[HN Gopher] Ask HN: MacBooks seems to be the only viable option ...
___________________________________________________________________
Ask HN: MacBooks seems to be the only viable option these days
I've used ThinkPads all the way from the IBM days and those good
old solid Dell computers too. Recently, I decided it was time for
an update. I use Linux on the often so it was important for me to
purchase a laptop that was compatible. I bought 2 laptops, all of
which I had to return in the last 2 months. 1. Dell XPS: I spent
over 20+ hours with their support going back and forth. I also had
a tech come to my house to replace my motherboard before I gave up
and demanded a return 2. Lenovo Carbon X1: The laptop came with a
faulty keyboard so I just returned it because I didn't want to wait
30 days for a mail-in repair or drive 2 hours to go to a "local"
repair shop. They also made me order the laptop 3 times because
their system kept cancelling it for whatever reason so it took an
insane amount of time to just purchase the laptop (I spent ~6 hours
to just purchase the laptop) Maybe I'm just unlucky but the time I
spent and energy I spent to just purchase these laptops shows you
why people buy from Apple instead. I strongly dislike MacOS because
they force the "apple way" of doing things. But it seems to be the
only option these days to buy a computer with ease and get a
computer "that just works". My Macbook was more expensive but the
time I saved outweighs the price imo.
Author : open1414
Score : 91 points
Date : 2022-04-18 18:52 UTC (4 hours ago)
| joecot wrote:
| I run a Dell XPS Developer Edition with Ubuntu preinstalled. I
| have had 0 problems with it. The only additional thing I did was
| disable the touchscreen because I never used it, but it did work.
|
| I think you're likely going to encounter some faulty equipment
| from any vendor. I have enough family who swear by macbooks to
| know that the grass isn't much greener from their side and their
| hardware breaks too. I would be hesitant to switch ecosystems
| over 2 bad experiences.
| nine_k wrote:
| I have had enough faulty Macbook Pros back in 2015-17 to say
| that, probably, no company is immune.
|
| I'm typing this from an old Thinkpad T470, which is still pretty
| adequate for development work, with an M.2 SSD and 32 GB RAM,
| running Linux. I don't feel constrained.
| xet7 wrote:
| Apple is not any better.
|
| At 10th of this month I bought MacBook M1 that has 16 GB RAM and
| 512 GB disk. I did dual boot macOS Monterey and Asahi Linux. I
| could not find a way to turn off boot sound, selecting that menu
| option at macOS did not work. When I was away from keyboard,
| macOS did go to sleep mode, even when I tried make it not to at
| power settings. Asahi Linux did keep running, so my HexChat IRC
| etc did not stop when away from computer. Linux is still best
| work OS. I did like MacBook M1 is silent.
|
| At 14th of this month I had to return MacBook M1 to warranty
| repair, because it does not boot anymore. It does charge to full,
| but does not boot.
|
| Good luck finding working laptop.
| peepop6 wrote:
| Same story here. I was a ThinkPad user and bought my first Mac
| when the M1 was released. It just felt dumb to get anything else
| even when compared on paper.
|
| I'm happy with my purchase but I'm still not a fan of Apple and
| their philosophy in any way. If there was a real competitor to
| the M1, I would switch in a heartbeat.
| zgiber wrote:
| I had bad luck with the top spec 13" DELL XPS (2021) - Fan was
| loud, and audio jack randomly failed to detect headphones. Webcam
| was mediocre, audio quality was really really poor. It was ok for
| a machine that was only used for coding, but wasn't great for
| remote work / conferencing. Replaced with the M1 equipped 13"
| macbook which was about PS400 cheaper (although also lower spec)
| and I'm very happy since. Despite the lower spec it does almost
| everything much faster. The only nuisance I had was a few
| Terraform providers not being released for ARM, and the
| occasional Docker woes with a few obscure images. The Macbook's
| overall quality and versatility beats the XPS by a good margin
| for my purposes.
| cosmos64 wrote:
| frame.work
| uniqueuid wrote:
| I may be an outlier, but for me, the problem with non-mac
| machines is that they seem just careless.
|
| Steve jobs famously said "The only problem with Microsoft is they
| just have no taste.", and this seems true to me for almost all
| hardware manufacturers, and to a larger degree still for
| software.
|
| Why does nobody care about creaking plastic? About sticky-feeling
| texture? About uneven weight distribution? About the sound that
| materials make when handling them? About flickering in software?
| About inconsistent spacing? About janky color combinations?
|
| There has been amazing workmanship for thousands of years. The
| Minoan culture made golden jewellery out of sub-milimeter
| spheres. Why should we now tolerate the insult that consumer
| computers are?
| everyone wrote:
| Jewellery is a great analogy imo. Apple is a jewellery company
| imo. They sell expensive, shiny, conspicuous consumption items
| without practical use.
|
| I was shocked when I found out that macs are popular among
| people who actually work with computers and even make software.
| It will never cease to shock me. The only explanation I can
| think of is that this is a USA social class thing. In the USA
| the upper classes have Apple stuff and the lower classes have
| something else. Most people in software come from an upper or
| upper-middle background so they grow up in an Apple house.
| Those who don't get Apple anyway to blend in.
| Delk wrote:
| The combination of Unix, a polished user interface and a
| system that Just Works(TM) appeals to a lot of tech people.
| That combination at least used to be a kind of a holy grail.
| pschastain wrote:
| My last MBP only lasted 10 years of almost daily use so yeah,
| no practical use at all...
| jaffe21 wrote:
| >> I was shocked when I found out that macs are popular among
| people who actually work with computers and even make
| software. It will never cease to shock me.
|
| Yeah, wtf. It's not like people that build software for a
| living know anything about computers right?!
| Terretta wrote:
| > _The only explanation I can think of..._
|
| Craftspeople appreciate good tools. Good tools don't make you
| better at craft, but bad tools can definitely make you worse.
|
| There's also the thing where at the start of a model cycle
| from Apple, you generally cannot purchase an equipment with
| _all_ those performance capabilities combined _at any price_
| from anyone else. This is true of phones and laptops alike.
|
| In other words, at major new model cycles, the full
| combination of practical function and durable form is often
| not available anywhere else at any price.
|
| When your livelihood depends on your machine, you do well to
| invest in good tools. And "invest" is the right word, because
| these hold value.
|
| By the end of a model cycle, other vendors may catch up or
| pass the price perf curve, yet the Apple models are built in
| a way that holds value for double or quadruple the lifespan
| of a Windows laptop purchased around the same launch window.
| This means when you buy fresh and resell two years in, you
| can spend less for the top of the line functionality than
| when you stay in the shovel-wear class of machine. (You can
| even sometimes buy direct refurb and sell a year later for as
| much as you paid.)
|
| > _It will never cease to shock me._
|
| How to say you're not open minded without saying you're not
| open minded? :-)
| wly_cdgr wrote:
| A great number of people care a great deal about creaking
| plastic and the other design atrocities you mentioned. Why do
| you think Apple is one of a handful of the most valuable brands
| in the world, while Dell laptops gather dust in Staples
| basements? "Developer experience"? Lol
|
| It's the aesthetically stunted and clueless nerds on HN who
| don't know the name of their hairstyle and aren't aware of the
| length or color of their shorts who are the outliers, not you
| can16358p wrote:
| Even though I generally agree with your point about the
| topic, calling people "autistic nerds" isn't cool.
| dbevv wrote:
| I dislike using touchpads very much. I go to great lengths to
| control everything with the keyboard, and fall back to a
| traditional mouse when I have to (I tried trackballs but I
| couldn't adapt). Whenever I'm forced to use a touchpad because
| I'm on the go or I don't have room to bring a mouse with me, I
| groan.
|
| That said, the implementation of the touchpad in a Macbook vs a
| regular touchpad in even a high end laptop is night and day.
| The software and hardware work together to make sure the touch
| surface is centered, and your fingers glide through it, there
| are no accidental presses, and esentially never misinput. The
| haptic feedback is so good that you can't really tell that
| you're not pressing a button. In comparison, the touchpad in
| what I consider the best Windows laptop, the Lenovo X1 Carbon,
| is a steaming pile of shit, and fails every measure.
|
| I don't know how much of it is Apple's attention to detail
| versus their ability to do vertical integration -- Lenovo
| likely has very little control over how Synaptics implements
| their drivers -- but I would pay a hefty premium for an
| experience like a Macbook.
| sedatk wrote:
| > Why does nobody care about creaking plastic? About sticky-
| feeling texture? About uneven weight distribution? About the
| sound that materials make when handling them? About flickering
| in software? About inconsistent spacing? About janky color
| combinations?
|
| I think Microsoft's Surface lineup has been making good strides
| on that front, but they still have a long way to go.
| thrill wrote:
| I was in love with my Surface, even after they took a month
| to repair it for warranty, but come on, having it die the day
| after the warranty expired, with no consideration for a
| replacement, has made that a one-and-done consideration. I
| sure did like fanless computing though.
|
| As a lifelong non-Mac guy (mostly unix, and then linux, since
| the days AT&T were sharing their code around college
| campuses), I'm about to go to the dark side and embrace the
| fruit simply because I think the whole deal will be better.
| Terretta wrote:
| > _Surface lineup has been making good strides_
|
| Making laptops and tablets was anecdotally a business MSFT
| didn't particularly want to be in but the OEM options for
| business workplace were that embarrassing the bar had to be
| raised by someone.
| massysett wrote:
| Add "my Windows has ads for crapware even though I paid full
| price for it and bought direct from Microsoft" to the list.
| bostonsre wrote:
| > Why does nobody care about creaking plastic? About sticky-
| feeling texture? About uneven weight distribution? About the
| sound that materials make when handling them? About flickering
| in software? About inconsistent spacing? About janky color
| combinations?
|
| To me, these details are less desirable, but the operating
| system and the way in which I utilize the computer to work and
| get shit done matters more. The niceness of the design (and
| don't get me wrong, they are super nice and beautiful) seems
| like superficial details to me. It isn't jewelry to me, it is a
| tool that I use to work.
| kemiller2002 wrote:
| The Laguiole flatware is beautiful. It is a true mark of
| craftsmanship, and it is priced as such. As much as I
| appreciate their elegance, I don't need a $100 spoon to eat my
| cornflakes in the morning.
|
| We tolerate less poor design, because spending time on money on
| something which in the end is not truly worth the time or money
| is focusing on something unimportant to most
| people....especially at a job they most likely hate.
| uniqueuid wrote:
| That's the thing.
|
| We spend a huge amount of time using computers. Considering
| not just the share of time but also the share of concentrated
| attention, they are an even more important object in our
| lives.
|
| Why would you not desire the tool you use to be the absolute
| best you can have? And if eating cornflakes is important to
| you, the Laguioles may be worth it. After all, they will
| probably last ten years or twenty. Compared to many
| completely irrelevant, even burdensome objects we own, that's
| not that much.
|
| Bruce Sterling once held a talk about minimalism and objects
| which stuck with me, long before Marie Condo commoditized the
| trend. He basically said: Spend a lot of money on things that
| you eat or put on your skin, on your bed, on your tools and
| beautiful objects. Get rid of the rest.
|
| At the core, what I cherish about Apple objects is that they
| don't steal my attention and efforts for some inferior, fake
| promise. Looking at them and using them is the same, there is
| hardly any broken promise. It's that integrity which counts.
| ProAm wrote:
| TBF Apple sold very expensive laptops with shoddy faulty
| keyboards for YEARS. People idolize and idealize Apple but
| tend to ignore the faults and failures. I truly believe
| Apple does not respect their customers. They have some good
| product and some bad ones too.
| brimble wrote:
| Apple stacked like 3 fuck-ups at once (going no-USB-C to
| only-USB-C in a single jump; the Touch Bar; the bad
| keyboards) but when I went looking for alternatives it
| seemed like I'd be cutting off my nose to spite my face
| (that is, they were all still a lot worse in other ways,
| as they were back when I first started using a MacBook).
| I decided to just hold off a bit on new hardware rather
| than switching, and hope Apple came to their senses.
| After a little while, they mostly did.
|
| Apple's far from perfect--the competition just doesn't
| seem interested in actually competing.
| C4K3 wrote:
| I have one of those macbook keyboards (2018 macbook pro)
| and it is easily the worst keyboard I have ever used. I
| do not understand how a keyboard like that could possibly
| have made it onto a $3000 laptop.
|
| Which is funny because the touchpad is by far the best
| touchpad I've ever used, it's the first touchpad I'd ever
| used that made me think a touchpad could compete with a
| mouse. It even made me start donating to the linux
| touchpad improvement project that got posted on HN [1].
|
| My thinkpad is the exact opposite. Decent keyboard for a
| laptop but terrible touchpad.
|
| [1] https://www.gitclear.com/blog/linux_touchpad_update_d
| ecember...
| rusk wrote:
| I think it was Ive who prioritised aesthetics over
| usability, an approach that I feel is inherently
| disrespectful to the paying users. The MacBooks have
| returned to form since he left. A post recommending Mac
| over Lenovo would have been untenable a year ago.
|
| Though perhaps I'm being overly harsh on Ive ... have
| they sorted out spellcheck yet? The way they've conducted
| that the last while is I think some of the most
| disrespectful product management ive (should be I've)
| seen since Cadbury replaced quality chocolate with a
| drumming gorilla.
| alphabettsy wrote:
| I think the keyboard issue was overblown given what we
| saw at work with those machines. That said, the one
| person on my team with a failed keyboard was able to get
| it fixed very easily.
|
| One thing that makes me tend to prefer Apple is the
| stores and support. I recall support for HP and VAIO
| computers being extremely painful. PC manufacturers have
| so many models they don't even have parts available for a
| computer that was being sold last year. That was my
| experience with a Samsung laptop.
| [deleted]
| digisign wrote:
| Most people want cheap hardware and software. That's about the
| whole story right there.
| jdrc wrote:
| Because, if apple is an indication, it takes an enormous amount
| of investment to make a limited line of products that have
| those details ironed out. Just like most products, computers
| are also messy.
| kmeisthax wrote:
| Because every other computer manufacturer realized they can
| save on the BOM cost by shoving the whole computer under
| plastic gingerbread. That weight distribution? It'd cost way
| too much to redesign the product correctly. Flickering redraws?
| We don't make the OS, we just sell Microsoft's.
|
| Occasionally you _do_ see PC OEMs that try for taste in the
| Windows ecosystem. Sony did that with their VAIO laptops, with
| the somewhat-inflated price tag to match. In fact, it impressed
| Jobs so much he literally just offered them an OSX license
| (which they didn 't bite on).
| totalZero wrote:
| Vaio laptop build quality is on the plasticky end of the
| spectrum. They're pretty but build quality leaves much to be
| desired. I've never viewed their pricing as particularly
| inflated. Have owned a few.
| uniqueuid wrote:
| All true, but why is the _culture_ and _aesthetic_ of
| computers inherently trashy?
|
| Look at all the fields where superior quality is a completely
| natural criterion (whether it exists may be another
| question): Watches, cars, pens, paper notebooks, furniture,
| fashion, jewellery, architecture, bikes, coffee machines ...
|
| What's more - if you look at the visual representations of
| computers - i.e. marketing material, art, illustrations, unix
| porn etc - all that highly values aesthetics and beauty. But
| the actual products are a disgrace to all of that!
| mesozoic wrote:
| As long as they're made to be disposable there's an upper
| limit. No one would buy a macbook for 50k knowing they'll
| be able to use it their whole life then resell it likely
| for a profit but they would a Rolex.
| dclowd9901 wrote:
| Computer design aesthetics are a relatively new concept and
| not one that's deeply explored or appreciated, and
| certainly not at the level of other physical designs (cars,
| watches, clothing, so on).
|
| I think many of us here really appreciate the beauty of
| Cray Mainframes and Apple hardware, but computers are so
| associated with work and utilitarianism, I think they've
| often been overlooked for their value as design pieces. I
| mean, brutalist architecture is a thing, so it's probably
| just a matter of time.
| lr wrote:
| I think you just answered the question: All of the
| categories you note have both high-end and, sadly, mostly
| low-end options. What is surprising is that, in the world
| of computing, there is very little at the high end (Apple
| -- from going by this original thread), and almost all of
| it is at the low end. I guess some company could make an
| amazing PC that ran Windows, but the, you'd have an amazing
| piece of hardware that... ran Windows.
| 2muchcoffeeman wrote:
| I think you also answered your own question.
|
| We buy computers by comparing sets of numbers. Your GHz
| and Mb are bigger than my GHz and Mb? And the $ are
| lower?
|
| But luxury items are some times about the feel. And if
| you have a nice computer running Windows. Well, the
| primary way in which we interact with the machine is
| budget so why bother with the rest of it?
| setr wrote:
| > We buy computers by comparing sets of numbers. Your GHz
| and Mb are bigger than my GHz and Mb? And the $ are
| lower?
|
| Anytime "normies" ask me to help them buy a laptop, this
| is not at all what they ask. The only thing they want to
| know is "is it fine for my needs?" and the only thing I
| really need to do is check "min GHz, min Mb", and find
| the cheapest option in the bucket with a decent support
| contract and then pick the cheapest option.
|
| And in my circle, the cheapest option is not really
| anyone's concern (they budget 1k, 2k, and are fairly
| agnostic within like +-$300); in near any other subject,
| it'd be preceded by look & feel, but they all look and
| feel the same (inoffensive, at best), so cost is all
| you've got.
|
| No "normie" I know has high expectations of computers,
| both by their own failure but mostly by failure of the
| machine itself, and its largely because computers do not
| have high expectations of themselves.
| nine_k wrote:
| But you only need Windows to run the real paragon of
| Microsoft software development, Excel.
| fartcannon wrote:
| Trashy is paying extra for needless aesthetics. Function
| over fashion forever, in my earnest opinion.
| jrm4 wrote:
| I mean, it's not unreasonable for a painter to not really
| give s** what her brushes look like, as long as they work?
| chaostheory wrote:
| > All true, but why is the culture and aesthetic of
| computers inherently trashy?
|
| Because it needs to be affordable to the masses as a whole,
| and not just the upper middle class and up.
| uniqueuid wrote:
| I find it very sad to think that masses cannot have
| style.
|
| Some old Swiss everyday products are affordable yet
| beautiful; I am convinced both is possible.
| chaostheory wrote:
| Apple and companies in general need to make a profit.
|
| Those same "old Swiss everyday products" are most likely
| no longer affordable based on the modern cost of labor
| and materials.
| uniqueuid wrote:
| The price of, say, a basic victorinox Swiss Army knife or
| a simple Caran d'ache ball pen is still around one hourly
| wage in Western Europe and perhaps 2 to 5 in Eastern
| Europe.
| chaostheory wrote:
| Are they made with the same quality of materials as
| older, more reliable versions? I would guess no. It's
| also a poor comparison because both are low tech
| products.
| jonny_eh wrote:
| > In fact, it impressed Jobs so much he literally just
| offered them an OSX license (which they didn't bite on).
|
| I just googled this and it's based on an unsubstantiated
| boast by Sony's president in 2014, I'd be skeptical:
|
| https://www.appleworld.today/2021/01/06/from-the-vault-
| did-s...
|
| Although this article seems to think it holds water:
|
| https://9to5mac.com/2014/02/05/sony-turned-down-offer-
| from-s...
| gumby wrote:
| I have no idea if the story is true but FWIW in the 80s and
| 90s Steve Jobs used to speak admiringly about Sony quite a
| bit.
|
| Not sure if that survived his return to Apple.
| [deleted]
| zitterbewegung wrote:
| Apple's taste and the ways they do things makes you love / hate
| your experience and your judgement of whether you should buy
| their product. The company is position as "we know what's best
| for you" and you can see this along their product line. General
| PC makers have a carefree attitude where here is what you want
| and they will give you the specs and it works however you want.
| Which means sometimes you will have to deal with managing your
| own experience.
|
| The design inconsistencies though are twofold. If we look at
| phones Samsung makes their own processor that they try to use
| with their phones and they are also not fabless but that
| processor continually either underperforms Apple's products. On
| the other hand the Apple tax is quite real. Also, Samsung's
| aesthetic at least at their phones is quite real although they
| might just abandon their standard flagships to foldable phones
| because the yearly update cycle for phones is stopping soon.
|
| Also, many manufacturers seem to just blindly copy Apple up to
| even their marketing (which I don't think many would disagree
| that Apple does the best out of any of their competitors).
| civilized wrote:
| > General PC makers have a carefree attitude where here is
| what you want and they will give you the specs and it works
| however you want. Which means sometimes you will have to deal
| with managing your own experience.
|
| You can't get whatever you want though. You can't get a
| machine with remotely the look and feel of a MBP. You have
| lots and lots of mediocre choices and no really good ones.
| zitterbewegung wrote:
| By whatever you want I meant is whatever you choose (like a
| cellular modem and touchscreen laptop) but I agree with you
| the look and feel is driven by Apple because they want to
| preserve margins by having a sense of taste that allows
| them to still have the Apple tax.
| sascha_sl wrote:
| Yes.
|
| I own a very expensive 2021 gaming laptop / mobile workstation-
| ish laptop from Lenovo. A ton of people who have it have had
| issues with the touchpad getting unresponsive. I could fix for
| the most part by using a 300W brick over a 240W (don't ask me
| how, that must be a very interesting power delivery system, or
| maybe the battery controller is interrupt storming, what do I
| know).
|
| Lenovo's response has been to say they're aware of the issue,
| and otherwise ignore it / replace entire top shells only for
| the problem to return 2 weeks later.
|
| I also have a T495, a machine that absolutely should never have
| been released with the C-States it has. While AMD has issued a
| patch for them, Lenovo has not bothered to provide a BIOS
| revision that fixes it. Support for these products is
| essentially minimal to dead upon release.
|
| It feels like every OEM has become MediaTek.
| goosedragons wrote:
| You can buy metal PCs. There's loads of them. Microsoft
| themselves even make them. Pretty sure every big OEM has at
| least one laptop with a solid metal chassis at this point.
|
| I prefer the plastic of my Thinkpad, it doesn't feel creaky,
| there's no "sticky-feeling texture". It doesn't boil on my lap
| the way metal MacBooks and PowerBooks have. It feels solid
| while also not denting from knocking it into a doorway by
| accident or worse yet deforming itself from it's own heat.
|
| You can buy quality PCs. You just gotta pay more.
| smackeyacky wrote:
| Pay more for the corporate class laptops from HP or Dell i.e
| Elitebook
|
| Supported longer, better materials, better keyboards.
|
| I'd buy a second hand elitebook over a new acer or whatever
| any day.
| muzani wrote:
| Apple has the same problem. In college, we'd bring our own mice
| to the computer labs because it was better than the buttonless
| Apple mice they had there. Even today, the input devices have
| been IMO Apple's weak spot and the main reason I stayed away
| from MacBooks.
|
| I had a MBP, 2019 I believe. It was riddled with problems. True
| Tone color was wrong. Flickering on the display. The weird
| internet connectivity which often required some hacky restart.
| The touch bar was a terrible idea; this was a time when other
| laptops had high quality touch screens that were actually
| useful. The touch bar was a half-hearted implementation with a
| fraction of the benefits of a touch screen, but taking up a
| whole row on the keyboard.
|
| But then they make the best processors and have the most power
| in a compact space, so as OP said, there's really no other
| option. I gave it another chance and they've fixed all the
| problems from the 2019 model.
| theshrike79 wrote:
| The Touch Bar was a good idea. Replacing the F-keys with it
| was a _terrible_ idea.
|
| If they would've just added the bar above the normal F-keys,
| everyone would've either embraced or ignored it. But taking
| away function keys was just too much for pretty much everyone
| - especially ESC (which they rectified in a later iteration).
| brundolf wrote:
| A key differentiator though is that when Apple gets something
| wrong it's usually a poor _design_ decision, not careless
| craftsmanship. The Magic Mouse and the Apple TV remote from a
| couple years ago are two of the most beautifully-crafted
| examples of bad input devices that you can possibly find
| bsder wrote:
| Why does nobody care about the janky Bluetooth mouse that's
| only janky on macOS?
|
| Why does nobody care that my USB 2.0 ports on my external USB-C
| docks die in about 20 minutes necessitating a reboot--again,
| only on macOS (and only on newer macOS versions--old ones work
| fine).
|
| How many _years_ did it take Apple to (sort of) fix their
| shittastic keyboards?
|
| How garbagey is Xcode relative to _any other_ IDE nowadays?
|
| I can go on ... and on.
|
| Macbooks may _look_ pretty, but the software has been becoming
| increasingly garbage. And I use _software_ to get my job done--
| the hardware merely needs to be sufficient (I generally
| customize my laptops to use an i5 (including mac)--which ducks
| a lot of the idiotic thermal issues).
|
| I'm sitting on a Lenovo Carbon X1 with Linux full-time now. I
| finally got tired of fighting craptastic software from Apple.
| If I'm gonna fight software, I might as well be on Linux.
|
| And, surprisingly, my experience on Linux has been _better_
| than the last year or two on macOS.
| AA-BA-94-2A-56 wrote:
| I'm going to offer a dissenting opinion. I don't have the
| same issues you do with janky mice and USB 2.0 ports.
|
| I owned a previous Macbook Air with a "shittastic" keyboard
| and never had an issue- although I'm glad I now have the new
| M1 with a better keyboard.
|
| > Macbooks may look pretty, but the software has been
| becoming increasingly garbage.
|
| I had the unfortunate displeasure of being issued a top of
| the line Windows 11 computer for work, and it was a horrible
| experience. Basic things that Mac OS gets right like search,
| recursively deleting files, and bash environments Windows
| either struggles with or requires workarounds.
|
| > And, surprisingly, my experience on Linux has been better
| than the last year or two on macOS.
|
| Linux is an incredible family of operating systems. Every few
| years I will try downloading and installing a few distros. I
| always run into issues with GPUs, sound cards, and WiFi. Once
| I get past those, I run into different sets of issues. One
| that sticks with me is the awful nested menus in XCFE.
|
| Apple in some ways have allowed some behaviour in their MacOS
| to regress, but it is still the top choice for me. Mac OS is
| not garbage. I'm sorry to hear that you had an awful
| experience with it, but I am still very productive with it.
| Toniglandyl wrote:
| > and bash environments You mean zsh on mac, I think.
|
| You may try Fedora, for me it just works (with an AMD
| graphic card), and Gnome is pretty usable, even ergonomics
| these days.
| brimble wrote:
| > Linux is an incredible family of operating systems. Every
| few years I will try downloading and installing a few
| distros. I always run into issues with GPUs, sound cards,
| and WiFi. Once I get past those, I run into different sets
| of issues. One that sticks with me is the awful nested
| menus in XCFE.
|
| I was a linux-on-the-desktop user for about a decade before
| switching to Mac, and like you, I try Linux out again from
| time to time. My experience is similar: I hit stuff I just
| don't have the time or patience to deal with anymore, every
| single time. Looking back, it only _ever_ seemed good
| because I was somehow blind to how much time I was losing,
| and I 'd learned to work around or ignore a bunch of broken
| stuff on my systems.
| watmough wrote:
| I'm on Ubuntu 20.04 on a crisp new Lenovo P1. Expensive but
| very nice laptop. The powerbrick did self-destruct, but I
| bought the fancy service plan and support shipped me a
| replacement after just a few questions with no issues.
|
| I would echo your experience. macOS has gone significantly
| downhill overall, in terms of sheer ugliness and hassle to
| use as a developer box. I'm think about the continual prompts
| for running software and allowing access to folders etc.,
| incredible difficulty in getting non-macOS frameworks like
| SDL etc., to run.
|
| It's no longer worth the hassle.
|
| My work Razer Blade 15 runs CentOS 7. My MBP M1 runs Asahi.
| And this Lenovo is running Ubuntu 20.04. Gnome on all of
| them, and by and large, much much better experience than
| either current Windows or macOS.
| brimble wrote:
| > Macbooks may look pretty, but the software has been
| becoming increasingly garbage.
|
| I consider most of their "free" add-on software best-in-class
| or at least best-for-my-use case, with only a couple
| exceptions (including, yes, Xcode). The software is _a whole
| lot_ of what keeps me on Mac hardware.
| brailsafe wrote:
| > Why does nobody care about the janky Bluetooth mouse that's
| only janky on macOS?
|
| Which mouse? I've always had bad experiences with Bluetooth
| mice, but have chalked it up to BT being a shit protocol for
| mice.
|
| > Why does nobody care that my USB 2.0 ports on my external
| USB-C docks die in about 20 minutes necessitating a reboot--
| again, only on macOS (and only on newer macOS versions--old
| ones work fine).
|
| Is it all USB 2.0 ports that die in that case, or just the
| ones on your external dock? Are you using an adapter of some
| sort as well?
|
| > How many years did it take Apple to (sort of) fix their
| shittastic keyboards?
|
| This seems a bit petty to me. I don't disagree, but if they
| fix it they fix it, and afaik they have. Lots of improvement
| to make, but I quite like the current ones as much as I can.
| Laptop keyboards across the board are only going to be barely
| passable imo, because the feedback to me is less important
| than scrunching my hands together in a way that fucks with my
| shoulders. This is true of full size mechanical keyboards as
| well. I think it's important, if you care, to re-evaluate
| every so often. If a restaurant I like makes a thing that
| sucks once or twice, I'll wait a bit and try it again a while
| later, and it's no longer that important that I didn't like
| it previously
| varunprasad wrote:
| macOS for many years now has been inferior to Windows, IMO.
| sjtindell wrote:
| It feels like 90% of the products I use these days I find
| myself asking, "did they even try using their own thing?" All
| these steps, all these weird one-offs, for my dead-simple,
| totally average idiot use case?
| FpUser wrote:
| >"Why does nobody care about creaking plastic? About sticky-
| feeling texture? About uneven weight distribution? About the
| sound that materials make when handling them? About flickering
| in software?"
|
| I notice none of it on my ASUS and HP gaming laptops.
| [deleted]
| bluefirebrand wrote:
| > Why does nobody care about creaking plastic? About sticky-
| feeling texture? About uneven weight distribution? About the
| sound that materials make when handling them?
|
| Because the value of a laptop is the parts inside, not the
| presentation. Why _would_ I care about those things? Or at
| least why would I care about them enough to make me spend more
| than I have to?
| can16358p wrote:
| Well, because you'd be potentially looking at it and using it
| for hours almost every day for years as a professional?
|
| For me something I spend my time that much should look nice.
| That _combined with_ the parts inside is perfection, which is
| the M1 MBP for me.
| ciwolsey wrote:
| Listen to this person, they're a professional
| bluefirebrand wrote:
| How much are you actually looking at a laptop's aesthetics
| versus looking at the information displayed on a screen
| though?
|
| Does it really matter to you to have something pretty
| sitting on your desk while you work? That seems really
| weird to me. Personally I couldn't care less. Especially in
| the context of a professional work laptop which is a
| machine that goes onto the corner of my desk and I plug a
| bunch of other things into and basically ignore forever
| past that point.
| avar wrote:
| > Why does nobody care about creaking plastic?
|
| I care way more that my Dell laptop is trivial to disassemble
| than that making it that way (cheaply) involves plastic, panel
| gaps and creaking joints.
| xnx wrote:
| Or materials that look grimy/grubby from use and wear (e.g.
| Thinkpad touchpads). My go-to has been to run Windows (best OS)
| on Mac laptops (best hardware), but with M1, it looks like this
| will no longer be an option. Hoping for some magic cross-
| architecture emulation.
| uniqueuid wrote:
| Extremely important, I forgot that.
|
| I think we should ask for hardware to remain beautiful in
| use. Look around you: Except for things made out of wood,
| metal, paper, glass or ceramic, most things will fail that
| test.
| jedberg wrote:
| > Windows (best OS)
|
| I'll admit, I haven't touched a Windows machine in over a
| decade, and it hasn't been my daily driver since 2002. The
| last version I used on a semi-regular basis was Win2K3 at
| work.
|
| I'm willing to give it another shot though. Why do you think
| it's the best now?
| can16358p wrote:
| With ARM adoption it might again be an option. I'm using
| Windows ARM in Parallels on M1 Mac and use Visual Studio
| perfectly.
|
| Microsoft says "it might not work" yet it works flawlessly.
| YMMV though.
| ddoolin wrote:
| I think Framework and System76 are largely replacing the best
| options from the traditional PC manufacturers for Linux users
| (and maybe many Windows users as well?)
| [deleted]
| SteveNuts wrote:
| If System76 can get their own laptop chassis designed and
| fabricated I think a lot of people will be all over that.
| na85 wrote:
| Maybe when System76 starts manufacturing their own systems I'll
| be interested. I don't want a rebranded Clevo.
| akvadrako wrote:
| Framework doesn't even support Linux and they only have one
| model, which is not enough to meet everyones needs.
| warmwaffles wrote:
| > Framework doesn't even support Linux
|
| Yet. I am pretty sure you could spin up Archlinux / Ubuntu on
| it. I'd give it a shot if I had the need to replace my
| Thinkpad.
| eu wrote:
| Yes, they do.
|
| https://community.frame.work/c/framework-laptop/linux/91
| markus_zhang wrote:
| For a personal non-AAA-gaming machine, especially one for
| learning and exploring, I'll probably fetch one from Dell
| refurbished when there is a 20% or more discount and install
| Linux.
| death_syn wrote:
| I also used to always run ThinkPads (and Precision workstations
| with pointing sticks). I these days run a System76 Lemur Pro with
| a USB thinkpad keyboard I stick on top. The built-in keyboard is
| good, but trackpads and I have never gotten along. They've come a
| long way. Another option that friend got was the Frame Work. I
| helped him assemble it, and it also is a great GNU/Linux machine.
| Everything just works.
| throwaway675309 wrote:
| I was never able to find a non-gaming PC laptop with: 1. AMD
| processor 2. 16:10 120hz high refresh display 3. 9+ Hour battery
| life 4. 32gb ram 5. Less than 5lbs 6. Powerbrick that didn't
| weigh more than an Atari 5200
| aquir wrote:
| I can recommend the HP ZBook (or any other mobile workstations),
| it's built to last. It's not cheap but still cheaper than a
| spec'd out MacBook. I have the x360 version so you can even have
| a touchscreen and pen - that's definitely not possible on MacBook
| :)
| davidg109 wrote:
| Agreed. I'm back in the market and for a MacBook myself. They
| simply work far better.
| Saphyel wrote:
| I'm a Dell XPS 13 user here (with Linux) and I'm very happy I
| actually bought it twice (2014 and 2021). 0 problems, the laptop
| is always cold, no noise, everything works fine.
|
| At work I had several MBP in the meantime. All of them with
| several problems. Docker extremely slow, Bluetooth not working,
| ports not working, noise like a nuclear reactor, extremely hot
| like you can actually make a pizza on top also the OS is very
| strict and hard to tell any other MBP user how to install things
| or how to configure it feels like a roulette and some of them if
| you open more than 6 apps it may reboot so good luck if MBP is
| _your only option_ because you will be screw.
| edmcnulty101 wrote:
| I had the reverse problem. Had several Dell XPS's both of the
| 13" and 15" variety. All had issues the made them unusable.
| Meanwhiles the Mac's I've had have never had a SINGLE issue.
| throwaway675309 wrote:
| Dells QC has gone down for nearly a decade, I bought one of
| the new XPS last year, fantastic screen but it had throttling
| issues and SSD corruptions within two weeks of using it on
| Windows 11.
| tristor wrote:
| I'm probably old by HN standards, and I've been fortunate enough
| to have and use a personal computer since the mid/late-80s.
| Throughout that entire time frame I have consistently seen the
| market be a race to the bottom. While that has been detrimental
| to my engineer's mind and my artist's soul, I also understand it
| completely. Without that race to the bottom, computers would
| never have seen as widespread of adoption as they have. There's a
| democratization to moving downmarket.
|
| The unfortunate effect, though, is that even many brands that
| were upmarket at one point have moved downmarket to build their
| business model around volume as economies of scale and
| commoditization have taken over the industry. I remember in the
| mid-90s when IBM stopped supplying mechanical keyboards with PC
| desktops, where other manufacturers had stopped long ago, thus
| removing another reason to pay the premium for an IBM. I can tell
| you as well that the current generation of Thinkpads are a far
| cry from the T60 and X30 of yesteryear.
|
| As it happens, I too have come to the same conclusion. I've been
| using Macbooks and old refurbished Thinkpads for personal
| computing devices for several years now. Luckily if you build
| your own desktop, you still have many high quality options to
| choose from in assembling it, but for laptops Macbooks are the
| name of the game, everything else is just grossly inferior from a
| craftsmanship, aesthetic, and build quality perspective. Frankly,
| I think companies stopped moving downmarket and started staying
| in place while cutting costs as much as possible, and somewhere
| along they way they just stopped caring. Apple is the only
| laptop-producing company left that seems to care about it's
| products, and I hope they stick to it.
| [deleted]
| ppetty wrote:
| "I strongly dislike MacOS because they force the "apple way" of
| doing things."
|
| What does that mean exactly? I'm genuinely curious about what
| Apple forces a user to do. I would think cost is a concrete
| example ... But does Apple restrict you from using some software?
| or executing some work related function? some other
| functionality? or is that "Apple way" with regard to Apple's user
| experiences?
|
| I wish there was a "Vent HN:" for posts like this. I'm not saying
| there isn't a legitimate argument in the original post; but
| there's a lot of hyperbole & vague statements too. And venting
| can be healthy.
| pathartl wrote:
| Certain things like Gatekeeper are a non-starter for some
| people. I certainly won't buy a macOS-based machine in the
| future because of it. Back in November 2020 there was an outage
| in Apple's cloud that handles Gatekeeper verification. Users
| were not able to launch any non-Apple-Inc. signed binary for an
| hour or two. I imagine because OP says they main Linux issues
| like that are completely unacceptable. Imagine not being able
| to open Chrome on Windows because Microsoft's servers can't
| respond to verify the integrity of the binary. Absolutely
| insane.
| porcc wrote:
| Macbooks are abysmal for window management, for example. There
| are some lightweight tools that can manage some placement but
| they are neutered in one way or another. Deeper integration
| requires disabling BIOS-related security which I am personally
| uncomfortable doing, and still doesn't offer full control like
| you'd get on other Unix systems. Most of the OS is similarly
| untouchable.
|
| Another example is Safari and its extensions ecosystem: an
| Apple license is required for publishing and as such even basic
| tools (stylus etc.) can require the user to purchase with no
| guarantee of developer support in the medium to long term.
|
| OOTB the biggest example is the Mac-style hotkeys, its a
| persistent and extremely annoying problem for new Mac users and
| is, from the outset, unfixable via any sort of configuration,
| BIOS or not. Concretely: CTRL + T for new tab is now command +
| T, however switching tabs is still CTRL + Tab (Mac control is
| more like alt, in this case).
|
| It's an eternal reminder that you are now stuck doing things
| the Apple way even if it's just relearning all of your hotkeys.
| sdflhasjd wrote:
| Vent? I recently had an issue where my Internet connection went
| down, I was left with my phone and a tiny data cap.
|
| The work I was doing required an Internet connection, but when
| I tethered my mac, it kept trying to download gigabytes of
| updates.
|
| It ended in a stalemate with seeming no way to pause, cancel or
| cap the download.
|
| Both windows and Linux will set you set download cap, flag
| connections as metered, pause downloads or kill update
| processes.
|
| I find that a lot of other Apple stuff grating too, not limited
| to:
|
| - iOS development hoops with certs, provisioning profiles, beta
| reviews. It doesn't help that AppStoreConnect is bad.
|
| - Apple Developer account 2FA - which is either "trusted
| device" or SMS. SMS is unreliable and insecure, trusted device
| ties me to a laptop I don't want to always have with me.
|
| - I had to sign into the AppStore on my mac to get XCode, and
| now it insists on me using iCloud and iMessage.
| gwn7 wrote:
| It is extremely funny that people are able to come to conclusions
| like this from just 2 data points.
|
| "Macbooks seem to be the only viable option these days", because
| I had bad experiences with _two_ non-Macbook computers.
|
| To be fair; I don't think that the author came to that conclusion
| only from those 2 anecdotes. But still, that is the way the
| argument is presented. And it really looks absurd.
| cpill wrote:
| Like he said, he was unlucky. I got a Lenovo Carbon X1 and it
| worked with Ubuntu without problems (well, the finger print
| reader didn't work which become a security problem with work as
| we realised the weakest point was our laptops which had all the
| IP on them). Other than that it was a joy!
| sascha_sl wrote:
| It's just that there are endless pitfalls, especially running
| Linux on more recent hardware.
|
| For instance, if you would be running Kernel 5.14+ but not
| 5.18-rc2+, you'd be crashing every time you try to wake from
| suspend right now.[1]
|
| [1]: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/dfbba2518aac420
| 4203...
| Foivos wrote:
| These two computers are among the best windows computers
| though. So, you expect them to set the bar.
| oldandboring wrote:
| Definitely look very seriously at Framework. Bought one last year
| and it's easily been the best computer purchase I've ever made.
| Solved every problem I experienced with Dell and Lenovo. I run
| Manjaro Linux on it.
|
| https://frame.work
| smeej wrote:
| Mine still won't even wake from sleep, and will freeze all
| inputs if it sits even slightly unevenly.
|
| The Framework is a beta product, at best. If you know that and
| are up for the challenge, go for it, but if you want something
| you're not going to have to fiddle with every time you want to
| do anything on it, pick something else.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| What distro and kernel version are you using?
| smeej wrote:
| Ubuntu 21.04 (21.10 was reportedly full of even more bugs,
| so I'm anxiously awaiting 22.04 this week), 5.11 kernel.
| shodan757 wrote:
| This, 100%. Running opensuse 15.3 but with a bleeding edge
| kernerl (via repo) to fix sleep and other issues. Works
| almost perfectly.
| efficax wrote:
| i seriously considered a framework laptop instead of a 14"
| mbpro but the battery life seems to be terrible on them, maybe
| in a few years if intel or amd catch up on power consumption of
| their chips
| linsomniac wrote:
| I've also been a ThinkPad user since the IBM days, but my most
| recent work laptop was a Dell XPS15. It has been working fine for
| me.
|
| For my home laptop, I had been using, for around the last 4
| years, an HP Chrome 13 g1 Chromebook (6Y75), which I really
| loved. Got one for my son for last Christmas for $120 landed.
| 16GB RAM, 32GB SSD, 2560x1440 display. The original one I got for
| $550, it was refurbed on woot. List price was more over a grand,
| but I wasn't prepared to spend that on the experiment.
|
| For the longest time it didn't support the Linux containers, but
| that got remedied last year. I was mostly using it for the
| browser and using a Chrome extension to SSH into my work
| machines. With the Linux containers, it's a full Linux
| environment, though with some restrictions.
|
| However, over it's life it lived very well up to the "just works"
| idea that I got it initially to try out. OS updates are super
| fast (they just show up and when you reboot next they are there,
| <30 seconds).
|
| If you need a full laptop running Linux, you're going to just
| need to get a laptop. I'd probably consider another Dell, it has
| worked fine. My last Thinkpad had some weird battery issues, and
| because of it's slim config it had two small batteries and I
| wasn't quite ready to have work buy $300+ of batteries for a
| problem I couldn't reliably reproduce.
|
| But, I'd definitely consider a Chromebook with Linux containers
| for lighter duty work.
| sdflhasjd wrote:
| Meh. The small company I work at has seen its fair share of weird
| macbook failures, I don't think that - among high end machines -
| they stand much above the crowd.
|
| Funny screens, overheating, broken trackpads, the infamous
| keyboard.
|
| They are definitely more annoying that you can't swap the disks
| if they need sending off for repair though.
| w10-1 wrote:
| Wow! Why suffer the slings and arrows of such garbage? Thinkpads
| were last good in 2000.
|
| MacOS - mini or macbook - is just a life-changer. It's like
| having your own Tesla instead of walking or taking the bus. Don't
| be so put off by the marketing and fandom that you actually make
| yourself suffer. Just get one.
|
| Years from now you'll _still_ be accelerating, and your former
| troubles will be laughable.
| animex wrote:
| My Anecdotal Laptop History:
|
| 2006 HP Pavillion - dragged around the world. Felt a bit
| cheap/plasticy but never had any major issues.
|
| 2013 Macbook Pro Retina was a champ, a bit dated now. Saved me
| from massive back-injury when I fell on some ice and acted as a
| shield. Put a huge dent in the corner. Speakers rumbled a bit
| after. Unusable now due to MacOS limit.
|
| 2015 Asus Zenbook Pro still quite usable. Windows 10 still happy.
| Keys felt a bit plastic/motile but still decent to type on.
|
| 2022 Dell Latitude 7520 just arrived, extremely light and peppy.
| Overall has a very utilitarian feel with a backspace key and
| function row. Nice big trackpad. Hope it lasts a while.
|
| Now the only funny thing is if you add up the cost of all the non
| Apple laptops it equated to the same cost as all the others
| combined.
|
| Pavillion ~$800, Zenbook Pro ~$1299, Dell ~$1699, Macbook Pro
| Retina: ~$3700
|
| Definitely got my eye on a https://frame.work/ soon for personal.
| jaeming wrote:
| I've used both of those laptops with Linux and had zero issues.
| We use Dell at work and it came with Linux installed though I did
| a clean install afterwards with no issues. If you are talking
| about just general reliability of the hardware rather than
| compatibility, I've personally suffered more issues from
| mackbooks in the past than Dell but that's just my personal
| experience. Maybe you just had a bad run of luck on that side?
|
| Also, I have been wanting to try https://system76.com/ for quite
| a while but I can't get my work to approve one.
| aborsy wrote:
| Ubuntu has run well on all laptops I have owned so far. I am
| amazed of high quality software that Linux distributions offer
| for free.
|
| I am not going to use a closed source black box OS from Apple,
| with the possibility of remote surveillance of my device whenever
| the company or governments want.
| joeman1000 wrote:
| I actually agree with you. Anything other than a MacBook is
| indeed just a crapshoot. Chances are, if I buy non-Apple, I'll
| get some half-baked hardware with no customer support beyond the
| bare minimum. If my MacBook fucks up (rare), I can take it to the
| guys at the Apple store and know it'll be sorted out. This is
| really important. They're expensive computers if you're only
| looking at a spec sheet. If you look at:
|
| + Build quality
|
| + Screen quality
|
| + Software cohesiveness
|
| + Customer support
|
| + Longevity
|
| + Resale value
|
| A MacBook is basically a no-brainer today. Even a MB Air is good
| now. Apple is killing the laptop game right now.
| fortran77 wrote:
| My Surface machines are great. Using a Surface Book Pro right
| now, and I have two other lower-end ones.
|
| What's your question?
| overtonwhy wrote:
| Dell XPS is (or was) their high end gaming line. For features and
| quality you want the Dell Precision line.
| jdrc wrote:
| Most people are fine with "just works". I want more
|
| BTW got a huawei matebook as of late. Pretty decent - tries to
| look like a macbook too
| urlwolf wrote:
| I've bought laptops from XMG for the last 10 years (last one
| was an older version of https://www.xmg.gg/en/xmg-neo-15/).
| They last forever, have user replaceable parts, and while they
| are game oriented (I don't game), they even have mechanical
| keyboards (!). Plus having a strong GPU has advantages.
| uuyi wrote:
| Dell XPS are absolute garbage. I had one and it had thermal
| problems galore and was clearly made of any old shit that was the
| lowest bidder frankensteined into whatever config they could
| ship. We had a few of the same spec and model and they had
| different RAM and SSDs in them.
|
| The really annoying thing is that they tried so hard to replicate
| the MacBook packaging experience. This failed miserably when it
| wouldn't come out of the box because the vacuum forming was
| wrong.
|
| Shows how much QA goes into a product if they can't actually not
| fuck up the box.
| skadamou wrote:
| I gave up on PCs because of all the crap-ware that always comes
| loaded on these machines. Yes, Apple more or less forces you to
| do things a specific way but that's better than spending 2 days
| uninstalling bloatware on a brand new machine and then still
| having to fight with "management engines" that slow down the
| laptop while also being impossible to remove.
| JRKrause wrote:
| I am still using a 2011 macbook pro I got for free ~7 years ago.
| It had a bad GPU and Apple replaced the internals for free in
| 2016? I think. Only problem now is some newer software doesn't
| like that I am stuck on an older version of IOS. Everything else
| is perfect (at least for the fact that it needs a new battery
| every 1.5 years or so, only garbage quality ones available for
| this model aftermarket now).
| adhesive_wombat wrote:
| Definitely not as much of a fan of the T580 as much as I was of
| the T440s it replaced (still going, I only changed so I could
| give the T440s to someone else to replace their consumer
| ultrabook that predictably shat the bed and wasn't fixable).
|
| The T580 is much more plasticky, and it's also the last one since
| they ditched the 2.5 inch bay, and they still don't give you two
| drive slots (unless you get the 15p) except for sourcing one of
| about 2 models of SSD that fit the WLAN slot, which is getting
| harder and harder. And the suspend battery life is maybe 20% of
| what it used to be, but I could probably fix that if I wanted to.
|
| Anyway, it doesn't quite feel as amazing to me as the T440s was,
| and I know some people hate the '40 machines.
| markus_zhang wrote:
| Are you buying from them directly? I think it might ne bad luck
| since I never encountered those issues. However I haven't made
| any purchase this year so could be wrong.
| fetus8 wrote:
| I recently was in the market for a laptop for personal use, and
| wanted to spend around $1200-1400 USD for a Windows based
| machine. All I wanted was a decently powerful CPU, higher
| resolution screen, and a thin and light body. I simply couldn't
| get past the fact that most laptops in that price range are
| gaming focused, and have non-user replaceable components. They
| also tend to have plastic bodies and most I saw were running
| Windows 11. I got turned off by the PC market pretty quick.
|
| I ultimately decided to get a new Macbook Pro 14in (on sale for
| $1750) and have 0 regrets so far.
| dijonman2 wrote:
| Entry level Durabooks go for $1500. It's a little heavy, but
| it's serviceable and not made of cheap plastic.
| Jackpillar wrote:
| speed_spread wrote:
| Something doesn't add up in your story. You ended buying a
| machine that was 350$ over your stated max budget. I am also
| not sure what you include in "user replaceable components" but
| Macbooks are, from experience, generally harder to service than
| PCs. Maybe you just wanted a Mac and were looking for reasons
| to indulge yourself?
| drgvond wrote:
| > I strongly dislike MacOS because they force the "apple way" of
| doing things.
|
| Complaining about this is like complaining that cats don't behave
| like dogs.
|
| macOS has its own idiosyncrasies. It may not be for everyone, but
| maybe this is the reason why things "just work" for the general
| public (and more).
|
| I'm not aware of Windows working on Apple Silicon, but there is
| Asahi Linux which, I hear, has done a good job with their M1
| support, although it likely comes with compromises (again, this
| is second hand information).
| ramtatatam wrote:
| I'm on thinkpad P53 since 2019, beefed up with 128Gb of RAM,
| running Arch on it. Had no problems with this laptop and overall
| good experience (though, my expectations are not high when it
| comes to OS, I don't mind scripting it or fixing it on my own
| when something does not work). It's more a mobile workstation
| than laptop, mainly because of Nvidia GPU for CUDA. Before making
| this purchase I was considering a few Dell models as I had good
| experience with multiple Dell laptops, but 128Gb capable
| motherboard won and I don't regret it. I have never used MackBook
| before, so I'm not judging if it would be better or not (I guess
| maybe more expensive? And maybe it's more of a hassle to run Arch
| on it?)
| cpach wrote:
| _"But it seems to be the only option these days to buy a computer
| with ease and get a computer 'that just works'."_
|
| Some people will disagree, but IMHO: Yes.
| TheChaplain wrote:
| I'd say just unlucky. My Thinkpad Carbon X1 is rock solid, no
| issues the last 1.5 years even though my large cat frequently
| sleeps on it.
| tynan wrote:
| X1 Carbon feels a lot nicer to me than a Macbook. It's also
| lighter than a Macbook air and has a bigger screen and better
| keyboard.
|
| Macbooks are better than about 95% of PC laptops, but that's
| because Macbooks are only in the lower/mid upper end of
| laptops. PC laptops range from absolute garbage to being
| significantly better than Macbooks.
|
| When people complain about how terrible PC laptops are, it's
| very rare that they've spent a meaningful amount of time (read:
| enough to get used to the trackpoint) with a high end PC
| laptop.
| throwaway675309 wrote:
| I want to like the carbon but the lack of AMD options and a
| hard cap of 16 GB of RAM keep me away.
| imhoguy wrote:
| You may check X13 AMD Gen 2 which has 32GB soldered RAM
| option. Although I am not sure how much it differs from X1
| Carbon. Anyway I prefer a bit more screen real estate so went
| with T14 which is still very portable too and gets up to 48GB
| RAM. What I miss is lack of TB4/USB4 support to plug in eGPU.
| Some rumors say AMD Ryzen 6000 line should have it.
| alexfoo wrote:
| Not sure where you get that RAM cap from. I have 32GB in my
| X1.
| kiwijamo wrote:
| Really happy with my X1 as well. I prefer my X1 over my work
| supplied MacBook. The difference is like night and day for me.
| YMMV of course.
| nimbius wrote:
| not to sound like a curmudgeon but I for one will be in the cold
| cold ground before I ever declare macbook as the only viable
| option.
|
| hackers are working hard on really cool daily driver laptops that
| respect your freedom and work to deliver an excellent computing
| experience.
|
| system76 offers a good balance of performance and value:
| https://system76.com/laptops
|
| pinebook offers a competitive and cheap arm daily driver:
| https://pine64.com/
|
| and purism frankly rivals Apple levels of build quality and
| performance: https://puri.sm/
| buffington wrote:
| I got to play with a Purism Librem 14 machine last week, and
| the first thing I noticed was how heavy it was. The build
| quality seemed fine, but compared to a nearby M1, there's no
| contest about which one had the better build quality. When
| giving the machine back to its owner, one of the rubber feet on
| the Librem 14 simply fell off in my hand.
|
| Thinking maybe it was a fluke, the owner of the machine fiddled
| with one of the other rubber feet, and was able to get it to
| pop off just by flicking it with his finger.
|
| The security features are nice on the Librem, but as
| configured, this particular laptop cost more than the M1
| Macbook Air. Same amount of storage, same amount of ram.
| Different CPU's, obviously.
|
| When asked about battery life of the Librem 14, the owner said
| he hadn't really seen how long it'd typically last on the
| Librem. I can say though that the M1 Macbook Air, during my
| normal use (writing and compiling code, slack, email, zoom,
| etc), is having a bad day if it doesn't last at least 6 hours.
| I've used the M1 on a trip recently that took 38 hours, door to
| door. I didn't charge the M1 once, and used it quite a bit
| during various flights and while waiting for flights. I worked,
| watched a couple of movies, had a couple of Facetime calls. I
| still had 25% battery when I finally arrived.
|
| While I admit that it's probably not fair to make a judgment
| after holding the Librem 14 for about five minutes, I can't
| really say that the quality of the Librem 14 rivals that of
| Apple.
|
| Edit: forgot to add. I've rarely felt my M1 get even warm, let
| alone turn on a fan. My Macbook Air doesn't even have fans. I
| used to be able to count on the Intel based Macbooks to warm my
| fingers during winter, but not any more. The M1's run very
| cool. The Librem 14 was loud. And hot. Not warm, but hot. My
| fingers were sweating when trying out the keyboard.
| gourneau wrote:
| The new Tensorbook also looks like it has a high build quality.
|
| https://lambdalabs.com/deep-learning/laptops/tensorbook
| tmnstr85 wrote:
| i've got a refurbed evoo with a Ryzen 5, it cost 225$ from
| walmart, it'll run anything, linux, win11 - you name it. I use
| every port on the laptop when i'm at my desk, its super
| lightweight and the battery life is admirable. my point here is
| that its all about the users preference, if you want something
| totally plug and play, you're going to have to pay for it and
| then you will still probably have issues. i've got an old gaming
| rig that i've transformed into a proxmox host, between the laptop
| and being able to connect to any of the VMs, I find that I have
| everything i need to stay productive, keep my data safe and not
| be limited by hardware or cloud costs.
| 28304283409234 wrote:
| I'm on my 3rd(!) company supplied macbook in almost 2 years.
| Macbook Pro, 16'', 32GB. First Macbook: screen broke in the
| middle. Second Macbook: screen broke and MacOS is complaining
| that there's something wrong with the SSD. Third macbook I just
| received and can't tell what will break. But break it will.
|
| I only move them around the house, never on the road. When I move
| them, I place them in a Thule Gauntlet. I really take care of
| these babies as I find it wasteful not to.
|
| So that is my anecdata on the 'stability' and 'care' of Apple.
|
| My experience differs from yours. Both are wrong and true. You
| could just be unlucky, and so can I. No need to completely write
| off Dell or Lenovo over that though.
| uuyi wrote:
| If that's an Intel one you're getting, I can understand it.
| However the M1 ones are a completely different computer. I am
| shocked at how good they are.
| a257 wrote:
| I've had a M1 Macbook pro (13-inch) display shatter on me
| within 10 months of purchase for no reason. The cost of
| repair is $800 which being around 80% of the cost of the
| laptop, was untenable. Since then it has been gathering dust
| in the storage closet for the past five months.
|
| Looking online, it seems like there was a quality issue with
| their displays for the first few batches of production.
|
| https://www.pcmag.com/news/apple-facing-m1-macbook-
| cracked-s...
|
| It is a shame. I did enjoy using the laptop very much.
| uuyi wrote:
| Why did you not have insurance?
|
| 99% of the time I've seen this sort of stuff happen it's
| because there was a screen protector or someone shut some
| crap in the lid.
| wu_187 wrote:
| Why should you need insurance on something that should be
| covered under the manufacturer warranty?
| kiwijamo wrote:
| Maybe I'm unlucky too. I have a work MacBook and a Lenovo
| ThinkPad manufactured the same year. The ThinkPad has aged
| extremely well and I'm really happy with it. The MacBook on the
| other hand struggles badly with tasks the ThinkPad does without
| a sweat. The battery life is also far worse on the MacBook. The
| MacBook has needed repairs whereas the ThinkPad has not. I'm
| sure both would have been fine brand new but it's interesting
| to see how they've aged over the years. It used to be that
| Apple hardware aged well, but I don't think that's the case
| anymore especially with their Intel hardware. YMMV as parent
| has pointed out.
| Sohurt00 wrote:
| I'm on the same 2018 I got in 2018.
|
| Every Dell or Lenovo I had before that was cracked, missing
| plastic bits, feet and screws after 4 years.
|
| Last Lenovo had battery issues from the start. 2018 MacBook
| still lasts a day.
|
| But my dual Xeon Dell Precision desktop from 2017 is still a
| beast, never had issues.
|
| It's a gradient in the aggregate but my personal experience
| says it's just fine to write off any laptop that isn't a Mac.
| The plastic housing alone makes me think they take a "Gillette
| razor" approach to portables; who cares if it cracks apart,
| just replace it! which I have a hard time looking passed given
| the industrial waste shitshow we already have.
| danaris wrote:
| There have definitely been some noteworthy problems with
| Apple's laptops in recent years...but I'm honestly not sure
| what it is you're doing to them to break screens on multiple
| machines in a row. You're the first person I've ever heard with
| that specific complaint, which suggests it may be something
| unusual about your usage pattern that's causing it.
|
| Note that this isn't saying "you're being abusive to the
| computers": I can imagine daily-use patterns that are genuinely
| the best you can do that would result in much higher physical
| stress to a laptop than your typical office work. It's just
| saying that maybe, for your particular use case, you might need
| something more rugged than a stock MacBook of whatever type
| without a case on.
| vikaveri wrote:
| Yeah, maybe he's holding it wrong?
| clint wrote:
| As an equally useless anecdote, I've probably owned ~10 mac
| laptops in my life and I've never had an issue. I literally
| have never used a laptop sleeve or anything I just throw it in
| a bag and go. Literally one of the most indestructible things
| I've ever owned.
| varunprasad wrote:
| You're extremely lucky. Or maybe you change your laptops
| before Apple acknowledges the very real problems they have.
|
| So many of their laptops have had issues necessitating
| recalls, but because they were able to delay those recalls
| until 5+ years after those devices were released (even if
| complaints started way earlier), they get away with it.
|
| I've already had 2 Apple laptops where I took in a 4-5 year
| old device, and basically had them replace/refresh it for
| free. One was the gen 1 or gen 2 Macbook which had a
| ridiculous discoloration issue on the case palm rests,
| combined with the case peeling apart, and the other a Macbook
| Pro (2011?2012?) that had a graphics card issue.
| watmough wrote:
| The Core 2 Duo 17" MacBookPro is the most expensive and
| worst machine I ever owned.
|
| The 13" MBP M1 has been the best, apart from the wretched
| touchbar.
| tobinfekkes wrote:
| I'm shocked the LG Gram doesn't get more attention. It's a dream
| come true laptop for a non-Apple developer. It took me months to
| actually find it after needing to replace my Vaio, but going 2
| years strong with no issues whatsoever.
|
| It has it all. Lightweight, great battery life, big screen, full
| backlit keyboard, numpad, latest processors, USB-C charging and
| display, the only PC trackpad that beats the Mac. And with
| PowerToys, you can lay out the keyboard however you need.
|
| Unless you need a dedicated GPU, it's the complete PC laptop in
| my opinion.
| sirsinsalot wrote:
| I didn't even realise LG did a laptop, it looks like a nice
| machine tbf
| jesuslop wrote:
| Absolutely shocking. With that weight of about a Kg you can
| actually have it on your lap long times (I'm now lying on bed
| writing), but the screen is big (17''), and undoes something
| the 16:9 aspect ratio mania (it's 16:10). And advertises as
| having passed some military-sounding duress tests (mine has
| fallen one or two times without consequences). Only con is
| later models have a physical num-pad, so keyboard G-H middle
| point is deviated from trackpad center.
| smrtinsert wrote:
| What about thinkpads again? I think they have the better keyboard
| anyway compared to other lenovos (or at least used to).
| personally on 2020 m1 here though.
| xcdzvyn wrote:
| The keyboards are still good, but getting worse. They're
| already a significant downgrade from the IBM editions, but
| still better than pretty much any other laptop. They're clearly
| ready to sacrifice a lot in the name of size though. Both the
| cooling solution and battery life are also pretty poor.
|
| Or you could opt for a T-series ThinkPad, but they come with
| their own host of issues. And you're still missing out on
| everything a MacBook does better.
| Kon-Peki wrote:
| The Thinkpad range has become very broad. You have to buy a
| really high-end one to get good quality.
|
| But the other problem we've seen over the last few years is
| that you can order one and have no idea when it will actually
| arrive. Apple, on the other hand, has been rock solid with
| their delivery estimates (current China lockdown situation
| may change that - too early to tell).
| pathartl wrote:
| Work just upgraded me to an HP EliteBook 835 G8. It's got a Ryzen
| 7 Pro 5850U and 24GB of RAM. I do mostly .NET/ASP.NET development
| and it's seriously fantastic. Form factor is good, repairability
| is good (granted our company is also an HP authorized service
| center), I/O is good (really only missing eth), and it has a
| matte display with a touchscreen.
|
| I really think that Apple devices get so much clout mostly due to
| advertising.
|
| My issues with my iPhone 7 radio made me switch to Android after
| they told me it was Qualcomm's fault that it wasn't bonded to the
| PCB properly.
|
| My 2009 MacBook Pro 13" had some sort of issue where the SATA III
| part of the controller died and I was forced to either pay $800
| for a new logic board because I had upgraded the RAM or use an
| optical drive HDD caddy which ran at SATA I(?) speeds. I had also
| had the logic board replaced once and the screen replaced twice
| less than a year after I got it as the screen had stopped
| working. Don't remember the actual cause of the issue, but seeing
| as it was covered I have a feeling there was a known issue with
| that line.
|
| My girlfriend's 2011 13" MacBook Pro ended up with non-
| functioning USB ports due to a known but never recalled, even
| silently, issue with a chip on the logic board. Again, would have
| been a $500+ logic board replacement "fix".
|
| My 2016 MacBook Air 13" started to develop a crack on the black
| plastic piece covering the hinge because of heat stress. I paid
| for the most "performant" SKU and after one major macOS update it
| was practically unusable.
|
| My mom's 2017 MacBook Air 13" worked fine until this past year
| where the trackpad and keyboard died. Sure, got 5 years out of
| it, but this is also a very common issue as far as I can tell
| from research. Also, who the hell routes the keyboard through the
| trackpad? That's madness.
|
| This is all anecdotal for sure, but I am staying away from Apple
| products from now on based on my experience. Especially these
| days with the machines having non-user-serviceable parts, I just
| can't take the risk anymore. What happens when my logic board
| inevitably dies? All of my data on that device is toast with no
| way to recover it. Ultimately you have to purchase something
| that's going to work and is serviceable... either by yourself or
| a service center.
| greedo wrote:
| "What happens when my logic board inevitably dies? All of my
| data on that device is toast with no way to recover it."
|
| Backups are your friend. Backblaze, Arq, etc etc etc. Tons of
| cheap options out there.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| Backups are important, but what I also think is important is
| that an entire laptop shouldn't become garbage just because a
| soldered component on it fails.
| alphabettsy wrote:
| It's not garbage. Just replace the motherboard.
| pathartl wrote:
| "Just replace the motherboard" and lose all of your data
| on it. Yes, backups are important, but there's a loss of
| time when you have to restore from backup or provision a
| new machine/motherboard with your environment.
|
| Not to mention that "just replace the motherboard" can
| often mean costing half, if not more, the original price
| of the machine. What happens if my SSD wears out? I just
| have to replace the entire logic board for one wear
| component?
|
| Say it's not the SSD and it's something else like a
| voltage regulator. Now this motherboard is complete
| scrap. There's no harvesting of the RAM or SSD, so the
| part is probably $300 more expensive than it needs to be.
| And all those useful parts that are already scarce in a
| chip shortage will just be ground down and "recycled".
| These laptops suck.
| cutler wrote:
| Stay with the "Mac way". It's far better than Windows. Take disk
| imaging, for example. As far as I'm aware you need special
| software to image a Windows system but with Mac OS X it's a
| feature. OS X is also BSD Unix so you have far superior cli.
| rmbyrro wrote:
| I'll stick to Arch Linux way for now, thanks.
| ComradePhil wrote:
| Windows has a MUCH superior cli these days because of WSL.
| cultofmetatron wrote:
| its certainly superior to previous windows but its ultimately
| a hosted vm in windows.
|
| OSX is a native unix. Yes there are limitations such as
| needing a vm to run docker but the core system is posix and
| the filesystems are all laid out in in teh unix way. on of
| this damn C/D drive nonsense.
| digisign wrote:
| I like named volumes to be honest. They just should be able
| to have more than one letter, like Netware and Amiga had.
| bostonsre wrote:
| It feels a lot more like a dual os system than just running
| a vm inside of windows. The integration between the two is
| pretty seamless and powerful. e.g. this is in my wsl
| .bashrc file, it writes to my windows clipboard by running
| the powershell.exe windows executeable:
| function cb () { powershell.exe -command "\$input
| | set-clipboard" }
|
| Mac is unix sure, but they have diverged from the popular
| main stream linux distributions and you still need to learn
| various gotchas and different ways of doing things. At
| least for me, our deployment environment is amazon linux 2
| and I use amazon linux 2 for wsl. I am also an sre, so
| maybe that matters to me more than most and unix is good
| enough for most.
| johnklos wrote:
| I think you have that backwards: it's Linux that has
| diverged from the Unix way of doing things. All the
| various gotchas and different ways are Linux-isms. After
| all, which came first, and which came later, then
| changed?
|
| macOS is more consistent with the BSDs than Linux is with
| older Linux or one distro is with another.
| bostonsre wrote:
| Ok sure, macOS has stood still and most main stream linux
| oses diverged from it. I don't think that makes it being
| unix any more preferable when stated that way.
| ccouzens wrote:
| Celebrating Unix certification feels dated to me.
|
| Once upon a time our production servers might have also
| been Unix. And developing from a Unix system was
| therefore desirable.
|
| But these days our production services are almost
| certainly running on Linux (and probably Docker).
| Mac/Unix will have incompatibilities with this.
|
| But you can get away with a non-Linux local environment
| because: * most server software doesn't use APIs that
| differ between environments * most OSes are well
| supported by Docker- which may work using a seamless
| Linux VM.
| uuyi wrote:
| No it has a decent CLI half baked in with a number of weird
| ass exceptions that punch you in the face regularly.
|
| Better to scrap it and run a proper Debian box inside a
| hyper-v VM I found.
|
| Or do what I did and drop kick the steaming Dell turd out of
| a window and buy a mac.
| luc_ wrote:
| That's just like your opinion, man.
| speed_spread wrote:
| BSD.ude
| ccouzens wrote:
| There is a third option :)
| IE6 wrote:
| FWIW I bought a new Framework laptop and it's worked perfectly
| with Ubuntu since day 1 YMMV - a major advantage of Framework
| over other brands is down the road if a component breaks I have a
| higher probability of being able to replace it as compared to
| most anything else (think: like an old thinkpad)
| black_puppydog wrote:
| I just got my first thinkpad in 9 years, after having spent two
| years on a dell xps from hell. I have to say, this is the first
| time in a long while I'm back in love with hardware. Got a
| second-hand L14 AMD G1, upped the ram and SSD (yes you can do
| that!) and apparently there's even an option to add another m2
| ssd since the ryzen in this thing has some spare PCIe lanes that
| are hooked up to the WWAN slot I'm not using.
|
| My whole family and most of my colleagues use macs/iOS all over,
| and interacting with these things is plain infuriating to me.
| Plus, somehow Apple pulls an amazing PR stunt where somehow
| everything is purported to be easy, but really they rely on
| untold hours of non-volunteer work from family & friends who feel
| bound to help out with Mac handling, because they feel "it's
| apple, it _has_ to be easy... right? "
|
| Anyhow, these are my two cents.
| rogierhofboer wrote:
| Two options to consider, no personal experience with one of them
| though:
|
| https://frame.work/nl/en
|
| https://nl.starlabs.systems/
| FpUser wrote:
| I have few laptops by Asus and HP. All work like a charm and were
| cheap for what they offer. The oldest ASUS still in use after
| some 10 years. Runs some specialized control applications. Should
| I create a post and title it "ASUS laptops seems to be the only
| viable option these days"
| projektfu wrote:
| I don't know about its longevity but I am quite happy with the
| OLED Asus ZenBook. Pretty screen, fast, etc. If they made one
| in a machined aluminum case instead of sheet aluminum it would
| feel more rigid, that's my only real complaint.
| downrightmike wrote:
| Clearly
| pwason wrote:
| I've bought hundreds of Dell desktops, laptops, servers, etc.,
| over the last 15 years. Rarely have I had any issues.
| rmbyrro wrote:
| I've had great experience with Dell as well.
|
| But I'm reconsidering them from now on. One of my current
| laptops have a weird issue and I tried to purchase extended
| warranty for them to fix it. Only to discover they now only
| service machines up to 3-years old.
| nickmyersdt wrote:
| I bought 30 Lenovo and Dell laptops for new starters at our
| business and have definitely found that, over the last two
| years, both present more issues than I would have expected from
| either. We've stopped buying Lenovo because of the problems our
| users were having, sticking with Dell and trying to weather the
| issues.
| nathanaldensr wrote:
| My family and I avoid this entire problem by simply not buying
| laptops. Our desktop computers--assembled for a fraction of the
| cost of buying a retail laptop and _much_ more powerful--are more
| than serviceable. If you _need_ mobility, then prepare for
| extreme tradeoffs, relatively speaking.
| seltzered_ wrote:
| I went from a 2013 Macbook Pro (died and haven't had time to fix
| it) to an HP elite x2 g4 Tablet running Linux and it's mostly
| what I wanted -
| https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMobileComputers/comments/s6k1qr... .
| It's felt more repairable than a surface pro, and haven't really
| encountered any linux issues.
|
| I say this while having pretty meh experiences with earlier
| generation (~2019 and earlier) HP elite models used for work.
| jordache wrote:
| Apple's service network, via physical stores can not be beat!
|
| I had an issue with my Samsung smart phone at one point. However,
| I couldn't part with the phone for x number of weeks, to send it
| in, for an assessment.
|
| After that, I realized ease of support on iPhone was the biggest
| differentiator between Apple and other brands
| weagle05 wrote:
| I was in the same boat in December. My 2013 MBP was starting to
| show its age and I was hesitant to go with a new MBP because of
| the new processors. I ty
| mikece wrote:
| The author doesn't say what the intended purpose/use of the
| laptop is; it's interesting to me that in the Dell and Lenovo
| lines the author isn't going for the Precision or whatever the
| current version of the Lenovo P50 is (I bought my P50 in August
| 2016 and it's 4-core CPU, 1TB SSD, and 64GB of RAM still gets the
| job done and the hardware just won't quit). The tradeoff of the
| units I mentioned compared to what the author mentioned is
| weight... I get that if you're constantly on the move with your
| machine it's nicer to have a 3 point laptop versus an 8 pound
| laptop but personal preferences being what they are I would
| rather have the more robust hardware and heavier duty system than
| something lighter.
|
| Oh -- and my P50 could apparently withstand waterboarding...
| though I'll just take Louis Rossmann's word for it (and video)
| rather than trying to duplicate the experiment myself:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig3xI8dUdm0
| obscura wrote:
| You've tried two models of two non-Mac brands and one Mac laptop,
| and have concluded that all laptops except Macs "seem" to be
| problematic...
|
| What a ridiculous post.
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| My last Lenovo Thinkpad was an utter disaster. Despite being a
| mid to mid-top of the line notebook for performance it was stuck
| with a critical flaw that frequently throttled the CPU down to
| .39 GHz. Apparently it was a well known bug with the thermal
| control software and the ultimate solution was just to replace it
| with another model from corporate IT.
|
| Edit: The throttling would happen despite the CPU temperature
| being normal for average workloads. It certainly wasn't running
| at full power near 95degC and then slowing down to protect
| itself. We even tried providing increased airflow and a laptop
| cooling stand. It didn't help or make a difference on when it
| would drop down to throttling range. We tried all sorts of
| Windows power management settings, a few Lenovo power management
| apps, updating the firmware, and yet nothing helped.
| uuyi wrote:
| The T series went to shit around the T480. They're just crap
| now.
| Foobar8568 wrote:
| I had a similar issues with my previous client Dell or HP,
| really a disaster...And everyone was hit by that bug, we are
| talking thousand of employees.
| coolhoody wrote:
| I don't get it -- there _is_ a market for a high quality robust
| laptop -- and yet it does not exist.
|
| Why our choice is an ancient refurbished pre-shit ThinkPad or
| Mac? You can't throw a rock without hitting a random developer --
| but they all type on self-destructing shittops... And they type
| emails to customer support instead of coding.
| j_crick wrote:
| > there is a market for a high quality robust laptop -- and yet
| it does not exist
|
| Because that market segment is not large enough to easily
| justify RnDing your own laptop platform, nailing down the finer
| details, upscale that into mass production and then fight
| existing competition, all while keeping the price competitive.
|
| And the rest of the world will do fine with the rest of the
| laptops. Or build desktops for specific tasks :shrug:
| postalrat wrote:
| I dream of a device that's basically a laptop without a screen,
| keyboard, trackpad, etc. Just plug it into a usb-c hub it
| restores everything from where I left off last time. Then once
| I'm done put it in my pocket and go.
|
| Then if I do want a laptop I could buy a chassis with a battery,
| keyboard, trackpad, screen, etc, etc to dock my device above in
| to.
|
| Edit: Seriously considering taking the motherboard out of a steam
| deck and making a custom aluminum enclosure for it that only
| exposes the usb-c port.
| rhn_mk1 wrote:
| Sounds like the Librem 5 would fit your bill. Or some single-
| board computer with USB-C.
| postalrat wrote:
| The librem might work but what can I install on it besides
| their OS? It also has very limited ram/etc.
|
| I've been looking for a single board computer with usb-c
| that's still a reasonable good desktop and haven't found
| anything. The only contender right now is the motherboard
| from a steam deck but im not sure that can be taken out and
| work on it's own.
| ccouzens wrote:
| Sounds like Samsung dex
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_DeX
|
| > Then if I do want a laptop I could buy a chassis with a
| battery, keyboard, trackpad, screen, etc, etc to dock my device
| above in to.
|
| https://nexdock.com/samsung-dex-laptop/
|
| I've never used either (but I'd like to)
| postalrat wrote:
| Kinda like that but I want a machine I'm free to install
| windows/linux/whatever on to.
| dTal wrote:
| The NexDocks are the shell you asked for, not the computer.
| Although they're marketing as being for smartphones, they
| should work with anything that supports USB 3.2 with
| DisplayPort.
| IE6 wrote:
| It doesn't exactly exist in market as a product yet but the
| Intel NUC Laptop Element may promise to do this. From the
| marketing material I have seen it's basically like a cartridge
| that presumably you can slide into any kind of chassis. On the
| go it could be a 15" or 17" laptop chassis being sold along
| side with a Desktop chassis for at home.
|
| I'm also considering the same albeit a bit different - a
| standard NUC or even a Chromebox that I bring to work and use
| at home - all over USBc. And for in-person meetings where I
| need a device I have a thin and light Chromebook in my bag.
| robotresearcher wrote:
| A high end phone has the HW resources to do this already. It
| 'just' needs the software.
|
| I suspect that cloud + browser covers many of the use cases for
| this setup, and perhaps most of the uses people would pay for,
| while being cheaper to deliver.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| This does seem to exist. https://www.magicstickone.com/
|
| Specs aren't great though.
| dTal wrote:
| You could get a GPD Micro PC. It does have a screen, keyboard
| and trackpad, but it's probably about as small as the device
| you were envisioning anyway (certainly smaller than a Steam
| Deck), and in any case I suspect it's a lot more practical to
| have some sort of built-in interface to such a thing, even if
| it's compromised. You could easily remove the screen and/or
| extract the motherboard, but you'd have a much less useful
| device for only a small win in portability. It must also be
| said that it's a deeply fun device.
|
| A USB-C laptop shell that was nothing but a nice screen, a good
| keyboard+trackpad, and a generous battery would indeed be an
| interesting product, and a fantastic companion to either a GPD
| Micro PC or a powerful smartphone. (edit: someone posted about
| the "NexDock" products which appear to be exactly this.
| Hooray!)
| Gollapalli wrote:
| That is actually, genuinely an amazing idea.
|
| I'd steal it, but I doubt I'd have time to seriously work on
| it. So... either make it and sell it to me, or have someone
| else do it.
| kingrazor wrote:
| I've worked in a software validation lab for the past 5 years
| where we have 100s of laptops in use. My bench has 8-10 laptops
| sitting on it at any given time, all of them running 24/7, though
| none of them doing anything particularly demanding. So I have
| what I believe to be some unique experience in this.
|
| All of these laptops are higher end business models from major
| OEMs (Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc...) I was an avid fan of Thinkpad T
| series laptops for quite a while, but in the last couple of years
| I've had a lot of problems with them and am no longer confident
| in that series. I've never been a fan of HP, and have had mixed
| results with their products. Their higher end business stuff is
| decent, but I've had issues here and there. Oddly, despite the
| many horror stories I've heard, the Dell Latitudes I've worked
| with have been the most rock-solid. No swollen batteries, no
| broken displays, no random bricking (happened to two different
| T460Ss I had), no BSODs.
|
| I've personally not had great experiences with Macs in general,
| but have a lot less experience with them than PCs. I have not
| found Macs to be notably better than mid to high end PCs in terms
| of hardware quality.
| stonogo wrote:
| XPS is prosumer grade at best. You need a Precision or Latitude
| product (preferably a Latitude 7xxx) to get a quality product.
| uoaei wrote:
| My Latitude 7370 is hard-capped at 8GB RAM. Because they
| soldered it directly to the motherboard. Real "what the fuck"
| moment, and I am reminded every time of this constraint because
| opening a Slack call freezes my computer for about a minute if
| I commit the heinous crime of leaving my IDE open.
| stonogo wrote:
| Soldered RAM is part of Microsoft's specification for
| Connected/Modern Standby, supposedly because it prevents some
| classes of cold reboot attack on disk encryption. The
| official line from the people who work on the standards (both
| at Intel and Microsoft) is "buy a laptop with the amount of
| RAM you need." I hate it too, but it's not like they're
| pointlessly screwing their customers.
| goosedragons wrote:
| Which conveniently leads to earlier upgrades (everybody but
| the consumer and the environment wins!), and more profit to
| the OEMs in the form of RAM upgrades. Maybe I'm just too
| cynical.
|
| Does anyone even care about connected standby?
| l30n4da5 wrote:
| Been using an HP Envy for the past 4 years. Works great and has a
| lot of the craftmanship that I think is lacking with a lot of
| other laptop models. Only downside is the touchpad is too small,
| but they remedied that with their latest model.
| mindcrime wrote:
| My recently (ish) purchased System76 box "just worked" right out
| of the gate. More so than even I expected, as I had thought I
| would probably replace their PopOS distro with something else.
| But I gave it a whirl, found that it works just fine, and stuck
| with it.
| death_syn wrote:
| I love that it is just Ubuntu underneath, so I just install
| `lubuntu-desktop` and I've got my preferred desktop
| environment, while not losing the benefits of their kernel
| tuning and such.
| rmbyrro wrote:
| I'm considering System76 as well. Mind sharing your experience
| with "bloatness"?
|
| I switched from Ubuntu to Arch some years ago because it was
| getting too bloated for my taste.
|
| How is PopOS on this regard?
| mindcrime wrote:
| I'm afraid I don't know exactly how to quantify that. I also
| don't have much to compare to, as the only other distro I've
| used on a regular basis the last few years was Fedora. I've
| never used Arch, for example.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2022-04-18 23:01 UTC)