[HN Gopher] The Psychedelic Experience: A new concept in psychot...
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The Psychedelic Experience: A new concept in psychotherapy (1962)
[pdf]
Author : bingden
Score : 66 points
Date : 2022-04-24 17:42 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (erowid.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (erowid.org)
| bingden wrote:
| https://sci-hubtw.hkvisa.net/10.1080/02791072.1968.10524522 also
| works
| ArtWomb wrote:
| "Psychedelics are to the study of the mind, what the microscope
| is to biology and the telescope is to astronomy" -Stanislas Grof.
|
| While it feels like an artifact from the future, Berkeley CSP is
| now formally certifying "facilitators". And its important to
| note, because the cure is the experience. Not the actual
| biochemistry. We know a lot about the botany and chemistry of
| these compounds. And we can actually map phenotypes with human
| genes to predict certain effects. But the missing bridge between
| the two is the trip. The fact that we are finally after so many
| millennia attempting to apply Baconian methods to what was
| hitherto described as quasi-miraculous feats mystical exploration
| is exciting. And I believe will be fruitful, though in the short
| term generate many more questions than answers ;)
|
| https://bcsp.berkeley.edu/training/
| pmoriarty wrote:
| I'm happy to see research done, wish these researchers nothing
| but the best, and do expect a lot of marvelous and useful
| discoveries to be made.
|
| However, I suspect that science will run in to hard limits
| regarding the deepest questions that contact with these
| substances raise -- such as the fundamental mystery they often
| reveal that is ineffable, transverbal and non-conceptual.
|
| These questions are more aptly addressed by philosophy and
| religion, and I expect that after an initial phase of medical
| and hard-science attempts to engage with the experiences these
| substances occasion (attempts that the highly rational and in
| some ways science-worshipping society demands before these
| substances can be legalized), most people's engagement will
| move to a religious and religio-medical model (or call it
| "spiritual" if you don't like the word "religious").
|
| Psychedelics have shown to be catalysts for starting religions,
| occasioning mystical experiences, and converting people.. and
| these tendencies will only increase as psychedelic use becomes
| more popular. New religions will sprout and existing religions
| will try to incorporate psychedelic use once they see these
| substances revitalizing religious feeling and engagement.
|
| We're only starting to see the barest hints of this now,
| because most religious people aren't aware of psychedelics'
| potential in this area.. but this trend will almost certainly
| flourish once they are. There might be a backlash on some
| level, as some religions are allergic to giving their adherents
| direct access to what their authorities are supposed to have a
| monopoly over.. but it's not clear whether such suppression
| will be effective this time.
|
| Religious wars over psychedelic revelations might be possible
| too. It's too early to tell, but it'll be an interesting next
| couple of hundred years, that's for sure.
| ArtWomb wrote:
| Alan Watts, I think put it best: The most important
| philosophical question you can ever ask is "Who Am I"?
|
| And that's what we are talking about here: seeing yourself,
| perhaps for the first time. Not societies expectation, the
| fount of all our neuroses. And undergoing the "ego-
| dissolution" the opens the door to healing.
|
| If you think about it: what is an addict? Rationally, they
| wish to cease. But physically, behaviorally cannot. Yet, here
| is a substance that in essence super-charges the rational
| mind. Instantly. The transformation is so acute, the old
| habits seem impossible.
|
| Now imagine your own mind, programmed to optimal turbo-
| charged rationality. Always picking the perfect action in any
| environment. Scale that across humanity and the
| possibilities, as stated, are not just new religions, but new
| evolutions ;)
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| This is an incredible article. So beautifully and sensitively
| written. It is wonderful to know that the methods described here
| are just now becoming possible to enact legally.
|
| But damn. Here's the rough schedule: 200 mcg LSD at 9am followed
| up an hour later by a full dose of mescaline and then 5 hours
| later a dose of amphetamine. At 5:30p they are sent home with a
| friend and given a sleeping pill.
|
| I've tried a lot, but that's quite a day.
| LB232323 wrote:
| swayvil wrote:
| Assuming a "spiritual" dimension, it's fair to say that there
| are an infinite number of ways to navigate it.
| BobOfW wrote:
| Christianity is thousands of years old. If it was the answer to
| the ills of our nation, it would have worked already.
| [deleted]
| Stevvo wrote:
| Research in this field went through a dark age of 50 years,
| inspiring to see the government is relenting a little.
| tomatowurst wrote:
| i say it again and again whenever i see these threads:
|
| psilocybin mushroom kicks down depression so hard it can't get up
| and bother you again.
|
| no SSRIs, no marijuana after taking it.
|
| anxiety and ptsd are still there tho so i think that requires
| something else. also something about THC that seems to reverse
| the benefits I got from psilocybin. cessation of THC seems to put
| me "back" on track if that makes sense.
|
| disclaimer: ymmv, please get a sitter, if not, do it outside
| (best to do it on the grass) where you are safe, comfortable, and
| calm.
| 867-5309 wrote:
| what is your dosage and frequency?
| radicaldreamer wrote:
| I've heard this is only effective at "heroic" doses -- most
| studies also use a high dose (>= 25 mg psilocybin)
| tomatowurst wrote:
| going to be honest i really don't buy this microdose, your
| body will quickly build natural tolerance to psilocybin.
| this is not like THC or alcohol where you drink tiny
| amounts, the effects will be felt.
|
| it makes sense why the body builds tolerance to psilocybin
| so rapidly and half life is quite long (at least a month or
| two) for evolutionary purposes. which to me is interesting
| because it shows that we've evolved to build tolerance
| against it but THC takes far longer and in very high doses
| to build tolerance.
|
| all in all, I've read accounts of people seeing positive
| changes with microdosing but for my case, while I did not
| take heroic doses (McKenna's 5 grams), I took at best 2 to
| 3 grams. In higher doses I had a transcendental
| experience....
|
| while nobody has died from taking psilocybin outright,
| there had been reported incidents where it had impact on
| somebody prone to schizophrenia and psychosis. However its
| extremely rare. This is why I suggest to people to have a
| sitter and be at a ground level.
|
| It's not an issue for the millions of people that take it
| but if you've never even smoked marijuana before and this
| is your first try, please get a sitter.
| Trasmatta wrote:
| > it makes sense why the body builds tolerance to
| psilocybin so rapidly and half life is quite long (at
| least a month or two) for evolutionary purposes
|
| The half life of psilocybin is only a couple of hours,
| not a couple of months. The mental after effects can
| linger for a long time of course, if that's what you
| mean.
| tomatowurst wrote:
| i mean when you redose, its effect will be significantly
| diminished. it is not something you can do
| recreationally, "only on the weekends" type of thing.
| renewiltord wrote:
| I feel highly motivated when on and for a period after coming
| down. Dose: 3.5 mg dry fruit. Frequency: Maybe once a month;
| only recreationally with friends.
| radicaldreamer wrote:
| I think THC affects some people by kicking their anxiety into
| high gear (I know that's the case for me). One day, we'll
| probably figure out the genetics underlying that effect.
| wnolens wrote:
| This is true for me. But it wasn't always the case.
|
| It used to be a release from the grip of boredom and permit
| my brain to dance about joyfully.
|
| Now it flips my anxiety switch and I get stuck in a self
| conscious loop. Almost the opposite. Wish I could go back.
| tomatowurst wrote:
| was why i stopped taking marijuana, if absolutely need be,
| a low THC + high CBD combination seems to put anxiety at
| bay but what I dislike is the racing thoughts, the euphoria
| that kicks you out of boredom but keeps you coming back.
|
| some people don't seem to have it as bad but for me I
| really struggle with the popular belief that marijuana is
| harmless. We simply don't know, we are guinea pigs with
| these high thc marijuana.
|
| I certainly wasn't my best with it, it magnified emotions
| and past memories, it exasperated my OCD/ADD. Looking back,
| I really wish I hadn't used marijuana but at the same time,
| glad I went through that phase when I was younger.
| Malp wrote:
| Absolutely. I'll add that there has been some preliminary
| exploration[0] into the genetics already; many would dismiss
| the psychotic and psychedelic (often disturbing and
| unpleasant) trips that some experience from THC (or cannabis,
| but this study focused on THC rather than other cannabinoids
| that may have been present), but there's already an
| established case that suggest that it's not simply an
| anxiety-ridden trip.
|
| 0: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4872423/
| robbedpeter wrote:
| For me, the paranoid/anxious/fixated type of high can be a
| feature, not a bug. I try to meditate when it happens.
| Marijuana can be a tool to exaggerate the way you're feeling
| about mistakes, shortcomings, and flaws you perceive in
| yourself, and when you're not high, you can assess what to do
| about how you're feeling. It's helped me make peace with my
| self image, and forced me to confront negative habits and
| patterns in my life.
|
| Drugs can be great to poke and prod your psyche and help with
| questions like "why do I think or feel like this?"
|
| Identifying things in your environment that trigger anxiety
| or paranoia can also make your home a more comfortable and
| cozy place. When your perception is altered, it's an
| opportunity to learn new things. The new perspective can be a
| valuable tool for becoming a better version of yourself.
| wnolens wrote:
| Any advice on the sitter? I don't have the perfect friend
| available, not sure there's an option here except to do it
| alone or not at all
| DocG wrote:
| 1. You can have friend at your place nearby playing computer
| games or something else. Just there incase you panic or have
| issues. They should read up a bit before. Basically they are
| there to tell you that, example, you get anxiety, that you
| are fine and what you are feeling is not real and let go.
|
| 2. If no one is around stat with super low dose first time.
| And grow from there over months if you are scared. You'll
| understand after low dose what's coming and thank yourself
| later.
|
| 2. You can not have any and I mean any plans for that day.
| Not even I'll have to take the trash out in the evening,
| seriously. Turn the phone to airplane so no one can call and
| block messages. You do not want anything that requires
| functioning human from you. You could do that but it will
| ruin your time.
|
| 4. Outside - no matter how cozy your home is do it in your
| country house or somewhere where you are alone and feel safe,
| have a fallback house or place but still in nature. Dunno,
| rent something.
| ghostly_s wrote:
| People might take your more seriously if you acknowledged that
| your personal experience is not necessarily universally
| applicable to the very large group of people who suffer
| depression.
| tomatowurst wrote:
| I'm not alone that psilocybin has improved or outright
| "cured" depression in people, you will find plenty of studies
| and articles on this.
| ghostly_s wrote:
| I'm not suggesting you are - but that gives you no basis to
| claim it is a guaranteed cure for all sufferers of
| depression.
| in3d wrote:
| Also ketamine. Lots of scientific and anecdotal evidence is
| accumulating every month. It might also work for other mind-
| related issues, such as eating disorders.
| GordonS wrote:
| I've suffered from life-long depression, since I was around 5
| years old. I won't go into the details here, but it will
| suffice to say that it's been a fucking horrible waste of
| life.
|
| A couple of years ago I was prescribed ketamine (multiple
| times a day, taken orally, a non-psychoactive dose) for an
| unrelated chronic neuropathic pain condition... and I feel
| like it's _cured_ my depression! It really is an absolutely
| _incredible_ drug - I only wish it was more widely available
| to others in my situation.
| Trasmatta wrote:
| > disclaimer: ymmv, please get a sitter, if not, do it outside
| (best to do it on the grass) where you are safe, comfortable,
| and calm.
|
| I just want to echo how important this disclaimer is. There's
| no free lunch, and psilocybin can be incredibly challenging.
| For some people it is massively helpful for depression, but
| this is not a guarantee. Do your research and have a guide (if
| at all possible).
| vmception wrote:
| I just want to get to the point where what you wrote is
| written in fine print on the side of a bottle, specifically
| because the FDA saw it happen in the clinical trials for that
| specific use case
|
| Instead we are just left with this hodgepodge of random
| completely different experiences controlled for nothing
| pmoriarty wrote:
| Something else that's critically important is to make sure
| you know what you're getting is actually psilocybin and not
| something else, and that the dosage actually is what you
| expect.
|
| If you're part of a research study at a respected
| institution, that's easy. Not so easy if you're getting it on
| the black/gray market or picking mushrooms yourself.
|
| So if you have to get it from the black/gray market, educate
| yourself thoroughly on how to tell if it's real and what the
| dosage you're getting is.
|
| Alan Rockefeller has some great videos on psilocybin mushroom
| identification: [1] [2]
|
| [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pInqVRRva7M
|
| [2] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcL-7u80kjs
| loceng wrote:
| They're openly being sold in Canada; I believe end-of-life
| care research had such positive results that has now lead
| to it now being given to terminally ill cancer patients to
| help them come to terms with their situation.
|
| https://dose.land
|
| You may end up on a list but that didn't stop marijuana for
| propagating through society when illegal; now legal in
| Canada, widely available, a big industry, and tax revenue
| source.
| ghostly_s wrote:
| Psylocibin mushrooms are easy to propagate (as far as
| mushrooms go) and I'm not aware of any other psychoactive
| chemicals found in mushrooms that won't kill you, so what
| is it that you are concerned about? I've never heard of
| someone buying "counterfeit" magic mushrooms.
| pmoriarty wrote:
| _" I've never heard of someone buying "counterfeit" magic
| mushrooms."_
|
| Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean it
| doesn't happen.
|
| First, mushrooms can be misidentified, due to
| carelessness or ignorance. A misidentified mushroom can
| be poisonous. So that's my primary concern.
|
| Second, it's easy to just add whatever chemical you want
| to non-psychedelic mushrooms, so it's quite possible that
| you'll get some non-psychedelic mushrooms with some
| mystery drug added to them.
|
| Third, if someone on the street (or even a friend) offers
| you something they claim is psilocybin, there's no way of
| knowing if it really is psilocybin unless you test it.
|
| Figuring out the substance's purity/dosage is even more
| difficult, as labs in the US that do commercial drug
| testing aren't legally allowed to report purity, and
| reagent testing isn't going to tell you.
|
| The amount of psilocybin/psilocyin in mushrooms also
| varies greatly, so going by gram of mushroom weight (dry
| or fresh?) isn't very reliable.. especially if you don't
| know exactly which species _each_ of the mushrooms are
| and someone 's just selling you some mystery "magic
| mushrooms".
| tomatowurst wrote:
| This is ridiculous. People selling psilocybin mushrooms
| aren't going out of their way to sell you counterfeits
| because the profit margin is already so low for this
| category and you could easily tell apart shitake
| mushrooms from psilocybin mushrooms.
|
| Nobody is on the streets selling psilocybin like they
| sell other drugs, it would be like people trying to pass
| off broccoli as marijuana.
|
| I'm sorry but you sound like Nancy Reagan right now. You
| are trying to warn people about something that you
| yourself have barely experienced or knowledgeable about
| by taking some other tangent item and applying it here
| because it is "drugs".
| pmoriarty wrote:
| What assurance do I have that some rando at a festival
| who claims to have "magic mushrooms" is actually selling
| psylocybin mushrooms? None.
|
| They might have picked some "little brown mushrooms" in a
| field somewhere thinking they were psylocybin mushrooms
| but not gone to the effort to identify them properly, or
| just not known how to do it, or made a mistake. Or maybe
| they got it from someone who told them that's what they
| were, but themselves didn't know, etc.
|
| Or they (or their supplier) might have gone the easy
| route and bought some mushrooms and sprinkled some "bath
| salts" on them.
|
| As a consumer you just don't know -- especially if
| they're dried, crumbled mushrooms which could be just
| about anything or a mix of stuff.
|
| It's just sad hearing people who are so adamantly
| determined to stick their head in the sand and trust
| whatever drug they're being peddled is what their dealer
| claims it is.
|
| Nancy Reagan's famous line was "Just say no." I'm _not_
| saying "Just say no". I'm saying "Just say _know_. "
|
| Educate yourself. Test your stuff. Be smart. Don't just
| guzzle down whatever you're given without satisfying
| yourself that it actually is what your provider claims it
| is.
| ghostly_s wrote:
| Why would someone waste their time foraging for
| psylocibin mushrooms to sell? They can be grown for
| basically free and in much larger quantities. Dried
| psylocibin mushrooms are still easily identifiable. If a
| rando drug dealer was claiming to have psylocibin
| capsules, for instance, sure, that would give me pause.
| But again - have you EVER heard of this happening? I've
| not. You're talking nonsense.
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| Be deliberate and have fun. _And always know that you will
| sober up._ you are on drugs -- you aren't crazy -- you will
| be fine -- you didn't break your brain.
| jokowueu wrote:
| For PTSD i recommend taking a look at stellate gangelion block
|
| https://youtu.be/nC2fBe6U7lg
| jstx1 wrote:
| Why psilocybin and not LSD?
| pmoriarty wrote:
| The focus of recent research in to psychedelics has been on
| psilocybin rather than LSD because, as one researcher joked,
| politicians don't know how to spell psilocybin.
|
| LSD still has some scary connotations towards some of the
| older generation based on the sensationalism and scare-
| mongering of the 60's and 70's, while most people didn't know
| about psilocybin until researchers started reporting positive
| things about it in the last decade or so.
|
| There have been some studies that showed that even
| experienced psychedelic users can't tell the difference
| between the major classic psychedelics, so there might be
| much actual difference between LSD and psilocybin in the last
| analysis... though more research is definitely needed.
|
| Still, if any classic psychedelic is legalized in the US, the
| first one will probably be psilocybin.. and research will
| continue to focus mostly on it, for the above mentioned
| reasons.
| supertofu wrote:
| Ayahuasca "cured" my depression. When I say "cured", I mean
| that it helped me experience my mind without depression.
| Because I was able to step out of depression for the first time
| since prepubescence, I realized it was _possible_ for my mind
| to exist away from depression. That realization was profound
| and critical to regaining my mental health.
|
| Psychedelics are very powerful. Ayahuasca in particular can and
| does induce psychotomimetic states, as described in the
| article. If you are not in ceremony with a trained plant
| medicine practitioner, this "pseudo psychosis" can become very
| overwhelming and even damaging.
| tomatowurst wrote:
| whew, ayahuasca is a whole different beast and frankly is
| frightens me and I don't think I ever want to be in a
| position where I do it.
|
| psilocybin's come up is frightening/anxiety/panic inducing as
| it is....I don't think I can ever jump over ayahuasca, that
| seems like a whole different animal.
|
| For me I feel like psilocybin "reset" my brain and there's
| some long lasting protection mechanism against depressive
| thinking. Even if I do feel down, something pulls me out of
| it. Whereas depression once it pulls you in, it likes to keep
| you there.
|
| Do not take psychedelics lightly, especially ayahuasca and
| heroic doses. Even for the come up on psilocybin, it required
| considerable self calming and focused willpower to overcome
| the fear of losing ego. But my god, what comes after, the
| clarity, the peace, love and lingering positivity....zero
| chance the pharmaceutical community will be able to replicate
| it.
| pmoriarty wrote:
| Ayahuasca brews vary widely in composition, depending on
| who brews it.
|
| I'd be very wary of some self-styled shaman adding datura
| or some other nightshade plant to the brew (which is not
| unheard of), and that's something I definitely want to stay
| far, far away from.
|
| Unless I was brewing it myself I'd want nothing to do with
| it either, because I couldn't be sure of what I was
| getting.
| tomatowurst wrote:
| heard lot of horror stories of self-proclaimed shamans
| trying to capitalize financially. datura is scary
| stuff...
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