. I can
| definitely tell the difference between major switch types, and
| I can also tell the differences between switches I'm familiar
| with. For the most part though, you're probably right that if
| you just sat down at an unknown keyboard and started typing
| you'd probably only be able to identify it's major type and
| whether or not you like the feel of it.
|
| Feel is subjective, but it does matter, and it's something
| worth exploring for people who spend 8+ hours every day using a
| keyboard. It can also have important impacts on ergonomics.
| arinlen wrote:
| > Feel is subjective, but it does matter, and it's something
| worth exploring for people who spend 8+ hours every day using
| a keyboard. It can also have important impacts on ergonomics.
|
| Does this level of detail regarding feel really matter? I
| mean, all keyboards are usable and people do adapt to
| new/unfamiliar input devices, and it's not like laptops ship
| with high-action mechanical keyboards.
|
| And regarding ergonomics, the standard keyboard layout is
| renowned for not being stellar ergonomics-wise, so I'm
| skeptical regarding how relevant ergonomics is in this field.
| In fact, isn't a standard Microsoft Natural ergonomics
| keyboard way better than your typical mechanical switch
| keyboard?
| mumblemumble wrote:
| > regarding ergonomics, the standard keyboard layout is
| renowned for not being stellar ergonomics-wise
|
| Mostly among people who sell alternative keyboards. What
| little scientific research has looked into this, has, as
| far as I've seen, failed to find any measurable ergonomic
| problems with standard keyboards or the qwerty layout.
|
| Which isn't to say that there can't be any adaptive value
| for people with specific needs. Years ago, I had to switch
| to a split tented keyboard after I broke my wrist and
| temporarily lost the ability to pronate it enough to use a
| standard keyboard. Now that I'm all healed up, though, I
| mostly stick with it as a matter of taste. I also use my
| laptop's built-in keyboard when I'm away from home, and it
| doesn't give me any problems. If anything, I would guess
| I'm getting some benefit from regularly switching between a
| split column staggered keyboard and a standard keyboard,
| since it exposes my hands to a wider variety of movements.
| atoav wrote:
| > Does this level of detail regarding feel really matter?
|
| To whom?
|
| This is a very subjective thing and the answer is that it
| matters to some people more than to others. The point is,
| that even spending 200 Euros on a thing that you use for
| hours every day can be justified if this is the thing you
| spend your life with if it feels better.
|
| Note: it must not be objectively better, it just needs to
| feel better.
| arinlen wrote:
| > To whom?
|
| To everyone.
|
| My point is that no one was born with an optimal keyboard
| feel and a crave for a particular type of clickiness.
| Most of the talk around mechanical keyboards always refer
| to acquired tastes, without any consideration that people
| can and do adapt to sub-milimiter differences in key
| layouts and range.
| bsder wrote:
| > Does this level of detail regarding feel really matter? I
| mean, all keyboards are usable
|
| Well, the existence proof that it _does_ matter is the
| shitty Apple laptop keyboard that had no travel and broke
| if you got micron-sized dust particles in it.
|
| In addition, I pound keyboards. So, the force of the spring
| absorbs force more gradually before the key bottoms out.
| That's probably better for my fingers.
| tristor wrote:
| > In fact, isn't a standard Microsoft Natural ergonomics
| keyboard way better than your typical mechanical switch
| keyboard?
|
| The switch type does not control the shape. In fact, one of
| the oldest and most respected ergonomic keyboard designs
| (Kinesis Advantage) uses mechanical switches. I use an IV-
| Works AV3 mechanical keyboard, which uses the Arisu layout,
| which is a modified Alice layout, which was modeled on the
| Microsoft Natural keyboard.
|
| Many people use split keyboards for ergonomics since they
| provide the ability to adjust the angle, and these are
| quite common in the mechanical keyboard world, with some of
| the better known designs being the ErgoDox and the ZSA
| Moonlander.
|
| Ergonomics is both a function of layout, as you point out,
| but also the key design because the key design determines
| key travel, weight, and whether or not you bottom out when
| typing, which can effect impact on your fingertips and
| finger joints, in addition to the impacts of layout on your
| wrists.
| mumblemumble wrote:
| > The switch type does not control the shape.
|
| Except for Topre.
|
| Not that I'm mad or anything.
| atoav wrote:
| I mean they _are_ different in terms of force curve and all.
| Sure. I wouldn 't tell cherry red and silent red apart just by
| their feel, and silver vs red might be hard as well, but all
| other types I had at home are pretty distinct.
|
| And I am not a mechanical keyboard afficionado. I own _one_
| mechanical keyboard for well over a decade. But I had to do
| with cherry switches on a non-keyboard related electronics
| project.
| gotaquestion wrote:
| Constant subtle horn-tooting in his prose as well that's
| irritating. But from what I've seen on Reddit, there is a huge
| keyboard-phile community so I can understand the desire to
| clearly define the space. Although I don't know what they call
| themselves. Keyheads? Vectophiles?
| glitchc wrote:
| Each switch does have a different feel based on the spring
| constant, even within the same category. It's often hard to
| tell from one keypress, but fatigue becomes a key
| differentiator when typing all day. I found that out the hard
| way when a switch felt perfect in the tester kit, but rendered
| my fingers dead tired after a full day's work.
| notacoward wrote:
| > Getting strong audiophile equipment review vibes
|
| From the OP, or from the discussion here? Serious question.
| Because it's genuinely not clear which you mean (for me it's
| the latter).
| 323 wrote:
| In general, from the whole "mechanical switches" industry.
|
| OP is fine, he's measuring things. The audiophile industry
| also always includes "frequency response" graphs and all
| kinds of other measurements in their reviews, yet the whole
| field is still a bit of a sham.
| g3ol4d0 wrote:
| error 402 "This embedded plot has reached the maximum allowable
| views given the owner's current subscription." :c great reading
| tho
| nickstinemates wrote:
| What a terrible service
| speedgoose wrote:
| Yes, not a good look from plotty and SaaS in general.
| cycomanic wrote:
| Yes it's a nice illustration why you should not use a SaaS
| like plotly, especially considering that there are many
| options out there which could have put the plot into the post
| directly.
| pc86 wrote:
| At the very least it's a nice illustration of why you can
| use plotly but just take a screenshot and post _that_.
| alanbernstein wrote:
| I hate to defend plotly, because this is awful. But you can
| also embed interactive plotly plots, rather than depending
| on their service.
| notThrowingAway wrote:
| The HN hug-of-death at work
| cortesoft wrote:
| Maybe, although since the post is from 6 years ago, it might
| have been hugged to death already years ago.
| amelius wrote:
| Measuring only force, and not sound?
| CarVac wrote:
| "total force" should be "total work"...
| szastamasta wrote:
| I think that it's not really possible to conclude anything from
| the force charts. Switch feel is so much more than amount of
| resistance spring has. I've been testing switches that should be
| very similar according to charts, yet they felt totally
| different.
|
| I think there are plenty factors at play here. Spring resistance,
| wobbliness of the switch, activation distance, feel of the
| tactile bump/click...
|
| Recently I've been using Otemu brown, violet, and orange and
| Gateron browns. All should be quite similar, yet in the end they
| feel totally diferent. I love Otemu oranges and dislike brown and
| violet. Gateron browns feel very good, but a bit wobbly for my
| taste.
|
| I have tested more than 20 switch types, and most of my guesses
| based on someone else opinion or specification were usually
| wrong. The only thing I know is that I want tactile switches,
| with rather low activation force. Except of that, I have no idea
| if I'll like the switch or not.
|
| I like the way that author approaches this, but I'm not sure we
| can conclude anything from a scientific approach here. Switches
| are just like art or music. Sometimes you like a song you think
| you should hate. Yet it makes something to you and you just can't
| stop listening ;)
| layer8 wrote:
| What's worse, you need to swap the switches for the whole
| keyboard (or at least a significant portion) to effectively
| test them. Just getting single sample switches doesn't really
| tell you how a whole keyboard of them will feel.
| notThrowingAway wrote:
| Plotly graphs seem to work on the archived page:
| https://web.archive.org/web/20220426140006/https://input.clu...
| Sunspark wrote:
| I have had exposure to multiple different switch types over the
| years, not as many as enthusiasts however.
|
| Personal preference being expressed here, while I can and have
| used buckling springs at length, they are not my favourite for
| two reasons. One, they click twice. Once when actuating and once
| again on the way back up so they are 2x as noisy. Two, they have
| a fair bit of resistance. Really, likely the best way to type on
| a buckling is to push down and let the key push your finger back
| up. It can be tiring, especially if you're not imprinted on this
| way of typing.
|
| My favourites are complicated ALPS. Yes, I know they are no
| longer made with the exception of simplified whites (from
| Matias), but I have a lot of exposure to ALPS and am actually
| typing this on complicated orange ALPS right now. You can look at
| force curve graphs, but the typing experience is very different
| compared to buckling. When you press the key (the travel needed
| to actuate is not as far either compared to buckling), you get
| one click not two. The key does not need to push your finger back
| up because it's lower force, so when you hear or feel the click
| your finger can already be swinging away to another key.
|
| MX is not as good as ALPS, but it has a large market share. Just
| like VHS wasn't better than Beta, but won anyway.
| Blackthorn wrote:
| I miss ALPS switches. They were absolutely the best. MX is no
| better than nice rubber dome in my mind (which I use today)
| while being much less reliable.
| Sunspark wrote:
| So why not get some Matias switches (3 to choose from), or a
| keyboard then? You can buy a switch tester from them and see
| if you like the feel of this implementation of it. It's too
| bad they don't send it out with some random keys attached as
| an option. https://matias.store/
|
| If you don't want to bother with the tester, the grey quiet-
| click are roughly equivalent to cream dampeneds and are good
| for use in an office environment so that neighbours don't
| burst into tears at your acoustic assault in the open-concept
| floor plan. If this isn't an issue and noisier/bouncier is
| more fun, then white is what you want.
|
| Tai-Hao also sometimes makes ALPS keycaps.
| kkfx wrote:
| I haven't much good experience with buckling springs: my PC122
| (battlecruiser) after just an year have most used keys usable
| only hitting them veeeery strongly, also unpleasantly feeling
| the second click on the finger, the old one same issue. It's
| not the switch per se but the arch...
|
| Cherry, Gator, Outemu etc so far have not shown such short life
| behavior...
| kkfx wrote:
| Not intending to be rude but... My own main personal problem is
| not much in switch terms but in the keyboards they are in:
|
| - most can't be easily reprogrammed and some with only some
| programmable keys demand extra software _at runtime_ to work;
|
| - most are just designed out of IBM PC classic keyboard changing
| just the look&feel from one to another, there is exactly ZERO
| competition in keyboard features behind aesthetic/visual
| aspects/colorful backlit etc;
|
| - keys tend to be smaller and narrow than the past, I suppose to
| save plastic for the OEM, nothing really for the end user;
|
| - Cherry profile &c makes impossible to move keycaps freely
| around the keyboard (classic IBM parabolic design, with is very
| simple actually can perfectly: all keycaps are physically
| identical).
|
| To be less off-topic: switches soldered in ways that's hard
| substitute them at home if some breaks after a bit of time.
| Switch with different keycaps connectors just to create
| incompatibility between vendors and no standard to rescue...
|
| Long story short: real tactility and force might be interesting
| to discuss and compare people taste on those topics, noise levels
| are another topic, but the above issues well... Are IMO far more
| crucial and still ignored by most...
| yeahboats wrote:
| Have you looked into the various builds on r/ergomechkeyboards?
| A lot of custom layouts/pcbs, most all with hotswap switches
| and running QMK, which should let you keep your custom keys on
| device and not needing any software at runtime. (You'll have to
| program the firmware at some point though.) I went with one
| that had a build service as I didn't feel comfortable soldering
| just yet. Only downside is that cases can be a little unrefined
| and it's easy to get expensive quickly as they are more niche
| builds.
| PaulHoule wrote:
| But isn't the trouble with that that the thing we really want to
| measure is "I like typing on this keyboard?"
| klyrs wrote:
| I want to know "will I like typing on this keyboard" without
| buying it first. I can't tell that from reading a dozen
| reviews, because people love that clacky IBM keyboard that
| drives me up the wall. Keyboard enthusiasts are not to be
| trusted. Graphs give me a much better idea of what I'd actually
| be getting.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| I agree with your point, but:
|
| > Graphs give me a much better idea of what I'd actually be
| getting
|
| The issue with that is that you "have to have the feel" for
| the graph. Except for extreme circumstances, if you're not
| familiar with how to approximate the feel from the graph, it
| won't really help you.
|
| I guess my point is that you still have to have some kind of
| actual, real-world experience.
|
| In my case, I kind of deduced that I liked "bumpy" switches,
| so I went the "brown" route. I was happy with my Gateron
| Browns. When I wanted a second keyboard to not haul the first
| around, I figured Cherry Brown would be "close enough". They
| supposedly have the same specs and everything. Nope. They
| feel much "harder" to press.
|
| I do like them enough, so I didn't send the KB back. But I do
| tend to miss some keys when I switch from Gateron to Cherry,
| and I do tend to press like crazy on the Gateron after
| switching from the Cherry.
| klyrs wrote:
| > The issue with that is that you "have to have the feel"
| for the graph
|
| This is true; it takes time and effort to understand
| anything quantifiable once it's been quantified. As
| somebody with extensive experience with math and physics, I
| didn't really grok the force/displacement plots on first
| glance. So, I read the axes. That got me most of the way
| there. Then, I looked at the force/displacement plots of
| various keyswitches, and reflected on my own experience
| with keyboards from clacky to mushy.
|
| So, yes, you do need actual real-world experience with
| _keyboards_. With that experience, and the skill of reading
| a plot, you can get a good sense of what to expect without
| actual real-world experience with _this specific
| keyswitch_.
|
| Got me curious, because cherry browns are considered
| "lighter" than gateron browns. Looking at the data, they
| take less force to register a keypress, but more force to
| bottom out. So, that's a perfect example of why you can't
| trust individual reviewers: some are interested in getting
| a keypress, some are more focused on bottom-out force.
|
| https://input.club/the-comparative-guide-to-mechanical-
| switc...
|
| https://input.club/the-comparative-guide-to-mechanical-
| switc...
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| It's funny, those are the exact pages I checked when
| answering.
|
| But as someone who's not particularly well versed in
| physics, it's not clear to me how much of a difference 1
| gf makes in terms of feel.
|
| Plus, on the same pages, regarding actuation, it says
| that the Cherry is "light", whereas the Gateron is
| "medium". But a few lines below, the actuation force is
| actually higher on the Cherry (37 gf vs 36 gf). Also, the
| "spring force" is higher on the Cherry, so maybe it's
| expected for it be "stiffer"?
| PaulHoule wrote:
| The graph itself has an absurd number of variables. Graphs
| don't have a natural ordering, though you could make one
| such as "area between the up and down curves".
|
| My pet peeve is fat fingering. To first order I think any
| keyboard sucks if I am afraid to use the backspace or home
| button because I risk toggling the "insert/replace".
|
| The force curve might have something to do with that, you
| might also take some objective measurements about the key
| layout that are predictive of that, but I could waste a
| huge amount of time trying out "bad" keyboards without
| prediction of my personal fat finger rate.
| CarVac wrote:
| Yes, but you can judge based on force curves to compare
| switches you have tried to switches you haven't.
| notacoward wrote:
| I think the point is to be able to _predict_ the answer without
| actually trying it. If I know I like X and Y, and I can see
| that Z has a very similar force curve, then it 's likely to
| satisfy one of my preferences. I might have others - e.g. sound
| and key spacing - but that just suggests other measurements
| that should also be made. Having more detailed/accurate force
| measurements still seems like a good thing.
| dang wrote:
| Discussed at the time:
|
| _The Problem with Mechanical Switch Reviews_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13006608 - Nov 2016 (5
| comments)
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