[HN Gopher] YDB - An open-source Distributed SQL Database
___________________________________________________________________
YDB - An open-source Distributed SQL Database
Author : diimdeep
Score : 338 points
Date : 2022-04-19 09:57 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (ydb.tech)
(TXT) w3m dump (ydb.tech)
| porkradish wrote:
| I noticed under the limits section of the documentation that a
| query result can have no more then 1000 rows. Anything more is
| truncated. I am surprised to see such a low limit. Maybe I
| misread something?
| MichaelMoser123 wrote:
| here is a table that compares YDB to postgress
|
| https://db-engines.com/en/system/PostgreSQL%3BYandex+Databas...
|
| I think they wanted to have a DB that is better tuned to
| distributed systems. Still don't know, why they do an SQL like
| query language called YQL (what would that mean in practical
| terms? Could a common ORM framework like JPA deal with the YQL
| query language ?)
| orthoxerox wrote:
| As far as I understand, YDB is different enough from regular
| RDBMS's that they don't provide an ODBC/JDBC/ADO.Net driver.
| SomeCallMeTim wrote:
| If that comparison table is right about "no foreign keys,"
| that's a showstopper for me. :(
|
| Back to looking at Couchbase, Yugabase, or Citus for my
| distributed SQL.
| keredson wrote:
| that's very common in distributed databases. even traditional
| databases, it's very common to not have FKs on large tables,
| and just handle it in software. indexing billions or more of
| rows is non-trivial.
| samber wrote:
| I found a lot of mentions of "Postgresql" in repository:
| https://github.com/ydb-platform/ydb/search?q=postgresql
|
| Is it build on top of PG ?
| jenny91 wrote:
| I'd almost guess so. Yandex is one of the largest production
| users of pg.
| gaploid wrote:
| it seems not. they have compatibility for querying external PG
| dbs (YQL query engine), I thing that's the reason for that.
| fomichev3000 wrote:
| YDB is developed from ground up. We think about postgres
| compatibility layer, that's why you see 'postgres' in source
| code.
| JeopardyJJJ wrote:
| nik736 wrote:
| A bit off topic but what are all those devs at Yandex doing right
| now?
| HALtheWise wrote:
| Writing open source databases, apparently.
| the_mitsuhiko wrote:
| From what I have gathered the atmosphere in Yandex is loaded
| and complex. Yandex is a huge beneficiary from the war but a
| lot of people in the company are conflicted about it.
| yafinder wrote:
| > Yandex is a huge beneficiary from the war
|
| This is not true. On the contrary, Yandex's business has
| suffered greatly. You can see it for yourself here
| https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/stocks/yndx
|
| The company's employees are almost universally opposed to the
| war, but opinions about exactly how it should be stopped are,
| indeed, conflicted.
| ptnxlo wrote:
| Benefiting from something doesn't mean you won't suffer
| losses anyway. At this point which Russian company isn't
| performing negatively different since the day of the
| invasion?
| the_mitsuhiko wrote:
| Let me clarify this: Yandex would clearly do better without
| the war but unlike many other companies it will come out
| ahead as it can pick up a lot of business through "import
| substitution".
| mardifoufs wrote:
| How does it benefit from the war? I had the impression that
| they were caught in a pretty bad situation due to their
| outstanding debts and their suspension from nasdaq so that's
| very surprising!
| machinekob wrote:
| Probably cause all of the other cloud providers are
| limiting operations in Russia
| gaploid wrote:
| I believe cloud revenue in Yandex structure is quite low
| and main business in search/ads
| euos wrote:
| It is not about revenue. They are basically state
| corporation.
| vasilia wrote:
| Search/ads and ride/delivery services. As you may know
| Yandex has very advanced SDC system which was used(SDC
| robots) by Grubhub in Arizona University. They have
| delivery services in London/Paris and taxi services in
| Insrael and couple European countries.
|
| As for the Russia I found news(in Russian) that McDonalds
| was huge part of orders in delivery service. Ads system
| fully broken because of Google suspension. Without
| concurents average prices will rise exponentially. Small
| business will not be able to buy ads and will closed in
| near feature.
| euos wrote:
| They are basically "google of Russia" - main search engine,
| browser, etc. Waiting till Russia cuts off YouTube and the
| rest.
|
| They basically adopt western open-source for Russian
| government (review and such). Their browser is Chromium,
| machine learning is Tensor Flow, etc. They also work in
| cybersecurity for Russian government (including conducting
| attacks).
| petercooper wrote:
| I don't know if it's much of a benefit, but as an outsider,
| I assume Yandex will essentially pick up the entirety of
| the Russian market for search, maps, and other tools if US
| services are blocked or frowned upon?
| coolspot wrote:
| Search and maps was already theirs. However they got
| chance to expand in Yandex Phone space (replacing
| iPhones/Androids) and perhaps in desktop OS space
| (replacing Chromebooks and maybe Windows).
| VWWHFSfQ wrote:
| What. They are absolutely not a "huge beneficiary from the
| war".
|
| The value of the company has plummeted and the only reason it
| isn't nearly worthless is because the stock can't be traded
| anymore.
| repsilat wrote:
| Yandex is traded on the MOEX. It's priced around 1800
| roubles/share, down from a pre-war high of around 6k and
| pre-COVID levels of around 3k.
|
| Beaten down, but not "nearly worthless", and it _is_
| traded. (Not on the NASDAQ though.)
| VWWHFSfQ wrote:
| Oh I guess I didn't realize that Russia re-opened their
| stock exchange. Does anybody actually trade on it?
|
| Also
|
| > 1800 roubles/share
|
| This is nearly worthless
| krab wrote:
| The ban on selling shares by foreigners is probably still
| in place. So the price might be somewhat overestimated.
| ushakov wrote:
| some continue working, many relocated to EU (Yandex is based in
| Netherlands)
|
| others have taken offers from foreign companies
|
| Yandex had like 3 different managers since the beginning of the
| war, because as it turns out a manager position at Yandex
| guarantees you a spot on a sanctions list
|
| https://yandex.com/company/press_center/press_releases/2022/...
| narrator wrote:
| What's funny is the Russian ultranationalists think tank
| people have been talking for some time about how they need a
| sovereign internet like China and how all the pro-west
| liberals were exerting too much influence on tech policy in
| the country to do that project. However, because of the war,
| the pro-west liberals all immigrated so now all the tech
| people left are patriots and they can really get started on
| that project.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| It's not just internet management that's affected.
| Currencies, semiconductors, energy -- everything is
| affected in a similar way. Sanctions are a two-way street,
| they can have unintended long-term consequences (or maybe
| just consequences that nobody cares to think about) that
| are not necessarily negative to the target country and not
| necessarily positive to the imposing country.
| adolph wrote:
| Maybe this will drive more interest in DAO development.
| cabirum wrote:
| Working and building awesome things.
| adorable_monkey wrote:
| addisonj wrote:
| Interesting, the separate compute and storage tiers is another
| system going that direction which I think is becoming almost the
| standard at this point, especially for "cloud-native" things
| designed to run on k8s. From what I can tell (it isn't very
| explicit on this point) they are avoiding a distributed consensus
| at the storage layer and instead relying on a single
| writer/multiple reader model with the single writer being
| enforced by assignment of the tablets in the compute tier, with
| the tablet being responsible for writing to multiple storage
| nodes for durability? (But I might be wrong)
|
| Assuming yes this approach, I think, is under utilized and is
| pretty similar to how Apache Pulsar works (my day job),but I am
| not sure how many distributed RDBMS have tried it out, will be
| cool to see how it evolves! It isn't clear how they ensure the
| assignment of a tablet to only a single compute node, but I think
| that is an easier problem relative to distributed consensus at
| the storage tier.
| jeffbee wrote:
| Assigning leaders is trivial with something like zookeeper. But
| in this case it appears that the leader metadata is stored in a
| table of the database itself, which raises questions of
| operability if those tablets are unavailable.
| fomichev3000 wrote:
| YDB doesn't use Zookeeper. The system is built of tablets,
| every tablet implements distributed consensus algorithm.
| There are different types of tablets in the system, say
| SchemeShard is tablet that stores metadata, table schema for
| instance. DataShard stores table partition data.
| fomichev3000 wrote:
| Each tablet gather a quorum of answers from members of so
| called BlobStorage group. BlobStorage group is a number of so
| called VDisks (virtual disk), all VDisks run on different nodes
| (even on different fail domain like racks, AZs). VDisk stores
| its data on physical device, i.e. PDisk.
| flakiness wrote:
| Although the doc talks about their own SQL dialect "YQL", it
| seems to be supporting PG SQL as a compatible layer.
|
| https://github.com/ydb-platform/ydb/tree/main/ydb/library/yq...
|
| It's fascinating to see the PG's prevalence as the de-fact SQL
| standard.
| isoprophlex wrote:
| imo having had to deal with oracle sql, teradata sql, mssql and
| mysql, postgres as a dialect is such a sane and consistent
| experience.
|
| Also the ecosystem... The official docs basically solve your
| problems without much fuss, you don't have to rely on horrible
| vendor-specific forums.
| awild wrote:
| > The official docs basically solve your problems without
| much fuss, you don't have to rely on horrible vendor-specific
| forums.
|
| tdodbc also comes with examples that are so far beyond the
| scope of a normal persons usecase, they honestly just feel
| like some greybeard doing the equivalent of a 10 minute long
| Tony Hawk combo. It's just such a pain in the butt to use, we
| had to fight teradata all the way till very recently.
| fomichev3000 wrote:
| While you have a good point, I need to say that traditional
| databases and distributed databases differ in some points.
| For instance in YDB you can connect to any node of a
| database, it means that you need some kind of balancing
| (server side or client side). I'm not talking about SQL
| dialect right now, but rather how you connect to database and
| how you handle connection losses or node overloads. YDB SDKs
| have client side balancing feature to distribute load evenly
| across database nodes.
| fomichev3000 wrote:
| Postgres support is in progress actually.
| julienmarie wrote:
| It seems they are doing the same thing they did with ClickHouse
| in the OLAP space but this time in the OLTP space.
| fomichev3000 wrote:
| Yes, you can think this way. But I need to add, that YDB is
| also a platform for developing distributed systems that store
| data. YDB provides a scalable and replicated storage with low
| latency, a conception of a tablet (that is also used in many
| systems) that implements distributed consensus. These building
| blocks are used for persistent queue implementation, block
| store, KV-tablets. These blocks are hard to develop and they
| are very good when you need to build something new or optimal
| for a specific problem. OLTP is an example of such a problem.
| But yes, we were building YDB to support OLTP workload
| initially.
| wnolens wrote:
| Very cool.
| gtirloni wrote:
| I couldn't find anything about the wire protocol being compatible
| with MySQL or PostgreSQL and it seems to need a specific SDK.
| This will limit adoption considerably.
| fomichev3000 wrote:
| That's right, wire protocol is grpc. SQL dialect is called YQL.
| YDB doesn't have MySQL or Postgres compatibility, but we think
| about it.
| euos wrote:
| outcoldman wrote:
| Yeah, seems like their SDK are required
| https://ydb.tech/en/docs/reference/ydb-sdk/
| acatton wrote:
| The wire protocol is grpc https://github.com/ydb-platform/ydb-
| go-sdk/blob/98938c92a9ff...
| squarefoot wrote:
| To those condemning Yandex for the war in Ukraine, please keep in
| mind that they're a Russian company forced to comply with their
| country laws, as every other company out there. Until we know for
| sure that their management is really aligned with their
| government agenda, whatever they say, or don't say, now has zero
| credibility because it could be extorted from above. During the
| 2nd gulf war against Iraq, when the death toll began to rise, the
| US government forbade the reporting of military personnel coffins
| returning from the war zone, and news sources complied, including
| those against the war; this happens everywhere every time. What
| doesn't happen everywhere and every time is a rogue nation
| attacking their neighbors and killing civilians using laughable
| pretexts while the real goal is to take control of a very
| resourceful and industrialized area (Donbas) to be used to help
| the already poor Russian economy. The enemy is the Russian
| government and the rich oligarchy behind it, not Russian people
| that could be either lied and manipulated by ruthless politicians
| (been there, done that; does Covid19 ring a bell?) or merely
| intimidated.
| mardifoufs wrote:
| I mean honestly no one really bought it up before your comment.
| No one was condemning anything, there was a single question
| revolving around the current status of yandex but nothing
| condemning it (A part from dead comments I guess). Most of the
| discussion was technical before this entire comment thread
| causality0 wrote:
| _During the 2nd gulf war against Iraq, when the death toll
| began to rise, the US government forbade the reporting of
| military personnel coffins returning from the war zone, and
| news sources complied, including those against the war_
|
| This is wildly misleading. It was during the first gulf war,
| and it wasn't a ban on the reporting of returning coffins, it
| was a ban on photographers entering the grounds of Dover Air
| Force Base where the coffins were received.
| squarefoot wrote:
| By reporting I actually meant showing images, sorry my bad.
| However I'm pretty sure it was during the 2nd gulf war, not
| the 1st.
| causality0 wrote:
| _By reporting I actually meant showing images_
|
| Inaccurate. If they obtained images by some other way, such
| as leaked from an airman who was there or taken with a long
| range lens there was nothing barring them from publishing
| them.
|
| _However I 'm pretty sure it was during the 2nd gulf war,
| not the 1st._
|
| Bro you're in front of a computer. If you doubted me it
| would take you ten seconds to verify that the photographer
| ban was imposed in 1991.
| seniorivn wrote:
| Every organization that's willingly complied with a government
| committing crimes against humanity(including US government)
| shares responsibility for those crimes, and longer you do that
| more responsible you are.
|
| Yandex has created a news aggregation service that worked
| flawlessly and has been most internet users news site go to in
| 2011, but after massive protests yandex was "forced" to turn
| that service into a blatant propaganda machine. And yet Yandex
| decided to fully support Russian government and keep being
| russian, focus their attention on different kinds of russian
| market, and almost didn't try to expand on foreign markets(that
| would free them from government grip)
| mc32 wrote:
| We're all subject to propaganda from vested interests
| --sometimes that propaganda aligns with our values, other
| times not. But all these services provide propaganda --not in
| the advertising sense, but in the psychological manipulative
| sense.
| lotusmars wrote:
| Honestly don't care about "it's all propaganda" rhethoric.
| Yandex abused its dominant market position and silenced our
| protests and filtered sources alternative to Kremlin.
| Yandex News is the largest Russian media by a mile. They've
| done all the could (including firing editors who were out
| of line) to make it align with Kremlin.
| mc32 wrote:
| This same applies to all major tech companies. If you
| stray form the narrative, they abuse their dominant
| position to silence opposition.
|
| Now, of course, being a democracy and not being run aby a
| single party, we don't send people off to "work camps",
| but people losing their jobs for off-handed comments is
| not unusual. Oh, you made a joke that was acceptable 10
| years ago and now it's not seen as okay? Go repent,
| sinner!
|
| Also, because there is an active war, in your case, the
| repercussions are amplified, but we'd likely see similar
| things if we were in an active war instead and only
| received opinions would be allowed. Even as it is, if
| someone inexplicably swallows Russian propaganda and
| critiques the other side, these people get sent to their
| online purgatory.
| lotusmars wrote:
| Man, you're comparing American "cancel culture" to actual
| torture and murder of opposition and journalists,
| kidnapping, beatings by unmarked men, spray paintings "Z"
| and "traitor" on the walls, prosecution of relatives?
|
| You are just rich Westerners who love to downplay our
| struggle just to make yourselves victims.
| mc32 wrote:
| How did it all start?
|
| I'm not equivocating them --what is happening there is
| monstrous, as is what's happening to a lesser degree in
| China and other places, and we are no way there. But the
| setting of narrative is the same. They are using
| narrative to achieve different goals. However, the tool
| is propaganda exerted by undemocratic institutions.
|
| I think we agree it's a dangerous tool that can be
| leveraged to do bad things. They are being used for bad
| things in Russia, we're not leveraging this tool for this
| purpose --but that does not prevent it from being used in
| the future for a bad purpose.
| lotusmars wrote:
| One of the catalysts were probably 1999 bombings of
| apartment buildings[1] that were very suspicious
| (including one where FSB were actually caught planting
| hexogen by a local militia) and led to dramatic rise of
| Putin.
|
| Along with crackdown on media it created a narrative
| where you have a strata that must have their rights
| removed and be hated by society. First it were
| "terrorists" and then to a different degree "opposition",
| "journalists", "LGBT", foreigners and Ukrainians.
|
| [1]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings
| foolfoolz wrote:
| by this standard pretty much all americans are war criminals.
| get off your high horse
| lotusmars wrote:
| Germany paid reparations for many years, so no, it's an
| actual pathway that can be implemented by a framework
| similar to Nuremberg.
| ushakov wrote:
| yeah, unlike others, they can't just leave Russia for good
|
| essentially they're being held hostage, either they comply or
| the government will "nationalize" them and appoint managers who
| will
| postingposts wrote:
| If you have an open mind and a big heart you will start to
| find that most people have become ideologues, and will find
| these conditions acceptable. "Well they supported the thing I
| didn't on Facebook, death time."
|
| I'm shocked at the level of callousness some are displaying.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| The Russian people and the Russian government are largely in
| agreement and the oligarchs are out of power. If you can bet on
| one thing it is that oligarchs like international business and
| do not like wars and having their yachts seized. That was the
| Russia of the 90s.
|
| I've got family and friends in Russia, most of them highly
| educated and with access to international news and all. War
| support is pretty strong through all social strata. (also
| backed by independent pollsters like levada, if you want to
| look at data).
| gdy wrote:
| >War support is pretty strong through all social strata.
| (also backed by independent pollsters like levada)
|
| Well, when Levada's polls showed overwhelming support for the
| annexation among Crimeans (and even growing support from
| Crimean Tatars) everybody was telling that Russian polls are
| rigged by Russian government and Crimeans were afraid to
| voice their true opinions. Now you are ready to believe all
| Russian polls if they help you demonize ordinary Russians.
|
| A poll using so called 'differential privacy' approach gives
| about 55% support for the war [0] and that's something
| considering that all tv channels and lots of government-
| sponsored internet news sites are spewing government
| propaganda and all independent media are terminated and
| blocked on the internet. That's about as much as the share of
| Americans supporting the second Iraq war while having access
| to the free media. [1]
|
| Personally, I immediately decline to participate in polls
| despite being approached twice in the last week. Before the
| war I was happy to tell them that I don't trust Putin, the
| government, the parliament and everyone else.
|
| Among young or middle-aged educated Russians the support for
| the war is much lower. Among all my acquaintances only two
| supported the war when it started.
|
| [0] https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2022/04/06/do-
| russians-te...
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion_in_the_Unite
| d_S...
| pfortuny wrote:
| "The respondents on the platform are not a perfect mirror
| image of Russian society, of course. They tend to be
| younger, more urban, and better educated (Table 1)."
|
| So mostly people who did not live the USSR...
| [deleted]
| Barrin92 wrote:
| >Now you are ready to believe all Russian polls if they
| help you demonize ordinary Russians.
|
| I think you read intent into my post that isn't there. I
| don't demonize Russians now, didn't demonize them in 2014
| and I very much did believe polls in 2014 because if you
| had any idea about Russia or Crimea you knew that the
| annexation would be celebrated and rally support and an
| intense amount of national pride.
|
| 55% and comparisons to Iraq seem about right, but that war
| had authentic support for many years, had entire schools of
| foreign policy backing it, and hawks exist along the entire
| spectrum, from coastal intellectuals to flyover country.
|
| you actually did have the same discussions back then. "It's
| the deep state and MI-complex running everything, all
| Americans hate war!". Like, no lol. liberal twenty-
| something college students did, many others were on board.
| gdy wrote:
| Okay, thank you.
| codedokode wrote:
| > also backed by independent pollsters like levada
|
| Do they publish how many of respondents refused to talk? I
| saw information that majority of people refuse to answer
| questions about war. So it might be that the results are
| based mostly on opinions of people who agree to talk.
| lotusmars wrote:
| Whenever me or people I know were contacted by a person
| claiming to be a pollster, including Levada, we just hang
| up.
|
| Nobody risks a chance of being "tested" by FSB or "anti-
| extremist" operative. The risk is huge from being put on
| control to personal harrassment by unmarked men spray
| painting "Z" and "traitor" on your door.
|
| The only people who actually take a chance are those who
| say "we support special operation" anyway.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| Levada does, yes. They compare response/refusal/coop rates
| now and before the war and find it to be largely unchanged.
|
| https://www.thechicagocouncil.org/sites/default/files/2022-
| 0...
| qwerty456127 wrote:
| > Do they publish how many of respondents refused to talk?
| I saw information that majority of people refuse to answer
| questions about war.
|
| I believe an ordinary person against the war yet unwilling
| to get jailed for this opinion won't just refuse to talk,
| they would say they totally support their government
| although they actually totally hate it and wish it to
| collapse ASAP and the top officials to die in torment.
|
| Imagine you traveled to China or DPRK and some weird local
| emerged to ask how do you like the policies of their "great
| leader"? Would you take the risk of being sincere? I bet
| most people would say "fantastic!" and hurry away.
| LightG wrote:
| Can you do me/us a favour and explain why they support the
| war?
|
| Genuinely interested. For the record, I'm vehemently against,
| so I'd like to understand how on earth another conclusion can
| be arrived at.
|
| Thanks,
| vbezhenar wrote:
| 1. Because they think that Ukrainian government are US
| puppets and their main task is to destabilize Russia and
| hopefully destroy it some day.
|
| 2. Because they think that Ukrainian government relies on
| nazis and supports nazis. I understand that west does not
| really care about nazis, but for Russians it's a
| particularly hard topic, because almost every family in
| Russia lost one or more men in WW2.
|
| 3. They think that Ukrainian population is brain washed to
| foster hate against Russia and Russians. It's dangerous to
| have such a country on your border.
|
| 4. They don't really think that most Ukrainians are
| separate nation. They consider them generally Russians
| which were separated by historical accidents. And they want
| to unite with them.
| coward-guy wrote:
| Their beliefs based on the facts which are hard to dispute:
|
| 1) Right Sector - Ukrainian nationalist neo-nazi political
| party in Ukrainian parliamentary
|
| 2) Azov Detachment - neo-Nazi unit of the National Guard of
| Ukraine, who participated in wars in Donbass
|
| 3) Lots of streets are named after Stepan Bandera, for
| example Stepan Bandera Avenue in Kyiv, who was a leader of
| Ukrainian ultranationalists and cooperated with Nazi
| Germany in 1941 against USSR
| JAlexoid wrote:
| 1) That's a very easy one to dispute - Right Sector has 0
| seats in parliament now. Nationalists were losing support
| consistently in Ukraine.
|
| 2) Azov battalion - indeed had been formed with a few
| neo-Nazis, when Ukraine was literally is complete
| disarray. However it's very much an overblown issue. The
| irony is that the people they were fighting against were
| Russian neo-Nazis - Rusich battalion is neo-Nazi.
|
| 2a) Ukraine actually held accountable another neo-nazi
| battalion for their war crimes. And Russian propaganda is
| calling anyone "Azov battalion".
|
| 3) Yes, there's a few anti-soviet activists that are
| branded as Nazis. But to point to Bandera, that spent
| most of the war in a concentration camp(1941-43?), is a
| little ignorant. There's a however - these memorials to
| Bandera have not had any affect on Nazi support in
| today's Ukraine.
| JAlexoid wrote:
| Russian imperialism and revanchism - very simple answer.
| codedokode wrote:
| I think that there could be many reasons why Russians
| support a special operation.
|
| In glorious Soviet times Russians ruled 16 countries
| (including Ukraine) that were parts of USSR, had puppet
| governments in Eastern Europe and friendly governments in
| Middle Asia and Africa (and by the way Russian Empire was
| even larger and included territories of modern Poland and
| Finland). Traitor Gorbachev surrended Eastern Germany and
| East European countries to America, and traitor Yeltsin
| (first President of Russia) helped to disintegrate USSR.
| Many ex-USSR countries were lured into NATO and turned
| against Russia. Due to Yeltsin following malignant American
| advices, Russian economy has collapsed, crime rate has
| raised, and oligarchs have stolen valuable assets, leaving
| people in poverty.
|
| America also defeated many former Russian allies, like
| Yugoslavia. Then America refused to stop NATO expansion to
| the East.
|
| So some people might want a revanche. They want Russia to
| be strong, victorous and glorious and not a third-world
| country surrounded by American bases preparing to make a
| final blow. And if that is not possible, at least they want
| to stop NATO from expanding to the East.
|
| Also, in Ukraine there are Russian people and some believe
| that they are treated there unfairly. For example, they are
| not taught Russian language at school, there is no Russian
| television and so on. Obviously, Russia must protect them.
|
| Also, propaganda doesn't call it a "war". It is actually
| illegal to call it a war. It is a "special military
| operation" for liberation of Ukranian people from Nazis and
| American influence. As Putin stated, Russia doesn't plan to
| occupy Ukranian territories.
|
| Russia had no choice and no other means to prevent a big
| war planned by the West, propaganda says.
|
| So there might be people who believe propaganda. If they
| have no other sources of information, what should they
| think?
|
| Also, here are some quotes from a pro-government news
| agency TASS. Hope they give an idea how propaganda portrays
| the situation around Ukraine:
|
| > the majority of Russian respondents - 88% - agreed that
| there are nazist organizations in Ukraine that are a threat
| to Russia ... 70% of respondents stated that Unkrainian
| government supports such nazist organizations ... According
| to the results of the poll, most respondents expect that
| special military operation will end with a trial of
| Ukranian nazis for commited crimes. [1]
|
| > Medinsky (presidential aide) : The crimes commited by
| Ukranian government against Russian people in Ukraine
| became a challenge for Russia ... Russia has to protect
| peaceful civilians, its compatriots, who were assaulted,
| killed, threatened... [2]
|
| > Russian senator Ekaterina Altabaeva: one cannot exclude
| Russia from world politics, and current special operation
| for denazification of the country and protection of
| Russian-speaking citizens affirms a fateful role that
| Russia has always played in the world history ... at the
| end of 18th century not a single gun in Europe was allowed
| to fire without Russia's permission... [3]
|
| And here is quote from other news agency:
|
| > Military operation in Donbass is not a beginning of a
| war, but an attempt to prevent a global war, said
| spokeswoman of Ministry of Foreign Affairs ... also, it is
| an ending of the war that has been continuing for 8 years.
| [4]
|
| So if someone wants to understand what an average Russian
| sees in the news or in social networks or on the Yandex
| frontpage, try reading sites like TASS or Interfax Russia,
| or 1tv.
|
| [1] https://tass.ru/obschestvo/14412735
|
| [2] https://tass.ru/politika/14414033
|
| [3] https://tass.ru/politika/14412115
|
| [4] https://www.interfax.ru/russia/824241
| fabrika wrote:
| Very often they say things like this: "War is certainly bad
| and unfair, but we have to go all the way once we have
| started it". Or, "the war is unfair, but I can't be against
| my own country".
|
| There are no war supporters among people I know though,
| everyone has their own bubble.
| lotusmars wrote:
| This is the most widespread position. On the hardline
| side there are variations of "you want gay parades?",
| "Ukrainians hate Russians and are Nazis", "[blacks, but
| usually the n-word] are fighting for Ukranians", "NATO is
| trying to destroy us and we must protect ourselves".
| pain2022 wrote:
| "Independent pollsters", my ass. According to their polls,
| Navalny support was 0-1% while so many people was arrested
| during demonstrations in his support in Moscow that thousands
| were put into immigrant detention center instead of regular
| jails.
|
| Also, people are scared they will get fired from their
| government jobs or worse if they voice opposition.
| throwaway3968 wrote:
| I've heard from my parents they would get fired from their
| non-government jobs too, if anti-war slogans were found on
| their social media. They also called me repeatedly asking
| not to participate in rallies, or they would "die of a
| heart attack". I used to organize those a few years back,
| and it sort of didn't end well.
| mk3 wrote:
| You do realize Moscow is a multimillion city so the 10k
| demonstration is nothing.
| codedokode wrote:
| You cannot claim that the only people who are against
| Putin are those who took part in illegal protests that
| are punished with hefty fines and arrests. Not everyone
| is that brave.
|
| While Putin might have high rating in the polls, his
| party United Russia could win only 50% of seats in Moscow
| Parliament in 2019 (after most popular independent
| candidates were not allowed to be in the ballot).
| Furthermore, members of United Russia nominated as
| independent candidates to hide their party affiliation.
| If you believe that only ten thousands people are against
| the government then how can you explain this?
|
| Another example is that Navalny was denied to register a
| political party for many years. If he has only 1% or 2%
| of supporters, as propaganda claims, why deny registering
| a party? Let him take part in election and get his
| deserved 1% with a disgrace (by the way, in 2013 Moscow
| Mayor election he got 27% of votes and obviously that was
| the last election he was allowed to take part in).
|
| So from the above facts I can conclude that Putin's
| support is not absolute. There are reasons why he doesn't
| allow to hold fair elections, why protests are not
| allowed, why all major mass media are controlled by the
| government and Internet is censored. You don't need this
| with true 80% voter support.
| lotusmars wrote:
| 10k is the number of people who were ready to be beaten,
| detained, tortured, have huge fines and later have their
| families harrassed.
| xtian wrote:
| Also urban liberals aren't representative of the country
| as a whole
| Nerwesta wrote:
| nailed it. That's a bias I'm surprised very few people
| are able to grasp in the Internets, the same urban
| liberals ( from any country really ) or higher class tend
| to favor Western social networks, or be simply pro-
| Western, thus completely biaising the " I'm [Insert your
| nationality here] .. blablabla " It's especially rampant
| on Global South or emerging countries, while the richer
| people can actually afford slacking on Reddit responding
| to a mostly Anglophone audience.
| pain2022 wrote:
| You do realize only a fraction of demonstration was
| arrested, and that for every person who risked getting
| beaten up and arrested there are many of his friends and
| relatives who support his views
| zo1 wrote:
| That's why we have polls and statistics, instead of
| relying on the "most vocal" and supposedly "most
| courageous" people that "brave" the streets to protest. I
| personally don't buy it.
| purerandomness wrote:
| Again, there are no independent institutions or media
| left who could conduct polls and statistics.
|
| All "polls and statistics" you see are basically
| fabricated by the government, either directly, or by
| induced fear.
| TremendousJudge wrote:
| Any political poll conducted on an authoritarian state
| will not be trustworthy either. It's like going to a
| black neighborhood on the US and doing a poll on
| marijuana use. Many people will not admit to illegal
| activity. This is something an statistics professor will
| say in any basic introductory course.
| pessimizer wrote:
| If you're going to make up numbers, why not make up a
| majority? Be more ambitious.
| green-eclipse wrote:
| 10k is absolutely something in an authoritarian country
| when there is no free speech at all or freedom of
| assembly. And serious repercussions for those seen as
| against Putin.
| honkdaddy wrote:
| Less than 10% of Russians live in Moscow, which is by far
| Russia's most liberal and Westernized city. The
| uncomfortable fact which progressives around the world seem
| to be having trouble with is that on average, most Russians
| absolutely do support the war and do see my family's home-
| country, Ukraine, as being a rightful part of Russia.
| CuriouslyC wrote:
| Yeah, rural idiots will be rural idiots. There are also a
| lot of dipshits in america that would still love to lynch
| some black folks if they thought they could get away with
| it.
|
| I'm sure it doesn't help that rural russians are kept in
| an info-bubble and spoon fed state propaganda.
| JasonFruit wrote:
| I think you get your opinions of rural Americans from
| fiction, because I've lived among rural people most of my
| life and met only one or two people who think that way,
| about the same frequency as people in cities. Art
| imitates life when that doesn't get in the way of
| emotional drama.
| honkdaddy wrote:
| I think the number of rural Americans who truly and
| earnestly wish death upon Black Americans is an
| absolutely tiny minority compared to the amount of rural
| Russians who support the invasion of Ukraine.
|
| I don't think your comparison really says anything
| interesting, apart from your bias against rural
| Americans.
| alm1 wrote:
| It probably won't change your mind, but here is a pretty
| transparent poll on a mix of Russians at a train station
| in Moscow (to capture some from outside the
| metropolises). The multi hour poll is a continuous video
| to show lack of selection bias (parts with no speech are
| fast forwarded) https://youtu.be/eNwe24PlPTQ
|
| About half the Russians don't support the war. I hope the
| conflict ends soon.
| megous wrote:
| Lack of selection bias would be selecting according to
| demography distribution. Looks like this sample has young
| people way overrepresented, by clikcing through a video.
| And young people support the war slightly less.
| unicornporn wrote:
| Stop dreaming, support _is_ strong. Washington Post via
| Levada reports an enormous 80-percent approval rating.[1]
|
| [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/
| 03/26...
| lbrito wrote:
| >What doesn't happen everywhere and every time is a rogue
| nation attacking their neighbors and killing civilians using
| laughable pretexts while the real goal is to take control of a
| very resourceful and industrialized area
|
| I can think of one very powerful country doing _exactly_ that
| for over half a century. Hope we 're all collectively raging
| against anything coming from that country.
|
| My comment does not imply in pro russianism in any way. They
| are the aggressors. I hate that I have to write this
| disclaimer.
| hnarn wrote:
| The reason you have to write that disclaimer is that you're
| by definition being a "useful idiot" by repeating the
| favorite argument of the Russian regime: whataboutism/tu
| quoque. What the US has done in the past or is doing right
| now is completely irrelevant when judging Russia's actions in
| Ukraine.
| gtirloni wrote:
| That's simple whataboutism. What's your point?
| lbrito wrote:
| Respectfully disagree. Whataboutism is when you try to
| relativize something by citing an equally bad example from
| some other side. I'm explicitly _not_ relativizing
| anything. A whataboutist comment would be "the US does the
| same [so what Russia is doing is fine", which is the
| opposite of what I implied: "the US does the same [equally
| bad thing, we should condemn both]".
|
| The war is an unjustified aggression. It is great that
| Ukraine has been getting international sympathy and
| support. It would be great if we all had a similar response
| in the many other comparable cases that unfortunately
| happened in the past.
| gtirloni wrote:
| It's an equal deflection from the main point that adds
| very little to the discussion. You could have equally
| said "The war is an unjustified aggression BUT the USA
| has been doing that for a long time too so..." and the
| message would have been the same. You just phrased it
| differently.
| Nerwesta wrote:
| I feel like nobody can read the actual definition of this
| term, and how and why it is used in a conversation.
| gtirloni wrote:
| Sure you can.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
|
| https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-
| play/whataboutism-o...
| zackees wrote:
| Please keep your personal politics off hacker news. Your one
| sided opinion mirrors the western propaganda position and i can
| literally turn everywhere to hear it.
|
| I have followed this entire debacle since the US did its coup
| in Ukraine in 2014 and actually understand things like the
| broken Minsk agreement and the 14k Donbas civilians that have
| been slaughtered by Azov battalion since 2014. The assertion
| that Russia is doing this to capture land to enrich itself is
| pure fiction. This is the Russian cuban missle crisis. I don't
| agree with Russia invading Ukraine but on the other I
| understand it. The fault on this lies with the US and NATO and
| their creeping desire to place nukes closer and closer to
| Russia. The US's illegal bio weapons labs in the country are
| also a big problem.
| Nerwesta wrote:
| >14k Donbas civilians that have been slaughtered by Azov
| battalion since 2014.
|
| It seems you didn't read the datas very well, it's ~14k in
| total in Donbas from both sides, not only civilians. And
| surely not by Azov.
| xtian wrote:
| According to the OSCE, the majority of ceasefire violations
| occurred against the separatist-controlled areas, which
| also contain the vast majority of the civilian population.
| megous wrote:
| Citation needed.
|
| You should also clarify what is "ceasefire violation
| against the separatist-controlled area", because that
| doesn't sound like OSCE SMM terminology.
|
| If you read SMM reports, they classify location of
| violations, and type. So if violation is in non
| government controlled territory, it can be anything from
| training, outgoing explosions, impact explosions, ...
|
| So you can have a ceasefire violation in NGCA that is a
| shell impact there, or fire from there, or just training.
| Most violations are undeteremined.
| xtian wrote:
| Of course it's not possible to determine the source with
| absolute certainty, but most of the violations had been
| recorded east of the demarcation line, for instance in
| this report:
|
| https://www.osce.org/files/2022-02-20-21%20Daily%20Report
| _EN...
|
| The UN has reported that 81.4% of civilian casualties
| occurred in territory controlled by the Donbas republics:
|
| https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2022-02/Confli
| ct-...
|
| Is the reasonable conclusion that these deaths resulted
| from training and outgoing explosions?
| postsantum wrote:
| The fact russian propaganda is not using this comparison with
| cuban crisis means they're absolutely incompetent. It's so
| obvious and pushes the reader to go beyond the "goodies and
| baddies" understanding
| pphysch wrote:
| RF is not the USSR, and Russian domestic audiences don't
| need a distant historical analogy to understand what is
| going on.
| postsantum wrote:
| For external consumption, I mean
| pphysch wrote:
| How would Moscow get that messaging to foreign, say
| American, audiences?
| postsantum wrote:
| Good question. That's probably the point of the blanket
| ban on RT
| jotm wrote:
| Why don't you keep your politics off lol. The vast majority
| disagrees with you. If you think you're enlightened, good for
| you.
| cies wrote:
| petard wrote:
| I think killing civilians using laughable pretext (weapons of
| mass destruction anyone?) with the goal of taking over or
| ensuring control over resources is not particular a Russian
| thing. Like invading an oil-rich country over the pretext of
| weapons of mass destruction.
| codedokode wrote:
| It's not that simple. Yandex has a frontpage that is viewed by
| tens of millions of users daily and is equivalent to TV. And
| Yandex since long ago has been intentionally filtering news
| that are shown there, for example, keeping silent about anti-
| Putin protests etc. So Yandex has been helping to spread
| propaganda for many years.
|
| Please don't portray Yandex as a victim of strict martial laws
| (although oficially there is no war, only a "special
| operation". Calling it a war is an offence).
| postingposts wrote:
| Since you say it's "not that simple", do you _truly believe_
| it's out of the reach of the Russian govt. to punish this
| company or the members of it for stepping out of line?
| They're a large company in tech but how about their resources
| for personnel security, or what if they've been ordered to do
| so legally?
|
| Let's go beyond that. Let's say that Yandex has been
| spreading propaganda _on purpose_ for _multiple years_.
| That's every other search engine too. Especially Google! If
| Russia or China wins a conflict, or begins one economically,
| do the _employees of Google_ deserve to be punished for their
| work during this time? When you use logic and apply the same
| logic to the situation in reverse, it's quite apparent that
| you have a bias, and that bias isn't serving you well.
| codedokode wrote:
| Yandex could simply not display any news at their frontpage
| instead of displaying propaganda. I doubt that there would
| be any consequences for it. After all, it is a search
| engine and not a news agency.
| lotusmars wrote:
| > That's every other search engine too.
|
| Please leave your "look at the West" whataboutism out of
| it. In the end it's your problem how you solve it.
|
| We in Russia had our media crushed, filtered by Yandex and
| most journalists fled the country or were murdered.
|
| Your whataboutism is just trying to diminish our struggle.
| postingposts wrote:
| Can you address my points instead of trying to assign
| some sort of ideological slant to them? Not only is it
| much stronger for your argument but it's more honest
| discourse.
|
| Nothing you have said in your post is unique to the
| geography, at all. If that makes you feel less special,
| good; there is nothing special about being from one
| geographical location or another, and nothing special
| about a murder in Africa vs. a murder in South America.
|
| Murder is murder, you don't have a worse kind. If there
| is something to discuss, it's not from an angle of
| ideological context-macht.
| lotusmars wrote:
| You just try to downplay struggle of oppressed people in
| non-West countries for some reason by saying "welp it
| happens everywhere nothing special". It's so puzzling why
| Americans do it all the time.
| postingposts wrote:
| No, I'm not placing any special status on your suffering
| vs. mine. I'm puzzled why you think I should think you're
| special?
| lotusmars wrote:
| I'm puzzled why we should always talk about America, your
| government, your policies, social media and search
| engines? People in the third world want oppression off
| their backs and if you think you don't have democracy,
| well too bad, we still want it.
| postingposts wrote:
| Who is forcing you to? Again, you are not special.
| VWWHFSfQ wrote:
| > The enemy is the Russian government and the rich oligarchy
| behind it, not Russian people
|
| I think we're all getting real tired of this line. This is,
| what, the 3rd time that place has collapsed in the last 100
| years? This is a pattern. And I think it's time to start
| holding the Russian people accountable for it.
| Jach wrote:
| The Eternal Russian?
|
| Similar thinking was part of WW2 propaganda:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb2YenLG_rQ (Fun fact: script
| written by Dr. Seuss.)
| Nerwesta wrote:
| Sure, hold accountable people that didn't choose where were
| they born and obviously weren't alive to witness the pattern
| you're trying to state right now.
| lotusmars wrote:
| No, Nuremberg is a legit framework for this.
| mk3 wrote:
| The Russian company forced to comply with Russia part says it
| all. They are aiding regime, don't see them prioritizing real
| results over propaganda in serps. And who owns yandex yet
| another rich guy with ties from government. At the moment tbh
| everything from Russia is a poison pill including open source
| software.
| cies wrote:
| >The Russian company forced to comply with Russia part says
| it all.
|
| How is this less true from US companies forced to comply with
| the US govt?
|
| > everything from Russia is a poison pill including open
| source software.
|
| based on what?
| pyuser583 wrote:
| The US military never forbade reporting on bodies returning
| home. My local paper regularly covered the returning of bodies
| and funerals of service members.
|
| The military didn't give the press inside access to the process
| of returning bodies, unless they agreed not to photograph.
|
| The fact that the military wasn't allowing members of the press
| access to events that members of the general public were
| forbidden from is not censorship.
|
| Heck, the press actually were allowed special access, but only
| on the condition they not photograph.
|
| Freedom of the press is not the same as privileged access for
| the press.
|
| And the policy began in the first gulf war, but the second.
| nix23 wrote:
| >The US military never forbade reporting on bodies returning
| home.
|
| >>U.S. lifts photo ban on military coffins
|
| >>In a reversal of an 18-year-old military policy that
| critics said was hiding the ultimate cost of the wars in Iraq
| and Afghanistan,
|
| https://web.archive.org/web/20220302035710/https://www.nytim.
| ..
| pyuser583 wrote:
| You claimed the press wasn't allowed to report on military
| coffins returning home:
|
| > During the 2nd gulf war against Iraq, when the death toll
| began to rise, the US government forbade the reporting of
| military personnel coffins returning from the war zone
|
| This is demonstrably false:
|
| https://la.indymedia.org/news/2008/01/212729.php
|
| You then provided an article that said the US had reversed
| its policy of "not allowing photographs" of military
| coffins.
|
| Which is a very different thing from not reporting on them.
|
| The rule against photographs only applied military bases,
| which already have very strict rules about photography.
|
| Your initial claim was that there reporters were forbidden
| to report on bodies returning home. You made this claim to
| draw a parallel with Russian censorship.
|
| The Russians arent merely making access to military bases
| conditional on not taking photographs - they're engaging in
| political censorship.
|
| Again, it's very, very, very common to restrict photography
| on military bases, even by members of the press.
| nix23 wrote:
| >This is demonstrably false:
|
| No it's not, read the article.
|
| https://web.archive.org/web/20220302035710/https://www.ny
| tim...
|
| >>the news media will now be allowed to photograph the
| flag-draped coffins of America's war dead as their bodies
| are returned to the United States
|
| And please stop with your cheap "indymedia"
|
| >Which is a very different thing from not reporting on
| them.
|
| Yes different but not far away from hiding...you know a
| picture say's more then thousand word's, the pentagon
| knows that too.
|
| The difference is seeing 30 coffins on the way home,
| compared to one coffin returning to he's home village.
|
| 1 Coffin = Bad, but it is like it is.
|
| 30 Coffins on one Flight/Picture...terrible.
| pyuser583 wrote:
| > The difference is seeing 30 coffins on the way home,
| compared to one coffin returning to he's home village.
|
| > 1 Coffin = Bad, but it is like it is.
|
| > 30 Coffins on one Flight/Picture...terrible.
|
| Is that what the Russian government is doing?
|
| Restricting photographs on government facilities to
| prevent bad optics (while allowing reporters to write,
| say, publish, and broadcast whatever they want)?
|
| Reporters in Russia are free to publish what they want?
|
| Remember, you brought this up to draw a parallel with
| what the Russian government is doing.
| nix23 wrote:
| >Is that what the Russian government is doing?
|
| No that's what the canceled US policy was for...did you
| still not read the article?
|
| In Russia you can't talk about it because it's a state
| secret now, means you are not allowed to talk about
| deaths in the "special" operation.
|
| No sure why you are so blind on one eye but not on the
| other?
|
| >Remember, you brought this up to draw a parallel with
| what the Russian government is doing.
|
| I did never said it's the same. But it has the same goal,
| try to hide the results of war on your own soldiers.
|
| As you can read:
|
| >>Yes different but not far away from hiding...you know a
| picture say's more then thousand word's, the pentagon
| knows that too.
| JAlexoid wrote:
| > Until we know for sure that their management is really
| aligned with their government agenda, whatever they say, or
| don't say, now has zero credibility because it could be
| extorted from above.
|
| Em... We know, actually.
|
| Simply because the current management is assigned to manage
| Yandex by Kremlin. It's the same case with VKontakte and
| MailRu. We have Telegram, because Kremlin pushed Durov out of
| the company.
|
| So before you deflect - maybe ask Russian people that know what
| was happening in Russia for the last 20 years.
| lotusmars wrote:
| It's wild how Western commenters say "we don't know for sure"
| when it was all public, they just didn't pay attention.
|
| VKontakte is a great example because was literally a hostile
| takeover from Durov to Kremlin's oligarch Usmanov. They even
| accused Durov of "running over a policeman" as a threat to
| his arrest.
|
| Other Russian media were consolidated as well mainly around
| Gazprom structures and holdings controlled by Sergey
| Chemezov, Putin's long time friend from his East Germany work
| and an ex-KGB general.
| cies wrote:
| > To those condemning Yandex for the war in Ukraine
|
| Think about western oil companies and several wars in the
| middle east. Those companies actually lobbied for conflict in
| some cases.
|
| > the US government forbade the reporting of military personnel
| coffins returning from the war zone, and news sources complied
|
| And there a democracy died. (again)
|
| > What doesn't happen everywhere and every time is a rogue
| nation attacking their neighbors and killing civilians using
| laughable pretexts while the real goal is to take control of a
| very resourceful and industrialized area (Donbas) to be used to
| help the already poor Russian economy.
|
| This is one side of the story. The Ukrainian side. There is
| another side to that, in which the pro-Russian part of the
| Ukrainian population was silenced. Before Maidan 2014 the
| biggest party was pro-Russian (30%) and after Maidan they were
| forbidden to exist. The people of the Donbas have been
| terrorized by Ukrainian military. Ukrainians who have nazi
| training camps for children (there is a whole documentary about
| them from The Guardian on YT).
|
| > The enemy is the Russian government and the rich oligarchy
| behind it
|
| Same with the Iraq wars, Libya, Vietnam, Afganistan and the US.
| Let call out all oppressors.
|
| But then the Kiev government since 2014 also needs to be called
| out for the atrocities on the Donbas.
| some_random wrote:
| Absolutely incredible whataboutism, your restatement of
| Russian propaganda needs some work though, you should focus
| more on Azov maybe.
| woodruffw wrote:
| What's the point of this comment? You don't have to like or
| support the US or deny its atrocities to observe the
| atrocities currently being committed in Ukraine.
|
| > Ukrainians who have nazi training camps for children (there
| is a whole documentary about them from The Guardian on YT).
|
| I think it would behoove you to actually link to this. It's
| hard to tell from context whether you're claiming that the
| Ukrainian government is engaging in neo-Nazi education (this
| would be extraordinary) or whether some neo-Nazis in Ukraine
| are doing so (this would be upsetting, but not particularly
| surprising for Eastern Europe in general).
| xtian wrote:
| The Guardian video is here:
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jiBXmbkwiSw
|
| The paramilitary group which organized the camp was
| officially integrated into the Ukrainian National Guard.
| One of its members recently joined Zelensky in addressing
| the Greek parliament:
| https://greekreporter.com/2022/04/07/greek-azov-fighter-
| zele...
| cies wrote:
| Openly Ukrainian nazi youth training camp video, by the
| Guardian (western MSM), in 2017, easy to find on YT. And
| organizer also has ties to Kiev gov't. Story unfolding...
| But down voted :)
| cies wrote:
| > What's the point of this comment?
|
| The west is so quick to condemn Russia, where the west has
| been warring all over the place with less good reasons to
| invaded that Russia. Keep in mind that: there are many
| Russians is Ukra, Russians were marginalized in Ukra
| especially since 2014, Russia is next to Ukra (unlike the
| middle east to say the US) so they have reasons to protect
| their safety, Ukra got Crimea during USSR times from
| Russia, and Putin made clear demands of what is needed for
| the war to be over (not part of any block, accept Crimea is
| Russia, Donbas gains autonomy).
|
| This is a much more understandable invasion to me than Iraq
| 1+2, Libya, Syria, Afganistan and Vietnam.
|
| > I think it would behoove you to actually link to this.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiBXmbkwiSw
|
| > It's hard to tell from context whether you're claiming
| that the Ukrainian government is engaging in neo-Nazi
| education (this would be extraordinary) or whether some
| neo-Nazis in Ukraine are doing so (this would be upsetting,
| but not particularly surprising for Eastern Europe in
| general).
|
| The second. But no crackdown from the central gov't (while
| it breaks international law) and you see links with the
| openly nazi Azov battalion everywhere in the training camp.
| dshpala wrote:
| Correction - what is happening is not an "invasion", it's
| war. War, plain and simple.
|
| The first step to fixing a problem is naming it. And
| Russians can't even do that.
| reducesuffering wrote:
| A Russian invasion of Ukraine is more understandable than
| "Iraq 1", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War , which
| was Iraq invading Kuwait and the US freeing Kuwait from
| Iraqi invasion, scud missiles, and tanks?
|
| Of course that's more "understandable" to you, because
| the rest of your history is equally misinformed and
| backwards.
| vladgur wrote:
| Are you calling Ukraine Ukra? I cant tell if you are
| trying to save bandwidth or sound demeaning to the
| country and its people.
|
| These so-called safety reasons are Russian propaganda
| lies as there was 0 reasons for a nuclear-armed Russia to
| be afraid of Ukrainian military attacking its
| territories.
|
| Remember, Ukrainian politics have a lifespan of 4 years,
| so they have to fight to stay in the office. For Russian,
| their czar is forever, so his illusions of grandeur are
| lifelong.
| Nerwesta wrote:
| It's a bit of both really, the far-right extremists helped
| the Maidan regime change, so the paramilitary made
| themselves at home inside the governement and in many areas
| in this country ( remember, that's a large country, divided
| and diverse ). Now ? I really don't know, but if you happen
| to see any report before February 2022 you could have your
| questions answered easily. Without them, the revolution
| wouldn't be successful. Reports dating back to 2014-2015
| clearly show children being educated in a strange manner,
| when it was kind of allowed to say the complicated truth
| inside this nation.
| federoccco wrote:
| Point by point. 1. The same politicians who were in party of
| regions (Yanukovich party) quickly reorganized into new
| political parties. So there were "pro-Russian" political
| parties in Ukrainian politics, who participated in parliament
| elections in 2014 and in 2019, and in presidential elections
| in 2014 and 2019. So the point that people in Eastern Ukraine
| were marginalized politically is a lie.
|
| 2. Ukrainian forces in 2014-2015 attacked armed forces of
| separatists and Russian troops, civilians never were the
| target. More than a million people left separatist republics
| for Ukraine, why would they do that if they were terrorized?
|
| 3. There are training camps for youth in Ukraine, which are
| funded by political organizations. They are not "Nazi",
| similar things exist in Russia as well - like Yunarmiya for
| example.
| lotusmars wrote:
| So tired of this Kremlin propaganda everywhere and Western
| people actually believing it. We were force fed this bullshit
| everyday on Russian TV and Yandex News. Please resist it
| while we in Russia couldn't.
| tonguez wrote:
| compelling counter-argument
| jotm wrote:
| > after Maidan they were forbidden to exist.
|
| not back then, but they banned them in March during the war.
|
| > Kiev government since 2014 also needs to be called out for
| the atrocities on the Donbas
|
| 1. Donbas separatists (backed by Russia + actual Russian
| forces) started the conflict. 2. Why didn't Russia just clear
| out Donbas/Luhansk republics instead of the whole of Ukraine?
|
| I hope you live in Russia, it's perfect for you.
| cies wrote:
| > 1. Donbas separatists (backed by Russia + actual Russian
| forces) started the conflict.
|
| Before or after the pro-Russian political party was
| forbidden? Let's assume people in Donbas voted that a lot,
| would seperatism be such a weird thing for them?
|
| 2. Why didn't Russia just clear out Donbas/Luhansk
| republics instead of the whole of Ukraine?
|
| I dont know the Russian military's strategy decisions. But
| I think we can all agree the focus of this war is on the
| Donbas. The approach to Kiev seems to have been a
| diversion. Some expect a major push to Kiev in the coming
| weeks; some expect the peace deal (the Russian demands been
| pretty clear from the start) to be signed right before Kiev
| gets taken.
| krzyk wrote:
| Again pro Russian party was forbidden when Russia
| attacked.
|
| Do you think having a potential traitor party during war
| is good?
|
| Where there many pro German parties during WW2 in
| countries that it attacked?
|
| Please tell me how was Czeczen separatists treated in
| Russia? If Russia is so for separations of other nations
| let their own republics do the same.
| cies wrote:
| > Do you think having a potential traitor party during
| war is good?
|
| If the biggest party before Maidan (30%) is forbidden as
| a "traitor party", can it be really called as such? Or
| was Ukraine before Maidan openly pro-Russian, and was the
| Kiev regime the traitors?
|
| > Please tell me how was Czeczen separatists treated in
| Russia?
|
| I cannot agree more. Not always separatists are allowed
| to separate. Even Spain had a episode of that recently.
|
| Though, the pro-Russian crowd in Ukraine feels somewhat
| Russian, and Russia is sympathetic to them. If the
| Czeczens were entically chinese, their faith may also've
| been different.
| krzyk wrote:
| I just checked and Party of Regions was never forbidden,
| many people just left it and joined other parties (e.g.
| party of the 2014 elected president Poroszenko)
|
| BTW. If your president runs to another country and that
| country comes back with and army, what do you do? Oh, and
| before that that same president begs that other country
| to invade and bring peace. (and prime minister also fleds
| to that invading country, just before the invasion). Even
| Party of Regions removed Yanukovych from his members.
|
| For westerners: in Ukraine one could have a special
| "note" that allowed voting in any "voting office" - this
| should be used only in special cases when you are not
| sure where you will be during the voting (normally you
| are assigned to vote in your home region). As one might
| guess it was used to do some shenanigans, like a bunch of
| miners from eastern parts where being driven to many
| votes with those special notes. No one checked if given
| person voted once, or ten times. And there were many
| buses with such people.
|
| And Russia really cares about Russophiles, they made two
| regions separate from Georgia in 2008, and they did the
| same in Ukraine in 2014. Coincidentally it was at the
| time both of those countries started taking a Western
| turn (speaking about EU and NATO membership).
| jotm wrote:
| You can shove your opinion and discussion up your ass. I
| hope my country goes to war if need be (we were notified
| back in March before it became apparent Ukraine is more
| than capable of holding the fascists off lol). Death is
| preferable to being Russia's bitch. Fuck that country and
| everything it stands for.
| kspacewalk2 wrote:
| >There is another side to that, in which the pro-Russian part
| of the Ukrainian population was silenced.
|
| Fiction. Silenced how? They are in parliament, and until
| recently Russia-sponsored TV propaganda outlets were on the
| air throughtout Ukraine.
|
| >Before Maidan 2014 the biggest party was pro-Russian (30%)
| and after Maidan they were forbidden to exist.
|
| More fiction. Party of Regions existed after Yanukovych fled
| and merged into another pro-Russia outfit in 2016.
|
| >The people of the Donbas have been terrorized by Ukrainian
| military.
|
| 16 civilians died in Donbas in 2021, that's on both sides. 25
| died in 2020. It was a very low-scale war and most people
| were living in peace.
|
| But goodie goodie, Russia has come to liberate them, and is
| now murdering thousands with indiscriminate bombings, to say
| nothing of the mass executions, rapes and so on.
|
| >Ukrainians who have nazi training camps for children (there
| is a whole documentary about them from The Guardian on YT).
|
| This happens everywhere. I personally know someone in Russia
| who sent their kids to very sketchy pan-Slavic 'rodnover'
| far-right camps.
| CapricornNoble wrote:
| >>>>16 civilians died in Donbas in 2021, that's on both
| sides. 25 died in 2020. It was a very low-scale war and
| most people were living in peace.
|
| And how many were bombed by their own government 2014-2019?
| I get the impression they are still pissed about that.
|
| https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-airstrike-
| kills-11-dem...
|
| Everyone with an interest in this conflict should be
| searching on DuckDuckGo with their date range set to 2021
| _at the latest_. Western persectives on Zelensky (-2021),
| perspectives on the conflict in the east (2014-2016), or
| the really good stuff is Western experts warning about the
| risks of NATO expansion (set your date range 2000-2010).
| kspacewalk2 wrote:
| >I get the impression they are still pissed about that.
|
| Well, that makes not a lick of sense. A war took place 8
| years ago, mostly died down, people lived in relative
| peace, and now Russia starts a war of aggression on a
| whole new scale, rains death from the air, unleashes its
| troops to commit mass murder, takes thousands of civilian
| lives because "they are still pissed about that"?
|
| And pissed about what? Its own actions? Russia instigated
| a war in 2014 by creating a proxy army out of thin air
| (and funding, arming and manning it with its own
| soldiers), then just straight up invaded in August of
| 2014 with its own regular forces. They routinely bombed
| civilian areas without any regard for the civilians still
| in them, used civilians as human shields, positioned MRLS
| launchers inside apartment blocks, etc.
|
| I don't know what happened in the airstrike you brought
| up, except to say that by July 2014 Ukrainian air force
| wasn't used much due to Russians bringing in their SAM
| systems, such as the Buk that shot down MH-17 just two
| days after this article. Especially in 2014, Ukrainian
| army was a rag-tag outfit using Soviet-era tactics, and
| they did occasionally hit civilian areas in situations
| when a more modern army would be able to avoid it. There
| were instances where you can say they tactics did not
| sufficiently account for civilians. There were many more
| instances where Russia proxies used civilians as shields
| with success, however, and the Ukrainian military showed
| restraint.
|
| Either way, at the end of the day the blame for wars of
| aggression has to lie with the aggressor, not the victim
| that's defending itself. This was true in 2014, and it's
| sure as fuck true in 2022.
|
| Not even gonna get into that whole "NATO expansion"
| clusterfuck. If you think a fascist dictatorship should
| have veto powers over which defensive alliances its
| democratic neighbours voluntarily choose to join, there's
| not much there left to discuss.
| cies wrote:
| > Not even gonna get into that whole "NATO expansion"
| clusterfuck. If you think a fascist dictatorship should
| have veto powers over which defensive alliances its
| democratic neighbours voluntarily choose to join, there's
| not much there left to discuss.
|
| Russia now a "fascist dictatorship"? Hmm...
|
| What about a western democracy (US) that claims "veto
| powers over which defensive alliances its" neighour
| (Cuba) has? But than it is different, right, when it is
| Nato, and it has scared it's population shitless for "the
| communists". Then it is allowed to invade... Yeah right.
|
| To me Russia invading Ukraine is like US invading Cuba:
| you could see it coming from miles ahead. The big bad
| agressor's "security needs".
| kspacewalk2 wrote:
| While I disagree with the trade blockade, I don't think
| there's any equivalence here. We don't know what Cuba
| wants any more than we know what Belarus or North Korea
| wants. We can approximately equate the country with the
| people in terms of 'wants' and actions only if the
| country is actually ran by its people, democratically.
| Cuba is controlled by a totalitarian regime, and its
| people cannot decide on which defensive alliances to join
| because the Cuban government doesn't ask them.
|
| >To me Russia invading Ukraine is like US invading Cuba:
| you could see it coming from miles ahead. The big bad
| agressor's "security needs".
|
| Except the US did not invade Cuba, did not bomb thousands
| of civilians into ashes, did not murder every male
| citizen of a small town before retreating from it, etc.
|
| Hey, come to think of it, you know who did that last part
| in Cuba? The Cuban dictatorship. Thousands of political
| prisoners have been murdered since 1959. I wonder if
| anyone polled them on which defensive alliance Cuba ought
| to join before putting a bullet into their head.
| vladgur wrote:
| The article itself mentions that both sides blame each
| other without taking accountability. The story of Donetsk
| and Luhansk is littered with influence by FSB operatives
| as well pro-Russian ukrainian politics back in 2014.
|
| The statement above with civilian deaths being in low
| double digits in 2021 is correct as the conflict has
| reached the status quo which had a good chance of being
| resolved politically.
|
| Whatever our stance on the reason behind the conflict in
| Eastern Ukraine is, we seem to agree that it was pretty
| bad in 2014-2019 and it has been relatively low-key in
| 2019(Zelenskiy got elected) and on. Any civilian deaths
| are terrible, but to put things in perspective: more
| people Died in car accidents in DNR/LNR then due to the
| conflict.
|
| So any reasoning of Russia attacking Ukraine, flattening
| cities, destroying civilian buildings as being caused by
| a conflict in DNR/LNR is pure Russian propaganda.
| ttybird2 wrote:
| _" more people Died in car accidents in DNR/LNR then due
| to the conflict."_
|
| Traffic related deaths should not be underestimated, they
| are more common than people think. In fact, so far more
| civilians have died in car accidents in Ukraine (see http
| s://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r.
| ..) than in the conflict (using statistics by the UN
| https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1115042).
|
| Although I personally don't understand the point of this
| argument. If "only" 40 people die then it's somehow ok
| but if 1000 die then military action is suddenly
| justifiable?
| alexryndin wrote:
| You can't say "fiction" to anything just because you don't
| like it. There is always a another side, always, but you
| just say "fiction".
|
| I really liked your comment:
|
| >This happens everywhere. I personally know someone in
| Russia who sent their kids to very sketchy pan-Slavic
| 'rodnover' far-right camps.
|
| I'm looking forward to you showing where in Russia children
| were taught to kill Russians and yell "Moskaliaku na
| giliaku" (hang up the Russians)
|
| It is not so much the presence of nationalists that is
| important (as you said "This happens everywhere"), but the
| attitude of the country towards them (Nazis Germany doesn't
| happen everywhere).
| JAlexoid wrote:
| > You can't say "fiction" to anything just because you
| don't like it.
|
| No. It's fiction, because it's not true and completely
| fabricated. I mean... for years I was told by Russian TV
| that I am persecuted and discriminated in Lithuania - I'm
| ethnically Russian from Lithuania. Which is complete BS.
| They told me that Lithuanians were Nazi collaborators and
| all resistance to Soviet occupation was just Nazis. Which
| is a blatant lie.
|
| So when I say that nothing that Russian propaganda says
| is true - I actually mean that _not a single word is to
| be een remotely trusted_.
|
| > I'm looking forward to you showing where in Russia
| children were taught to kill Russians and yell
| "Moskaliaku na giliaku" (hang up the Russians)
|
| In Lithuania we had a whole scandal, of a Russian school
| sending kids to a summer camp in Russia. Where they were
| trained to use guns and taught that Soviet Union was
| great and Lithuanians are Nazis.
|
| Also - Moskaliaku na giliaku - doesn't translate "hang",
| it's Send the Russian(singular) to the guillotine.
|
| >It is not so much the presence of nationalists that is
| important (as you said "This happens everywhere"), but
| the attitude of the country towards them (Nazis Germany
| doesn't happen everywhere).
|
| The attitude in Ukraine towards Nazism is bad. I mean...
| Nationalists didn't even get 2% in the last elections,
| not to mention complete lack of Nazis.
| kspacewalk2 wrote:
| >You can't say "fiction" to anything just because you
| don't like it. There is always a another side, always,
| but you just say "fiction".
|
| That is, of course, incorrect, but very telling. Willing
| victims of Russian propaganda use this line all the time.
| In fact, very often there is no other side, because facts
| exist.
|
| >I'm looking forward to you showing where in Russia
| children were taught to kill Russians and yell
| "Moskaliaku na giliaku" (hang up the Russians)
|
| You're (pretend-) surprised that a country suffering from
| an invasion teaches its children to hate and wish to harm
| the invaders? If you think that's bad, I got news for
| you, champ. It is now officially quite legal to put an
| invading moskalyaka onto that tree branch right now, or
| take them out in more modern ways. Ukrainians are allowed
| to fight against the occupying force using any means
| necessary, and they do. Not only is there nothing wrong
| with killing an invader who attacks your home and murders
| your neighbours, it is a noble and just thing to do.
|
| >It is not so much the presence of nationalists that is
| important (as you said "This happens everywhere"), but
| the attitude of the country towards them (Nazis Germany
| doesn't happen everywhere).
|
| Nazi Germany and Zigist Russia indeed doesn't happen
| everywhere, only in places where the ruling despot
| becomes a deluded fascist, drunk on his own power and
| trying to pass his own ignorant mis-understanding of
| history as reality.
| alexryndin wrote:
| If you are not surprised that "a country teaches its
| children to hate and wish to harm the invaders" years
| before the invasion then don't be surprised when the
| invasion actually happens.
|
| I can't imagine the level of your ignorance about how
| receptive children are and what monsters will ultimately
| grow as a result of such training.
|
| what about "Moskaliaku na giliaku", i'm sorry, but I'm
| very far from a clear understanding of this kind of
| statements, while you seem to demonstrate a high level of
| awareness.
| kspacewalk2 wrote:
| The invasion started in 2014, so not sure what you mean
| by 'years before the invasion'. And I'm not surprised in
| the slightest that the invasion actually happened. I have
| relatives in Russia and I understand how widespread
| fascism is there among the common people. Putin is quite
| moderate by comparison.
|
| >I can't imagine the level of your ignorance about how
| receptive children are and what monsters will ultimately
| grow as a result of such training.
|
| These children will grow up as people who understand that
| being willing to kill invaders and aggressors is a
| prerequisite for freedom.
|
| >what about "Moskaliaku na giliaku", i'm sorry, but I'm
| very far from a clear understanding of this kind of
| statements, while you seem to demonstrate a high level of
| awareness.
|
| It's an archaic phrase that simply means invaders from
| Russia ought to be strung up. No one really uses it these
| days, a much more relevant 21st century equivalent is
| "pali rusniu v tanchikakh". They're rather heavy and burn
| well, so why strain your back, you know?
| alexryndin wrote:
| Pomniu kak 24 fevralia ia byl v shoke ot togo, chto
| nachalas' bessmyslennaia i krovoprolitnaia
| spetsoperatsiia. Zachem? Dlia chego? Pomniu, kak
| podpisyvalsia pod prizyvami prekratit' vtorzhenie,
| vpisalsia vo vse petitsii, kotorye nashiol, khotel bylo
| na mitingi vykhodit', ne spal nochami i smotrel novosti.
| Potom vnutri nachalo vsio ustakanivat'sia, v kontse
| kontsov, ia ne pervyi god nabliudal za tem, chto
| proiskhodilo na Donbasse.
|
| Teper' zhe blagodaria takim, kak ty, ia otlichno
| ponimaiu, chto vsio sdelano pravil'no, i dal'she
| otkladyvat' bylo prosto nel'zia. S vami mir postroish', s
| mysliami o tom, kak vy budete moskalei veshat' i szhigat'
| v tankakh, aga. Sosedei, kak ty pishesh', na derev'iakh
| veshat', eto chto v golove nado imet'?
|
| Bylo, bylo uzhe takoe, velikaia germaniia, arii,
| ochistit' zemliu! Gnali do Berlina.
| kspacewalk2 wrote:
| Your supposed month-long personal journey from being
| anti-war toward being an enthusiastic supporter of
| Russian fascism and war crimes is about as believable
| (and as boring) as your demented fuhrer's history
| lessons.
|
| It shouldn't have to be spelled out, but of course the
| best way to ensure "neighbours" don't get burnt inside
| tanks or strung up on Ukrainian trees is for them to stay
| the fuck away from Ukrainian trees, and to keep their
| tanks well clear of Ukraine.
| acidioxide wrote:
| That's russian propaganda.
|
| -> Russian - speaking Ukrainians want to join RF
|
| -> Symmetry in action between Ukraine and Russia (we do bad
| things, but they do them too)
|
| -> Ukrainians are nazis
|
| These are all theses fabricated by Kremlin.
| themgt wrote:
| Having any more nuanced position regarding world affairs
| than "our guys: good. their guys: bad" is bad guy
| propaganda.
| CapricornNoble wrote:
| >>> Ukrainians are nazis
|
| >>These are all theses fabricated by Kremlin.
|
| https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-
| commentary-...
|
| https://thehill.com/policy/defense/380483-congress-bans-
| arms...
|
| https://geohistory.today/azov-movement-ukraine/
|
| http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/24/ukraine-
| azov... Here's a choice quote from this article: _"Ukraine
| should be for Ukrainians," Lemko said. "We don't need the
| European idea of multicultural extremism here. Ukraine must
| protect its cultural and ethnic integrity."_
|
| I'm sure Mr Lemko from Canada was actually a double agent
| planted by Putin... /sarc
| acidioxide wrote:
| I am fully aware of ukrainian nationalists. During II
| world war and after Ukrainian Insurgent Army has
| committed genocide on polish civilians killing 50 - 60
| thousand.
|
| But you need to distinguish. If refugees are knocking to
| my door I won't say: "You are Nazis". If Ukraine is
| defending against invasion, I will advocate for sending
| weapons. And so on.
| CapricornNoble wrote:
| >>>But you need to distinguish. If refugees are knocking
| to my door I won't say: "You are Nazis". If Ukraine is
| defending against invasion, I will advocate for sending
| weapons. And so on.
|
| Sure, but there is a big gulf between "Ukrainian Nazis
| are Kremlin misinformation" and "We recognize some of
| your people are morally questionable but still desire to
| arm/equip you in the justified defense of your homeland."
|
| We used to be much more honest with ourselves when we
| were getting in bed with useful bastards (Werner von
| Braun running our space program and Eric von Manstein
| "advising" the post-war Bundeswehr are two of my
| favorites). Messaging has devolved into a very simplistic
| good/bad binary model when reality is much more grey.
| lotusmars wrote:
| The funny and somewhat ironic thing is that neo-Nazis
| (like RNE or Barkashov's movement or Dugin) are thriving
| in Russia if they collaborate with Kremlin.
|
| They also enjoy widespread financial support by companies
| associated with Kremlin all over the world especially if
| they are viable candidates on European elections.
|
| This is the main reason to not take Putin's "Nazi" label
| seriously. If they support him they are "patriots". If
| they don't they are Nazi.
| CapricornNoble wrote:
| >>>This is the main reason to not take Putin's "Nazi"
| label seriously. If they support him they are "patriots".
| If they don't they are Nazi.
|
| Very true. The leader of Wagner, Russia's infamous
| private military contractor, has SS lightning bolts
| tatooed on his neck. If it weren't for innocent civilians
| dying, it would easily be a war where we shouldn't care
| which variety of asshole loses.
|
| https://www.respublica.lt/signs-of-neo-nazi-ideology-
| amongst...
| vladgur wrote:
| I dont think anyone is denying that there were fringe
| nationalist groups in Ukraine, just like nobody can deny
| that there are fringe nationalist groups in US(Remember
| "Jews wont replace us" chanting blokes in 2020) or fringe
| nationalist groups in Russia(See the video of Rogozin,
| who leads Russia's space agency, participating in Moscow'
| nationalist meeting:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUItOUKQ-zc ).
|
| A fringe group that has 0 political power does not make
| "Ukrainian are nazis" any more true than when its spewed
| by Russian propaganda machine
| CapricornNoble wrote:
| >>>A fringe group that has 0 political power does not
| make "Ukrainian are nazis" any more true
|
| Read Bellingcat's coverage of the problem from 2019:
| https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-
| europe/2019/11/11/ukr...
|
| Azov members have close access to major Ukrainian
| politicians, including Arsen Avakov, the (now-former)
| Interior Minister.
|
| https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/rise-of-azov/
| krzyk wrote:
| Azov is not what you think it is.
|
| It is like complaining that a general has access to any
| Ministry.
| vladgur wrote:
| I agree that inviting representatives of right-wing
| groups to a meeting with Zelensky on veterans affairs is
| a political mistake.
|
| That does not negate the fact that these right-wing
| organizations, including "Right Sector" had negligible
| popular support and won exactly 0 seats in Verhovna Rada.
|
| Again a very poor reason to invade a neighboring country
| JAlexoid wrote:
| None of these actually address the statements above.
|
| You're trying to derail this, by providing links that
| aren't in direct contradiction to the statements.
| green-eclipse wrote:
| This is an amazing twisting of facts and rewriting of
| history. Propaganda at its best.
| tonguez wrote:
| well that settles it then. thanks for clearing that up
| kspacewalk2 wrote:
| >This is an amazing twisting of facts and rewriting of
| history.
|
| That basically sums up Russia in 2022. Pure unadulterated
| fascism borne out of delusions of grandeur and rewriting of
| history, its own and that of its neighbours.
| dshpala wrote:
| Ah good old "but they lynch African Americans in USA"
| distraction. Russian TV loves it.
|
| BTW today is day 55 of the war in Ukraine. 55 days it's not
| about "sides of the story" it is about Russians bombing and
| killing Ukrainians. And then denying that.
|
| Stop the war. Then we can talk.
| xtian wrote:
| turbo_bean wrote:
| Good thing all these people were condemning Google when US was
| invading here, there and elsewhere.
| JAlexoid wrote:
| You maybe should check who owns Yandex, before you bring up
| this "whatabout"
| hnarn wrote:
| Please take your whataboutism elsewhere.
| Nerwesta wrote:
| Pointing hypocrisy in that particular case.
| risho wrote:
| idiots use the word whataboutism to deflect their
| hypocrisy. it's way easier to deflect someone's argument
| saying things like whataboutism, concern troll or whatever
| else than it is to address their legitimate argument.
| alm1 wrote:
| this is not whataboutism, it's actually guilty-by-
| associationism displayed on both sides. Should we blame
| children whose elderly parents support the war for taking
| care of their parents, instead of disowning them? Should we
| blame employees of Google for allowing employees of
| Lockheed Martin use Google maps during the Syria invasion?
| Should we blame employees of Yandex for paying taxes and
| working for a company which did not cease operations in
| Russia?
|
| Where do you draw the line of association?
| JAlexoid wrote:
| Yandex is owned by one of Putin's pocket oligarchs and
| all of the management has been replaced by staunch
| loyalists, long time ago.
|
| This isn't "guilt by association". Yandex is part of the
| Russian government structure.
|
| I'm sorry that you don't know that.
| acidioxide wrote:
| I wish the worst for Yandex. Paying taxes in Russia is enough
| for me.
|
| >The enemy is the Russian government and the rich oligarchy
| behind it, not Russian people that could be either lied and
| manipulated by ruthless politicians
|
| https://web.archive.org/web/20220404140751/https://ria.ru/20...
| You should read that article. That is the rhetoric used in
| mainstream russian media. It is all plain and simple and
| Russians are happy with it.
|
| [edit] Deepl translates it very well https://deepl.com
| purerandomness wrote:
| RIA Novosti is a state propaganda outlet.
|
| There is no "mainstream media" left in Russia after they
| closed Echo Moscow and TVRain (Doschd).
| JAlexoid wrote:
| RIA Novosti is mainstream.
|
| Mainstream doesn't mean a particular political affiliation
| or even objectivity. It just means the most widely referred
| to.
|
| Dozhd and Echo Moskvy were never "mainstream", quite the
| opposite.
| acidioxide wrote:
| By mainstream media I mean media that is popular - people
| are reading it. Thoughts described there are so extreme
| there must be acceptance for such rhetoric.
| jaquer_1 wrote:
| throw93232 wrote:
| Should we perhaps put similar disclaimer in front of every
| other link? There is some other big coubtry that starts new war
| every decade...
|
| And "Russian people that could be either lied and manipulated"
| is very condescending.
| JAlexoid wrote:
| They're all of the above plus brainwashed and with a very
| common revanchism sentiment.
|
| Basically it's not hard to sell Nazis in Ukraine and
| "brotherly nation, that needs our help" narrative in Russia.
| The foundations are there, you just have to tap into them.
|
| I literally was brought up on the idea that Ukraine is just
| the "border", not a real place. Kyiv is just another Russian
| city... and Ukrainians are just "polonized Russians". At 14 I
| was literally going to forums and argued against anyone
| claiming Ukrainian identity being separate.
|
| Thankfully I grew out of that imperialist crap.
| dotdi wrote:
| True, but on the other hand, people outside of Russia can
| decide for themselves how to react to and treat companies from
| unfriendly countries.
|
| You mention oligarchs - how can it be ruled out that Yandex is
| directly or indirectly, fully or partly owned, and even
| directed, by them?
| app4soft wrote:
| > _people outside of Russia can decide for themselves how to
| react to and treat companies from unfriendly countries._
|
| Since 2019 _Yandex_ and the _FSB_ ( _Federal Security Bureau_
| of Russia, ex-KGB) had reached an agreement where the company
| would provide the required data without handing over the
| encryption keys.[0]
|
| Learn more about Russian war crimes & ongoing invasion of
| Ukraine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russian_invasion_
| of_Ukrai...
|
| N.B. _I 'm Ukrainian living in Ukraine_. Here is my statement
| for HN:[1]
|
| + Verified Ways to Help Ukraine:
| https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/02/27/verified-ways-to-
| help...
|
| + My Patreon: https://patreon.com/app4soft [ Please, DONATE
| me just right now ]
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yandex#Security
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30395897
| cies wrote:
| How can I help specifically the people of the Donbas?
| Nerwesta wrote:
| Now ? I think it's too late, your question sounds
| bizarre, Russia is indeed helping them. But I guess there
| are quite a few pro-separatists NGOs out there. Not the
| ones aligned with Kiev though, so they are leaning pro-
| Russia.
| cies wrote:
| I also saw some news that Russia send them supplies. I
| feel they are the most oppressed people in this conflict.
| myth_drannon wrote:
| Well the CEO of Yandex resigned in protest and fled to
| Israel.
| lotusmars wrote:
| No support to the fact that she resigned in protest. Please
| don't spread this whitewashing of Yandex. Many Russian
| executives stepped down so not to be hit by sanctions. She
| was already scheduled to be replaced by Khudaverdyan and
| then invasion started.
| myth_drannon wrote:
| "On Sunday, an independent Russian media outlet called
| The Bell, which focuses on high-tech and startups, posted
| a screen capture of a message Bunina allegedly posted on
| an internal company forum. According to the post, whose
| veracity could not be verified, Bunina wrote: "I will not
| return: I cannot work in a country that is at war with
| its neighbors."" - from Haaretz
| samhw wrote:
| I have no dog in this hunt, but I just looked this up, and
| there's no indication he 'resigned in protest'. Their
| company news site says that he resigned after being
| sanctioned by the EU.[0] It appears heavily implied that he
| was forced to resign as a result of the sanctions - either
| directly (I'm not familiar with how EU sanctions work) or
| in that it made his position untenable.
|
| [0] https://yandex.com/company/press_center/press_releases/
| 2022/...
|
| _Edit: This report appears to bear out that the sanctions
| forced him to resign pretty-much-directly, as the company
| does business in Europe, and the sanctions prevent him from
| doing business in
| Europe:https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/yandex-
| deputy-ceo..._
| myth_drannon wrote:
| I was talking about the CEO Elena Bunina, not deputy CEO
| - https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/tech-news/yandex-
| ceo-rel...
| samhw wrote:
| Ah, fair enough, I'm sorry - for some reason only the
| deputy CEO's firing came up when I searched about the
| CEO, so I assumed that was what you had meant. My bad.
| Please disregard my comment!
| hedora wrote:
| The current situation sucks for Yandex, but we're in a war of
| economic attrition with Russia.
|
| Full stop.
| some_random wrote:
| It's been more than a month since the war started, it's become
| very clear that the war is popular in Russia and pretending
| that XYZ company could maybe be the sole exception isn't worth
| considering. Also, the comparison between the Russian
| government arresting people for holding up blank pieces of
| paper and the US government asking media to not broadcast
| coffins is laughable.
| [deleted]
| JasonFruit wrote:
| Any time you blame people for their government, you're
| implying that you are okay with the same treatment from
| others. Are you, if you're an American, down with being
| blamed for the war in Iraq over nonexistent WMDs, or the
| coups we have instigated around the world? (Substitute your
| country's wrongdoings as needed.) If so, keep doing what
| you're doing.
| a-b wrote:
| Americans doing plenty of real things to keep their
| government in check. There is no excuse.
| JAlexoid wrote:
| I mean... Not really.
|
| The military is widely unquestionably supported in US.
| Public is not even remotely trying to keep the covert and
| intelligence agencies in check... Remember how ATF sold
| AK47 to Mexican cartels?
|
| The issue is willful ignorance on behalf of many
| americans. To the point that most aren't even aware that
| US intelligence is spying on allied leaders(Merkel's
| phone was tapped by US)
| daemoens wrote:
| Can you list some?
| lotusmars wrote:
| Can you list some by Russians?
| pessimizer wrote:
| As an answer to the question of why Americans are better
| than Russians, saying that neither Russians nor Americans
| are equally bad at restraining their country's aggression
| isn't good.
|
| You could get closer to an answer by counting the
| corpses.
| lotusmars wrote:
| Ukraine, Chechnya, Syria. Add to that inhuman treatment
| of civilians, unhinged army, mass rapes as terror means,
| bombings, chemical attacks, kidnappings, tortures. Putin
| wins it easily and we in Russia know this well. And he
| just started.
| wiseowise wrote:
| Not having one dictator for 20 years, for starters?
| some_random wrote:
| It always comes back to whataboutism with you people,
| doesn't it? As if the previous actions of western countries
| justifies the top down strategy of ethnic cleansing, the
| deliberate targeting of civilian infrastructure, the
| torture, rape, and murder of civilians that Russian
| government is pursuing RIGHT NOW and has pursued in every
| conflict it's been involved in. This is a deliberate
| strategy that no western nation uses, there is no
| comparison to be drawn, and trying to pretend otherwise is
| defending the indefensible.
| lotusmars wrote:
| Western whataboutism is a really underexplored
| phenomenon.
|
| Why do they always do diminish struggle of people and
| nations outside of West?
|
| It's like they're always saying "nah everybody hurts,
| you're not going through anything special, let's talk
| about us instead".
| some_random wrote:
| Yeah I've never seen whataboutism about whataboutism, you
| truly are plumbing new depths of war crime denial.
| ttybird2 wrote:
| I do not see war crime denial in their post. More like
| war crime acknowledgement. I think that it is you who is
| undermining the struggles of people attacked by US
| interests.
| JasonFruit wrote:
| It's not whataboutism; it's "With what measure thou
| metest, it shall be measured unto thee again." It's the
| Golden Rule, a basic moral tenet.
| danenania wrote:
| Western countries don't do these things directly (with
| some notable exceptions like Abu Ghraib). But they will
| arm, fund, and support proxies knowing they will commit
| atrocities. Is Saudi Arabia's brutal US-funded war in
| Yemen any different morally from what Russia is doing in
| Ukraine? Is SA's government any less despotic than
| Russia's?
|
| For me personally, this has nothing to do with
| whataboutism. I just want my country's actions to reflect
| its stated principles. Partly because I don't want my
| taxes supporting oppression and genocide, and partly
| because I want us to be seen as credible by the rest of
| the world when we condemn abuses by Russia, China, or any
| other country.
| vagrantJin wrote:
| > with you people...
|
| Oh?
|
| Its just that we would like for those with very little
| knowledge of their own governments war crimes to pipe
| down a little with the...
|
| _targeting of civilian infrastructure, the torture,
| rape, and murder of civilians that Russian government is
| pursuing RIGHT NOW and has pursued..._ Narrative.
|
| It comes across as dishonest at best.
|
| Who do you mean by western nations? Which western nation
| has been at war in the last 50 years? I have a
| premonition that whatever "western nation" you are
| talking about is probably not part of the ICC because
| they do not want to be charged with war crimes...just a
| wild guess.
|
| So please save your feigned indignation.
| vimy wrote:
| We blamed the Germans for nazi Germany, didn't we?
| ridiculous_leke wrote:
| Not just blamed; they were also ruthlessly bombed. The
| impact was the opposite of what was expected: instead of
| revolting Germans were even more galvanized in supporting
| Hitler.
| JAlexoid wrote:
| Bombing civilians to foster opposition to the national
| government was out of arrogant ignorance.
|
| However - it did cripple German production capacity,
| because people go to factories.
|
| As far as blaming - we blamed a subset of people and put
| the responsibility of reparations on all German
| citizens(born and unborn). We made sure that they knew
| why the war happened and how horrible it was. We went so
| far, that only last month did Germany get over the
| pacification.
| caconym_ wrote:
| This seems extremely reductive at best, especially with
| the benefit of hindsight.
| JAlexoid wrote:
| Americans are - in fact - responsible for a lot.
|
| Like people fleeing the Northern Triangle are absolutely
| someone that US has a moral obligation to help.
|
| Arguably helping people in Cuba, Venezuela or Taiwan - is
| less of a moral imperative. Because those issues aren't
| American responsibility anymore.
| pessimizer wrote:
| The US is still attacking Cuba and Venezuela.
| buildbot wrote:
| Yes that is our burden as a democracy.
| mda wrote:
| The Russian government is overwhelmingly supported by Russian
| people. So apparently Russian people supporting the government
| is also enemy of this fantasyland that is called Russia. I lost
| all my hope for a sane Russia.
| Nerwesta wrote:
| >to be used to help the already poor Russian economy.
|
| I really would like a citation here.
| VWWHFSfQ wrote:
| You want a citation that the Russian economy is poor?
| Nerwesta wrote:
| Oh yes please, I mean if it was that obvious I guess you
| would tell me any metric to push your assessment.
| VWWHFSfQ wrote:
| Have at it
|
| https://duckduckgo.com/?q=is+the+Russian+economy+poor
| Nerwesta wrote:
| No I asked a metric or something substancial to back up
| this claim, here is another one since I can smell British
| humour here : https://duckduckgo.com/?q=is+the+earth+flat
| VWWHFSfQ wrote:
| I just gave you a full internet worth of sources that
| says the Russian economy is in the dumps. Find me one
| that says everything is A-OK. Preferably not from Kremlin
| News Bureau.
| Nerwesta wrote:
| You gave me a duckduckgo link, thinking I was your Old
| Uncle. Thanks Bob, I know how to search the web. That's
| problematic for you because there is still no metric you
| can provide to back up your claim, I don't know it should
| be trivial to find one no ?
|
| The burden of the proof is on yours, I've never ever
| stated the Russian economy was "A-OK". I'm equally
| surprised by your first comment, and the fact you pull
| this out of nowhere with that much of a confidence.
| VWWHFSfQ wrote:
| Yikes. Well, this is pointless.
| Nerwesta wrote:
| You know what, I'm so sad, you just came up with a wild
| claim and you can't prove it with simple words, I wasn't
| asking you for the moon.
| xtian wrote:
| How do you explain the Ruble rebounding to pre-war
| levels?
|
| Edit: Can't reply, but every country takes steps to
| manage its currency's value. That's the status quo.
| VWWHFSfQ wrote:
| The Rouble is being artificially propped up by the
| Russian Central Bank. This has been a news story for
| several weeks.
| Nerwesta wrote:
| I hope he just read the same news that stated the Russian
| economy was more than capable just like Germany. That it
| had a lot of industries, natural resources, and above all
| relatively autonomous and so on ... and per Bloomberg own
| report, a sanction Fortress. I just hope he didn't
| conveniently skip that.
| lotusmars wrote:
| It's actually okay. The sanctions are a joke overhyped by
| Joe Biden. USD to RUB exchange value is around 81 which
| is almost pre-war levels. Most banks still use SWIFT just
| fine. Russians sign up for Visa and MasterCard in
| Kazakhstan via remote interviews. Kazakhstan also
| provided backdoor for lots of imports. Retail prices are
| just a bit higher than before. Restaurants are fully
| booked in Moscow.
| mda wrote:
| Enjoy it while you can, these things hit much harder
| after a while. Nobody will trust Russia for at least 2
| generations, I hope you are ready for the wild ride.
| lotusmars wrote:
| We are not enjoying because lots of people in Russia want
| the downfall of Putin and his clique. The problem is West
| is too cowardly. They announced "crippling sanctions"
| that looked sweet on paper but barely made a dent in the
| economy and are full of loopholes.
| VWWHFSfQ wrote:
| No offense at all, and I know the expectations in Russia
| were already super low to begin with, but saying the
| sanctions are a joke because Russia can route it's
| imports through a 3rd world neighbor does not exactly
| scream everything is "actually OK". The situation is
| extremely bad.
| lotusmars wrote:
| It's a notch worse but it has very little noticeable
| effect on ordinary Russians' lives.
|
| Even middle class people safely return from abroad
| (Istanbul, Dubai, Yerevan) where they expected to stay
| while economy crashed but it didn't.
|
| Groceries cost pretty much the same, restaurants work,
| people don't get fired, you can even fly on a vacation to
| Turkey.
|
| This is very sad because it seems that nobody will learn
| a lesson and Russians will watch war they allowed to
| happen like a thrilling TV show where they are the good
| guys.
| kgeist wrote:
| I've met a member of the YDB team at a conference in Moscow, a
| nice polite guy. I doubt they have any say in the company on
| the compliance of the company with the Russian law (let alone
| on Putin's antics), they are engineers, not lawyers or
| political activists.
|
| In my experience, there's a higher percentage of, say, Navalny
| supporters among Russian programmers than among the general
| population. Russia's most popular engineering blog, Habr (kind
| of like Reddit for engineers), is generally distrusting of the
| government, comments that openly support the government are
| usually downvoted. One of the trending topics there is
| relocation outside of Russia. Hate against Russian programmers,
| in my opinion, is completely misdirected. The project is open
| source, using it does not sponsor Putin's war machine. I think
| collaboration is a better strategy in the long term as opposed
| to isolation and bullying which can turn the last sane Russians
| away from the West, playing into Putin's hands. We should judge
| people by their actions, not by their association with a
| particular ethnic group.
| peapod91 wrote:
| Are there any notable differences or benchmarks between YDB vs
| CockroachDB, Spanner, or Yugabyte?
| manishsharan wrote:
| Is it ethical to recommend Clickhouse? I had done a PoC a long
| while ago before the war but I am not sure it is ethical to
| recommend this to enterprises given its origins?
| zX41ZdbW wrote:
| ClickHouse has no longer any ties to Russia.
| tylerhannan wrote:
| Questions of ethics are interesting...
|
| As a disclaimer, I work at ClickHouse looking after DevRel. I
| can't speak for what you find appropriate for your needs. But,
| I believe our perspective is clear. If you didn't see it:
|
| https://clickhouse.com/blog/we-stand-with-ukraine/
| manishsharan wrote:
| Thanks. This is really good to know. Enterprise stake holders
| are a jumpy lot and this will help.
| zepearl wrote:
| Thanks - I was wondering about Clickhouse and I feel better
| after having read your post :)
| polskibus wrote:
| I would love to see it undergo a Jepsen treatment and a teardown
| by Andy Pavlo.
| konart wrote:
| They do mention Andy Pavlo in this publication by the way:
| https://habr.com/ru/company/yandex/blog/660271/ saying that YDB
| was inspired by his and Michael Stonebraker's NewSQL ideas.
| KronisLV wrote:
| Currently seems to support a number of languages:
| https://ydb.tech/en/docs/reference/ydb-sdk/install
| - Python - Go - .NET - Java - PHP
|
| Has some example code here:
| https://ydb.tech/en/docs/getting_started/sdk
| lizardactivist wrote:
| Very impressive project!
| eatonphil wrote:
| It _looks_ [0] like they use PostgreSQL 's parser library under
| the hood which is cool.
|
| [0] https://github.com/ydb-
| platform/ydb/tree/main/ydb/library/yq...
| rbranson wrote:
| What's the core ordering mechanism behind the serializability for
| arbitrary distributed transactions? This would be something like
| TrueTime in Spanner or FoundationDB's GRV/commit proxies.
| jeffbee wrote:
| Seems to stake out some unclaimed territory in between bigtable
| and vitess, which is cool because I dislike the design of vitess
| and you can't download bigtable. Very interested to try this.
| sirjaz wrote:
| I don't see any plans for support of Windows Server. Do you know
| of any plans for it? Since it still has about 75% of the on-prem
| server market
| fomichev3000 wrote:
| Thanks for pointing this out. I think it's possible, most of
| the code is cross platform, we used to build YDB on Windows, so
| it should not be a problem. I suppose we need to improve a
| layer that works with storage devices to make it effective, for
| now it should be very naive implementation.
| agnesv wrote:
| How is it compared to ClickHouse?
| gaploid wrote:
| ClickHouse is OLAP (analytics), this one is OLTP
| (transactional)
| julienmarie wrote:
| Hence the focus on multi-AZ. This makes completely sense for
| transactional.
| gaploid wrote:
| I believe that something like AZure CosmosDB, AWS
| Aurora/DynamoDB but open-sourced, which is great.
| samber wrote:
| or cockroachdb and spanner ?
| fomichev3000 wrote:
| Yes, YDB plays in this category.
| fomichev3000 wrote:
| YDB can work in a single AZ and such setups exist. Most of
| our users want to handle AZ downtime, so it's a major case.
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