[HN Gopher] Pupils Reveal 'Aphantasia' - The Absence of Visual I...
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       Pupils Reveal 'Aphantasia' - The Absence of Visual Imagination
        
       Author : sethrin
       Score  : 62 points
       Date   : 2022-04-22 13:55 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (neurosciencenews.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (neurosciencenews.com)
        
       | karmakaze wrote:
       | I suspect that I would classify as one who has aphantasia, as I
       | can't picture images at will.
       | 
       | This isn't to say I have no capability of generating images as in
       | my dreams, or in rare moments lucid dreaming. I'm also very
       | 'visual' in thinking processes, not exactly in images but in
       | relationships between parts. After thinking about a particular
       | problem for a while I sometimes have a flash insight of a
       | structure/shape that can solve it. The clearest example was a
       | puzzle of how to balance 20 framing nails on the head of one
       | nailed upright. When I woke up the next morning I had imagined
       | the solution though not necessary rendering an image of it.
       | [Postpone cleartext spoiler replies so folks get a chance to
       | sleep on it.] In ML terms it could be like working in feature-
       | space rather than image-space.
        
         | kmonsen wrote:
         | I can't picture images at all, and don't really dream at all
         | either. Wonder if there are any implications, I went through
         | most of my life thinking this is normal.
        
           | mikelevins wrote:
           | It's unlikely that you don't dream, but not at all unlikely
           | that you dream but don't remember it.
        
             | kmonsen wrote:
             | That is probably true, but since I can't remember them I
             | don't know if they are visual or not.
        
         | gavinray wrote:
         | I am the same way, I explain it as _" I think in concepts"_
         | 
         | Relationships is a word to explain it that I hadn't thought of
         | before. I think a lot of engineers are probably similar.
         | 
         | When working on a large codebase or trying to plan out
         | something like this -- you can't really go off of visual
         | imagery. There's no "picture" of all the ways that various
         | things in a codebase will interact, design decisions, etc.
         | 
         | A lot of engineering/software stuff is abstract.
         | 
         | Not sure if others are the sameway, but the downside to this is
         | that I have nearly zero spatial-imagery skills. You know the
         | tests where they show you a 3D shape, and ask you which
         | possible rotation is still the same shape? Or the one where
         | they ask you to show what shapes would look like, if folded up
         | from laid out pieces of paper? My mind just goes blank:
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_rotation
         | 
         | I also have essentially no geo-spatial awareness. I constantly
         | get lost and have no sense of cardinal directions.
         | 
         | Anyone else out there have a brain like this?
        
           | harel wrote:
           | That's how I explain it. I'm not sure it's clear to people
           | but I have no other word to describe it.
        
           | harel wrote:
           | I am exactly like you describe 100% to the dot. I can get
           | lost on a straight road with a gps at hand.
        
           | hn_go_brrrrr wrote:
           | "thinking in concepts" is exactly how I describe it, but mine
           | is a little different. I still don't visualize anything, but
           | I have a fantastic sense of direction. I can wander through a
           | maze of back alleyways intuitively and end up very close to
           | where I want to be. Similarly, I can fold and unfold shapes
           | in my head, but not visually. If I consider the problem, I
           | become aware of the answer.
        
           | Twisol wrote:
           | > When working on a large codebase or trying to plan out
           | something like this -- you can't really go off of visual
           | imagery. There's no "picture" of all the ways that various
           | things in a codebase will interact, design decisions, etc.
           | 
           | Oddly, while I totally get the emphasis on "relationships", I
           | _definitely_ orient those relationships spatially. I used to
           | play a text-only game (a MUD) where the world was laid out as
           | a graph of rooms; the graph was only approximately metric. I
           | initially learned to navigate by drawing my own (roughly
           | Cartesian) maps as ASCII art, giving me a kind of global
           | perspective in my mind 's eye, but over time I "learned" the
           | topological structure directly and relied on a less graphical
           | (but no less spatial) local perspective.
           | 
           | I tend to "navigate" codebases in much the same way.
           | Different parts of the codebase cluster more or less closely,
           | and I perceive information flows in essentially the same way
           | that I perceived paths through the MUD's world. I learn a
           | codebase in much the same way, although it's much more local
           | from the beginning (codebases tend to be even less Cartesian
           | than the MUD's world is).
        
           | harel wrote:
           | Do you have an internal voice/monologue, or lack one? This is
           | another thing I recently found out I don't have and I'm
           | trying to see if the two are related.
           | 
           | (I'm still a bit "excited" from your original comment. I
           | could have written it word for word.)
        
             | gavinray wrote:
             | I don't have an internal voice/monologue either, FWIW
             | 
             | What about you?
             | 
             | I can if I consciously put effort towards it, but when
             | thinking or reading I don't notice any sort of voice/sound
        
               | harel wrote:
               | I got no visuals and no voice. Its dark and quiet on my
               | head. I found out not all people are like that in my
               | early 40s and to be honest felt like I missed out. I do
               | dream visually, but rarely able to recall dreams, and I
               | did experience visuals on psychedelics in my 20s.
               | 
               | The one plus of seeing in concepts is that I can hold
               | complex software systems in my head pretty easily and
               | code always clicked with me very naturally. But I still
               | am a bit jealous of those with special fx vision
        
           | prometheus76 wrote:
           | That's very interesting because I also have aphantasia, but I
           | can flip objects and know which answer is correct. I don't
           | know how to explain it, but I can do it. I also have no
           | problem with cardinal directions, and I have no problems with
           | right/left (although my ability to distinguish right/left was
           | a later development than my peers).
        
         | davidhunter wrote:
         | I'm with you. Do you believe it gives you an edge on certain
         | types of tasks?
        
           | aendruk wrote:
           | I feel like I have an advantage on tasks that are too complex
           | to process all at once and must be decomposed and navigated
           | systematically, because I'm well practiced at approaching
           | everything that way, by necessity.
        
       | cartoonfoxes wrote:
       | I suspect this has something to do with which parts of your brain
       | are wired into your short-term memory, and the ratio of
       | connections to each. My conscious visual imagination can produce
       | hallucinatory "front-buffer" effects - like a heads-up display in
       | my central field of vision. I also have a severe deficit when it
       | comes to sensing my emotional state or stress levels.
       | 
       | Short-term memory "size" seems fairly consistent between people.
       | It wouldn't surprise me if those with aphantasia have a
       | concomitant awareness of some other mental process that isn't
       | normally consciously accessible. Appealing to evolutionary
       | biology - since aphantasia appears to be a persistent trait in
       | humans which would seem to have obvious costs, it's logical to
       | assume there are benefits somewhere to make up the balance.
        
       | npunt wrote:
       | I wonder if study results would be different for aphantasics on
       | psychedelics. I imagine aphantasia is like most other human
       | differences and exists on a spectrum, so perhaps a mild
       | psychedelic like THC may affect results.
        
         | srcreigh wrote:
         | Aphantastic here. I get cool star patterns after drinking booze
         | and laying down with my eyes closed. Like fast changing
         | animation of different aspects of the shape changing-size,
         | color, number of points, length of points, sometimes other
         | types of shapes. Lasts only 20 seconds or so when I first lie
         | down after 4+ drinks sometimes.
         | 
         | Had some interesting visual imagination one time while
         | meditating on LSD. Wasn't much in control of what I saw, but it
         | was interesting to imagine colorful stuff for the first time
         | ever.
         | 
         | Normal LSD trip isn't very imaginative (I don't do psychedelics
         | for years mind you.) mostly visual with my eyes. Same with
         | shrooms.
         | 
         | Marijuana for me never really created visual imagination (used
         | to smoke a lot years ago).
        
       | swayvil wrote:
       | My "visual imagination" becomes much more intense when I practice
       | Vipassana meditation. Regularly so.
       | 
       | That would suggest that it depends on your state of
       | consciousness.
       | 
       | And state of consciousness may be more or less constant for any
       | given person. But it can be altered.
        
       | mescaline wrote:
       | One may wonder why Pearson remains hellbent on finding Aphants.
       | 
       | Evolution is a bitch.
        
       | cercatrova wrote:
       | To those asking whether people can normally "see" in their
       | "mind's eye" as if one sees in reality, the answer is yes.
       | 
       | We can see the world in our mind and conjure whatever we want,
       | spatially manipulate objects (rotation, translation, scaling) and
       | imagine their interactions with other objects (a ball hitting
       | another in mid air and how it'd bounce off). It's like having a
       | VR environment inside your own mind that you can use at any time
       | and take wherever you want.
       | 
       | I'm not sure about other people, but I can also conjure smells,
       | sounds and tastes as clearly as if I'd experienced them in
       | reality. This might however be more than what most people can do,
       | I suspect I'm on the hyperphantasia part of the spectrum.
        
         | prometheus76 wrote:
         | I have aphantasia, but I can flip objects around and pass those
         | questions on tests where you have to flip an object "in your
         | head". I don't know how I pass those questions, but I can. It's
         | almost an intuitive sense of which one is right.
        
       | mjfl wrote:
       | Aphants - I'm wondering how much you enjoy reading fiction? Seems
       | like a visual imagination would help you enjoy it a bit more. I
       | have seen a youtuber describe her aphantasia and how she doesn't
       | enjoy reading, perhaps for this reason.
        
         | sdefresne wrote:
         | I enjoy reading a lots, but I prefer dialogs over long
         | descriptions. I don't visualize how the characters / places can
         | looks from descriptions. Unless the writing is really clear, I
         | may struggle if the layout of the scene is important (say a
         | crime scene with a description of the room, its exits, ...).
         | 
         | I sometimes skip description of the characters physique because
         | I know that I won't remember it a few page later, and it
         | usually do not matter in the story anyway (and if it matters,
         | it is usually reminded to the reader because aphantasia is not
         | the only reason a reader may not remember how a character is
         | dressed or looks like).
        
         | hemreldop wrote:
        
         | saberdancer wrote:
         | I enjoy reading a lot. However I do not really have complicated
         | imagery in my mind when I do.
         | 
         | Since learning of aphantasia I've had several moments when I am
         | at the edge of falling asleep where I can see clear visual
         | images. I do not have control over the images and they usually
         | relate to something that happened during the day. It's
         | fascinating to see as I usually can't visualize almost anything
         | - the way I would describe it is that I can "talk" about what I
         | see in my mind, kind of like I have a text-based game in my
         | mind and when I am visualizing, I am describing what I want to
         | see, not what I am seeing. There are no details that I notice
         | without consciously bringing in.
        
         | jiggawatts wrote:
         | I have read literally thousands of science fiction and fantasy
         | books. Something I enjoy is watching the film or TV show
         | versions of a book I had read before -- I get to enjoy the same
         | story twice in two different ways. I've heard many people
         | complain about such adaptations because it didn't match what
         | they were visualising while reading the novel. For me this is
         | not a problem so I get more enjoyment out of adaptations.
         | 
         | Even while reading, for me the joy is not about picturing any
         | specific image or scene. It's about the feeling of immersion in
         | a world. I love stories where I can a idea of what living in
         | that context would feel like. This is an abstract notion
         | without any specific visualisation.
         | 
         | Not everyone can do this, and I think they're missing out. I
         | can "step into" the shoes of someone and look at the world
         | through their eyes, see their perspective, and feel what they
         | feel. My partner can't, for example. She just stares blankly at
         | the news about the war in Ukraine. It means nothing to her past
         | the visuals. Burnt out cars, damaged buildings, etc...
         | 
         | I instead "see" the terror, the sleepless nights, the unmaking
         | of everything you have built and the destruction of your
         | children's future. I imagine hiding in a dark tunnel clutching
         | a heavy gun cold from the winter air, listening to your own
         | breathing -- too loud -- and hoping you'll hear the Russians'
         | footsteps before they hear you. But there's too many of them,
         | and there's just you and this antique weapon defending you
         | neighbours.
        
         | snorremd wrote:
         | I can find some enjoyment in books that do not overly rely on
         | visual imagery. I quite enjoyed the Martian because it focused
         | so much on the character's thoughts and the state of the
         | character's mind. I enjoyed the first three the Expanse books
         | because of the political world building and character
         | development. Though watching the TV adaptation added a new
         | layer to the story as it could fill out the visual gaps, so to
         | speak, of my reading experience.
         | 
         | But I find myself being drawn in to movies and TV shows as they
         | can render entirely new visual worlds that are unlike anything
         | I can experience on my own. I guess this is also why I don't
         | mind movie and TV adaptations so much.
        
         | wallacoloo wrote:
         | i'm sure perception is cool when reading, but arguably it's
         | cool mostly because the imagery leads you to _feel_ certain
         | ways? when an author describes a moonlit scene with the
         | protagonist alone at the edge of a lake watching the patterns
         | of ripples on the water... that instills some meaningful
         | emotion in me. perhaps a feeling of solitude, or that of a calm
         | evening where i feel in-touch with the world. so... to what
         | extent does limited imagery decrease the emotional potency of a
         | scene?
         | 
         | a few people have told me "yes, i still feel something when i
         | read that scene. it's more that i can't imagine any of the
         | character's faces". i haven't met anyone who says they feel
         | literally no emotions when reading any scene, but that doesn't
         | mean they don't exist, nor does it mean the emotional response
         | isn't attenuated.
        
         | khazhoux wrote:
         | I finally realized that I probably experience fiction at a much
         | shittier quality than other people, and have basically given up
         | on it. I mean, most fiction is lame IMHO anyway, but I get
         | nothing out of visual descriptions. The characters play out
         | their scenes basically in voids, or in the barest of sets (a
         | room, a house, the bottom of a mountain).
        
         | srcreigh wrote:
         | Not much for exactly this reason.
         | 
         | Some fiction is more poetic and dialogue-y or emotional so it's
         | fine. I loved Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance.
         | 
         | I never understood the descriptions of environment or anything.
         | I'm just reading the words aloud to myself in my head and not
         | seeing it so it's kinda a waste.
        
         | fortysixdegrees wrote:
         | The only fiction I get any pleasure from is comedy.
        
         | orinatic wrote:
         | I have aphantasia.
         | 
         | I love reading fiction, but books that rely on extensive visual
         | imagery tend to fall flat for me (most recently The Night
         | Circus, but there have been others).
        
       | colordrops wrote:
       | As a regular meditator I'm curious if those with aphantasia are
       | generally more present and in the current moment than those
       | without it. A typical meditation practice involves working with
       | mind wandering, and I'm guessing that visualization makes it
       | easier to get lost in thought.
        
         | srcreigh wrote:
         | Nope. I still have trains of thought. It's just auditory,
         | conceptual, emotional etc not visual.
         | 
         | I do get distracted with thoughts (even ignoring other people
         | sometimes) most likely same as you or anyone.
        
       | dang wrote:
       | Related:
       | 
       |  _Aphantasia (and how not to do math in your head)_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30573004 - March 2022 (2
       | comments)
       | 
       |  _Aphantasia_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29365277 -
       | Nov 2021 (276 comments)
       | 
       |  _Not spooked by Halloween ghost stories? You may have
       | aphantasia_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29049356 - Oct
       | 2021 (10 comments)
       | 
       |  _Picture This? Some Just Can't (2015)_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28997320 - Oct 2021 (1
       | comment)
       | 
       |  _Aphantasia: How It Feels to Be Blind in Your Mind (2016)_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27588905 - June 2021 (1
       | comment)
       | 
       |  _Seeing things a different way; simple test for aphantasia_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24532946 - Sept 2020 (1
       | comment)
       | 
       |  _Picture This? Some Just Can't (2015)_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22800815 - April 2020 (103
       | comments)
       | 
       |  _Aphantasia_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20267445 -
       | June 2019 (72 comments)
       | 
       |  _Aphantasia: 'My mind's eye is blind'_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19618927 - April 2019 (422
       | comments)
       | 
       |  _Aphantasia: Ex-Pixar chief Ed Catmull says 'my mind's eye is
       | blind'_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19612122 - April
       | 2019 (2 comments)
       | 
       |  _The blind mind: No sensory visual imagery in aphantasia_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18799550 - Jan 2019 (100
       | comments)
       | 
       |  _What it's like to be unable to visualize anything_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11730505 - May 2016 (11
       | comments)
       | 
       |  _Aphantasia: How It Feels to Be Blind in Your Mind_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11554894 - April 2016 (202
       | comments)
       | 
       |  _Aphantasia: A life without mental images_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10148792 - Aug 2015 (73
       | comments)
       | 
       |  _Aphantasia: A Life Without Mental Images_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10121678 - Aug 2015 (2
       | comments)
        
         | cercatrova wrote:
         | I've read about and seen articles submitted on aphantasia more
         | on HN than anywhere else on the internet. I wonder if it's just
         | more prevalent among the HN population than others.
        
           | mkoubaa wrote:
           | Anecdotally I've only ever heard it discussed in the company
           | of software developers
        
           | version_five wrote:
           | I've heard of it and still have no idea if I have it or not,
           | if what I picture (basically nothing, but I'd still be able
           | to remember the layout of a room for example) is the same as
           | what most people do, but we describe it differently, if there
           | is some condition where one can picture even less than me, if
           | people can actually close their eyes and "see" a scene as if
           | their eyes are open (this I find dubious), etc.
           | 
           | I think the confusing nd somewhat ambiguous description of
           | aphantasia, and the highly literal nature of many HN folks
           | makes it more common for people to either think they may have
           | it, or so question how others see stuff, so are more curious
           | about it.
        
             | wallacoloo wrote:
             | can you imagine the faces of your loved one's? like, if one
             | of them went missing, would you be able to help the
             | investigators draw up a sketch of their face?
             | 
             | as far as i can tell, most people say "yes". for me, when i
             | imagine my dad's face, i get a brief flash of a grin, where
             | the wrinkles are (but certainly not how many, or in any
             | definition), and the rough cut of his hair. there's no eye
             | color in the imagery, for example. stronger than any visual
             | experience when i imagine his face is something of an
             | emotional/empathetic experience -- what it feels like to be
             | in his presence.
             | 
             | from what i gather, for people like me (and maybe you) who
             | experience "some" visual imagery but not "lots", it's just
             | a skill like any other and there are exercises you can do
             | if you care enough about it to strengthen it.
        
             | kmonsen wrote:
             | I'm like you, I feel I have it but it is so hard to
             | communicate what happens in the brain. Talking to my wife I
             | think people can really see images when they close their
             | eyes. For me it is all black.
             | 
             | I can still remember things like layout of a room,
             | complicated directions etc, but it comes with no visual
             | imagery. I also like to close my eyes when I am trying to
             | think what some complicated code is doing, still nothing
             | visual though.
        
       | codesuki wrote:
       | Just my personal anecdote, but like 2 years ago I saw this
       | picture on Twitter 'how people imagine an apple'. It was the
       | first time I realized that people really see something when they
       | imagine it. As many said in the comments already for me it's more
       | like thinking in concepts or relations. I've started to ask all
       | my friends how they imagine things and the overwhelming majority
       | says they clearly see an apple in front of them, etc. For me it
       | was quite valuable to know this, because if someone tells me to
       | draw a cow or something, I can't. Now I know that other people
       | actually see a cow in their mind and copy it. At least that's how
       | some people told it to me. There is this story about the artist
       | that drew Disney's Ariel. Since he didn't see it he just sketched
       | and erased until it looked good to him.
       | 
       | Relatedly, it seems this extends not only to visualizing, but
       | also to sounds, taste and smell. I can hear a song a 100 times
       | and still not be able to hear it in my head, although there are
       | rare times where the melody comes to me, but it's lossy and not
       | repeatable.
       | 
       | Similarly a friend told me 'I can smell that food already, it
       | makes me hungry' and he was really serious about being able to
       | imagine the smell.
       | 
       | I don't know if this has any benefits/drawbacks. For me it has at
       | least the drawback that I cannot imagine my family which
       | sometimes weirds me out.
        
       | efferifick wrote:
       | This reminds me a little of the Voight-Kampff test.
        
         | tmitchel2 wrote:
         | That was my first thought.
        
           | tmitchel2 wrote:
           | My second thought is that this whole thing could be down to a
           | two way road between the neo cortex and the visual cortex.
           | Its all the rage in machine learning / neural net to paint
           | images using just concepts / words so perhaps some of us can
           | so the same thing. Personally I think mine is less a two way
           | road and more a one way cul-de-sac.
        
       | CyborgCabbage wrote:
       | Hoping they do a larger study. The methodology is a bit weird
       | though; they change the colour of the screen right when they tell
       | people to imagine stuff. Surely that would only make the effect
       | of imagining harder to pick out? The aphantasia and control
       | graphs also look very similar to my eye, and they didn't show
       | them side by side or anything (though I might have missed it as I
       | only skimmed).
        
       | alfiedotwtf wrote:
       | Who else here learned today from this link that they too have
       | Aphantasia
        
       | codenesium wrote:
       | The way I have described it is in the movie The Dark Knight they
       | build the machine that uses phones to build something like sonar
       | to see in environments. The way that is depicted in the movie is
       | how I visualize things. I can navigate rooms or areas but I only
       | see this vague representation of objects similar to how it's
       | depicted in the movie. I have no problem with abstract concepts
       | as a software engineer. But I can't visualize a face for example.
       | It's a vague representation in my mind.
        
         | khazhoux wrote:
         | Hello, fellow aphantasic.
         | 
         | Can you "see" motion? I can. I can easily visualize a ballerina
         | doing a pirouette and a plie and gracefully moving her arms...
         | but I'm seeing actual imagery. It's more like I see the
         | gradient of an image. Frankly, it's like "seeing" pure motion
         | itself, devoid of the image itself of the thing moving. This
         | was quite a surprising realization when I first noticed this
         | ability. I think, by the way, for dancers and sports and others
         | involved in motion activities, this ability is probably natural
         | for them and they don't think about it.
        
           | supertofu wrote:
           | Do people with aphantasia daydream? How does it work? What
           | about drawing?
           | 
           | When I was a kid I would spend hours constructing elaborate
           | daydream worlds and plot lines. They were so vivid that I
           | could have drawn them if asked.
        
             | srcreigh wrote:
             | Hello. For me it's monologue (inner dialogue) or
             | vague/shadowy fleeting images. Or singing songs to myself.
             | I can rarely keep an image in mind for more than a moment,
             | and it's always mostly colorless, not detailed.
        
         | doliveira wrote:
         | Yes! I described it once like the sense from Daredevil or Toph
         | from Avatar.
         | 
         | I can kind of feel shapes and directions in my mind. When it
         | comes to colours, though, I have to "paint" "manually" over
         | this mental sonar image.
        
         | codenesium wrote:
         | Also, my memory is terrible. Poor recall from my childhood and
         | even today. However, I'm good at improvising as an engineer and
         | also as a musician.
        
           | grenoire wrote:
           | I think of two different types of minds in this case,
           | 'functional' and 'stateful.' Functional (like functional
           | programming) minds do not use recall much, but instead build
           | tools to react to situations. Stateful (with reactions in
           | storage already) minds are good at recall and can react to
           | known scenarios with greater precision.
           | 
           | I feel like you describe a functional one.
        
             | bsedlm wrote:
             | this is a really cool "dichotomy".
             | 
             | I was just discussing this in terms of "sages" which know
             | things, they recall and store "stateful data"
             | 
             | and "seers" (like in the verb to see); them who don't know
             | things but perceive them and observe them.
        
             | aendruk wrote:
             | I've had this thought as well, though always regarded the
             | "functional" skills to be more of a coping mechanism for
             | the lack of high-throughput state. It's not that I'm
             | naturally good at systematic thinking, but that I've been
             | forced to be, and I envy the person who can operate
             | wholistically.
        
       | xvector wrote:
       | Would aphants be better served with an academic pipeline that
       | minimizes reliance on visualizing, especially when it comes to
       | classes like geometry or trignometry?
       | 
       | Perhaps a mechanism like this could identify aphantasia in early
       | childhood and use this to provide a more optimized academic
       | pipeline.
        
         | hnbad wrote:
         | I don't think those are good examples. I'm almost certain I
         | have aphantasia but I think spatially. I don't "see" things
         | around me in my "mind's eye", it's more like how you're aware
         | of a nearby hot stove because you feel its heat, or an
         | electrical device that gives off a low hum.
         | 
         | When programming, I have the code "mapped out" around me but
         | likewise not optically but more "intuitively". I might be able
         | to tell you in which direction a given piece of logic exists
         | relative to me but it's more like how you can gauge what
         | direction a sound comes from than having an image in my head
         | that would allow me to tell you a specific place or distance.
         | Note that I use sound to describe this but I don't have
         | particularly exceptional hearing as far as I'm aware (e.g. no
         | musical skills whatsoever).
         | 
         | I suppose I should also add that I don't have an "inner
         | monologue". In fact I always thought references to the "voice
         | in your head" were entirely metaphorical. This often makes it
         | hard for me to explain my thoughts as I first need to try to
         | find the right words to put them in language.
        
         | doliveira wrote:
         | I don't think aphants have problems with these classes, at
         | least not from what I read. I think I'd qualify as aphant, but
         | I had no problems at all in Engineering or Physics (at least,
         | not coming from aphantasia)
        
           | wallacoloo wrote:
           | yeah but classes like geometry? i remember our section on
           | conical slices. like, cool, you can make an ellipse by
           | intersecting a plane with a cone, but (for someone with
           | limited mental imagery: ) isn't that just a really tortured
           | way to go about the task?
        
             | doliveira wrote:
             | I can't see it as if it were a hologram in front of me, but
             | I never had trouble conceptualizing. It's like I feel the
             | shape as a sonar sense
        
         | khazhoux wrote:
         | Aphantasic here. Math concepts are not difficult to visualize,
         | because they exist at the edge of abstraction.
        
         | mkoubaa wrote:
         | It's not an issue at least for me, the only problem I've had as
         | an aphant is descriptive writing of scenery.
        
         | srcreigh wrote:
         | Triangles are super easy to draw (ie see) and the math is
         | usually very simple. If there's an associated formula, working
         | with formula is also very possible without visual skills.
         | 
         | Trickier problems involving several shapes like a puzzle might
         | be harder, though that's not usually curriculum.
        
       | FPGAhacker wrote:
       | Eh, I'm not so sure about what they believe the pupillary
       | response was a proxy for.
       | 
       | Your eyes dilate when you concentrate.
       | 
       | Stare at your eyes in the mirror and start doing simple
       | arithmetic in your head. Adding numbers, multiplication of multi
       | digit numbers. Your eyes will dilate noticeably.
        
         | yes_man wrote:
         | Anecdotally I just tried recording a video of my eyes and
         | started doing calculations in my head, but no dilation in my
         | eyes when watching the recording. Could be my concentration
         | just sucks.
        
           | FPGAhacker wrote:
           | Or it the calculations were easy for you.
        
         | lalopalota wrote:
         | Cool. Just like they mentioned in the article!
        
         | Twisol wrote:
         | This is discussed in the article, where they used this fact to
         | affirm that aphantastic individuals are indeed attempting to
         | visualize (and failing), vs. simply not attempting. Moreover,
         | they explain that in those who can visualize, pupils both
         | dilated _and_ contracted appropriate to the visualization.
        
           | FPGAhacker wrote:
           | Oh, thanks. I guess I judged too quickly.
        
       | gamerDude wrote:
       | I have this for hearing. And after I realized it, I asked a lot
       | of friends about their memories and experienced and found people
       | who like me also have trouble imagining one of the senses. From
       | remembering taste, they never had cravings and ate super healthy,
       | lucky, to not be able to recreate visuals, touch and me missing
       | auditory imagination.
        
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