[HN Gopher] The Strange Afterlife of Pontius Pilate (2016)
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The Strange Afterlife of Pontius Pilate (2016)
Author : diodorus
Score : 41 points
Date : 2022-04-16 22:03 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.historytoday.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.historytoday.com)
| thinkingemote wrote:
| Today is Easter Sunday, which many HN users may not be aware.
|
| It's the celebration of the resurrection of Jesus Christ after 3
| days from when Pontius Pilate (of the featured article) sentenced
| Jesus to death.
| kasey_junk wrote:
| In western church tradition. In the Eastern church it's next
| week.
| nickpsecurity wrote:
| Quick summary with proof it's true is here for those
| interested:
|
| https://www.gethisword.com
| tsimionescu wrote:
| Note that this is true for the Catholic church and others who
| use their calendar. The Eastern Orthodox church has Easter
| Sunday next week.
|
| Also note that the Eastern Orthodox church is not the church of
| Russia, there are quite a few Orthodox churches who recognize
| each other as having the same creed, but who don't otherwise
| share leadership (with 14 Patriarchs - Constantinople,
| Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Georgia, Cyprus, Bulgaria,
| Serbia, Russia, Greece, Poland, Romania, Albania, and the Czech
| Republic and Slovakia, and a few others).
| pyuser583 wrote:
| It's Palm Sunday in the Orthodox Church, which features
| Pilate heavily.
| MomoXenosaga wrote:
| History is written by the victors. Christians never claimed to be
| objective chroniclers of past events.
| tomohawk wrote:
| For several hundred years, Christians could hardly have been
| considered victors other than in the sense that they survived
| under often severe persecution by pagans and by the the Roman
| state.
|
| A foundational element of Christian faith is the the truth
| claims contained in what is now the Bible. If the Bible is not
| true, then there is no basis for Christian faith.
|
| You can probably read the New Testament within a week without
| trying too hard. If you do, you'll see several claims to be the
| objective truth of the matters it reports on.
| nickpsecurity wrote:
| "The lack of a suitably grisly fate for Pilate put Christian
| apologists in a quandary..."
|
| It looks like they speculated on more than actually read the
| Bible. There is a pattern of God blessing obedience and punishing
| disobedience. This happens on two levels: being held accountable
| for our actions on Judgement Day with eternal consequences
| (definite); what happens in this life leading up to it (varies).
| Psalm 73 and the Prophets (esp Habakkuk) show God in His
| sovereignty lets the wicked succeed to use them as instruments
| for His will. Job shows even the most righteous man on earth
| might suffer if it leads to the greatest good. He's an
| intelligent and sovereign being who dispenses grace (or not) as
| He sees fit.
|
| Just a few verses tell you what matters about Pontius Pilate:
|
| "I tell you that every idle word that men speak, they will give
| account of it in the day of judgment." (Matt. 12:36)
|
| "I saw a great white throne, and him who sat on it... I saw the
| dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and
| they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of
| life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written
| in the books, according to their works... If anyone was not found
| written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."
| (Rev. 20:11-15)
|
| "For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son,
| that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal
| life. For God didn't send his Son into the world to judge the
| world, but that the world should be saved through him. He who
| believes in him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been
| judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the
| one and only Son of God. " (John 3:16-18)
|
| "Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him
| who sent me has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but
| has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24)
|
| "If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in
| your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
| For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified
| (sins paid for), and it is with your mouth that you profess your
| faith and are saved." (Romans 10:9-10 NIV)
|
| God exercising wrath during the earthly life is optional, varies,
| and usually isn't recorded. What is clear are Pilate's options
| when facing Jesus Christ the next time. Pilate is a sinner who
| also killed the Son of God. He'll face judgement for his sins
| with eternal punishment. If could and did repent, Jesus' death
| absorbs God's wrath against him via substitution on the cross
| (Romans 3:21-28). One of those two things happened.
|
| The authors of the Gospels are more interested in what _you_ will
| decide once they 've shared the Gospel with you. I'll link it one
| more time: GetHisWord.com. Before you is life and death.
| Eternally. Choose wisely. Put faith in and surrender your life to
| Jesus Christ. Then, live this one with He who knitted you
| together in the womb, has a plan for your life, and works all
| things for the good of those who walk with Him. I pray more of
| you experience the peace I was given back in 2020 by making that
| decision. It's been an adventure, HN! I struggle but I'm never
| bored!
| mc4ndr3 wrote:
| Pilate wasn't the first or the last to commit evil acts and live
| a dandy life. There is often no justice, either earthly or
| divine.
|
| Christopher Hitchens points out that humans suffered alone among
| the elements, for aeons, before suddenly prophets began preaching
| the "goodness" of sky daddy. The enduring existence of evil
| provides a counterexample.
|
| Either he delights in evil, or he is incompetent to do anything
| about it. There's no justice, there's just us.
|
| It's worth noting that during the time of Jesus (I accept there
| may have been such a historical figure), there were reams and
| reams of prophets. It is remarkable that the state chose to steal
| his thunder by coopting that one. But decades before that
| political decision, Jesus was just another prophet among
| prophets. Nothing in the liturgical account of the trial makes
| sense, given how ordinary the case would have been against the
| wider background of similar cases.
| krapp wrote:
| God(s) made more sense when they were constructed as
| reflections of nature and the human condition, as petty, cruel
| and arbitrary as the mundane aspects they portrayed. No one
| questions the brutality of the God of war, of the fickleness of
| the Goddess of Love.
|
| But the God of the Old Testament being a God of perfect love,
| perfect wisdom and absolute power is so cognitively dissonant
| that an entire heretical religion (Gnostics) could only square
| that circle by claiming that God must have really been the
| actual God's moustache-twirling evil twin all along.
| canjobear wrote:
| The Passion of the Christ does a good job fleshing out the
| character of Pilate and his decisions. It comes across as a
| "banality of evil" type scenario. He sees that he is being forced
| to execute an innocent man, but what is on his mind the most is
| office politics: he needs to Judaea under control so that he
| won't be recalled to Rome and look like a fool. When he asks
| "Quid est veritas?" he's saying that truth doesn't matter, all
| that matters is the politics of the situation. But the question
| also shows that he is deeply uncomfortable with the whole
| situation and doesn't really know what to do.
| trhway wrote:
| Bulgakov's "Master and Margarita" has a worthy take on it too,
| a bit less about politics.
| ncmncm wrote:
| I gather that serious historians consider the mystical writings
| of Paul as primary, followed much later by realization of the
| need to invent a figure of Jesus to have been heard to dictate
| doctrine; and then to invent apostles to have witnessed it; and
| finally invent a timeline of dictation events.
|
| Gospels would then have been variant versions of this timeline,
| preached at different jurisdictions, that then had to all be
| retained as each had already developed a regional constituency,
| with no one of them finally able to dominate.
| throw__away7391 wrote:
| Pilate is a critical figure to the marketing of Christianity to
| the Roman world, as in a couple of weird, awkwardly inserted
| passages completely absolves the Roman government of
| responsibility and solidly lays it all on the Jews.
|
| The TL;DR goes like this:
|
| Pilate: Guys, this Jesus dude is totally innocent.
|
| Jews: Kill him anyway!
|
| Pilate: OK, well how about this--between him and this notorious
| murderer, who should I pardon?
|
| Jews: Release the murderer! Kill Jesus!
|
| Pilate: Gee, ok fine, but this is all on you guys.
|
| Jews: Yes! His blood is on us and our descendants!
|
| Then least there be any doubt, he _literally_ asks for water to
| be brought and "washes his hands" of the decision.
|
| It's absolutely the stupidest thing you'll ever read. It is
| such an obvious after the fact fabrication, it sounds like it
| was written by a child, and yet this story has been used over
| the centuries to justify a great deal of violence towards Jews
| at the hands of Christians.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > Pilate is a critical figure to the marketing of
| Christianity to the Roman world, as in a couple of weird,
| awkwardly inserted passages completely absolves the Roman
| government of responsibility and solidly lays it all on the
| Jews.
|
| It... doesn't though; it's long been the canonical Christian
| illustration of how you _can't_ escape culpability. Even the
| significant subset of Christianity that _does_ treat Pilate
| as an actual saint rather than a villain does so on the basis
| of extrabiblical narratives of a later heel-face turn--
| including, in some versions, martyrdom as a direct
| consequence of his failed attempt to convert Caesar--but
| still sees him as a villain within the boundaries of the
| scriptural account of the Passion.
| Amezarak wrote:
| There's nothing awkward about that "insertion" at all, Jesus
| repeatedly insists over the course of the gospels that the
| Jewish authorities are going to kill him, they actually
| attempt to stone him at multiple points, and he tells lots of
| parables to enrage them that also include this feature, such
| as the parable of the vineyard, where the keepers kill the
| master's son, and then the master comes and kills them all.
| And he accuses them of killing all the other prophets too!
|
| And of course you end up having to change the whole narrative
| to sustain this, too - the charges of blasphemy, the betrayal
| of Judas, etc.
|
| The argument that the passages you cite are insertions just
| makes no sense, they are totally in keeping with all the
| rest. If you want to say it's all inspired anti-semitism,
| fair enough and there's probably some truth to it, but
| there's no reason to think that those passages alone are
| fake. It's probably also worth keeping in mind that the
| people who wrote this were probably also all Jewish.
| throw__away7391 wrote:
| > they actually attempt to stone him at multiple points
|
| Right, so they are also alleged to have killed others, and
| suddenly for Jesus it is claimed that they "don't have the
| authority" and need Pilate to do it.
|
| Written by a child.
| Amezarak wrote:
| The stonings would have been illegal under Roman law and
| would have resulted in severe punishment by the
| authorities.
|
| That's exactly why in any case they would have had to
| obtain approval from/remand the case to Pilate.
|
| We have many other documented such incidents resulting in
| dire consequences. Pilate himself would have been averse
| to allow mob violence not just because it was illegal but
| because allowing such to take place as the Roman in
| charge would have likely merited punishment for him as
| well especially if it got more out of hand.
|
| Josephus is a great source on the historical situation of
| the time period, if you have the time to read the
| Antiquities and the Wars.
| tsimionescu wrote:
| You have to remember that Jesus (at least the character in
| the Bible, but likely the historical figure as well) was
| definitely an extremely anti-establishment figure, as had
| been most of the Prophets of the Old Testament. And the
| Establishment at this time is mostly Jewish authorities, not
| the Roman ones, who had only recently conquered.
|
| This is especially true on the religious side, where the
| Romans would have cared much less about Jesus' views than the
| local authorities. Think about the incident at the Temple,
| the protection of someone collecting wood on the Sabbath, him
| laying his hands on Lazarus, a dead man, his aspersions
| against stoning and many other teachings that went well
| against the fundamentals of Judaism.
|
| To this end, it is not that bizarre to believe that the
| Jewish authorities would have been far more heated against
| Jesus than the Roman authorities would have been, and that
| this is symbolically represented in the story using the
| character of Pilate.
| MomoXenosaga wrote:
| You can only argue religion with atheists. Everyone else is a
| stakeholder. Something someone told me at university and it has
| been remarkably true.
| tomohawk wrote:
| Atheism is itself a religion, and athiests are definitely
| stakeholders.
|
| Atheists have a definite belief about God - He does not
| exist.
|
| Atheists have a definite belief about the afterlife - it does
| not exist.
|
| These are metaphysical beliefs that cannot be proven by
| science or any other methods we know of. They must be taken
| on faith.
|
| Historically, when the communist atheists took over countries
| like Russia, they would hold debates with indigenous
| religious leaders to try to prove the superiority of their
| beliefs.
| pessimizer wrote:
| > Atheism is itself a religion, and athiests are definitely
| stakeholders.
|
| Only if not having anything to drink is a type of soda.
| tomohawk wrote:
| Atheism is not "nothing".
|
| There are definite metaphysical beliefs that make up
| Atheism.
|
| Atheism is not the empty set.
|
| An Atheist doesn't say "I believe in nothing".
| throw0101a wrote:
| > _realization of the need to invent a figure of Jesus_
|
| There seems to be very little doubt in academic circles on the
| whether a Jesus of Nazareth existed:
|
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
|
| What you are espousing is referred to as "Jesus mythicism":
|
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
|
| Tim O'Neill (an atheist) has an entire section of his weblog on
| the topic (and why it's generally non-sense):
|
| * https://historyforatheists.com/jesus-mythicism/
| infradig wrote:
| This Tim O'Neil?
| https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/14324
| anjbe wrote:
| Richard Carrier is about the least disinterested individual
| one could cite on the subject of Jesus mythicism. His
| "celestial Jesus" view requires an ahistorical Jesus, which
| plausibly explains his vociferous attacks against anyone
| holding the mainstream (secular!) view that Jesus was a
| real person.
| DonaldFisk wrote:
| Jesus is mentioned by Roman and Jewish historians.
|
| See: https://strangenotions.com/an-atheist-historian-examines-
| the...
|
| and: https://strangenotions.com/an-atheist-historian-examines-
| the...
|
| and also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
|
| which states: "Virtually all biblical scholars and classical
| historians see the theories of his non-existence as effectively
| refuted"
| throw0101a wrote:
| The two _Strange Notions_ articles are written by Tim O
| 'Neill who has his own site:
|
| * https://historyforatheists.com/jesus-mythicism/
| gregw2 wrote:
| Interesting. But Jesus being invented post-Paul to dictate
| doctrine just doesn't make any sense to me.
|
| First, Jesus and his resurrection is central to Paul's
| teachings, not an optional addon restricted to a few bits of
| text. Second, Paul is much more doctrinaire than Jesus. And
| third, parable-based teaching is probably not an ideal form for
| transmitting doctrine because previous writings weren't
| doctrinaire enough, right?
| Amezarak wrote:
| Yes, this is certainly not anything approaching the consensus
| of "serious historians", this sounds like a crank theory put
| out likely by a single individual who is publishing popular
| books on the subject.
|
| The Pauline epistles are indeed though usually cited as the
| works in the New Testament that were the earliest written
| down, but there's plenty of reason to doubt the academic
| consensus, which has shifted over time, and like all
| historical subjects, somewhat subject to fads. (After all,
| you can't gain notoriety or publish a new paper that simply
| says "yeah, what's written is likely true, or the closest
| approximation to the truth we're likely to ever have, and the
| people who came before me were right.)
|
| Take the Gospel of Mark, usually cited as the earliest
| gospel. One of the strongest held reasons that it's believed
| to have been written after 70 AD is because Jesus prophesies
| what sounds like the Siege of Jerusalem. That's it. It
| certainly doesn't seem crazy even from a one hundred percent
| secular worldview that Jesus correctly or even _accidentally_
| predicted the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans via one
| hundred percent natural means, given the contemporary
| political situation. If anything, you can understand how the
| 1 of 100 prophets who completely by chance made an accurate
| prediction would become more popular afterward.
|
| Or consider the gospel of John - one of the strongest held
| arguments against Johannine authorship is about the only
| biographical information we know about him is that he's a
| fisherman, and the author of John sounds like an intelligent
| Greek writer. That's it. I don't think it's radically
| implausible that he may have been employed at the time as a
| fisherman, and still had an educated background. Scholars
| usually call it "anonymous", even though the author clearly
| focuses on John and refers to him in a special way..and the
| ends the book by claiming that _this is the disciple which
| testifies these things, and wrote these things_. He also
| repeatedly humblebrags that John beat Peter in race...the
| kind of detail that doesn 't seem like a religious community
| would find worth highlighting.
|
| It's also not surprising that different accounts of something
| that occurred over a long timespan contain differences or
| highlight different things. You see this _all the time_ from
| eyewitnesses today and throughout history. I was just reading
| the Landmark Edition of _Anabasis_ that just came out, and
| there 's a whole appendix about how Xenophon and Cyrus's
| doctor narrate a battle differently and make different claims
| about how Cyrus was wounded. But they were both eyewitnesses,
| or the closest to it you could ever hope to get for an event
| that happened 2500 years ago.
| bombcar wrote:
| Reminds me of all the hoorah over Shakespeare- summed up by
| Wodehouse that "Shakespeare wasn't written by Shakespeare
| but someone else with the same name."
| Amezarak wrote:
| Yes, and it looks like the article is the same type of
| thing. The author in the first section presumes that the
| only available historical accounts are all wrong, and
| that the early Christians needed to find a reason why
| Pilate didn't suffer horribly so they redacted the record
| to absolve him. But supposing the only available
| historical accounts are loosely accurate, there was no
| need to absolve him, even assuming the premise that
| anyone who did bad stuff to Jesus theologically and
| psychologically had to meet a Bad End.
|
| ...but uh, there's also no record of what happened to
| Caiaphas in the gospels. Presumably he didn't meet a
| grisly fate either, and he's certainly blamed by the
| gospels much more than Pilate.
|
| You can do anything reasoning backwards from the desired
| conclusions, and that's what a lot of historiography is.
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| How is the new Anabasis?
|
| I love that book but can't recommend it to non nerds
| because it doesn't flow quite right for a modern book.
| Education of Cyrus similarly. I LOVE these books but they
| take a little patience. Ironically, the Socratic Dialogues
| of Xenophon read easier than Plato's.
|
| Now, Golden Ass (Apuleius- trans. Robert Graves) reads like
| a modern book. Amazing.
| Amezarak wrote:
| I haven't actually read the book itself yet, I've just
| been going through the appendices. :) I actually first
| read the Loeb Classics version, which was great
| considering how much a book like that benefits from stuff
| like maps!
|
| The Landmark Edition from what I've skimmed through of
| the actual translation looks like the usual quality fare
| - I always recommend them, though I was a little
| disappointed with their Gallic Wars; Caesar is made a
| little too informal, I wish they had just used an
| existing translation.
|
| I do need to get to the Golden Ass, thanks for the
| reminder, and that'll be the translation I go for based
| on your recommendation. :)
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > I gather that serious historians consider the mystical
| writings of Paul as primary, followed much later by realization
| of the need to invent a figure of Jesus to have been heard to
| dictate doctrine; and then to invent apostles to have witnessed
| it; and finally invent a timeline of dictation events.
|
| Someone, somewhere may believe that, but it certainly isn't a
| shared belief of most serious historians (much less something
| most, or any, serious historians would consider strongly
| supported by historical evidence.)
|
| About the only part of that on which there is broad consensus
| is that, of the writings incorporated into the scripture, the
| Pauline corpus is most likely the earliest to have been written
| in its current form.
| pessimizer wrote:
| It's strange to cast Christian antisemitism as a _result_ of the
| depiction of Pontius Pilate as an innocent stooge (or alternately
| a secret pious Christian doing God 's work in executing Christ.)
| It's not the result, it's the cause. The reason Pilate is painted
| as anything other than guilty is because the Jews must be guilty,
| and the method of the Jew in destroying all that is good is to
| sneakily take advantage of the innocent non-Jew.
|
| Non-Jewish, and later Roman state Christianity, required an
| orthodoxy. As part of that orthodoxy, Jewish Christians had to be
| demonized and/or converted, and Jewish claims that Jesus was not
| the messiah and the messiah had yet to come had to be painted as
| evil. This was one of a hundred ways that was done.
|
| edit: the extratextual antisemitism that largely still exists in
| various Christian orthodoxies (but isn't actually in the books)
| should probably be considered a kind of Christian Talmud.
| Protestantism was partially a reaction motivated by a perception
| that the Roman church had grown soft, and _too lenient_ on the
| Jews. The authoritarianism and corruption of the Catholic church
| was _preventing_ believers from adequately punishing the Jews who
| refused to, or who pretended to, convert.
| Amezarak wrote:
| > The reason Pilate is painted as anything other than guilty is
| because the Jews must be guilty, and the method of the Jew in
| destroying all that is good is to sneakily take advantage of
| the innocent non-Jew.
|
| Do you have any evidence of this?
|
| All the earliest available historical evidence depicts the
| event in essentially the same way, which also makes logical
| sense - why would Pilate otherwise care about some random
| Jewish mystic?
|
| Secondly, it seems like we need to overcome the pretty big
| hurdle of explaining why a population of mostly Jewish people
| who largely continued to identify themselves as Jewish during
| the period in question would write books in a way that painted
| the Jews as guilty because of their _antisemitism_ rather than
| because it was an accurate reflection of what they actually
| believed happened, or, most charitably, because they were
| afraid any anti-Roman sentiment would bring down the hammer.
| throw0101a wrote:
| _Pontius Pilate: the biography of an invented man_ by Ann Wroe is
| an interesting 'biography' on the figure:
|
| > _The foil to Jesus, the defiant antihero of the Easter story,
| mocking, skeptical Pilate is a historical figure who haunts our
| imagination. For some he is a saint, for others the embodiment of
| human weakness, an archetypal politician willing to sacrifice one
| man for the sake of stability. In this dazzlingly conceived
| biography, a finalist for the Samuel Johnson Prize, Ann Wroe
| brings man and myth to life. Working from classical sources, she
| plunges us into the world of biblical Judaea under the reign of
| the erratic and licentious emperor Tiberius and lets us see the
| trial of Jesus, in all its confusion, from the point of view of
| his executioner._
|
| * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/490449.Pontius_Pilate
|
| Tries to reconstruct, using records about the lives other Roman
| governors and notable government types, what kind of person
| Pilate could/may have been.
| dpeck wrote:
| | the defiant antihero of the Easter story
|
| That feels like quite a stretch. Pilate is an important figure
| in the story, but antihero? He largely is the state actor "just
| trying to keep the peace" and giving in to the religious
| leaders to make that happen.
|
| Seems more like a real politik type of character of his day
| than anything to my memory. Keep the tax revenue flowing, don't
| require more legions to be brought in, keep your governorship.
| antognini wrote:
| I've always found it interesting that the Nicene Creed, which
| is recited by millions of Catholics around the globe every
| Sunday, mentions only three people: Jesus, Mary, and Pontius
| Pilate.
| humanrebar wrote:
| Adherents of the Nicene Creed also consider God the Father
| and the Holy Spirit to be people as well.
| tsimionescu wrote:
| I don't think God the Father and the Holy Spirit are
| considered "people" though they are considered "persons".
| "People" seems to imply "human beings" to me, and only
| God the Son is considered to have been a human being by
| most Christians (as Jesus, of course).
| coldtea wrote:
| > _For some he is a saint_
|
| He might be a "realist" politician for some, but he has never
| been considered a saint for anybody. Also neither "antihero",
| nor "defiant". He had the power of life and death, and he
| yielded it to a mob with a shrug, something neither anti-
| heroic, nor defiant.
| kasey_junk wrote:
| The actual article you are commenting on states he was
| sainted by the Coptic church...
| pyuser583 wrote:
| There's an extra-scriptural tradition Pilate's wife
| converted to Christianity, and then converted her husband.
|
| No creed celebrates Pilate as Saint for his actions in
| scriptures.
| ggm wrote:
| Just as the tally sticks of english tax records since 1066 wound
| up first stashed under Westminster hall and then burned in the
| parliamentary heating boiler fires, I like to imagine some late
| Roman functionary looking at all the internal staff tribunal
| records muttering _there 's possibly a thesis in this on failure
| rates in early Roman provincial management_ and them flinging
| them into a scroll pulping machine turning them into wallpaper,
| coffin liners, paper mache busts of Hadrian for kiddies...
|
| There must have been a tonne of records, of which less than 1%
| has survived. Arcanum, incanabula, stiffening for the spines of
| book binding, the bits of ancient paper which survive defy the
| reality of Marie Kondo through the ages.
|
| "This record of pontius pilates tribunal for stuffing up as
| governor does not spark joy" _riiiiip_
| baud147258 wrote:
| I would have though that the writing material at the time
| (especially in Judea) would have been papyrus and not
| parchment. Which makes the archive conservation situation even
| worse, as papyrus don't keep well outside of arid climate.
| bjt2n3904 wrote:
| Marking to read later. I've always enjoyed reading, "What Pilate
| said to Gaius one night".
|
| Edit: Read it. Interesting to hear the historical traditions
| about Pilate and his guilt. Here's the link to the story I
| mentioned.
|
| https://aletheasmind.wordpress.com/2019/08/03/what-pilate-sa...
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(page generated 2022-04-17 23:02 UTC)