[HN Gopher] A Swedish skier was basically frozen, but lived (2016)
___________________________________________________________________
A Swedish skier was basically frozen, but lived (2016)
Author : Anon84
Score : 165 points
Date : 2022-04-24 14:07 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.atlasobscura.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.atlasobscura.com)
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| What's cool, is that it does not seem to have resulted in
| permanent injury.
|
| She is currently an MD at a Norwegian University hospital, and
| looks to be doing great.
| worldsayshi wrote:
| This article makes me wonder if rapid cooling could help save
| you from brain damage in case of a stroke or similar.
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| Yes.
|
| https://www.brainandlife.org/articles/cooling-to-prevent-
| str...
| Rastonbury wrote:
| I wonder what caused the neck down paralysis initially and how
| it recovered, usually there isn't much scope for recovery from
| that.
| aaaaaaaaaaab wrote:
| >I wonder what caused the neck down paralysis initially
|
| Nerve damage.
|
| >and how it recovered
|
| The nerves healed.
| sterlind wrote:
| nerve damage to the spinal cord? or peripheral nerves? why
| did the nerve damage there take longer to reverse than
| nerve damage in the brain?
|
| also, what do you mean by damage exactly? the axons
| presumably weren't damaged. the neurons were apparently not
| "online" but presumably didn't go through apoptosis. do you
| mean metabolic dysfunction?
| Noe2097 wrote:
| I discovered a few years ago that thanks to this kind of
| "experience", forced hypothermia is now used to prevent brain
| damage to new borns who suffered from loss of oxygen during
| delivery.
|
| Our second son was (initially, thankfully) stillborn after a
| complicated delivery, yet the medical team managed to revive him
| and immediately put him in hypothermia (to 34deg C), surrounding
| his head with some apparel containing essentially ice. Fast
| forward the 5 most painful days of my life, doctors warmed him
| back very slowly. He is now 4, and showing completely "normal"
| (in the statistical sense of the term) development.
|
| Indeed, brain damage is not immediate in case of oxygen loss. It
| happens in phases. I am no expert, but I understood that most
| damage happen not immediately, and happen even if oxygen has been
| restored. Slowing down the body through hypothermia, seems to
| avoid the brain to "collapse".
|
| Discussing with the head of the department (for a mandatory
| "retrospective"), he explained me that this technique had been
| devised after seeing that people who drowned in very cold water
| could be revived with less "impact" on their capacities than
| others. He also explained me that the technique was not always
| successful, but was the only "treatment" that had shown actual
| improvement of recovery chances in this kind of cases.
| js2 wrote:
| There's more detail on her wikipedia page:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Bagenholm
|
| These are the tidbits I found most interesting:
|
| > A team of more than a hundred doctors and nurses worked in
| shifts for nine hours to save her life. Bagenholm woke up ten
| days after the accident, paralyzed from the neck down and
| subsequently spent two months recovering in an intensive care
| unit. Although she has made an almost full recovery from the
| incident, late in 2009 she was still suffering from minor
| symptoms in hands and feet related to nerve injury.
|
| > "Her body had time to cool down completely before the heart
| stopped. Her brain was so cold when the heart stopped that the
| brain cells needed very little oxygen, so the brain could survive
| for quite a prolonged time."
|
| > "victims of very deep accidental hypothermia with circulatory
| arrest should be seen as potentially resuscitable with a prospect
| of full recovery. The key success factors of such marginal
| resuscitation efforts are early bystander actions with vigorous
| CPR and early warning of the emergency system, early dispatch of
| adequate rescue units (ground and air-ambulances) and good co-
| ordination between the resources outside and inside the hospital,
| aggressive rewarming and a spirit not to give up."
|
| > Bagenholm [upon waking paralyzed] feared she would spend the
| rest of her life on her back, and was angry with her colleagues
| for saving her. Bagenholm soon recovered from the paralysis,
| however, and later apologized to her friends; "I was very
| irritated when I realized they had saved me. I feared a
| meaningless life, without any dignity. Now I am very happy to be
| alive and want to apologize."
| ever1 wrote:
| Thanks, the temperatures in the article means nothing for those
| who don't speak Fahrenheit...
| DougMellon wrote:
| 56.7F = 13.7C
| kurthr wrote:
| Because 12C ~ 21F there are some convenient temperatures to
| interpolate between.
|
| of course 0C = 32F and -40C = -40F but also (within a degree
| F): 04C = 40F 16C = 61F 28C =
| 82F 40C = 104F
|
| note that the last two digits are always reversed.
|
| below 0C they get less useful -08C = 18F
| -19C =-1.9F -31C = -23F
| rags2riches wrote:
| "When it's springtime in Alaska, it's forty below". That's
| all I have managed to memorize about temperature conversion
| so far in my life.
| js2 wrote:
| Interesting strategy. I long ago memorized 20C = 68F and
| then adjust in increments of 5/9, which works well enough
| for the range of temperatures I consider habitable. I've
| gotten so good at this I once translated on the fly between
| some fellow American and European runners during a
| marathon. :-)
| [deleted]
| js2 wrote:
| As to the first point, the cost of this care had to be in the
| millions, or would be in the U.S. anyway. My MIL recently had
| extended care due to a fall and the bill was $500K. Fortunately
| after Medicare, cost to her was $1300.
|
| In any case, it's still an extraordinary allocation of
| resources to save one life. According to
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Norway:
|
| > Expenditure on healthcare is about 7,727 USD per person per
| year in 2020, among the highest in the world. While the
| availability of public healthcare is universal in Norway, there
| are certain payment stipulations. Children aged sixteen or
| younger, and several other groups (such as nursing women and
| retirees) are given free healthcare regardless of the coverage
| they may have had in previous situations. All other citizens
| are responsible for paying a certain amount in user fees. If
| they reach a certain amount of money paid out-of-pocket, they
| receive an exemption card (frikort for helsetjenester in
| Norwegian) for public health services, and they no longer have
| to pay user fees for the remainder of the calendar year. The
| amount is 2460 NOK in 2021, or about 264 USD. Everything above
| this amount is given for free for the rest of that year.
|
| She went on to become a radiologist so probably pays a decent
| amount in taxes now. As well, as a radiologist, she now helps
| to care for others. But still, she'll never "pay back" what was
| expended on saving her life.
|
| I'm not trying to make any point here, other than that humans
| are weird in how we allocate resources to each other.
|
| Edit to add:
|
| I didn't mean to spawn a whole conversation about U.S. vs
| European healthcare, and my point above is not well made.
|
| I'm just lamenting how 100 humans will come together to save
| one life while we still allow over a half million people a year
| to die from malaria. You'll see a dozen humans rescue a dog
| during a flood while I don't even want to look up the number of
| dogs that are euthanized. How the world came together to save
| those kids from the Thai cave, but we can't collectively figure
| out how to deal compassionately with immigrants.
|
| I know we're just doing the best we can as a species. But I can
| still be both amazed by a symphony orchestra and sad that we
| use those same brains to build F-22s.
|
| Also, FWIW, as a U.S. citizen, my vote is for Medicare For All,
| or failing that, a price-regulated multi-payer system like
| Germany's.
| lostlogin wrote:
| > But still, she'll never "pay back" what was expended on
| saving her life.
|
| I'm not so sure. In direct taxes, maybe not. But she earns a
| wage and and spends that too. The shops she spends at pay
| tax, and that money goes around. Unless she burns her money,
| her contribution to society in money alone is a lot greater
| than just her own tax bill.
| ajsnigrutin wrote:
| Why would it cost millions? The private US hospital might
| charge millions, but if you have a government healthcare
| system, the cost is basically paychecks + rent + equipment
| amortization + medicine + "other" (food, cleaning,...).
|
| I'm not sure what exatly they did to the frozen woman, but
| for your MIL, that would probably take a few dedicated
| doctors hours, a few dedicated hours of nurse care (both
| spread out over the whole stay), some xrays and other scans,
| and all together would get up to a few thousands of euros
| max.... usually even less.
| karencarits wrote:
| I guess the numbers are difficult to get exactly right but
| the cost per day at ICU seems to be about 50 000 2019-NOK
| in Norway [1] (70 000 the first day, half the next).
|
| By comparison (in 2005 dollars), "Using data from 253 U.S.
| hospitals, Dasta and colleagues found that the average
| daily cost for ICU patients decreased from $7,728 to $3,872
| to $3,436 on Days 1 to 3" [2].
|
| $7 700 in 2005 is about $11 000 today, and 70 000 NOK is
| about $9 100 using exchange rate from 2019 and adjusted for
| inflation
|
| [1] https://legemiddelverket.no/Documents/Offentlig%2520fin
| ansie...
|
| [2] https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/10.1513/AnnalsATS.20150
| 6-366...
| mint2 wrote:
| The high cost difference part is remarkable but the "she'll
| never pay it back" part seems to me like observing a mega
| millions lottery winner will never pay back the prize money
| with future ticket purchases. Isn't that the whole point of
| the lottery or health insurance? Getting a benefit that
| society as a whole can afford but no reasonable individual
| can.
| [deleted]
| largbae wrote:
| This, and furthermore the scientific value of proving that
| this can be done has value too. Imagine trying to
| compensate someone to undergo this experiment willingly...
| yashap wrote:
| Humans place a high priority on saving the lives of their
| countrymen/women, and IMO that makes a lot of sense. It's not
| about "hopefully she pays that back in taxes in the future,"
| it's "I want to live in a society where, if my life can be
| saved, we don't let me die to save money" - or the same for
| you family, friends, coworkers, etc.
|
| Also worth noting that American healthcare is exceptionally
| expensive, which may be biasing your view of medical costs.
| American healthcare costs about double other similar nations,
| per capita: https://www.cihi.ca/en/how-does-canadas-health-
| spending-comp...
|
| Whatever it did cost in Norway, it was probably very roughly
| half what it would have cost in America.
| mgdlbp wrote:
| But it's also these extreme cases that most expand the limits
| of our medical understanding and ability, such advancement
| being analogous to dividends that will pay out for all
| eternity.
|
| The Wikipedia page does mention Bagenholm's case becoming a
| literal textbook example (and links to a paywalled case
| study).
| aaaaaaaaaaab wrote:
| 1. Healthcare costs in the US are artificially inflated. You
| can't compare the two.
|
| 2. This is the whole point of insurance. The majority loses
| money overall, but the outliers win. The point is that the
| outlier might be you.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| >> to become a radiologist so probably pays a decent amount
| in taxes now.
|
| Specialist doctors are one of those jobs that is on the cusp
| of tax planning/avoidance technology. Once you are touching
| 1mil per year you have enough money to engage proper tax
| professionals to take care of your money. In the US they will
| run their practice as a business rather be any sort of
| employee. Offshore trusts, spendthrifts, deferals ... I
| wouldn't assume that every doctor suffers a huge tax bill
| each year.
| golergka wrote:
| Do you seriously think that doctors get 1mil per year
| anywhere outside of the US?
| siva7 wrote:
| I fear that most americans aren't aware how vastly
| different wages are in europe and for what reasons
| willbw wrote:
| In Australia it's not uncommon but that's also
| exceptional.
| ec109685 wrote:
| If she wasn't using those resources, would the country have
| saved all that much? These folks were all employed and
| working, ready for less extraordinary situations, and thus
| available for a situation like this.
| bombcar wrote:
| Norwegian doctors spring into existence at the moment of
| need and cease to exist once the need is over.
|
| The accounting for things like this is the same that
| results in saying space craft toilets cost fifty billion
| dollars.
|
| In reality there is some costs associated with consumables,
| overtime, etc that could be avoided but it's hard to
| account for the costs that would have been spent "anyway".
|
| Perhaps you could argue that there was care neglected in
| other aspects of the facility, but given the strangeness of
| the situation it's likely that many involved were involved
| only peripherally and/or would have been doing research
| anyway.
| jollybean wrote:
| There's almost unlimited demand for Healthcare services in
| modern countries. That said, some uses are better than
| others.
| thebruce87m wrote:
| > Fortunately after Medicare, cost to her was $1300
|
| I know what you mean here, but I can't help but read this as:
|
| > Unfortunately, despite Medicare, she still had to pay
| $1300.
| [deleted]
| jollybean wrote:
| ? Why would having 100 people work day and night to labour
| over you costing $1300 be a problem. Even by a civic
| standard it could have been very expensive and that would
| have been 'fair'.
| daleharvey wrote:
| Because some people regard attempting to literally
| quantify the value of someones life into a dollar amount
| to be a "problem"
| js2 wrote:
| You pay for Medicare out of your paycheck your entire
| career, and you continue to pay for supplementary
| insurance after that.
|
| There's an argument for paying a token user fee to
| discourage overuse of the medical system, but that isn't
| the case here.
| blkhawk wrote:
| Because we as a society (Germany in my case) already are
| already paying them for their work. Why would anybody
| bill an unfortunate soul for their misfortune?
|
| This outlier is why health insurance exists in most
| countries.
| jollybean wrote:
| This is the kind of entitled attitude that destroys any
| hope of productive socialism.
|
| As an extreme example - you don't 'pay taxes' so that the
| government will launch a $20 million dollar rescue
| operation to save your life from deadly illness while on
| an arctic operation. You're just going to die.
|
| We do a form medial triage on everything (there's an
| unlimited demand for medical services) and it's largely
| resources based.
|
| Ex: COVID antivirals - not everyone gets them. They are
| rationed.
|
| Every service definitely has it's limits, costs get out
| of hand at the far end of the spectrum on pretty much
| everything you can imagine.
|
| Which is why 'co pays' are entirely rational - and likely
| more fair - form of paying for services, in fact it's
| surprising they are not more common.
|
| A $20K bill for having 'having a baby' is outrageous as
| it happens in the US, but for '100 medical professionals
| in attendance' at once isn't unreasonable at all.
| thebruce87m wrote:
| From a country that doesn't have copays, I'm happy with
| the service I get and I don't wish for copays. My dad
| died of cancer last year - the treatments and service he
| received were excellent. He even got _extra_ money along
| the way due to his illness and I'm glad my surviving
| mother is left with the entirety of his estate instead of
| bills to pay.
| blkhawk wrote:
| Yes that's exactly what the government collects taxes
| for. That is what say the Bergrettung does. Or what the
| Coast guard does if there is somebody lost at sea.
|
| Also if somebody on an Antarctic base gets sick and can
| be evacuated they get evacuated - that is also exactly
| what you describe.
|
| OFC there is triage _but_ in normal time we have no
| medical triage aside from a very soft form of it in that
| non-life threatening and non-urgent procedures are
| scheduled and delayed as needed.
|
| Co pays for non-elective are only rational if the amounts
| are negligible even for the most impoverished patient and
| then its easier and cost effective just to not haver them
| at all.
| kzrdude wrote:
| Morbid curiosity or mean comment maybe, but what's the price
| tag on a Sea King ambulance helicopter rescue in the U.S.?
|
| But in most countries that kind of service is just not
| available. It is highly available in Norway due to the oil
| industry needs, the many islands and mountains making it
| useful, and generally very high standard of living.
| karencarits wrote:
| For reference, the operating cost of such rescue helicopter
| (including crew) is about 100 000 NOK per hour in Norway
| [1] or ~$11 000.
|
| [1] https://ambulanseforum.no/artikler/redningsaksjonen-
| kostet-r...
| jansan wrote:
| Fahrenheit is such a dumb temperature scale. Daniel Gabriel
| Fahrenheit simply took the lowest outside winter temperature of
| his hometown as zero and the highest summer termperature as 100
| degrees. If he had lived somewhere else or at a different time,
| the temperature scale would be different.
|
| Although Fahrenheit was German, Germany does not use this scale.
| It would be nice if the remaining parts of the world that still
| use the Fahrenheit scale could eventually switch to Celsius which
| at least makes a little bit of sense.
| hexane360 wrote:
| Fahrenheit was actually defined so 0 degF was the freezing
| point of brine, and 100 degF was roughly human body
| temperature.
| jansan wrote:
| I had a different source, but Wikipedia says that you are
| correct.
| dskloet wrote:
| > Even after a couple of hours out of the water, Bagenholm's core
| temperature was 56.7 degrees Farenheit
|
| 13.7 Celsius
| hedgehog wrote:
| Clip of a short BBC interview with her:
| https://youtu.be/clvnGfE6ul0?t=63
| moneywoes wrote:
| Does this give credence to the freezing of brains that people
| under go post death?
| blkhawk wrote:
| no, the person in question wasn't frozen even if the headline
| says so. Her body temperature was lowered quite drastically and
| that slows down any damage dramatically.
|
| Actually freezing people without any type of antifreeze agent
| usually causes ice crystals to form and that damages cells in
| the whole body enough to make revival unlikely.
|
| Modern cryo uses antifreeze agents but since the people
| undergoing these procedure are already quite dead & those
| agents aren't really conducive to life either most of the time
| its still unclear if anybody frozen that way can be revived in
| the future at all.
| plebianRube wrote:
| > "We will not declare her dead until she is warm and dead."
|
| More cases of kids than adults surviving very low body
| temperatures, but the saying is true, as long as you're not warm
| and dead there is some hope.
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| Indeed. I'm an EMT and because of cases like this we're taught
| not to assume a cold or drowned patient is dead until they're
| warm and dead.
| hammock wrote:
| Not for nothing, with children there is often a greater "spirit
| not to give up."
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| That's true, but there's also a hypothesis that kids freeze
| quicker because of their lower body mass, which may make them
| shut down more uniformly with less damage. Which means
| thawing them out has a better chance of success.
| User23 wrote:
| It's absolutely true based on every EMT I've spoken to. Which,
| by the way, I highly recommend if you have the opportunity and
| the stomach for it. They have some wild stories to tell.
| adictator wrote:
| montroser wrote:
| See also Timothy Lancaster, a British Airways pilot who survived
| after an explosive decompression propelled his body out through
| the windscreen into -17degC conditions at 700km/h at FL170. He
| was pinned against the fuselage for 20 minutes with his feet
| hooked on the control column, while the first officer made an
| emergency descent and landed the plane.
|
| Lancaster made a full recovery, and continued his career as a
| commercial pilot for nearly 30 years following the incident.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_5390
|
| https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/pilot-sucked-airplane/
| fifilura wrote:
| There is also an extreme accident in Sweden where a couple of
| kids in a canoe survived (incidentially with Norwegian
| emergency care).
|
| One of them found with his face under the water at 14C body
| temperature surviving cardiac arrest for 6 hours.
|
| The extreme low body temperatures seems to be able to allow for
| surviving under extreme conditions, even without breathing for
| several hours.
|
| (a bit too fancy) article in swedish.
| https://mirakletiannsjon.story.aftonbladet.se/
|
| (google translate to english "Canadian" is a special type of
| canoe) https://mirakletiannsjon-story-aftonbladet-
| se.translate.goog...
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| > ...even without breathing for several hours.
|
| Isn't brain damage inevitable after just a few minutes?
| retrac wrote:
| Metabolic processes are dependent on temperature.
|
| Think of yeast cells. They barely survive at 10 degC, but
| they do get along in water and sugar, slowly. If you bring
| them up to their ideal temperature with a lot of food, they
| go into explosive growth and the solution starts
| aggressively bubbling. It's orders of magnitude more
| metabolic activity when it's warm. If you cool human cells
| down their metabolism and oxygen demands slow down in the
| same way.
|
| (Not coincidentally, yeast's happy temperature is not too
| different from normal human body temperature. A lot of
| biochemical processes go their fastest around ~35 degC or
| so without the involved molecules breaking down, and the
| mammalian trick was to keep all our cells at a near-ideal
| point all the time. We're aggressively bubbling solutions
| of CO2 all the time, normally.)
| fifilura wrote:
| This is the point.
|
| No it is not if you combine it with low body temperature.
| It is pretty amazing when you read about it.
|
| I think also some surgeons used this method, icing people
| before surgery. Not sure it is used anymore though since it
| may be a bit difficult to control.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_hypothermic_circulatory_
| a...
|
| (IIRC this kid suffered some brain damage though, but not
| severe enough to stopping him to continue going to school)
| gus_massa wrote:
| Not if the brain is cool enough, but don't try this at
| home.
|
| IIRC the trick is to restore oxygenation and circulation
| before restoring the temperature level.
| Sharlin wrote:
| In the end it's no different from preserving groceries by
| putting them into the fridge. Typically chemical reactions
| happen slower in lower temperatures, often exponentially
| slower. Damage can only occur at a rate constrained by
| chemistry.
| pge wrote:
| Bit of relevant trivia - in a number of languages other than
| English, "canoe" means both the style of boat we call a canoe
| in English and the thing we call a kayak. To distinguish the
| two, the one we call simply a "canoe" is called in those
| languages a "Canadian canoe" or "Canadian" for short.
| codetrotter wrote:
| My father is Swedish and used to have a Canadian canoe. He
| would refer to the canoe by its name most of the time but
| sometimes he and my grandfather would refer to it as
| "kanadensaren" ("the Canadian" in Swedish), and I never
| knew why until now. Thank you!
| xaedes wrote:
| Sounds like the ancients had similar thoughts as "We will not
| declare her dead until she is warm and dead.":
|
| https://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/sbe0411.htm
|
| From The Zend Avesta, Part I - FARGARD V.
|
| 10 (34). O Maker of the material world, thou Holy One! If the
| summer is past and _the winter has come_ , what shall the
| worshippers of Mazda do?
|
| Ahura Mazda answered: 'In every house? in every borough, they
| shall raise three small houses for the dead.'
|
| 11 (37). O Maker of the material world, thou Holy One! How large
| shall be those houses for the dead?
|
| Ahura Mazda answered: ' _Large enough not to strike the skull, or
| the feet, or the hands of the man, if he should stand erect, and
| hold out his feet, and stretch out his hands: such shall be,
| according to the law, the houses for the dead_.
|
| 12 (41). 'And they shall let the lifeless body lie there, for two
| nights, or for three nights, or a month long, until the birds-
| begin to fly, the plants to grow, the floods to flow, and the
| wind to dry up the waters from off the earth.
| alehlopeh wrote:
| Sounds like you're referring to a pretty specific brand of "the
| ancients" and I'm guessing it's not the ones from Stargate.
| Unfortunately when someone refers to "the ancients" in this
| way, my brain automatically assumes they are into some wacky
| new age stuff.
| xaedes wrote:
| Specifically I was referring to the Parsis and their
| Zoroastrian teachings. The introduction to the quoted book
| has put it in those words:
|
| https://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/sbe0402.htm#page_xi
|
| The Zend-Avesta is the sacred book of the Parsis, that is to
| say, of the few remaining followers of that religion which
| feigned over Persia at the time when the second successor of
| Mohammed overthrew the Sassanian dynasty [At the battle of
| Nihavand (642 A.C.)], and which has been called Dualism, or
| Mazdeism, or Magism, or Zoroastrianism, or Fire-worship,
| according as its main tenet, or its supreme God [Ahura
| Mazda], or its priests, or its supposed founder, or its
| apparent object of worship has been most kept in view.
|
| > Indeed, they are not the Stargate ancients. But in the same
| book they write about some other kind of "golden ring" with a
| most interesting coldness related story:
|
| https://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/sbe0408.htm
|
| 7 (17) 2. Then I, Ahura Mazda, brought two implements unto
| him: _a golden ring_ and a poniard inlaid with gold. Behold,
| here Yima bears the royal sway!
|
| 8 (20). Thus, under the sway of Yima, three hundred winters
| passed away, and the earth was replenished with flocks and
| herds, with men and dogs and birds and with red blazing
| fires, and there was no more room for flocks, herds, and men.
|
| 9. Then I warned the fair Yima, saying: 'O fair Yima, son of
| Vivanghat, the earth has become full of flocks and herds, of
| men and dogs and birds and of red blazing fires, and there is
| no more room for flocks, herds, and men.'
|
| 10. Then Yima stepped forward, towards the luminous space,
| southwards, to meet the sun, and (afterwards) he pressed the
| earth with the _golden ring_ , and bored it with the poniard,
| speaking thus:
|
| 'O Spenta Armaiti, kindly open asunder and stretch thyself
| afar, to bear flocks and herds and men.'
|
| 11. And Yima made the earth grow larger by one-third than it
| was before, and there came flocks and herds and men, at his
| will and wish, as many as he wished.
|
| 12 (23). Thus, under the sway of Yima, six hundred winters
| passed away, and the earth was replenished with flocks and
| herds, with men and dogs and birds and with red blazing
| fires, and there was no more room for flocks, herds, and men.
|
| > this process of using the golden ring is used multiple
| times, with a total of 1800 winters passing
|
| > but it is not over:
|
| 22 (46). And Ahura Mazda spake unto Yima, saying:
|
| 'O fair Yima, son of Vivanghat! Upon the material world the
| fatal winters are going to fall, that shall bring the fierce,
| foul frost; upon the material world the fatal winters are
| going to fall, that shall make snow-flakes fall thick, even
| an aredvi deep on the highest tops of mountains.
|
| 23 (52). And all the three sorts of beasts shall perish,
| those that live in the wilderness, and those that live on the
| tops of the mountains, and those that live in the bosom of
| the dale, under the shelter of stables.
|
| 24 (57). Before that winter, those fields would bear plenty
| of grass for cattle: now with floods that stream, with snows
| that melt, it will seem a happy land in the world, the land
| wherein footprints even of sheep may still be seen.
|
| 25 (61). Therefore make thee a Vara, long as a riding-ground
| on every side of the square, and thither bring the seeds of
| sheep and oxen, of men, of dogs, of birds, and of red blazing
| fires. Therefore make thee a Vara, long as a riding-ground on
| every side of the square, to be an abode for men; a Vara,
| long. as a riding-ground on every side of the square, to be a
| fold for flocks.
|
| 26 (65). There thou shalt make waters flow in a bed a hathra
| long; there thou shalt settle birds, by the ever-green banks
| that bear never-failing food. There thou shalt establish
| dwelling places, consisting of a house with a balcony, a
| courtyard, and a gallery.
|
| 27 (70). Thither thou shalt bring the seeds of men and women,
| of the greatest, best, and finest kinds on this earth;
| thither thou shalt bring the seeds of every kind of cattle,
| of the greatest, best, and finest kinds on this earth.
|
| 28 (74). Thither thou shalt bring the seeds of every kind of
| tree, of the greatest, best, and finest kinds on this earth;
| thither thou shalt bring the seeds of every kind of fruit,
| the fullest of food and sweetest of odour. All those seeds
| shalt thou bring, two of ever), kind, to be kept
| inexhaustible there, so long as those men shall stay in the
| Vara.
|
| 29 (80). There shall be no humpbacked, none bulged forward
| there; no impotent, no lunatic; no poverty, no lying; no
| meanness, no jealousy; no decayed tooth, no leprous to be
| confined, nor any of the brands wherewith Angra Mainyu stamps
| the bodies of mortals.
|
| 30 (87). In the largest part of the place thou shalt make
| nine streets, six in the middle part, three in the smallest.
| To the streets of the largest part thou shalt bring a
| thousand seeds of men and women; to the streets of the middle
| part, six hundred; to the streets of the smallest part, three
| hundred. _That Vara thou shalt seal up with the golden ring_
| , and thou shalt make a door, and a window self-shining
| within.'
|
| > I don't know that that golden ring represents, maybe the
| sun?
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| The traditional _wake_ is probably rooted in watching the
| "dead" body for a few days to see if it wakes up before burying
| them. There can be myriad things that make someone seem dead
| temporarily, such as consuming improperly prepared fish (I
| think puffer fish?).
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| > the ancients had similar thoughts as "We will not declare her
| dead until she is warm and dead."
|
| I mean, they lived in the aftermath of an ice age...
| sethammons wrote:
| Another one: https://allthatsinteresting.com/jean-hilliard
|
| > Her skin was so frozen that they couldn't pierce it with
| hypodermic needles -- the needles just broke on contact. Her body
| temperature was so low that it didn't register on a thermometer.
| Her face was an ashen-gray color and her eyes didn't respond to
| changes in light.
| petilon wrote:
| In Siberia they do this routinely. In this video [1] doctors
| lower the body temperature to 75 degrees Fahrenheit, which
| basically brings the body including brain to a halt, then perform
| the surgery.
|
| Note: the audio is in Russian but there is text description below
| the video:
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVMX6YKYMrU
| cat_plus_plus wrote:
| She was 0K.
| paulcole wrote:
| > It took much longer--years--for her to be able to move, walk,
| and finally even ski again.
|
| I'll take cold and dead over this, thanks. I've got a chronic
| illness and have a good sense of my limits for what's bearable.
| sterlind wrote:
| I've got a chronic illness too. I use a wheelchair. it's very
| bearable for me. you might be less willing to live with
| limitations than me, though - I was never terribly athletic
| even when I was able-bodied.
| paulcole wrote:
| Yeah, everybody's different. I thought my life was pretty
| pointless pre-illness. Much worse and I'll have had enough.
| ec109685 wrote:
| The wiki article has her working 140 days after the accident:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_B%C3%A5genholm
|
| " Bagenholm returned to work in October 1999.[12] On 7 October
| 1999-140 days after the accident--she returned to the hospital
| in Tromso and met the doctors and nurses that helped save her
| life.[18]"
| webchat wrote:
| pmoriarty wrote:
| _" She's ice cold when I touch her skin, and she looks absolutely
| dead," Gilbert later told CNN. "On the electrocardiogram... there
| is a completely flat line," Gilbert remembered. "Like you could
| have drawn it with a ruler. No signs of life whatsoever."_
|
| It sounds like they were measuring the wrong thing.
| grayclhn wrote:
| This is a little flip. They _obviously_ weren't measuring the
| wrong thing because they kept going and resuscitated her. The
| EKG was mentioned as one datapoint on the state of her physical
| body.
|
| Edit: I'm writing this comment because in almost any real
| situation, some of the standard measurements won't be useful.
| Pulling out one and concluding "EKGs are wrong" (or whatever
| equivalent) is a pretty easy and common way to feel smart in
| the moment and make worse choices overall.
| pmoriarty wrote:
| _" They obviously weren't measuring the wrong thing because
| they kept going and resuscitated her."_
|
| No.
|
| They _disregarded_ the measurements.
|
| The measurements mentioned in the story obviously failed
| them, so they went with their own judgement instead (or maybe
| some other measurements not mentioned in the story.. but I'm
| just going by what's given in the story, not some imagined
| account of what might have happened instead).
| krisoft wrote:
| > No.
|
| No back to you. :)
|
| > The measurements mentioned in the story obviously failed
| them
|
| The measurement didn't "fail" them. It told them the truth,
| that is that she didn't have electrical activity in her
| hearth. If they would have seen a different rhythm they
| would have given her a different treatment. For example if
| they would have seen one of the shockable rhythms they
| would have given her the appropriate shock.
|
| > so they went with their own judgement instead
|
| Instead? From what you say it sounds like there is some
| rule preventing people from continuing efforts if they see
| a flat ECG. That is not true. The medical providers didn't
| use their judgement "instead" of the measurement. They used
| their judgement factoring in all the things they measured,
| known, heard, and sensed. (including but not limited to the
| flat ECG measurement)
| darkerside wrote:
| What would you suggest measuring?
| thih9 wrote:
| Since then there was an accident involving an even lower body
| temperature:
| https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/04/doctors-toddle...
|
| > Two-year-old Adas was found by police unconscious near a creek
| in the village of Raclawice, just north of Krakow, late on Sunday
| in weather of -7C.
|
| > His core body temperature had plummeted to just 12.7C (54F),
| and doctors kept him in an artificial coma until Wednesday,
| fearing brain damage.
|
| > But after being awakened, the boy on Thursday was speaking,
| playing and eating normally in hospital. Medical staff believe he
| might have come through his ordeal almost unscathed, probably
| with pneumonia but with no sign of frostbite.
| nojs wrote:
| > By the time the rescue team showed up with a rope and a pointed
| shovel, hacked a hole in the ice, and pulled her out, she had
| been submerged for about 80 minutes. She had no heartbeat.
|
| Interestingly people like Wim Hof have apparently trained
| themselves to withstand the same exposure for 2+ hours with no
| issues. The article alludes to this too:
|
| > Slightly less creatively, studies have shown that when
| experienced arctic explorers are asked to stick their fingers in
| icy water, they feel less cold than average Joes do--their bodies
| have slowed down their responses, trained by repeated exposure
| into playing the long game.
|
| I wonder what changes in the body with repeated exposure, and why
| we haven't evolved to do it naturally?
| maxerickson wrote:
| It seems he has survived ice for couple hours, that's different
| than very cold water, as the water will transfer heat away a
| lot faster.
| User23 wrote:
| > I wonder what changes in the body with repeated exposure, and
| why we haven't evolved to do it naturally?
|
| I can't speak to the specifics, but generally speaking the body
| will try to maintain homeostasis. A stressor that disrupts
| homeostasis leads to adaptation or illness and death.
| Presumably those adaptations are not metabolically free, so the
| body prefers not to make them in the absence of stress.
| mysql wrote:
| Sounds like a similar medical miracle to I guy I knew at
| University. https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2017/02/19/this-
| queens-...
| phendrenad2 wrote:
| This is so weird. Is it possible that we can bring Walt Disney
| back to life after all?
| widforss wrote:
| I live in Narvik, and I can't understand why they name the place
| of the accident Kjolen. What I can gather from archived news
| articles she was skiing in a very well known place called
| Morkhola, or "the backside".
|
| I have not heard of any Kjolen Mountains, and as part of a local
| SAR team, I think I should've known about it if it existed.
| gliptic wrote:
| They probably mean Kjolen? Kjolen could be an appropriate name
| for a mountain though, shape-wise :).
| widforss wrote:
| That's probably it :) But if they refer to the Kjolen which
| is _the entire Scandinavian mountain range_ , that's terribly
| imprecise.
|
| Kjolen would mean "the skirt", for the anglophones reading.
| areyousure wrote:
| Please forgive me, for I am actually curious about this:
|
| Were you previously aware of the term "Kjolen" to refer to
| the (Northern) Scandinavian mountain range? And if so, when
| you wrote
|
| > I have not heard of any Kjolen Mountains,
|
| were you really distinguishing between Kjolen and Kjolen?
| Are you a native Norwegian speaker?
|
| I understand that o is a "distinct" letter in Norwegian,
| but to my uneducated eyes/ears it sounds similarly baffling
| to a French speaker not recognizing the "Pyrenees" because
| they're used to "Pyrenees".
| widforss wrote:
| I didn't make that connection since the term Kjolen to
| refer to the whole mountain range is rather archaic. If
| it was more common with this specific meaning, I may have
| understood it.
|
| I'm a Swedish native (mutually intelligible with
| Norwegian), and yes, when I read, "o" and o/o are very
| different and distinct letters.
| gliptic wrote:
| I'm Swedish, not Norwegian, but I can understand not
| making the connection between "Kjolen" and "Kjolen"
| because both of those are words and have completely
| different meaning, and as you say 'o' is quite distinct
| from 'o'.
|
| Just to take a random example, if you were to say "Bird
| Peak" instead of "Bard Peak" it wouldn't be immediately
| obvious what you meant.
| hansihe wrote:
| I would probably make the connection if we are talking
| about very commonly used words, or if I knew what to look
| out for. In this case, I am not terribly familiar with
| that mountain range, so I probably wouldn't make the
| connection by myself.
|
| We have 3 different "special" letters in Norwegian, all
| of which have their own "latinifications", so it can
| sometimes be difficult to see when it has been done. (o
| to o, ae to ae/a/e, a to a/aa)
|
| Incidentally, Kjolen and Kjolen are both nouns of their
| own. (kjolen means "the dress" as in what a woman could
| wear. kjolen can mean "the fridge" as in "put something
| in the fridge"/"put something in a cool place")
| gylterud wrote:
| > kjolen can mean "the fridge" as in "put something in
| the fridge"/"put something in a cool place"
|
| I could be wrong, but I would guess "kjolen" would
| translate to the "the keel" in this case? Perhaps
| refering to the shape of the mountain range looking like
| a keel up-side down.
| thebruce87m wrote:
| SAR = Search And Rescue in case anyone else didn't immediately
| click.
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