[HN Gopher] The case for LineageOS and the PinePhone
___________________________________________________________________
The case for LineageOS and the PinePhone
Author : jleightcap
Score : 100 points
Date : 2022-04-18 20:27 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (jleightcap.srht.site)
(TXT) w3m dump (jleightcap.srht.site)
| naoqj wrote:
| Nah, my iPhone is okay. The day it stops working or getting
| updated I will throw it away and buy another.
| noahtallen wrote:
| Or just trade it in -- you can still do that directly with
| apple back to the 6s (which is 7 years old now). Used market
| for iPhones is pretty good too; apple products retain resale
| value better than others.
|
| Ultimately, given the above, I don't think ewaste is a big
| problem with iPhones. Apple either refurbishes and sells it in
| a market that still values older phones, or recycles it.
|
| I _also_ support right to repair and any legislative efforts to
| force apple and others to stop deliberately making phones hard
| to repair. But given the trade-in value and used markets, I'm
| not sure why anyone would toss it in the trash or keep it in a
| drawer!
| makapuf wrote:
| If it stops working or being updated, I'm not sure the value
| of said nonfunctioning device will be great. It could be with
| an open os if its functionality suits you.
| scns wrote:
| Apple will start selling self repair kits , in collaboration
| with ifixit IIRC.
| HidyBush wrote:
| The funny thing is that PinePhone's problems almost entirely fall
| on the software side. I think we can all agree that for basic
| smartphone usage the base PinePhone is plenty overkill. How much
| processing power do you need to send messages? Take and look at
| moderate resolution photos? Render an OpenStreetMap tile?
|
| If somehow web browsers didn't exist the only downsides left for
| the Pinephone would maybe be regarding high performance video
| recording, some ML features and 3D games.
| zwieback wrote:
| I like the idea of a more open phone a lot but dispute the
| "Smartphones are shit" premise. I think modern smart phones are
| an unbelievably awesome value. Battery, display, wireless and
| processing power have advanced at such an unbelievable rate that
| we have something in our pockets that far exceeds predictions of
| 20, 30, 100 years ago. The problem is that we don't want to pay
| what it really costs to have such a great system so we sell our
| souls and then endlessly gripe about it.
|
| Pinephone et al appeal to nerds and are a good reference case
| about those tradeoffs but I'm doubtful they'll tip the scale.
| atoav wrote:
| I have a fairphone and had mostly Samsung Galaxy devices
| before.
|
| I was blown away when a phone that I _bought_ didn 't actually
| contain all kinds of bloatware. That this is not just forbidden
| is beyond me.
| usrn wrote:
| As someone who had a few pre-smartphone PDAs: Smartphones
| absolutely are high powered shit. On paper they're amazing but
| the ecosystem limits you to scrolling instagram and only a
| handfull of accepted IMs (iOS struggles with XMPP and IRC for
| example, something even my hacked DS could do fine with 4MB of
| ram and a 60Mhz ARM9.)
|
| Just editing fucking textfiles and copying it back to a normal
| PC (that isn't a mac) is a real bitch. _Especially_ if you don
| 't have an internet connection. It's almost as bad as a ti84+
| honestly, just a nicer screen, a couple cameras, and the
| ability to send IM and email. In fact the TI84 could do things
| iOS can't, I had compilers on mine.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| > Just editing fucking textfiles and copying it back to a
| normal PC (that isn't a mac) is a real bitch. Especially if
| you don't have an internet connection. It's almost as bad as
| a ti84+ honestly.
|
| If you're on Android, I suggest looking at F-Droid; there
| exist decent text editors and file managers, and failing all
| else Termux manages to drag a decent amount of sanity in.
| usrn wrote:
| I had an Android. Every update made Termux less and less
| capable (IIRC exec is very complex or impossible in a
| recent one.) Now I have a Pinephone running a normal X11 DE
| and I don't have to tolerate an ounce of stupidity. Sure
| there are legitimate good faith defects in the software but
| nothing is _intentionally_ broken just for the sake of it.
|
| ssh just works (the phone shipped with it preinstalled)
|
| vim just works
|
| scp just works
|
| All my X11 apps just work
|
| All the scripts and little tools I've built up over the
| years just work (no fighting with namespaces when you
| switch to root or other weird Android nonsense.)
|
| All my dev tools just work (and you might say "well why
| would I ever want that on a phone? Because when you find a
| bug in the OS or an app and you're sitting on transit you
| can fix it _right then and there._ No making mental notes,
| no filling out issues, just slow continuous improvement.
| Something these mobile OSes will never have.)
|
| Desktop Firefox just works (even without touchscreen mode
| it's usable. With xinput2 enabled it has nice gesture
| support.)
|
| Want something to run in the background? Just open an Xterm
| window, run it, and minimize it. Want it to start on boot?
| Add it to the default runlevel or your X session just like
| you would on any other computer.
|
| There's absolutely no reason for _any_ of the mobile
| nonsense (there arguably never was) other than money for
| the mobile OS vendors.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| > I think modern smart phones are an unbelievably awesome
| value. Battery, display, wireless and processing power have
| advanced at such an unbelievable rate that we have something in
| our pockets that far exceeds predictions of 20, 30, 100 years
| ago.
|
| From my quotes file: "It's amazing what we can build, it's
| baffling what we have built." (jrumbut,
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25168187) Yes, the
| hardware is amazing, and the software is sometimes amazing in
| what it can do, but... If you have gobs of bandwidth (courtesy
| of modern WiFi and LTE) and loads of RAM and storage and CPUs
| that _scream_ (seriously, for a while my phone had more cores
| than most of my laptops at a close clock speed) and a high-
| quality touch-sensitive screen and a solid OS that makes it
| easy to use the system even on that tiny screen, but you use it
| to let apps bloat like there 's no tomorrow (Facebook comes to
| mind), show ads even more efficiently, spy on the user at will,
| and deliberately make things worse so people will pay more (ex.
| YouTube), what have you really gained?
| gentleman11 wrote:
| Yet my battery life mysteriously cut to 1/4th its old value
| (half a day, down from 2 days) after a recent Apple update.
| That is pretty "shit" if you ask me. It's like a malware attack
| that is trying to extort $1200 out of me
| antisthenes wrote:
| > I think modern smart phones are an unbelievably awesome
| value.
|
| Smartphones are mostly toys, dark pattern traps for
| procrastination. They are not productive tools, because you're
| always going to be a fraction as productive as you are on a
| full-size screen and keyboard. The only exception is maybe
| photography, since the sensors are finally catching up to
| entry-level DSLRs (optics still aren't, and probably never
| will)
|
| Even most laptop users I know make use of several external
| monitors and a keyboard and a dock for other accessories.
|
| > The problem is that we don't want to pay
|
| Not sure what you mean. Are you suggesting that end-consumers
| should be willing to pay developers to not work at corporations
| and instead focus on creating some kind of open-source dark-
| pattern free paradise ecosystem for smartphones and other
| portables?
| cromka wrote:
| > we don't want to pay what it really costs to have such a
| great system so we sell our souls and then endlessly gripe
| about it.
|
| Last time I checked, Apple does not subsidize their hardware
| and actually earns majority their money off of the hardware
| markup, not the services.
| mathgeek wrote:
| Plenty of carriers subsidize Apple hardware. Apple also has
| https://www.apple.com/shop/iphone/iphone-upgrade-program
| pwthornton wrote:
| You are paying for it one way or the other. Either through
| a direct hardware purchase or a higher monthly fee.
| nicce wrote:
| Still, while this might be true, you are decribing only 28%
| of the world, and the opposite situation might be on control
| elsewhere. Not to mention gaming devices such as PS, Nintendo
| or Xbox, while it is a bit different thing.
|
| https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/worldwide
| 1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote:
| It is unclear whether the "Smartphones are shit" premise
| applies to the hardware or the software, or both. I think
| "smartphone" hardware is generally impressive. However
| regarding the situation with software I think there is ample
| reason to be unsatisified. Of course the owner not having full
| control over the software can (and does) negate benefits of the
| hardware to the owner, so I can see why someone might proclaim
| "Smartphones are shit." It is generally great to own a small,
| powerful computer, but if the owner only has partial control
| over it, and unwillingly/unknowingly cedes substantial control
| to others, it may be less great, maybe even troublesome
| considering we see the so-called "smartphone" is being heavily
| utilised by parties other than the owner as a means of
| surveillance.
| throw7 wrote:
| The pixel 2 was the first smart phone I was completely happy
| with. In fact, it's still my main phone right now. And I'm
| someone who had a neo freerunner so I get what the OP is saying,
| but at the end of day I need something that "Just Works".
|
| The main current problems are 1. support life 2. repairability 3.
| non-competitive/closed software platform.
|
| I feel like Google had a chance at some point to "open" phone
| hardware similar to the IBM PC situation... but I suppose,
| realistically, the telecoms and qualcomm held those cards too
| close to the vest. oh well.
| hprotagonist wrote:
| > Don't smartphones... kind of suck? How many times have you had
| to replace a phone in the past 10 years?
|
| No? Twice, and both were upgrades for new features, not required
| replacement due to parts failure or loss of software support.
| slater wrote:
| Looks like the server got hugged.
|
| Web archive link:
|
| https://web.archive.org/web/20220418204119/https://jleightca...
| xanaxagoras wrote:
| Gemini version still un-hugged:
| gemini://jleightcap.srht.site/blog/openphone.gmi
| fancyfredbot wrote:
| There are repairable and upgradeable phones (Google search for
| fairphone). If people really cared about this stuff companies
| like fairphone would be dominating the market now. But people
| don't buy those phones because they don't agree that "smartphones
| are shit". They would rather have cheaper less upgradeable less
| repairable phones. Not sure that's a problem which Pinephone are
| solving?
| gentleman11 wrote:
| I used lineage for a couple of years. In practice, you need to
| install a google play middleware to get certain apps you need,
| Eg, the password manager or authenticator you need for work.
| After installing these, I wonder if the lack of sandboxing means
| my phone is basically owned. Facebook famously spied on / hacked
| jailbroken years ago for example.
|
| Does lineage in that case really provide better privacy? Honestly
| curious. I use an iPhone these days out of uncertainty
| asciimov wrote:
| The only solution to the e-waste problem is legislation.
|
| First we need to pass laws that force repair ability on these
| devices. Like being able to replace a battery easily, think
| slipping the back cover off easy. Force the unification of a
| charging standard. Finally we need to nickle and dime these
| companies for not making the devices more reusable.
| elzbardico wrote:
| Good luck expecting a capitalistic government to do that.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| This is the sort of thing I would have been all over and wasted
| weeks on when I was younger.
|
| Now, sorry, I just don't care anymore. I don't live my life
| through my phone so I buy cheap Android phones for a few hundred
| dollars tops, and when they die they die. If it can make and
| receive calls, texts, and run Google Maps navigation that is 90%
| of what I need.
| scarface74 wrote:
| So a 2015 iPhone 6S runs the latest version of iOS.
|
| A 2013 iPhone 5s is still getting security updates.
|
| A 2011 iPhone 4s doesn't support LTE and soon won't be able to
| connect to any network. Verizon is shutting down their CDMA
| network as is Sprint.
|
| So how does open source make my life better?
|
| From a hardware side, why wouldn't I just take my phone to any
| number of places to get the battery replaced?
| benlivengood wrote:
| Why is your cellular modem wedded inseparably to your pocket
| computing device? I think that's the bigger picture.
| scarface74 wrote:
| Speaking of "bigger picture" how much larger is the phone
| going to be without the integration?
|
| Even Google had to prematurely abandon support for one of its
| phones because it couldn't get driver support for a cell
| phone chip.
|
| On that same note, cellular standards are a minefield of
| patents to the point that even when Apple starts producing
| its own cellular chips, it will still owe Qualcomm patent
| fees.
| squarefoot wrote:
| Good question.
|
| Some years ago I was thinking of a way to separate the
| functions we insist in cramming into phones, making them in
| the process nearly unusable for anything but consuming media
| content and advertising.
|
| The idea was to have a small battery powered 3g (now 5G)
| modem whose task was to route Internet connectivity to a
| local PAN (low power WiFi, BT, etc) while allowing other PAN
| devices talk each other. Other PAN devices would be: a very
| small phone piece with minimal display and navigation keys to
| receive calls and make ones picking contacts from the list; a
| pocket keyboard to enter data; a small camera to take
| pictures and movies; a tablet like device screen with touch,
| a more capable OS and physical buttons for apps and games; a
| belt-like holder with housings for all PAN devices. All PAN
| devices would have their own battery along with contacts
| exposed for recharging, so that their battery would be
| recharged by a bigger one contained in the belt as soon as
| they're snapped into their place in the belt; also all
| devices would store their data in a central small NAS-like
| device, also contained in the belt. The communication
| protocol would allow for example to talk with someone using
| the phone piece, then grab the camera, take a photo and have
| it sent automatically to the person on the other side,
| including geographic coordinates. ...etc.
|
| I spent some good hours wondering about this contraption,
| then realized that, although very open to expansion, it would
| also be extremely unpractical for most users, and eventually
| let the idea die.
| asojfdowgh wrote:
| my pc is older than all of those numbers and runs fine, and I
| expect roughly the same from the pinephone
|
| for my pc if I wanna use a sim card after old network shutdown,
| all it is is swapping a single card on the mobo, perhaps
| swapping out some antennas too
|
| for the pinephone, just swapping the baseboard without the rest
| changing, or make/group hire someone to make a case with an
| updated modem
|
| for battery, because you get a free battery to keep around for
| emergencies when you buy a new one.
|
| I guess if you want to pay to fix your problems, fine, but not
| everyone has the luxury to do that!
| scarface74 wrote:
| And the modern cellphone industry is a lot younger.
|
| Sure I can still use a Core 2 Duo 2.66Ghz laptop with 8GB
| RAM, a nice 1920x1200 display, 250Gb hard drive, and gigabit
| Ethernet from 2011 [1] in 2022. But could I use a computer
| from 2001 in 2011?
|
| There is a reason that you can use a iPhone 6s from 2015 in
| 2022. But an iPhone 3G from 2008 would have been unusable in
| 2015.
|
| [1]https://www.ebay.com/itm/224241464162
|
| This is similar. Mine was much higher specced. It was given
| to me after a startup I worked for went out of business in
| 2012. I used it to run Windows CE emulators while writing C#
| Compact Franework applications.
| hrbf wrote:
| Just like the Linux desktop, alternative smartphones will forever
| remain a tiny niche market for highly technical people.
| Mainstream adoption can and will never happen given the current
| state of hardware design and manufacturing.
| elzbardico wrote:
| And highly technical people with time to spare in an expensive
| hobby.
| fartcannon wrote:
| Please elaborate on how the current state of hardware design
| and manufacturing ensures that mainstream adoption will can and
| will never happen.
| atonalfreerider wrote:
| OP might be confusing hardware design and manufacturing with
| software availability.
|
| I have wanted to switch from Windows to Linux so many times,
| and I would love to ditch my Google phone for PinePhone. But
| for me, this _always_ gets back to the problem of well-
| maintained software on Linux vs corporate systems. The last
| time I tried switching to Linux a few months ago, all of the
| programs I use on a regular basis had some impossibly
| complicated setup or program-crashing bugs (that I reported)
| that made me give up after a few days trying to migrate.
|
| Don't get me wrong, the OS (Ubuntu) installed just fine and I
| was able to browse the internet (which should be sufficient
| for most people). But anything beyond turning the phone on
| and having everything self-setup is asking _way_ too much
| from a mainstream user. Therefore, this argument is always an
| economic one - not a conceptual one. You need a greedy
| corporation that is incentivized to make a friction-free
| experience for the end user. Too many well-meaning, but way
| too smart for their own good developers think everyone else
| thinks like them.
|
| https://xkcd.com/456/
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rlg4K16ujFw
| hrbf wrote:
| > You need a greedy corporation that is incentivized to make
| a friction-free experience for the end user. Too many well-
| meaning, but way too smart for their own good developers
| think everyone else thinks like them.
|
| That goes for software as well as hardware. Plus, hardware
| needs a certain quality and price point, both of which are in
| short supply. Everyone who's tried designing and shipping a
| quality hardware product at a reasonable price in a
| reasonable time frame has experienced that. Even if you
| magically could solve one of the issues, you'd never be able
| to ship the sheer volume to satisfy demand. And that's all
| before even attempting to create a smooth and complete
| software experience, not to speak of software quality and
| security issues.
| zaik wrote:
| If I get the usability of today's Linux desktops I'm completely
| fine with that. I don't care if my setup is widespread or not
| if it works for me.
| LargoLasskhyfv wrote:
| Why bother with LineageOS on the PinePhone, when there is a new
| edition of Maemo-Leste?
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31069729
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| Lineage is OK, but I'd rather not run Java on a mobile.
|
| The Nokia N9 is the only phone I've ever wanted and M$ killed it.
| ashirviskas wrote:
| I did not see PostmarketOS mentioned (https://postmarketos.org/),
| which tries to solve the OS problem that Android (and LineageOS)
| does not really solve.
| hilbert42 wrote:
| _" Don't smartphones... kind of suck?"_
|
| Yes, they absolutely do.
|
| _" How many times have you had to replace a phone in the past 10
| years? Do you have a drawer of random crap with a growing pile of
| phones,<...>"_
|
| Answer: 'many' in both instances.
|
| Where possible, I root my phones and install LineageOS or other
| similar 'open' O/S. In instances where there's no LineageOS
| available or where LineageOS doesn't provide a full
| implementation of the phone's original software (in that some
| essential feature that I require is either missing or doesn't
| work properly under LineageOS) then I still root the original
| OEM's O/S and then deGgoogle it the best I can--that is, nuke all
| of Google's apps as well as all of the OEM's junkware apps then
| install GApps as well as various alternatives to Google's
| software, etc. including a firewall to stop certain apps getting
| access to ads.
|
| I always install two essential apps, F-Droid (store) and Aurora
| Store which spoofs access to Google's Playstore.
|
| _Note: Be very careful in how you logon to Google 's sites (that
| is if you still use them, Gmail for instance (luckily, I don't).
| Failure to take great care will mean that you'll be deemed by
| Google of having violated its terms of service and your account
| will be revoked or suspended!!_
|
| Most of you who will be reading this already know all these
| details, so the most significant thing I have to say is that I
| _NO_ longer advocate to my friends that they ought to root their
| phones. I even include my many technical friends who could easily
| root their phones if they wanted to do so in this rule--because
| it 's just not worth the risk of aliening them when things stuff
| up (as they often do) when phones are rooted.
|
| Diehards like me have either no problems or they're problems I
| can easily live with. The trouble, however, is that the Google
| ecosystem is so addictive and all embracing that even many savvy
| techies find that they cannot live without certain features, or
| alternatively, they're so engrossed in using their apps that they
| haven't the time to even look for alternatives let alone take
| sufficient effort to evaluate them properly.
|
| In my opinion, it's this utterly strong grip that Google has on
| its users that's the key issue--and major problem! Whilst rooting
| and LineageOS are great for the likes of you and me, they're not
| suitable for most people (as terrible as that me be). Period!
|
| I'm of the strong opinion the only way around this dilemma is for
| some big Maverick manufacturer to manufacture a high performance,
| super-easy-to-use 'Fairphone'-like 'clone' that has even better
| performance than the current crop of non-Google alternatives--and
| it should also be even easier to use than current phones. Only
| when there's sufficient momentum from sales will we see other
| manufactures take up the challenge and only then will we'll get
| effective competition.
|
| At present however, I'd not even give my wish a snowball's
| chance!
|
| Moreover, frankly, I'm concerned that the current lot of
| manufactures that make Google alternatives is just too small to
| make any appreciable difference. That said, I wish them well--and
| few people I'd reckon would be happier than me if my assessment
| turned out to be totally wrong.
| Kerrick wrote:
| > Don't smartphones... kind of suck? How many times have you had
| to replace a phone in the past 10 years? Do you have a drawer of
| random crap with a growing pile of phones?
|
| I simply cannot relate with this hook.
|
| > Don't smartphones... kind of suck?
|
| No, smartphones are kinda magical. They take better snapshots
| than my first DSLR, they play games at higher fidelity than my
| first gaming PC, and they're general purpose computing devices
| with better battery life, connectivity, and portability than my
| first laptop.
|
| > How many times have you had to replace a phone in the past 10
| years?
|
| Twice. My first smartphone was the Nexus 4 way back in 2012. I
| moved on to iPhone with iPhone 6s, and then upgraded to iPhone 12
| Mini last year because I was enraptured by the faster
| performance, better camera, and small size.
|
| > Do you have a drawer of random crap with a growing pile of
| phones?
|
| I definitely have a random crap drawer, but it contains no
| phones. My Nexus 4 went on to become a dev testing device until
| it was resold for parts. My iPhone 6s still sits in my drone bag
| so I can use it to control the drone while shooting other video
| on my 12 Mini.
|
| ---
|
| I dunno, I just can't relate to the problems presented. Maybe
| it's because I have only gotten top-of-the-line devices from
| companies who promised software longevity. Maybe it's because I
| didn't feel financially well off enough to jump on the upgrade
| cycle (until recently) and made do with older/slower devices for
| longer than most people. But the world of smartphones, from my
| perspective, kicks ass.
| robbyking wrote:
| > How many times have you had to replace a phone in the past 10
| years? Twice.
|
| Me too! And I'm a mobile engineer! My partner only recently
| updated their iPhone 6s, and I upgrade when the need arises,
| not when there's something new and shinny on the market.
| chasil wrote:
| Running Lineage on AT&T has drastically reduced the number of
| compatible phones due to the hard requirement for VoLTE
| (voice over LTE) on a small set of authorized phones.
|
| I had just upgraded my OnePlus 3 to a 5 when this was
| announced, so I purchased a Pixel 3a XL by the deadline
| (which fortunately has VoLTE in AOSP).
|
| I moved my phone to Verizon for a few reasons, but Lineage
| struggles with VoLTE and this is a big reason for old phones
| in a drawer.
| usrn wrote:
| >they play games at higher fidelity
|
| What games? Mobile games (outside just a few exceptions that
| prove the rule) are absolute dogshit that make the Debian repos
| look like Steam. None of them really need the hardware anyway.
| There are probably plenty of "slot" games on ticalc.org (though
| by ratio there are far more games actually worth playing I'm
| sure.)
| throwaway71271 wrote:
| > general purpose computing devices
|
| not so general, you can pretty much only run programs allowed
| by the mothership, and if some neural net decides you can be
| locked out of your phone forever
| arbitrage wrote:
| You are purposely taking the well known and understood term
| "general purpose computing device" out of context and using
| it as a polemical statement to push an agenda.
| mort96 wrote:
| Nah. It's not outrageous to say that a criteria for being a
| "general purpose computing device" is that I should be able
| to run whatever code I want on it.
|
| I say this as someone who's an iPhone user, and I'm
| perfectly happy with my iPhone. But I wouldn't call it a
| general purpose computing device honestly. The Android
| phone I used many years ago, for all its flaws, would have
| fit that description much better IMO.
| feanaro wrote:
| > It's not outrageous to say that a criteria for being a
| "general purpose computing device" is that I should be
| able to run whatever code I want on it.
|
| In fact, it is outrageous _not_ to say so.
| throwaway71271 wrote:
| "general purpose" for me means I can set the program
| counter somewhere and run my code
|
| in general the term vaguely means 'this computer can
| perform many different tasks' but can an iphone perform a
| task you want, but apple did not allow?
| davidcbc wrote:
| Yes, you can run your own code on an iPhone.
|
| You can't run arbitrary binaries, but you can run
| whatever code you want.
| jrm4 wrote:
| You _completely_ lost me at "they're general purpose computing
| devices."
|
| This is not even remotely a reasonable definition of today's
| smartphones.
| elzbardico wrote:
| The same here. Bought a 12 Pro Max last year, expect to still
| be using it by 2024/25
| mikece wrote:
| Why LineageOS and not GrapheneOS? I have a Pixel 4a with
| GrapheneOS and really like it. The lack of Firebase Cloud
| Messaging (Google's push notifications service) isn't an issue
| for personal usage; for work I still use an iPhone because I
| don't want to put things like MS Teams on Graphene OS.
|
| As for PinePhone: it's interesting that this article puts
| LineageOS and PinePhone together since the latter cannot run the
| former. Speaking for myself, it would be nice if I could buy a
| phone from someone other than Google to install and use a de-
| Googled form of Android.
| seanw444 wrote:
| I wish GrapheneOS was available on OnePlus.
| SubzeroCarnage wrote:
| Take a look at my DivestOS project, I support OnePlus 1-7
| devices.
| nabaraz wrote:
| The choice is between GrapheneOS + Sandboxed Google play vs
| LineageOS + MicroG.
|
| If you care too much about privacy, GrapheneOS is the way to
| go. If you want a balance between privacy and usability,
| LineageOS is the way to go. Also, GrapheneOS only supports
| Pixel phones.
|
| I have tried CalyxOS but there are too many issues.
| 0rdinant wrote:
| Sanboxed Play Services nets more app compatibility than
| LineageOS+MicroG, I don't understand your usability argument.
| mikece wrote:
| By "sandboxed Google Play" do you mean using the Aurora app?
|
| Coming from iPhone, something I keep forgetting is the full
| support for PWA apps on Graphene OS. I wish there were PWA
| versions of apps like Signal, Wire, ProtonMail, and more; so
| much cleaner to update the app through a deliberate refresh
| than going through a middle-man service like F-Droid.
| tortasaur wrote:
| They support actual Google Play Services in a sandbox:
| https://grapheneos.org/faq#google-services
| dtx1 wrote:
| > If you care too much about privacy, GrapheneOS is the way
| to go
|
| Not so sure about that. If you care about SECURITY than
| GrapheneOS is pretty much the best choice on the market,
| comparable only to iOS or bare Android on Pixel Phones.
| Everyone else isn't even reasonable to compare against it.
|
| But wether it's more private with sandboxed Google Play
| Services vs Lineage OS and MicroG or iOS is not such an
| obvious choice to me.
| emteycz wrote:
| If you want privacy, don't install anything Google or
| microG. Surprisingly many apps from Play store (via Aurora
| or sideloaded) still work (not all features though) - but
| if you want privacy, don't even use Play store via Aurora.
| foresto wrote:
| > Why LineageOS and not GrapheneOS?
|
| One problem with GrapheneOS is that it only supports a tiny
| handful of devices, and only for few years (at best) per
| device. A lot of people can't afford to keep buying Pixel
| phones on that schedule, and some who can afford it find the
| e-waste unappealing.
|
| This isn't exactly the project's fault. It's more a side effect
| of an industry that prevents customers from securely installing
| an OS on their own hardware, and/or refuses to provide firmware
| security updates beyond a rather short time frame.
|
| I hope that changes. I love what GrapheneOS attempts to do, but
| at the moment, I think using it is unreasonably hard on the
| budget and the environment.
| azalemeth wrote:
| The thing that annoys me about GrapheneOS is that it is not
| possible to install a sudo binary or to root the phone. I get
| that this is a Good Thing from a security perspective, but I
| don't like the fact that I can't install AdAway for resource-
| less adblocking with an edited hosts file, the ability to SSH
| into my phone with a certificate, or the ability to make good
| "nandroid" backups. I also philosophically like the fact that
| I'm in control, ultimately, of my device and if I want to send
| an app fake data, I can do so. The GrapheneOS developers have
| quite sternly said that they won't ever develop a rootable
| version of the OS, and that makes me sad.
| SubzeroCarnage wrote:
| You can always compile it with any such changes baked in.
| nimbius wrote:
| tell ya what i really wanna see from pinephone: AGPS lockdown.
|
| Currently ive learned from HN there are numerous 3GPP protocols
| that provide direct, clandestine monitoring of the GPS location
| of the phone. the feature lives unchallenged in the firmware, so
| if you can give me a phone that _cannot_ report its GPS data to
| the carrier without my knowledge, id be ever grateful.
| tinus_hn wrote:
| I don't think the 911 rules allow such a phone to be sold in
| the US.
| mikece wrote:
| Does the carrier sell this information? There are many/most
| apps that I don't allow to get location data and that's
| because, in my judgement, they don't need it and I don't trust
| them not to sell it: I can opt out.
|
| But if the carriers are actively gathering my location
| information and are selling it without giving me a way to opt
| out then perhaps I need to think about my phone as something I
| turn off most of the time.
|
| Which reminds me: can you still get pager service?
| [deleted]
| heavyset_go wrote:
| Carriers sell location data, yes.
| Ardon wrote:
| Cell carriers would generally be tracking you via cell tower
| triangulation, which can't be rebuffed with software, but
| that's why the PinePhone has a switch to physically power off
| the modem (and thus antenna) which does prevent that
| tracking.
| asojfdowgh wrote:
| IIRC you can flash the modem for pinephones, so it would be
| possible to achieve what you want in the future
| SubzeroCarnage wrote:
| My DivestOS: - removes most Qualcomm location
| blobs - removes carrier OMA-DM blobs - doesn't send
| IMEI to SUPL server - only allows SUPL override when an
| emergency call is active - disables A-GPS MSA mode
| - and shows a notification when location is requested via SUPL
| xanaxagoras wrote:
| This looks really cool. If sunfish changes from "Broken" I'll
| give it a try.
| opencl wrote:
| You can install your own firmware on the Pinephone modem.
|
| https://github.com/Biktorgj/pinephone_modem_sdk
| phh wrote:
| I don't understand what is it you call "AGPS lockdown"
|
| 3GPP is usually used in the context of AGPS to help GPS get a
| lock, by using the ID of the tower your 3GPP UE is connected
| to. There is one such tower, and there is simply no way to hide
| it. It is a technical requirement for your carrier to have an
| approximate location of your equipment. Even if they wished
| they didn't have it, they would still need it.
|
| A phone doesn't have its GPS turned on permanently, because it
| eats a lot of battery, and sure some carriers and some OEMs
| have some backdoors (Sprint last I've seen) to request a GPS
| position, though AFAIK it can't be enabled in most cases. Is
| this what you're talking about? As far as I know, taking a
| "stupid" modem (Say an exynos one), and putting a custom ROM
| should make you safe from it, because from what I've seen,
| those backdoors are done in Samsung Android framework
|
| If your question is about E911 (which is lockdown to... well...
| 911 calls), can't say that I know much about it, but I think
| what I said on the previous point still applies. On a dumb
| modem
|
| BTW, PinePhone's modem being a Qualcomm, it is very "smart",
| and does a lot of things behind Application Processor's back. A
| Mediatek, or better an Exynos modem is much better to that
| regard, and would be preferable. (but there is no pinephone on
| non-qc modem)
| nemothekid wrote:
| > _give me a phone that cannot report its GPS data to the
| carrier without my knowledge_
|
| Does this work by reporting GPS data? I thought this data was
| acquired with cellular triangulation.
| kjellsbells wrote:
| that feels like a legal hurdle not a technical one. The carrier
| is obliged by the regulator (eg US FCC) to be able to locate
| the phone to within a few meters of accuracy without relying on
| user action in order to meet their commitments around emergency
| service.
|
| The problem here isnt the collection of data, its the abuse of
| that data whether its sale to data brokers or over enthusiastic
| law enforcement using GPS pings on flimsy pretexts to sweep
| people up.
| josephcsible wrote:
| I'd totally use a more open-source phone OS, if only there
| weren't communications and banking apps that check to make sure
| you're running an unmodified major manufacturer's OS, and refuse
| to run if they find any evidence that you aren't.
| solenoidalslide wrote:
| Which major banking and communications companies refuse to let
| you access their services via browser?
|
| This is when we absolutely need to name and shame.
| josephcsible wrote:
| Snapchat refuses to let you access their services _at all_
| via browser. And most banks offer you a restricted set of
| functionality via browser, e.g., no taking pictures of checks
| to deposit (in fact, I can 't think of any banks that _do_
| let you do that via browser).
| solenoidalslide wrote:
| What a wonderfully ripe area for disruption.
| criddell wrote:
| You're going to disrupt Snap by writing a more free
| version of it?
| fartcannon wrote:
| You have to do the open source phone first, and help
| convince others, before the banks and snapchats will
| support you, not the other way around. It's normally a
| small sacrifice, but the payoff is fundamental to a free
| future.
| josephcsible wrote:
| You make it sound like the banks and Snapchat would have
| to do work for them to support me, when the opposite is
| true. The community already has compatibility layers that
| work for most apps, but those companies go out of their
| way to do extra work to make sure their apps _don 't_
| work in them.
| fartcannon wrote:
| Yeah they're shitty. That's why maybe you shouldn't
| financially support ecosystems that you don't like just
| to use apps that are actively hostile to you. You don't
| need those things.
| josephcsible wrote:
| The problem with not using Snapchat is the network
| effect: you miss out on socialization when you're the
| only one in your friend group that isn't on it.
|
| The problem with not using those banks is that I don't
| think there's any banks that aren't hostile like that,
| and keeping all of your money under a mattress is a worse
| choice than compromising on this principle.
| fartcannon wrote:
| This is HN so I'll be slaughtered for this reply, but
| someone definitely tried to fix the banks issue a little
| over a decade ago.
|
| But yeah, fair enough! I choose to just not chat to those
| people, but I totally get that it's not that easy for
| some.
| imchillyb wrote:
| hundchenkatze wrote:
| Snapchat is in control of all the things you listed.
| You're agreeing with the person you're insulting.
| josephcsible wrote:
| How is having no web-app or web-client (and banning you
| if you use any third-party client) meaningfully different
| from refusing to let you access anything in the browser?
| arbitrage wrote:
| It's different in that it allows a contrarian farkwad (or
| someone with O.D.D.) to disagree with anyone they wish.
| scns wrote:
| Snapchat works on google free /e/ OS.
| josephcsible wrote:
| Snapchat makes you pass SafetyNet to be able to log in,
| and passing SafetyNet requires a signed response from
| Google's servers. Are you sure it isn't only working with
| a workaround like signing in on a stock Android device,
| and then copying the authentication information over?
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| After the nth round of european regulations, plenty of banks
| started requiring a smartphone app installed on Android or
| iOS as 2 factor authentication
| josephcsible wrote:
| What regulation requires Android or iOS in particular?
| Findecanor wrote:
| There is rather a _lack_ of regulations that would
| require banks to provide two-factor authentication in a
| platform-neutral or technology-neutral manner.
|
| Instead of two-factor-only apps, we get "electronic ID"
| that are legally like a photo ID, and which are also used
| for making payments from the phone itself.
|
| In fact, some of these rely on security of the OS it is
| running on, and not on the use of any trusted platform
| modules ("secure enclave", TrustZone, etc.) or on any
| mathematical proof. Therefore, un-rooted recent versions
| of Android and iOS is compulsory in practice, because
| those are the only environments that are secure enough.
|
| And BTW, the electronic ID are very convenient for the
| banks. If they get social-engineered and the banks' API
| abused, the banks can conveniently blame the victims --
| because it's a legal _ID_ and not merely a login helper
| or debit card, and you 're not supposed to be "careless"
| with an _ID_.
| fancyfredbot wrote:
| Wrong question. It's the market which requires this, not
| the regulation.
| ForHackernews wrote:
| You could try /e/OS? https://e.foundation/leaving-apple-
| improved-compatibility-wi...
|
| > But while you can install many apps on /e/OS, we know that
| some apps are not working properly today: banking apps or games
| for example, and this has been painful for many of you.
|
| > Our team has been hard at work to improve app compatibility
| in the last few months, and we will be rolling out improved app
| compatibility with the 0.23 release end of March. This means
| that apps like Pokemon Go, Ma banque (Credit Agricole) and many
| others will work now fine on /e/OS.
| josephcsible wrote:
| Thanks; I'll definitely have to give that a try. And I'm
| quite curious what workaround they came up with.
| andrew_ wrote:
| The (my) case against PinePhone is the case: it's not waterproof.
| gentleman11 wrote:
| No phones were until recently and it was fine
| nicoburns wrote:
| I dream of the day Apple open up their iPhones to alternative
| OS's. It'll probably never happen, but they've shown with their
| Apple Silicon macs that it's possible to do without compromising
| the security of the device. And given the progress on Asahi Linux
| and how closely related the A series and M series processors,
| half the drivers would be already written.
| ForHackernews wrote:
| Obligatory shoutout for /e/OS - https://e.foundation/
|
| It's a more integrated, user-friendly LineageOS fork that uses
| microG to replace Google services.
| howmayiannoyyou wrote:
| On a very related topic I received my Purism phone recently.
| Worked great... once. Now it's bricked after recharging. I
| haven't had time to reach out for support and certainly need to
| do that, but after waiting a very long time for the phone I'm too
| demoralized to make this a priority. Perhaps I should've bought
| the Pinephone, or installed Lineage on my old pixel... but time
| is a scarce commodity.
| chunk_waffle wrote:
| Its sad how utterly terrible the Pusrim phones are, can they
| even make a _phone calls_ reliably?
| fsflover wrote:
| Yes, it can: https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-
| wiki/-/wikis/Freque....
| fsflover wrote:
| Ask for help on the Purism forum. The community there is really
| helpful: https://forums.puri.sm.
| dleslie wrote:
| If the PinePhone had a halfway decent camera I would still use it
| as a daily driver; but because I had to pocket a separate camera
| for the few months that I did use it, the device now collects
| dust in a drawer.
| fsflover wrote:
| Perhaps you may be interested in Librem 5 then.
| mariusor wrote:
| I wish Sailfish OS had a mention. If someone tries to escape the
| Android/iOS duopoly, it's probably the most mature linux based
| distribution out there.
|
| It's not fully open source that's true, but it can be daily
| driven on a number of modern(ish) compatible hardware. The most
| prominent of them being some of Sony's Xperia's line(official)
| and a slew of other older devices through the efforts of a
| community of enthusiasts.
| spaniard89277 wrote:
| They claim to be compatible with android apps in their site,
| how true is that?
|
| For me, the problem with phones is the sense that you're just
| one step away of having no more OS updates, or updates making
| it slower, or basically getting locked-in in some way.
|
| Phones feel very different to computers.
| saidinesh5 wrote:
| They have an Android compatibility layer, which lets you run
| a lot of Android apps and adds various integrations with
| sailfish os: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6Amrr766crc
|
| The integration with Android apps, when it works, is fairly
| seamless.
|
| It is kind of like using wine to run windows applications on
| Linux. Sometimes things may not work, but otherwise it's
| fine.
| mariusor wrote:
| They support android apps from a custom repository and from
| f-droid. I think most of them work in the limit of being
| compatible with the android version that Alien Dalvik on the
| device supports (the latest models like Sony Xperia 10 II
| support version 10). However most of them suffer from not
| having access to Google services, but then again, that's
| something a person that wants to de-google would expect I
| think.
| ryukafalz wrote:
| From a US perspective, the lack of group messaging makes it a
| non-starter for me, unfortunately. My friends and family just
| expect me to be able to receive group messages. It's not
| optional these days for a lot of people.
|
| I used to use it and enjoyed doing so, but I'd hoped Jolla
| would open source more of it as they said early on that they
| were considering.
| ThatMedicIsASpy wrote:
| I'm waiting to retire my windows phone. The stopwatch has been
| running for 2580 days already. But that happens when the Xperia
| 10 III will get sailfish support
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