[HN Gopher] The YouTube Rabbit Hole Is Nuanced
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The YouTube Rabbit Hole Is Nuanced
Author : prostoalex
Score : 30 points
Date : 2022-04-22 16:08 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nytimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nytimes.com)
| midislack wrote:
| When I hear 'nuanced' it usually shuts off my brain.
| akira2501 wrote:
| Is there an established "kittens to terrorist" pipeline? Did I
| miss a news story earlier this week? It seems very brash to
| assume that activity you simply don't approve of is
| instantaneously harmful.
|
| I'm also suspicious of any study that uses YouGov, and in
| particular, derives it's data from a volunteer panel.
|
| This smacks of looking for a conclusion and then building a study
| to find it.
| [deleted]
| Terry_Roll wrote:
| >Is there an established "kittens to terrorist" pipeline?
|
| Yes, its what Eli Pariser described as a Filter Bubble, first
| identified in Google Search results. I wonder if there has been
| some code sharing going on between Google and Youtube, or if
| team members have jumped ship?
|
| https://www.ted.com/talks/eli_pariser_beware_online_filter_b...
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/jan/08/eli-pariser-ac...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filter_bubble
|
| Some youtube holes can be good but considering the untapped
| potential of Youtube for DJ mixes as background music for
| coders, I find the youtube hole incredibly frustrating.
|
| I mean I've only just found this DJ and its pretty decent mix
| and her previous work is quite good as well, but considering
| she is Ukrainian, I wonder if this is Youtube's pro Ukrainian
| political policy in effect?
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYC8KkNIkZk
|
| I found this decent mix
| (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vHRUsP20dQ) only after
| listening to a couple of 145bpm German Underground techno
| mixes.
|
| I mean what were the algorithms thinking?
|
| The only link I can see is its from the Boiler Room in Berlin
| and Berlin is where you can find some decent German underground
| techno, plus the time of day is a factor, ie trying to slow
| down someone's Dopamine stimulation at 4am in the morning?
|
| But if you listen to some of the more established DJ's like
| Boris Brecha, Carl Cox, David Guetta, Adam Beyer or brands like
| Creamfields, Global Underground, Tomorrowland, Resistance,
| Transmission, Hooj Tunes, Essential Mix, you'll get stuck in
| youtube holes left right and centre and the quality tends to
| get worse the longer you listen. I mean their algorithms dont
| know how to curate DJ mixes, just like most people cant take
| people on a journey of aural delights when DJ'ing.
|
| One other thing I have noticed with Youtube is bank holidays in
| the UK, they tend to promote borderline illegal car activities,
| things like cruises where people lose it leaving the cruise or
| speeding videos, more so on August bank holiday and the last
| May bank holiday. I'm left with the impression Youtube is
| trying to incite illegal car activities, so maybe the NY Times
| and the Guardian do have a point!?!
| OrangeMonkey wrote:
| If your idea can win in the marketplace of ideas, then free
| speech is the answer.
|
| If your idea loses in the marketplace of ideas, you ban the
| speech you dislike until your idea wins in the *marketplace of
| ideas.
|
| If any group is busy saying - out loud - that they need to ban
| what you can see and hear, maybe we should start asking some
| critical questions.
| kurthr wrote:
| If by win, you mean paid SEO of propaganda with brigading by
| fake accounts. But wait, you used the word
| free? How is paid propaganda free? The way
| astroturf is grass?
|
| Are corporations canceling me by not sufficiently promoting
| my political agenda on their ad supported site, because my
| content makes people not want to buy anything associated with
| it?
|
| Just asking questions.
| chowells wrote:
| A marketplace of ideas only works if every single idea every
| person has is actively chosen based on analysis of
| alternatives.
|
| Given that applies to about 0% of beliefs for most people,
| I'd say the idea has some flaws.
|
| If you immediately reject that, you're not very open to
| external ideas, are you?
|
| If you don't immediately reject it, you see how a market can
| be subverted to serve purposes that it was never intended to
| or constructed to resist.
|
| Either way, the idea of a marketplace of ideas is paradoxical
| in the extremes. And once you acknowledge the idea needs to
| be softened to avoid self-contradiction, you end up back at
| the question of what constitutes abuse. That's the exact same
| question people are wrestling with now. And because it's
| inherently an expression of a power struggle, you need to be
| aware of whose power you're supporting.
|
| I recommend siding _against_ authoritarians and fascists, but
| that 's just my idea.
| tonguez wrote:
| "A marketplace of ideas only works if every single idea
| every person has is actively chosen based on analysis of
| alternatives."
|
| nah
| freedomben wrote:
| I think your premise is flawed:
|
| > _A marketplace of ideas only works if every single idea
| every person has is actively chosen based on analysis of
| alternatives._
|
| What is required is exposure to alternatives. It's not a
| perfect nor an instantaneous process, but it absolutely
| works. I've changed my position many times based on
| rational argumentation. If they are never exposed to the
| alternatives, the majority of people will just continue
| believing in what they already believe, of which the bulk
| comes from upbringing.
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| The marketplace of ideas can remain irrational longer
| than you can stay solvent.
| atoav wrote:
| Who decides the architectonic layout of that marketplace and
| could it not have some sort of influence on the success or
| failure of said idea?
|
| Or lets ask differently: how could there ever be a neutral
| layout to said market place, which is without influence of
| the powers at play in any given situation?
| pixl97 wrote:
| Paradox of intolerance alarms are going off in my head for
| some reason.
| MereInterest wrote:
| First off, ideas are not a marketplace. Every useful idea has
| some call to action as part of it. That call to action may be
| a call to raise or lower taxes, a call to install bike lanes,
| a call to write more books about race car driving. These
| actions are frequently incompatible, and so they must be
| communally chosen. This is in contrast to a free market,
| where each individual can choose between available options.
|
| Second, even if ideas are treated as a market, movements can
| have disproportionate power compared to their "market share".
| The level of group support required to implement a policy
| depends on the specific policy. If 5% of people support
| defecating in the local lake, and 95% of people support the
| idea of swimming in the lake and using indoor plumbing, the
| result is not a swimmable lake. In the same way, a violent
| movement with very low popular support is unlikely to win any
| elections, but can still make it entirely unsafe for that
| movement's targets.
|
| Third, personal anecdote time. A few years ago after watching
| the "Alt-Right Playbook" [0], a YouTube series about
| recruitment and radicalization tactics used by the alt-right,
| YouTube recommended that I watch Nazi propaganda. I do not
| say that in any exaggeration. The video title had the phrase
| "The Jewish Question", and I was expecting a history on how
| that phrase had been used in racist fearmongering. It was
| instead exactly that same racist fearmongering. Even if I
| were to hold that all speech is permissible without
| repercussion, there is still a world of difference between
| allowing Nazi propaganda to exist, and active promotion of
| propaganda of that same propaganda.
|
| TL;DR: Ideas are not a marketplace, and lack of promotion is
| not the same as silencing.
|
| [0] https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJA_jUddXvY7v0VkYR
| bAN...
| kurthr wrote:
| I just got served this "patriotic" wonder on YouTube kids.
|
| https://youtu.be/NUklrt_4Mio
|
| Check out the translation, if you're into that.
| robbedpeter wrote:
| Z-Nazi nuns and nurses. More or less, just not fixated on
| jews. My empathy for Russians declines daily, it seems - they
| had decades to work things out but seem to have decided that
| klepocratic autarchy was good enough, or was someone else's
| problem. Want to be more like North Korea? Do as Russians do.
|
| Megalomaniacs shouldn't be involved in potential nuclear war.
| The US has proposed structured human-in-the-loop treaties to
| require that nuclear weapons not be automated, but China and
| Russia have both refused. A few bad cosmic bit flips and
| unintended nuclear war is possible. Putin's swan dive into
| Ukraine should underline the need for change. Humanity is
| toast if we're going to play stupid nuclear brinksmanship
| games every couple decades.
| kurthr wrote:
| What's disturbing is that the poster requested it be on
| _YouTube_Kids_, they obliged, and due to that any state-
| sponsored "warning" notation is removed.
| robbedpeter wrote:
| Elsa-gate and other nastiness shuttle have been a big
| wake-up call for YouTube to get their shit together on
| the kids area of the platform.
|
| Nice, wholesome, patriotic Russian propaganda like that
| shouldn't be possible to post. Mandatory human review
| with a checklist and log should be one of many hurdles
| needed to post content for the kids-only content area. It
| should be the best guarded, most highly curated segment,
| but all sorts of inappropriate garbage gets through, and
| sticks around for weeks or months even after being
| reported.
| Dwedit wrote:
| One potential problem with this article is that your LOCATION can
| also determine which videos are suggested to you. So if you're in
| New York City, you're not going to see the same suggestions as
| someone in Arkansas.
| mt_ wrote:
| https://archive.ph/84gnw
| [deleted]
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| This feels like a big straw man.
|
| My YouTube journey didn't start with watching 90 minute videos of
| some guy solving a soduku with no given digits and a knight move
| constraint.
|
| I got there step by step.
| nojito wrote:
| Very interesting study if anyone's curious.
|
| https://cpb-us-e1.wpmucdn.com/sites.dartmouth.edu/dist/5/229...
| tomatowurst wrote:
| I increasingly distrust nytimes after Ryan Breslow outed them.
|
| https://twitter.com/theryanking/status/1514664887045091328
|
| How can you trust a media outlet with conflict of interests? This
| naturally makes me question it's journalists now too.
|
| One might associate NY Times with the city New York, the bastion
| of a free speech and democractic superpower. But after the facts,
| how can you not read NY times article without raising questions?
| willnonya wrote:
| New Yorkis a bastion of free speech and democratic? What decade
| is this comment from?
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| NYT is like the Democratic party of newspapers. They're vaguely
| respectable centrists in a slightly Fascist nation.
|
| The scary part is how many of the American population think
| both of them are terrifying bastions of Communist Woke
| Terrorism, in striking contrast to objective reality.
| AlexandrB wrote:
| It used to be normal in the news paper industry to have a hard
| dividing line between the "news" and "advertising" departments
| for this very reason. There was always a conflict of interest
| possible when newspapers reported on the companies placing ads
| with them. I'm not sure how true this is any more.
| yackback wrote:
| Another criticism of NYTs coverage about something, this time
| San Francisco:
| https://twitter.com/equalityAlec/status/1494090713482633217
| [deleted]
| tonguez wrote:
| "One might associate NY Times with the city New York, the
| bastion of a free speech and democractic superpower."
|
| if you say all lives matter in nyc you will be beaten to a
| bloody pulp
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(page generated 2022-04-24 23:02 UTC)