[HN Gopher] Simple Ways to Be Less Divisive (2021)
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Simple Ways to Be Less Divisive (2021)
Author : staccatomeasure
Score : 41 points
Date : 2022-04-23 09:47 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (staysaasy.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (staysaasy.com)
| TehShrike wrote:
| _Ironic_ jokes are dangerous, especially in a professional
| setting.
|
| If the words you are saying are not literally true, you're
| increasing the chances of misunderstanding, and it will happen
| more often than you think.
| skulk wrote:
| > Write down what you're saying, while you're saying it
|
| uh, what? That's a great way to ensure that I do a poor job of
| both speaking and writing.
| csours wrote:
| This one seems highly specific. Some people might find it
| beneficial, but I'm not sure who.
| JOnAgain wrote:
| Also may be limiting for some people to participate due to
| their ability to multitask or type quickly (possibly due to a
| disability).
| faut_reflechir wrote:
| > If you agree with an idea X that Bob said, say "I agree with
| the idea X", don't say "I agree with Bob". The former states your
| advocacy; the latter is dividing the group into teams.
|
| Not sure I agree with this one. The problem with the former
| framing is that Bob might perceive it as failing to credit him
| for his idea (or even taking credit for it).
| alar44 wrote:
| Agreed. It's completely dependant on context. Give credit where
| credit is due. One of my reports had a great idea a few weeks
| ago and I had him implement it on his own. Knocked it out of
| the park. When speaking with him I refer to it as "his"
| improvement. It fires him up that it's his.
|
| People need to be able to take credit for things. If they
| can't, they can feel like they are just a cog and what they do
| doesn't matter.
| waqf wrote:
| That was my first reaction too, but on reflection I think the
| cases are distinguishable. I do say the words "I agree with
| <Bob>" in meetings, but only when I am acknowledging (and
| thereby unintentionally endorsing) that there's a difference of
| opinion. Usually the subject of the difference is already on
| the table and doesn't need to be spelled out.
|
| By contrast, when I am crediting an idea it's because I had to
| reintroduce it when it seems to have been dropped; it's _not_
| the current subject of discussion. So I say something like "I
| liked <Bob>'s idea from earlier, to <frobnicate all the
| bangwoozles with imaginary polarity>".
| recursivedoubts wrote:
| > Miscellaneous: joke less, laugh less
|
| why did the language police cross the road?
| TimPC wrote:
| To get to the other divide.
| recursivedoubts wrote:
| that's not funny!
| jancsika wrote:
| > Miscellaneous: joke less, laugh less, stop gossiping.
|
| Ah, so not "Simple Ways to Be Less Divisive" but "Simple Ways to
| Be Less Divisive in a Business Environment Particular to the
| First Quarter of the 20th Century."
|
| Additional bullet:
|
| * don't talk about unions-- it will create an instant divide
| between you and management
| teg4n_ wrote:
| The divide already exists. Talking about a union is just
| verbalizing your recognition of it.
| tharne wrote:
| > The divide already exists. Talking about a union is just
| verbalizing your recognition of it.
|
| This divide only exists in somewhat dysfunctional workplaces.
| In most roles, I have not felt this division. A good manager
| is an ally and someone who gets your back.
| oversocialized wrote:
| mkaic wrote:
| Kind of ironic that the author has elicited a divided response
| with the "joke less, laugh less" part of the post.
| bachmeier wrote:
| The HN guidelines have a good one too: Please respond to the
| strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a
| weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.
| cosmiccatnap wrote:
| I find it interesting that getting technical work done is
| basically just antithetical to getting marketing and sales work
| done.
|
| In marketing, sales, and even management the goal seems to be to
| restructure the status of a project look good in a somewhat
| exaggerative way while also mitigating any fatal issues the
| client does see where as in technical work your goal should be to
| have simple, clear, honesty and a healthy dose of distrust not
| for people but for systems and their ability to not fail.
|
| Watching them talk at an office party is like watching two people
| talk who live in different countries and speak different
| languages.
| stevenking86 wrote:
| > "Can I confirm that March should be the launch date?", > don't
| say "I assume we're all aligned that March should be the launch
| date".
|
| ...only if you really aren't sure. I would actually say something
| like "We're planning to launch in March unless there are reasons
| not to."
|
| If someone has a really great reason, they'll speak up. Getting
| "confirmation" from a group that may be indifferent can sometimes
| be even worse. How many people in the group aught to "confirm"
| before we move forward? What if one extremely uninformed person
| loudly confirms? Then a person with a real issue may feel like
| they don't want to stir things up by disagreeing.
|
| Tangentially related: This is why you should say "If you can't
| see my screen, please let me know." when you start sharing your
| screen on zoom rather than "Can you see my screen?" Who on Earth
| aught to answer that in a large meeting?
|
| Assuming a "yes" and allowing for the "nos" to speak up is much
| more successful in general I think.
| [deleted]
| tharne wrote:
| It says a lot about where we are as a culture that we're here
| having even a semi-serious debate about whether or not it's good
| to make jokes. What a bunch of joyless puritans we've become :(
| sendfoods wrote:
| Slightly off-topic: any general opinions about this blog? Some
| very interesting stuff IMO
| bluetidepro wrote:
| > Miscellaneous: joke less, laugh less, stop gossiping.
|
| I can't tell if the last point is satire or not. I think the
| other points are great, and do agree with "stop gossiping" on the
| last point. However, "joke less, and laugh less" seem to be
| bleeding too much into "killing culture." You should be able to
| laugh and joke with co-workers. Not anyone's expense, though. Of
| course there is a time and a place, but the last one (if it's not
| satire) feels a bit mehhhhh. It doesn't feel like good advice in
| this context.
|
| (Also, mod note, we may want to get a date added to this post,
| it's from `17 Jul 2021`)
| swatcoder wrote:
| The subtext of the article is that divisiveness is an
| independent measure of whether ant individuals feel excluded
| from your organizational culture.
|
| And given that measure, it's not wrong: sterilizing and
| suppressing culture is an effective way to make sure nobody is
| excluded from it.
|
| The tradeoff, which you're noticing, and that the article fails
| to, is that a sterile culture doesn't have _inclusivity_
| either.
|
| It's just inert.
|
| Some workplaces, especially big enterprises, have no choice but
| to favor non-divisiveness over some kind of signature culture
| that bonds some people and leaves others feeling left out.
|
| But that's not the only way to have a healthy, respectful
| organization and it's probably not something that we should
| want as universal.
| probIs8 wrote:
| [deleted]
| dfxm12 wrote:
| I joke with my friends. I know their sense of humor. They know
| mine. Maybe I understand my team's sense of humor. I doubt it.
| I wouldn't count most of my co-workers among my friends. You
| also don't always know at who's expense or how expensive a joke
| may come, whether this is about football teams, geographic
| areas, hair (or lack thereof), etc. You also don't know if you
| tell a joke in an email in line with work related stuff whether
| or not that email gets forwards a bunch of times, might
| eventually find its way to someone you don't know who doesn't
| get the joke.
|
| One of my biggest rules of humor is to know your audience. It's
| easy to know your audience in a comedy club or at a dinner
| table surrounded by friends. In most cases, you don't know your
| audience at work.
| shafoshaf wrote:
| I agree. Joking less should be defined as only make jokes that
| everyone can appreciate. They don't have to think it is funny,
| but they should not be at anyone's expense.
| scelerat wrote:
| I see it as a workplace version of a lot of the underpinnings
| of Strunk & White's Elements of Style:
|
| Strive for clarity and unambiguity.
|
| Jokes are by definition, the opposite of this. The humor of
| many jokes is found in the ambiguities of language and
| circumstance.
| thrwy_918 wrote:
| I agree that joking, and laughing at certain jokes, are by
| their nature divisive. It's feasible to get a room full of
| people to agree on a feature spec, but it's not really feasible
| to get a room full of people to agree that a particular joke is
| funny.
|
| I don't agree that "joke less, laugh less" is good advice.
| There are things in life more important that minimizing
| divisiveness at all times.
| RobertRoberts wrote:
| I found the "type" of joke made all the difference. "A man
| walks into a bar..." or "Three engineers went to a party..."
| type of jokes often shut down the natural flow of
| conversation and focused attention on an individual.
|
| But, when someone tells a "funny story" like "Last night one
| of my kids did..." or "Did anyone else notice that crazy
| thing the other day?" then everyone is involved and easily
| invited to adding to the conversation even if what they say
| is not a joke or funny.
| [deleted]
| hyuuu wrote:
| I have AB tested this previously, and what the article is
| saying, does ring true to a some extent. I am known to be the
| joker, the glue of the team that just rallies as we go through
| harder problems or things we just don't want to do as a team.
| One day, just to test, for a whole month, I put on a serious
| facade. People did question if I was okay but in the end they
| adjusted and so did their treatment towards me. When I spoke
| they listened intently, when I disagreed the content of it was
| echoed by my team, I just somehow carry more weight.
|
| I switched back and the treatment then went back to "normal".
| It's hard for me to joke less and laugh less because it is
| naturally who I am. I would love to hear other people's
| experiences, has laugh/joke less helped you?
| swatcoder wrote:
| > It's hard for me to joke less and laugh less because it is
| naturally who I am. I would love to hear other people's
| experiences, has laugh/joke less helped you?
|
| I try to bring a more complete version of myself into my
| work. I treat my coworkers and clients as peers that I'm
| collaborating with towards common professional goals and
| embrace an honest, informal air that includes humor,
| cynicism, sympathy, excitement and whatever else gets
| stirred.
|
| I do this knowing that not everyone approaches their work
| this way, and not expecting them to.
|
| What shakes out is that I tend to leave an impression on the
| clients and coworkers I collaborate with and that I
| accumulate tighter and longer-lasting relationships with
| those whose impression is positive.
|
| A few decades into my career, this means that even while I
| work as an independent consultant, my collaborators often
| feel like a family where there's a lot of respect, trust,
| wholeness, and acceptance. I'm not forgotten and -- because I
| _also_ do good work -- I can usually find it when I need it.
| It 's worked out well.
|
| But I also harbor no illusion that there aren't people who
| I've rubbed the wrong way and who would prefer a more
| compartmentalized work environment or who just weren't into
| my vibe. I don't blame them, and I don't sweat it.
|
| I also don't know that my approach would have flown had I
| gone down the megacorp route. That's fine by me too.
| RobertRoberts wrote:
| I have nearly the same experience, but because I moved to a
| new company/job I had to make my change permanent. My jokes
| were getting in the way of being productive and so I started
| to bite by tongue when I think of something funny.
|
| Now I save my humor for times where productivity is not an
| issue, nor is decision making or in the presence of others
| making decisions or being productive. This is the nice
| balance I have found. (it's been better for me at work in
| every way to make this conscious decision on a regular basis,
| still not easy, but worth it)
| layer8 wrote:
| Humor, and the feeling of where it is appropriate, can be
| highly subjective. It therefore does have the potential of
| being divisive. For example, not everyone likes being jokey all
| the time, or may feel that it detracts when important work is
| being discussed. I guess in the author's experience and
| assessment there's more often too much than too little.
| bitwize wrote:
| It's called acting like a professional. Nobody actually likes
| the class clown because he's using humor to mask the fact that
| he's an asshole. Don't be the class clown.
| HarryHirsch wrote:
| Precisely that. It's a workplace where people work with a
| purpose, not a popularity contest. A similar sentiment is
| expressed in ch. 4 of St Benetict's Rule.
| sergiomattei wrote:
| In today's attention economy, being less divisive is how you stay
| behind.
|
| Have strong opinions, stick to them, and say them out loud.
| That's how your stand out and have influence.
| McLaren_Ferrari wrote:
| The attention economy is a lie unless you are a celebrity or a
| politician.
|
| Not even all celebrities, Djokovic created a lot of drama with
| his vaccine hesitancy, sticked to his opinion and stated it out
| loud.
|
| Result: He couldn't participate to a tournament he'd have
| almost certanely won, lost sponsorship money and engaged in a
| behavior which is frowned upon in a wealthy circle such as
| tennis clubs all over the world.
|
| Everybody wants to be Donald Trump, Kanye West or Enron Musk
| but the world can only absorb a certain amount of such juvinile
| characters, it's only them who get to monetize their
| divisiveness. But they do so in such a loud manner (like
| everything they do) that people think there is this immense
| payoff for being divisive.
|
| Being a unifer works much better up until the very end of the
| tail end.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| > Miscellaneous: joke less, laugh less
|
| Over my dead body.
| steve_g wrote:
| My initial thought was that I didn't like that prescription.
| But I'd like to know _why_ the author thinks "joke less, laugh
| less" would help with divisiveness.
| narag wrote:
| _But I 'd like to know _why_ the author thinks "joke less,
| laugh less" would help with divisiveness._
|
| If avoiding "divisiveness" needs killing jokes and laugh,
| welcome divisiveness, whatever it is.
|
| In my mind, I translate "divisive" as "doesn't think like I
| do" so it makes total sense to like it.
| allannienhuis wrote:
| doesn't 'divisive' generally mean to divide, as in separate
| into opposing factions? What you're describing seems more
| like 'diversity', which is pretty different I think.
| narag wrote:
| It's Newspeak.
|
| This particular manipulation of language consists in the
| confusion of cause and effect.
|
| Diversity of opinions exists. It's good and it's accepted
| to be good, even if it makes feel some people bad
| sometimes. Freedom of speech requires effort to accept
| we're different. To make it sound bad, you need to create
| a frame where everybody agrees on everything until some
| evil "divisive" person _creates_ division.
|
| That's false.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| I'm not the author, but I was in a Teams chat with my manager
| and another guy (that we needed help from). The other says
| something, my manager posts a huge frowny face with no
| context and the other guy kinda disengaged from the
| conversation. Privately, I reached out to both. I told my
| manager their reaction was harsh. My manager said "I was
| joking, they knew I was joking". The other guy said "I worked
| hard on that, the negative reaction was completely
| unwarranted." In the end, I was able to smooth things over,
| but I wonder if we could've finished up sooner or if my
| manager cashed in a little too much good will because of a
| dumb emoji.
|
| I guess the point is, it's not always clear what is a joke
| (or by extension, what, or who, is being laughed at).
| gonzo41 wrote:
| It seems like the advice is more like "Be the cog you are".
| electric_mayhem wrote:
| Humor isn't universal.
|
| Had a coworker who would routinely make jokes assuming
| alignment with his own extremist political preferences and it
| was uncomfortable like whoa.
| tetraca wrote:
| In that case, I don't think the idea of joking was the
| problem so much as shoving politics into the workplace.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| Or not being able to pivot when your jokes aren't well
| received.
| vkou wrote:
| The problem is that what you think is funny may be
| uncomfortable to a other people, and for some reason,
| it's always the funny guy who thinks that the onus is on
| everyone else to shift their behavior to accommodate his
| comfort.
|
| It gets worse when half the team is laughing, and the
| other half are praying for you to be struck dumb already.
| tetraca wrote:
| It's really not that hard to keep your forms of merriment
| clean and appropriate, if you are a generally good-
| natured person that likes who you work with and wants to
| make them laugh.
|
| That said, there are certainly people that can only
| perform humor as a zero-sum game. But in my experience
| they are also generally the kind of people that subject
| their coworkers to uncomfortable conversations in a
| myriad of other ways.
| lijogdfljk wrote:
| Man it just sounds like such a miserable drone workplace
| to have no one laughing.
|
| Giving up on laughter seems a "baby with the bathwater"
| approach to inclusiveness. I suppose being miserable is
| rather inclusive though :/
| jimmyjazz14 wrote:
| I've been able to laugh and joke around with people I work
| with from all over the globe (literally), its one of the
| most valuable tools I have found to create a sense of ease
| of friendliness in the workplace. Self deprecating humor is
| also a great way to show that you don't take yourself to
| serious and to ease tensions when divisiveness may arise. I
| think the better suggestion is to not talk about politics
| and don't gossip.
| hprotagonist wrote:
| dad joke time.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| If you can't tell a joke without insulting someone, the
| fault isn't with humor, it's with you.
| bachmeier wrote:
| Or you could spend your energy doing your job rather than
| figuring out which jokes are safe.
|
| [Tells joke about Bob] [No laughter] [Bob is on the
| conference call]
|
| [Tells political joke] [Others think you're stupid but
| don't say anything]
| swatcoder wrote:
| It's not just about insults.
|
| If you come into a tight culture of people who will riff
| all day on harmless puns, or crack references to old
| Jersey Shore dramas, or whatever, it can be acutely
| alienating.
|
| I wouldn't personally want to work in a place so sterile,
| but I also feel confident in my ability to float around
| and either find a lively culture that suits me or work my
| way into a culture that once felt alienating.
|
| But not everybody feels so confident in that, and sterile
| results-focused work communities get the opportunity to
| have these people thrive.
|
| That sounds good for those people and for those
| organizations.
|
| As long as the whole job market isn't made to look that
| way, I'm not sure there's a big critique to make.
| drewcoo wrote:
| > a tight culture of people . . . can be acutely
| alienating
|
| Exactly. And people are saying "don't rob us of our
| culture." That ain't woke.
| munk-a wrote:
| I think that most people can't - and that'd make avoiding
| jokes a good rule for the majority to follow.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| Disagree. Insult everyone approximately equally is a much
| more tractable goal and delivers far better results.
|
| There's a line to be walked but it's not hard, it just
| takes practice.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| Since it's included with "gossip" I assume it's to avoid
| insulting people (intentionally or accidentally), but
| suggesting that humor is off limits entirely is an outrageous
| over-correction.
|
| Ironically I think the author has included an incredibly
| divisive opinion in a post about being less divisive, and has
| therefore dissolved any authority on the matter.
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| It didn't suggest any such thing though. It said joke and
| laugh _less_. It didn 't forbid them.
|
| Humor that doesn't offend can be hard to pull off. If you
| crack jokes regularly, odds are high some of them will be
| offensive.
|
| Most people are quick to assume you are _laughing at them,
| not with them._ So if you are laughing a lot at work, odds
| are good someone will take that as mocking, as disrespect,
| as you not being adequately serious about the job.
|
| If you are careful with humor, you can do good things with
| it. People who joke habitually are probably not being
| careful with it.
| jimmyjazz14 wrote:
| Sounds like maybe you need some new coworkers because
| where I work we laugh and joke around all the time and
| nobody ever gets offended (or offers offense).
| [deleted]
| tyrfing wrote:
| Most jokes build on shared context, therefore jokes are
| inherently exclusionary and discriminatory by excluding
| people without the shared context. Avoiding most humor is
| thus a good idea.
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