[HN Gopher] Ask HN: What's a good laptop for software developmen...
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Ask HN: What's a good laptop for software development at around
$2k?
Hi HN! I am looking to buy a laptop for software development in
the 0 to $2000 (USD) range. What I am looking for: 1. Durability:
battery life is important to me as well as general longevity of the
hardware i.e. I would like it to last a long time. 2. Linux
support: I use Linux as my OS of choice and I have _no_ intention
of using Windows /MacOS 3. Optimized for intensive computing
usage. Other things of note: I looked into the Framework laptops
and so far it looks like they are still a bit beta. However, I
_am_ curious about users ' experiences with: * the KDE Slimbook
15: https://slimbook.es/en/store/slimbook-kde/kde-
slimbook-15-comprar * the Purism Librem 14:
https://puri.sm/products/librem-14/ * Kubuntu Focus:
https://kfocus.org/order/order-m2.html * the StarBook 14-inch -
Star Labs(r): https://starlabs.systems/pages/starbook Also tips
about maintaining battery life would be appreciated. I've read too
much conflicting advice about that lately :) Thanks.
Author : kellogs_aran
Score : 310 points
Date : 2022-04-20 09:03 UTC (13 hours ago)
| jraph wrote:
| I'm happy with both my second hand HP Elitebook 840 G6 and the
| ThinkPad carbon X1 Gen 9 I have for work.
|
| I think I like the HP one slightly better: function keys can be
| set to trigger either F1-F12 or to the actions drawn on them
| without the Fn key (and the Fn key swaps this). If set to the
| actions by default, F1-F12 are still automatically used when
| pressing a modifier key, and no action is on F2, which means I
| almost never need to use the Fn key for those and I can
| intuitively use alt+F4. That's not the case on the ThinkPad. It
| has a proper menu key (on the Thinkpad, they decided to replace
| it to screen capture, which is on FN+Right Caps on the HP). I
| like the metal feeling of the case and the feeling of the
| keyboard (but the ThinkPad is good on these areas too). Both have
| a touchscreen, and there are visible, diagonal lines on the
| Thinkpad's screen. Which is not very problematic, but better
| without. The HP has an Ethernet port, too. I think Linux works
| slightly better on the HP too: the sound automatically switches
| to the headphone when plugged, and switches back to the internal
| speakers when unplugged, on the same distro (openSUSE
| Tumbleweed). Though that might be some settings issue. S3 sleep
| works flawlessly on the HP. On the ThinkPad, it is not supported
| and indeed it does not work well. They decided to switch to
| whatever Windows decided to do with suspend, which does not
| really turns off components but put them in low power mode, which
| is a mess.
|
| The ThinkPad is lighter, probably has a better sound from the
| internal speakers (though the HP's sound is correct too). The
| trackpoint on the ThinkPad is way more useful, you can scroll
| with it by holding the touchpad's upper middle button which is
| not there on the HP.
|
| Both have a long battery life. I can recommend both.
|
| I've not tried the KDE Slimbook 15, but it is a more expensive
| rebranded version of another model if I remember correctly.
| GordonS wrote:
| Do you have any thermal and/or noise problems with the HP?
|
| I've had several HPs over the years, including ZBooks, and
| every single one got very hot and blasts the fans all the
| feckin time :/
|
| They were all company machines, but it's put me off ever buying
| one myself.
| kopos wrote:
| Interestingly the heat problem for my zbook got solved by
| reapplying thermal paste just today.
| jraph wrote:
| No. Actually that was a main requirement for me. I hate
| noises. The computer is completely silent except when doing
| heavy computation or maybe long video calls in the browser
| (and then it's not that bad, though I would not notice that
| much because my headset blocks a lot of noises), and only if
| KDE's power setting is not set to power saving (though some
| things can feel a bit sluggish then). And the computer keeps
| cool.
|
| The 840 G3 was similar in this respect (that's how I
| discovered the Elitebook, the lab had an agreement with HP at
| the time), except I had to turn off the secondary HDD I chose
| to take when tweaking the configuration with hdparm -Y.
|
| Though the ZBook seems more focused on performance than the
| Elitebook, so maybe the Elitebook will not cut it if you
| expect similar performance.
|
| The ThinkPad actually spins its fans more easily than the HP
| I think, but it is also more powerful. The HP's noise when
| the fan do spin is also less annoying than the ThinkPad, it's
| a soft blow.
| jmsa wrote:
| After a ton of research I picked up a Dell XPS 15 (9510) around
| the holidays for roughly 1600 USD and switched from OSX to
| Manjaro and I'm in love. 11th gen 11900H processor. I started
| with the super high def display but returned it for the FHD
| display. The resolution of the FHD is more than sufficient (it's
| actually GREAT), the battery life is better, and it's matte
| display is much easier on my eyes. Things I love - 16GB of RAM
| (that is upgradable, and will be upgraded), two SSD slots (both
| occupied). I set it up to hibernate since s3 sleep is gone. I
| open/close my lid many, many times per day, and it comes back
| quickly enough for me (probably ~5s). And I appreciate that it's
| totally powered off that way when the lid is closed. The only
| hardware issue I'm aware of is the two extra subwoofer speakers
| don't yet work in Linux, and they sound really good in Windows (I
| kept a dual boot, but I very, very rarely use it). But the
| speakers still sound decent w/o the subs running, much much
| better than my wife's Ideapad. I don't know if the fingerprint
| scanner is operational and don't care about that, but everything
| else works well. I do lots of Zoom calls, camera is fine, etc,
| etc. I code on it all day almost every day, and the keyboard is a
| high point. I'm a trackpad user, and Linux trackpad is subpar,
| but after a ton of tweaking I'm happy and functional.
| camgunz wrote:
| I ended up buying an MBP 14" because of the apps, but I very very
| nearly bought a ThinkPad P14s G2 [0]. It's fast, cheap (wait for
| a deal) has good battery life (for a non MacBook Air), has a
| great, bright, matte 4k screen, and an _Ethernet port_. If I
| could afford to be Linux only like I have been in the past I
| would 've definitely gone this route.
|
| [0]: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-P14s-G2-AMD-
| la...
| cowlby wrote:
| I picked up a Dell Inspiron 7000 17" and liked these details: -
| Large 17" screen with slim design similar in size to many 15". -
| 2560 x 1600 resolution. 4K is too small, 1920p not enough pixels.
| - Dedicated Nvidia graphics. - Effective keyboard for coding. -
| Lower cost than XPS yet seemed more full featured.
|
| Battery life is somewhat lower due to the size and higher
| performance components. But seemed like a good trade-off in the
| end for the better coding experience.
| asciimov wrote:
| Do you actually need a laptop as your main development machine?
|
| A few years back, I switched off of using a laptop for my main
| machine. This allows me to spend my money on hardware with more
| cores, more ram, better gpu, better linux support, bigger
| screens, and upgrade paths. $2000 will buy you a lot of desktop
| computer.
|
| Further, if you don't spend all of your $2k on fancy cases and
| overpriced gpus, you will have enough money leftover for a cheap
| but decent laptop. This laptop can then remote in to your
| workstation anytime you actually need the high end computing
| power.
| kellogs_aran wrote:
| Yeah I considered this too but it's not very child friendly. I
| live with family and I try to optimize for mobility. Maybe one
| day :)
| rbanffy wrote:
| Have you thought about a 16G M1 Mac? They are in that range and
| are incredibly well built. And MacOS is a fine BSD.
| yellow_lead wrote:
| > I have no intention of using Windows/MacOS
| rbanffy wrote:
| Got to that part after posting this. I too like Gnome better,
| but I don't like it better enough not to be tempted.
| Darmody wrote:
| Check the Slimbook Executive. I think it's the coolest Slimbook.
| seanppaul wrote:
| I've been a dev for almost 20 years. Though a bulky laptop with
| finest specs would be great, I need mobility so I had luck with
| these three. Super portable, yet powerful.
|
| 1. Dell XPS 13
|
| 2. Lenovo X1 Carbon
|
| 3. HP Dragonfly Elite (current)
|
| Regardless of the brand I always stuc with i7/16Gb and at least
| 512Gb NVMe storage.
|
| One downside with my current machine (HP Dragonfly) is it comes
| with 8th Gen intel processor not really a big problem for me, but
| fan it a bit louder to my liking.
|
| Coming to Linux compatibility I've used Dell XPS 13 and Lenovo X1
| with no issues. Haven't tried Linux on the current machine yet.
| nextlevelwizard wrote:
| MacBook Air M1 works wonderfully for me
| princevegeta89 wrote:
| Linux is great. I'm with you. As someone who's been on Linux for
| 8 years I can say that if going with Linux be prepared to
| experience driver compahility issues and random broken things
| although the occurrence chance is small. Be prepared to spend
| time to deal with them. Also be prepared to have suboptimal
| drivers that don't fully Make use of your CPU and GPU and their
| power management functions. In some cases you can also be
| prepared to not be able to find good software for the use case
| you'd be looking for.
|
| Or just go on with Windows + WSL.
| er4hn wrote:
| I primarily use Pop_OS (Ubuntnu derivative) on a Thinkpad X1 as
| my development laptop. I'm able to run a few containers and
| VMs, vscode, some utils, spotify (via it's electron app),
| bluetooth keyboard, bluetooth headphones, with no issues.
| Pretty much all of the hardware stuff like bluetooth and wifi
| was supported out of the box.
|
| I normally work next to a power outlet, but if I don't have one
| my typical dev setup (vscode, spotify, some bluetooth, some
| containers running) gives me somewhere between 3 - 6 hours,
| which is pretty good imo.
|
| When I was feeling cheeky I setup Steam and got some basic
| games running through the Proton compatibility layer. That
| seems to have broken my ability to do updates due to some
| issues with Nvidia drivers and I'll look at that at some point.
|
| Overall though, an X1 with Linux can get you really far these
| days. I do have Windows around to dual boot if I need to but it
| is much slower and burns through battery like a jet plane
| through fuel.
| donnythecroc wrote:
| Msi
| rufius wrote:
| Framework. I use mine as a daily driver. Gets about 13 hours of
| battery life and It's repairable.
| ZuLuuuuuu wrote:
| IMO, Lenovo ThinkBook 13s Gen2 (Intel) and Gen3 (AMD) are hidden
| gems which are not much talked about.
|
| - 16:10 matte screen with no PWM
|
| - Very good port selection (1xUSB-C, HDMI, 2xUSB-A)
|
| - Good battery life (for a Windows laptop)
|
| - IMO, the best keyboard layout
|
| - Fingerprint reader
|
| - It is actually around 1100$
|
| - A difference between Intel and AMD versions is that AMD version
| does not support full length M.2 SSDs, it only supports the short
| ones.
|
| - But it is probably not for computing usage since it is thin and
| light
|
| A new gen with Alder Lake is announced a few weeks ago. It is
| almost the same but the biggest difference is that there are
| 2xUSB-C + 1xUSB-A instead of 1xUSB-C + 2xUSB-A. And the touchpad
| will be glass I think. Surprisingly the battery life seems a bit
| shorter on the upcoming gen. I currently cannot decide whether to
| buy Gen2 or wait for Gen4.
| lhl wrote:
| The Gen4 is supposed to be out this month, although many people
| are having their Lenovo laptop orders delayed (by months,
| even). You can check out r/thinkpad for the scuttlebutt. I like
| the new 16:10 2560x1600 display, but I don't know if there's
| going to be a keyboard lottery like with late-gen Thinkpads
| (distinct quality differences between Liteon and Chicony parts)
| - my biggest disappointment with the new version is that the
| AMD versions are Ryzen 5000 not 6000. At <45W the Ryzen 6000s
| have a distinct performance and battery-life performance vs the
| equivalent Intel 12th gen parts (like 50-100% better battery
| life when testing similar laptops for light loads like basic
| web browsing).
|
| I'm vaguely on the market, but willing to wait for a few months
| to see some real-world comparisons since I'm a full-time Linux
| user, and stuff like suspend behavior rarely gets proper
| coverage until a fellow dev starts using them - I've already
| taken a couple for the team the past couple years, so figure
| I'll sit back this round.
| schroeding wrote:
| Yeah, the ThinkBooks (both the 13" and the 16" models) are
| great! Linux Support is also good. The 16" models are also
| great if you need a laptop with a dedicated (consumer) GPU
| without any kind of "gamer aesthetic". :D
|
| They don't support classic sleep (S3 standby) anymore, though.
| But I'm not sure if any modern laptop still does. -\\_(tsu)_/-
| brudgers wrote:
| The best $2000 laptop is ten used Latitudes.
|
| Laptops are cattle, not pets.
| haspok wrote:
| > "battery life" vs "Optimized for intensive computing usage"
|
| These are contradicting conditions. (Unless maybe on an M1?)
|
| If you do use the CPU then battery life will drop even for the
| best laptops to a few hours max, while the fans will spin like
| crazy emulating a helicopter taking off. All the above mentioned
| laptops will behave like that.
|
| At my last place I had a Thinkpad P1 which is supposedly for the
| above mentioned purpose, and still I suffered from heating and
| noise, and the battery life was abysmal (2 hours of Zoom call
| would deplete it, for example).
|
| Although I just noticed that you didn't mention portability - in
| which case buy an older Thinkpad T4xx/5xx which had the dual
| battery setup, and buy some additional batteries too, and you can
| swap them on the fly. Sadly AFAIK Lenovo no longer makes these
| laptops...
|
| Battery life tips: 1. get the simplest screen (FHD instead of 4K,
| 90Hz...). 2. don't get an integrated 3D card.
| lelanthran wrote:
| > Battery life tips: 1. get the simplest screen (FHD instead of
| 4K, 90Hz...). 2. don't get an integrated 3D card.
|
| This sounds counter-intuitive. I thought integrated graphics
| used less power than a discrete amd/nvidia card.
| adrusi wrote:
| Yes, I can only imagine the parent made a very unfortunate
| choice of wording, meaning "integrated" as in "integrated
| into the laptop," and "3d card" as "discrete graphics card."
| You definitely want _A_ graphics card for battery life (not
| that you can buy a laptop without one) and you want it to be
| one integrated into the CPU.
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| Yeah, it's an unfortunate reality with your bog standard x86
| laptop. Choose performance or portability, silence, and battery
| life, but not both.
|
| And sometimes even when you pick your trade-off, it still
| doesn't work out. See my Thinkpad X1 Nano I selected as a
| silent ultraportable with decent battery life -- it spins its
| fan up to surpassingly loud levels when plugging in a 2560x1440
| 60hz display or whenever it's doing anything even remotely
| strenuous. If my needs for that machine didn't include Windows,
| I would have been so much better served by an M1 MacBook Air
| it's not even funny (and even then, I sometimes wonder if a
| bodge of Windows on ARM in a VM on an M1 Air wouldn't work
| better).
| lelanthran wrote:
| Depends on the development.
|
| I am doing C development, with some Javascript thrown in for the
| client, quite comfortably on a laptop from 2008 (Core 2 Duo, 2GB
| of RAM, 320GB spinning rust HDD).
|
| I use WindowMaker, Firefox, Xterm, Vim, Git, Clang and GCC. from
| login Window to my first xterm opened in the project directory is
| around 500ms. My build (C only) is currently around 700ms.
|
| My editing is lag-free only as long as Vim's 'cul' option is
| turned off.
| nullbytesmatter wrote:
| What cul option? Cursor line highlighting? I also recommend
| putting synmaxcol to something low, like 80-128.
| lelanthran wrote:
| > What cul option? Cursor line highlighting?
|
| yes.
|
| > I also recommend putting synmaxcol to something low, like
| 80-128.
|
| I'll keep that in mind if it slows down, but TBH it's working
| just fine right now.
| forinti wrote:
| I have a Core 2 Duo laptop. I pimped it up to 3GB of RAM and an
| SSD. I also installed Ubuntu Mate. It works great for remote
| work, when I mostly just use it as a terminal into my
| workstation. I can also use MS Teams on it without issues.
|
| I read somewhere that it might support 5GB of RAM (4GB + 1GB),
| but I don't want to spend more money on it on a gamble.
| cookiengineer wrote:
| I got myself a T440p because the 4th generation is the last one
| with replaceable display, battery, RAM and CPU.
|
| They're quite heavy but that's not an issue for me. Best bang for
| the buck I ever spent.
|
| Bought it around 2015 in used condition for around 250EUR, then
| upgraded CPU, RAM, batteries (2x as of now), got a bigger SSD and
| HDD (512GB+4TB) and got an IPS display and a touchpad of the T480
| which fits in there.
|
| I just love that laptop. Superb linux support once you figured
| out how to setup the synaptics driver configs with synclient.
|
| Oh and it's also the last generation (afaik) that can run
| coreboot as a BIOS.
|
| Overall I probably spent around 800EUR on it, but considering its
| lifetime (sold in 2013-today) I say it's definitely worth it. So
| many "Ultrabooks" and Macbook Pros died on me before, because I
| always overstressed their GPUs.
|
| There's a German Thinkpad wiki that contains all kinds of quirks
| and potential problems you can get, it's an amazing resource.
|
| The tldr is you should update the BIOS first and update the
| firmware of your dockingstation with windows running, and then
| install linux to be safe. [1]
|
| [1] https://thinkwiki.de/ThinkPad-Modelle
|
| edit: Oh and I used an external m.2 adapter to PCI-e occasionally
| when I have to do ML related work when I'm not at home on my
| tower. It kinda works but performance is limited to somewhat
| PCI-e 4x speed even when it says 8x mode is being used.
| kuschku wrote:
| If replaceable CPU isn't a priority, I can recommend the T470
| or T480.
|
| I'm currently using a T470 [1] with 16 GB DDR-3 3200MHz RAM
| [2], a 2 TB NVMe SSD [3], a Wi-Fi 6AX card [4], the Innolux
| N140HCG-GQ2 1080p 100% sRGB 8-bit 400 nits panel [5] (based on
| the T14 / T490 display), and the Lenovo 61++ battery [6].
|
| The result is a laptop that can hold 17 hours of battery
| (95Wh), supports a Thunderbolt 3 dock and the old Lenovo dock,
| supports USB-C PD charging and the old Lenovo charging port and
| is the perfect mix of performance, repairability, and
| compatibility.
|
| You can build this laptop yourself, depending on how the
| pricing is where you are, for about 600 EUR.
|
| ----------------
|
| [1] https://www.afbshop.de/notebooks/20668/lenovo-
| thinkpad-t470-... [2] https://www.amazon.de/dp/B08LQG2SDS/ [3]
| https://www.amazon.de/dp/B07MLJD32L/ [4]
| https://www.amazon.de/dp/B087WVLPXW/ [5] https://www.xelent-
| store.de/Innolux-N140HCG-GQ2-400cd-Low-Po... [6]
| https://www.amazon.de/dp/B06WGMPFCD
| penner_im_auto wrote:
| I can confirm that. Also have a T440p And I'm very happy with
| it. Added a 1 TB SSD, 16 GB RAM, Kubuntu, keep some spare CPUs
| with different performance levels because I travel a lot.
| Everything is very easily interchangeable, designed to military
| standards. I've had my device for 3 years, and it's already
| suffered bumps and scratches that would break other devices.
| Got myself a docking station for 25EUR for when I am home. It
| hasn't even crossed my mind to get another device since then.
| cookiengineer wrote:
| > It hasn't even crossed my mind to get another device since
| then.
|
| Honestly, I don't even know what to get in case it would
| break. I even have a spare mainboard just because it was 30
| bucks on eBay. But in case it would fail completely, I don't
| know how to replace it.
|
| Most other devices would be a major downgrade in
| repairability, which I meanwhile value so much that getting
| yet another Ultrabook that runs 2 years would be no option
| for me. The framework laptop and the System76 devices look
| nice, and either of those would probably win in that case,
| depending on which system is more easily repairable.
|
| But still, they're by far not as easily repairable when
| components break down.
| baq wrote:
| Unfortunately Windows with WSL is the best Linux out there in
| terms of hardware support and driver quality, so if at all
| possible, I'd recommend checking that out.
| boomskats wrote:
| I have a 2nd gen Thinkpad P1 with an H-series intel chip, 64 gigs
| of ddr4 memory and 2 NVMe SSDs. And a 4k OLED screen. It is
| divine, I can't recommend it enough.
| gameswithgo wrote:
| Framework laptop. I think the concerns about it being beta are
| unfounded, the few quirks it has are also had by Lenovo/Dell etc
| but you don't have a discerning userbase talking about a single
| model so much.
| Hippocrates wrote:
| M1 MacBook Air and use a linux VM, docker container or remote in
| to a linux machine. You can't beat the hardware for the price
| even with the extra hassle of having to work inside a Guest OS
| for whatever reason. Don't torture yourself with some Libre
| Laptop hardware just for an OS.
| Melatonic wrote:
| So to answer your question seriously I would say look at some of
| the newer laptops that have OLED screens and (if you need it)
| smaller dedicated GPU. These are going to be super future proof
| and you can sometimes get last years model very cheap. I do not
| have a ton of experience with them but personally might get
| something like the HP Spectre or maybe a Gigabyte or MSI laptop.
|
| What really holds me back though is the damn keyboards on modern
| laptops - they all suck. The old keyboard on my Thinkpad T420 I
| love in comparison. There are people that are actually replacing
| the whole innards (you can even buy them premade and shipped from
| China) of I believe the Thinkpad X301 or similar with modern CPU,
| modern screen, etc etc. And on the plus side anyone who sees your
| laptop at a cafe is going to think its an old POS and not even
| think about stealing it!
| secperkinsstan wrote:
| If the intensive computing is GPU use a lambda machine might be a
| good choice.
| watersb wrote:
| A quick announcement on Ars Technica -- the Lambda is nVidia
| CUDA, Linux beast laptop with very nice Razer design.
|
| https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/04/razer-designed-linux...
| zamalek wrote:
| Something to be wary of: Razer has a bad reliability
| reputation, in conjunction with bad customer support. The
| glowing remarks usually come from people who Razer has a
| vested interest in pleasing.
| bodge5000 wrote:
| The Razer design is nice, but as someone with a blade who's
| battery bulged within only a year of moderate use because
| cooling was clearly an after-thought to looking good, I
| wouldnt be quick to trust it.
|
| Then again, maybe they've improved since then. Mine was a
| 2019 model after all.
| malsanton wrote:
| so it's not just me! twice replaced a bulging battery so
| bad it caused the trackpad button to stop working.
| ineedasername wrote:
| No Intel proc with a U, T or Y suffix. These are all lower power
| versions that won't sustain high performance. You absolutely
| sacrifice battery significantly with anything else though when
| under sustained high performance, including strong AMD
| processors, but they may do a little better.
|
| Next is discrete graphics. If you just need multiple monitors, an
| Intel G CPU will usually do it. If you need discrete GPU, again
| you're going to sacrifice on battery.
|
| For longevity, you might want to consider a Xeon laptop. Lenovo
| has these, so they're one option.
|
| One measure of how much sustained performance a laptop can take
| is the charger wattage, usually buried in the spec sheet. In my
| experience chargers are rated only slightly higher than the
| wattage necessary to keep the machine going at top performance. A
| laptop with a low wattage charger is unlikely to sustain top
| performance for long. But it depends on your definition of
| "sustain". 10 minutes? Half an hour? Constant load of 60, 70,
| 80%? The charger heuristic just weeds out low power though.
| There's less of a guarantee that a higher wattage charger ==
| higher sustained performance.
| francis-io wrote:
| The professional (T series) line of the Thinkpads are my go to.
|
| I've been running ubuntu 20.04 for the past few years. You can
| have hot swap batteries and an inbuilt SIM slot if you choose.
| Not sure if the fingerprint is working (I didn't select that
| option) but everything else works flawlessly.
|
| Side note: I have been maintaining an Ansible playbook for years
| now that sets up my developer workstation. I do know Ansible
| already, but I think it's a worthwhile weekend project if you are
| starting from scratch. You just need to be consistent and have
| all changes go through Ansible.
| loganmarchione wrote:
| Is that playbook open source? I would love to see it.
| excitednumber wrote:
| I recently wimped out of buying a thinkpad due to uncertainty
| regarding getting Ubuntu running correctly and the time it
| would take me to do it. Do you have a guide you've used or
| instructions you have stashed somewhere?
| jack_pp wrote:
| I'm running Debian on a t490 and have had no issues so far. I
| can find a replacement t490 for under 600$ and it's a great
| dev machine.
| goosedragons wrote:
| What needs to be done depends on the model. Some models are
| Ubuntu certfied [0] and just work. They even sell some with
| it. Some need a little tweaking. I recently got a P14s Gen 2
| AMD at work and all I really had to do was install the OEM
| kernel to get WiFi working and set sleep in the BIOS to Linux
| instead of Windows. Otherwise everything works.
|
| [0] https://ubuntu.com/certified
| hef19898 wrote:
| Ubuntu runs flawless out of the box on my X1 Extreme Gen 2,
| when I installed it only Gen 1 (or 3, not sure anymore) was
| officially supported by Lenovo. My guess would be if the
| "same" laptop is supporting Ubuntu according to Lenovo it
| should be fine.
|
| There were some BIOS settings to change first to get the
| machine dual-boot ready, nothing fancy so as I don't even
| remember what it was. Getting a bootable USB stick was more
| challenging for me!
| philliphaydon wrote:
| Ubuntu more or less just works, just shove a bootable usb
| stick in, install it, and use it.
|
| Things get a bit fiddly if you want to use something like
| Manjaro or Fedora. But even then, it all just works.
| rkangel wrote:
| This is the classic "not the question you asked" but I
| strongly recommend running Fedora on laptops, particularly
| Thinkpads. It works perfectly on every Thinkpad I've tested
| on (a good half dozen models at this point) with the only
| exception being the usual graphics stuff if you have non-
| integrated or Intel graphics.
|
| There are two reasons for this - Fedora ships a far more
| recent kernel than most distros (the only competitor being
| Arch), and Redhat does a lot of work on Thinkpad support. On
| my T430 at home literally everything worked out of the box
| with zero config, all the way down to fingerprint reader and
| keyboard backlight.
| andmikey wrote:
| For my Thinkpad (Thinkpad 13, I think it's called L-series
| now) installing Ubuntu was no trouble at all - set up a
| bootable USB, install, and done. Ubuntu actually runs much
| better than Windows!
| philliphaydon wrote:
| Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Extreme (Gen 1) here with Manjaro, runs
| great. So I recommend ThinkPads.
| nullbytesmatter wrote:
| I have a Librem 15v4 by Purism. It's no longer sold, but it's a
| nice laptop. It's the only Purism laptop with a 4K screen. For
| some reason, you can only find FHD screens these days.
|
| System76 has some decent laptop options for Linux, but all are
| FHD.If I had to purchase a new laptop today, I'd look at System
| 76's Lemur Pro or Purism's Librem 14.
| yread wrote:
| get an hp elitebook in the 8 series (830, 835, 840, 845) the
| cheapest one with 400 nit screen and put as much ram and ssd as
| your budget allows, maintenance is easy nothing is soldered. I
| spent less than 2k on mine
| Saphyel wrote:
| I highly recommend Slimbook everyone I know they tried they
| loved.
|
| It's built for linux (as others that you mentioned) and they
| contribute to KDE and others open source projects so as you can
| expect if you have any issue they will reply to your queries.
|
| On the other hand purism probably is the worst you mentioned.
| threeaccents wrote:
| System76 makes some awesome laptops. Linux as a first class
| citizen.
| jbj wrote:
| I got a lenovo P15 last year with some of the cheapest specs in
| that price range.
|
| It has official ubuntu support, and you can get under the hood to
| add ram/ssd later.
| adhesive_wombat wrote:
| Second hand ThinkPad T series gets a lot of bang for the buck
| (maybe not as good as they used to be, but still good,
| repairable, generally upgradable and very available as ex-
| enterprise machines). Good matte displays, good hinges and great
| keyboards.
|
| Don't sweat the battery, they're removable, upgradeable to larger
| ones if you have to go a longer time on a charge and easy to
| replace. For the change left over from $2000, you can buy lots of
| them!
| horsestaple wrote:
| Yeah I don't think you need to spend so much when these second
| hand T-series get you 95% of the way there for less.
| iforgotpassword wrote:
| Thirded. Even switching to a 2 years old used T every other
| year is still cheaper than spending 2k just to get what's
| currently high end and hope it lasts you 6+ years.
|
| You get them decently refurbished on ebay as they are popular
| leasing models for companies which switch them out more or
| less on a fixed schedule. If you're lucky you get one that
| was sitting in a docking station for two years and is almost
| pristine, just the battery destroyed because it was on AC
| power uninterrupted.
| rjh29 wrote:
| I agree. I've tried the X1 Carbon and the T series. The T14s in
| particular is much cheaper than the X1, more powerful, more
| reliable, has more USB ports and deeper keybed, at the cost of
| being slightly thicker and heavier. In addition my X1 Carbon
| broke after two years of use (trackpad failed, left arrow key
| stopped working, trackpoint started moving by itself, etc.)
| which I think is due to how thin and flimsy the whole setup is.
| But I'm very happy with the Ryzen T14s.
| samsk wrote:
| Cant agree more.
|
| I've stopped buying new laptops and now I use refurbished
| Thinkpad P50 with i7, 64GB RAM, 512 SSD for ~1100 USD.
|
| If I need to do something really computing intensive, I rent a
| cloud VM ;-) Actually, I've one for each project I'm working
| on, and I scale them as/if needed.
| boppo1 wrote:
| Who do you use for the cloud VM? I'm in the market
| samsk wrote:
| Hetzner Cloud, cheap and solid
| faeriechangling wrote:
| I've been using these old T series thinkpads for awhile. What I
| get is dim 16:9 screens, whisper quiet tinny speakers, battery
| life reliant on the extended batteries that ended with T480,
| these old units are half as fast at least as a contemporary
| laptop. The antiglare is mostly necessary because the stock
| screen can't handle more than 250nit in an HDR world. I can't
| advise a better machine for around 500, but on a 2 grand budget
| I think it's worth getting more.
|
| Yet I almost see a fetishism around these machines I don't
| truly understand. 1080p, 60hz, 250nit, 16:9, 54% sRGB is the
| most common config you'll see and I really think on a 2 grand
| budget you shouldn't put up with it when purchasing new. This
| is also just a Lenovo thing, the Elitebook from the same year
| was 630nit 88% sRGB and the funny thing is that Lenovo probably
| only saved 10 or 20 bucks stocking this crap based on the price
| of replacement parts. On a 2 grand budget I'd spoil yourself
| with something better.
| hef19898 wrote:
| Agree. I have refurbished T series as a back up and a then-new
| X1 Extreme as a daily driver. For everything work related the T
| series was more then enough, and it cost a fraction of the X1
| Extreme. I did go with the X1 so as it also replaced an
| obsolete gaming desktop, so it was still reasonably priced
| overall.
| cehrlich wrote:
| Absolutely. IMO the best current ThinkPad in terms of
| performance per dollar is the T480 (Quad Core Intel 8th gen).
| You can find them shockingly cheap if you're patient. Like only
| 50% more than the T420, which has an ancient Dual Core.
| jen20 wrote:
| But with a much worse keyboard than the T420.
| croutonwagon wrote:
| Have you considered System76?
|
| https://system76.com/laptops
|
| Another one i found interesting is the framework laptop. Its
| completely modular.
|
| https://frame.work/
|
| And apparently their firmware is opensource.
|
| https://frame.work/blog/open-sourcing-our-firmware
|
| That said if you are looking to play games or have a dedicated
| graphics card your options will be severely limited.
| kellogs_aran wrote:
| Hi. OP here. I read some of the previous HN threads on System76
| and just laptops generally and it seems like these won't be a
| good fit for me now. Maybe later when both products are a bit
| more mature.
| croutonwagon wrote:
| Yeah understandable.
|
| We all have our own requirements that change up our own
| decision.
|
| For example i CANT stand large laptops. 12.5-14" is my max.
| That excludes a lot of options though.
| julianlam wrote:
| Depends on the games I suppose. The games I like (CS, sleeping
| dogs, cities skylines) all run spectacularly on a Ryzen 3
| desktop (not System76)
|
| Well, I haven't actually tried the last one since I added more
| RAM, but I imagine it would work well too.
| SkyMarshal wrote:
| Play around with laptop builds on https://xoticpc.com/ and see if
| any configuration there works for you.
|
| Just check the hardware compatibility lists to make sure certain
| things like the WiFi chips have Linux support.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31014306
|
| https://www.linuxcompatible.org/
| hpcjoe wrote:
| I have several different laptops. Current main (the unit I'm
| typing this on) is Linux Mint 20.2 based, AMD Zen2 8c/16t, 64GB
| ram, 3TB NVME, Renior (AMD) and 1660Ti (NVidia) based. HP Omen 15
| 2020 edition.
|
| I get about 3-4 hours of battery life (meh), with iGPU (AMD).
| Very light. Good keyboard, and trackpad. Everything works under
| linux, though sometimes the BT vanishes (I think I need to reseat
| that, but I was lazy and installed a $10 USB BT5.1 adapter). I do
| heavy development/builds/testing on it.
|
| I run windows in a kvm instance window if I need it (less than
| once per quarter at this point). Came w/o OS. Bought it on Amazon
| late 2020 for about $1850 or so.
|
| The laptop it replaced (though still alive) is a Sager 4c/8t
| Intel with GTX 1060 ish dGPU, Intel iGPU, 64 GB ram, and 1.5 TB
| SSD. Very capable machine, though battery life is abysmal. Maybe
| an hour. Its my current living room machine. Came pre-installed
| with Windows, but I installed 2 SSDs, and bumped the memory from
| 16GB to 64GB. Reworked the boot and virtualized windows (windows
| should never touch physin government's Federal Ministry of
| Education and Research.cal hardware). Bought in 2018 for about
| $2200. It is heavy, bulky, good workhorse, but older Intel CPU.
|
| I also have a Sager I bought in 2010. Still works, 16GB ram,
| 4c/8t, 500GB SSD, GTX 560m graphics. Its my basement lab machine.
|
| All 3 run Linux Mint 20.2. All function well (even the old
| machine). I expect I won't need to replace the new machine for
| quite some time.
|
| That said, work laptop is finally a Mac, having been stuck on
| horrible Windows machines from Dell. Had many driver/OS problems
| with windows, machines crashed regularly. BSOD and others.
|
| Newer M1 Pro now. Far more stable than windows, almost ... almost
| as good a UX as linux. CPUs are fast, though even with Homebrew,
| I can't build everything. This one ran the company about $3500 or
| so.
|
| YMMV, but the HP Omen series is nice.
| hpcjoe wrote:
| s/physin government's Federal Ministry of Education and
| Research./physi/g
|
| _sigh_ fat fingered this one
| talentedcoin wrote:
| For what it's worth, I have been using cheap-o refurbished HP
| Elitebooks (the 830) off of eBay running Fedora and they are
| great. I have been running my old one for years and years and the
| new one for about a year or so.
|
| Battery life erodes over time but a new battery will fix it right
| up.
|
| It depends what kind of development you're doing, of course. I am
| not sure what intensive computer usage means to you, but I would
| say I use it intensively! But I am not doing anything that
| requires a GPU nor am I re-compiling kernels every day. But for
| my humble needs I've found it's a cost-effective solution that
| holds up quite well.
| windex wrote:
| I got an old X series thinkpad for 120USD. upgraded ram, and HDD
| to SSD. Does its work.
| jazzyjackson wrote:
| serious question: what is the practical difference between MacOS
| and Linux?
|
| Do you have a habit of modifying your wifi drivers and
| recompiling the source? I am big on open source but have never
| felt my life was improved chasing dependencies vs just _brew
| install_ ... I have never had a satisfactory battery + sleep
| /standby experience on a linux machine, vs a Mac I can leave
| unplugged for weeks and it wakes back up where I left off,
| battery still holding charge, so I'm just curious what is worth
| the tradeoff, especially when your priorities are battery life,
| computational performance, and hardware longevity (I get a new
| MacBook every ~5 years)
| gnfargbl wrote:
| Serious answer: My work laptop is a toolbench, and I want the
| tools to operate _exactly_ as I expect them to. For me, that
| means that I want a Linux environment, not a BSD-ish
| environment. I want my standard Unix tools to be the GNU
| variants, and for them not to be named with an extra "g"
| prefix. I want the OS to install binaries roughly where I
| expect them to be. I want the init system to work in a way I
| understand.
|
| Basically, I want Linux because I am familiar with how Linux
| and Linux tooling works, and that makes me very efficient on
| Linux. Using MacOS is _acceptable_ but it feels somewhat like
| having one hand tied behind my back. A seasoned MacOS user
| probably has the same feeling but in reverse.
|
| (As an aside: In 2022, I don't recognize the comments about
| modifying WiFi drivers, compiling from source or having
| sleep/resume issues. That definitely used to be the case in the
| distant past, but over the last five years or so Ubuntu have
| really got their stuff together. I don't think I would have
| ever recognized the comments on _brew_ , which I always found
| infuriating and messy compared to _apt_. Perhaps it all comes
| down to taste, and that 's okay?)
| StillBored wrote:
| sleep/standby on linux has really gone downhill in the last
| couple years, mostly because of microsoft's modern standby,
| which has become a price discrimination option for
| HP/dell/lenovo which only provide the better supported S3/etc
| ACPI methods on their "linux compatible" laptops.
|
| So, what happens is that Linux tends to "work" on lots of lower
| end laptops/etc that ship with windows, but suspend will
| consume considerably more power vs just turning everything but
| the DRAM refresh off (what happens with S3). If you find a
| laptop with S3/etc support, the battery will last for days in
| linux as well. I have an older cheap dell inspiron from ~2016
| and it can stay in S3 for more than a week from a full charge,
| and with a bit of powertoy/etc tweaking idles at about 3W which
| gives it about a 14 hour battery just sitting there with the
| screen/emacs running.
|
| So, its definitely worth getting a "linux compatible" laptop if
| your not a kernel hacker who is willing to fix bugs in various
| drivers. Even then if your picky and you get a bleeding edge
| machine its quite likely there will be quality of life issues
| for the first couple years until all the fixes work their way
| through to all the distro's/etc everyone runs.
|
| Its actually a good reason for avoiding the tier 1 OEM's,
| because acer/asus/msi/etc tend to ship with a full suite of
| BIOS options which allow better linux tuning. HP has gotten
| quite aggressive about changing/etc the password/hidden key
| sequences to unlock the hidden bios options.
| zamalek wrote:
| Containers are a constant headache on MacOS. The likes of Lima
| have greatly improved the situation, but there are still
| several issues (network reliability and performance are
| significant issues).
|
| > Do you have a habit of modifying your wifi drivers and
| recompiling the source?
|
| Not even once. But thank god for the people who do put in the
| effort to code support for shitty walled gardens[1]. This age
| old strawman argument diverts attention away from many of the
| other virtues of Linux.
|
| My personal coding and gaming machine runs Linux. My work
| laptop is MacOS. Almost every day (as no exaggeration) there is
| something new that doesn't work on MacOS, that yet another
| hostage of the Apple ecosystem has fixed for Apple.
|
| > improved chasing dependencies vs just brew install
|
| This is a very strange comment considering that brew was
| inspired by Linux package managers. Brew is incredible compared
| to what is available on MacOS (which, to be clear, is nothing),
| but it doesn't hold a candle to what's happening in the Linux
| world - especially with the likes of ostree, guix, and nix.
|
| MacOS is an operating system designed for creators and
| influencers. It can be modified to the bare minimum of
| development competency. Even Windows pulls ahead of it with
| WSL, and that's saying something.
|
| I can't comprehend why developers voluntarily subject
| themselves to it.
|
| [1]: https://asahilinux.org/
| princevegeta89 wrote:
| +1 agree with your points. Although I wasn't sure about
| things on mac breaking every other day. I agree with your
| sentiment on Brew - it sucks incredibly hard compared to any
| other package managers from any Linux distro lol. Currently
| trying out Windows + WSL to decide between full-on Linux or
| Windows
| afarrell wrote:
| The thing I miss most from Linux is strace. This is far
| outweighed by
|
| 1. The much frequency with which stuff _just works_ on OSX.
|
| 2. The opportunities to spend $30 on an app instead of
| $300-$800 worth of time on software that is Free as in Puppy.
| usr1106 wrote:
| Are you serious? There is nothing comparable to strace on
| MacOS? strace can save you so much time if some software
| (your own or not) just doesn't work like you want. Of course
| problems 100% in user space are not covered. But I find a
| fair share of real world problems are.
| jlokier wrote:
| > Are you serious? There is nothing comparable to strace on
| MacOS?
|
| There's dtruss, but the information and options are nowhere
| near as useful as strace, and for some system calls it
| prints errors instead. read() and write() print access
| errors so you can't see what's read and written, same with
| stat/fstat, you just get an address, no file information.
|
| Perhaps strace could be ported to MacOS but it's not. "brew
| install strace" says "strace: Linux is required for this
| software." :-)
| lelanthran wrote:
| > serious question: what is the practical difference between
| MacOS and Linux?
|
| For a daily driver? Poor UI experience on MacOS. On Linux
| usually one of Mate, Plasma, WindowMaker, XFCE or Gnome will
| have the Window behaviour (snapping, tiling, maximising,
| switching) I want.
|
| All of the Linux options have file-selection dialogs that don't
| suck. All of the Linux distros I have used for a daily driver
| have better software than brew.
|
| MacOS kernel certainly has some nice surprises (compressed
| memory is impressive), it doesn't ever crash and it sleeps and
| wakes correctly.
|
| OTOH, all the non-kernel software is, frankly, crap. They're
| unintuitive, hard to use and limited in variety.
| geekifier wrote:
| > it doesn't ever crash and it sleeps and wakes correctly.
|
| Maybe I have been unlucky, but I have experienced many panics
| across several different machines running recent MacOS
| releases. 2 of those being corporate machines, so I can blame
| the "security" software that gets deployed. My home Mac mini,
| does not have any crapware deployed, and it still managed to
| crash once or twice.
|
| In contrast, my ancient desktop running Windows 10 has not
| had a single BSOD in the years since I built that Ivy Bridge
| machine. And this included running much more intensive
| workloads than the terminal/docker/text editor workloads on
| my Macs.
| JabavuAdams wrote:
| My 2017 MacBookPro laptop swings from 12GB free to 600MB free
| back to 12GB for no apparent reason, while giving me warning
| notifications of low disk space that I can't turn off. The only
| reason I have 12 GB free instead of 3-4 is that I uninstalled a
| whole bunch of stuff so that I could actually do a Time Machine
| backup. Yes, I had to uninstall stuff in order to do a backup.
| Seems backwards.
|
| These annoyances from the company that supposedly is obsessive
| about user experience make one feel helpless and frustrated.
|
| Overall, Mac feels less janky from a GUI/visual point of view
| than Linux, but frankly I'm spending more and more time on
| Linux because it's just more predictable. Also lots of
| Raspberry Pi tinkering.
|
| A rogue Windows update bricked my machine the day before an
| important deadline. This is just so unbelievably unacceptable
| that I can't believe we collectively put up with this nonsense.
|
| Yes, default macOS is more aesthetically pleasing than default
| Linux, but the helplessness when something goes wrong ...
| jazzyjackson wrote:
| predictability is my favorite answer so far, thanks, I just
| had the issue of "why is safari closing tabs on its own" and
| the answer was "because icloud is trying to sync my tabs" ...
| the less remote management being done on my machine from the
| cloud the better
| funklute wrote:
| For a start, the hardware. I hate working on glossy screens,
| and it's not possible these days to get macs with matte screens
| (I know I can install a diffuser, but for the price point apple
| operates at, I shouldn't need to spend extra money on adapting
| the hardware).
|
| Also, bugs in the OS where you're completely at the mercy of
| Apple. I like to do custom re-mappings on my keyboard, and the
| last time I tried a mac (around 2016), the keyboard reverted to
| the default layout every time I viewed a pdf. At the time,
| there was no way of fixing this issue. Along with the glossy
| screen, this issue convinced me that MacOS was not at the time
| a viable platform for me.
| rpdillon wrote:
| Not OP, but MacOS has very different ergonomics than Linux. My
| latest frustration on MacOS is switching between
| desktops/workspaces quickly. In any Linux distro, I can use
| both alt-tab and desktops to manage windows and switch
| instantly between programs. On MacOS, even when I disable
| animations using accessibility settings ("Reduce Motion"),
| switching workspaces comes with a delay during which the
| workspace appears switched, but keyboard input is eaten because
| the application window hasn't been given focus by the WM yet.
| Linux gives me the freedom to switch WMs, but on MacOS, I'm
| trying to cobble together something workable using alt-tab (the
| app) and accessibility settings, and still not succeeding. I've
| searched for a fix[0], but no luck so far.
|
| I agree about power management, but having freedom to configure
| things like this is a bigger factor for me personally. As far
| as package management, my experience with apt has been better
| than my experience using brew, though both are serviceable.
|
| [0]: https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/17929/how-can-i-
| di...
| Atreiden wrote:
| Yabai + SKHD will totally change your workflow for the
| better. Sometimes I forget most people don't have it set up
| by default so I get confused when I read comments like these.
|
| Tiling is snappy, workspace switching is instant. And I'm on
| a pre-m1 machine with 16GB RAM.
| rpdillon wrote:
| It's this kind of response that motivates me to post on HN
| about topics like this! I use Rectangle[0] for tiling, and
| I'm quite happy with it, but have not explored SKHD yet.
| Will give it a try now, thank you!
|
| [0]: https://rectangleapp.com/
| kuschku wrote:
| I like being able to replace individual parts of my laptop with
| newer, better hardware without having to throw out the whole
| device. I like that this new hardware just works, instead of
| the OS vendor only supporting a handful of approved internal
| Wi-Fi modules.
|
| It's awesome that I can build custom PAM modules and disk
| encryption unlocking solutions to enforce that both a password
| and a YubiKey need to be present to unlock the disk. I love
| being able to configure my display manager to discard the
| decryption keys for my user pool when I log out to get the same
| kind of security that I'd have on a phone.
|
| Being able to modify soft- and hardware allows you to add
| features that other OS vendors don't yet support, or retrofit
| new features and functionality onto old hardware to make it
| usable far beyond its planned EOL.
| Aaargh20318 wrote:
| > I like being able to replace individual parts of my laptop
| with newer, better hardware without having to throw out the
| whole device.
|
| Do you actually _do_ that, or do you just like the idea of
| being able to do it ? Even on a desktop PC, where upgrading
| is much easier and more common, I 've never seen the point.
|
| Either you upgrade fairly often, in which case you pay a
| relatively large amount for marginal improvements, or you
| upgrade every few years, in which case you need to replace so
| many parts you might as well replace the entire machine.
|
| Say you upgrade the CPU to a newer model after a year, that's
| a fairly costly upgrade and how much additional performance
| will you get in return ?
|
| If you wait a few years to upgrade your CPU, you'll find that
| the new CPU also requires a new motherboard, and the new
| motherboard requires a new type of RAM. They you find out
| that your old GPU is now a bottleneck, and when replacing
| that you realise your new GPU requires an new power supply as
| well. By the time you're finished all you've done is recycled
| the case.
| kuschku wrote:
| See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31095339 for the
| replacements I did on my current device. I've replaced
| pretty much everything over the years. I only need to
| replace parts that actually become a bottleneck.
|
| e.g., if just the RAM is an issue, I don't have to buy an
| entirely new device and pay extra for everything else.
| teva wrote:
| Docker is very slow on MacOS
| idontwantthis wrote:
| How slow? Using it every day here on MacOS with no
| difficulties. Using Rancher Desktop as well.
| smoldesu wrote:
| Go boot up a Linux machine and see for yourself. APFS has
| been a Docker bottleneck for years, and thats before we
| even get to the kernel issues...
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| The UI is atrocious on Mac OS X or on Windows.
|
| Out of the box, Linux UI is a bit better - but it's easy to
| make it excellent and make it fit like a glove. Tiling or
| partially tiling managers outside of Linux are terrible.
|
| Whether you like a default full fledged desktop experience with
| Plasma or you go with a super tuned sway, you can really get
| what you want out of your machine.
|
| The UI is the main reason I try to use Linux as much as I can
| but there are tons of other advantages. Docker works natively
| and fast, developing anything (but iOS apps) is a smooth
| experience. Package managers are 20 years ahead brew or
| chocolate on Windows.
|
| If you use Arch you get an even better package manager
| experience compared to other distro: you get bleeding edge
| packages + AUR, a user contributed repository of scripts to
| build and install custom packages.
|
| If you use something like NixOS you get to define your system
| with a configuration file and you can truly bootstrap and
| switch between different systems with a CLI command.
| goosedragons wrote:
| Choice? Good package manager and tool setup out of the box? Not
| having to buy a bunch of $10 utilities every 3 years to fix
| basic OS pain points that end up broken by an OS update or
| Apple killing some thing? macOS wants you do things the Apple
| way and going against that is a lot of pain in my experience
| for little gain.
|
| My 2018 MBP would lose battery on sleep too. I don't even know
| what shutdown does because the force trackpad still keeps
| clicking while "off".
| pm215 wrote:
| The really big thing that gets me on macos is not having focus-
| follows-mouse and works-everywhere select-to-copy middle-click-
| to-paste. Yes, this is "just" a UI thing, and yes, I can more
| or less get used to the macos choices (I used a macbook air as
| my "take to conferences" laptop for some years and still use it
| as my "video-calls machine" -- when I bought it no PC was close
| for hardware quality and weight at the price). But I've been
| using a Linux window manager with those behaviours for 25 years
| now, and I'm just more comfortable and familiar with them.
| macos makes a lot of choices for you, which is great when
| they're about stuff that you don't care about or isn't a deal-
| breaker. But if you're unlucky and one of those choices _is_ a
| personal deal-breaker, then sometimes you can end up just
| having to rule out a macos machine.
| terafo wrote:
| Are M1 Macs with Asahi Linux a viable option for daily-driver or
| they are not mature enough?
| Milner08 wrote:
| I would say not mature enough yet. There are plenty of things
| missing support right now.
| Casteil wrote:
| Definitely not mature enough for a daily driver.
|
| It's an alpha, and there are significant things that don't work
| yet including HDMI, displayport, thunderbolt, GPU acceleration,
| video acceleration, and sleep/deep idle.
|
| https://asahilinux.org/2022/03/asahi-linux-alpha-release/
| martinald wrote:
| I've rarely seen a Linux laptop with solid display out, GPU
| acceleration and sleep/wake ever though...
| smoldesu wrote:
| Really? Unless your machine is completely unsupported by
| the kernel, I find that hard to believe. Even Nvidia
| machines "just work" these days...
| prmoustache wrote:
| No issue on my two thinkpads (E580 and Yoga 390), my Dell
| Latitude 5310, my GPD Pocket 2 in that regard.
|
| I have an HP elitebook 8140p that works well with netflix,
| hbomax and youtube but seems to have lower framerates with
| other video streaming services. Not sure if it because it
| uses the nouveau driver or because it is just more than a
| decade old.
| silon42 wrote:
| I'm happy with my T480 (has NVidia, but I disabled it -- it
| did mostly work with open source drivers, just warmish)...
| USB-C DP, PD works.
|
| The only issue I have is that original Docking station
| sometimes fails to switch audio outputs (Ubuntu LTS).
| tzs wrote:
| Anyone here have any experience with running Linux via UTM or
| Parallels on M1?
|
| 99.9% of what I do on Linux is command line (I usually don't
| even install a GUI, using an X server on another machine on
| those rare occasions I want to run a Linux app with a GUI),
| so I'm mostly curious about that case.
| indiv0 wrote:
| Parallels on M1 here! I followed mitchellh's guide to setup
| NixOS [0]. He runs an X server on the machine and works
| entirely within that (minus mail, etc.). I tried that at
| first then decided against.
|
| I'm now running the machine headless in the Parallels VM,
| and using VS Code on the host to Remote SSH into the
| machine. It's absolutely incredible and I highly recommend
| this workflow. My rationale is here [1].
|
| Fair warning I haven't tried to get any OS other than NixOS
| installed. Not sure how usable Ubuntu ARM or others are.
|
| [0]: https://github.com/mitchellh/nixos-config [1]:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31101605
| smoyer wrote:
| I've had great success with Lenovo X1 Carbon laptops running
| Linux (Debian with XFCE). I've also had good luck with the older
| Dell XPS laptops. Getting either of these for $2k would require a
| sale and if you want to run a lot of Docker containers you'll
| need to pick a beefier model.
|
| My only annoyance, which seems to cross brands, is that none of
| the newer laptops support the deeper sleep modes.
| bodge5000 wrote:
| These threads always surprise me with the number of people who
| buy _new_ thinkpads. Nothing wrong with them I 'm sure (well,
| maybe a few things wrong with them), I just never even considered
| it as an option.
|
| I recently picked up an old 2005-ish (edit: 2011 actually) x220
| for a few hundred quid off ebay which seems to be running nicely.
| Specs aren't anything to shout about but it works fine for what
| it is. Durability wise, its clearly been running for at least 15
| (edit: 10?) years so its got something to it.
| bdlowery wrote:
| Love me some plastic frame laptops
| zhdc1 wrote:
| > I recently picked up an old 2005-ish x220 for a few hundred
| quid off ebay which seems to be running nicely.
|
| The x220 launched in 2011. It's an old machine, but not that
| old.
|
| That said, I ran one myself for years and highly recommend it
| if you need a barebones, durable laptop for under 200ish.
| bodge5000 wrote:
| Yep, your right. I did a google search and it came up with
| 2005, but that turned out to be the entire X-series. Cheers
| Google.
| culopatin wrote:
| Someone bought that laptop new at some point.
| mtreis86 wrote:
| I also have a x220. A couple of the benefits/tradeoffs:
|
| The keyboard is the best, I have never used a laptop with a
| better one.
|
| Using a dual core sandybridge is slow but if you develop on a
| slow machine you'll never build something your customers can't
| use.
|
| You can install coreboot on it and remove IME.
|
| It is on the list of systems Qubes (and every other Linux) runs
| 100% on.
|
| The screen is only 720p but you can install a 1080p with a mod.
|
| 12in is borderline too small a screen size but the laptop is
| compact.
|
| An extended battery in it gets around 8hrs of use.
|
| Almost the entire machine is magnesium, aside from a strip of
| plastic at the top covering the antennas.
|
| It can actually run 1600mhz 16gb of RAM.
| bodge5000 wrote:
| > if you develop on a slow machine you'll never build
| something your customers can't use
|
| This is the philosophy I try to go by. Some call it premature
| optimisation, but I just like working on optimisation as part
| of the normal dev process, rather than a secondary step which
| is all too easy to gloss over.
|
| It gets a bit more difficult when it comes to game dev
| though, which is the current dilemma I'm in (need a new
| personal machine, which may end up being the x220, but
| that'll find use in any case).
| chronogram wrote:
| The X220 is from 2011. And they are good laptops yes, I have
| mine at a friend still running fine with an SSD and a bit more
| RAM.
| PaywallBuster wrote:
| Huawei Matebook looks interesting alternative to Macbook
|
| https://consumer.huawei.com/en/laptops/matebook-14-amd-2020/
|
| Similar build and high power CPUs (not the mobile optimized/low
| power)
| andrepd wrote:
| notebookcheck.net has excellent in-depth review and "top 10"
| lists in various categories (gaming, office, workstation, etc)
| ParsnipsOfSnail wrote:
| Bought an XPS 15 9500 last March, ticks these boxes for me. I
| think these laptops are underrated as Linux machines, frequently
| overshadowed by ThinkPads.
|
| - Good linux support, only had to manually install one driver.
|
| - Good durability. I'm very careless with my devices, all my
| laptops have broken at the hinges at least once. This one has
| held up after multiple hard drops.
|
| - Very quiet, fan noise barely noticeable even under load.
|
| - You can upgrade the memory
|
| - Easy to take apart and service as a user, which is great since
| I'm going to break something and have to service it eventually.
| Dell XPSs have always been the best for this IMO, at least of the
| mainstream laptops I've used.
|
| TLDR: Good combo of linux+repairable+quality+rugged
| nobody10 wrote:
| I have Kubuntu Focus XE. Pros - support replies quickly - I
| really haven't install any new software other than Discord and
| Spotify. Everything comes out of the box. - Has all the IOs that
| I ever need. - Very light, build quality is above average.
|
| Cons - Mouse pad is kind of sensitive - I would trigger it by
| accident while typing.
| jwalton wrote:
| Lenovo has some pretty good sales on thinkpad X1s (at least they
| do in Canada - didn't check the US site). But, if you're in
| Canada, I just bought this:
| https://www.newegg.ca/p/N82E16834233446?Description=gigabyte...
|
| It's got a gorgeous 4K OLED screen, a quite decent CPU and GPU,
| and it's currently $350 off + a $300 mail in rebate (there was an
| additional $350 off over the easter weekend, too). The track pad
| is not my favorite, but it's good enough, and the keyboard is
| very decent. I haven't had it very long and mostly it's plugged
| in so I can't comment too much about battery life.
|
| My biggest complaint is that the screen is too good. When I'm
| done with the laptop and come up to my desktop, my IPS screens
| look washed out and sad. :P
|
| Edit: I didn't buy the X1, I bought a Gigabyte Aero 15.
| linza wrote:
| How does the display work for you in bright daylight? I
| couldn't find any definitive information about the OLED option
| if it's more glossy or more matte.
| octagons wrote:
| I believe the OLED version has a glossy, glass screen. I
| ended up going with the matte 1080p screen for both of my X1
| generations. It works quite well in bright daylight from my
| experience, but will still have some glare.
| McScrooge wrote:
| How has Lenovo dealt with the malware fallout from years past?
| I've wanted to purchase a thinkpad recently but I don't see how
| to trust them again.
| jthrowsitaway wrote:
| The malware didn't affect their "business" Thinkpads. They
| really shot themselves in the foot by diluting the Thinkpad
| name and slapping it on $300 consumer laptops.
| quesomaster9000 wrote:
| Likewise I was going to get an X1 after owning several higher-
| end Thinkpad and Macbook models over the years.
|
| Instead I went with a Gigabyte Aero 15 OLED, 11th gen i7, 32gb
| ram, RTX 3070 etc. and after using the trackpad and keyboard
| daily it's an excellent daily driver that'll power through
| anything I can throw at it.
|
| My only qualm is I can't be bothered to get the fingerprint
| reader working properly in Linux and finding a slim but
| protective case that still fits in my rucksack has been a pain.
| avel wrote:
| I am happier with the 1080p screen on the X1. Better
| performance, less headaches with non-high-dpi-friendly apps,
| better symmetry when connecting to a non-4k external monitor.
| rodelrod wrote:
| Same experience. Makes life easier with no downsides I can
| perceive.
| colordrops wrote:
| I'd recommend a 1440p screen, so that the dot pitch would be
| roughly the same as your external monitor, assuming it's 4k.
| hknapp wrote:
| I think they are 1200p now also.
| octagons wrote:
| Absolutely love the X1 series. I use it as a daily driver
| running Linux and can vouch for some of the points made in this
| thread about them.
| RosanaAnaDana wrote:
| How is the battery life?
| faster wrote:
| I get 5-7 hours on battery from my X1C7 FHD running Ubuntu.
| I carry a power bank in my bag that gives me that much
| again.
| sergiosgc wrote:
| I second that. I only use X1Cs. Had a gen3, gen7 and
| currently use a gen9. The one I have now (X1C Gen9) is the
| first one that turns the fans on without any CPU heavy task
| (compiling, blender, stuff like that). Low RPM, but fanning
| nonetheless. I throttled the CPU (i7-1165G7@2.8GHz) to 2GHz
| (the hardware limit is 4.7GHz), and it no longer heats up;
| bullet dodged.
|
| The gen7 had a screen malfunction, repaired under warranty
| with flawless service. I just upgraded because it would take
| two weeks for service turnaround, and we might as well have a
| spare laptop around.
|
| Excellent keyboard, much better than Macs. I use trackpoint,
| so I'm unable to evaluate the trackpad. The internal display
| is 1920x1200, and I have nothing bad to say about it.
| Excellent linux driver coverage. Runs cool, even if it
| required capping its performance.
| scruple wrote:
| I have the X1C gen 7 and love it, has been a wonderful
| machine for me. It's my personal laptop, and I do most of
| my personal development on a desktop machine, but it sees
| use many days each week. I'm running linux. I haven't had
| any complaints about this machine whatsoever.
| joshvm wrote:
| I used an X1 for a year, though with Windows. I'm not sure I'd
| recommend it at the price Lenovo want, but it has some nice
| points. Price is really the main downside for me. It's in the
| same ballpark as a Macbook Pro (the model I have was $2500 off
| the shelf) and the hardware just isn't quite there. Fine if
| someone else is paying for it!
|
| Upgradeability is decent, though RAM is soldered in. You can
| swap in hard drives, upgrade the antenna and Lenovo has a
| decent manual for replacing parts.
|
| It's a very light laptop, which is nice. It's also extremely
| sturdy. No problems with flex or whatever when it's thrown in a
| full backpack.
|
| It works well with an eGPU, but the main USB-C power port is
| quite wobbly even after a thorough clean out.
|
| It has a stupid proprietary Ethernet adapter that also blocks
| the USB-C port. I assume this is for use with the official
| dock, but why not just have two USB-C ports?
|
| The speakers are awful. Yes we're going to compare to a Macbook
| as the gold standard, but for a $2k laptop I really want
| better.
|
| Thermals aren't great and it dumps exhaust heat on your mouse
| hand.
|
| Keyboard is good, trackpad is mediocre.
|
| The display is good, and it's bright. There are some funny
| graphics driver issues with Intel. The display flickers when
| switching between power/battery and often the backlight
| settings mess up. It also suffers from screen burn if you
| forget to use a screensaver or leave it on for a while.
|
| Battery performance tanked pretty fast for me. I barely get a
| few hours these days. If you run on low power mode, it's not
| usable because CPU throttling is so severe.
| kellogs_aran wrote:
| Hi. OP here. Thanks to everyone who's shared their experiences
| with the Thinkpad X series in this thread. Will add them to my
| list of laptops to review.
| geoka9 wrote:
| I've had the 6th gen for a few years now. Overall, I like it.
| But these are my issues:
|
| - Really wobbly USB-C port(s). The original power brick
| doesn't work reliably anymore (I have to play with the
| connection in order to get the laptop to charge)
|
| - 16 GB RAM is limiting now and can't be expanded
|
| - The keyboard... It's more of a general modern laptop issue,
| but whenever I pull out my old W520 with the original
| Thinkpad keyboard, I start dreaming of going back. Maybe I
| will.
| CoolGuySteve wrote:
| I have a Lenovo X13 Gen 2 with a 16 thread Ryzen 5850U and 32GB
| of RAM. It's about the most powerful you can get while still
| having a power efficient CPU under load. I spend all day
| compiling with all cores and battery is still around 8-9 hours
| with a 90% charging cap set in the bios to preserve battery
| longevity.
|
| Linux works great on the AMD chipset but I had to replace the
| Wi-Fi card with an Intel AX220.
|
| After buying the aftermarket Wi-Fi card and 2TB SSD, I spent
| about $1200. Build quality and dimensions are comparable but a
| little worse than the Carbon imo.
| ho_schi wrote:
| Using still a ThinkPad X220 with Linux and will switch likely
| this year to a X13 AMD Gen3. I personally prefer the X13
| because it is solid, powerful and provide many connectors. I
| hope the next MediaTek WiFi-Chips are better this time, if
| not Intel-WiFi.
|
| The X1 is slimmer, lightweight but scarifies a lot and is
| expensive. The X13 ARM is passively cooled which a major
| benefit, similar to the MacBook Air but due to ARMs and
| Qualcomm bad support of Linux not even an option. A passively
| cooled AMD variant would be more interesting.
| anderspitman wrote:
| I'm convinced laptops peaked with the X220. I have one
| sitting next to me now. It's not powerful enough for a
| daily driver anymore but I'm in the process of repurposing
| it for some self-hosting.
| mrek0 wrote:
| Do you also experience significant battery drain during
| sleep? Asking since this is an issue with the T14 gen 1 with
| AMD.
| mcpherrinm wrote:
| I also have the same X13 gen2. The shipped Realtek wifi
| chipset works for me, but I needed to have a newer kernel.
| Fedora 34 was good enough.
| Darvon wrote:
| x13 amd is just about perfect. linux or ltsc both work.
| mkasberg wrote:
| You should look into a Dell Latitude. Specifically, look for one
| with Intel Graphics (for better Linux compatibility and battery
| life). I'd personally go for a 74xx model. They work great with
| Linux, in my experience. They're also business-grade, so they
| have decent longevity and repair-ability, with easy to find
| parts.
|
| https://www.mikekasberg.com/blog/2021/08/12/dell-latitudes-a...
| krnlpnc wrote:
| If choosing to run linux on a laptop the model doesn't matter
| very much. You'll spend a chunk of time solving driver issues and
| managing power consumption with virtually every laptop out there.
|
| Look at Lenovo and Dell
| pizza234 wrote:
| If you're going for small(er) brands, another entry to the list
| is the [Penguin J4](https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-
| linux/penguin-j4-gnulinux-l...), which has a replaceable battery.
|
| Speaking of big brands, the Dell XPS developer edition is on
| paper very Linux compatible, although in pratice, it's
| (insulting) marketing fluff (I've had one). I second the
| Thinkpads compatibility (I had several, I think they were T/W).
| mosselman wrote:
| A MacBook with M1 processor. Air, Pro, I don't know. Just max it
| out with RAM or storage or whatever until you reach 2000
| bdlowery wrote:
| "Battery life is important to me"
|
| You'll only find that with a MacBook. All other laptops have
| terrible battery life. But since you don't want a MacBook...
| looks like your shit out of luck.
| sergiosgc wrote:
| Sorry, but no. That is entirely false. I get 10h out of a
| Lenovo X1C, and Lenovo is not special. Good battery life is not
| yet a given in every laptop, but easy enough to find with a bit
| of care when choosing the laptop.
| bdlowery wrote:
| M1 MacBooks have better performance than the top tier X1C,
| and 2x the battery life.
|
| Seems kind of weird paying for something that is just worse.
| dsego wrote:
| Thinkpad T series maybe, I have a t480s, it's a workhorse.
| bebna wrote:
| Battery Life Lipo:
|
| - Run it in by fully charge it 2-3 times, (deplete it with normal
| use)
|
| - Normal use keep it between 20-80%, write yourself a script or
| something to stop charging manually/automatically
|
| - Deplete/fully charge it quarterly or twice a year to give the
| bms a change to balance the cells.
| pflanze wrote:
| > - Deplete/fully charge it quarterly or twice a year to give
| the bms a change to balance the cells.
|
| AFAIK it's not the balancing that needs to happen periodically,
| but the measurement of the voltage curve so that estimates are
| shown correctly. Balancing should happen all the time (and is,
| AFAIK, usually done by a low-level circuit, not a
| microprocessor) regardless of how far you charge or discharge.
| But if you know more, feel free to correct me.
| acky wrote:
| While these are good guidelines, I came to the conclusion that
| life's too short to spend so much mental energy on this. If
| your devices need to be charged - charge them. That's it,
| that's the only rule.
| JamesAdir wrote:
| Lenovo has a tool that can keep the battery at around 70%. If
| you are 80% working in the same location, then it can really
| keep your batter life longer. If you are moving all the time,
| then certainly keep it charge to 100%.
| lazzurs wrote:
| Apple has started doing this and I can't say I am
| impressed. When I unplug I expect my laptop to be at 100%
| not randomly at ~80% based on a guess as to when I might
| unplug.
| altitudinous wrote:
| Whatever laptop you already own.
| xwdv wrote:
| Thinkpad T480s. Your search is over.
| StillBored wrote:
| Lenovo, in their wisdom (penny pinching I guess), has been
| soldering either 4 or 8G of ram into the thinkpads for the last
| few years. This is one of the things that drove me away from
| them, because it seriously limits the amount of ram that can be
| installed (vs what is possible) and it messes up any kind of
| dimm striping one might want to run, as well as restricting you
| to the generally not great timings of the soldered on ram.
|
| Its irritating and destroys what might otherwise be a pretty
| desirable machine, compared with any number of less expensive
| machines that have two DIMM slots.
| xwdv wrote:
| You can still install more RAM into a T480s as there is an
| open slot.
| StillBored wrote:
| Yah, I thought that was clear. But if you get one of the
| machines with 4G soldered, your basically limited to 1/2
| the full capacity of the hardware (36G vs 64G IIRC).
|
| edit: Its actually 20-24G max according to the spec sheet,
| compared with my similar age cheepe dell which does 32G
| because it has two dimm slots so I have a pair of 16G dimms
| in it.
| xwdv wrote:
| Put a 32G dimm on an 8G and you get 40G
| StillBored wrote:
| I'm not sure that actually works on that machine, the
| intel specs list 32G max on the chips, which likely if
| its like some of their other designs caps the individual
| DIMM channel capacity. I've gone over the lenovo
| recommended RAM configs before when the intel spec
| supports it, but intel has been enforcing capacity limits
| on many of their parts (presumably in the low level
| binary firmware blobs which refuse to train DIMMs which
| otherwise might work) for the last few years.
|
| Even so, if you get it working, its the equivalent of
| 1/2ing your ram bandwidth.
|
| PS: what you probably want is a T480, same generation
| little thicker, with both ram slots, and the extended
| battery if one wants a beefier version.
| xmagee wrote:
| I currently daily-drive a Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Yoga Gen5. 4k
| touchscreen, 15in, awesome Linux support.
|
| I've tried Fedora and Ubuntu on it, but I use Arch Linux daily on
| it (EndeavorOS at the moment), and its great for web development.
|
| I think it was ~ $1600 USD when new
| JonChesterfield wrote:
| Lenovo T14s here (AMD version). Stuff works out of the box on
| Debian, except for the LTE modem which works after a bit of a
| struggle. Battery life is better under Windows but I haven't
| bothered working out why, probably need to set up some power
| management stuff. Associated dock drives three 1920x1200 screens
| at the same time as the built-in one.
| cosmiccatnap wrote:
| Fyi, they pushed a bios update that fixed my battery issues.
| It's not m1 good or anything but after the update it's average
| and sleep works correctly without draining it.
| whitefang wrote:
| Battery life is very bad here.. I've a T14
| consp wrote:
| If you have issues with sleep mode draining like crazy: Update
| the bios and enable "Linux" ACPI mode, which they claim will
| destroy windows beyond belief but I haven't noticed anything.
| Since otherwise s3 (aka deep sleep) is disabled and s2idle
| might be broken prior to the 5.15 kernel.
| geocar wrote:
| Maybe you want to consider a beefy desktop with a battery-backup
| and plugging it in someplace cold and setting up a laptop to
| remote into it. You can get a lot of bang for your buck in a
| desktop, and going lean on the laptop means you don't need to
| compromise on cpu memory or storage. They even make special video
| cards that do the remote desktop encoding (PcOIP) that are really
| quite fine for coding, but I find xpra to be just fine for me.
| sto_hristo wrote:
| I'm actually on the fence for something like this. Waiting to
| hear about cooling capabilities of the upcoming Dell XPS 15
| though.
|
| In this case, instead of laptop i'm thinking of tablet with a
| big screen instead.
| lhl wrote:
| There was a recent discussion on the StarBook:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31034024 - in the comments I
| mention a few other laptops I've been looking at that may be of
| interest as well as my own review/experience w/ a laptop w/ the
| same chassis as the KDE Slimbook 15/Tuxedo Pulse 15.
| ajb wrote:
| Tuxedo pulse15 is great.
|
| Only issue I have so far is that I have a crumb stuck under the
| shift key and haven't figured out how to get it out without
| damaging the key. It's a very flat keyboard which may not be
| for everyone.
| tsak wrote:
| Have you tried compressed air? I had a similar problem with
| an old 12" MacBook with the old super shallow keyboard and
| compressed air helped me blow crumbs out.
| _raz wrote:
| Best laptop i ever had
| lhl wrote:
| If the compressed air suggestion doesn't work, you could also
| try 90%+ isopropyl alcohol which might work to dissolve any
| bits and is electronics/keyboard safe. Otherwise, drop a line
| to Tuxedo support, I've seen XMG/Tuxedo guys be very active
| on their forums/subreddits, so I think you have a good chance
| of getting a useful response from them.
| noduerme wrote:
| This is probably an unpopular view, but I kind of use laptops as
| if they were terminals. If you want to spend $2k, I'd invest
| $1600 of that in a great desktop machine, and spend the other
| $400 on a cheap chromebook and tablets / keyboards / gizmos to
| log into it remotely.
| synergy20 wrote:
| I carry a Dell XPS1500(64GB, 2TB, 4K) that is probably 3 pounds
| to use at work and at home with external monitors, it's better
| comparing two one desktop + one low-end laptop for me.
| jnwatson wrote:
| I agree, except I haven't found a ChromeBook I've liked.
|
| For $900, you can buy an M1 MacBook Air. It is the sexiest dumb
| terminal I've ever used.
|
| I had used Linux on a laptop for about 15 years prior. It is a
| fine 90% solution.
|
| The Air is barely the same class of device: no noise, almost
| instant-on, battery lasts forever.
| lhl wrote:
| Modern Macs are fine as terminals I suppose, unless you
| travel a lot or are on metered Internet. If so, then you have
| a _lot_ of stuff to turn off. See:
|
| https://gist.github.com/mmillar-
| bolis/dcfb3d1814fb0532eb3c71...
|
| https://github.com/keithbarrett/Mac/blob/master/DisableMacSe.
| ..
|
| https://gist.github.com/b0gdanw/40d000342dd1ba4d892ad0bdf03a.
| ..
|
| I haven't used a Mac full-time for years, but the straw that
| broke the camels back for me was when I was traveling through
| multiple countries (including in New Zealand and on flights)
| and I could not get my damn Mac to stop sucking down, well,
| whatever it was doing. The number of default services running
| seems to have gotten even worse since then by the looks of
| these scripts...
| ramesh31 wrote:
| >For $900, you can buy an M1 MacBook Air. It is the sexiest
| dumb terminal I've ever used.
|
| There's something ironic and wonderful about a laptop with
| more processing power than an i7 desktop being called a dumb
| terminal.
| avel wrote:
| I was indifferent to chromebooks, until the Lenovo Ideapad
| Duet 5 (13.3"). Very cool machine.
| trenchgun wrote:
| Agreed with M1 MacBook Air.
| l30n4da5 wrote:
| i'd second this. i set up a Tailscale vpn account and now just
| RDP into my dev machine at home to do any coding on my spare
| time.
| mentos wrote:
| I went to BestBuy last month with this same idea in mind. I've
| got 4 desktop PCs under my desk I use for game dev but I'm
| curious to travel and remote desktop into them. I was on the
| fence about maybe just getting a small laptop and large
| portable monitor but eventually landed on a $329 "HP - 17.3"
| Laptop - Intel Core i3 - 8GB Memory - 256GB SSD - Natural
| Silver" that seemed to check my two boxes cheap & large screen.
|
| I haven't made the purchase yet because I'm concerned if I
| should reach for a more expensive laptop that I can do work on
| in case I'm ever unable to connect over RDP.
|
| Curious to hear if anyone else has had any success with this
| kind of setup?
| soulnothing wrote:
| The weakest link in this setup is your current internet. I've
| found while traveling, internet is generally pretty bad
| under, 10Mbs. Making this a rather difficult task. American
| view.
|
| At home, my "laptop" is a dumb terminal that docks to my desk
| monitors. But computes to servers in the closet.
|
| At my families who have (150:down/10:up)Mbs it was no
| different from being at home. I connected over wire guard. I
| even took my zoom/client calls in vms over rdp. Passing my
| webcam from my local laptop -> wire guard -> server. I also
| used parsed to stream gaming from home.
|
| Conversely, I was at an Airbnb recently with (5/0.512)Mbs
| DSL. It was a real chore. For the internet black hole, I've
| opted to go for a SFFpc instead. That can fit into checked
| baggage or carry on. Even if I can't setup a monitor and
| keyboard at the airbnb hotel. Having both off in lodging wifi
| is suitable enough.
| anoncow419 wrote:
| I went this route albeit differently. I purchased an older
| model Thinkpad T440 for about $300 off eBay a few years ago,
| and it's one of my favorite laptops to have still. 8GB of RAM,
| 4th gen mobile Intel i7, 240GB SSD. I've been using it for
| probably about 3 years now as my travel laptop.
|
| The keyboard on it is really fantastic, but the touchpad is not
| something I'm proud of.
| kellogs_aran wrote:
| Hi. OP here. I had also considered this but I don't have much
| space where I live (family etc etc). Maybe one day :)
| danans wrote:
| A "beefy" workstation these days doesn't need to take a lot
| of space. For example the Intel NUC machines are pretty
| powerful and can fit in the palm of your hand.
|
| I'm considering something like this for personal compute-
| intensive projects, or things that I want to continue running
| while my laptop is closed.
|
| If your workload is really greater than a machine like that
| can handle, you should probably be considering some kind of
| cloud based compute option.
|
| The only case I can think of where a really powerful local
| computer is required is the link stage of a huge monolithic
| binary, which by it's very nature is not parallelizable, but
| you'd never do that on the laptop anyways.
| mvanbaak wrote:
| This only works if both the desktop and the notebook are always
| online and on a good connection. For the desktop, this is
| doable (although not everywhere, first world is pretty good
| connected but besides that it can be really hard). For the
| notebook, it all depends.
| noduerme wrote:
| Fair. I locked in an good price for fiber at my house. I only
| have to worry about the quality of my connection away from
| home. That's just cost of doing business though.
| mvanbaak wrote:
| I'm a lot on boats and before covid also in planes. I would
| not be able to do my coding on my desktop at home (which,
| like yours, has a good fiber connection)
|
| Even if I wanted to, I cannot get a stable and fast enough
| connection there to work on a dump remote terminal.
| yackback wrote:
| Why does the notebook need to be in good connection? Use
| mosh.
| mvanbaak wrote:
| if all you need is shell/tui, sure. what about app
| development, web development etc?
| jenscow wrote:
| Can get a much better desktop machine at the same price, and
| upgrade/repair easier.
|
| Then a ex-corporate laptop from eBay that I'm not too worried
| about breaking/losing. Dell laptops tend to have the best
| support of Linux.
|
| I spend >80% of my time in the same place, so it makes sense
| for me. If I'm out and about, I won't be doing "full" work
| anyway.
| U1F984 wrote:
| Does anyone have a recommendation for a remote desktop software
| for Linux? Specifically one that also supports using a browser,
| video, etc. RDP (server) with proper GPU acceleration works
| great for this, but unfortunately is Windows only.
| tikkabhuna wrote:
| I agree with this. I bought a Dell XPS 15 a few years ago with
| discrete GPU with the hope of using it for dev/mild gaming. Its
| now just used for remote desktop.
|
| Horses for courses though. If I didn't have space for a desktop
| I'd be happy to have the XPS 15.
|
| Multi-monitor is my big requirement when it comes to
| development. The 15" screen is good, but it doesn't beat a
| proper side by side setup.
| dinom wrote:
| I totally agree with this too. Additionally, MrChromebox is
| doing some great work in terms of fully liberating some of
| these older machines!
| pacaro wrote:
| I also do this. I recently picked up an Acer Spin 713, which
| I'm very happy with. On the one hand it can be a terminal to a
| honking desktop machine, or something beefy in the cloud, but
| it also runs Linux just fine, so I can do a fair amount of
| local development if network access is limited or non-existent.
| freemint wrote:
| My advice is wait. There is much interesting silicon coming out
| this year. Wait till the end of the yearish and you will have
| much better options. Especially if some of your compute can
| happen on GPUs.
| camdenreslink wrote:
| I bought a Dell Latitude 7490 refurbished from the Dell Outlet a
| few years ago for < $1k and it suited my needs. I'm not sure what
| the newest Latitudes are like but the one I bought had the
| following qualities:
|
| 1. Installed Ubuntu on it, never had any driver issues 2.
| Keyboard was pretty nice 3. Screen wasn't very good, although I
| did appreciate it having a matte finish. Not in the same ballpark
| as a MacBook screen.
| seltzered_ wrote:
| see this thread from a couple days ago:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31074881 , it was also about
| desiring linux support.
| controlledchaos wrote:
| I love my Lenovo Thinkpad (X1 Carbon). From the little things
| like hardware switches for the webcam and microphone to the big
| things like the excellent keyboard feel and Linux support (I use
| Manjaro). HOWEVER, get the premium screen, because WOW the 1080p
| screen isn't great.
| lb1lf wrote:
| This.
|
| I love my current one to bits (X1c 7th gen) - almost
| weightless, sturdy, excellent battery life, excellent
| connectivity, wonderful keyboard.
|
| Oh, and the 1080 screen, which isn't great, but did help
| improve battery life significantly over the other offerings. I
| get a full work day out of mine without a charge, which is most
| useful whenever I'm in the field.
| synergy20 wrote:
| I have 4 of them for family members. Myself uses Dell XPS15
| but it's from the employer. I will get myself a Carbon X1
| more likely for personal usage.
|
| Lightweight, robust, powerful enough for development and
| daily use, we had them for a few years, no complain so far.
| agentultra wrote:
| Consider buying used/upcycled. With Linux you're in good hands:
| the older models tend to have better support.
|
| The T-series Thinkpads are excellent. They're rugged and designed
| for falls, spills, and travelling. There are still manufacturers
| producing extended battery packs and chargers for them. They're
| designed to be upgraded and modified.
|
| Bonus: you'll save some silicon from reaching a landfill for a
| few more years. And they're cheap. If one bites the dust you can
| replicate your setup to a new one and get going again without
| breaking bank for another $2k.
|
| Unless you're planning on doing bleeding-edge real-time 3D
| graphics work, the likelihood that you need a big, expensive
| machine is pretty low. Depending on the software stack you intend
| to work on you might not even need that much RAM (though if
| you're doing stuff in bleeding edge C++, Rust, or Haskell I'd
| recommend >16GB).
| exdsq wrote:
| I'd suggest relooking at Framework because I've seen so many
| positive reviews from people I respect, and it's good to support
| that project. FWIW I'd buy one myself if I needed a new laptop.
| Might not be the solution for you, but I don't think it's worth
| discounting due to 'Beta' status!
| philtar wrote:
| fsflover wrote:
| > However, I am curious about users' experiences with:
|
| >the Purism Librem 14: https://puri.sm/products/librem-14/
|
| https://forums.puri.sm/t/no-nonsense-review-from-an-actual-u...
| c2h5oh wrote:
| AMD based Lenovo (5xxx or 6xxx CPUs - best performance per watt,
| very good open source drivers) from X, T or P series. X will be
| slimmer, lighter and likely with better screen (for media
| consumption), T and P will be bulkier but have a bigger battery.
|
| Ignore MSRP on Lenovo websites: discounts ranging from 30 to 50+
| percent are active more often than not.
| dom96 wrote:
| > 2. Linux support: I use Linux as my OS of choice and I have no
| intention of using Windows/MacOS
|
| If there is any leeway here, I would seriously recommend
| switching. You cannot beat the M1 MacBooks and macOS is close
| enough to Linux anyway.
| pure_simplicity wrote:
| And with Asahi, you may not even need to compromise on the
| linux part, though it will take some time before the first
| stable release.
| [deleted]
| hanselot wrote:
| dhash wrote:
| If you call Dell, they can make you a top of the line XPS or
| Precision that comes with linux from the factory.
|
| I stick to the thin-n-light XPS 13/15/17 or the Precision 5570 or
| 5770. Rock solid build quality.
|
| Note: if you call Dell they'll give you a couple hundred bucks
| off the price on the website, and can do custom builds
| shireboy wrote:
| Unless you're training some ml models or doing heavy graphics,
| you might not need super heavy compute/gpu. If you do need, then
| remote into a desktop or vm is another option.
|
| I have for the past 5 years or so focused on battery life over
| compute for my machines and then used RDP to access a VM dev
| machine hosted in azure. It's worked great, and I was able to use
| free azure credits that came with msdn. You can do similar with
| ec2 and google compute. There are also container based dev
| environment services out there now. The benefit being you don't
| need dev cruft on your everyday carry laptop. Plus if you get a
| new laptop or have multiple, your dev environment doesn't change.
|
| That said I did just switch to an m1 max as I also need to do
| Xcode. That has been a solid machine, though might be above
| budget. You could run Linux on it pretty sure.
| Freaken wrote:
| I can vouch for the Framework. It doesn't feel beta at all. I'm
| running Xubuntu 21.10 on it an it rocks. Someone created a repo
| with salt scripts which works all the kinks of the laptop under
| Ubuntu. The only thing I needed it for was to fix the touchpad
| issue after resume from sleep (it would be at max acceleration)
| and to enable hibernate (just note that you must disable secure
| boot first). https://github.com/lightrush/framework-laptop-
| formula
| theferalrobot wrote:
| Anyone else here have the annoying hinge issue where the laptop
| screen won't stay up? I even got new hinges and the problem
| remains... maybe just bad luck. Between that and battery life
| though I would exercise some caution OP.
|
| I love the framework ethos and plan to continue supporting them
| but imo they do have kinks to work out.
| RosanaAnaDana wrote:
| How is the battery life?
| TranquilMarmot wrote:
| Battery life on my Framework on Windows is decent. I can get
| probably 5 hours out of it doing light dev work. Doesn't hold
| a candle to my work M1 Macbook's battery, but I enjoy using
| it a lot more.
| nzealand wrote:
| If you want longevity, for under $2k, you should not rule out
| the Framework because it is "beta."
|
| They have a store of easily replaceable parts. You can replace
| almost anything that breaks.
|
| I have already replaced the keyboard. Don't ask.
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| I can't vouch from personal experience but the framework is so
| good that one of my friends is just giving away his old laptop
| to me, which I think says a lot
| kryptn wrote:
| Also a fan of my Framework. Spent just about $2k on the dot
| too. Running Pop!_OS and haven't really had any issues.
|
| My work machine is a macbook pro, but I'd happily work on my
| framework instead.
| nickstinemates wrote:
| +1 for Framework laptop. On the road and typing from one now.
| mwilliamson wrote:
| I've also gotten a Framework laptop, and am happily running
| XFCE on Debian testing.
|
| One thing I'm curious about is how other people are handling
| the resolution of the screen on Linux? It doesn't seem like
| XFCE currently supports fractional scaling well, so I ended up
| defining a custom 3:2 resolution and using that to increase the
| size of everything by about 1.5x.
| k8sToGo wrote:
| Yes but Framework does not support selling to businesses yet
| and, thus, can't create an invoice. Maybe this is an important
| point to some.
| tomrod wrote:
| +1 for Framework as well. With recently launching a company, I
| have been evaluating laptop builds for my soon-to-hire
| employees. Thinkpads were at the top followed by XPS builds
| (which have been terribly variable in quality in recent year,
| unfortunately).
|
| I am now using a Framework as a daily driver w/ Fedora and it
| is wonderful! Deep sleep needs work still, but everything else
| is working great. Plus Framework works well with Windows as
| well.
| yumraj wrote:
| My current problem with framework is the small screen size. As
| someone who doesn't use an external monitor, the 13.5" screen
| is smaller than I'd like.
|
| Hopefully they'll launch a 15"-16" variant in the near future.
| qudat wrote:
| I also have a framework laptop and love it.
|
| Article I wrote about it:
| https://erock.io/2021/11/01/framework-vs-mbp.html
|
| Battery life will be an issue for OP. Also, the speakers are by
| far the worst feature.
| aquaticsunset wrote:
| +1 to the Framework as well. My only issue is the
| aforementioned sleep power draw, but they're a pretty smart
| group of folks. I'm pretty sure they'll figure this out in
| time.
| buzzert wrote:
| Highly recommend the Librem 14 personally. Pureboot, great set of
| mainline Linux drivers in PureOS, plus a very easily hackable
| firmware (I hacked mine to change the keyboard layout/behavior).
|
| The build quality is also surprisingly good, and you're
| supporting a special purpose company that fights for the user!
| Schopenhauer01 wrote:
| Get the latest thinkpad in X series or X1C. Might not be the best
| choice, but it still works. Rugged, good keyboard.
| inter_netuser wrote:
| How's the trackpad?
|
| Is good keyboard quantifiable somehow? As good as old T?
| dogman144 wrote:
| Dell XPS 13 with Ubuntu is a lower cost alternative to Purism 14
| and you get some possibly totally false mental guarantees about
| quality and linux integration via the Dell base.
|
| The touchpad, at least on my model from a few years back, was
| horribly sensitive to palm touches. There were some config
| changes I made that may or may not have done anything, and I
| don't notice it anymore but definitely type a bit differently.
|
| The other aspect is a 13'' screen is a bit small for dev work.
|
| A purism is next on my list fwiw.
| dqpb wrote:
| Refurbished Dell XPS
| AsusToss wrote:
| I'm running Archlinux on my Dell XPS 9750 and it's pretty great.
| The downside is that the onboard GPU doesn't have Linux drivers,
| but the CPU graphics work fine for what I'm doing (mostly web
| development).
| zhdc1 wrote:
| Put 350USD aside and pickup the best Lenovo T series laptop you
| can find on Ebay.
| lultimouomo wrote:
| I saved this HN comment in my favorites a week ago, has some good
| options that should be available soon:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31036929
| mr_spothawk wrote:
| This seems relevant wrt Purism 14:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/my8u2l/psa_librem_1...
| dhdhhdd wrote:
| Lenovo? T495/X1 carbon/etc.?
| pSYoniK wrote:
| Depending on where you are I would probably recommend looking at
| used Thinkpad P1/X1 Extreme. They tend to be within your budget
| if you're looking at a model from a year or two ago and they work
| very well on Ubuntu (Debian as well if you look at grabbing non-
| free drivers for whatever isn't working) and Ubuntu derivatives.
|
| While I know there are a few suggestions for gaming oriented
| laptops, but I'd suggest you are careful going down that route as
| some of the cheaper models feel very flimsy and if you end up
| working on this for longer periods of time, things such as sharp
| edges, sub-par (rattly) keyboard, bad screen or hell, even weak
| hinges, can be very frustrating. There is also the issue that
| Linux support might not be as good.
|
| I had an E460 and it worked fine for 6 years (I dropped it a few
| times and someone spilled coffee on it) but even 4-5-6 years down
| the line I could find replacement keyboard, replacement battery
| and even replacement case for it. When I gave it to be used by
| someone else, I had swapped these parts out, paid probably 60$
| for them but I knew that the laptop will keep running fine for a
| few more years. I don't think I could find replacement
| case/keyboard for some gaming laptop 6 years down the line...? Or
| maybe I could and I just haven't had the chance to look.
|
| To sum up, get an older Thinkpad or maybe even an older Dell
| Precision.
| llIIllIIllIIl wrote:
| I've got ThinkPad X1 Carbon (gen 6) since it showed up at Costco
| (2018 maybe? idk) years ago and didn't have any real issues with
| it. The only thing that is not working is a fingerprint scanning,
| but I don't care. The battery never let me down.
|
| I develop on the laptop with vscode and docker. This is intensive
| computing for me, but I don't do npm installs. Can you unpack
| what's intensive computing for you?
| OJFord wrote:
| > I looked into the Framework laptops and so far it looks like
| they are still a bit beta.
|
| I'm not sure that's fair, (and it's pedantically wrong - they're
| in production - but I know what you mean) the hardware is the
| nicest I've seen besides Macbooks (I agree with you about macOS,
| but I do like the hardware, keen for Asahi one day but that is
| very much beta ( _alpha_ actually I think)) and Linux is Linux?
| It works fine out of the box, everything 'in-tree'.
|
| Unless you just don't want to buy any company's first product of
| course, which I suppose is fair enough, but I hope (for the
| longevity of a company I like & spares/upgrades for my laptop)
| that enough people don't feel that way.
| lhl wrote:
| As of 3 days ago, from a thread started back in July 2021 (10
| months ago), suspend in Linux still doesn't work properly:
| https://community.frame.work/t/high-battery-drain-during-sus...
|
| I like the idea of Framework/what they're doing, but honestly,
| the lack of proper suspend is definitely an instant
| disqualifier, and their inability to fix it or even AFAICT
| properly acknowledge/address this after a year doesn't really
| inspire much confidence.
|
| I get that they're a smaller company, but Framework is also
| much lower on my list because they're still selling their last-
| gen Tiger Lake 11th gen laptops, when 12th gen Alder Lake is a
| big improvement, and of course, that I (and I think many
| people) would much prefer AMD Ryzen 6000 (or heck, even 5000
| series) that would give better perf/watt.
| vaylian wrote:
| I cast another vote for Framework. I understand the hesitation
| when it comes to betting on a new company, because I was also
| slightly anxious when I ordered my laptop. But now that I have
| it in my hands, I'm really happy with it. I've also done
| programming with the keyboard and it feels nice.
|
| Concerning battery life: There are various tools like TLP[1]
| that help you optimize your energy consumption without much
| configuration. I get more than 6 hours of my machine when I'm
| coding on the go. However, I only have a few terminals with Vim
| and a web browser open. Some IDEs might need more power.
|
| [1] https://linrunner.de/tlp/
| adrusi wrote:
| I made the switch back to mac after spending the last 9 years
| exclusively using linux on desktop with the release of the M1
| Pro chip. I haven't regretted it. Their new chips really are
| impressive for their combination of performance and battery
| life. Combine that with Apple long having been the only
| manufacturer to manage high display resolutions without
| compromising battery life. It's the first laptop that I'll
| leave unconnected to power even when it would be convenient to
| connect it.
|
| I'm definitely very keen to use Asahi once it's more stable and
| has support for more of the hardware though. For now I have an
| Arch Linux ARM VM that I keep running for some things (Haskell
| development on M1 is still a bit of a mess) and I can VNC into
| a Linux desktop over 2.5 gigabit LAN when I really yearn for my
| old workflows.
| resonious wrote:
| I use a Framework and it's been fantastic. Even the fingerprint
| works "out of the box" (in quotes because in Arch Linux nothing
| is really out of the box... I just had to install the right
| package). The only particularly disappointing thing is that the
| battery drains mega fast while suspended. This is something I
| might be able to tinker away, of course. And for what it's
| worth, non-functional suspend is basically par for the course
| for every _Windows_ laptop I 've ever owned.
|
| Also, I get the feeling that the Framework isn't your typical
| first product. It's built to be upgradable, so unless you find
| something fundamentally off-putting about the shape of the
| board, I'm not sure if you get much by waiting for the next
| generation. If they release a slimmer case, better keyboard,
| touch screen, or whatever, then you should be able to retrofit
| the new thing onto an old machine. Of course, the product is
| still young. Time will tell if this actually pans out.
| uberduper wrote:
| The new suspend mechanism is s0ix and it works quite well. My
| xps13 9310 (32gb version with the jank AX500) will even get
| to opportunistic s0ix with a recent 5.17 kernel.
|
| When I originally setup this laptop, I found that if I left
| the intel raid storage crap enabled, the mvd module would
| prevent s0ix/suspend. Switching to AHCI in the bios resolved
| this.
|
| https://01.org/blogs/qwang59/2018/how-achieve-s0ix-states-
| li...
| radicalbyte wrote:
| > The only particularly disappointing thing is that the
| battery drains mega fast while suspended
|
| That's a killer - it's 2022 and Apple are still the only
| company who can get that right. I'd switch over to a
| Framework in an instant (for dual-boot Linux/Windows) if they
| could fix that.
| sofixa wrote:
| Do they? With the default configuration my MBP M1 doesn't
| sleep properly ( or at all, clicking Sleep just does a
| screen flicker and nothing further, i have to disconnect
| power for it to actually go to sleep), draining the battery
| to ~10% after a weekend.
| radicalbyte wrote:
| Crazy, that's what I have always had with my windows
| laptops. My 2013 MBP 13 and M1 MBA work perfectly.
| OJFord wrote:
| I didn't mention it because I don't think it's a Framework
| issue (GP obviously doesn't have it) but rather my somehow
| messed up configuration of it, but the one problem I have
| with mine at the moment is that ten seconds or so after
| resuming (but not before) everything starts segfaulting,
| literally any command. And consequently logs don't get
| written to disk, so there's no record of it after I reboot
| it (with the physical button, necessarily) - so I'm having
| a hell of a time trying to debug it...
| resonious wrote:
| Oh wow. Indeed I haven't experienced this. How's the
| battery drain while suspended? I can't help but wonder if
| you get better suspend in exchange for...everything
| segfaulting.
| OJFord wrote:
| I haven't noticed that it's been bad, but then I've had
| more to worry about... I have the same CPU (and, I
| _thought_ the same config...) on my work laptop and no
| problem with battery drain there; I use 'hybrid-sleep'
| (suspend to swap & RAM, resume from the latter if
| possible but tolerate power loss).
|
| It sounds like you might be using 'shallow' or 's2idle'
| (suspend to idle) sleep mode? You might need to write
| 'deep' to /sys/power/mem_sleep. (But don't listen to me,
| mine segfaults!)
| xvello wrote:
| Intel has removed support for S3 sleep from their platform,
| so every laptop with 11th+ generation Intel is plagued with
| this issue. Dell even put out an advisory that a sleeping
| laptop is not safe to store in a backpack anymore!
|
| AMD still supports S3 sleep on their Ryzen processors, but
| you'll need to check user feedback to make sure that the
| vendor did their job implementing it properly. In S3 sleep,
| the UEFI/BIOS is responsible for suspending and resuming
| hardware state. If not implemented correctly, you'll have
| high battery drain (components not suspended) or bugs on
| resume. Lenovo had dropped the ball on that front
| repeatedly, with the last two gens of T14 requiring BIOS
| updates to fix issues.
| esaym wrote:
| >Intel has removed support for S3 sleep from their
| platform
|
| Wait what? How is that allowed?? What is the replacement?
| xvello wrote:
| > How is that allowed??
|
| Looks like they can get away with it -\\_O_/-
|
| > What is the replacement?
|
| S0ix sleep (named s2idle in Linux), where the OS is
| responsible for suspending / resuming all non-essential
| functions. Work is ongoing on the Kernel and drivers to
| improve it, but there is a long way to go (yay Monday
| mornings with an empty battery because the power draw is
| still > 1W).
|
| Even Windows is unable to make it correctly work without
| killing the battery overnight, so they now default to
| hibernating to disk after a couple of hours. This
| strategy is also possible with Linux, but making it work
| alongside full disk encryption is tricky:
| https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Dm-
| crypt/Swap_encryption#Wi...
| esaym wrote:
| That sounds really awful...
| lhl wrote:
| While this is true for most vendors, this is not
| universally true. Lenovo specifically has an S3 BIOS
| option for some of their Tiger Lake Thinkpads (since
| they're Linux certified), although as you mention, it
| isn't always perfect:
| https://forums.lenovo.com/topic/view/27/5089860
|
| There can be lots of EC/BIOS issues for suspending, IMO
| it's one of the best arguments for going for a Linux-
| first vendor (Tuxedo, System 76, Slimbook, etc), as you
| know that their top priority should be to get basic stuff
| working on Linux.
| entropie wrote:
| Isn't this because MS (kind of?) forcing modern sleep mode?
|
| I bought a XPS end of 2019 and had a very bad experience
| _forcing_ windows to use s3 mode. Actually I eventually
| stopped bothering with windows standby and let it suspend
| to ram now because 95% the time I use linux anyways and
| there s3 works fine.
|
| I was several times greeted with a very hot notebook at the
| morning, because windows decided to boot up and do system
| updates during the night while the notebook was supposed to
| sleep.
| lexicality wrote:
| > The only particularly disappointing thing is that the
| battery drains mega fast while suspended
|
| Not particularly helpful to you necessarily, but I was able
| to solve the battery drain on windows by tweaking the deep
| sleep and hibernation settings and I'm now reasonably
| confident that if I close the lid on the laptop for the night
| it'll have a similar level of battery left when I open it in
| the morning.
|
| I think everything defaults to intel's "not actually sleep"
| sleep mode which destroys the battery like nobody's business
| Freaken wrote:
| Just make it hibernate after X time (2 hours for me). There a
| repo of scripts on github
| (https://github.com/lightrush/framework-laptop-formula) where
| you might find information on how to do it. I'm sure it's not
| a 1 to 1 port to Arch, but it might get you started. Just
| note I had to disable secure boot for hibernate to work.
| kache_ wrote:
| lenovo. slap linux on it
| hedora wrote:
| If you care most about battery life, aesthetics and keyboard,
| then the pinebook pro is a great choice. You can spend the $1800
| you save on cloud VMs or a kick-ass desktop.
|
| Cons:
|
| The touchpad is acceptible, but middling. (I am a stickler for
| touchpads.)
|
| The battery drains in suspend mode out of the box. Supposedly,
| there are fixes, but people have mixed reports of their
| stability.
|
| You'll want a separate device for music streaming and zoom.
|
| Anyway, I have one, and it is perfect for my use cases.
| a3w wrote:
| In europe, you can use a site that offers a comparison across all
| vendors, with actual market prices.
|
| https://skinflint.co.uk/?cat=nb&asuch=&bpmin=&bpmax=1533&v=k...
|
| Next step would be to add technical specifications, perhaps limit
| the list to vendors with generally well linux support, or set the
| OS to no-os/FreeDOS/Linux-preinstalled.
|
| Is something like that available for north america, since the
| request was in dollars?
| satysin wrote:
| I used a Dell Precision running Linux and it was a very good
| experience with a lot of power. It is essentially an XPS 15 but
| you can opt-out of the dGPU and just have Intel Xe graphics which
| makes life easier with Linux if you don't need a high-end GPU.
|
| 15", good keyboard and trackpad, amazing screen (get the 4k
| option and scale at 200% so you have a 1080p look and feel but
| super crisp), decent sound, powerful CPU, lots of RAM, M.2 PCIe
| SSD, etc. Although if you _really_ want to get better battery opt
| for the 1080p screen which is still great.
|
| Battery life with Linux on any laptop is kinda rough no matter
| what in my experience, it's okay but not MacBook Pro with M1
| levels. Also the fans get kinda loud which you may or may not
| mind but is kinda par for the course with most Intel laptops as
| they're all a few mm too thin imho.
|
| As for why Dell? Well personally I have always had superb
| experience with Dell support. Engineer on site a day or two later
| to fix any issues and when I needed a replacement they sorted it
| within a few days and let me send the old machine back a week
| later so I could backup and restore without a huge hassle.
|
| I know others have had bad experience with Dell support but for
| me (in Europe) it has always been fine.
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| I highly recommend you just start buying laptops (plural),
| install different Linux distros on them, see how they work,
| return them if they have issues. There's just too many weird
| combinations of chipsets and hardware configurations and power
| profiles etc etc. You will spend all of your time looking for
| "good hardware for a good price" and end up with crap Linux
| support.
| Bancakes wrote:
| Any device that can build its own kernel is a good SWE device.
|
| However, I'd recommend a DELL or Samsung with a high-res OLED
| display. Those are gorgeous and have great color and luminance
| contrast for text.
| derbOac wrote:
| I'm in a similar boat and the ones you're mentioning are all ones
| I've considered, along with some in the comments.
|
| Just to throw one more out I haven't seen mentioned is Razer. I
| haven't purchased one but have played around with them in person.
|
| The Razer Blade laptops in particular seem really nice to me,
| with nice build, screen and very nice touchpad, in a good form
| factor and nice specs. The MacBook Pro is maybe the closest thing
| I've seen to them. There's apparently a version of a Razer
| released by second company with linux on it (blessed by Razer),
| targeted at development, although the "regular" Razer laptops can
| be had for much less cost, more in your range. I used to think of
| Razer laptop as a "desktop gaming alternative" but some of the
| newer ones seem like they could be used for development. I've
| seen the Blades in AMD and Intel form.
| drusepth wrote:
| Would definitely second Razer. The build quality and touchpad
| are the best I've ever used and the only real downside is the
| price. But if it's in the budget, I'd definitely recommend.
| staticelf wrote:
| I bought an HP zbook studio g8 and I am running ubuntu on it. It
| worked pretty good when I first installed it but some things
| weren't working correctly like the hdmi output and the sd card
| reader.
|
| Then I disabled secure boot and now everything I have tested
| works out of the box.
|
| I am running the latest edition of Ubuntu Desktop. I usually try
| to avoid HP but the new ZBook line works perfectly on linux with
| good support. Altough it uses Nvidia which is kind of cranky with
| the drivers and I also think the battery drain is a bit too heavy
| on linux.
|
| I am happy with it tho. I got a great keyboard, trackpad, screen
| and is plenty fast for me and my use case. I think I got it for
| around the price you wanted it and I even think they ship Ubuntu
| pre-installed in the US.
| pflanze wrote:
| > maintaining battery life
|
| Using less battery power:
|
| - use `powertop` to find processes that are sucking power
|
| - stop browsers when not in use (e.g. `killall -STOP firefox-
| esr`, then same with -CONT when using them again, although
| Firefox tends to first spin 100% for a little while then;
| alternatively simply `killall firefox-esr`, Firefox will
| _usually_ re-open the tabs)
|
| - I use hibernate
|
| Retaining battery life over the years:
|
| - AFAIK Li-ion batteries last longest when kept cool, and when
| kept in the 30%..70% charged range most of the time; there used
| to be ways to tell ThinkPads to stop charging when reaching 70%,
| I've never used that though.
|
| - I'm still hoping LiFePO4 (LFP) batteries will be sold for
| laptops some day, they would last much longer (but I guess when
| it happens, most third-party ones will be fakes (re-labelled Li-
| ion)...)
| aristofun wrote:
| Speaking of longevity, given the performance of m1 and absence of
| any moving parts except keyboard -- go with Macbook Air M1 and
| just run Ubuntu there.
|
| Would be still more performant than most of intel laptops in
| 2000$ range.
| tzs wrote:
| I have some concerns about longevity of many of the current M1
| machines. Yes, they have no moving parts other than keyboards
| (and fans in some models) which would be covered by AppleCare+
| [1] so it would seem that you could keep on going a long time.
|
| However, one of the non-moving parts does wear out: the SSD. It
| is not clear to me from the AppleCare+ TOS if an SSD failing
| due to reaching its write limits would be covered. The TOS says
| it does not cover wear and tear, but I'm not sure if SSD wear
| falls under that or not.
|
| I like to keep computers a long time. I kept my 2008 Mac Pro
| until 2017, and only switched then because something I needed
| required the latest MacOS and 2017 was the year when the 2008
| Mac Pro stopped getting the new major MacOS releases. I'm now
| only considering replacing the 2017 iMac i got then because the
| display has developed a vertical line of bad pixels. If not for
| that I'd be staying on it for another few years at least.
|
| The SSD in my iMac is still around 98% after over 4 years and
| so seems like wear won't be a problem, and it is replaceable
| with some difficulty (OWC calls it an "advanced" repair and
| suggests having a pro do it).
|
| But I've got 64 GB in the iMac. I don't think I've ever seen it
| touch the SSD for swap/paging [2]. I'm worried that on many of
| the M1 Macs that would not be the case. All of them except the
| Studio and the 14/16" MacBook Pros top out at 16 MB, and I've
| noticed on my iMac that I'm usually using between 16 GB and 28
| GB.
|
| I've watched quite a few reviews on YouTube of people testing
| the M1 machines under heavy load in quite a few different
| configurations, and one thing that has stood out is that there
| is surprising little performance difference in a lot of these
| tests between maxed out memory and minimal memory
| configurations. These tests do show significant swap usage on
| the low memory machines.
|
| Similar thing in a lot of the comments on HN from developers
| using M1. Great performance with a lot less memory than I
| expect a machine used for heavy development to need.
|
| I think what is going on is that there is so much bandwidth to
| internal SSDs now that on recent machines if you are hitting
| swap for task switching the I/O is so fast that it won't
| noticeably limit performance. It would only be when you are
| dealing with data structures big enough that you need to hit
| swap during random data structure access in a single task that
| you'd start really noticing a slowdown.
|
| My concern then is that with the M1 Macs that have 16 GB or
| less RAM they may be making enough use of swap that they won't
| work out when it comes to longevity. Most people's needs grow
| over time as software becomes ever more bloated, so I'm worried
| that even if they aren't touching swap much now they will be in
| 3 or 4 years.
|
| [1] In case anyone else missed this a year or so ago like I
| did, Apple changed the way AppleCare works. It used to be a one
| time purchase that extended your warranty to 3 years and then
| ended. They changed it so that you can buy it as an annual
| subscription that you can keep renewing indefinitely.
|
| [2] Hah! In the middle of typing this post, my swap usage went
| to 99.0 MB. Kind of weird. I didn't manage to get any swap
| usage when I purposefully tried doing several large things
| trying to see how much memory I actually needed, and now I'm
| just sitting here with everything idle except the browser and I
| get swap.
| daenney wrote:
| > go with Macbook Air M1 and just run Ubuntu there.
|
| You can't really do that, yet. Asahi is making good strides so
| that you can run Linux on the M1, but it's not there yet for a
| daily driver.
| erwincoumans wrote:
| You can run Ubuntu under Parallels on Mac M1. It works well
| for us.
| havocsupreme wrote:
| I know you said you dont want mac, but I recommend apple only for
| the hardware. If you want linux, you can use Asahi Linux. Its in
| the beta stages but it allows your to harness mac's superior
| hardware to develop on Linux. Apple is proven to make long
| lasting products that meet all the requirements you've list.
| Recommend M1 in particular, better than most intel and ARM
| laptops of its generation.
|
| https://github.com/AsahiLinux/m1n1
| AlexCoventry wrote:
| n-gate, can you please start writing again?
| mise_en_place wrote:
| I'd say get an M1 mbp and use the shell script to install Asahi
| Linux on it.
| 2143 wrote:
| Since you were seeking laptops I imagine you're fine with the
| computing power laptops usually offer.
|
| I recently purchased a ThinkPad E14 gen 3.
|
| It has a 6 core 12 thread Ryzen 5 5600U, with 24 GB of memory (8
| GB soldered + 16 GB I installed later).
|
| I run Linux exclusively. No Windows or dual boot or anything like
| that.
|
| I currently run the latest Fedora 36 Beta. On this particular OS
| I have none of the usual Linux problems.
|
| - Wifi works on both 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz.
|
| - Bluetooth works seamlessly. Picks up my wireless mouse and
| headphones right after boot/wakeup. Couldn't say the same about
| my older Linux laptops.
|
| - Sleep/suspend/wakeup etc works.
|
| - Camera works. Btw it has a shutter.
|
| - Screen resolution is full HD.
|
| - Battery life of about 6 to 7 hours on moderate usage. I think
| you might be able to customise your order with a bigger battery
| and faster charger.
|
| What doesn't work: - Fingerprint sensor
|
| Note that I did not have to do any workarounds on my machine with
| Fedora 36 Beta. YMMV.
|
| Some general thoughts on the ThinkPad E14:
|
| - Material quality of the E series is definitely not as great as
| the T, P, and X series of ThinkPad. But then again, it was much
| much cheaper, and I think the quality is okay for the price.
|
| - You can upgrade memory, storage, and a few other things by
| opening up the bottom panel.
|
| - Keyboard is great. Trackpad isn't as good as the ones on the
| Mac. I personally like the 3 physical buttons above the trackpad.
|
| - Choose your display wisely. There are TN displays as well as
| better quality displays.
|
| ------
|
| My friend has the same laptop, except it's on Ryzen 3, memory is
| only 8 GB, and Ubuntu 20.04 LTS. On his machine, there are the
| following two problems:
|
| - Display always goes to full brightness on boot.
|
| - Memory shows only 6.2 GB (usually it shows 7.7 on other Ubuntu
| laptops with 8 gb; on my Fedora it shows the full 24 GB).
|
| However, these are OS specific problems and workarounds exist.
| Also, I'm hoping things would be sorted out in the newer versions
| of the Linux kernel.
| xbar wrote:
| Sidebar: do you have an opinion about which ThinkPad series
| currently has the best material quality, disregarding weight as
| a factor of such quality?
| 2143 wrote:
| I haven't used it extensively, but the X1 carbon impressed
| me.
|
| Where I live the X1 carbon is crazy expensive though -- even
| more expensive than well spruced Macbooks.
|
| The newer M1 Macbooks have impressed me. Though I love Linux,
| I don't do anything that can only be done on Linux. Hence I
| hesitate to spend more than a Macbook money on a ThinkPad.
| rla3rd wrote:
| You can pick up a Lenovo P1 Gen 2 with decent specs for about
| 1000 to 1500 on ebay. Max ram is 64MB and usually comes with an
| i7. The battery life isnt great if it has a built in Nvidia
| quadro card, I get about 4 hours. I bought it to be able to do ML
| with it. My only regret is getting one with the nvidia card built
| in. I believe it gets about 8 hours without it. I ended up buying
| a RTX 3080 Aorus Gaming Box to do ML instead via the laptops
| thunderbolt port. No matter what you get, if you want to do ML on
| it. I highly suggest just getting a laptop with at least a
| thunderbolt 3 port, and just skip on having an nvidia card built
| in.
| StillBored wrote:
| Yah, unless you absolutely need the discreet GPU, avoid it like
| the plague on the P1s. Mine cannot be fully disabled in the
| BIOS/etc, and its required to drive external displays. With
| Linux its hit/miss whether the machine works properly with any
| given linux distro nouveau vs the proprietary driver setup.
|
| I'm in the situation where neither driver works 100%, and I
| just wish the laptop was wired correctly to just use the
| integrated GPU for everything like my older thinkpad. (AKA
| nouveau suspends/resumes properly, but can't seem to drive my
| monitors consistently, while the nvidia driver refuses to
| resume properly and breaks secure boot, etc).
| anotherhue wrote:
| A thousand dollar second hand thinkpad now (t or x1) and another
| thousand dollar one in two years.
| JabavuAdams wrote:
| ** "I don't want to use a Mac" **
|
| "I've had these problems with Mac"
|
| Reasonable response: Cool, use what works for you. EDIT> Here are
| some suggestions that match your constraints.
|
| Annoying response 1: You should reconsider because Mac works
| great for me.
|
| Annoying response 2: Your problems aren't real problems.
|
| Annoying response 3: Let's live debug your problems in this
| thread to see if they're real problems.
|
| Guys. I mean. Seriously.
| rmbyrro wrote:
| Why Mac seems to attract so fanatic behavior?
|
| They seem to want to push everyone to use Mac, like religious
| fanatics try to push everyone to their "truth".
|
| I think this is a result of some marketing tactics Apple
| employed for decades, and it only pushes me away from this
| brand.
| factorialboy wrote:
| It's part guilt. Doubting your expensive purchase, thus
| reinforcing it with this behavior. Apt comparison with
| religion, especially with recent converts.
|
| That's not to say all Apple products are bad.
| gzer0 wrote:
| > Doubting your expensive purchase
|
| Except, there is not a single Windows/Intel based laptop
| that can offer the same performance as say, for example, an
| M1 Macbook air ($750).
|
| There really is no comparison and there is nothing that
| comes close on the Windows side at that price point. If
| there is, please link me because I would love to know.
|
| M1 has made Macbooks not only superior in performance, but
| also more economically viable than Windows.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| To provide a counter argument, the base spec M1 MacBook
| Air is 1130 Euros on Apple EU website, not $750, and
| that's with a pitiful 8Gigs of RAM and 256Gig SSD which,
| IMHO that SSD space is what phones come equipped with
| these days, and too low for a dev machine/daily driver
| computer, without needing to ductape a slower external
| USB SSD to your laptop, and 8Gigs of RAM is too low for
| the year 2022 + futureproofing a couple of years into the
| future (I had that amount of RAM on a PC from 2009).
|
| Instead, I got a Ryzen 5800U based 13" machine for 780
| Euros which came with a much more spacious 1TB NVME and
| 16Gigs of RAM for that added piece of mind when spinning
| up some VMs. That's much better value for me for a
| workhorse, plus it runs any linux flavor natively. The
| equivalently specked M1 Air would be 1820 Euros.
|
| And best of all, the screen hinge rotates full 180
| degrees, which for me was a must vs the screen on the
| Macbook and most other laptops that for some reason stick
| to 110 degrees and limits the positions I can use it
| from.
|
| Sure, the Ryzen 5800U won't reach the same Geekbench
| scores as the M1, but the performance still puts it in
| the top percentile of CPUs on the market right now
| including the M1, and plus, CPU cycles are infinite while
| RAM and storage are finite.
|
| As an added bonus I can also play nearly any game on
| Steam on it despite the device being barely thicker than
| the Type-C port.
|
| Different strokes for different folks.
| monkmartinez wrote:
| Fair point. You would need to spend quite a bit more on a
| comparable PC if buying new. However, the breath of
| applications and interchangeability of the PC may render
| the price point moot.
|
| For example, I just changed the notebook graphics card on
| a refurbished HP ZBook... I paid $275 for a Gen 3 and
| upgraded the Graphics card for another $350. It was a lot
| easier than I thought and this computer is a beast.
| okasaki wrote:
| M1 Macbook air comes with 8gb soldered memory. In the UK
| that's 899gbp.
|
| If you want 16gb memory you're paying at least 1700gbp.
|
| If you want 32gb, it's 2999gbp.
|
| Most Windows laptops have upgradable memory and you can
| buy yourself 32gb ram for ~100gbp.
| fauigerzigerk wrote:
| _> M1 Macbook air comes with 8gb soldered memory. In the
| UK that's 899gbp. If you want 16gb memory you're paying
| at least 1700gbp_
|
| A Macbook Air with 16GB memory and 256GB SSD is PS1,199
| including 20% VAT in the UK.
| okasaki wrote:
| You might be right. The only shop I looked at was John
| Lewis.
| [deleted]
| teg4n_ wrote:
| Nah. I get to choose a dev machine for work and I still
| choose a mac. It's free to me so no doubts there!
| zelphirkalt wrote:
| I guess it is, because of the lock-in factor of all things
| Apple. People like some part of the products, but other parts
| suck, like having to carry around silly adapters for stuff.
| Maybe it is some subconscious kind of thing: "If everyone was
| using what I am using, I would have no issues with having to
| bring adapters."
|
| A bit like a snowball scheme, where you try to get more and
| more people to buy in and commit to it. Then they will be
| your cool Apple friends and you can exchange with them
| without problems.
|
| Ultimately the lock-in of that whole ecosystem pushes people
| away from it though. Most knowledgeable people, who can avoid
| it will avoid it, because they do not want non-standard
| hardware, missing ports, 400EUR monitor stands and stuff like
| that.
| na85 wrote:
| Eh, I think the adaptor thing is overblown.
|
| I use one at my desk because I want Ethernet and I use an
| external monitor, but when I take my laptop on the go I
| never bring dongles because I truthfully don't need them.
| thawaya3113 wrote:
| Another part of it is that people have spent so much money
| buying into the Mac eco system and they find that its not the
| heavenly like existence they were led to believe it would be.
|
| So they need external validation for their choice, which they
| get by seeing everyone else switching to the Mac ecosystem as
| well.
| 0n34n7 wrote:
| > Why Mac seems to attract so fanatic behavior?
|
| Ever think it's simply because they are amazing machines
| instead of being some conspiracy or mass brainwashing?
| anta40 wrote:
| Amazing machines? I haven't tried extensively the M1, so my
| experience is still limited to the Intel Macs.
|
| They are OK. Not jaw droppingly good, just okay-ish. I work
| as a mobile app dev and unfortunately you can't avoid Mac
| for iOS dev :p
| sarks_nz wrote:
| Long time laptop user. 2012 macbooks were solid. Just
| worked, never thought about them much.
|
| The 2017-18 macbook pros (touchbar) were complete
| rubbish. Everything was rubbish. Keyboards. Heat.
| Battery. Processors.
|
| The M1s are gods gift to developers. By far the best
| laptop I've used, and I don't see how anyone else can
| catch up
| nicoburns wrote:
| The new M1 Mac's really are impressive. I suspect I might
| be similarly impressed by the latest AMD chips with 8
| cores, but quite a lot of my everyday workloads are
| seeing 5x-10x performance increases over my previous 2015
| MacBook.
| swah wrote:
| Even the cheapest M1s?
| jjcm wrote:
| Have the cheapest M1. It flies and the battery life is
| stellar. The only downside I would say is it's only 8GB
| of RAM. If you're doing anything with electron
| development, it's a no-go. You'll need a minimum of 16GB.
|
| It's an incredible machine though. The perf and battery
| life remind me of the upgrade I got when switching from a
| HDD to a SSD for the first time. It changes how I use the
| device.
| nicoburns wrote:
| I have the M1 Pro with (8 + 2) cores. But seeing as the
| cores are identical I suspect with the base models with
| (4 + 4) cores you'd see very similar performance except
| you'd be looking at 5x rather than 10x on multicore
| workloads.
| jasoneckert wrote:
| Apple has always perpetuated a Cult of Mac since the Apple II
| days. I believe this is tactical from a marketing standpoint.
|
| Here is a detailed blog on it:
| https://jasoneckert.github.io/myblog/cult-of-mac/
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| They definitely market the "brand" leading to quasi-religious
| fervour.
|
| Of course, there's religious devotees to all 3. I throw my
| lot in with the Linux crowd because of freedom: freedom to
| use the software and not give a fuck about anyone's
| philosophy or religiousity. And the knowledge that it'll
| always be open source, I'll always "own" my software, etc...
| aenis wrote:
| "I throw my lot in with the Linux crowd because of freedom:
| freedom to use the software and not give a fuck about
| anyone's philosophy or religiousity. "
|
| I am not sure if you really are expected to give a fck
| about those things when using _any_ of the major OSes.
| MacOS does not require you to swear allegiance to the cause
| of gender equality, even if the company behind it does
| indeed favour it.
|
| Now if you want to _participate_ in developing free
| software, for good or bad, those things are no longer
| immaterial, and if you have unpopular ideas about religion
| or philosophy you will sooner or later be ostracised and
| some hip code of conduct thingy will be the last thing you
| will see there.
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| > MacOS does not require you to swear allegiance
|
| No but the company follows a certain direction and you
| need to buy-in to their idea of the future if you want
| the seamless experience they promise. For the full Apple
| "experience" you need multiple Apple devices, an Apple
| ID, etc...
|
| Windows is slightly more open but similar; you need to
| buy-in to their ecosystem.
|
| With Linux I can use Gnome, KDE or other... A bunch of
| distros. A bunch of browsers (without ads, annoyance,
| etc...). Anything that's an open standard basically
| works. There is maybe slight buy-in needed to work with
| my Chromecast (need Chrome on it) but that's an okay
| compromise.
|
| > Now if you want to participate in developing free
| software, for good or bad, those things are no longer
| immaterial, and if you have unpopular ideas about
| religion or philosophy you will sooner or later be
| ostracised and some hip code of conduct thingy will be
| the last thing you will see there.
|
| You can develop free software and ignore those things.
| Just work on your own thing. But you seem to mean
| "participate in existing project with existing
| organization" which is different than your first
| fragment.
| SxC97 wrote:
| Have you not noticed the rabid Linux fan base on HN?
|
| It seems like every discussion about Macs or macOS has at
| least 2-3 comments about how someone had used macOS for
| years, then got sick of apples (intel) hardware or lack of
| software customizability and switched to a Linux machine
| running Debian/Fedora/Ubuntu/Manjaro and they are _never_
| looking back (except for commenting on every Mac related post
| on HN).
|
| The only reason we don't see many Windows fanatics on here is
| because the user base is more dev focused here and most
| people prefer *NIX based machines. If this was a gaming
| focused forum, you would see a lot more Windows fanaticism.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| > If this was a gaming focused forum, you would see a lot
| more Windows fanaticism.
|
| Eh. Gaming forums are full of complaints about windows and
| what a pain in the ass it is. Old games break, new games
| break, drivers break, malware concerns, bloated device
| drivers (glaring at you, Razer) and gamers don't like all
| the bloatware and analytics crap.
|
| The reason you don't see Windows fanatics on here is
| because so many people hate dealing with it.
|
| People seem genuinely excited that Steam is pushing more
| games to Linux.
| uuyi wrote:
| It's not fanaticism really. A lot of us find it's the only
| computer that actually does a half decent job of trying to
| work properly and doesn't kick you in the balls. Well it does
| but rarely.
|
| Honestly I'd rather be using Windows on a ThinkPad. I really
| really like windows, PuTTY, MS office etc and I even like
| spending time in Visual Studio. But the hardware quality has
| declined to near zero in the PC market and lets not even get
| into a discussion about the shit show that windows and the
| dev story on it has become in the last few years.
|
| Please don't suggest WSL either. I have no energy for that
| and its associated problems.
|
| Really it comes down to the least stinky turd. I wish one of
| the big vendors (MS / Apple / Linux Vendor X) would really
| try and concentrate on making the best user-centric
| experience because at the moment they're all failing. Apple
| is just failing less hard and when time is money, I'm just
| having to pay through the nose for a little bit of edge.
| sandGorgon wrote:
| i would really recommend to try out wsl2. its become
| massively fantastic. you should try it if you havent.
|
| Thinkpad with Windows 11 and WSL2 is mindblowing
| uuyi wrote:
| That's the WSL I'm complaining about. Got VPN routing
| issues and background process problems. Plus the hyper-v
| vswitch keeps killing my networks. It's not a real Linux.
| I'm done.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| > result of some marketing tactics Apple employed for decades
|
| Or perhaps people really like macOS and their value system is
| different. I don't think a lot of developers are buying macs
| due to marketing.
|
| Also, Linux attracts the same fanatic behavior. If you like
| linux, you don't notice see how many people are pushing it.
| If you like macOS, you're more likely to notice the people
| pushing linux because you disagree with them. (And notice the
| macOS crowd less.)
| adra wrote:
| I'd say that's just wrong. Linux is great and certainly my
| favorite OS to do real work, but few would consider the IS
| above reproach. There's always something that could be
| better. The dogma in Linux is usually around how free
| something is, not the smug sense of "our thing is the best
| and dismiss the rest", which seems rife with apple fans as
| a category.
| emptyfile wrote:
| >I don't think a lot of developers are buying macs due to
| marketing.
|
| I've never seen a developer with a macbook in my country.
| The idea sounds absurd.
|
| Unless you need Final Cut or whatever, Apple is considered
| a status brand in many parts of the world.
| macintux wrote:
| > I've never seen a developer with a macbook in my
| country.
|
| In the U.S., at least, whenever I see photos from
| development conferences (which, admittedly, has been a
| few years) at least half of all open laptops would be
| Apples.
| thow-58d4e8b wrote:
| My past three workplaces let me choose between a high-end
| Windows laptop, or a Macbook. I always opted for Windows,
| due to some tooling I'm used to, but ended up regretting
| it on every occasion
|
| The problems with non-Apple laptops are manifold.
| Surprisingly, there's very little practical difference
| between $1k and $4k laptop. System integrators don't
| spend their budget wisely - they cheap out on some parts,
| while overspending on other parts purely to drive
| benchmark numbers, without affecting overall user
| experience in meaningful ways. Windows laptops get about
| half the battery life of Macbooks at comparable prices,
| and Linux is even worse than that. Every Windows laptop
| I've ever had experienced some problems with drivers
| after Windows updates (usually Wifi, Bluetooth, webcam or
| audio) - Linux is even worse. Issues with sleeping,
| hibernating, or waking up for no discernible reason.
| Intel Turbo/SpeedStep screwing up thermals and battery
| life. And more
|
| As much as I dislike Apple, when it comes to laptops, the
| competition is woefully behind
| Delk wrote:
| As much as I kind of hate beating a dead horse, the
| driver and power issues on Linux are very much a matter
| of hardware choice.
|
| I suspend and hibernate my ThinkPad constantly, from once
| to several times a day, with no concerns. My uptimes are
| usually limited by wanting to have a kernel (or some
| other low-level) update actually take effect once in a
| while.
|
| My OS install is old enough that I can't actually
| remember what kinds of tweaks I may have made power-wise
| apart from installing TLP, but I get comparable battery
| life on Linux and Windows. I don't think I'm _that_ far
| from stock configuration. It used to be worse -- my
| current OS install was originally on a different laptop
| -- and battery life was perhaps ~20-25% worse on Linux
| than on Windows, but I don 't see much of a difference
| nowadays. Intel CPU power states are managed by the CPU
| itself nowadays anyway.
|
| If there is a difference, it's usually because sometimes
| script-heavy web pages left open on the background seem
| to cause Firefox to keep hogging more CPU time on Linux
| than on Windows.
|
| Sure, hardware choices will be limited. You do have to be
| selective, and the realistic hardware options may or may
| not satisfy you, so it's entirely reasonable if e.g. an
| Apple combination of hardware and software turns out to
| be more attractive.
|
| Not everything is perfect, of course, but it does sound
| baffling to hear that "Linux" has these constant issues
| that I haven't experienced in years in daily use. It's
| true that you have to pick your hardware, and there's
| probably still a higher chance of hardware compatibility
| issues if you haven't paid anybody to make sure the
| combination works, but in my experience, those
| stereotypical issues are pretty far from being a
| universal truth.
| aunty_helen wrote:
| Server side dev here, I use mac. I picked up using mac
| when I was working in a company making hf forex systems
| where everyone used a mac.
|
| Why? Because Linux desktop is garbage (I daily one now
| too) and gets in the way. Mac you can do anything you
| need to do in Linux, open terminal nooo problems buddy.
| brew install whatever you want then switch to a nice
| interface with a good touchpad that you don't have to
| half compile yourself.
|
| So after going it alone why did I shell out a stupid
| amount of money to continue using a mac when my company
| wasn't providing one? Because now my livelyhood depends
| on my laptop. I don't want things getting in the way, I
| don't want things breaking or having to boot into a
| virtual machine to get something done.
|
| When there's $s involved it's a different caluclation.
| Total income = hours worked - purchase cost of laptop -
| hours fluffing around with my dev environment
|
| Therefore, if my linux laptop was to die (like one of my
| dev's linux laptops did on Monday night) and then I was
| to miss a day of work, I could afford the difference
| between a linux craptop and a mac in lost productivity.
|
| As for poor countries not using the best tools, I would
| say this is systemic. People in Colombia don't appreciate
| it, you see very few of the locals here using macbooks.
| But their time is also billed a lot lower.
|
| A Swiss guy one told me that "the right tool is half the
| job", as much as the Colombians idolise the Germans and
| Swiss, they've still got a lot to learn.
| sfhdfhsdsdfh wrote:
| > Therefore, if my linux laptop was to die (like one of
| my dev's linux laptops did on Monday night) and then I
| was to miss a day of work, I could afford the difference
| between a linux craptop and a mac in lost productivity.
|
| As a Linux laptop user with an overbearing asshat of a
| boss, I fucking _love_ this misconception. Getting my
| working environment set back up after a fresh install is
| a git clone and 2 minute Ansible run (the majority of the
| time is spent on packages downloading).
|
| Fortunately, however, if I want to ditch my boss for the
| day, I can blame Linux. Don't wanna be on video for that
| call? Sorry, Linux. Don't wanna attend the call at all?
| Sorry, Linux must have $(bofh excuse).
|
| I'd have absolutely zero motivation to do this if it
| weren't for my boss blaming everything on Linux out of
| the gate, but hey, if that's what he wants to do, I'm
| gonna lean the fuck into it.
| tpush wrote:
| > I've never seen a developer with a macbook in my
| country. The idea sounds absurd.
|
| What country is that?
| nicoburns wrote:
| Anyone targeting iOS absolutely has to use macs. And a
| lot of agencies have some developers who target iOS and
| just standardise on everyone running macs to simplify
| their IT.
| hexo wrote:
| In where I live there's a ton of devs using macs. The
| idea sounds absurd, too. Even more absurd when you
| realize they're mostly developing stuff that will
| ultimately run on Linux.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| All things being equal, yes it is absurd. In many
| countries were Macs aren't affordable, the amount of
| absurdity greatly increases.
|
| In places where they are largely affordable for a
| developer, absurdity becomes relative to what you value
| in a development system.
| flawi wrote:
| Working for a pretty big corporation (20000ish
| employees), the reason for this I hear from our
| IT/Workplace Services team is that Apple laptops actually
| integrate with the existing Windows-centric IT infra
| reasonably well with regards to account management, hdd
| encryption, endpoint protection, etc. This is not true
| for really any flavor of Linux, or so I'm told. So it's
| either a HP ZBook or a Macbook, and a big chunk of our
| devs go with the Macbook when those are the choices.
| Delk wrote:
| Things like Office 365 are also still pretty much a hard
| requirement at lots of offices. More enterprisey projects
| can definitely require working with all kinds of
| moderately complex technical or non-technical documents
| in Word or Excel.
|
| It may be possible to get it running on Wine or CrossOver
| Office, of course, but most generic Windows-centric
| corporations probably aren't going to buy Crossover, and
| "I can't send you a commented version of this document by
| today because I'm having a random compatibility issue
| with this non-commercial software combination that other
| Normal People don't need" isn't going to make you
| popular.
| jerlam wrote:
| I worked for BigCorp (not FAANG), and developers chose
| Macs for exactly the opposite reason - they did not
| integrate into BigCorp's dysfunctional IT infrastructure
| because they were too new.
|
| Over the years, BigCorp IT had deployed increasing
| amounts of corporate malware for various reasons. Users
| would be regularly treated to dialogs from various IT
| departments (accounting, security, inventory, licensing)
| demanding that they verify their employee number, job
| code, physical location, etc; security agents that
| scanned all disk activity and network traffic; inventory
| agents that make sure all software was properly licensed;
| and arbitrary software installations and upgrades that IT
| incorrectly believed everyone in the company needed.
|
| With a Mac, none of these agents existed, so you didn't
| have to deal with your computer actively working against
| you. With newer forms of enterprise management, this
| overhead should be reduced on both Windows and Macs, but
| due to inertia all those agents will continue to be
| installed on Windows long after they are needed.
| veb wrote:
| I was so against Macs when I was younger. I'd only used
| Windows and FreeBSD for most of my teen years. So when I
| was 19, and went to Singapore to work... they used iMacs.
| I'm all like "ew" but my boss told me once I got used to
| it, I probably wouldn't wanna go back. He was right. I
| even bought the iMac home to NZ with me as my carry on
| luggage (those white iMacs) heh.
|
| Though, for the very first time in a long time I had a
| job with a windows laptop early last year for about 6
| months. Holy shit it was a nightmare - if it'd just been
| Windows, I'd have been fine, but every day there was some
| new bullshit IT had implemented. I spent so much time
| fighting that thing, or just being completely lost. The
| network even had its own MITM thing going on which really
| messed with vscode (thank god for win-ca extension) - I
| think they were scanning in real-time to make sure you
| weren't doing security breaches.
|
| Regardless, it was so over the top it's not funny. This
| place had less than 20 people, but these insane IT
| overheads.
|
| With my current job I have been given a top of the line
| XPS and I gotta say, that screen looks so much better
| than my 2020 MBP. It's really nice. A few of my
| colleagues have put Linux on it, but then they can't
| connect to work VPN, etc. I only use the laptop for
| connecting to our databases and I just code on my
| macbook. This is a far bigger company, and they have a
| great IT team with none of that silliness from the
| smaller company.
| tshaddox wrote:
| Consider the possibility that people can like Macs for
| reasons entirely unrelated to Apple's marketing tactics.
| Reasons can include things most people would agree are
| legitimate qualities to look for in computers, like build
| quality, display quality, keyboard quality, performance,
| battery life, etc. Those seem to me as more legitimate and
| less "fanatical" reasons to prefer computers from a
| particular manufacturer than the reason you provided, which
| is that you dislike some (certainly not all, and likely a
| vanishingly small portion) people who also buy computers from
| that same manufacturer.
| prewett wrote:
| Macs have a certain set of features which is not even close
| to being matched by any other laptop, as far as I'm aware.
| Not everyone values these features, and for them, the Mac is
| just overpriced.
|
| - solid and beautiful chassis, no plastic-y uninspired
| 2008-Dell design here.
|
| - large, beautiful, high-DPI screen looks great and has crisp
| text. You can seamless rescale the UI to get effectively a
| 17" resolution or 13", depending on how big you want your UI
| elements to be.
|
| - the trackpad feels fantastic to your fingers! Two-finger
| scrolling through a document is so natural and ergonomic.
| Whenever I use the stupid Windows mouse wheel, it's either 3
| lines at once, which is not enough, or one page at a time,
| which is way too much; I've never used a Windows laptop with
| a trackpad, I hope scrolling on that doesn't work like the
| mouse wheel.
|
| - macOS is a Unix that works. Sleep works out of the box,
| every time. Wifi works, and connects instantly when you open
| the lid. After configuring the settings on first install, I
| basically never do sysadmin again for the life of that
| version of the OS. (I re-install from scratch when I upgrade;
| I know the happy path will work, but as a software developer,
| I know upgrading has all kinds of edge cases)
|
| - macOS has a very consistent look and feel, and looks
| elegant. It also has all sorts of little details that go
| practically unnoticed but add up to a better experience.
|
| For non-technical users:
|
| - there is an Apple store within about 2 hours where you can
| talk to a live person, try out the machine in person, etc.
| which makes you feel secure.
|
| - I have had exactly one macOS tech support request in over
| ten years (some girl did not know how to free up disk space).
| Contrast with Windows, where the problem is practically un-
| debuggable, or Linux, where once your problem goes off the
| rails of the config UI you'd better know how to use the
| command line.
|
| - Comes with a lot of useful software (Pages, Garage Band,
| iPhoto, etc.), unlike Windows which comes with nothing (and a
| few toy apps like Notepad and Paint).
|
| - You don't need to be a tech expert to buy a Mac. Just get
| the size you want and it works.
|
| Contrast this with Windows, where every program looks
| completely different (makes Linux look consistent). Windows
| is user-hostile (forced reboots, resists creating a local
| account, I cannot edit the Send To menu anymore, etc.) The
| user-experience of Windows is the equivalent of the Big Ball
| of Mud design pattern.
|
| Contrast with Linux, where you can do absolutely anything you
| want, but nothing ever fully works. If you had more time you
| could fix those little corners, but it's just not worth it.
| Or you'd have to add features to this app. Or your favorite
| window manager (Sawfish) gets harder and harder to install.
| Or you fight with Pulse Audio / Jack / ALSA for this
| particular sound program.
|
| And if your primary value is spending as little money as
| possible, Apple will drive you nuts. For what you get, the
| price is fair, it's just that there's no option for a lower
| trim model. Don't need Thunderbolt? Too bad, you're getting a
| fast interconnect whether you want it or not.
|
| The thing is, there is something intangible about high-end
| stuff that goes from "this does what I want and I don't think
| about it" to "I enjoy the experience of using this". It's a
| little like wearing high-end fabrics, or eating at a high-end
| restaurant. Necessary? Absolutely not. But it's that
| enjoyment it gives that creates the "fanaticism".
| yunohn wrote:
| > some girl did not know how to free up disk space
|
| Would you reconsider this wording, so that we can focus on
| your story rather than a flippant mention of their gender?
|
| "Some girl" is definitely not nice phrasing and only
| furthers gender stereotypes.
| tw600040 wrote:
| //Would you reconsider this wording, so that we can focus
| on your story rather than a flippant mention of their
| gender?
|
| I read the same post and I only focussed on the story and
| flippant mention on gender never crossed my mind until
| you brought it up..
| RobertRoberts wrote:
| Please consider that this may be a personal problem you
| have. (maybe some self reflection is in order?) I didn't
| find the statement problematic at all.
| gnerkus wrote:
| What would you suggest to be a suitable rephrasing?
| ct520 wrote:
| Well said! The comment about Linux I feel is spot on and
| gave me a chuckle. " Contrast with Linux, where you can do
| absolutely anything you want, but nothing ever fully
| works."
|
| I've ran MacBook for mobile dev and pc for in home for over
| a decade. Swapped to new m1pro and finally ditched my
| windows desktop. Still keep a local esxi server with
| windows dev vm in case. But Best upgrade I've had in
| awhile.
| goosedragons wrote:
| - It's not 2008. Plenty of great looking PCs these days. My
| Xiaomi Mi Air 12 was IMO a better looking MacBook, clean
| and free of branding.
|
| - Pretty much every modern Windows trackpad has two finger
| scrolling that works fine.
|
| - You can also get mice with free scrolling wheels like the
| Logitech MX Master line that switch between free spinning
| and ratcheted. Sometimes ratcheted scrolling is better
| particularly for gaming or if you only want to scroll a
| small amount.
|
| - Wifi works on my Linux laptops too. Sleep too. Just don't
| buy crap that doesn't work with Linux.
|
| - Maybe there is an Apple store 2 hours away. Maybe there's
| one 5 hours away. Or a an hour flight away. Maybe 2 hours
| is still too far away for you so you're stuck mailing the
| stupid thing while your friend gets the Dell tech show up
| at his house.
|
| - Just get the size you want and spend considerably more.
| Want a 16" laptop? Just spend $1500 more.
|
| - Try explaining to your tech illiterate friend why their
| 13" M1 MBP only works with 1 monitor while their old 13"
| Intel MBP worked with two.
|
| - At least you can use your favorite WM on Linux?
| prewett wrote:
| Well, if you don't appreciate what Apple is offering,
| then don't buy one. I was just explaining what people see
| in it. Judging by the upvotes, I'd say it's fairly
| representative of why people like them.
|
| > Just don't buy crap that doesn't work with Linux.
|
| See, this is exactly my point. Blame the user... I don't
| want to have to research what works well. Even if I know
| it works, it may take quite a while to figure out how to
| get it to work. It took me two weeks of recompiling
| kernels to get my T42 to go to sleep, and the trick was
| "acpi_sleep=s3" as a boot parameter. (Technically, it
| went to sleep just fine, it just hung in the kernel on
| wake, which was arguably worse) Judging by other comments
| sleep is still an issue. That's with one of the major
| features of a laptop...
|
| (The wifi wasn't a problem per se, it's just that Ubuntu
| broke the auto-detection at one point. It was working
| prior, and they've since fixed that, but I've never had
| that problem on a Mac.)
|
| > why their 13" M1 MBP only works with 1 monitor while
| their old 13" Intel MBP worked with two
|
| How many people are trying to power two monitors off a
| 13" MBP? I'm not saying Apple doesn't have issues (I'm
| using a 2018 MBP that's had the keyboard replaced once,
| and the letters have dissolved off five keys so far, and
| I wasn't happy about needing to buy it because I wanted
| to wait until the keyboard problem was fixed, which it
| was six months later, but my 2012 MBP stopped displaying
| pixels thanks to a client project which involved
| compiling all day, triggering the nVidia heatsink
| problem), but if you're the kind of person that needs two
| monitors, cheaping out on the laptop doesn't seem like a
| great idea. Next you'll be telling me they don't have
| enough RAM on their 8 GB laptop to run all the programs
| that would make two monitors useful...
|
| > At least you can use your favorite WM on Linux?
|
| Actually, I cannot. My favorite WM is sawfish, which
| requires some package that is a major pain to compile (or
| maybe there are too many for me to spend the effort, and
| the only extant packages are 32-bit, can't remember). The
| default Ubuntu thing was awful, GNOME too dumbed down,
| KDE apps crash all the time for me (but maybe I have some
| setting in the .files I've been copying around for 20
| years?) and KDE's aesthetics historically managed to make
| Windows look polished. No, I explicitly don't want a
| tiling WM. So I've settled on XFCE, which has about the
| visual polish of KDE, but at least it's lightweight. And
| I spend most of the time on the Mac, where the window
| manager does what I want. (With the exception of
| sawfish's raising the app under consideration during Alt-
| Tab, that's a great feature, don't have to look at those
| icons, just look for the window I want)
| goosedragons wrote:
| And I was explaining some of what's wrong with your post.
| It's pretty clear you haven't touched a PC laptop for
| like 15 years.
|
| Is it crazy to expect a $1000 laptop these days can
| handle 2 external monitors? Especially when it's
| predecessor could? If you're just using 2 monitors to
| look at spreadsheets or a web browser why spend an extra
| $1000 for more CPU and RAM you might not even need? Even
| crappy Intel integrated graphics will do it so long as
| there's the video outputs.
| falcolas wrote:
| > Why Mac seems to attract so fanatic behavior?
|
| The same reason console wars exist. If there are multiple
| choices, and it's not practical to take/use/buy all the
| options, people feel the need to justify the choice that they
| did make. When someone's starting from a defensive position,
| unemotional rationality is uncommon.
|
| AKA, it's human nature.
| mekster wrote:
| Except Mac, macOS and its third party apps are actually
| better.
|
| Windows is always lagging with its legacy burden, Linux on
| desktop doesn't have commercial interest to begin with.
|
| Consoles are pretty much the same unless they have
| exclusive games.
|
| It's not really emotional matters. Used Windows 10+ years
| and not missing it.
| hollandia wrote:
| As a developer/gamer I use all these systems and with
| every year I'm less and less motivated to use macOS.
| Linux is clear winner for everything I need server
| related and Windows is fine for everything client
| related. macOS is in this weird spot where it lacks most
| of the server side stuff (lack of hosting, poor
| virtualization support etc.), but it also lacks some of
| the client side things (poor gaming, no hardware
| customization etc.).
| Melatonic wrote:
| Yeah I am kind of in this boat as well - Windows is held
| back by some legacy stuff but has also gotten better and
| better. It also has a bunch more spyware crap (but if you
| know what to do thankfully you can disable most of that).
| It used to be back in the day you had to choose between a
| smooth OSX experience or a bloated adware filled windows
| XP.
|
| Linux has also gotten dramatically easier as well of
| course and is free. I still like MacOS generally but I
| always thought it was a mistake to completely ignore
| server-adjacent stuff that powerusers would want. If I
| buy a Mac and own MacOS why can't I also run a MacOS VM
| on that same machine? Would be pretty cool to have 3 or 4
| running simultaneously with these new processors.
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| > Except Mac, macOS and its third party apps are actually
| better.
|
| Definitely not.
|
| > Linux on desktop doesn't have commercial interest to
| begin with
|
| Red Hat is literally IBM now...
| eldaisfish wrote:
| it's really not the same as console wars. You touch and
| interact with a laptop far more often than a video game
| console. That alone makes the comparison invalid.
|
| While i am no apple fanatic, i will readily admit that much
| of their hardware is designed extremely well from an
| ergonomic standpoint. Barring obvious failures like their
| push to make things needlessly thin, a lot of their
| hardware is durable and holds its value well. Personally, i
| have a macbook from 2014 that i still use daily for basic
| tasks and its keyboard is very well built.
|
| While some user behaviour is fanatical, one cannot deny
| that apply invest a lot into usability of their hardware
| and software and it shows. Can't say the same for a lot of
| windows laptops.
| drusepth wrote:
| >You touch and interact with a laptop far more often than
| a video game console.
|
| While is this true, the number of console wars spawned
| from comparing physical controller feel might bring the
| parallel back on track.
| nerdawson wrote:
| I think you're making a different point.
|
| The post wasn't about how you engage with the device. It
| was simply another similar scenario where the same
| behaviour emerges.
|
| It's an emotional decision dressed in layers of thought
| and reason.
| scns wrote:
| In one word: Tribalism.
| danans wrote:
| > AKA, it's human nature.
|
| It's also a form of entertainment.
|
| > unemotional rationality is uncommon
|
| Tangentially, I'm not certain it even exists outside of
| sociopaths. A certain amount of emotion or beliefs
| underlies most rational arguments.
|
| The problem is when emotional rationality devolves to
| either shallowness (i.e. fleeting trends) or fanaticism
| ("there is only one true option forever").
|
| But shallowness and fanaticism are always present because
| they are both easier routes to self appeasement in a world
| that usually pushes people towards lower self concept.
| s3233323 wrote:
| briffle wrote:
| Dude, its been this way since the mid 1990's at least....
| fsloth wrote:
| "Hello. I'm a Mac. And I'm a PC"
| caconym_ wrote:
| These days I see way more people spouting the "omg mac users
| are fanatics!!!!" line than I see actual mac "fanatics". It
| got very stale years ago, honestly.
|
| It's natural human behavior to talk about things we like in
| relevant contexts, but I really don't see much of it
| happening anywhere near the top of this comments section.
| Just ignore it and move on.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > Why Mac seems to attract so fanatic behavior?
|
| That is a good question. But ...
|
| > They seem to want to push everyone to use Mac, like
| religious fanatics try to push everyone to their "truth".
|
| As soon as you can adequately explain why there are people
| that are vehemently anti-Apple, you will have the answer to
| this question. You make it sound like it's only pro-Apple
| people that are fanatics.
| dcastonguay wrote:
| I think there are actually two questions here:
|
| 1. Why do some people seem to be so fanatical about their
| love for Macs?
|
| 2. Why do some people seem to be so vocally fanatical
| online about their love for Macs?
|
| As far as #1 goes, I think it's just about finding
| something that you have to use every day that you are much
| happier with. I have found small pieces of software that
| have made me jump for joy simply because they resolved a
| small problem; it's not hard to understand why someone
| would become so fanatical about switching to a a completely
| new piece of hardware and OS that they feel works so much
| better than what they were previously using.
|
| I used to have long and aggressive arguments with my
| college roommate about why Windows was superior to OS X and
| said that I would never even consider owning an Apple
| product. I've been using a Mac now for work and personal
| use for a little over a decade and I dread every time I
| need to use my Windows machine for certain work tasks.
|
| I think this is perfectly understandable and I don't think
| there's anything wrong with people going through the
| process of finding something that changes the way they do
| something major in their lives.
|
| #2, however, tends to be more unpleasant when it becomes
| vitriolic/persistent. I think this is just a symptom of the
| happiness that exists from feeling like you've found the
| greener grass (and wanting to share that with others) mixed
| with an inability to understand the negative aspects of
| aggressively stating to complete strangers that the
| preferences of others are objectively wrong. I think this
| is inevitable considering the Mac is still considered the
| "alternate" option for some reason, and it's paired
| (inevitably) with those that feel that the fanaticism for
| the alternate option is unwarranted.
|
| I think the tech sector has always attracted both skeptics
| and idealists/innovators, and that's bound to create an
| environment where you'll have groups that feel like it's
| their duty to inform others of what they feel is the better
| way and groups of people that feel like it's their duty to
| temper unwarranted fanaticism.
| bccdee wrote:
| > people that are vehemently anti-Apple
|
| This is just it though! You're not describing "Apple
| fanatics versus Windows fanatics," you're describing "Apple
| fanatics versus people with an irrational and excessive
| hatred of Apple fanaticism." Why does this culture exist
| specifically around Apple?
| sngz wrote:
| can't speak for others. but personally I'm forced to use
| macbooks at my last 2 companies. Tried to make the case
| for getting a dell XPS with linux installed but they
| refused to support it. Other than that I have senior
| family members that have trouble figuring out how to use
| an iphone, between the lack of SD card slot forcing them
| to navigate how to pay and use iCloud, and figuring out
| all the dongles with the lack of headphone jack now. They
| would keep harassing me to help them with their issues.
| marcosdumay wrote:
| > Why does this culture exist specifically around Apple?
|
| It doesn't. It also exists around Linux, in general and
| around each distro. It exists around Windows. It exists
| around FreeBSD (but you may not have heard from them
| recently)... It basically exists everywhere.
|
| If you look at a thread about ARM, you will see it there,
| and the corresponding x86 one too. (And if you are lucky,
| you will catch some actual x86, not amd64, fans and anti-
| fans too). Haskell, Rust, Javascript, and PHP threads
| have those groups too.
| MetaWhirledPeas wrote:
| > As soon as you can adequately explain why there are
| people that are vehemently anti-Apple, you will have the
| answer to this question.
|
| Oh, oh! I know this one.
|
| Apple's devices are extremely closed. This is antithetical
| to the spirit of personal computing. But this is only one
| component: what ultimately pushes Apple to generate an
| anti-Apple crowd is the combination of them being a closed
| platform, them using every dirty trick in the book to suck
| users into their closed ecosystem, and them being
| _extremely successful at it_.
|
| Want to make an iOS app? Buy a Mac. No, not an old Mac, a
| _new one_.
|
| Want to send proper messages to an iPhone user? Get an
| iPhone. Or convince them to install Signal. (I'll wait!
| LOL.)
|
| Want to make a video call to an iPhone user? Get an iPhone.
| (Or ask them to install Duo, haha!)
|
| Want to install Mac OS? Buy our hardware.
|
| None of this would matter so much if we were talking about
| coffee makers. But we're talking about _personal computing_
| , a very central component of our nerd lives. If you're a
| youngster you're probably happy with occasional hardware
| replacement and messes of dongles, but for many of us our
| computing experiences are rooted in opening up the box and
| switching the guts around, or booting different software on
| the box, and we don't especially appreciate having to
| constantly battle the hardware vendor to make this happen.
|
| Apple products seem to be very high-quality. But that's not
| really the point.
| rmbyrro wrote:
| I'm developing a Godot game and it's really ridiculous I
| need a Mac to compile it for the MacOS and iOS.
|
| I can compile for EVERY PLATFORM from my Arch Linux, just
| not for Apple stuff.
|
| It's ridiculous... This kind of behavior reminds me of
| Ballmer's Microshit.
| krapp wrote:
| So just don't offer a version for Mac, and if anyone asks
| why, tell them you're not going to buy a 400 dollar
| Macbook just to use as a compiler.
| [deleted]
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > If you're a youngster you're probably happy with
| occasional hardware replacement and messes of dongles,
| but for many of us our computing experiences are rooted
| in opening up the box and switching the guts around, or
| booting different software on the box, and we don't
| especially appreciate having to constantly battle the
| hardware vendor to make this happen.
|
| I'm pushing 50 and 35 years ago I was building PCs (and
| selling them, too!). I love building PCs. Still do, it's
| fun. Tinkering is very enjoyable. I technically have more
| Linux machines than Macs (though admittedly that requires
| counting Rasberry Pis).
|
| But. For my 'daily driver' computing, I'm pretty happy in
| the Apple ecosystem. They sell me 'just works' with a
| polished interface and I can focus my tinkering on the
| stuff I _want_ to tinker with. And by infecting my
| extended family with this opinion, I 've lowered my
| technical support load quite a lot.
|
| It's the same reason that years ago I stopped modding my
| daily driver car, and moved that passion into a hobby
| instead.
| MetaWhirledPeas wrote:
| That's fair. Some of us just hold grudges I guess :)
| antihero wrote:
| I think every dev should rock a Linux setup at least once
| in their life but for me I prefer to make stuff than be a
| gardener
| monkmartinez wrote:
| It's hard to see experience on the internet. I agree, it's
| definitely a two way street with regard to fanaticism. The
| people that "shout" the loudest often drown out the more
| reasonable responses.
|
| Myself, I have been back and forth between PC (windows) and
| Apple several times. My priorities have changed over the
| years and I find PC's fit my requirements to a better
| extent since 2014. If Apple can bring back a notebook like
| HP ZBook or Dell Precision I would consider moving. Until
| then, I will live with the tradeoff's...
| rootusrootus wrote:
| I agree with you, even if I came to a different
| conclusion on which ecosystem fits my needs better at
| this moment. I respect that everyone has their own needs,
| and they will make the best choice for themself. I hate
| the shouting on the 'net.
|
| I usually stay the heck out of the debate because it
| devolves to namecalling so quickly, but something about
| HN makes me want to participate -- the promise of a civil
| discussion.
| dayvid wrote:
| Mac hardware just works.
|
| PCs are usually cheaper and can pull better benchmark
| numbers, but most Windows laptops have weird little issues
| and quirks that add up. I find myself a lot more productive
| on a Mac than a Windows laptop, which more than makes up for
| any price difference. I can add hacks to make Windows work,
| but even those aren't as intuitive as Mac productivity
| software.
| adra wrote:
| Nope, they may just work for you tm, but not for all. As
| mentioned before, my work enforced 2019 macbook crashes
| minimum 3 times a week and my run of the mill windows PC
| hasn't "crashed" at all, like in the 3 years I've owned it,
| zero OS crashes. So I'm happy that you're content with your
| choice, but know yours is a decision paid with subjectivity
| wrapped very tightly. I'd love to see actual enterprises
| with large fleets of various real world used computers post
| metrics on failure rates, etc. I'd love to see it.
| sitzkrieg wrote:
| they're expensive so people innately defend them despite
| being no better and worse in a lot of ways
| tsuujin wrote:
| Fun fact: the windows and Linux communities are both equally
| bad at this.
|
| It's not that apple users are fanatics, it's that some people
| define their identity by their OS and will make absolutely
| certain you know.
| smoldesu wrote:
| At least people who proselytize for Linux or Windows aren't
| telling you to throw away your laptop so you can buy a new,
| $1,000+ replacement machine. Oh, you don't like it? That's
| because you didn't buy a $700 iPhone, and you didn't
| compliment it with your $300 Homepod. You didn't forget to
| buy a $400 Apple Watch, did you? That would almost be as
| ridiculous as forgetting to buy a $50 Magsafe charger!
| W-wait, you didn't buy that either? Good luck charging your
| phone, then... your Mac only ships with a USB-C cable.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Some of the pro-Apple commentary that happens in
| discussions like this is just a response to the constant
| "you got suckered by Steve Jobs Reality Distortion Field"
| style of comments. Anti-Apple folks like to insinuate (if
| not proclaim outright) that Apple users are less technical
| than Linux users, they're stupid, etc.
|
| Meanwhile, some of us just wanted a decently polished
| desktop GUI that runs a unix command line natively. You
| could say that Windows now supports this, and Linux
| desktops have made some progress, but when I switched over
| to primarily using OSX for my workstation years ago,
| neither was remotely true. I stick with it because inertia,
| just like most everyone else.
| kaladin-jasnah wrote:
| > I stick with it because inertia, just like most
| everyone else.
|
| Yep, I bet a lot of people are like that. That's why I
| use Linux on the desktop: I've been using it for like 6
| years and I can't be bothered to try anything else since
| this is what I know.
| jotm wrote:
| I mean, if the hardware runs Linux well, it's not that
| ridiculous to recommend it. Forget the Apple software part.
| fulafel wrote:
| We know the current hw doesn't.
| neogodless wrote:
| Can everyone that has spent at least one month using Linux on
| an M1 as a daily driver please respond with their
| experiences, so we know that this "Linux on an M1"
| recommendation is valid?
| rxhernandez wrote:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31094361#31098178
| [deleted]
| rxhernandez wrote:
| It doesn't run linux anywhere near as well as a X1 Carbon. I
| get daily crashes on a fresh install on a M1 Mac after only a
| couple weeks of having it. My X1 Carbon has been running
| strong for nearly a year with no memorable crashes during
| that time period.
|
| There's software I can't even install because there aren't
| arm versions of it available.
| scelerat wrote:
| There are many angles to take when responding to a query, and
| when doing so one must consider, and occasionally, question the
| original premises.
|
| In public forums, one should assume both the questions and the
| answers to be for a wider audience. People are here for the
| alternate takes, the discussions, etc. Built-in to the
| interface of this site and many like it are tools to hide
| threads, in part or in entirety, and to downvote posts or
| threads deemed inappropriate or irrelevant.
|
| I guess my main counterpoint is that it's a bit vain to expect
| a diverse public forum to be one's own personal consultancy /
| counsel / etc.
| ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote:
| It's every Ask HN thread, every time I want to ask a question
| here I give up because I find myself listing the obvious,
| requirement-breaking answers that I know will come but that I
| don't want to see.
|
| It's not like stack-overflow where often the users are
| beginners and don't know what they want and it's sometimes
| helpful to point out XY problems. Here people are technically
| literate and know what they want yet the requirements are still
| ignored.
| electroly wrote:
| IMO it goes beyond Ask HN. If you make a post and you know
| people are going to make a particular reply, it doesn't
| matter if you preemptively address that reply right in your
| post; you're going to get that reply anyway. People skim,
| they don't read, and they don't think deeply about posts.
| They're just pattern matching on a couple words and slamming
| out a reply. The reply is practically locked and loaded
| before you even made the post.
| 300bps wrote:
| People are in such a hurry to talk, they don't listen.
| conductr wrote:
| Agree. Also I feel like most ask hn are just questions and
| that's it. No need to sift through the asker's
| specifications on how they'd like everyone to answer. So I
| feel like when an asker expects that, it's not likely to be
| respected by all. It's just a quirk of hn.
| warrenm wrote:
| A better Ask HN title would've been "of these 4 Linux-based
| laptops, what are your experiences"
| sokoloff wrote:
| The current title gets _way more_ eyeballs and
| engagement. I say that only one-quarter jokingly.
| banal00 wrote:
| philtar wrote:
| nanidin wrote:
| I guess that if someone can't articulate why they do or don't
| want something, someone who is passionate about that thing
| sees their chance to help someone see the light. I then guess
| that the solution to giving requirements like "not a mac" is
| to also articulate why at a level that the audience will
| respect.
|
| OP has already made the mistake of asking for something very
| broad in the title, then asking for something very specific
| in the body. If the title read "Linux laptop" I doubt they
| would have as many people in the comments suggesting anything
| else.
| akhmatova wrote:
| _If the title read "Linux laptop" I doubt they would have
| as many people in the comments suggesting anything else._
|
| Sorry, but that's a cop-out. As others have point out, the
| real problem is "people just don't read these days". Not
| even the top few lines of a post. If they did, they would
| have had no problem finding this important qualifier:
| I have no intention of using Windows/MacOS
| nanidin wrote:
| I don't agree - I think if the original poster adhered to
| something like "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way: Use
| meaningful, specific subject headers" [0] then we would
| not even be having this conversation because the original
| poster would have found their target audience of Linux
| Laptop Recommenders rather than a bunch of people that
| arrived to comment their favorite laptop and found that
| they were cut off by the original poster with no real
| explanation for WHY Windows/MacOS are not acceptable.
|
| It would be similar to "Ask HN: Which text editor should
| I use for software development" with a body that contains
| "I have no intention of using an IDE or mouse". It's a
| poorly formed request if your intent is to ask for
| recommendations amongst the keyboard driven tiled
| editors.
|
| [0] http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-
| questions.html#bespecifi...
| syngrog66 wrote:
| I suspect its because a shamefully large percentage of Ask HN
| and Show HN are stupid or lazy
|
| "Guys how do I learn math?"
|
| "Are there any apps that let you type in numbers and add them
| together?"
|
| "Is there any way I can ask questions to strangers on the web
| so I dont have to type the equivalent into the Google search
| bar or look it up on Wikipedia, YouTube, Amazon, library etc
| etc etc etc?"
|
| granted my most generous interpretation of this phenomenon is
| that many of these cases are "kids at keyboard" phenomenon.
| but its frustrating at times seeing it repeat endlessly here.
| helmholtz wrote:
| Like all the "just use Org-Mode" comments. God, if I see one
| more Org Mode recomendation I might just burst!
| er4hn wrote:
| Didja know you can use org-mode to handle this as a todo?
| For example:
|
| ** TODO: Install NixOs and learn how to use declarative
| configuration. ** TODO: Burst from hearing about the power
| of org-mode.
|
| Then you can use C-c C-t to rotate the TODO's as you carry
| them out!
|
| (All comments tongue in cheek from a vim amateur user)
| ramblerman wrote:
| Your comment is currently on top, so instead of laptop
| recommendations, we have yet another navel gazing meta
| discussion about HN and it's tendencies.
| usui wrote:
| I've read the entire thread and took note of all the top-
| level responses that talked about Macs before the parent was
| posted versus the ones not talking about Macs. There are
| what, 4-5 mentions about getting a Mac out of dozens of non-
| Mac recommendations? Barely anyone gave those Mac comments
| attention before they were downvoted to the end anyway.
|
| Parent just seems to have an axe to grind and took the
| opportunity to hijack a thread about recommendations.
| hinkley wrote:
| And hardly any mention of Mac in the next twenty top
| comments...
| cruano wrote:
| Should have put that on the title
|
| I mean, it's already kind of stupid to want to avoid something
| the whole industry uses, from big tech to startups. In
| particular, when you have a very hard set of requirements that
| historically no one gets right except for you know who.
| oauea wrote:
| It's interesting how cult-like mac users are.
| banal00 wrote:
| Linux user base is far more cultish. For one, they
| collaborate for free over high minded concepts and lol at
| outsiders who don't know their incantations.
|
| Cults were never paying their people, and like to demean
| outsiders. So there's that.
| matwood wrote:
| Linux and Windows users are not much different. Just
| depends what website you happen to be on.
| kibwen wrote:
| Apple is a luxury fashion company and Apple hardware is a
| way for people to express social status, which means
| convincing as many other people as possible that Apple is
| desirable in order to elevate the effectiveness of their
| social status signaling. It's the same as any other luxury
| fashion brand, e.g. Louis Vuitton. The value is not in the
| function of the product itself, but in the perception of
| status that it engenders.
| evilduck wrote:
| Could we get tech companies to step up and beat the
| fashion company then? Because on many, many, many
| comparisons the fashion company makes them look
| completely inept at making tech products. I know, they've
| only had 20 years, it seems like a ridiculous ask.
|
| Besides raw specs of CPUs and GPUs, which the fashion
| company is encroaching on too, my non-fashion product's
| trackpads, screen color quality, sound quality, screen
| hinges, heat dissipation locations, power efficiency,
| keyboards, case flex, case materials, weight, size,
| storage speeds, and upgradability are just some of the
| things that all suck on my Lenovo, Microsoft and Asus
| laptops my household owns and that my fashion laptops
| consistently do better.
|
| My non-fashion products manage to put better refresh rate
| screens in, and I can get gaming capable discrete GPUs,
| and _one_ of them lets me upgrade the RAM aftermarket,
| but for the most part they 're all worse products that
| have lower utility than the fashion products. The
| perception they engender with me is that they're the only
| company that builds a product they don't secretly loathe.
| brimble wrote:
| I felt the way you do for the entire decade of the '00s.
|
| Then I started a job that issued me a MacBook Pro. And
| got to see, use, and develop for, a shitload of Android
| and iOS devices, both phones and tablets.
|
| Turns out I'd just never given them a chance.
|
| But yes, I'm sure Apple users are just dumber than you,
| and that's all it is.
| oauea wrote:
| Well, sure, because Apple makes it impossible to develop
| for iOS devices without using a Mac. So you HAVE to fully
| buy into their ecosystem if you want to develop anything
| for their mobile phones.
| kibwen wrote:
| _> But yes, I 'm sure Apple users are just dumber than
| you, and that's all it is._
|
| I too fell for the Apple marketing cult. I was excited
| when I got my first MacBook. To say that I was
| disappointed would be an understatement. The keyboard
| felt terrible and broke frequently, the insistence of
| dongles to make up for the anemic port selection was a
| constant annoyance, the touchbar was a myopic UX
| catastrophe, the touchpad was worse than on PC laptops
| that I've used, the software was outdated,
| configurability and lack of control was appalling, and it
| was abundant with boneheaded design decisions that
| favored form over function. At least the screen was nice.
| Today it sits gathering dust in the corner.
|
| But yes, I'm sure non-Apple users are just too dumb to
| appreciate Jobbesian bliss, and that's all it is.
| brimble wrote:
| Heh, I was kinda bummed out when I got mine. I'd been
| developing on Linux for years. That turned around _hard_
| in a month or two.
|
| This was well before the super-shitty run they had where
| they went all-USB-C, Touch Bar (ugh), and ruined their
| keyboards, though. I'd probably have been a lot less
| impressed if that was my introduction to their stuff.
| thawaya3113 wrote:
| The thread is in the context of Apple users insisting
| that the OP should use a Mac, when the OP has explicitly
| stated that it does not fit their needs.
| brimble wrote:
| Sure, that's silly, agreed. BS about Apple being a
| "fashion company" isn't really helping, though.
| matwood wrote:
| > social status signaling
|
| The same way you're attempting to social signal by
| putting Apple down as a luxury fashion company?
| kibwen wrote:
| There are many ways to signal social status, and we'd all
| be better off if people favored ones with positive
| externalities (e.g. volunteering and donating to charity)
| rather than ones with negative externalities (e.g. lining
| the pockets of executives of the world's richest company
| while they endeavor to reduce computers to unrepairable
| appliances and destroy general-purpose computing).
| figassis wrote:
| I love and develop for Linux, but I use a Mac. I
| understand people's complaints about macs, but in no way
| have I bought it for any kind of signaling. Most people
| don't know I use a Mac, except my family.
|
| I used to be a windows person, and had the same opinion
| about macs as you, but now I exclusively buy macs for
| myself and my family bc I am the family's IT support
| team. And guess what? The amount of time and headaches it
| saved me over the years can't be understated. It would
| not have been possible with Linux.
|
| My mother can drag and drop an app into applications
| folder but even that is a stretch. She however can easily
| open the App Store and click buy, using the same UX as on
| her phone. Guess how many things are intuitive to her
| across her ipad, iPhone and Mac, that she almost never
| has to call me for anything.
|
| I have my family on a family sharing plan with my card on
| it (I have terrible things to tell Apple about the fact
| that I have no granular control abt who or how much
| people can spend there) , but the fact that they are able
| to get what they need to be productive without having to
| research the many different ways an application is
| installed, or how it's impossible to uninstall or to
| handle all those MSIs or whatever the windows installers
| do now, or virus scanning everything under the sun (and
| let me not forget about the mcaffee and avg and avast
| licenses and adware from companies that are supposed to
| be legitimate and give you peace of mind)...is priceless
| (I know, sounds like an Apple ad, but it's true).
|
| More, the integration with the outside world, how people
| can record voice, take notes, photos and have these
| things readily available everywhere. The finder app, and
| how I don't need 100 different apps to view things I
| download from the web or get from an external source.
| Again, priceless.
|
| You can geolocate, disable, brick your stolen hardware,
| no extra software, apps or cost. Super useful, I forgot
| my laptop in a cab once at an airport, my mother had hers
| stolen. Both are confirmed bricked. Maybe other
| brands/OSes have this now, but I have no time to find
| out.
|
| Back to my family, how they can subscribe to things like
| scribd, audio books, udemy, and a bunch of other things
| without having to go through all the marketing pages and
| double speak of these services online and be able to
| cancel immediately if they need, gives them a lot of
| power and I'm glad they can get what they need when they
| need and move on with their lives. My mother is a lawyer,
| she should not spend her time fighting an OS.
|
| Linux would be better than windows, but it has failure
| modes that require admin level terminal skills to solve.
| I use Linux server, but I have no need for the desktop
| atm.
|
| Finally, maybe today is different or I never looked hard
| enough, but it used to be that to get a Linux laptop, I'd
| need to get a windows laptop and dual boot or wipe it and
| install Linux.
|
| I may have time for this with servers (that's my work),
| and I may have had time for this when I was in college,
| but I most certainly do not have time for this now.
|
| Maybe if it were as easy to just walk into a store or get
| online and buy a Linux laptop back then, I might have
| gone Linux desktop rather than Mac.
|
| In my mind, windows is hell, Linux is expert level, Mac
| is for everyone.
|
| This is not an answer for this post, I would also like to
| get the answer and maybe I'll try that.
| jcranberry wrote:
| Apple the company constantly annoys the hell out of me on
| principle but the new M1 macbooks are pretty good.
| Ragnarork wrote:
| > something the whole industry uses
|
| Citation needed. With actual stats to back it up.
|
| The reasonable answer at the end of the day remains
|
| > Cool, use what works for you.
|
| There are use cases where Macs are useless or such a PITA to
| work with (ugh native compilation), others where they're
| kinda necessary (i.e. iOS development), and there's been no
| info about this from OP, so the most reasonable thing to do
| is still to acknowledge they have a good reason, and stop
| forcing Macs into the suggestions, even more so by using
| baseless arguments.
| [deleted]
| bluefirebrand wrote:
| > I mean, it's already kind of stupid to want to avoid
| something the whole industry uses, from big tech to startups
|
| Windows still owns the market to a substantial degree, Macos
| is still a niche OS. Maybe you've seen a trend of software
| companies moving to Macos, but it's definitely not the
| standard by any means.
| cruano wrote:
| Have you ever been to a FAANG office ?
|
| Or anything in San Francisco for that matter, in my time in
| PayPal only one dude in the whole office had a windows
| machine
| bluefirebrand wrote:
| Have you ever been to an office outside of the FAANG /
| Silicon Valley Startup Bubble?
|
| You won't see a Mac almost anywhere.
|
| The numbers don't lie. Windows is more widely used than
| MacOS right now, period. And it's not even close.
|
| Maybe that is starting to change, maybe we're in for
| another round of companies going "This is what they do at
| Google" and playing follow the leader. Maybe. But that's
| not the conversation we're having.
|
| If you want to have that conversation, make those points.
| Not this "but it's what FAANG uses" appeal to authority
| nonsense.
| rileyphone wrote:
| That's not entirely true these days, Mac market share has
| gone up from 5% to ~15% in the last 10 years while Windows
| sits on its hands.
|
| https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-
| share/desktop/worldwide...
| thawaya3113 wrote:
| Which still means that more than 5 out of 6 computers are
| not Macs.
|
| Which is as diametrically opposite of the industry
| standard as you can get.
| bluefirebrand wrote:
| I'm not sure how you can look at Windows: 75% MacOs: 15%
|
| and then try and dispute what I said. Those numbers
| aren't even close.
|
| Sure, maybe MacOs is growing, and less niche than it used
| to be. I'm not disputing that.
|
| But come on here.
| mmis1000 wrote:
| Mac is probably a good dev machine. But for production and
| service...? I don't think so. It is currently the most
| unstable system I ever met. I need to reboot it due to
| completely un-addressable memory leak and lag (the cpu is
| idle, the memory isn't starved, disk don't really have much
| io and it still lags) from time to time if I keep it on for
| a long time.
| throwntoday wrote:
| It's natural for people to be perplexed when OP asks for the
| best option, is given the best option, and produces an
| irrational excuse against that option.
|
| What are people supposed to say besides, let's help you resolve
| that excuse?
| c0mptonFP wrote:
| Dude, operating system is one of the most fundamental things to
| consider when getting a dev machine.
|
| MacOS is literally useless for me, because I depend on the
| Linux kernel.
| j-krieger wrote:
| You can still install Linux on a mac (which is what I did)
| and still get a powerful and beautiful machine, if you so
| desire.
| fabianhjr wrote:
| There is almost no firmware support for the recent aarch64
| Mac hardware.
| mort96 wrote:
| So are you suggesting getting a 3+ year old Intel model
| then? Since the ARM models aren't really supported yet.
| vinceguidry wrote:
| Least-worst option if you're stuck running OSX is to run a
| Linux VM. VMWare makes probably the best solution.
| raxxorraxor wrote:
| I use a Mac Book from time to time and the keyboard alone
| is special... I don't think Mac is a good universal machine
| for development to be honest. The devices overall are nice,
| out of the question, but a Linux machine is ultimately more
| powerful.
| swozey wrote:
| "Ultimately more powerful"
|
| As a previous BSD engineer please explain further, this
| entire thread is just horrendous and should be downvoted
| to oblivion.
|
| Nobody cares what laptop you decide to use, nor are you
| incapable of doing your own research. My grandmother
| calls me for laptop recommendations.
|
| My M1 Max 14" MBP has 64gb ram, mucho cores and is the
| fastest machine I've used. My gaming/dev desktop is a
| 12core ryzen with 64gb and I prefer to use the Macbook
| which can sit on my lap without even having a fan
| running.
|
| Did I used to hate Apple? Yes. Do I have a $2500 Dell XPS
| 13z sitting in a closet that I never use because it
| throttles so horribly it's useless? Yes.
| princevegeta89 wrote:
| How does M1 play with an external 4K monitor?
|
| I have a 2020 Mac with the highest fucking configuration
| (32GB RAM and i7 8-core 10th gen) and the fans on it are
| always going off.
|
| I figure a laptop with a discrete GPU can handle external
| screens and graphics much better than integrated, but was
| wondering what your take on the M1 mac for this would be.
| swozey wrote:
| I use a 49" Samsung monitor that does 4k and like you
| mentioned my Intel work macbook pro is constantly
| spinning fans/hot. The M1 I honestly haven't noticed it
| making any noise while plugged into it. It also runs a
| lot better, less graphic glitches and weirdness. I don't
| like having to use my work mbp at all anymore.
| [deleted]
| princevegeta89 wrote:
| To the commenter above this, is the M1 able to handle a
| 4k resolution on well its own ground?
| matwood wrote:
| I had an M1 MBA and it ran my 4k monitor fine. I would
| use it and the laptop screen at the same time. Great
| machine. I ended up giving it to my wife and getting an
| M1 MBP because I needed more than 16gb RAM for my
| workflows.
| [deleted]
| freeopinion wrote:
| If I pay for shipping, would you part with the XPS?
| swozey wrote:
| I'll sell it for cheap, ie 1kish but it's going to my mom
| next week otherwise
| formerkrogemp wrote:
| I'll pay you 5$ and shipping for that XPS.
| swozey wrote:
| It's being sent to my mom this week, if you make that $1k
| I'll do it. It's barely 2 years old and has been awful
| since I got it. I think I just had higher expectations
| out of its form factor which can't keep itself cool at
| all.
| wtetzner wrote:
| I think you misunderstood "more powerful". I don't think
| they were referring to the hardware being more powerful,
| but the OS in terms of its flexibility.
| eertami wrote:
| I too have an M1 MBP and XPS 13. I pretty much always use
| the XPS. Side by side, there is no noticeable difference
| in speed for my everyday work. The MBP is more efficient
| for sure, but I get 8+ hours of battery from the XPS
| which is good enough - and I can run Linux without
| jumping through hoops.
|
| Edit: Missed the 'z', sorry, possibly explains different
| experiences.
| swozey wrote:
| Mine is the ultrabook, the XPS 13z 2n1. It throttles
| nonstop, I've even gone so far to rip it open and
| attempted to re-paste everything inside of it.
| Unfortunately the ultrabook CPU can't be de-lidded and
| pasted without breaking things, I was actually the first
| person on /r/dell to rip this laptop open..
|
| The XPS 13 is a much larger device (better cooling). The
| 13z ruined me ever buying another Dell. I really wanted
| to love that laptop and NOT buy a $3k macbook. I really
| want the 2n1 feature.
| aenis wrote:
| My wife has one of those things for work. She had to
| downclock the CPU in order to prevent it from running the
| fans at full speed for her workflows. After that, it was
| OK, slow, but at least no longer too loud to have a
| conversation next to it.
| ahepp wrote:
| I had to jump through a few hoops to get Linux working
| right on my XPS 15, and it was actually a major reason I
| switched to a MacBook. The backlight didn't work with the
| original kernel released with Debian Bullseye. That got
| fixed with the next release of Bullseye, but I still only
| got something like, 4 hours of battery life? I'm almost
| certain it wasn't properly switching between integrated
| graphics and the Nvidia GPU, but there are only so many
| hours in the day to set this stuff up.
|
| I really liked my XPS when I got it, but I'm pretty jaded
| about Linux support for laptops ever being good enough to
| compete with something like Apple. And at the end of the
| day I care a lot more about having a high quality Unix
| based OS than whether or not that OS is libre (sorry to
| say).
| Lio wrote:
| 8 hours is amazingly good for an XPS13 in my experience.
|
| My XP13 9370 running Fedora lasts maybe 2 hours at a
| push. I'm actually considering moving back to a 14"
| MacBook Pro because of the battery life.
|
| Rumours of an imminent M2 upgrade are about the only
| thing stopping me now.
| swozey wrote:
| I got the 14" Max when they first came out and it's an
| absolutely fantastic laptop. I love it. The Max battery
| life is quite a bit worse than the regular M1, if thats
| your main concern go with the non-Max.
| wolfgang000 wrote:
| Same boat as you, waiting for the second generation, I
| don't event want to jump to the apple ecosystem but the
| battery life + performance at that price range makes it a
| almost a non-brainer for me
| raxxorraxor wrote:
| Well, you might be able to make it work, but the OS
| simply leaves you less freedom compared to a Linux
| machine.
|
| And you would need to jump through hoops. I am an
| embedded dev and I have tried. Theoretically it is
| possible, but you would miss a lot of tooling on the way.
|
| I don't really care about performance that much. I have
| an MB Air with M1 and I like it because the battery and
| display is very good. But it isn't really used for
| productivity. I also work in industry and everything here
| is Windows and maybe Linux. MacOS doesn't exist here.
|
| Good luck attaching your Mac to a reflow soldering
| machine (I have tried too). It just doesn't play well
| with others and is rather exclusionary itself.
| swozey wrote:
| Unique devices is definitely a concern! I wasn't sure
| when I got my Garmin watch if I'd be able to update it
| from my mac. Thankfully I can.
| barbacoa wrote:
| I had to connect a work Macbook to Ethernet. It didn't
| have a port so I bought a no-name brand USB-to-RJ45
| adapter off Amazon. Come to find macOS doesn't have
| driver support for the adapter even though Windows and
| Linux are both plug and play. And I wasn't willing to do
| some backdoor process to install drivers on a work
| laptop. I had to buy a Apple branded adapter, which was
| 2x the price and only USB 2 vs the other one being USB 3.
| smoldesu wrote:
| Different strokes for different folks. My Macbook
| collects dust whenever I'm home because I'd vastly prefer
| to do my work on a desktop Linux box. I don't have to
| spend my time updating coreutils, fighting Homebrew,
| fixing my screen sharing permissions for the 6th time
| this month, or really much of anything. My desktop and
| the systems we deploy to have almost complete parity.
| password4321 wrote:
| > fighting Homebrew
|
| I switched to MacPorts when Homebrew moved on from macOS
| Mojave... now I wish I had done so much sooner!
| smoldesu wrote:
| MacPorts is pretty unstable (in my experience). Felt like
| 2011-era Arch Linux all over again...
|
| Honestly, Nix is the only package manager I really like
| on Mac.
| lazyier wrote:
| Apple keyboards are miserable. I don't know why people
| keep saying that it's so wonderful.
|
| I have a Macbook pro I get from work and the keyboard on
| that thing is borderline unusable. With it's weird flat
| keys, no travel, and the elimination of function keys for
| this terrible GUI thing.
|
| As an Emacs user I find the whole concept of a "touch
| screen esc key" as deplorable and regressive.
|
| And this is on top of the poor reliability and high cost
| of repair.
| MarkyC4 wrote:
| They fixed the esc key on the 2019 models.
|
| I like the key travel of my (personal) 2015 MBP compared
| to the 2019 MBP I have for work. I put a keyboard cover
| on the 2019 and it feels less bad.
| mr_coleman wrote:
| I had a pre-2015 macbook for a while and I can honestly
| say that I've never had a worse keyboard. It hurt my
| fingers and it felt like Apple was trying to destroy my
| hands. A cheap $10 keyboard felt better.
| Unbeliever69 wrote:
| The new macs are (for me) a return to the pre-2015 era
| but on steroids. My M1 Macbook Air is a blazing fast dev
| machine for what I do (dockerized full-stack web dev). I
| do sympathize with all the mac hate during the dreaded
| 2016-2020 era. I'm glad I held out and skipped that era
| entirely.
| tmh88j wrote:
| >Apple keyboards are miserable
|
| > I have a Macbook pro I get from work and the keyboard
| on that thing is borderline unusable. With it's weird
| flat keys, no travel, and the elimination of function
| keys for this terrible GUI thing.
|
| You have an older version made sometime between
| 2016-2019. They got rid of the butterfly keyboard for the
| 2020 models.
| masklinn wrote:
| The keys on the new ones still have pretty short travel
| though. Much shorter than the pre-butterfly generation,
| which wasn't very deep in the first place.
|
| I can well understand that people who like / want deep
| key travel would dislike them.
| tmh88j wrote:
| I hate the butterfly keyboard too, but most importantly
| the worthless touchbar is gone and the physical escape
| key is back.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Am I the only one who thinks the touchbar isn't that bad?
| I have a MBP that has the touchbar _and_ a real escape
| key. I 'm a little sad they ditched the touchbar, I wish
| they had kept it but put it above the row of function
| keys. There are some things for which it's handy.
| tmh88j wrote:
| I can't stand the touchbar. Aside from having to look
| down to know what I'm pressing and Monterey introducing
| bugs causing it to disappear forcing me to restart my
| computer, when it does work an entire row of keys
| shouldn't be able to "go to sleep". My media controls
| disappearing because I haven't touched my computer in 60
| seconds or however long it takes is ridiculous. There's
| no way to disable it without hacking together a
| script[1]. It's one of the most frustrating designs of
| any product I've ever used.
|
| 1.
| https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/269174/disable-
| the...
|
| edit - I just timed the sleep functionality. After 60
| seconds it dims, and then 15 seconds later it goes to
| sleep completely....such a horrible implementation
| masklinn wrote:
| Having the touchbar _and_ the function keys would have
| been nice (e.g. if they had kept the function keys half-
| height, possibly with the exception of the escape and
| touchid keys).
|
| However since apple decided that only "either" was an
| option, I'm much happier with having the function keys
| back.
| chociej wrote:
| Agreed. I can't stand the feel of the MBP (16" 2019)
| keyboard. For one thing, it's too far to the right. But I
| also agree with you on the weird flat keys and soft F
| keys. At least mine has a real esc key. And this is
| purely habit & preference, but the control/option/command
| nonsense is infuriating. Everybody else does this the
| right way, get with the program Apple.
| chociej wrote:
| YMMV. Linux on the 2019 16" MBP has a lot of issues that
| make it irritating. It works, but not perfectly by any
| stretch. And yes the machine is nice, except for the
| keyboard, which is probably one of the most important
| parts!
| omginternets wrote:
| Right, but the parent poster is presumably going to spend
| most of his time under linux, at which point a native linux
| box seems like the reasonable choice.
| brimble wrote:
| The OS and first-party software are at least 50% of the
| reason I buy Mac hardware, personally. Safari (+20% battery
| life), Notes (missing a couple features I'd like, but has
| also never crashed or glitched on me in a decade of use,
| so...), Pages, Numbers, Keynote, Digital Color Meter,
| Preview (I _love_ Preview), the excellent and remarkably
| low-latency Terminal, Mail, et c.
|
| Take those away and I'd just go back to buying used Windows
| laptops on Ebay, putting Linux on them, and being sad.
| chociej wrote:
| I get and respect that this is true for some people, but
| goodness, I am exactly the opposite. I find all of their
| builtin software to be irritating and unobvious.
| moreira wrote:
| > Take those away and I'd just go back to buying used
| Windows laptops on Ebay, putting Linux on them, and being
| sad.
|
| Same.
|
| It's also interesting to think of this in terms of the
| real $ value of the OS. If I had to choose between a
| $1000 Windows laptop or a $2000 macOS laptop, I'd still
| go for the macOS laptop, even if they had the same specs.
| The specs of a laptop matter far less to me than the OS
| and surrounding ecosystem.
|
| Same as how a $10K Mac Studio would still be useless for
| gaming. Could have the world's best GPU, and it would
| still have no value to anyone looking for a gaming
| computer.
| brimble wrote:
| I'm really, really not happy about there not being a
| single OS I consider comparable, when it comes to getting
| work done. It's like the rest are all competing with each
| other and macOS is just off doing its own (better) thing,
| while they don't even try to compete with it. I'm
| tentatively hopeful that Google's new OS will be good
| enough to compete--after a couple decades of using
| desktop Linux full-time, then off-and-on, I think its GUI
| model (and by extension those of the BSDs) is just
| fundamentally not capable of producing something _really_
| good. Too fragmented for mostly-bad reasons, whole stack
| 's too big and creaky and Wayland doesn't seem to be
| helping with that very much, having it not just separable
| from but _very_ separate from the base OS causes lots of
| support-related trouble if you try to target it as a
| platform, and so on.
|
| BeOS was nice. Windows could be nice but they decided to
| make it adware and spyware and completely ruin the
| settings screens for no good reason. Sigh.
| boringg wrote:
| Just started notes a couples weeks ago. Fantastic -
| disappointed I missed this for so long. Agree preview is
| great for what it is. Probably should go back to safari
| instead of chrome.
| brimble wrote:
| Notes is great. One time I was like "it'd be nice to put
| a PDF in this note. LOL, bet that won't work" but no, of
| course it did, embedded it exactly like I'd hoped it
| would. Drag & drop, there it is, can view it inline.
|
| The two things that bug me: no markdown support, and no
| built-in export (but the format's simple and well known
| and there are existing 3rd party tools that can do it).
| Everything else is _so_ good and _so_ stable that I 've
| been hesitant to go looking for something else to try to
| fill in those two features. I can live with a formatting
| bar and export being a little annoying if everything else
| is basically perfect.
| jcranberry wrote:
| Safari annoys the heck out of me but I use it for the
| battery life, I would say it's adequate (except when
| stuff only works on Chrome, but not really safaris fault
| as far as I know). I dropped terminal instantly for
| kitty. Preview is the PDF viewer right? Will definitely
| say that thing is amazing.
|
| First thing I did when I got my M1 though is partition
| the drive and dual boot asahi though.
| brimble wrote:
| > Safari annoys the heck out of me but I use it for the
| battery life
|
| I wish it had more and better extensions, but the battery
| life savings and general lighter feel/effect on overall
| system responsiveness is _so_ large that I put up with
| that unless I really _have_ to have better dev tools or
| something. All my normal browsing happens in Safari. Took
| me like 3 years to convert after starting to use Macs, as
| I initially dismissed it, but damn, it 's _way_ lighter
| than FF or Chrome.
|
| > Preview is the PDF viewer right?
|
| It's a lots-of-things viewer, but its PDF support is so
| good that it made me go from hating when something was in
| a PDF, which had been the state of things with every PDF
| viewer I'd ever used since first encountering the format
| some time in the 90s, to _liking_ PDFs. It 's lightweight
| (like most of Apple's tools, I can just leave it in the
| background and forget it's there), crashes are extremely
| rare (maybe one or two in a decade or more of use?), and
| it supports all kinds of nice-to-have stuff like
| compiling a PDF from pages of other PDFs, removing or re-
| ordering pages, signing, light image editing and markup
| capabilities, et c.
| mekster wrote:
| Safari is only good for Netflix for me.
|
| It's inspector is just so different from the rest and you
| can't even have a custom font to be used! because,
| security...
|
| Terminal is almost good but somehow it doesn't vertically
| stretch to 100% height when I automatically hide my dock.
|
| Pages and Numbers are decent but no one else uses it, so
| I have to keep my Office 365 subscription to use Office
| in the browser.
|
| Preview surely is a godsend when other OS can't somehow
| make the same basic app for almost 2 decades? Mail is
| great too unlike Windows' very poor default one.
|
| Windows now looks 10 years behind with no ability to
| catch up to the ARM standard and Linux, well, never.
| brimble wrote:
| > Safari is only good for Netflix for me.
|
| > It's inspector is just so different from the rest and
| you can't even have a custom font to be used! because,
| security...
|
| Yeah, it's far from perfect but it's really light on
| battery and is ~never the cause of beachballs while I'm
| using some other program, neither of which were the case
| with FF or Chrome, for me :-/ My ideal browser doesn't
| exist, but Safari definitely feels closer to it than FF
| or Chrome do. They get all the add-on stuff right, while
| Safari gets the fundamentals right.
|
| > Terminal is almost good but somehow it doesn't
| vertically stretch to 100% height when I automatically
| hide my dock.
|
| Bizarre. I'm a dock-hider (carried over from being a
| start-menu-hider on Windows for years and years) and
| hadn't noticed that. If I open a terminal window and drag
| the bottom down, sure enough, there's a _little bit_ at
| the bottom I can 't get it to go past. Oddly, if I use
| Spectacle to "maximize" it or send it to the left or
| right half of the screen, it manages to go a little lower
| (still not quite all the way!), but then the top has a
| tiny gap, like it's splitting the bottom gap between the
| top and bottom. Thanks, now that will bug me forever :-)
| I wonder if it's got something to do with line height?
|
| > Pages and Numbers are decent but no one else uses it,
| so I have to keep my Office 365 subscription to use
| Office in the browser.
|
| Yeah, it's no Office replacement if you _need_ Office. I
| 'm fortunate that it's just for my own use or for
| generating PDFs. They're like Abiword and Gnumeric on
| Linux (which were what I preferred over the bloated mess
| of OpenOffice on that platform) in that they're
| relatively lightweight but still fairly capable--except
| they don't crash as much and just, you know, work better.
|
| > Preview surely is a godsend when other OS can't somehow
| make the same basic app for almost 2 decades?
|
| It's straight up _stupid_ that Preview can be an actual
| selling point for macOS in the year 2022, and yet, I can
| 't point to a single similar program (or even _just_ a
| PDF reader) on another desktop OS that 's even close to
| it, and I've used tons of them over the years.
| ho_schi wrote:
| This will come with a lot of problems and requires extra
| work. Apple Hardware is not intended by the manufacturer to
| be used as general purpose computer but to run MacOS.
| lazyier wrote:
| No kidding.
|
| I can walk into any office store, plop down 350 dollars,
| and get a laptop that will probably work very well with
| Linux. Any problems I end up hardware-wise is probably
| going to be the same sort of problems I would run into if
| I was running Windows.
|
| With plenty of companies providing great support for
| Linux I don't know why anybody would want to deal with
| Evil Corp Apple and then spend day struggling to get a
| mostly working system. Apple are the people who make a
| living on creating and pedaling spyware ffs.
| uuyi wrote:
| Maybe, maybe not. I'm a Linux person. I run Debian in a UTM
| VM on my MacBook Pro and do all the work in that.
|
| Why? Because the host machine sucks less at all the desktop
| stuff that Linux is horrible at and the VM wins at all the
| server and dev stuff the Mac sucks at.
| mekster wrote:
| Doesn't feel right.
|
| Any OS can virtualize Linux, so the host doesn't really
| matter.
|
| Besides, it's usually the software that matters and not the
| OS.
| no_circuit wrote:
| Developers usually desire a fast platform. While it is true
| most OS hosts can virtualize Linux, there are at least
| three important caveats when considering macOS. The first
| is that the file system performance is poor and chews up
| CPU when using file sharing [1]. The second is that if you
| are targeting x86_64 containers, you'll want to avoid full-
| virtualization and/or the Rosetta x86 to ARM translation
| later. Finally, the third is that if you work in machine
| learning, chances are you use NVIDA on the server, so you
| may want to do simple smoke testing of your containers
| locally, but Apple no longer ships computers with NVIDIA
| graphics cards.
|
| Now some of that is alleviated if you are building non-
| machine learning ARM images, but you may run the risk of
| not having ARM versions of third-party containers you need.
|
| I personally regret not thinking ahead about this and
| buying a MacBook Pro a few years ago. Either with Linux
| directly, or with Windows WSL2, I don't think developers
| need to buy a macOS machine unless they need to build iOS
| or macOS apps. And even then, you can rent time on GitHub-
| hosted Actions macOS runners instead.
|
| [1]: https://docs.docker.com/desktop/mac/#file-sharing
| chociej wrote:
| Virtualization is a far cry, performance and experience
| wise, from running the OS natively.
| mekster wrote:
| What work are you even doing to push virtualization
| performance to its limit?
|
| I cab run a Ubuntu server VM at good performance on
| VMware.
| indiv0 wrote:
| Not anymore. Not on the M1s. They're far and away faster
| than anything but the beefiest desktop. A lua parser
| benchmark I ran in a VM on my M1 beat my 5950X by a
| factor of two.
|
| The only remaining limitation are missing some ARM docker
| containers (which is slowly being solved) and the
| machines not being suitable for ML (in which case you
| need a desktop or to rent server time on the cloud).
| kaladin-jasnah wrote:
| Is this satire?
| mekster wrote:
| As in? I'm serious.
| kaladin-jasnah wrote:
| It is definitely not easier to passthrough an NVIDIA GPU
| that I require for machine learning to a virtual machine
| on an M1 Mac versus just buying a laptop with an NVIDIA
| GPU. I don't even know if M1 supports eGPU, have not
| heard anything about it, and I doubt PCI passthrough or
| whatever you use for eGPUs works on macOS. Sometimes
| hardware does matter, and it glaringly matters (esp.
| w.r.t. CUDA).
|
| Also consider gaming. Considering that GPU virtualization
| is not really a thing still, I cannot imagine, for
| example, gaming being easier on macOS, and the VM
| requires additional setup too.
| indiv0 wrote:
| Just run Linux in a VM! It's my preferred workflow nowadays.
|
| See: https://github.com/mitchellh/nixos-config
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubDMLoWz76U
|
| Only real limitations are lack of ML because no
| server/desktop-grade GPU and some missing ARM-based docker
| containers. But the latter is slowly being resolved and the
| former isn't gonna happen on a laptop anyways.
| gspr wrote:
| > Just run Linux in a VM! It's my preferred workflow
| nowadays.
|
| Or just run it on real hardware! It's my preferred
| workflow.
|
| These two comments of ours are equally pointless.
| indiv0 wrote:
| Alright, then allow me to explain.
|
| Before, there were a multitude of reasons not to develop
| in a VM: Poor support for accelerated instructions on
| laptops; Slow CPUs; limited RAM; slow file-sharing
| between the host and guest.
|
| The M1 architecture solves most of the issues.
|
| Modern laptops almost universally support accelerated
| instructions now. This means less overhead, so doing
| everything _entirely_ in the VM is worth it now. So no
| more dealing with slow file-sharing.
|
| The speed of the M1 also means you're not limited
| compared to your desktop. Depending on the benchmark
| (especially any benchmark relying on CPU cache size), it
| may be faster on the M1 air than on a 5950X. Even in
| workloads where the laptop is slower, it is now fast
| _enough_.
|
| Running docker containers in a VM on a 16GB *non-M1*
| machine is untenable. The M1's RAM is not only higher
| bandwidth and lower latency, but the compression and
| caching has improved so much that you can fit much more
| in that same 16GB.
|
| In use-cases where you need more than 16GB, the M1's NVMe
| disk is so low latency that swap usage is
| indistinguishable in performance from RAM usage. So the
| laptop has no memory limit, for practical purposes
| (though the wear on the disk is increased in this case).
|
| In addition, ARM architectures were a pain to deal with
| before, so most people emulated x86_64 and assume that
| you'd still have to do that on the M1. Nowadays, there is
| no reason not to run an ARM Linux in the VM. Most
| programs run just fine, and the remaining holdouts are a
| few Docker containers that haven't been updated. But even
| those aren't a problem because recent improvements to
| Docker greatly simplify running x86_64 containers under
| QEMU.
|
| Combine all of this with the Mac app ecosystem (which has
| its problems, but is generally OK to use, especially if
| your other devices come from Apple), improved battery,
| the return of the good keyboard, and greatly lowered TDP,
| there really isn't a choice to make anymore.
|
| The remaining reasons _not_ to use it are basically as
| follows:
|
| 1) Compatibility with external devices, or work on
| embedded controllers
|
| 2) Anything requiring significant GPU compute (ML, etc.).
| But this would likely be done on a desktop rather than a
| laptop, which wasn't the scope of the question.
|
| 3) Disk capacity requirements (though external NVMe over
| thunderbolt mostly solves this)
|
| 4) Extremely multi-threaded work (video editing, etc.)
| where a desktop CPU outperforms the M1's multi-thread
| score.
|
| Less pointless now?
| gspr wrote:
| > Less pointless now?
|
| Yeah! Now you added substance. Great!
| neogodless wrote:
| Yes.
|
| I think the way this conversation played out was "given how I
| use my device, is there an optimal device to buy?" A lot of
| the answers are, in turn, "why don't you use your device
| differently? having ignored your use cases and preferences,
| this is the device I'd recommend."
|
| It might be a valid _opinion_ to say "I don't use Linux and
| I enjoy using MacOS on Apple Silicon" but... it doesn't
| actually help the original poster, does it? So why post that
| at all?
|
| I guess I could point out to the poster that I use Windows
| 10, and I built a desktop PC. It doesn't really meet any of
| their criteria (except #3 computing power), but... it works
| for me. So maybe they should change and be more like me!
| jeffwask wrote:
| outcoldman wrote:
| Second this.
|
| If you want a laptop for development - get MacBook. I used to
| be a die-hard Windows guy about 10 years ago. After that
| switched to Linux on my Desktop and used it for a year. When I
| switched job they gave me MBP 2011 model, I hated it. The OS,
| but not the laptop. The new 2015 MBP were complete garbage, but
| I got used to macOS. The M1 laptops are the only laptops I
| would suggest to anybody. The battery life is so amazing, no
| overheating issues, I love it.
|
| My work also depends on Linux, I have my own company, that
| provides tools for monitoring Kubernetes, OpenShift and Docker.
| Only OpenShift is sketchy on arm64, everything else works
| great. https://github.com/lima-vm/lima is a great tool to run
| Linux VM. Also Docker for Mac and Rancher Desktop both work
| perfectly!
|
| But switching to Mac could be a challenge. I was always big fun
| of Thinkpad laptops, especially X1 Carbon. My wife uses it (she
| is Windows geek). But obviously this laptop is a laptop, not a
| computing machine. If you need computing power, just go to
| Costco and get yourself a gaming laptop with good video card
| (3060 would be in your price range). Read this
| https://www.reddit.com/r/GamingLaptops/comments/srxtrx/gamin...
| to see which laptop provides enough power to the graphics card.
| But of course those gaming laptops are more like desktops you
| can easily move. The power bricks are huge, and laptops are
| heavy.
|
| Another option to consider is to get a Desktop, you can buy
| used Workstations/Servers from companies like
| https://tekboost.com/ I got from them 2 x Nvidia Quadro M4000
| 8GB, Dual Xeon E5-2680V4 2.4GHz 14C, 256GB RAM for about 4k.
| For 2k I am sure you can find something that can fit your
| budget.
| fullstackchris wrote:
| > I mean, guys seriously.
|
| But we're serious. OP has created their own nonsensical
| boundaries with these constraints. Essentially the title is
| completely misleading apart from the 2K number. If OP is
| looking specifically for a linux-compatible machine they should
| have at least mentioned that in the title. It's no suprise at
| all that these types of answers are in this thread.
|
| I saw the title, came here to offer my thoughts about mac
| options, when I realize that actually "not allowed" by OP's
| request. It's click baity and almost feels like it was designed
| to get a rise out of the HN crowd.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| Love it!
|
| There's a meaningful title, and a set of perfectly common and
| reasonable requirements in an ordered, clear, explicit
| fashion that we all normally wish requester would follow.
|
| But because some jumped in with their own agenda, and feel
| stifled... now these are "nonsensical boundaries" :->
|
| (Plus, I mean, if somebody wanted a mac... how much advice or
| options do they _need_ ? Want a mac, get a mac. That part of
| equation is not exactly complicated, for better or for worse,
| is it? So let 's not pretend this was _anything_ but zealots
| wanting to chime in :)
|
| You do you, Hacker news :)
| jensensbutton wrote:
| Really? OP should have put every requirement in the title?
| You couldn't have just read the requirements then moved on?
| And because you didn't then OP deserves these nonsense
| responses?
|
| Get a grip.
| s3233323 wrote:
| Linda703 wrote:
| emacs28 wrote:
| One thing that deters me a bit from using macOS is the slower
| docker performance compared to linux. Anyone here have
| workarounds for this?
| chociej wrote:
| I just put linux on the MBP in the end. Much better docker
| experience. I can't believe companies elect to pay for Docker
| Desktop only to have it be so crappy.
| rileymichael wrote:
| Using VirtioFS and the new virtualization framework makes it
| bearable.
| blablabla123 wrote:
| The biggest problem seems to be the slow disk performance
| when working with volumes. At least in personal projects I
| could make this fast by making use of Docker's caching in
| creative ways. E.g. first copying the package deps,
| installing them and afterwards copying the (often changing)
| source. Also sometimes when a volume is needed it can be
| enough to make it a single file volume.
| unilynx wrote:
| If your work is even a bit I/O sensitive, avoid mounting OSX
| folders and use named volume mounts. They are _much_ faster
| as they don 't cross the virtualisation boundary but you need
| to be careful to not destroy them if they contain data you
| wanted to keep
|
| For me personally, disable the new virtualization framework
| and gfuse options. I hope they're working better for others,
| but I'm not seeing any benefits yet and CPU usage dropped
| significantly after disabling these
| hk__2 wrote:
| What's your use-case? I have no issue with Docker perf on
| macOS ...because I don't have anything Docker-based that's
| perf-intensive.
| oauea wrote:
| > Anyone here have workarounds for this?
|
| Sure, use Linux.
| fernandotakai wrote:
| that's what i did until the company i work for made me use
| a macbook :(
|
| now i have to deal with horrible performance everywhere
| because of falcon agent and docker.
| bodge5000 wrote:
| The one big thing thats always deterred me from Macs is the
| poor ecosystem for gaming. I dont play a lot of games anymore,
| but its a pretty reliable way of getting some much needed
| socialising in so I probably wouldn't want to lose it
| completely.
|
| The problem is most workarounds I've seen are either to severly
| limit the games I can play or to get another computer/console
| for playing games, which just seems to be turning one problem
| into two. You can't even dualboot anymore, now that we have M1.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| I use a console for gaming and a Mac for a daily driver. I
| never really got into PC gaming, though, I've always felt
| like the console experience was better. At least for the
| games I enjoy playing.
| bodge5000 wrote:
| I'd love to get a console, it'd make things so much easier
| (pretty much any bog standard laptop would work for me
| otherwise), but none of my friends are on console
| dionian wrote:
| i use a pc for gaming and mac for dev
| banal00 wrote:
| These posts are annoying, IMO. Reviews and blogs posts about
| them are everywhere by like minded readers, and this is the
| discourse such posts bubble up every time here.
|
| Guys. I mean. Seriously. It's a laptop. It's not worth a
| request for comments every week.
| kellogs_aran wrote:
| Hi. OP here.
|
| I _did_ do some reading before posting. Here are some of the
| threads I had read before:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21302412
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28861949
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28216287
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28023345
|
| None of the threads seemed to have a consensus e.g. some
| swear by the Dell XPS 13, others say the laptop has been a
| crap experience more or less. Others still prefer Lenovo
| Thinkpad variants, and _even_ these have those who 've had
| negative experiences. I was hoping for a winner of some sort
| or at least a list of recommended laptops that I can bookmark
| and spend time reading reviews of. Hope that makes sense and
| sorry for the inconvenience caused.
| pflanze wrote:
| I'm happy for your post (I might be about to look into
| deciding for a laptop, too, and unlike general review sites
| the discussion here is centred on the use for a particular
| community we're part of), and honestly I find JabavuAdams'
| post pretty toxic (it does elicit more heated arguments).
| The annoying thing here in my view is this sub-thread, not
| your post.
| banal00 wrote:
| acomjean wrote:
| Reviews are hard. Nobody agrees on anything, and some
| people have very strong options about certain things
| (trackpads, keyboards g that little mouse nub between the g
| an h keys)..
|
| I have a system76 oryx pro running pop os. It's older now
| (8th gen intel). Works well, though I had a fan start
| grinding, it was an easy replacement. The machine is a
| clevo so replacement parts are easy to get. I like it. My
| previous home machine was a 2014 Mac book. Oryx is bigger,
| faster, heavier. The build quality isn't as good as the Mac
| but it decent. It has nvidia graphics which even run games.
| Battery life isn't great, especially when running the
| nvidia card (you can switch to intel graphics ). It
| upgrades the os easily unless like me you do so manual
| stuff.. system 76 support is good (part of what you pay a
| premium for)
|
| I just got work to buy a new system 76 machine for me. The
| amd laptop model "pangolin". I like it so far.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > None of the threads seemed to have a consensus
|
| That probably answers your question ;-). Along with the
| fact that you found multiple previous discussions. There is
| no consensus to be had, everyone will have their own
| particular definition of 'good' and the variance is so wide
| that you'll just have to figure it out for yourself.
| [deleted]
| fortran77 wrote:
| Proper response 1: Ignore this whole thread.
| hatware wrote:
| I don't think they said they've had problems with Macs. They
| simply said their intention is not to use Windows or Mac OS. To
| me, that still leaves room to recommend a Mac.
|
| It's not a cult, it's the free market at work.
| raffraffraff wrote:
| Nitpick: he said he didn't want to use _MacOS_ , which doesn't
| necessarily rule out a MacBook. I hate MacOS but my personal
| laptop is a 2015 MacBook Pro running MX Linux, and I love it.
| [deleted]
| FrozenSynapse wrote:
| Macbook Pro sucks, I cannot remember a laptop that is hotter
| (and throttles) than my current mac, and it's expensive
| ecf wrote:
| > Reasonable response
|
| I scrolled down pretty far and didn't see a single top-level
| comment anywhere close to what you're describing about people
| blindly advocating Macs.
|
| Maybe you joined early, but comments like yours bringing up a
| problem that doesn't exist is PART of the problem you're
| complaining about.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Some thoughts:
|
| 1. I have heard only good things about Framework. If I were
| getting a laptop today, that would be on my short-list
|
| 2. I have had an HP zBook 15 G3 for many years now, so no issue
| with durability there. However, I just tried to price one and the
| price has gone _way_ up, so it 's out of the $2k range for
| anything reasonably configured for developer use.
|
| 3. Battery life; if it's going to be mostly plugged in, select
| the option in the BIOS for that; it will stop charging the
| battery sooner to increase longevity of the battery. If it's
| going to be use unplugged a lot, try to keep it above 20%. Ignore
| any advice about fully draining the battery to prevent "memory
| effect" that was dubious advice even for NiCd batteries that
| could potentially suffer from memory effect and was never true
| for LiIon chemistries.
| Doubtme wrote:
| 2022 12th gen intel
|
| Asus rog strix
|
| You'll thank me later
| lukeholder wrote:
| With linux?
| flashfaffe2 wrote:
| Have you checked frame.work?
|
| They offer fully customisable laptop where each pieces can be
| replace.
|
| Ps: I've just bought mine and tested it for few days so should
| take my view with a pinch of salt but so far the laptop is inline
| with my expectations.
|
| You can check some reviews on YouTube as well.
|
| https://youtu.be/jmgBwMHpP1w
| martibravo wrote:
| Asus TUF Dash Gaming 15 user here: I cannot recommend it enough.
|
| - Intel i7 H series processor (best mobile Intel chips)
|
| - Upgradeable RAM (currently at 24GB) - Intel Wifi 6
|
| - Nvidia RTX 3060
|
| - FullHD Screen with 144Hz
|
| - Comfortable keyboard with backlight
|
| - Two M.2 slots, laptop came with 500GB but added an extra 2TB.
|
| - Good connecticity: HDMI, Ethernet, 3 full-size USBA 3.1 ports,
| 1 Thunderbolt port.
|
| - Laptop runs on a 200W brick with a barrel connector, but on the
| go I plug it to a USBC 100W charger, works flawlessly.
|
| - Good build quality: back of screen is aluminum, laptop itself
| is made with plastic with no deck flex or other problems.
|
| - Only deal-breaker, not for me though, is the lack of webcam. I
| have a small USB one that attaches to the screen when needed.
|
| Battery life is around 9h for me doing Node.js backend
| development with VSCode, Firefox with +40tabs, PostgreSQL and
| Docker running the server running locally. It lasts longer with
| the screen set to 60Hz and tinkering with the power settings to
| disable the Nvidia card when only doing CPU-intensive jobs.
|
| Best of all: I only paid EUR999 ($1,081 taxes included) for it on
| Amazon Spain. Plus the SSD and extra RAM.
| geekifier wrote:
| That 1080p screen would be hard to get used to after working on
| crisp MBP screens. Especially when staring at text all day.
|
| The rest of the laptop _does_ look great for the price.
| martibravo wrote:
| AFAIK there are/were some 1440p versions available in the US.
| I'm from Europe so I didn't see them.
| usr1106 wrote:
| It takes a day or 2 and you are used to the lower resolution
| again. It's not that the visible pixels would hinder
| readability. It's all psychological: Those who feel that nice
| looking fonts are important will be hard to convince.
| Probably also a status symbol for some. I prefer longer
| battery life and generally hate products and vendors wasting
| resources. I got HiDPI on my work laptop, but would switch
| back to a lower resolution any day. Use it regularly in other
| setups.
| tacker2000 wrote:
| Looks good but the deal breaker here is the screen. 1920x1080
| is just not enough these days.
| philliphaydon wrote:
| I won't buy a laptop without 16:10 aspect ratio now.
| zeppelin101 wrote:
| Agreed, definitely. It's a game-changer.
| martibravo wrote:
| I'm had a Retina 2015 MBP before, and with Windows/Gnome set
| to 100% Scaling I get the same screen real estate as an MBP
| with default settings. Screen has a high sRGB percentage and
| colors look vibrant and crisp.
|
| To be honest, I would trade 2K for 144Hz again. It's so good.
| l30n4da5 wrote:
| lol, all I have are 1080p screens.
| tasuki wrote:
| That's just your opinion...
|
| I have good eyesight, yet prefer 1920x1080 in my laptops:
|
| - Larger resolutions are a significant battery drain.
|
| - Larger resolutions are more GPU intensive, taking away
| precious system resources.
| martibravo wrote:
| Also, the fact that this is a 15.6-inch display enables me
| to set zoom on VS Code and Firefox to 90%, still able to
| read everything but with more estate. I had an MBP Retina
| before and for the life of me I don't miss the extra
| pixels. I do miss the 16:10 aspect ratio, though.
| cercatrova wrote:
| Laptops with greater than 1080p screens just take up battery
| for no discernable benefit at those screen sizes.
| Nathanael_M wrote:
| Both of these comments are ditches alongside the road of
| truth. 4k on a laptop is not necessary, but it is
| noticeable and sometimes valuable. I have a 4K laptop
| screen and I like it a lot. I have a 1080p monitor and I
| notice the resolution (mostly on text), but I'm plenty
| productive with it.
| princevegeta89 wrote:
| Is it running Linux? What OS? What is your experience with it?
| daenney wrote:
| The problem I run into with a lot of these is that their screens
| aren't great. 1080p@60Hz and usually pretty terrible brightness
| makes them a bad fit for me as a travel companion, or even just
| working from my garden. It's also annoying that some keep
| insisting on a barrel connector for charging instead of
| leveraging the USB-C port.
|
| As much as I appreciate the privacy and freedom enhancing aspects
| of some of these devices, ultimately a device that's more
| practical for me in day to day usage wins out.
|
| That generally leaves me with a more established manufacturer.
| Lenovo Thinkpad and Ideapad have options in this area and run
| Linux just fine. Dell XPSes are good too, though I wish they'd
| offer an AMD option. HP Envy/Spectre devices are rather decent
| too, though getting the touchscreen and sensors to work on these
| can be fiddly because HP compensates for their broken BIOS
| through the Windows drivers instead of just fixing shit.
| drusepth wrote:
| One small note on the screen (especially wrt travel and/or OP's
| requirement for a good battery life): "worse" screens will
| often give significantly better battery life. I downgraded my
| 4K/60 to a 1080/60 on purpose and tripled my battery life on
| otherwise-identical specs (3 to 9 hours on two Razer Blade
| Stealth models).
|
| Great points, though. Especially brightness -- even if you
| don't need all those nits for day-to-day use, they're great to
| have as an option when you do! Don't skimp on the screen specs
| that matter to you.
| Avalaxy wrote:
| > Dell XPSes are good too
|
| Be very careful. They are very good laptops, and Dell's
| customer support for businesses is stellar, but the XPS
| machines play VERY bad with Linux. There are some XPS machines
| that are shipped with linux, so they should be fine. But most
| of them have wifi/bluetooth chips that have no support at all,
| or very bad support.
| daenney wrote:
| I've owned two generations of them and exclusively run Linux
| on them (I think the 2016 and 2018 releases). One of them was
| a Developer Edition from work, but the other one was a
| generic store bought. Never had any issues with WiFi or
| Bluetooth.
|
| I've always run distributions with kernel releases that
| aren't months or years behind upstream, which might have
| helped as far as hardware support goes.
| mrslave wrote:
| XPS 13 usually has good Linux compatibility. But XPS with 15"
| screen can be a bit of trouble to get all the hardware
| working under Linux.
| sirwitti wrote:
| Having used 2 XPS13 (9343 and 9370) as my daily driver for
| years, this is simply not true in my experience.
|
| On my 9343 bluetooth did not work initially, and on the 9370
| the fingerprint reader is not available (no driver
| available), but apart from that linux is just working - and
| I'm not particular fond of spending time on setting things
| up.
|
| Much more of an issue is that the xps, as every non apple
| computer does not support s3 sleep anymore. So just closing
| the lid and putting it in a bag can lead to overheating and
| battery drain.
|
| Honestly I don't get, why we can't have decent power
| management unless you buy a mac.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| My xps had normal sleep untill s bios uodate removed ut. I
| eas wondering if this gave me grounds for a lawsuit
| Avalaxy wrote:
| > Having used 2 XPS13 (9343 and 9370) as my daily driver
| for years, this is simply not true in my experience.
|
| That's good to hear for you, but I'm not just making this
| up. I have the XPS 13 9310 which mostly comes with the
| AX500 chip for wifi and bluetooth.
|
| - For about half a year it had NO support in Ubuntu (non-
| existent drivers)
|
| - Then it finally got drivers, but it was extremely
| unstable. After an automatic update from ubuntu, the wifi
| no longer worked and it took several weeks for it to be
| fixed.
|
| - The bluetooth VERY often won't turn on after a reboot,
| requiring me to reboot about 5 times before it finally
| works.
|
| - Same for wifi, even on the latest drivers it often can't
| find any networks.
|
| - Some networks can't be found by the linux drivers. No
| problems at all under windows, with the same laptop.
|
| - Crashes or freezes of the whole OS as a result of these
| drivers.
|
| There's probably a ton more issues that I'm forgetting...
| uberduper wrote:
| I have a 9310 32gb model with the ax500. With a 5.17
| kernel and the
| WLAN.HST.1.0.1-05266-QCAHSTSWPLZ_V2_TO_X86-1 ath11k
| firmware, the machine has been flawless. Well maybe not
| the fingerprint reader.. i installed some updates and
| that broke but I never really used it so I haven't
| bothered trying to fix it.
|
| Oh and make sure you configure the nvme to AHCI in the
| bios. The intel raid stuff is trash and causes major
| battery / suspend issues in my experience.
|
| https://github.com/kvalo/ath11k-firmware/tree/master/QCA6
| 390
| jhoward321 wrote:
| I mean that sounds like problems with one wifi card which
| can be swapped out for about $30. Swap it out for
| something like the ax200 and I bet those problems go away
| pizza234 wrote:
| Dell XPS has a Linux-specific line, called "Developer
| edition", which is intended to be Linux-compatible (it can be
| indeed be configured with Ubuntu on purchase).
|
| Their compatibility is not as good as they say (it needs a
| couple of tweaks, one of which is crucial, otherwise the
| machine eats batteries while on standby), but it's still
| decent. Definitely not "VERY bad".
| plainnoodles wrote:
| I have an XPS 13 9310. What's this crucial tweak? I've been
| running it on a vanilla Arch install for about a year and
| haven't noticed much battery drain on standby (maybe a few
| % per day left sleeping?)
| pizza234 wrote:
| The bug is this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+sourc
| e/linux/+bug/1808957. Battery draining overnight - yikes!
|
| It's possible that Arch ships with the workaround/fix by
| default.
| danieldk wrote:
| _Dell XPSes are good too_
|
| Unless you plan to put them into a bag or backpack suspended:
|
| _With regards to transporting your laptop in a bag or
| backpack, safety should be your primary concern. You should
| always turn the laptop OFF [...] Under no circumstances should
| you leave a laptop powered on and in any sleep
| /hibernate/standby mode when placed in a bag, backpack, or in
| an overhead bin. The laptop will overheat as a result of that
| action._
|
| https://www.dell.com/community/XPS/FAQ-Modern-Standby/td-p/7...
| uberduper wrote:
| This is true of any laptop. I've cooked a 2012 macbook pro in
| a backpack because suspend didn't work right.
| weberer wrote:
| There's a BIOS setting you have to change in a lot of laptops
| nowadays. The default, power hungry sleep mode is usually
| labeled "S1" or "Windows modern standby". True sleep mode is
| often labeled "S3" or "Linux", confusingly enough.
| danieldk wrote:
| If it's an AMD laptop or older Intel. Intel has
| deprecated/removed S3 support in Tiger Lake-U:
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/System76/comments/k0fm7z/system76_
| l...
| FormFollowsFunc wrote:
| It's a problem with Windows. I've a dual boot MacBook Pro and
| I run into that issue only when I put the laptop to sleep
| when running Windows. I don't have the issue when running
| MacOS. You would think after 30 years Microsoft would figure
| out how to keep a computer asleep.
| fortran77 wrote:
| If you run it on supported hardware it works just fine. The
| Macbook Pro is simply not open enough for Windows or Linux
| to support it.
| noisem4ker wrote:
| Past, informative discussion:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28639952&p=2
| ajennings wrote:
| I bought a Librem 15 before the 14 existed. I was very happy with
| it (including battery life/suspend) for about a year and used it
| with Linux as my daily driver. Then hardware started to fail and
| now it freezes randomly. (I've replaced the memory. Must be the
| mainboard?)
|
| Maybe I was unlucky. Also, the 14 may be more reliable.
|
| After that, I almost bought a Librem 14, but I took a chance on
| the Framework. The only real problem is battery life/suspend, but
| it's annoying enough that I can't bring myself to use it as a
| daily driver.
| shultays wrote:
| Why the number goes backward?
| ajennings wrote:
| Screen size. They had a 13 and 15.
|
| Now they just sell their second-generation flagship, the 14.
| bobobob420 wrote:
| dell lattitude. getting a framework laptop when you need
| something proper and reliable is how you screw yourself.
| bo1024 wrote:
| Purism Librem 14
|
| Is my daily driver currently running Linux mint.
|
| - overall very happy with it for my uses. I don't do a lot of
| intense workloads on the laptop, mostly stuff like text editing
| and latex compiling.
|
| - battery is great. With screen brightness reasonably low and
| working on low intensity tasks, I could get 8 hours I think
| pretty easily. Probably 3 hours of video calls.
|
| - durability is good so far. My librem 13 lasted about 4 years
| before succumbing to a hinge issue which I believe has been
| addressed for the 14s
|
| - ergonomics are good for me, trackpad keyboard etc. are great
| especially once you get used to them.
|
| - expect some challenges if you're going to run a different
| distro. Be prepared to put in some effort. Things are probably
| better now it's been out longer.
|
| - due to foss requirements the wifi range isn't the greatest. You
| can easily and cheaply switch out the card if you want.
|
| - One issue I had was plugging in a certain external dock to the
| usb c port and the entire computer shuts off immediately.
|
| - not sure how it fares for intense compute tasks. I rarely get
| any fan noise but sometimes it will kick in noticeably.
|
| I also echo others that, depending on the battery life situation,
| take another look at framework. I haven't put a ton of hours on
| it yet but a very pleasant machine.
| ryukafalz wrote:
| Also using a Librem 14 as my daily driver but less happy with
| it.
|
| The machine seems to lose track of its charge level pretty
| easily, so it tends to power off suddenly, especially if it's
| been in sleep mode for a while.
|
| The hinge feels a bit flimsy; I'm hoping it'll hold up long-
| term but there's some give to it that makes me a bit nervous
| about its longevity.
|
| The keyboard has been disappointing; my experience with it has
| been that it doesn't register key presses until just _after_
| the tactile bump. Suffice to say this has led to a lot of
| missing keystrokes and frustration.
|
| Also, something (I think some wires) seems to catch on one of
| the fans on the underside, leading to a rather annoying noise
| (and I suspect reduced fan performance) when any pressure is
| placed on the bottom panel. I've cracked it open to see if I
| can shift things around a bit, but the cable routing is tight
| enough that I'm not confident I can without damaging something.
|
| I really wanted to like the Librem 14, because it's goals
| really resonate with me, but... it isn't as polished as I'd
| hoped it would be.
| bo1024 wrote:
| Bummer, sad to hear that. Thanks for sharing
| kop316 wrote:
| Second a Purism librem 14. It is a really high quality design,
| the SW support is fantastic, and it is easy to repair.
| ibejoeb wrote:
| Do you have the 3-cell or the 4-cell battery?
|
| > expect some challenges if you're going to run a different
| distro.
|
| There are some battery life/suspend issues that seem to be
| rooted in the disabled intel ME. I'll have to track it down,
| but I recall purism trying to get a kernel patch upstream from
| their PureOS. It surfaced on Arch, but I haven't seen it on
| Qubes, which is their other first-class OS.
|
| > trackpad keyboard etc. are great especially once you get used
| to them.
|
| N.B., they only offer US qwerty. The keys have quite a bit of
| travel, which is fine for me. The thing that really still gives
| me some grief is the mini shift key. If you're a right-pinky
| shifter, you're going to need to stretch. If you miss, you've
| hit up-arrow and now you're typing on the wrong line.
|
| The speakers are perhaps the worst I've ever heard. Doesn't
| bother me because I never use them, but on that note, bluetooth
| is a little tricky out of the box since pureos doesn't ship a
| driver. Not sure if another distro just works.
|
| Also, as mentioned elsewhere, it's really simple to take apart,
| upgrade, fix, etc. No torx, glue, or esoteric fasteners. I
| dumped 64gb ram in it for like $200 and it took about 3
| minutes.
| bo1024 wrote:
| 4 cell battery.
|
| Don't recall hitting the battery life issues, at least in a
| long time. I do remember having to install some packages
| about battery management but it wasn't tricky. This is the
| one thing Framework really trails on for me.
|
| Speakers - agree they're not great but I think some of that
| has to do with the default EQ, see
| https://forums.puri.sm/t/better-eq-for-
| librem-14-speakers/13... I don't know what the current status
| is, they're ok for me on Mint but my standards are low.
|
| Bluetooth - worked easily for me on Mint.
| drusepth wrote:
| Razer's a bit overpriced (a la Mac) but I really like the build
| quality and the specs are typically great. My current Razer Blade
| Stealth was about $2000 and has worked flawlessly for about a
| year now (and my previous RBS worked flawlessly for about 3 years
| before I cracked the screen by stepping on it in the night).
|
| Everything works OOTB on Linux. Battery life is around 9 hours or
| 5-6 with my full stack running and everything always feels snappy
| (I use 16 workspaces, so I typically have a TON open). Keyboard
| feels amazing, the chassis is probably the sturdiest one I've
| ever had (might be metal but doesn't get hot), and I prefer the
| touchpad over the mac one, which everyone seems to hold as a gold
| standard for some reason.
| theodric wrote:
| Frame.work
| dark-star wrote:
| If you really have $2k to spend on a laptop, then a Mac is
| probably a safe bet. All developers I know that use one are very
| happy with it, although I don't have one personally so I can't
| offer first-hand experience.
|
| OTOH, I am more than happy with my Dell laptop. A slightly older
| Latitude. Everything works out of the box (I run Manjaro on it),
| even the WWAN, keyboard lights, card reader, etc. And you can get
| replacement parts (battery, screen, keyboard) for years since
| those laptops are so common.
| kfrzcode wrote:
| https://frame.work
| dirwiz wrote:
| I imagine everyone's answer will begin with "It depends". I can
| only give you feedback on my workflow & setup.
|
| My dev hardware is an external SSD (USB3) running Debian. I
| virtualized my dev environment using qemu/kvm.
|
| I have several old laptops with no hard drives stationed at
| various offices. I just plug in, boot from the SSD and off to the
| races.
|
| If I need a laptop while traveling, I just pull from the old
| laptops pile and remove it's hard drive. Good to go.
|
| I do have minimum specs for the hardware: 1TB Samsung SSD (be
| sure the cable supports TRIM!) 16GB Memory (Virtualization)
| nVidia graphics (hard to find those non-hybrid types) decent
| screen size.
|
| In addition to normal backups of the host & VM, I do a weekly
| image of the VM. This helps greatly against damage/loss of the
| SSD.
|
| Hope this helps
| brink wrote:
| I've been using a Dell XPS 13" 9310 for a year now with Endeavour
| OS/Gnome. It's perfect, IMO.
| rubyist5eva wrote:
| I would get a System76 Lemur Pro with whatever upgrades for your
| budget, or whatever other form factor that suits your tastes
| really.
| blumomo wrote:
| Another Lemur Pro owner. Short essence: Casing quality is
| rather poor, if you like "used look" after 6 months, you may
| actually enjoy it. Wears off very fast. However being able to
| modify their firmware (I remapped quite some keys) and given
| that the battery can run up to 2 business days, I'd consider
| buying this device again. No hardware/software (using their
| Pop_OS!) issues since using for it 15 months now. Ah, and I
| like how slim and light weight it is (roughly 1kg).
| dbatten wrote:
| Lemur Pro owner here. I personally have super-mixed feelings
| about the machine.
|
| Pros: Battery life is excellent. Used it for 12 hours while
| walking around a factory doing an IT system install, never had
| to charge it. Slim form factor is nice. With an upgrade to an
| i7, additional RAM, SSD, etc., performance is good for any task
| not requiring a GPU. It would easily be the best laptop I've
| ever owned, except for...
|
| Cons: WiFi chipset died within months of purchase and had to be
| replaced. Battery swelled by year 2 to the point that the mouse
| was unusable, so battery had to be replaced as well. The
| machine shipped with Ubuntu 20.04 LTS, which had a Linux kernel
| bug that caused the machine to freeze when trying to throttle
| up/down the i7 CPU for power management purposes. I contacted
| System76 about the problem, and they didn't know anything about
| it... I ended up having to troubleshoot it myself, at which
| point I told them the issue, and they sent out an email about
| the fix to (what I assume was) all Lemur Pro owners. I thought
| buying a Linux laptop from a company that specializes in making
| Linux laptops would let me avoid these kinds of nagging issues
| around things like drivers and power management bugs, but alas
| it did not. More startlingly, I would have expected a company
| that specializes in Linux laptops to at least be AWARE of such
| an issue on their machines, but it seems they had no idea... I
| feel like I would have been just as well off going with a
| Thinkpad.
|
| Related final pro: It was frustrating to have to replace
| multiple parts in this machine (especially so early in its
| life), but I have to give credit to System76's self-install
| policy. They sent me the parts and detailed instructions for
| doing the repairs myself. Saved so much headache.
|
| Overall, I really want to love my System76, but I'd have to
| think really hard before buying another one.
| kfrzcode wrote:
| What does "a bit beta" mean?
| indymike wrote:
| I've been running Ubuntu on an LG Gram 17. Huge screen (true
| 17"), 18 hour battery and weighs Les than 4 lbs. It also has a
| metal chassis. Only device that doesn't work is the fingerprint
| reader.
| gnfargbl wrote:
| Another very happy LG Gram / Linux user here. Fingerprint
| reader seems to work for me, running Ubuntu 22.04.
| indymike wrote:
| so... I upgraded to 22.04... and the reader now works.
| antongribok wrote:
| One more very satisfied user of an LG Gram 17. A beautiful LG
| 2560x1600 screen, amazing (also LG) battery life, less than 3
| lbs.
|
| I really like the keyboard and touchpad, more so than on a Mac
| (but that's very personal). The RAM can be upgraded to 40 GB,
| and there is a second M.2 slot if you want disk mirroring or
| striping.
|
| I run Fedora and have zero problems. (I generally upgrade 3
| months after a release.)
|
| The model that I have has a 72 Wh battery and newer 17 and 16
| inch models now come with an 80 Wh battery. Mine is 3 years old
| now and it's aged much better than I expected. I can watch a 4K
| movie over a network CephFS mount and after 2 hours, my battery
| is at 80%.
|
| I bought it on a whim at Costco, and I seriously think I'll get
| another one next time (maybe a 16"). Costco drops the prices to
| $350-$400 off every few months, and they're a steal for what
| you get.
| pliuchkin wrote:
| I've got a LG Gram 16" running with Fedora. Loving it.
| lazerl0rd wrote:
| MSI Creator Z16[P]
|
| You should be able to disable the dGPU if you have no need for
| it, within the BIOS, to improve battery life.
|
| As for why I recommend it?
|
| 1) It has a thin, MacBook-esque aluminium chassis.
|
| 2) A choice of two biometrics - Fingerprint and Facial (the
| latter works with Howdy on Linux).
|
| 3) The processor is a 11th (Z16) or 12th Gen. (Z16P) Intel Core
| i9. The former uses 3200MHz DDR4 AND the latter uses DDR5.
|
| 4) They both sport a RTX 30 Series dGPU for creative work or
| gaming.
|
| 5) MSI has decent Linux support historically, for their laptops
| at least.
|
| 6) MSI laptops feature a "hidden BIOS" which exposes hundreds of
| options and toggles (from undervolting and over locking, to
| tuning PCIe slot power limits). This is quite helpful at times.
|
| 7) It has a panel that pretty much ticks all the boxes except
| HDR: a good resolution of QHD, high colour accuracy ([?]E < 2), a
| high refresh rate (either 120Hz or 165Hz), as well as touch
| support.
|
| 8) It sports RGB keyboard backlighting, if that's your thing.
|
| 9) It has a great selection of ports, with one (Z16P) or two
| (Z16) Thunderbolt 4 ports and two USB [Type-A] 10GBps ports.
|
| 10) MSI laptops of this size usually sport two NVMe slots, for
| expansion. You could even use one slot for a Google Coral.
| Furthermore, the included NVMes from MSI that I've had have been
| "top-tier" in terms of throughput.
| Volrath89 wrote:
| I've been very satisfied with a Thinkpad E15, AMD Ryzen 7, 32GB
| of RAM, 1 TB SSD. Costed $1800
|
| Before that I had another thinkpad that served me well for 5
| years. It was actually still going strong but I figured out I
| wanted to upgrade before the coming Taiwan crisis just in case.
| Now I plan to own this laptop for hopefully a decade
| egberts1 wrote:
| A good laptop is one without the UEFI.
|
| Un-socketable, solder-on BIOS chip.
| pfooti wrote:
| dell xps laptops are (a) pretty nice and (b) do ship in some
| models with ubuntu as the main OS.
|
| personally, i use an xps15/windows/WSL, mainly because i also use
| the laptop for video games and so on.
| jackson1442 wrote:
| If you're already planning to use Linux daily, the Framework is a
| solid choice. I personally sent mine back (because of that "beta"
| feel), but it was more the software than the hardware- I am a Mac
| user and expected Linux desktop to just be a bit better than it
| is today.
|
| The Framework hardware is easily my favorite laptop hardware
| (aside from Apple, but really they're a different category than
| Framework).
| tommyage wrote:
| www.tuxedocomputers.com I never had hand on them yet, but they
| appear very promising.
| number6 wrote:
| I am using this one from 2018:
| https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/de/Linux-Hardware/Linux-Note...
| Which is a https://clevo-computer.com/en/clevo-
| pa70ep6-g/pa71ep6-g in fact.
|
| It is an excellent laptop, but more on the side of a
| workstation than on the side of mobility
| sethgoodluck wrote:
| tl;dr: Find a used T480s for like $500. Upgrade its RAM and
| replace its battery if you need. Install PopOS and Regolith PPA.
| You'll be a happy camper.
|
| ---- MORE: Librems looked pretty cool. I might get one next.
|
| But I've been running my T480s since 2018 and it is still going
| strong, I don't imagine I'll replace it unless I drop it on hard
| ground... wait I've done that. or spill coffee on it... wait I
| did that too. Did I mention they were durable as heck?
|
| For software: I run PopOS for ubuntu-easy software and
| compatbility with a Regolith PPA because i3 window managers are
| amazing. Since its a thinkpad, you can swap out and replace most
| parts easily including the battery when it eventually wears out
| (literally takes <10 minutes).
| algem wrote:
| I like the lenovo thinkpads as an alternative to macbook pro.
|
| I find their track pad similar to the macbook pro.
|
| Their performance is good enough and they are pretty durable.
|
| Asus is also nice but i think it's really hit or miss with them.
| BuckRogers wrote:
| I don't know about Linux support, as I would use WSL, but I love
| Samsung laptops that have the S-Pen. It's Wacom EMR tech, which
| is the best you can get for a stylus and the only place to get it
| on the PC side that I know of. Other than a standalone Wacom
| digitizer of course.
|
| I also have a Thinkpad X1 Xtreme and it's solid, but nothing to
| write home about. If going for that, I'd compare (in person) with
| the latest Dell stuff. Otherwise, I'd go Samsung for me.
| fy20 wrote:
| A few years ago I would have said ThinkPads but I think there are
| better options available now. At the end of last year I wanted to
| replace my T470, and wanted to upgrade to something with a more
| powerful (not U-series) CPU. The ThinkPad option that fitted my
| requirements was on back order for months, so I looked around...
|
| The ASUS ROG line of gaming laptops had exactly what I wanted,
| although they look a bit garish, they are good value for what you
| get.
|
| On Black Friday I got a G14 Zephyrus with a 8c16t Ryzen 9, 16GB
| RAM, 1TB SSD and 14" FHD IPS screen. I think I paid PS1300.
| There's a free RAM slot, so I upgraded to 32GB, I think it
| supports 48GB max. There are a couple of gotcha's mind you:
|
| - It came with a WiFi chip with poor support for Linux (and it
| wasn't great on Windows). I got an Intel one from eBay for PS10
| and it took a few minutes to swap out.
|
| - You need to restart X to switch from hybrid to integrated
| graphics, which you want to do on battery to save power.
|
| - You need to restart X to switch from integrated to hybrid
| graphics, which you want to do when you get back to your desk so
| you can use a USB-C display.
|
| - The default fan curves mean the fan turns on and off every few
| seconds. I changed the settings so it is off most of the time and
| it runs fine.
|
| - The powerbrick that comes with it is heavy. I use a 65W USB-C
| brick and have no issues for working, but for gaming (it has a
| RTX 3060) it needs more power.
|
| - The model I have has no webcam, that's fixed in this year's
| modem.
|
| Everything else works great. Battery life is 5-6 hours as
| standard, but if you disable turbo boost and you can get closer
| to 10 hours.
| remram wrote:
| The one with the LEDs on the lid? Do those work on Linux?
| allisdust wrote:
| For Linux to fix the WiFi card, you can use any distro with
| latest kernel. A lot of hardware support issues on Linux are
| due to slow release distros like Ubuntu (and a lot of people
| not knowing this assume it's due to lack of drivers in mainline
| Linux). I use fedora and everything works out of the box
| following the asus-fedora website.
| brobinson wrote:
| Are you able to run X/Wayland off of the Intel GPU and leave
| the Nvidia GPU free for CUDA usage on that setup?
| synergy20 wrote:
| I never figured out how to toggle graphics between intel
| integrated and nvidia gpu as I also want to use nvidia gpu
| fully for CUDA algorithms, is there an app or something to do
| that?
| unpixer wrote:
| I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but I use
| the system76-power extension (https://github.com/pop-
| os/system76-power) to toggle between the integrated Intel
| Xe unit and the dedicated Nvidia GeForce GTX 1650 in my
| Galago Pro. While at first glance it might seem that it's a
| System76 utility for a System76 distribution on System76
| hardware, I'm currently using it on Fedora, and the
| hardware itself should be pretty standard despite the
| System76 branding. Using the glxgears graphics demo, I can
| invoke 'glxgears -info' to use the Intel GPU, or
| '__NV_PRIME_RENDER_OFFLOAD=1
| __GLX_VENDOR_LIBRARY_NAME=nvidia glxgears -info' to force
| use of the dGPU. You don't get the fancy-shmancy menu that
| you do under Pop!_OS, but it has a perfectly workable CLI.
| synergy20 wrote:
| great, looking into them now.
| hurflmurfl wrote:
| Another happy user of G14 here. I'm running the 2021 version
| with Ryzen 5900HS, 32Gb of RAM and 1440p screen. The screen is
| good, the laptop is quite light at ~1.6kg, the keyboard is OK
| too, but I tend to use an external one when at my desk.
|
| I love the battery life, which is great when running on
| integrated graphics.
|
| The CPU is great too, I'm satisfied with autocomplete speed in
| my IDE. I think the 5900HS is also quite power-efficient, maybe
| the Intel versions are more power-hungry, not sure. Another
| benefit is that the laptop stays completely silent, and only
| whirrs up when gaming or doing heavier workloads.
|
| The GPU in my version is "just" the 3060 Mobile, but it's good
| enough for me, and there are costlier version with better GPUs.
|
| The ports are good enough for me. There's one USB-C 3.2 Gen2
| which I used to connect to a DisplayPort screen, and there's an
| HDMI port, which I use to drive a 4k@120Hz monitor. I also use
| one of the USB 3.1 Gen 2 (10Gbps) ports with a hub to run all
| peripherals (mic, webcam, keyboard, mouse).
|
| WiFi was giving me problems on Windows (I have the MediaTek
| card), but that was fixed at the end of 2021. Another smallish
| issue is that there's no webcam, but I use a standalone cam
| anyway.
| princevegeta89 wrote:
| I am comparing this to my case with my own laptop Dell G15
| Ryzen edition. Linux seems to play quite well with it, however
| I am dealing with poor driver performance and limitations with
| switching displays and nVidia Optimus. For that reason I tried
| installing Windows 10 after almost a decade lol. This amazing
| driver support was something I always missed and it made a lot
| of things simpler for me. All my hardware is now plug and play
| without having to restart the system. Not just that, some
| kernels made my system go haywire so I had to do a lot of
| housekeeping, which is not required with Windows 10 I believe.
| Looking forward to get my hands on WSL and make the final
| decision.
| doix wrote:
| I'm also on a G14! The wait time for a ThinkPad was 6 weeks
| when I needed a new laptop, so I just ended up buying a G14
| because I couldn't wait.
|
| WiFi seems okay for me, I've not had any problems. Restarting X
| is indeed annoying. Also only one of the USB-c ports has
| display port support, that took me a while to figure. I thought
| my usb-c monitor was broken until I took a closer look at the
| ports. No webcam is pretty annoying as well.
|
| The Linux community for the laptop is actually pretty large.
| People have reverse-engineered a lot of the "nice to haves"
| [0].
|
| [0] https://asus-linux.org/
| cntrl wrote:
| was about to recommend the G14 as well.
|
| Have my 2020 G14 since almost two years now and it's absolutely
| fabulous running arch as my daily driver.
| mcv wrote:
| If you're going for a Thinkpad, the T480 from a couple of years
| ago seems to be the gold standard. The current successor of
| that model is the T14, but I have no idea if it's as good. I
| got an X1 Extreme, which is a gorgeous machine, and very
| powerful, but it eats through its power like no laptop I've
| seen before. Battery charge rarely lasts more than 2 hours.
|
| One big advantage of the high-end Thinkpads: they're spill
| resistant. I accidentally spilled an entire mug of tea over
| this one, and it had no ill effects whatsoever. You can't do
| that with most laptops.
| tmchu wrote:
| The T480 that I got is the worst laptop purchase I have done
| in years. The m2 port is not bolt in but you will need to buy
| an adapter if you want to install a second drive if your
| configuration is only 1 drive. The USB-C charging port had
| problem quickly after a year where it don't receive charge
| unless you put it in the JUST the right position and pray to
| god that it will keep charging. And the USB-C card is part of
| the mobo so you are looking at $700-800 mobo swap to fix the
| problem.
| kawsper wrote:
| The T480s is also worth considering.
| iguessthislldo wrote:
| I have a 2021 T14, upgraded from a T460p. It's a bit
| underwhelming if I'm being honest. Ubuntu seems to have more
| problems with it than with the T460p:
|
| - Crashes more than before. This has only been 2 or 3 times,
| but it's still 2 or 3 times for than it should.
|
| - Has random issues, like graphical glitches, with builtin
| and external 4K displays. Right now I keep the resolution at
| 1080 because it's annoying.
|
| - Has more issues going into and out of sleep.
|
| Those are all probably Ubuntu's issues though. Physically I
| don't have a gripe besides maybe the speakers are a bit quiet
| and it would be nice if there was a USB C port on the right
| side so I could charge from either side.
| mcv wrote:
| > Has more issues going into and out of sleep.
|
| I doubt that's unique to the T14, though. Every recent
| laptop and desktop I know seems to have trouble sleeping
| lately. Either they refuse to go to sleep, or they do, but
| randomly wake up and then stay on. I don't know what's
| causing this PC insomnia epidemic.
| bullen wrote:
| I'm still using my Thinkpad X61s.
|
| Nothing today even comes close, and never will.
| DresdenNick wrote:
| Doubtme wrote:
| Just got mine.
|
| 2022 rog strix 12th gen i9 + rtx 3060
|
| 10/10 must Buy
|
| I went with strix vs others because of power delivery.
| Apparently rtx 3080 is great and all but asus seriously fucked
| up because the laptops they put it in dont deliver it enough
| power and it gets similar performance to a 3060. So I just got
| the 3060, 300ms screen is mind blowing
| carlsborg wrote:
| Second this. I run an Arch derived distro on my ASUS AMD Zen3
| 5900 with 8 cores/16 hw threads and the cpu benchmarks are
| close to the M1 macs for about half the price.
|
| The Realtek WiFi device is a problem with hp laptops too. Works
| but needs a cold reboot after the hibernate wakes up.
|
| Are you saying the intel WiFi chip is pin compatible with the
| Realtek? That's an amazing find.
| robin_reala wrote:
| The slots are usually Mini PCIe (if not M2).
| happymellon wrote:
| > Are you saying the intel WiFi chip is pin compatible with
| the Realtek? That's an amazing find.
|
| I thought that most laptops have the WiFi on a mini-PCI card
| these days (or really anything in the past 10 years) unless
| they are really trying for the ultra-slim, solder everything
| down look.
| loeg wrote:
| 8C/16T is probably Ryzen 5800 unless mobile uses a really
| confusing numbering scheme relative to desktop.
| carlsborg wrote:
| 5900hx
|
| # of CPU Cores 8 # of Threads 16 Default TDP 45+W
|
| AMD really knocked it out the park with zen3
| loeg wrote:
| Oh, ok. Yeah, file that under "unless mobile uses a
| really confusing numbering scheme relative to desktop."
| On desktop, 5800x is 8C/16T and 5900x is 12C/24T.
| lhl wrote:
| Unless the antennas are glued (annoying but can be worked
| around with a heatgun), your BIOS device locks your wifi card
| (like Lenovo did with some of their laptops), or you
| accidentally get a CRF module that can only be used in
| compatible Intel devices, most laptops use a standard sized
| M.2 E key or miniPCIe network card that are totally
| interchangeable. Intel AX200/AX210s are dirt cheap (like
| $10-20) and done immediate replacements in my past 3 laptops.
| alkonaut wrote:
| I have the same question but I'll tweak the parameters somewhat:
| I want a movable developer workstation. I'll never (or almost
| never) be using these components of the laptop: battery, screen,
| touchpad, keyboard. I also don't care much about size weight
| since I'll be 99% sitting still. On the contrary I'd _like_ it to
| be large and heavy, if it would help with noise and thermals.
|
| Are there good "movable" laptops that run cool and quiet yet have
| high perf, and achieve this by actually making the laptop larger?
|
| I want something with good build quality (not a plasticky gaming
| rig). I want something using recent CPUs (intel 12th gen, or
| recent Ryzen). High power (35W and up) that can run for hours
| without throttling. I have tried various Dell models (precisions)
| but the thermals are abysmal because it's only half the thickness
| it needs to have in order to manage that kind of power.
| jobigoud wrote:
| Do you use a portable screen? I'm also looking for a "movable"
| workstation. I have considered a mini PC like Intel NUC coupled
| with an external GPU, but between the screen and the GPU case I
| fear it would start to be inconvenient for plane travel.
| alkonaut wrote:
| No I use normal screens 27" and up. I just move the machine
| between a home office and computer and have
| screen/keyboard/mouse etc in both locations.
| nithayakumar wrote:
| Have you considered cloud machines for software dev?
|
| Full disclosure: I'm a co-founder in a business that provides
| cloud environments for software dev.
|
| One of my cofounders used to code daily from his ipad. I switch
| between my gaming pc and my mac. The flexibility and peace of
| mind is unbeatable for me. Plus its great for intensive computing
| usage since you can scale up and down.
|
| That said, if Linux is your general purpose OS of choice (in
| addition to programming), than I completely get it :)
| slaymaker1907 wrote:
| I absolutely adore my System76 Darter Pro. System76 is actually
| great for many different price points since they are extremely
| customizable. For example, you could do something like opt for a
| cheaper processor but more storage whereas many manufacturers
| force you to have more expensive everything (Apple is the worst
| offender, but all seem to do this to an extent).
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| Forget anyone who says just use a Mac or Windows. They probably
| haven't used Linux in awhile because most of their "issues" don't
| exist anymore.
|
| My experience: Ubuntu and Fedora "just work" on almost any
| machine. If your hardware is super new use the newest version or
| beta for the first release cycle.
|
| I used to have a ThinkPad, now have an Acer Swift 3, both "just
| worked". Dells seem to be good. System76 of course. Razer sells a
| dev machine these days. And so on.
|
| Tip on maintaining battery life: charge from 20% to 90% and don't
| leave it plugged in, use appropriate brightness, realize that GPU
| heavy stuff, multiple monitors, etc... all use more battery. Stay
| away from discrete GPUs unless you know you need/want them,
| integrated is fine for most gaming these days.
| 1337shadow wrote:
| Only drawback of P14s is battery which you can't upgrade,
| otherwise great to have an AMD Ryzen with 16 cores and 48 gigs or
| RAM.
| jll29 wrote:
| Lenovo ThinkPad X1 or X1 Nano are my favorites. Small, light, but
| powerful.
|
| Before I used the ThinkPad X230 and DELL Latitude 7270, each for
| many years and bought second hand. The DELL was particularly
| sturdy.
|
| All of these are Ubuntu LTS friendly boxes.
|
| Avoid Microsoft Surface Laptops, which require patches to run
| Linux, Microsoft doesn't offer an Image ready to burn on a stick.
| And although I'm writing this on an M1 MacBook, I can't recommend
| that box yet as a primary machine; I use it mostly for making and
| presenting slides and browsing HN and such, not for serious dev
| work. In a year's time, this may look different.
| blenderdt wrote:
| I have very mixed feelings about DELL. They have great
| hardware. But after buying an Ubuntu laptop I discovered it had
| custom DELL drivers that work fine under Ubuntu 18, but have no
| support for later versions of Ubuntu.
|
| I got everything working again except for the webcam, which
| kind of sucks.
| tonto wrote:
| had a similar experience (not with the webcam specifically
| but generally with their pre-installed Ubuntu 18). the system
| they shipped out with pre-installed Ubuntu 18 was really
| troublesome and would not sleep properly and would go 100%
| CPU when doing so which was maddening. it was pretty unclear
| what I did that fixed it because I tried so many things, but,
| somehow got it fixed and now have a somewhat temperamental
| but pretty fast laptop 3 years later and am running latest
| Ubuntu 22.04 beta :)
| jrib wrote:
| What do you find lacking in the m1 to make it your dev machine?
|
| The battery on the m1 was to enticing. I went back and forth
| between a ThinkPad x1 with Linux and this MacBook air. It's
| impressive and I have no regrets. When there's an arm laptop
| released with similar performance and battery life I can run
| Linux on, I'll definitely be picking one up
| jlokier wrote:
| > What do you find lacking in the m1 to make it your dev
| machine?
|
| For me, the 16GB RAM limit on the MacBook Air is the
| principal reason not to get one, otherwise I would have
| already. As soon as you go to 32GB or more with M1, it's a
| big price jump to the Pro range, not sub $2000 any more.
|
| I have been looking at the M1 MBPs, but the price makes it
| need justification, and the 2.5 months lead time even at
| Apple stores for the higher models, has kept me from
| committing. And when I tried the MBP keyboard in store, it
| felt not as good as the old <= 2015 keyboards.
|
| Firefox in daily use is constantly swapping on my older MBP
| that has 16GB RAM, and when I used Safari, it wasn't any
| better. (It was the trigger that made me go back to Firefox,
| as it used less memory than Safari when I switched). It
| quickly rises from 10GB to using 30GB after a little
| browsing; I've seen it go up to 67GB. Some sites will do that
| with just one tab open. It took me a long time to realise
| that's why browsing was so janky and pausing a lot, and back
| when I used Safari everything else paused often too. So I'd
| not be eager to buy a new laptop with the same problem.
|
| Perhaps the Linux dev VM and several Electron-based
| communication apps that have to be running constantly add up,
| but it always seems to be the browser that grows to use much
| more memory than there is available.
|
| With Firefox it seems to be a fixable software problem,
| because when it's triggered to release memory it will drop as
| fast as it can swap in, with no apparent affect except a long
| pause. I expect it's all cache. The memory statistics
| fluctuate very rapidly sometimes, gaining several GB in
| seconds, even when just clicking around text-only sites like
| HN.
|
| But it's not realistically going to be fixed, so I think it
| best to get at least 32GB RAM for the next machine, whether
| it's a Macbook or not.
| jbverschoor wrote:
| 67GB won't help your 32GB machine either. The problem is
| that many websites are full of memory leaks. I had similar
| issues about 5-7 years ago. I then installed "the great
| suspender" to suspend tabs that weren't really used. That
| became spyware or something.. But chrome is pretty good at
| handling all the tabs.
|
| I'm on M1 since it came out and couldn't be happier
| jlokier wrote:
| It's unlikely to be website memory leaks. If it was, on
| "memory flush" it wouldn't drop to about the same amount
| every time that fits comfortably in RAM, with no visible
| effect except the pause. This event does not unload tabs.
|
| With the numbers I'm seeing, think it's too risky to
| commit to 16GB _non-upgradeable_ RAM for a laptop that
| must last many years to justify the cost. The ask HN
| author wants their sub-$2000 laptop to last for a long
| time, and I 'd worry that even if browsing is smooth in
| 2022 brand new, what about 2025 and 2028, with more dev
| and comms apps running as well?
|
| Usually it climbs to 20-30GB or so then triggers the
| flushing, with many annoying freezes on the way, but yes
| I've wondered if there's really an upper limit. Given any
| amount of RAM, will it use all of it and then try to swap
| even more? Could more RAM even be worse due to some
| accounting-ratio bug? (67GB is rare, only seen with
| Telegram which does have a severe leak.)
|
| Like you I'm auto-suspending inactive tabs, and their
| size certainly isn't a problem after restarting.
|
| Yet I see large RAM fluctuation even on text-only HN
| tabs. Just now, a new HN tab used 2.5GB more RAM in a few
| seconds before settling down to 1.2GB. Later the flush
| event happened and dropped 9GB. The new tab is still
| open. It wouldn't be a problem if it was just vm stats,
| but it does cause too many annoying freezes.
|
| So what I think I'm seeing is that bloat has accrued over
| time, and optimising memory, or perhaps doing it right on
| MacOS, is not a priority for FF devs (or Safari in my
| experience with many tabs or windows), and won't be any
| time soon. If someone has usage similar to me, they
| should at least look whether RAM usage is borderline now
| before assuming 16GB (non-upgradable) will be enough over
| the years they want to keep using the laptop.
| lupire wrote:
| Client memory usage has plateaued, now that everything is
| a web/cloud app.
| jlokier wrote:
| Storage maybe, RAM less clear. Some web apps use more RAM
| (in the browser) compared with the equivalent native app,
| and on a laptop people like to run multiple apps at the
| same time, whether web or native.
| seanw444 wrote:
| I'd argue that it continues to increase, because
| everything is a web app packaged into a Chromium
| instance.
| ta4948474637272 wrote:
| How are the keyboards on recent X1 Carbons and X1 Nanos? I have
| a 6th gen X1 Carbon (bought 2017) and I am in love with it. It
| just survived nasty a 4ft drop with only cosmetic damage.
|
| However, I've heard that the keyboards on the recent models are
| not as good. It's the only thing stopping me from getting a
| Nano...
|
| Edit: Linux support is stellar on the X1 Carbon, which is no
| surprise since RedHat issues its employees with business Lenovo
| laptops.
| sergiosgc wrote:
| 7th gen keyboard is the best in the X1 Carbon history, 8th
| gen had reliability problems, and the current generation
| (9th) is very very good, if you are ok with the reduced key
| travel. I happen to like it, but it is really a matter of
| personal preference.
| cehrlich wrote:
| The most recent X1s still have good keyboards, but slightly
| shorter key travel than the older ones. If you're a ThinkPad
| keyboard lover it might bother you and is probably worth
| playing with one IRL before buying. If you just want a pretty
| good keyboard, these still have that.
| usr1106 wrote:
| I had a X1C bought early 2018. Not sure about the generation
| from the top of my head, but it had no hpdi screen. Battery
| life was great and Linux worked fine.
|
| In early 2020 it got stolen (full disk encryption with a
| strong passphrase luckily). I got a X1C 7th and expected it
| would be as good as the previous one. The first bad surpirse
| was the HiDPI screen. Xubuntu did not work well with it, it
| required a lot of fiddling. Well and then I run some non-
| Xubuntu app here and there and it required extra fiddling. In
| the end I gave up and just reduced the screen resolution to
| some "classical" value and everything was fine again. Have
| not noticed that my code is worse because of slightly less
| smooth fonts... (Some distros might be easier in that aspect,
| Wayland is reportedly better, and to my suprise even i3 seems
| to work rather well.)
|
| Even worse the battery life is significantly worse than on
| the previous model. To my understanding higher resolution
| displays require more energy, there is nothing you can do.
| Have not checked whether the newer CPU could also have an
| impact. A full working day on battery is hardly possible
| anymore, even with little playing of videos or similar.
|
| Finally my current X1C 7th came with a 4G modem that has no
| Linux driver at all. Not a big deal for me because I have
| only 1 SIM anyway and my phone has good data rates to share.
|
| More on the anecdotal side: A firmware update was broken
| recently. I guess bugs happen everwhere. What I liked that
| Lenovo guys where active on github and a fix came quickly.
| Couldn't resist thinking: Like in the IBM days when Thinkpads
| got good support.
| cssanchez wrote:
| Think pads are nice for the many reasons in other comments.
| However, the track pad and nibble-mouse on it are unusable in
| my opinion. For a laptop, it requires an external mouse to
| function, so if high mobility is a factor, I would look
| elsewhere.
|
| My basic $600 acer laptop from 2017 has better trackpad than my
| ThinkPad from work and was expandable enough to cover my needs
| with a quick Ram and SSD upgrade and it has a really good,
| large track pad still working to this day.
| rvanlaar wrote:
| X1 owner checking in. I use it and I'm happy with it. It hit
| the sweet spot when I bought it a couple of years ago.
|
| I don't recommend it for the given price point. I included all
| extra options such as insurance and the extra disk space.
|
| I found it isn't fast enough in general usage. Had problems
| running a serverless javascript project. External monitors with
| scaling will bring the iGPU to its knees. The display itself is
| too small to effectively program on it, and the CPU is not
| powerful enough to run a multitude of unittests or compile more
| complicated programs on.
|
| I use my X1 with an eGPU and two 4K monitors. Webdevelopment
| happens in VSCode with heavy usage of the VSCode remote docker
| plugin. This enables me to run unittests and development tasks
| on a beefy PC.
|
| Taken all together this raises the price quite a bit.
| Kon-Peki wrote:
| > Avoid Microsoft Surface Laptops, which require patches to run
| Linux, Microsoft doesn't offer an Image ready to burn on a
| stick.
|
| Is this indeed the case, and likely to continue for the
| foreseeable future? If so, that is really disappointing. I came
| in to recommend the Surface Laptop 4. You get the choice of an
| AMD or Intel processor, excellent build quality, and a 200dpi
| 3:2 touchscreen. And if you choose the "business" version, you
| can spec it with up to 32GB memory.
|
| My wife is a die-hard ThinkPad user, but I can't stand the
| widescreen nature of them. I love how the notch on my MBP gives
| me that little extra bit of vertical real estate. But that
| screen on the Surface Laptop! My kids and a niece have them,
| they are amazing.
| porjo wrote:
| >> Avoid Microsoft Surface Laptops, which require patches to
| run Linux,
|
| > But that screen on the Surface Laptop!
|
| I've been considering the Surface Laptop for the 3:2, high
| PPI screen. According to this [0] so long as you have a
| recent stock kernel, the only things that don't work are pen
| and touchscreen (touch screen requires kernel patches on
| Intel arch, AMD doesn't support at all). I can live without
| both.
|
| [0] https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-
| surface/wiki/Supporte...
| lhl wrote:
| You can use this to track Linux compatibility on Surface
| Laptops: https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-
| surface/wiki/Supporte...
|
| If a 3:2 screen is something you really want, I think getting
| a Framework is a better option, but if you can settle for
| 16:10, you'll have a lot more options now/in the near future.
| theyeenzbeanz wrote:
| Don't have a suggestion but I'd personally avoid ASUS. I've had 2
| models within the recent few years and they have garbage battery
| life and run so hot with screaming fans on light loads.
| icharters wrote:
| rhamzeh wrote:
| True, but it is not a tool that works for everyone.
|
| In my case, I consider the Mac one of the cons of working at my
| current place of work. My days are filled with minor hassles
| that I could really do without. Doing simple things takes
| longer, and I have to deal with random freezes, slowdowns and
| even crashes that I did not have to deal with when using my own
| laptop for similar needs over the past couple of years (mostly
| dev related with minor content editing).
|
| So again, it is a tool, but it is not the best tool for the job
| for every person, especially developers.
| threeseed wrote:
| Maybe you have an older Mac ?
|
| Any of the M1 variants should have no performance issues even
| under pretty heavy load.
|
| And if you're having random freezes or crashes then that is a
| symptom of a hardware fault.
| icharters wrote:
| Random freezes, slowdowns and crashes? Care to elaborate?
| What languages and tooling are you using that is giving that
| sort of grief? That is completely counter my experience.
| jdavis703 wrote:
| Sounds like the poster is having power management issues.
| Could be a dirty fan or a bad chip. I've dealt with the
| latter and it was fixed under warranty.
| FillardMillmore wrote:
| I've been using a MacBook Pro 2015 for a while now for my
| personal stuff - it's been nothing but reliable for
| everything from programming to surfing the web to DJ
| mixing. Just recently, the battery cycles exceeded normal
| usage and I got a notification from the system that the
| 'Battery should be replaced soon' - almost as soon as
| this happened, I experienced random slowdowns, freezing,
| etc just doing low-intensity tasks like browsing this
| site. Open up Activity Monitor and find that the
| 'kernel_task' is absolutely throttling my CPU. Long story
| short, this particular MacBook Pro had a battery recall
| and Apple replaced mine for free - worked just like new
| after that, which I'm grateful for since it's basically
| the best laptop I've ever used.
| ta_456235602 wrote:
| I normally don't participate in these type of discussions
| on this one I will make an exception.
|
| Macs are extremely bad in terms of thermal management in
| the long run. Yes sure, they will work absolutely fine in
| the store but they will slow down with your dev environment
| installed.
|
| 1. The Apple store is cooler and has better airflow than
| your cubicle/desk/room.
|
| 2. The vanilla operating system runs fast on any computer
| and os
|
| 3. intel CPUs are getting extremely hot when doing everyday
| ops on the computer (too early to talk about M class CPUs)
| 4. Random freezes are a real thing and there isn't much you
| can do about it.
|
| 5. Logic board changes are also a thing, I've witnessed
| temperature sensors breaking because of the bad thermals.
|
| 6. fan noise is awful. yes it won't run in the store or
| when the computer is new, but you will definitely notice
| once the issues begin
|
| 7. macbooks are not made to work with monitors - they
| support them. the primary usecase for a apple laptop is to
| work without a monitor. so be surprised if your monitor is
| not supported.
|
| 8. on pre m1 cpus any external monitor was also triggering
| the radeon gpus to fire up, causing thermal throttling to
| become active very quickly. kernel_task anyone?
|
| This is a long one. recommended workarounds are:
|
| - disabling turbo boost (why buy a "pro" computer in first
| place?)
|
| - buying an egpu (external gpu) with an average price of
| $700
|
| - use custom fan programs that ignore the SMC reported
| temparatures and dictate their own fan speed (can cause
| further thermal damage)
|
| - using a specific 4k monitor (does not work)
|
| Here are some interesting videos:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX6kZ3-UBuE
|
| https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=macbook+pro+in
| t...
|
| Try taking your intel macbook to the apple store and ask
| about this problem. they will really tell you that they
| have never heard about it. now try searching google and you
| will see thousands of people with the very same issues.
| apple will absolutely stonewall the issue and claim that
| you are the only person in the world experiencing this
| problem.
|
| the list could go on for much longer but I'm too tired for
| that.
|
| Do yourself a favor, if you are not planning to travel with
| the device, buy yourself a decent desktop computer with
| sufficient cooling for half the price.
| icharters wrote:
| I owned an Intel Mac and now own an M1 Max. The Intel and
| M1 are completely different beasts. My Intel would die in
| an hour and was always hot with the fan running. The
| battery life on my M1 is ridiculous. Hours and hours. I
| don't even know if it has a fan. It's silent and runs
| cool.
| ta_456235602 wrote:
| I'm VERY happy for you, I hope it stays the same.
|
| I have returned all my macs and I am a happy Windows 11
| user now. No fan noise, no thermal problems.
| smoldesu wrote:
| For me, the issue is that Mac isn't what we deploy to. We
| spend so mamy man-hours working around Mac-specific issues
| when we exclusively deploy to x86 Linux at the end of the
| day. M1 has brought even more issues with the architecture
| change, to the point where I'd say ~50% of our DevOps time is
| spent solving Mac issues. It sucks.
| Terretta wrote:
| Does your workplace use MDM (mobile device management) or
| other security software? Do they use aftermarket AV?
|
| Is it old enough to be a hybrid HDD?
| usr1106 wrote:
| Motivation is important for your work. I would not be motivated
| by using some closed source, walled garden product from a
| company with business practices I don't like. Linux is
| absolutely good enough to get most development work done
| without issue. Even if Macs might be a slightly smoother
| experience in some areas.
|
| I used to spend a lot of time to fiddle with Linux and my
| desktop in the past. You can do that if you want. But it's not
| necessary. Nowadays in 98% of the cases I say "good enough", in
| rare exceptions I might still use my freedom to fiddle and
| patch.
| icharters wrote:
| As a professional software engineer I choose to use the best
| tools for the job. In my case that tool happens to be a a
| Mac.
| horsawlarway wrote:
| Yup - the tool that will randomly prevent you from opening
| any 3rd party app if Apple's signature checking service
| goes down.
|
| The tool that defaults to a case insensitive but
| _confusingly_ case preserving fs.
|
| The tool that has been issued in variations that literally
| can't be used while closed, or if you plug the charging
| cable into the wrong "all the same" usb-c port.
|
| The tool that licenses away virtualization, making
| development slower and harder, in an attempt to force
| companies to buy them.
|
| The tool that used have a nice little $500 dollar surcharge
| if you want to put an extra 8gb of ram in it. (Don't worry
| - it's only $800 to go from 16gb to 32gb today - _much_
| better...)
|
| That tool?
|
| That's the best tool for your use-case?
|
| Guess you must develop iOS apps, because otherwise... ooof.
| icharters wrote:
| I write Go for a fintech company. I'll take a Macbook
| running MacOS over Linux or Windows every day of the
| week. It's simple and easy to set up and maintain my
| local dev environment. I don't understand why using Linux
| or hating a Mac is like a religious calling to some
| people. In my experience I jump few far fewer hoops
| managing my dev environment in MacOS than Linux for the
| work I do.
| horsawlarway wrote:
| Hey man - you're the one pitching a macbook to the guy
| who explicitly stated he didn't want a macbook.
|
| I'm just here disputing that a mac is "the best
| development tool".
|
| My opinion is pretty simple - Apple makes decent hardware
| that they _absolutely_ ruin with their software.
|
| Honestly - the closer you can be to running the same
| platform/tooling that you're deploying to, the better off
| your life will be as a developer, and I bet you money you
| aren't deploying to a macOS box.
|
| Linux and Windows are both entirely functional - frankly,
| windows 10 with WSL is a better experience than macOS, in
| my opinion - and they cost a lot less.
|
| I have used quite a few languages professionally - Java,
| Golang, C++, C#, Ruby, Js (from the bad days predating
| jquery to the decent days of not needing jquery any
| more), Rust, Python, fuck - I've even professionally used
| Netlogo, which is not something I will ever recommend,
| and it still boggles my mind occasionally.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _the tool that will randomly prevent you from opening
| any 3rd party app if Apple 's signature checking service
| goes down_
|
| You mean the Mac needs an internet connection to "work" -
| there is no "airgapped Mac"?
|
| And that they have an execution blocker you cannot
| disable? How could you code - make your software run on
| it?
| horsawlarway wrote:
| Apple does signature checking for malware - a year or two
| ago this service went down. The result was that
| absolutely no 3rd party apps could be opened on macbooks
| by default. They would spin for a second, then close. The
| issue is that the machine _was_ online, but could not get
| a proper response from the signature checking service.
|
| There are work-arounds, and by default this check is
| disabled while the machine is offline, but it's not
| exactly confidence building.
|
| My general take on Apple is that the hardware is decent,
| the software is absolute dog-shit, and the marketing is
| TOP NOTCH.
| Kudos wrote:
| I'm a Linux user who previously used Macs for years. This
| list barely touches the actual reality of developing on a
| Mac for most people. It is not nearly as strong an
| argument as the arrogant tone suggests.
| horsawlarway wrote:
| Hey - Fellow linux user here, I get issued a macbook by
| work because I touch mobile related code. I can tell you
| - I'll take win10 over macOS _any_ fucking day.
|
| This list is literally just the most obnoxious fraction
| of items that have impacted me over the last 5 years of
| use. I can _absolutely_ keep going.
|
| You want me to discuss the rapid phase out of kernel
| extensions that allowed VMs to operate well?
|
| Or the minor annoyance that is allowing execution for
| _every_ fucking brew installed tool, since macOS blocks
| it by default.
|
| Or should I look at the random 2 hour update times, where
| the computer is completely unusable?
|
| Or the utterly insane memory usage when running even a
| small scattering of containers? 4 fairly simple
| containers will eat 10gbs of ram running a mid sized RoR
| app, elastic, and a db.
|
| Or how about the xcode install times required to use
| simple tooling, like git, because "muh system integrity
| protection!!!" - but don't worry, at least you can get
| away with "just the command line" version of the tooling,
| which only eats a few gbs, instead of the fucking 40gb
| that xcode proper wants.
| usr1106 wrote:
| Elsewhere in the comments there is a message saying that
| containers are constant headache under MacOS. Not having
| used it I can't comment. But containers are a regular part
| of my work. We have them in production and additionally I
| use them because I cannot install every required tool /
| environment to my machine at the same time. In that light
| the position of the best tool for the job doesn't sound to
| be undisputed.
| icharters wrote:
| I have several Docker containers running at any given
| time with no issues.
| smoldesu wrote:
| I can get Docker working on Mac too, but honestly its
| much easier and faster on Linux. Might even be better on
| Windows, too.
| horsawlarway wrote:
| icharters is a victim of apple's marketing.
|
| Apple makes decent laptops, and the new m1 machines are
| not a bad pick. They are absolutely not the best tool for
| the job unless that job is developing iOS apps.
| icharters wrote:
| ezfe wrote:
| >I would not be motivated by using some closed source, walled
| garden product from a company with business practices I don't
| like.
|
| Most of the Development flow (and even most of the non-dev
| flow) happens in Open Source areas:
|
| - Safari - Apps you download, like VSCode - Command line
| tools
|
| The areas that aren't open source (The Calendar app, file
| browser) can be replaced as you choose.
|
| I won't tell you to use a Mac, I just want to make it clear
| that the areas a developer works in are open. And, for anyone
| worried about things like SIP, that has a fully functional
| off switch
|
| Oh, and you can run Linux (albeit with some work-in-progress
| features) - I've done it myself.
| Flankk wrote:
| That's a bit of a ridiculous argument. Xcode is not only
| closed source, it is required for publishing to the App
| Store. You can't modify the hardware or the software. It's
| a virtual prison.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > You can't modify the hardware or the software.
|
| It's a tool to get a job done - I don't need to modify
| it.
| akho wrote:
| I don't know what kind of tool users you hang around, but
| there isn't a profession that doesn't modify or customize
| their tools (through making jigs, combining pieces from
| different toolkits, outright rebuilding, making your own
| tools, ...).
| chrisseaton wrote:
| That's the great thing about software - it's already able
| to do whatever I need.
| ezfe wrote:
| Well, Xcode only needs to be used if you're publishing to
| the App Store, which you wouldn't do with a linux machine
| anyways so that's a moot point when comparing them...
| chisquared wrote:
| Note that the argument you've called ridiculous is a
| response to someone who does not want a
|
| > closed source, walled garden product from a company
| with business practices I don't like
|
| Such a person probably won't be using Xcode, nor has any
| plans of publishing to the App Store, so Xcode being
| closed-source isn't a factor at all here.
| Flankk wrote:
| It's the main factor for a developer, actually. We're
| talking about Apple so it makes sense to discuss their
| products. It doesn't make sense to talk about Microsoft
| products.
| akho wrote:
| Safari and VSCode are not open source.
|
| Most people who value freedom in software for practical
| reasons are motivated by having a way to fix or work around
| inconveniences, having a community and an active discussion
| on features, general composability and hackability of
| software, ...
|
| macOs (with all respect to their UI achievements) gives you
| none of that.
| ezfe wrote:
| Safari isn't, you're correct - but WebKit is. And Safari
| does fall into the category of things that can be fully
| replaced.
| perakojotgenije wrote:
| OP has emphasized that they do not want to use Windows or MacOS
| and yet you recommend a Mac like some Apple fanboy. Why?
| [deleted]
| icharters wrote:
| perakojotgenije wrote:
| You don't need any approval, I just don't understand that
| after saying "I don't want to buy a mac" you come with "You
| should buy a mac". What was the point of it?
| travisgriggs wrote:
| Maybe they're a parent. :)
|
| Telling people to do things they tell you they don't want
| to do becomes almost automatic if you live with a toddler
| or teenager.
|
| All kidding aside, It seems that this general observation
| applies to half of the comments here today, many of which
| are talking about pro Mac, anti Mac, or but what about
| windows?
|
| It would have been nice if it just said up front "want
| recommendation for best non apple Linux machine."
| oauea wrote:
| How do I run Linux on a macbook? Also where can I buy one
| without paying the macos license fee?
| idontwantthis wrote:
| Seriously, I can't recommend anything but a Macbook Air to
| anyone who has $1000 to spend. Top comment is recommending a
| machine that gets 6 hours battery life. Wild.
| talentedcoin wrote:
| What a ridiculous comment. Which is the "statement", the
| MacBook or a Linux laptop??? If you want to run Linux, why pay
| the Apple tax (not to mention all the aggravation), unless you
| really want the form factor or the hardware?
| horsawlarway wrote:
| I'll give you one guess which is the "statement"
|
| hint - it's the one that spends an outrageous amount on
| marketing, SO MUCH SPEND that they stopped revealing how much
| they were spending in 2015, after the marketing budget grew
| above 1.8 billion USD.
|
| That one - I can absolutely promise you that that one is the
| "statement" computer.
| adam_arthur wrote:
| Controversial opinion: Windows is better for development now
| that WSL exists. Not a fan of using MacOS' proprietary flavor
| of it.
|
| And windows computers will have 5nm processors soon enough with
| comparable performance to m1. Yes, the process/fab matters in
| perf, not just the design
| horsawlarway wrote:
| Eh - not even that controversial in my opinion. The people
| still bitching about windows are the ones who haven't used it
| in 10+ years and have no idea how usable WSL is.
|
| linux -> windows -> mac.
|
| Mac is _by far_ the least pleasant OS to use. Some of the
| hardware is ok (although avoid the 16inch intel line like
| your life depends on it) but overall I don 't want a walled
| garden with happy paths.
|
| I want a general purpose computer, and mac ain't that.
| emptysongglass wrote:
| That is how I treat my new Framework with Windows: like a
| shitty DE to Linux. I run Arch (really Nix possessing the
| body of Arch since almost every package I use daily is a
| Nixpkg) on my personal laptop. I am enjoying seeing the other
| side of tooling. My Nix flake works without fuss inside WSL
| to instantiate my developer environment same as my Linux
| machine.
|
| VS Code Remote makes working inside WSL basically native (I
| use Emacs on my Linux machine).
|
| FancyZones courtesy of PowerToys makes for an acceptable
| tiling experience. I tried to use Komorebi but at least 0.1.8
| has too many issues to recommend at this point.
|
| Kind of excited to dive into PowerShell in a Month of Lunches
| next.
| bsnnkv wrote:
| If you could open some GitHub issues (or even just drop me
| a bullet point list here) of the issues you're facing with
| komorebi it would be appreciated!
| emptysongglass wrote:
| Hey thanks for the attention, I think the project is
| awesome and when it works I feel right at home.
|
| Two big issues I encountered today running 0.1.8
| installed with Scoop on Windows 11 Education N:
|
| 1. The empty space around apps gets bigger as you move
| them to new workspaces not primary (this is with
| Komorebi's workspaces, not Windows' Virtual Desktops
| which you have indicated have poorly documented APIs). It
| seems to be this issue [1] but that issue was closed as
| fixed
|
| 2. Sometimes apps left empty spaces when they were
| minimized. That might have been VS Code or Spotify (or
| Slack?). Spotify when visible didn't resize
| appropriately.
|
| All my user-installed apps if that is helpful:
|
| - KeyPirinha
|
| - Mochi
|
| - PowerToys
|
| - Slack
|
| - Telegram Desktop
|
| - TickTick
|
| - Ubuntu on Windows
|
| - VS Code
|
| - Thunderbird
|
| - Ditto
|
| - Everything
|
| - 1Password
|
| [1] https://github.com/LGUG2Z/komorebi/issues/15
| weberer wrote:
| How easy is it to install Linux on a new Mac?
| thfuran wrote:
| Asahi exists but is not yet fully featured.
| inDigiNeous wrote:
| No proper M1 GPU -drivers right now probably pretty much
| makes it unusable.
| horsawlarway wrote:
| Very difficult. Has been since mid 2010s.
|
| There is progress - but I would not assume support for at
| least another generation or two of machines, and you will be
| fighting uphill, or running the old hardware to get it.
| amir734jj wrote:
| System76. They have great customer service and contribute to open
| source community. Support them.
| krageon wrote:
| This shop is very US-centric and it also appears that you
| cannot figure out what shipping will cost unless you create an
| account. This is not a good first impression.
| fullstop wrote:
| Shipping for me (in 2020) was $35.32.
| scns wrote:
| Check out Tuxedo Computers, Linux first with a Tux key. You can
| configure the machine to your liking. If you want compute
| intesive skip the slim & light ones. They have machines with 45W
| TDP Ryzens on offer [0].
|
| [0] https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/Linux-Hardware/Linux-
| Note...
|
| https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/why-TUXEDO.tuxedo
|
| https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/Linux-Hardware/Linux-Note...
|
| https://github.com/tuxedocomputers
| vmoore wrote:
| I'm gonna re-post this by @Tommy_Tran on Reddit.
|
| This is _not_ me, but the comment was too good not to share it
| again on HN.
|
| This is from the self-post here, titled `Is Linux more private
| and secure than Mac OS?`
| https://old.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/u6ws24/is_linux_mo...
|
| Worth considering security when about to buy a daily-driver
| laptop!
|
| -----------------
|
| Linux is not more secure than macOS. Infact, it is not even
| remotely nearly as secure as macOS.
|
| Linux for the most part lacks access control for apps. Flatpak
| and portal reduce some of this problem, but flatpak lacks
| granular control and no one is enforcing the usage of portals. As
| an example, controlling audio recording permission with Flatpak
| is a mess, as most things will just use the PulseAudio socket
| directly and you cannot deny them audio recording permission. You
| can revoke the PulseAudio socket, but that will deny both audio
| in and out. And this is only limited to apps which you install
| via Flatpak - any apps that you install via your package managers
| are not restricted whatsoever unless you spend hours and hours
| making an SELinux policy or AppArmor/Bubblewrap profile for each
| of them.
|
| The X11 server on Linux is also a huge problem. Any X11 window
| can snoop on any other X11 window and keylog + screen record you.
| Nested X11 is not great for performance at all and its hard to
| enforce it system wide. Wayland solves this problem, but not all
| apps work with it yet, and XWayland windows can still snoop on
| each other.
|
| None of the issues I described above exist on macOS. Unless you
| give an app elevated privileges, they all have to play by the
| rules with the permission system.
|
| Linux also lacks the concept of verified boot or system integrity
| verification. In fact, most distros don't even do UEFI Secure
| Boot right - the verification ends at the kernel and the initrd
| is left unverified, unencrypted and vulnerable to evil maid
| attacks. There is no protection against persistent malware
| whatsoever too, even if you manage to protect the initrd, because
| there is no verification that extends to /usr, /bin, /sbin, and
| various other directories. macOS on the other hand has proper
| verified boot from the firmware to the system volume, protecting
| it from both evil maid attacks and persistent malware. Beyond
| verified boot, it also has system integrity protection, limiting
| what the root user can do.
|
| There are also various miscellaneous things that macOS has such
| as system-wide umask setting (as opposed to just the shell), app
| signature verification, and so on.
|
| Telemetry on macOS, for the mot part, is optional. Unless someone
| can prove otherwise (by capturing it on the network or
| something), any claim about invasive telemetry will not hold.
| Also, remember that being open source doesn't imply being
| trustworthy. You are still placing complete trust in whoever
| distributing the compiled version of your software (which will be
| your OS vendor most of the time if you use a traditional Linux
| desktop distribution) to not add nasty code in there and screw
| you over.
|
| Some of Apple's apps do have mandatory telemetry or lack E2EE
| sync, but that is about it - you can simply not use them. One
| annoying aspect about macOS is that they really want you to make
| an apple account to do a major macOS version upgrade via the App
| Store (though you can still obtain the installer via their CDN if
| you know where to look) and that they collect hardware IDs.
|
| In short, macOS has superior security when compared to Linux, and
| privacy wise it is still a great option as it has great
| protection against the third party software that you install. It
| is not great for threat models where you require anonymity, but
| most people don't have such threat models to begin with.
|
| Some people will say Linux is targeted less and is therefore
| safer, but that is simply not true. Irrelevance != security.
| ReactOS is even less targeted than Linux, macOS or Windows
| because no one uses it, does that make it a secure operating
| system? And remember, malware for Linux does exist, and it's not
| hard to make one either. The security model is so bad that it's
| basically "if you execute bad code, you are screwed". There is
| not even a need for an OS exploit to compromise your system if
| the app you are running is malicious. The OS itself doesn't
| protect you from anything.
|
| And before anyone jumping in accusing me of being an Apple shill
| - I am a Linux system administrator, and most of the systems I
| use daily (both on my servers and personal laptop) are Red Hat
| systems, not Apple ones. As much as I want to say that Linux
| desktop is better than macOS - that is simply not the reality,
| I'd be lying to you if I say so.
| factorialboy wrote:
| Does it have to be a laptop?
|
| I ditched my 2019 MBP for development. I used a desktop with
| Linux and couldn't be happier.
|
| For email, zoom, etc. I used the MBP. Linux dev experience is
| still far superior than Mac OS for me, and I tend to prefer big
| screens, mechanical keyboards and a work-desk env for long
| programming or video editing sessions.
| princevegeta89 wrote:
| This used to be my setup until I realized I was running into a
| constant, frequent extra effort of keeping my PC and my laptop
| in sync for various things like my environments and files.
| Ditched it for a single power laptop instead.
| inetknght wrote:
| I recommend System76 laptops. The Serval WS has full desktop
| class hardware in a laptop chassis (so battery life is a distant
| second -- my Serval WS lasts for about 40-90 minutes on battery
| depending on workload). Their other product offerings are pretty
| good too.
|
| And, best of all, they provide first-class Linux support and
| provide their own Ubuntu-derived distribution, Pop!_OS.
| acidburnNSA wrote:
| I love my system76 lemur pro. It has amazing battery life. It's
| quite small and isn't going to be the most powerful thing in
| the world. I remote into my ryzen 5950x desktop when I need
| real power
| sorry_outta_gas wrote:
| I've had good luck with the asus g14, I don't run linux on it
| anymore since I'm stuck in UE but there's a good ROG discord with
| a big linux community focused on the machine.. running fedora
| worked mostly fine out of the box w/ gpu switching
| flowerbreeze wrote:
| I use a slimbook with Manjaro/i3, and it's fast. Far more
| performant than Macbook Pro 2017 13-inch 16GB with iOS I have to
| use at work (a bit older hardware to be fair) and 1/2 in price.
| No freezing, can run PyCharm, VSCode and be on a video call with
| screensharing + run a pacman install at the same time and I've
| not been able to get it to slow down even a bit. Meanwhile Mac
| crawls to a halt with Google Meet or Slack calls screen-sharing.
|
| This is my setup, so a bit different from yours though:
| ESS-15-AMD ESSENTIAL 15" AMD Memoria RAM 16GB
| Teclado Espanol Sistema Operativo Sin Sistema
| Pendrive No Wifi Intel AX200 M2 250GB SSD NVMe
| Modulo SIM NO Procesador Ryzen 5 4500U 659,00
| EUR
|
| The only issue I have is the touchpad location and style (no
| explicit buttons). It's not centered at laptop middle, but
| instead at text part of keyboard middle, but I mostly only use
| keyboard. Works ok as long as I reconfigure it to count middle
| button presses as left-click, otherwise I tend to misclick.
|
| Battery life is still about 6-8 hours when using text
| editor/developing or about 4-5, if watching movies. It's quite
| heavy laptop, but still fine for couch-slouching. A bit too heavy
| for travel.
|
| It's a year old and so far it does have some discoloration on
| plastic, but nothing has broken and it feels fairly solid. The
| KDE Slimbook you've chosen seems to have aluminium body, so it
| would probably far outlast my basic plastic version.
| inter_netuser wrote:
| How good is the keyboard?
| flowerbreeze wrote:
| For me, it's good, because I like quite soft and low keys.
| They still do a mild click and it feels obvious if a key is
| pressed, but it's not pronounced like on higher-
| key/mechanical keyboards. What I personally like is that the
| keyboard is wide enough to have a dedicated num-pad and that
| the layout is closer to a full-size keyboard than on most
| other laptops I've had, Ctrl is in left-most position as with
| normal keyboards with Fn key to the right of it. The
| Delete/Ins etc are moved to the top row next to F-keys, but
| I've not found it difficult to adjust to.
|
| No complaints so far about any keys stopping from working or
| feeling odd switching between it and my full-size more clicky
| keyboard.
| kellogs_aran wrote:
| Thanks! Will add this to my list :)
| RosanaAnaDana wrote:
| What specific kinds of development are you doing? Enterprise CRUD
| software? SaaS? Data science? ML?
|
| Just in review, I got a system 76 with pop os as the daily
| driver. I do a lot of ML and also game on it in my free time, so
| having a desktop 2080ti in a laptop chassis was nice.
|
| However, a major complaint I have is battery life. It's not just
| the ridiculous GPU, it's also that linux is apparently shit when
| it comes to power management. If you want to mobile compute and
| apparently you do, you might consider a thorough investigation
| into battery life as a part of your requirements.
|
| Mine is great as a mobile workstation machine, but the battery
| life prevents me from enjoying cafe style programming.
| kellogs_aran wrote:
| Hi. A combo of Enterprise CRUD software and SaaS.
|
| I use Docker/asdf to run 3 different projects so the memory and
| hard disk space I use add up to quite a bit.
| sandreas wrote:
| I would go for framework.
|
| Maybe if the Lenovo X13s (ARM) is out and reviews are good, that
| might be an alternative.
|
| When 13 is a bit small, you could go for Lenovo T14s...
|
| But honestly, if you just wanna use this machine for development,
| a used Lenovo T480s with 24GB RAM and HiDPI display would be more
| than enough and costs about 500 bucks.
| pcdoodle wrote:
| I'd go for the framework. They're going so over the top that it's
| wrong to not support that company.
| cs702 wrote:
| As a longtime user of System76 servers, desktops, and laptops, I
| can recommend them.
|
| * The hardware has always been "more than good enough." I mean,
| you can always nitpick about some or other detail, but the
| machines work, they work well out-of-the-box with Linux, and they
| last a long time. We still have eight-year-old machines that are
| humming along.
|
| * Support has always been _outstanding_ at everything from
| answering questions to sending replacement parts with detailed
| how-to instructions. On one occasion we sent them an older
| machine for fixing and shipping back, and they handled it
| flawlessly.
|
| * Most importantly, I've always felt that everyone we've
| interacted with at System76 _actually cares_ about me as a
| customer. They 're not a charitable organization, so they need to
| make money, but I've always gotten the sense that doing right by
| customers is a higher priority.
| jasoneckert wrote:
| I second System76 for these exact reasons as well. I like their
| hardware and Pop!_OS customizations, but I love their company
| and support.
| packetlost wrote:
| I've been _very_ happy with my Dell XPS 13 (a bit small, but my
| work laptop is also an XPS 15 which is a _good_ size for daily
| use IMO). I recommend the developer editions for better network
| driver support (they use an intel one iirc).
| zamalek wrote:
| Just some general advice:
|
| > https://kfocus.org/order/order-m2.html
|
| NVIDIA gets really old, really fast. My personal laptop has an
| NVIDIA GPU and AMD iGPU, my desktop is AMD.
|
| For my laptop, a zen2 build of the kernel nets me about 15% more
| battery life and a snappier system. Unfortunately NVIDIA makes
| installing that kernel tedious, so I just run the regular kernel.
| I also have to install the proprietary drivers because noveau
| keeps crashing (across multiple distros).
|
| n=1 and everything, but I'd strongly recommend avoiding NVIDIA
| and going with either an Intel iGPU or AMD iGPU/dGPU.
|
| Unless you want to do some ML, in which case NVIDIA is a must.
| akvadrako wrote:
| Unfortunately, the options with AMD dGPUs are very limited, I'd
| guess about 5% of what's out there with Nvidia.
|
| The new ASUS ROG Zephyrus G14 looks like a good option; my only
| concern is poor black levels.
| allisdust wrote:
| +1 for zephyrus (though I'm using last year's model). Thanks
| to the hard working asus-linux community, most of the
| hardware features are controllable seamlessly through GUI
| software (fan profiles, switching between gpus, keyboard
| lights etc). Goes well with Fedora because they have the
| latest kernels with stable releases.
| brobinson wrote:
| Could you link to this community and the GUI software you
| mentioned? I just got a Zephyrus M16, and I'm having quite
| a few issues getting stuff working on it.
| kellogs_aran wrote:
| Will check this out too. Thanks!
| belthesar wrote:
| I'm going to hard second this. The ease and stability I gained
| from switching off the Nvidia closed source drivers to the open
| source AMD drivers has been nothing short of stellar.
| bduerst wrote:
| Third. NVidia drivers were the bane of my existence for a
| while, and became such a time suck when I wanted to be doing
| other things.
| neverminder wrote:
| Nvidia is also better for HiDPI because they use faster RAM. I
| have dual 4K 144Hz screens, so unfortunately for the time being
| I have to stick with Nvidia.
| kellogs_aran wrote:
| Hi. OP here. Thanks. Will look into this since this laptop was
| looking like a strong contender for me.
| simjnd wrote:
| Huawei's MateBooks are really good: great hardware, good specs,
| and good Linux support (doesn't ship with it but you can install
| it)
| elzbardico wrote:
| Never had too much problems running linux on Dell or Lenovo
| laptops. The fact that no matter where I am in the world I can
| find parts or support was a strong point to me to go the
| traditional route.
|
| Now I make do with a Mac M1 and a companion samsung book pro, a
| machine that I choose because I wanted a very light (in physical
| weight) intel evo as a companion mobile machine running linux for
| when I feel that using linux is better than using Mac OS.
|
| I run fedora on it, and other than the fingerprint sensor that
| doesn't work (at least out of the box, never cared enough to
| figure out if I could find a workaround).
|
| I find it great that there are all those niche sellers out there,
| but I don't think going this route is cost-effective for most
| people.
| tomrod wrote:
| My recent experiences with Dells have been that they last up to
| two weeks after the warranty expires.
|
| I couldn't physically pick up an XPS 15 without it freezing due
| to case flex. It's a laptop -- this was killer.
| [deleted]
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