[HN Gopher] CRT Manufacturing
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       CRT Manufacturing
        
       Author : grunthos
       Score  : 111 points
       Date   : 2022-04-25 12:23 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (vintagetek.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (vintagetek.org)
        
       | fallat wrote:
       | There's no way CRT manufacturing could come back right?
       | 
       | Is OLED manufacturing easier?
       | 
       | What is the easiest display to actually make?
        
         | formerly_proven wrote:
         | Manufacturing OLEDs is _vastly_ more complex than CRTs, which
         | is essentially folding and welding sheet metal and glasblowing.
         | 
         | I'm pretty sure one person can make basic CRTs in their shed
         | because that's pretty much how early CRTs were made.
         | 
         | Of course really good or very fast CRTs are a tad different,
         | but the fundamentals (i.e. electron optics) are still used in
         | various places, so it's not like we've collectively forgotten
         | how to shape an electron beam. Tektronix also published tons of
         | literature about stuff like this.
         | 
         | > What is the easiest display to actually make?
         | 
         | Discounting electro-mechanical displays, I'd say VFDs.
        
           | GekkePrutser wrote:
           | Complex, yes. But, don't forget that if we still made CRTs
           | we'd desire them at extremely high quality. Much higher than
           | they were when they were still manufactured. I don't think
           | there'd be much difference in complexity.
           | 
           | Also, the much higher amount of materials, the bulk etc would
           | make them unviable now.
        
           | phkahler wrote:
           | >> Manufacturing OLEDs is vastly more complex than CRTs,
           | which is essentially folding and welding sheet metal and
           | glasblowing.
           | 
           | I recall an article from ~20 years ago where some researchers
           | made an OLED display using an inkjet printer. I'm sure the
           | consistency and reliability were not what you get out of
           | modern manufacturing, but still...
           | 
           | I've been waiting for inkjet based printing of simple
           | circuits and lighting but it's just not happening. Imagine
           | printing light-up signs. c'mon Y-combinator we need this tech
           | everywhere.
        
             | xyzzy21 wrote:
             | Fun fact: OLEDs have radically shorter lifespans "in the
             | field" than LED or LCD.
             | 
             | According to a paper from Samsung at IEEE IRPS three years
             | ago, the best OLED screens only have about 2 years (600
             | hours) best case continuous use but that is extended by
             | "screen savers" and estimates of only 25%-50% customer use
             | in a 24 hour period to about 5 years (extend by not using)
             | 
             | https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8720529
             | 
             | Part of the reason for this: low energy manufacturing
             | materials/processes, by definition (physics), will have low
             | energy failure mechanisms (which always means they will
             | fail more quickly). This is about chemico-physical reaction
             | activation energy. Anything ink-jet created or organic is a
             | low energy process/material.
        
               | NikolaNovak wrote:
               | >>best OLED screens only have about 2 years (600 hours)
               | best case continuous use
               | 
               | I don't have access to paper, but rough estimate is that
               | there are ~17k hours in 2 years.
               | 
               | If screen has actually 2 years 24x7 continuous use (and I
               | assume they use a semi-arbitrary brightness threshold or
               | something?), I imagine for TVs that'll be an easy decade
               | of real-world use, depending on usage patterns. For some
               | phones maybe less. I'd be curious what the specs for LCD
               | & LED are then.
        
               | phkahler wrote:
               | >> low energy manufacturing materials/processes, by
               | definition (physics), will have low energy failure
               | mechanisms
               | 
               | That is one of the most obvious-in-hindsight things I've
               | learned lately. Thanks!
        
               | Wowfunhappy wrote:
               | Surely it's not that low? The lamp in my projector (BenQ
               | W1070) is rated for 5,000 hours, and that's low enough
               | that the manufacturer includes a lamp timer in the menu
               | and sells user-swappable replacements. I'm on my third
               | lamp.
               | 
               | If the whole display was expected to die in anything like
               | this amount of time, I would anticipate widespread
               | consumer outrage.
        
           | xyzzy21 wrote:
           | Actually CRTs and vacuum tubes in general are the "far more
           | complex" manufacturing process compared to semiconductor.
           | It's sounds wrong but just watch the following video about
           | Mullard vacuum tube (valve) manufacturing in the early 1960s.
           | 
           | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDvF89Bh27Y
           | 
           | The transistor would start to displace tubes during the 1960s
           | (when I got into electronics in the early 1970s, you still
           | would learn or use or have as option the user of vacuum tubes
           | but by the end of the 1970s, that was 100% gone for
           | professionals and hobbyists though in 1980s as a freshman EE
           | student we had the last gasp of vacuum tube education
           | corresponding to having to use FORTRAN and punch cards that
           | one last semester for programming as well). At the same time,
           | discrete transistors were arising as the de facto choice in
           | commercial (the adoption "Chasm" for them occurred in the
           | late 1950s). ICs were still "early adopter" in the 1960 and
           | crossed the chasm in the late 1960s, early 1970s which is why
           | the 1970s were the boom decade for Silicon Valley and IC
           | manufacturing.
           | 
           | As I watch tube manufacturing with 40 years of experience in
           | semiconductor, I just cringe at the non-reproducibility and
           | labor involved - it's insane. By contrast, semiconductor (and
           | by commonality of process, OLED) is far simpler. The reason:
           | the planar photolithographic cycle is repeated over and over
           | again in semiconductors which in contrast to the "different
           | at every single step" of tube manufacturing is radially
           | simpler.
        
             | bee_rider wrote:
             | It depends on how we define define "manufacturing
             | complexity" right? Perhaps (I'm not in manufacturing,
             | so...) it is right to say that a CRT is more complex to
             | build than an LCD or OLED, in the same sense that a suit of
             | plate armor is more complex to build than an M16. The
             | former can be created with lower technology and more manual
             | labor by an expert, the latter can be basically stamped
             | out, some assembly required.
        
         | syntaxing wrote:
         | Depends what you mean by "easier". The biggest issue with OLED
         | is yield. Most OLED require some sort of plasma deposition
         | which is hard to get high throughout, good uniformity and low
         | scraps for something that's so large (hence why I guess phones
         | OLED are so much more abundant)
        
         | beecafe wrote:
         | https://youtu.be/qg8pMUd-tSk You can make the OLED part at
         | home, but patterning it into a screen with an active matrix of
         | see-thru transistors is hard.
        
         | GekkePrutser wrote:
         | CRTs also have pretty high drawbacks... High energy use
         | (remember the high energy use of plasma displays which were
         | basically flattened CRTs). Flashing, bulk, high material cost.
         | Radiation (since you were basically looking into a beta-
         | radiation emitter).
         | 
         | So no. I don't think it will be back. Modern displays are much
         | easier to make also, more high-tech but use less energy and
         | materials.
        
           | perardi wrote:
           | They also require somewhat obscure rare-earth elements, which
           | are not getting cheaper.
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphor
           | 
           | You'd also have to scale strontium mining and refining back
           | up.
        
           | formerly_proven wrote:
           | > Radiation (since you were basically looking into a beta-
           | radiation emitter).
           | 
           | This is completely wrong while technically correct. Sure,
           | electron guns throw electrons around. So you are looking at a
           | beta-emitter. But those electrons can't leave the tube. Even
           | if they could - CRTs have, depending on size and application,
           | an acceleration voltage of somewhere between 10 and 30 kV -
           | this translates to a range of a few centimeters in air at
           | best.
           | 
           | CRTs _do produce_ radiation, namely X-rays by way of
           | bremsstrahlung due to the electrons getting, well, bremsed at
           | the screen. This is part of the reason why CRTs are heavy
           | (aside from faceplate structural integrity); leaded glass is
           | heavy.
           | 
           | > Flashing
           | 
           | Visible flicker is obviously undesirable, but low duty cycle
           | displays are preferable for moving images.
        
             | GekkePrutser wrote:
             | > CRTs do produce radiation, namely X-rays by way of
             | bremsstrahlung due to the electrons getting, well, bremsed
             | at the screen. This is part of the reason why CRTs are
             | heavy (aside from faceplate structural integrity); leaded
             | glass is heavy.
             | 
             | True, I didn't want to get into that level of complexity.
             | The electrons are also quite easy to capture with
             | conductive glass. But the bremsstrahlung can be
             | significant.
        
         | Johnny555 wrote:
         | OLED's are certainly cheaper to ship, you could probably stack
         | 8 20" OLED displays in the space that my old Sun 20" monitor
         | used to take up.
        
         | mschuster91 wrote:
         | > There's no way CRT manufacturing could come back right?
         | 
         | Not really. CRTs are more bulky, more fragile, require lead for
         | the front glass (which means issues with environmental
         | protection laws), complex power supplies and they have a
         | significant quality loss in the analog conversion. Why should
         | anyone buy a CRT these days, unless for authentic replacement
         | of historic appliances?
         | 
         | > Is OLED manufacturing easier? What is the easiest display to
         | actually make?
         | 
         | That depends on your definition of "easy" - these days I'd
         | assume TN LC displays are the easiest to manufacture at scale,
         | the technology is decades old (and thus, no patents in play)
         | and there are lots of manufacturers. OLEDs may be easier to
         | manufacture (JOLED aka Sony/Panasonic have shown that one can
         | print a display using an inkjet printer), but that stuff is
         | heavily under patents for the next two decades so it's not
         | accessible enough to meet the "easy" definition IMO.
         | 
         | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JOLED
        
         | lazyier wrote:
         | > There's no way CRT manufacturing could come back right?
         | 
         | Probably not.
         | 
         | > Is OLED manufacturing easier?
         | 
         | Define "Easier".
         | 
         | Is it easier to manufacture a transistor or is it easier to
         | manufacture a vacuum tube?
         | 
         | If you were stuck out in the wilderness with nothing but rocks,
         | sticks, and a pile of sand and a team of engineers you would
         | probably have a much easier time building a primitive CRT
         | display than a OLED one.
         | 
         | But if you have a goal of having to manufacture a reliable
         | display at minimal cost then OLED wins hands-down.
         | 
         | Depending on your constraints one is 'easier' then the other.
         | 
         | ------------
         | 
         | Old CRT displays were nice (inherent advantages in terms of
         | resolution, refresh rates, color depth, view angles, and color
         | accuracy), but they were fragile and required significant
         | amount of labor to construct. It is unusual for CRT-based
         | televisions to last decades without requiring repairing and
         | tuning.
         | 
         | Where as modern modern flatscreen displays are much cheaper to
         | produce, are much more efficient in terms of resource usage,
         | and are much more reliable. People tend to replace flat screens
         | because they become obsolete. However they replaced tended to
         | CRTs because they stopped working.
        
         | phendrenad2 wrote:
         | Not unless someone finds a product that people want that needs
         | a CRT. I expect that in 20 or so years, CRTs will be so rare
         | that they could be a nerdy conversation piece. So someone could
         | go back into business making a simplified, no-frills CRT and
         | selling it at enthusiast prices ($1000+).
        
         | em3rgent0rdr wrote:
         | A decade ago it was generally assumed that vinyl recordings
         | were over with. And vacuum-tube amplification should be
         | obsolete. But retro-fashion persists.
        
           | JohnBooty wrote:
           | CRT manufacturing is, at a minimum, an order of magnitude
           | more complex.
           | 
           | In all likelihood the ability/knowledge to manufacture high
           | quality CRTs has been irrevocably lost and won't be regained
           | unless somebody wants to sink large amounts of cash (hundreds
           | of millions?) into reviving it. In contrast, vinyl never
           | actually went away.                   retro-fashion
           | 
           | CRTs still have some technical advantages (essentially zero
           | lag) and notable differences compared to modern flat panel
           | displays.
           | 
           | The appeal to many of these outdated technologies extends
           | beyond "fashion."
        
             | louhike wrote:
             | Yes, old technologies (video games consoles before HDMI
             | use, VHS) were made to be displayed on CRT and the quality
             | is far worse when seen on recent TV. I recommend the
             | twitter of CRT Pixels if you want examples.
        
             | speeder wrote:
             | I was using CRT until recently, sadly it broke in a way
             | nobody could fix :(
             | 
             | Reasons why I preferred it over flat panel:
             | 
             | 1. Zero lag (lag annoys me a lot when I am gaming)
             | 
             | 2. Arbitrary resolutions (for example I was running several
             | recent games using a medium-range video card, with graphic
             | options on ULTRA or above, because the games would look
             | gorgeous on CRT with low resolution)
             | 
             | 3. Arbitrary resolutions (want to use content for other
             | format than widescreen? It is covered! Content designed for
             | pixels that are not square? It works too!)
             | 
             | 4. Stupid high refresh rate if desired (while lowering
             | resolution of course)
             | 
             | 5. Stupid high resolution if desired (while lowering
             | refresh rate).
             | 
             | 6. Better contrast (one of the reasons I got CRT back was
             | that I got annoyed with flat panel when I tried to play
             | SuperHOT and watch Game of Thrones on the same day, if I
             | avoided SuperHOT becoming a white blob, Game of Thrones
             | became black blob, if I avoided Game of Thrones becoming
             | black blob, superhot became white blob)
             | 
             | The last one sadly is only "theoretical" for me because I
             | never had the right equipment and software, but CRT could
             | do HDR images, for example Silicon Graphics for a time was
             | shipping computers for digital art that had a fancy video
             | card that could output 48 bits of colour, that computer
             | came with a ginormous widescreen CRT too... I believe that
             | CRT is the one John Carmack is using in a famous photo.
             | 
             | Also I heard before Windows Vista that introduced a lot of
             | DRM-related restrictions on video and sound drivers, you
             | could do a lot of fancy shenanigans with CRTs, seemly
             | intended for engineers and architects, but I never got too
             | much details about it, I never seen it in person and nobody
             | ever described it to me, I only saw people bemoaning it was
             | removed.
        
               | JohnBooty wrote:
               | Also I heard before Windows Vista that introduced a lot
               | of          DRM-related restrictions on video and sound
               | drivers, you          could do a lot of fancy shenanigans
               | with CRTs, seemly          intended for engineers and
               | architects
               | 
               | Huh, that's interesting. I'd love to know more about this
               | if you manage to jog your memory. I'm not sure what
               | you're referring to so that's why I'm interested.
        
               | speeder wrote:
               | I remembered the name, it was "Overlay" seemly it allowed
               | you do things like control the RAMDAC directly and skip
               | the CPU, send arbitrary information to the CRT, and other
               | shenanigans.
               | 
               | From what I understood the non-official reason for its
               | removal was to prevent people from using it to circunvent
               | HDMI restrictions in a way that would allow them to
               | duplicate movies without using DRM.
               | 
               | The official reason was that it caused driver
               | instabilities and thus Microsoft was against its
               | inclusion in the new driver model for Vista.
               | 
               | Why it was popular with CAD, I have no idea.
        
               | JohnBooty wrote:
               | Oh wow, that's super interesting. Thanks for following
               | up!
        
             | TillE wrote:
             | Zero lag is the really important bit. If you're a top-level
             | speedrunner of a retro game, there's just no good
             | alternative yet. When existing CRTs deteriorate beyond
             | repair, that's a big problem.
             | 
             | We can replace aging consoles with highly accurate FPGA
             | clones, but we can't replace the displays. The best modern
             | displays still effectively lag behind a CRT by about a
             | frame (~15ms), which really does matter.
        
               | JohnBooty wrote:
               | If you're a top-level speedrunner of a retro game,
               | there's just no good alternative yet.
               | 
               | I think even the most casual of gamers _feel_ the
               | difference when input /display lag is reduced, even if
               | they don't know why their enjoyment is greater.
               | 
               | Similar to how most folks, in a blind test, would prefer
               | a fresh-baked pastry from a skilled baker that uses
               | quality ingredients vs. some kind of shelf-stable
               | junkfood pasty. They would likely not know or care about
               | the fact that one uses high quality grassfed butter and
               | the other uses partially hydrogenated oils and that one
               | uses cane sugar and the other uses corn syrup. But they
               | would enjoy one more than the other, even if they weren't
               | able to articulate why.
        
             | hnlmorg wrote:
             | CRTs also scaled images very nicely. LCDs et al have had to
             | rely on higher pixel densities to achieve the same results.
             | This is then requires more powerful graphics processors
             | too. So for games, some gamers have turned back to CRTs
             | which means they can run their games at lower screen
             | resolutions but have all the rendering effects enabled.
             | Resulting in a better looking game than they would have
             | gotten from the same computer hardware powering an LCD
             | display.
             | 
             | There might have even been a discussion on here about this
             | actually.
        
               | SilasX wrote:
               | Yes! They're also better for rhythm games, like Dance
               | Dance Revolution, because you avoid the lag from
               | upscaling.
        
               | JohnBooty wrote:
               | Agreed on all counts!
               | 
               | Digital Foundry has done some excellent videos on CRTs
               | for retro and _modern_ gaming. High end CRTs are actually
               | fantastic for modern games, too, especially at 120hz.
               | (Although, good luck finding /affording one...)
               | 
               | https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=digital+foun
               | dry...
               | 
               | While purely subjective, many would agree that low-rez
               | pixel art looks much better on a CRT:
               | 
               | https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/9xg8w
               | 3/t...                   There might have even been a
               | discussion on here about this actually.
               | 
               | There have been a few. Of course, any time an older
               | technology is mentioned on HN, a bunch of uninformed tech
               | bros dismiss it as "fashion" or "hipster" or "nostalgia."
               | 
               | In reality, sometimes these old technologies have unique
               | qualities. I have to laugh at the idea of CRTs being
               | "retro-fashion." I've got a half-dozen CRTs in my home
               | and basement and let me tell you, nobody thinks it's cool
               | ha ha ha ha.
        
             | Zardoz84 wrote:
             | A CRT it's only a special vacuum tube. And now, there is a
             | small manufacturing of vacuum tubes in China.
        
               | willis936 wrote:
               | A vacuum tube with 3 balanced heaters, specific and large
               | blown dimensions, a delicate mask inserted, coated with
               | lead, and wrapped in copper coils.
               | 
               | You could make one in your garage for sure. /s
        
               | JohnBooty wrote:
               | That's only part of it. There's also the phosphor masks,
               | etc.
               | 
               | It's not that we literally don't know how to make CRTs
               | any more. But the manufacturing ecosystem is gone: the
               | machines, the tooling, etc. That was the product of 80
               | years and many billions of dollars of R&D. Making high-
               | quality CRTs requires some pretty specialized propietary
               | gear.
               | 
               | We could probably manufacture a 1950s-style black and
               | white TV without too much effort. But it would be a
               | tremendous leap from there to creating e.g. a high-end
               | Triniton monitor capable of doing 1080p@120hz.
        
         | xyzzy21 wrote:
         | With current supply chains and infrastructure, yes, flat panels
         | in general are easier. OLED are still somewhat specialized so
         | most come from JP or KR companies (with factories in JP, KR or
         | CN).
         | 
         | My current employer (based in Taiwan) makes an "LCD Flat Panel
         | Manufacturing Plant" product.
         | 
         | You literally just need a building shell (the plans for which
         | we can provide to qualified sales prospects). Then you place
         | your order and a few months later dozens of shipping containers
         | arrive and you put the contents into the shell like a child's
         | construction toy or Ikea furniture. All the cables are snapped
         | together and you start feeding it the inputs, and out pops flat
         | panels. It's 100% turn-key.
         | 
         | This product is part of the reason why flat panel TVs are so
         | cheap now - and Chinese customers LOVE how it's so simple for
         | them and requires zero actual knowledge of making flat panels -
         | sort of the ideal manufacturing for them (we also sell a
         | support contract service to run them).
         | 
         | Also one of the very last CRT manufacturers on the planet
         | (which now manufactures flat panel screens as well with CRT
         | production ending in the mid 2000s) was in Taoyuan TW (their
         | logo still has a CRT in it last time I drove by their plant).
         | 
         | Taoyuan and Hsinchu have been glass centers for TW for the last
         | 200-300 years due to natural reserves of highly pure silica and
         | natural gas in the area. Before semiconductors, these places
         | made scientific glass products (chemical/medical glassware,
         | lenses, etc.) which is why this former CRT plant was located
         | there. Note that the supplier of lenses for iPhones is located
         | in this same area. The common supply chain of silica is why
         | Hsinchu is the semiconductor center that it is. Old fashion
         | geography still applies to why the world is the way it is.
         | 
         | If you were to start a CRT manufacturing plant in the US, the
         | only best place would be in NY or PA near Corning NY because
         | Corning Glass is still there and doing leading edge work in
         | glass still. There's no company nor area better for glass or
         | glass dependent products in the USA at this point in history.
        
           | missedthecue wrote:
           | What's the ballpark figure for the amount of money it takes
           | to buy one of these factories in a box?
        
             | kurthr wrote:
             | I don't know the business that the original poster is
             | talking about. However, I would guess that this is a ~Gen4
             | LCD glass plant. That would make the sheets ~1m^2 and the
             | factories are typically over 300m in length. You can get
             | the mother glass delivered by truck (even get poly silicon
             | pre-deposited), if you don't have those facilities on-
             | site... however that would make the product more expensive
             | and sensitive to supply chain disruption. Most productive
             | factories are almost sand in to panels out.
             | 
             | If I had to guess on pricing of a single line capable of
             | generating ~1-3000m^2 a day, it would be in the 10s of
             | $million excluding the factory building or land itself.
        
               | Arrath wrote:
               | Time to crowd-fund a startup that makes truly dumb panel
               | tvs, wow.
        
               | wmf wrote:
               | Nah, just buy existing panels. The firmware is the "hard"
               | part.
        
               | BizarroLand wrote:
               | They already make "dumb" monitor controller boards for
               | almost every panel in existence. The difficult parts
               | would be:
               | 
               | 1. Designing a shell that is unique enough but simple
               | enough to pass muster for the average person. Aesthetics
               | matter, after all.
               | 
               | 2. Incorporating a remote that had the features you want
               | without directly copying another design, and making it
               | fully functional with the TV brains
               | 
               | 3. Finding a microcontroller that can be purchased at the
               | appropriate quantity that is able to handle the latest
               | features that you want without requiring internet
               | connectivity. (HDR, Post Processing,
               | Dolby/Atmos/Surround, etc)
               | 
               | 4. Getting the appropriate inputs to handle all of the
               | expected inputs for at least 90% of your target
               | audience's expectations
               | 
               | 5. Getting the finished product UL Listed and fully
               | evaluated by the appropriate licensing bureaus.
               | 
               | 6. Doing all of the above without causing the TV's price
               | point to explode well past the point where your average
               | target purchaser can or would choose to afford it when
               | less expensive brands exist that have reliable warranties
               | or customer service or a name to live up to.
               | 
               | Should you pass those bars and have a modicum of success,
               | then you will have to fight off all of the competitors
               | who will leap at the target audience you've uncovered,
               | releasing dumb tvs at price points you may not be able to
               | match with the goal of driving you out of business even
               | if it costs them money so that when the next cycle comes
               | around customers will have no choice but to purchase
               | their products again.
        
               | nebula8804 wrote:
               | Just crowdfund the development of alternative firmware
               | for a handful of popular models and then pay to maintain
               | for future models. Much cheaper.
        
         | usrn wrote:
         | People have built homebrew monochrome CRTs. The process looks
         | surprisingly easy.
        
           | em3rgent0rdr wrote:
           | link please.
        
             | babypuncher wrote:
             | This video is mostly about a diffusion pump, but he uses it
             | to pull a vacuum in a homemade CRT made out of an
             | Erlenmeyer flask and the filament from an incandescent
             | light bulb.
             | 
             | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrNVLCHrJtY
        
       | camtarn wrote:
       | The article on ceramic CRTs was fascinating! I had no idea that
       | CRTs could be made out of ceramic - I always assumed they were
       | all glass.
       | 
       | A short excerpt:
       | 
       | "Scope faceplates used to be round, simply because glass CRT
       | bottles were round, and the faceplate was part of the bottle.
       | Today, most faceplates are rectangular, to provide maximum
       | display area; thus they require tubes that are rectangular in
       | cross-section. In ceramic tubes, the glass faceplate is fused (or
       | 'fritted') onto the ceramic envelope. That is, glass bottles
       | _are_ truly  'bottles'; ceramic envelopes are more like sleeves,
       | or funnels, open at both ends. Such a rectangular envelope
       | requires great structural strength; to make one of glass would
       | mean very thick walls, thus a much heavier tube. (TV cathode-ray
       | tubes, for example, are not rectangular, but bowed on all four
       | sides to achieve the necessary strength. That's why your screen
       | is the shape it is.) ... A glass bottle is spun, or blown, inside
       | a cavity; a ceramic one is formed outside of a mold. This gives
       | us control over the internal geometry of the tube - particularly
       | important in post-accelerator (helix-type) CRTs. ... the large-
       | screen CRTs required for our display units and computer terminals
       | rely on ceramic envelopes for the necessary strength, fidelity of
       | image, close-tolerance geometry and reasonable cost."
        
       | 1970-01-01 wrote:
       | If you've never used or seen a CRT display, you don't know what
       | you're missing. A modern ultra-high resolution CRT monitor would
       | absolutely sell today.
        
         | giobox wrote:
         | While I love the CRTs I have on some old hobby builds, I'm
         | extremely doubtful a "new" CRT could be manufactured at a price
         | people would want to pay.
         | 
         | It would sell to a niche if it was affordable; I just don't
         | think the manufacturing infrastructure exists anymore to make
         | this at a price people would pay.
         | 
         | Let's not forget the weight either - a modern CRT running
         | something approaching a size and resolution we expect in 2022
         | is going to easily exceed 20kgs. Apple's last 21 inch CRT
         | before the switch to an all LCD line was 35 kgs.
        
         | danamit wrote:
         | nah they were SO BAD dollar for dollar compared to LCD.
         | 
         | I am not nostalgic for the days when 3 hours of using your PC
         | felt like frying your eyes with lasers.
        
         | wodenokoto wrote:
         | I grew up with crt both as tv and computer monitor.
         | 
         | The last crt I regularly used was the shared tv in my dorm,
         | which I moved out of in 2008.
         | 
         | I absolutely have no memory of them being superior.
        
           | twiddling wrote:
           | I remember the weight and desktop real estate they consume.
        
             | Slaminerag wrote:
             | We had 21" CRTs back in the 90s for full page displays. I
             | remember someone at a client injuring their back moving
             | one. One of my former coworkers broke a desk by putting a
             | CRT on it. I had a 27" TV that I could barely lift. Now I
             | can easily move 55" TVs. I haven't gotten stronger in the
             | past 30 years.
        
           | 1970-01-01 wrote:
           | Digital Foundry did a write-up on it:
           | 
           | https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfoundry-2019-modern-
           | games-l...
        
       | ladyattis wrote:
       | It's neat to see this, but I'll say I do not miss having a CRT TV
       | or monitor. They were just so heavy even if you had a small one
       | around 20 or so inches in size. I'm glad we moved on to LCD and
       | OLED. The only thing CRT had down was decent blacks but that's
       | obvious by the fact that it only would excite the phosphor dots
       | it needed to make the image. Beyond that, good riddance to them.
       | :)
        
         | Beltalowda wrote:
         | I miss the controls. These stupid on-screen menus are often so
         | difficult to use compared to just turning a little POD meter to
         | control the brightness, contrast, etc. If you're lucky your
         | screen has a quick-ish way to adjust the brightness, but the
         | rest are almost always a pain to adjust.
        
           | ladyattis wrote:
           | Oh yeah, the modern controls stink on monitors. I got one
           | with the joystick button which it's okay. It's much better
           | than what I've dealt with from other monitors but sometimes
           | the button isn't that reliable as to striking the on button.
           | I guess it's just a 40 year old boomer thing for me. None the
           | less, I prefer more tactile controls.
        
       | mjcohen wrote:
       | This is no longer allowed in Florida.
        
       | rendall wrote:
        
         | bandyaboot wrote:
         | "CRT Manufacturing"
         | 
         | https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/24/us/politics/christopher-r...
        
           | throwaway894345 wrote:
           | That's honestly the direction I thought this was going to go
           | as well.
        
             | [deleted]
        
             | rendall wrote:
             | Me too, but the observation got downvoted and flagged.
             | Weird.
        
       | speed_spread wrote:
       | Getting Aperture Science vibes from this. I can't help but
       | imagine that everyone in the pictures died a few years later from
       | weird and oddly specific cancers.
        
         | formerly_proven wrote:
         | Yes, just like every 9-5 office worker from the 90s was
         | sprinkled with tumors due to the color CRT radiation.
        
           | phkahler wrote:
           | Don't forget all those people in China dying from the all the
           | lead in the ground where these were dumped after use.
           | 
           | https://sometimes-interesting.com/electronic-waste-dump-
           | of-t...
        
         | madengr wrote:
         | I'm sure the same can be said of semiconductor manufacturing.
         | My wife's first day on the job in the clean room, she noticed
         | the plastic ribbons on the vent above the photo resist station
         | were not flapping. When maintenance looked into it, the vent
         | was blocked-off; had been since it was installed. It's this
         | kind of shit.
         | 
         | She got the hell out of microelectronics and is now a data
         | scientist. The former is a dead end job in the USA and the
         | latter pays better.
        
         | usrn wrote:
         | Electronics manufacturing is way more nasty than most people
         | are willing to admit. The idea that solar panels are "good for
         | the environment" always makes me cringe a little.
        
           | Epiphany21 wrote:
           | Solar panels are less bad for the environment in regions
           | where they'll operate efficiently for all or most of their
           | projected lifespan. The manufacturing process is worse up
           | front, but the idea is that this will be offset over time as
           | the device harvests energy from the sun without creating any
           | additional major pollution.
           | 
           | The trouble is that solar panels in lots of areas are
           | vulnerable to weathering, accidents, theft and sometimes
           | vandalism. The ones I've seen are just not very durable. I
           | drive by a field full of them frequently and a couple times a
           | year I see workers replacing a panel or two. I've been told
           | they're supposed to last for a minimum of 15 years.
        
       | thedeadfish wrote:
        
         | paskozdilar wrote:
         | Oh.
        
         | jgrahamc wrote:
         | This isn't Reddit.
        
           | thedeadfish wrote:
        
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