[HN Gopher] Apple unveils the best photos from the Shot on iPhon...
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       Apple unveils the best photos from the Shot on iPhone Macro
       Challenge
        
       Author : todsacerdoti
       Score  : 226 points
       Date   : 2022-04-13 13:12 UTC (9 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.apple.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.apple.com)
        
       | jclardy wrote:
       | On the leaf image: "The reason I like this so much is the obvious
       | layering. The depth of field created with the iPhone here very
       | clearly shows you what the focal point is, and represents a
       | fantastic example of how good the software is at completely
       | isolating the foreground, leaving the background blurry. A
       | perfect example of computational depth of field." -- Peter
       | McKinnon
       | 
       | Is this correct? From what I've shot in macro on my DSLR, the
       | blur is natural because the focus plane is so thin. I realize the
       | phone has a much smaller sensor, but is the blur in macro mode
       | computational? I thought that effect was only applied in portrait
       | mode shots.
        
         | formerly_proven wrote:
         | At that magnification I would expect some amount of blur, and
         | the bokeh in the shot is very nervous, so I'd say it's mostly
         | optical. Phone camera lenses generally have very poor bokeh,
         | though you can rarely see much of it.
        
           | uuyi wrote:
           | Yep. The iPhone 13 Pro bokeh is miserably bad. On point
           | sources, you're lucky if you can get any out of it and if you
           | do it's got a hole in the middle.
           | 
           | Example here: https://imgur.com/a/cPG3YSP
        
         | dylan604 wrote:
         | At this point, I don't know how to apply any natural
         | photography rules to camera phone results. There is so much
         | processing going on that it is hard to even try to do things
         | the "old" way. From the skin softening, to the pushing of the
         | contrast/color balance/saturation, to the correcting of content
         | replacing a person's face with a leaf type examples, etc, I
         | really don't want to use the damn camera at all from a purist
         | point of view.
        
           | jitl wrote:
           | The leaf was actually a leaf. https://twitter.com/mitchcohen/
           | status/1476951534160257026?s=...
           | 
           | Using Halide or similar with RAW substantially improves your
           | control.
        
           | astrange wrote:
           | It doesn't actually do any of those, people just hear
           | "computational photography" and make up things in their
           | heads.
           | 
           | "Real digital cameras" also have computational photography
           | a.k.a. sharpening, auto exposure and auto white balance.
        
         | Arkadin wrote:
         | I believe every photo on iPhone 13 pro is enhanced.
         | 
         | https://www.newyorker.com/culture/infinite-scroll/have-iphon...
         | 
         | You're right though that this isn't a "perfect example of
         | computational depth of field" as the background leaf looks far
         | enough away where you could have achieved the effect optically
         | on iPhone sensor with right aperature. That being said the
         | blurring does look unnatural to me as it is not even across the
         | background leaf despite similar distance from lens. It's not
         | clear cut though.
        
           | camillomiller wrote:
           | This is the stupidest, laziest, and less informed article
           | I've ever read from the New Yorker. I honestly don't know how
           | it got published.
        
           | JoBrad wrote:
           | You can shoot RAW photos on the iPhone. Don't think most
           | laypeople do, though.
        
       | 58x14 wrote:
       | If I counted correctly, 8/10 of the selected submissions
       | specifically mention the iPhone and the macro feature by name.
       | Same with the comments on different submissions.
       | 
       | Okay, okay, I know, it's Apple, this is a marketing campaign.
       | 
       | I guess next time, I'm going to take a photo of the contents of
       | my fridge, with the caption:
       | 
       | "Every morning, when I check my new iPhone 14 Pro Max Plus, I'm
       | filled with a sense of inspiration. The new Wake Up feature
       | really gives me a boost of energy, even on cloudy days like when
       | I took this photo of an avocado. The deep, dark green of the rind
       | reminds me of the striking new Alpine Green color of my new
       | iPhone 14 Pro Max Plus, and the texture couldn't be more vivid
       | than shot by the new Macro+ Holographic Lens."
        
         | smoldesu wrote:
         | "It's your first day of school Jimmy, show me that smile! You
         | know it's going to come out great on the iPhone 16 Ultra Max,
         | thanks to it's advanced computational photography and new
         | Neural Merge technology! I can even switch it over to the new
         | Pro Portrait mode for a better digital Bokeh on the bus."
         | 
         | - A future excerpt from the Federighi household, probably
        
         | some_random wrote:
         | It is literally called the "Shot on iPhone Macro Challenge".
        
         | autoexec wrote:
         | I didn't even read the text. I just noticed that plants and
         | water seem to be huge winners. The one that wasn't a plant or
         | water was "sea glass" so... still water. Next time try flowers
         | and water.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | hnlmorg wrote:
         | > _If I counted correctly, 8 /10 of the selected submissions
         | specifically mention the iPhone and the macro feature by name.
         | Same with the comments on different submissions_
         | 
         | The contest was only open to photos taken from an iPhone. This
         | is mentioned in the heading, sub-heading and opening paragraph.
        
       | drexlspivey wrote:
       | Pretty crazy that you can get this kind of shots with a mobile
       | tbh. Until very recently you would require a DSLR with a bulky
       | specialized lens. For reference this is what a typical macro lens
       | looks like https://images.app.goo.gl/nf5keSiugxyb2pmA6
        
         | skhr0680 wrote:
         | A $20 extension tube or reversing ring will turn even any plain
         | 50mm prime into a fine macro lens. There really isn't an upper
         | limit on lens hugeness or cost for people chasing that last 1%
         | of performance.
        
           | kens wrote:
           | I bought a cheap DSLR extension tube and a $15 ring light on
           | eBay to do macro photography of electronic components. They
           | work _much_ better than I expected for the price. I 'm sure
           | an expensive macro lens would be better but this setup works
           | fine for me.
        
             | m463 wrote:
             | My take on macro lenses is that they are sort of bulky
             | lenses designed with the extension tube built in, so you
             | can go from infinity to 1:1 or similar.
        
         | shagie wrote:
         | The issue is the working distance.
         | 
         | You'll note that the photographer there is shooing with a lens
         | that has a fairly long barrel. For the Nikkor 105mm macro lens
         | - https://coinimaging.com/nikon_105vr.html
         | 
         | At 1:1, there's 15.3 cm between the front of the lens and the
         | subject.
         | 
         | But if you're shooting with a rather short lens (e.g. those in
         | the camera of a phone) then the working distance is very close.
         | 
         | This becomes important important when photographing insects
         | (you'll note there are no photos of insects in that collection)
         | 
         | Some other lenses and their working distances -
         | https://www.kielia.de/photography/calculator/working-distanc...
         | 
         | The Olympus 30mm shooting as a macro lens has a working
         | distance of 16mm (quite different than the 153mm of the Nikkor
         | 105mm macro lens).
         | 
         | The "getting close" also impacts the "how do you light it" and
         | keeping the subject out of the shadow of the camera.
        
           | jeffbee wrote:
           | The practical working distance is why I like the four-thirds
           | system for macro. With a 50mm 1:2 macro lens on a micro43
           | body you can work at a distance of 10-25cm from the lens
           | front, so you can sneak up on bugs, and on this format you
           | can get a useful depth of field with more than a few atoms in
           | focus like you'd get on a larger format.
        
           | matwood wrote:
           | > This becomes important important when photographing insects
           | (you'll note there are no photos of insects in that
           | collection)
           | 
           | I've gotten some interesting insect shots using Nikon 70-300
           | f/4.5-5.6G ED from a short distance.
           | 
           | I think people sometimes get too caught up with the gear
           | instead of trying out what they have.
        
           | AuryGlenz wrote:
           | I would say most really good insect macro images are done
           | with dead insects anyways, as they need to be stacked to get
           | a decent depth of field.
           | 
           | The "how to light it" is probably a bigger point. Even with a
           | ~100mm lens, dealing with the lens' shadow can be annoying.
        
             | m463 wrote:
             | why wouldn't a future phone camera macro lens have a ring
             | light?
        
       | tomduncalf wrote:
       | The macro capability is a really fun addition to the iPhone. It
       | can be hard to get a good shot though, quite often focus is off -
       | the best way I've found is to use the Halide app, then you can
       | enable macro mode and "focus peaking", which will highlight the
       | in-focus area with a colour. This means that a) you are
       | definitely in macro mode all the time, and b) the focus is fixed
       | and you adjust what is in focus by moving the phone around until
       | the right bit is highlighted. I have also had good results with
       | the default camera though, but it's harder to control.
       | 
       | If you look at the photos close up they don't look amazingly
       | sharp, and the "blur" around the edges looks a bit odd (not sure
       | if this is just a macro lens thing or something iPhone specific),
       | but regardless, it's a pretty awesome capability to have in your
       | pocket at all times!
        
         | dylan604 wrote:
         | Focusing for macro is definitely a painstaking process. That's
         | why they invented equipment to help like focus rails[0]. At
         | macro sizes, the focus ring on the lens is just not going to
         | help get that final focus. Instead, the camera is physically
         | moved closer/further from the subject to get final focus. With
         | the super shallow depth of field, millimeters matter so these
         | rails allow you to make very tiny adjustments.
         | 
         | [0]https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1532833-REG/dot_line_
         | ...
        
           | m463 wrote:
           | I would imagine focus stacking would be a future enhancement,
           | like HDR has stacked images for a long time
        
             | dylan604 wrote:
             | Focus stacking is a style. It doesn't necessarily make it
             | better outright. Someone might not want the look of a wider
             | depth of field.
             | 
             | HDR is also a style, and at least they made it optional and
             | not forced on every single image. Hopefully any focus
             | stacking will be optional as well.
        
       | treerunner wrote:
       | I get the feeling that iOS runs photos through a neural net
       | filter by default. It would be nice to know exactly what is
       | behind any given shot, both my personal images and those of a
       | collection/competition like this. Thus armed with knowledge, only
       | then can we truly judge for ourselves.
        
         | criddell wrote:
         | What difference would it make? The computation part of iPhone
         | photography is an essential part of it.
        
       | dogman144 wrote:
       | Not to be rude hopefully, but those all look like stock high
       | quality desktop backgrounds or 1:1 copies of an iphone add.
       | Images seem less about artistic meaning and more about coloring
       | and related implications about an iphone.
        
       | FollowingTheDao wrote:
       | Matt Stoller takes the best Macro shots of Apple:
       | 
       | https://twitter.com/matthewstoller/status/151394228852275200...
       | 
       | Why do you all freely spread this one sided corporate propaganda?
        
         | Bud wrote:
         | If you have ten axes to grind about stuff Apple did years ago
         | to build its manufacturing capacity, that's cool and all, but
         | it has zero place in this thread.
        
           | FollowingTheDao wrote:
           | Years ago? Try last year!
           | 
           | https://www.theinformation.com/articles/seven-apple-
           | supplier...
           | 
           | And it's sick you think all they did is OK since they needed
           | to "build its manufacturing capacity" and you forget it all
           | the minute they show you a pretty photograph.
           | 
           | And it is also sick that you think sharing the reality about
           | Apple means "I have an axe to grind", and not that I am just
           | a person who cares about humanity.
        
             | Bud wrote:
             | You're out of line. Think more carefully before referring
             | to others as "sick".
             | 
             | You haven't the slightest notion of what I "think" or what
             | I have or have not "forgotten" or what I think is or is not
             | "ok". I'll thank you to cease pretending otherwise.
             | 
             | You clearly and obviously have an axe to grind, you have no
             | objectivity whatsoever, and the stuff you're trying to
             | inject into this thread simply has no place here. None at
             | all.
        
       | moron4hire wrote:
       | I had a friend who was creating a cardboard miniature of a museum
       | exhibit he was designing and he wanted to take photos of it "on
       | the ground floor" to give a pre-visualization of what it would
       | look like. So he pulled out his DSLR and was woefully
       | disappointed that all his photos came out looking like photos of
       | miniatures, even if he got really close in.
       | 
       | I told him to switch to his smartphone. He'd be able to get in
       | closer. The scale of the lens more closely matched the scale of
       | the scene, so the relative angles between foreground and
       | background objects would more closely match our expectations of
       | being a full-sized scene. It came out great. Yes, we had to dump
       | light on the thing to get the images to not be grainy. But the
       | images had more of an "on the ground" feel.
       | 
       | Because of that (and my own experiences with smartphone
       | photography), I feel like these images all fail to use the
       | hardware effectively to do something unique.
       | 
       | Some others have talked about the differences in lenses and
       | sensor sizes and all that, that makes high-quality smartphone
       | photography so much harder than SLR photography. Yes, that is
       | true, for the sorts of images that you would take with an SLR.
       | But that's not the only kind of images you can take.
       | 
       | The popularity of the SLR is both its biggest advantage and its
       | biggest curse. It's advantageous because there are TONS of
       | accessories and guides and examples, etc. ad nauseum. It's a
       | curse because it sucks all the air out of the room in regards to
       | other types of cameras. There are so many, many different types
       | of cameras, and they all make unique shots that you really can't
       | replicate with the other types of cameras.
       | 
       | Few people have really explored what that means for smartphone
       | cameras. It's clear that it would need to be used in ways that
       | are unique to the device. Not just "it's the best camera you have
       | with you, because your other camera is too heavy to always have
       | on you." But stuff like, "because the lens is so tiny, we can
       | squeeze shots out of tiny holes that would block a normal SLR".
       | Stuff like, "this camera is a Star Trek tricorder connected to a
       | global information network." I rarely ever see that.
        
       | MaXtreeM wrote:
       | Slight OT: I am thinking about buying a camera. I have never had
       | a good camera system nor I ever had a flagship phone
       | (iPhone/Samsung/Pixel). I though a mirrorless with good lenses
       | would be a good starting choice. I don't want to do professional
       | photography, I just want to shoot holidays in nature and my
       | upcoming baby. I did some internet research and was blown away
       | when people compare photos from best phones to photos from
       | mirrorless/DSLR cameras. My impression now after some research is
       | that you can get better looking images from camera if you are
       | willing to do some post-processing in Lightroom, etc. If you
       | compare raw images then a lot of times people tend to say that
       | the one taken on a phone looks better (I know it might not look
       | more "real", just that people like it more). Would you agree that
       | buying a camera is worth only if you are willing to do a lot of
       | preparation and post processing but if not just buy a phone with
       | all the advantages it brings? Is it even worth buying a camera in
       | 2022 if you are targeting a price of about what top model iPhone
       | costs?
       | 
       | Let's leave pure love of photography aside for the sake of
       | argument.
        
         | stu2b50 wrote:
         | If it's for holidays and kids, I'd say stick with a top of the
         | line phone, then think about getting a discrete camera for edge
         | cases (if you have that kind of money)
         | 
         | The best camera is the one you have available. Kids are mobile
         | and wild and often do memorable things at unexpected time.
         | Whipping out your iPhone and taking a video or picture is easy
         | and pretty much always capable.
         | 
         | Phone cameras, with much processing magic, do produce pretty
         | good pictures. And pretty good pictures beat non existent
         | excellent pictures because you didn't lug your camera around.
        
         | matwood wrote:
         | It depends. I've only bought more gear when I had an exact
         | need. My first camera was a D40, and I used it for years until
         | it simply stopped working. My next camera was a D7100 that
         | added features I knew I wanted after using the D40 for years. I
         | still use this camera. Recently I bought a Z5 because I wanted
         | FF and to move to mirrorless. My lenses followed similar
         | trajectories - want to take bird pictures, need a zoom.
         | 
         | All the time I also mostly had the latest iPhone.
         | 
         | The iPhone takes great pictures with little work in many
         | (most?) situations.
         | 
         | Is it worth buying a non-phone camera in 2022? I think if you
         | really like taking pictures and are bumping into phone
         | limitations, sure. But, if I started today, I would get a
         | flagship phone first and grow from there.
        
       | mmackh wrote:
       | I do wonder what the subjects in these photos would look like
       | with different cameras and lens combinations. Everything about
       | those shots scream great composition, but held back by the
       | technical aspects: blurry and distorted.
        
       | renewiltord wrote:
       | The iPhone's macro photography is best for the fact that I can
       | take pictures of labels and stuff for later. Something that was
       | made for pretty stuff that nonetheless works quite well for my
       | mundane use-case. I love technology like this.
        
       | Kalanos wrote:
       | the resolution on these is terrible
        
       | J_cst wrote:
       | Close up pictures of flowers and plants. Vivid colours. Extremely
       | boring. That's it, saved you a click. You can thank me later no
       | prob.
       | 
       | j/k
        
       | qq66 wrote:
       | The macro lens is the reason I bought the iPhone 13 Pro and the
       | extreme sizem weight, and poor ergonomics of the phone are why I
       | returned it. I'd buy an iPhone the dimensions of an iPhone Mini
       | (but say, twice as thick) with the fancy cameras, LiDAR, etc.
        
       | wonderbore wrote:
        
       | Saint_Genet wrote:
       | Technically impressive but visually uninteresting just about sums
       | it up.
        
       | xwdv wrote:
       | Is this the climax of smartphone macrophotography? How much
       | better could it get from here, seems impossible with the given
       | constraints.
        
         | michelb wrote:
         | Although not a macro-related problem perse, these look great at
         | the size they are taken, zooming in or enlarging them a little
         | bit shows some of the flaws (overly processed, computational
         | errors).
         | 
         | These pictures have been made by people who have photography as
         | a serious hobby and know what they are doing, hence the well-
         | lit and positioned scenes. I have not been able to make a
         | picture like these without a lot of effort. But it is possible.
         | 
         | That said, it's a pretty incredible feature so far!
        
       | yalogin wrote:
       | All of them are extreme close up shots. I am guessing those are
       | the ones that ended up being interesting may be?
        
         | jeffbee wrote:
         | That's what macrophotography means.
        
           | yalogin wrote:
           | TIL. Am not into photography as is obvious
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | thekoma wrote:
       | People seem to always be impressed with close-up images of
       | plants.
        
         | irae wrote:
         | Humans can learn a lot from observing the world around them. We
         | do this a lot as kids. So maybe seeing up-close details we
         | either can't see with the naked eye or never payed attention
         | before can be interesting. At least to me, it feels to add
         | completeness to my observation of what nature is capable of,
         | and this enhances my conception of how much I was missing and
         | it is now "complete" to me.
        
           | whistlerbrk wrote:
           | Agree with this.
           | 
           | My children are so close to the ground they can observe
           | things I just walk by. They are constantly pointing out to me
           | things they find beautiful in their tiny details. Admittedly
           | I've trained them to be highly observant but they've outdone
           | me in a short time.
        
       | asdfasgasdgasdg wrote:
       | The trick to getting the best out of camera phones is to shore up
       | their weaknesses with external devices. Cell phone cameras are
       | multiple stops slower than "real" cameras (i.e. they take in 1/4
       | to 1/8th as much light). So you add light to the scene to shore
       | up that weakness.
       | 
       | Most of these pictures were probably lit very carefully with high
       | quality lights, or else were taken in bright daylight, and the
       | phone was probably held in a high quality tripod. It is also
       | likely that hundreds of dollars worth of software was used to
       | edit each of these images.
       | 
       | It's pretty cool that you can get such nice results from a phone.
       | But you'd probably have an easier time of it on a five year old
       | aps-c camera with a macro lens, to say nothing of modern 35mm
       | cameras.
       | 
       | These images are somewhat analogous to the videos of fake
       | hamburgers that fast food companies use to sell their product.
       | That is, the physical conditions where this picture was taken did
       | exist. It's not totally CG. But the images are designed to make
       | you think that you can get results that practically are out of
       | reach for most of the people looking at the photos.
       | 
       | Still knowing that can also allow you to make better cell phone
       | pictures by taking into account those weaknesses when you're
       | taking pictures. There are valuable techniques to learn from
       | these images, aside from the fact that they are all high quality
       | art.
        
         | Karawebnetwork wrote:
         | > It's pretty cool that you can get such nice results from a
         | phone. But you'd probably have an easier time of it on a five
         | year old aps-c camera with a macro lens, to say nothing of
         | modern 35mm cameras.
         | 
         | Sure, but how often do you have them on your person in time to
         | take candid photos?
         | 
         | I am in a lot of entomology and myrmecology online groups and
         | people are able to take clear photos of insects that look like
         | professional macro photos using their phones. Before that, only
         | a handful of pro/powerusers were able to share this kind of
         | quality.
         | 
         | When asked what camera he used, one popular youtuber (I cannot
         | remember the exact context) explained that while expensive
         | cameras are better on paper he often relies on his iPhone + a
         | cheap ring light clipped on it. Animals often act in
         | interesting ways when you are not ready for it. The ease of
         | using the device that is in your pocket often outweight the
         | potential increase in quality that would come from setting up a
         | studio level setup. The best picture is the one you are able to
         | take.
        
           | subhro wrote:
           | > Sure, but how often do you have them on your person in time
           | to take candid photos?
           | 
           | Totally bad argument in justifying phone cameras. If you are
           | having the expectation of getting photos of similar quality
           | as shown on the page, my question is, how often do you have a
           | high quality ring light on your person along with a stable
           | tripod?
        
             | Karawebnetwork wrote:
             | A lot of reptiles, fishes and insects are in vivariums that
             | already provide a good light source. For wild animals, you
             | are fine without a light since they are mostly outdoor and
             | unless you're planning for it chances are that you'll
             | stumble on them during daylight.
             | 
             | Personally, I have a lot of ring lights because beauty and
             | makeup brands give them for free with a lot of products.
             | 
             | But even without all of this, you can get great footage and
             | photos.
             | 
             | Take a look at this spider that was walking around my sink
             | for example.
             | 
             | The phone (pixel 3, already quite aged) did not have a lot
             | of trouble to focus on it even if we are talking about a
             | small spider that is only a few milimiter in size.
             | 
             | It's a video so focus comes and goes but the parts where
             | the focus is set on the spider are quite clear (ignoring
             | the upload compression).
             | 
             | I am no artist and was focusing more on the spider's
             | behavior. Someone who is an artist could have snapped great
             | macros at that moment.
             | 
             | https://photos.app.goo.gl/z2RALoGeXiAo6uHG6
             | 
             | Another example is this queen ant when it was in it's
             | founding stage. The nanitics (first workers) are small even
             | when it comes to ant scale. You can see them in great
             | details and can even see the translucent parts of their
             | gaster with the sugar water inside.
             | 
             | Again, I focused on the behavior more than the art. But an
             | artist could have taken a photo instead of a video with
             | great results.
             | 
             | https://photos.app.goo.gl/dmzMXLqG5v1cfFKx9
             | 
             | Both of those were candid moments that I happened to snap
             | because I had my phone in my pocket while my 4k camera and
             | my canon reflex were in their box in my desk.
        
             | kemayo wrote:
             | It's a great argument for camera phones, because you don't
             | need added lighting or stabilization to get _decent_ shots.
             | The pictures you take are better than the ones you never
             | took, and if you take a lot of pictures you 're more likely
             | to stumble onto a great one even as a total amateur.
             | 
             | I think the pictures on that page are aspirational, to be
             | sure... but my own experience with this camera system
             | suggest that they're not out of reach.
             | 
             | Here's one of the first macro pictures I took with an
             | iPhone 13 Pro a day or two after I got it, completely
             | without stabilization, on a momentary stop while I was
             | walking my dog: https://imgur.com/uux8RNS (I'm not saying
             | I'm a good photographer; this is just for technical
             | purposes. It's also unedited.)
             | 
             | Compare that to the "leaf illumination" picture in the
             | article. The professional's picture is noticeably better,
             | of course. But it's more a matter of framing and choice of
             | subject than any hardware limitation.
        
           | asdfasgasdgasdg wrote:
           | Well, I often have a "real" camera on my person, because I
           | like cameras. It definitely gets me better results than when
           | I use my phone camera. That's just my taste. I'm certainly
           | not saying your average joe would be best-served by going out
           | and buying a GFX-100S.
           | 
           | I'm not sure what YouTuber you're referring to, but most
           | popular photography YouTubers mostly use real cameras still.
           | Occasionally they'll do a gimmick video where they use a
           | phone, but it's the exception, not the rule.
        
             | Karawebnetwork wrote:
             | For sure, if I am on a trip I'll have my reflex big bulky
             | camera around my neck. But day to day, commuting to work,
             | at a friend's, etc., all I have is my phone.
        
         | camillomiller wrote:
         | Dude, have you ever even used an iPhone 13 Pro? Believe me, the
         | macros you take with this phones are stunning. And lighting and
         | stabilization are a determining factor for macro even with
         | cameras, actually even more so for cameras than phones.
         | 
         | These pictures btw were not taken this way. The reason I know
         | is because I talked to the Italian winner and Apple about
         | exactly that.
         | 
         | Check this one out:
         | https://www.icloud.com/iclouddrive/0b1PRNfudllgp0q1LyuHrW1OQ...
         | 
         | Taken at dusk. No other lights.
        
         | thr0wawayf00 wrote:
         | > But you'd probably have an easier time of it on a five year
         | old aps-c camera with a macro lens, to say nothing of modern
         | cameras.
         | 
         | That's probably true but as a casual hobbyist, it's so much
         | easier to justify spending $1k on a phone and a few hundred on
         | apps than getting buying a legit macro camera setup, especially
         | used camera equipment.
         | 
         | I was frustrated by the macro limitations of the iPhone 13 pro
         | and started perusing for macro camera setups and totally balked
         | at the prices. It made more sense to hold out for another major
         | camera spec bump in the next generation of phones (which is
         | rumored).
        
           | sudosysgen wrote:
           | You can buy a competent macro lens for around 200$ (the Canon
           | EF 100mm macro), and camera to slap it on for around 400$.
        
           | LegitShady wrote:
           | >few hundred on apps
           | 
           | I don't even understand what you think you're going to buy
           | that will make you a good macro photographer for hundreds of
           | dollars. Hundreds on apps instead of dedicated macro
           | hardware? I can't imagine that will do anything but waste
           | hundreds of dollars.
        
             | thr0wawayf00 wrote:
             | Hence why I'm a casual hobbyist, I'm not trying to win
             | competitions or anything here.
        
             | asdfasgasdgasdg wrote:
             | What I was personally referring to when I mentioned
             | "software" is a photo editing application like Photoshop,
             | Lightroom, DxO Photolab, etc. The subscriptions/purchase
             | prices of these type of software is $200+. There are free
             | software versions of these apps but most photographers do
             | not use them.
        
               | matwood wrote:
               | PS + LR CC comes in a photography bundle for $10/month.
               | 
               | https://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop-
               | lightroom/compare-p...
               | 
               | I've tried a lot of other DAM + editing software and keep
               | coming back to LR. YMMV.
        
               | LegitShady wrote:
               | You're going to need such software whether you use an
               | iphone or a DSLR. There's no difference in cost except
               | the hardware.
        
               | asdfasgasdgasdg wrote:
               | Sorry, to be extra clear, my point is that you will not
               | get these results without such software, because photos
               | almost universally require editing in order to look their
               | best. But my belief is that Apple, with their "Shot on
               | iPhone" marketing, is trying to convey that you will get
               | these results straight out of the camera. This is
               | unlikely to actually be the case. That's the sum of my
               | point w.r.t. software.
        
               | LegitShady wrote:
               | You can get 98% of the same capability with much cheaper
               | software - you don't need spend several hundred on
               | software (affinity photos does focus stacking raws, for
               | example). But you're right the best looking photos are
               | usually processed somehow.
        
               | Tagbert wrote:
               | and you can do most of the photo edits with software like
               | Affinity Photo or Pixelmator Pro without the "hundreds"
               | price tag.
        
           | asdfasgasdgasdg wrote:
           | I don't know what your budget is, but it is not _that_
           | expensive to get into a  "real" macro setup, at least
           | compared to the cost of a new phone. Try this on for size:
           | 
           | https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1485795-REG/7artisans.
           | ..
           | 
           | https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=a6100&_sacat=.
           | ..
           | 
           | https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1059024-REG/manfrotto.
           | ..
           | 
           | https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1459178-REG/viltrox_v.
           | ..
           | 
           | These items come out to a total of about $1,000 and will
           | vastly outperform any iPhone. Note that I am not recommending
           | this particular setup as I am not a macro photographer, I
           | just wanted to demonstrate what's possible. I'm also not
           | saying you're wrong to wait for a better cell phone camera.
           | Your preferences are your own and there is nothing wrong with
           | them. Just trying to provide some information.
        
             | dr_zoidberg wrote:
             | Compact cameras (under $500) usually have great macro
             | lenses too, though you miss the flexibility of being able
             | to change the lens. I've owned for quite a while a Micro
             | Four Thirds camera from Olympus and that's a very good spot
             | to be a hobbyist: not too expensive, but can do "pro
             | things" like changing lenses, shoots raw, has a horseshoe
             | socket, etc. Of course, the quality is not the same as a
             | full frame camera, but then again, I'm not a pro :)
        
               | nl wrote:
               | The A6100 (linked above) isn't a full-frame camera
               | either.
               | 
               | It uses a APS-C sensor (dimensions of 23.5 x 15.6 mm).
               | The Micro Four Thirds sensor is 17.3 mm x 13.0 mm
               | 
               | Full Frame is 24 mm x 36 mm.
        
         | duxup wrote:
         | Understanding the strengths and weaknesses of your equipment is
         | pretty much the secret to ... everything, including knowing the
         | internal software results you get ;)
         | 
         | When photography was a bigger hobby for me I had an old digital
         | camera that had a great lens, but tiny sensor and could be slow
         | exposure wise. It did have a great set of built in color modes
         | that I had trouble emulating in software ( and didn't want to
         | spend time on that a great deal ) so I kept around and got a
         | cheap-o mono pod and blamo it's slow nature was less of an
         | issue.
         | 
         | Folks with fancy new equipment seemed to struggle emulating
         | what I got with relative ease.
         | 
         | Now I probably couldn't emulate what they did in many
         | situations, but I didn't try either, I knew what that equipment
         | could do and it worked.
         | 
         | The world of photography is a funky world of pixel peepers,
         | TRUE---ish advice, and folks throwing tons of money at
         | equipment and software and hours of editing and ... just
         | sticking with some specific equipment for a while / learning
         | it's nature can save you A LOT of time and money.
        
         | PragmaticPulp wrote:
         | Great advice. It would be fun to see a behind-the-scenes of how
         | some of these photos were taken
         | 
         | > But you'd probably have an easier time of it on a five year
         | old aps-c camera with a macro lens, to say nothing of modern
         | 35mm cameras.
         | 
         | The iPhone camera really is fantastic for what it is (economies
         | of scale are an amazing thing) but you're not wrong. Doing this
         | sort of photography work on an iPhone is more about the
         | challenge than the capabilities.
         | 
         | One of the interesting things about photography is that so many
         | capable cameras and lenses have been produced over the past
         | couple decades that you can stop by eBay and pick up some truly
         | capable gear for relatively cheap if you do your research. It's
         | tempting to get pulled into the world of modern full-frame
         | cameras and the latest glass, but the truth is that an older
         | mirrorless camera combined with some known-good old glass will
         | produce amazing photos.
        
           | formerly_proven wrote:
           | This is even true for digital gear. At base ISO, cameras like
           | a D7100/7200 have as good image quality as it gets for that
           | class, and you can pick those up for cheap. Even fairly high-
           | end, high-resolution full-frame cameras can be had for less
           | than 500 quid (e.g. D800) and those still have outstanding
           | image quality; there really wasn't a whole lot of major
           | improvements in image quality in the last ten years when you
           | control the light (i.e. don't need high ISO).
           | 
           | Things get expensive if you want...
           | 
           | ... best low-noise performance (needs sensor from the last
           | ~five years, older stuff usually has color shifts and other
           | issues which are not easy to fix)
           | 
           | ... video
           | 
           | ... mirrorless
           | 
           | ... fast AF (especially if you also want mirrorless)
           | 
           | ... all of the above
        
             | kuschku wrote:
             | Not even necessarily - the Sony a6300 retails around 300
             | bucks used, which gives you 4K30 or 2K120 video at 8bit.
             | It's an APS-C mirrorless with fast AF, and its low-noise
             | performance is (although a few years out of date) excellent
             | for its price.
             | 
             | And in real-life circumstances it's better than a Google
             | Pixel.
        
         | foldr wrote:
         | > (i.e. they take in 1/4 to 1/8th as much light)
         | 
         | Not sure if this is true for macro. For a given angle of view,
         | the amount of light collected is determined by the absolute
         | diameter of the aperture (as opposed to the f number). It's
         | rarely practical to use a very wide aperture for macro
         | photography on a DSLR for depth of field reasons. People do all
         | sorts of unnecessarily complex calculations with crop factors,
         | but in this scenario all you have to think about is the
         | diameter of the aperture in mm. The phone has an aperture of
         | perhaps around 3-4mm. You're unlikely to use a wider aperture
         | than that shooting macro on APS-C or full frame.
        
         | dylan604 wrote:
         | All Macro photography requires extra light, it's not just
         | anything to do specific to cell phones. That's why there are so
         | many flash rigs designed for this.
         | 
         | Also, the iPhone 13 camera has ridiculously fast lenses[0]:
         | Pro 12MP camera system: Telephoto, Wide, and Ultra Wide cameras
         | Telephoto: f/2.8 aperture            Wide: f/1.5 aperture
         | Ultra Wide: f/1.8 aperture and 120deg field of view
         | 
         | If you search for lenses for "real" cameras with those
         | apertures and focal lengths, you'll find 4 digit price tags for
         | each one.
         | 
         | Sounds like you need some more research into macrophotography
         | 
         | [0]https://www.apple.com/iphone-13-pro/specs/
        
           | twic wrote:
           | Numerical aperture alone does not tell you anything about the
           | amount of light gathered. The product of aperture and sensor
           | size does. Phone cameras still have much smaller sensors than
           | DSLRs.
           | 
           | Your advice to learn more about photography certainly seems
           | good.
        
             | twic wrote:
             | The Hubble Space Telescope has an aperture of a pathetic
             | f/24 [1]. I guess they should just fire an iPhone up there
             | instead, huh.
             | 
             | [1] SS5.2.2 in https://asd.gsfc.nasa.gov/archive/hubble/a_p
             | df/news/SM2-Medi...
        
           | SingularCrane wrote:
           | f stops need to be adjusted for sensor size [0]. The iPhone
           | 13 Pro cameras all have and equivalent f stop > f/8 [1]
           | 
           | [0]https://photographylife.com/equivalence-also-includes-
           | apertu...
           | [1]https://www.dpreview.com/articles/6780391159/all-apple-
           | iphon...
        
             | esteth wrote:
             | stops only need to be adjusted for total photons gathered,
             | not for photons per unit square
        
               | Ma8ee wrote:
               | Yes, and a much smaller sensor will of course gather much
               | less light.
        
               | foldr wrote:
               | For the same aperture, sure. But you are not going to be
               | shooting macro photos at f1.5 on full frame (for depth of
               | field reasons alone). For real world macro photography
               | you'd typically be stopping down _at least_ to f8 on a
               | full frame camera. At that point the DSLR has a
               | considerably smaller advantage in terms of the total
               | amount of light gathered.
               | 
               | One thing that people often miss is that you can think
               | about all of this just in terms of the absolute diameter
               | of the aperture (not the f number, just the diameter in
               | mm). For a given angle of view, the diameter of the
               | aperture determines how much light you gather. The
               | question is simply whether a photographer using a DSLR is
               | going to be able to use an aperture that is significantly
               | wider (in mm) than the ~4mm aperture of a phone camera.
               | For depth of field reasons, it's unlikely that they will
               | be able to do so.
        
               | Ma8ee wrote:
               | Why wouldn't you need to stop down similarly on a phone
               | camera?
        
               | foldr wrote:
               | Because depth of field depends on focal length as well as
               | f number. Or to put it another way, it depends on the
               | absolute diameter of the aperture, not the ratio of the
               | focal length to the aperture diameter (= the f number).
               | 
               | (Also, of course, you can't stop down on a phone camera
               | as it has a fixed aperture.)
        
           | freedomben wrote:
           | Just a meta-comment, but your reply was really good until the
           | last sentence.
           | 
           | > _Sounds like you need some more research into
           | macrophotography_
           | 
           | That undermined your otherwise very factual
           | rebuttal/clarification because it seems like at best an
           | impossible standard (everybody could always use more research
           | into anything), and at worst a "you don't know as much as me"
           | veiled in professionalism/passive aggressiveness. The
           | interpretation is up to the reader (some of whom will be
           | charitable in their interpretation, others will not).
           | 
           | To be clear I'm not accusing you of "the worst" (I have no
           | idea what was in your heart/mind and I don't presume to
           | guess), I'm executing on a personal goal to try and help
           | elevate conversations through useful/constructive feedback.
           | Also I'm not presuming that this comment/feedback is useful
           | or constructive as it may not be, but I hope that it is
           | because that's my goal.
        
             | nathias wrote:
             | I know you think what you're doing is "elevating"
             | conversations, but ... "calling out" people for the
             | slightest bit of negativity is an extremely toxic behavior.
             | Quality discourse requires negativity and fosters a healthy
             | span of tolerance for it. Your interpretation is also very
             | narrow and passive aggressive itself, to me it seems
             | completely neutral that in a case when someone has a strong
             | opinion based on ignorance, you remind them of their
             | ignorance - not just for people reading it but for their
             | own sake.
        
               | buttersbrian wrote:
               | Disagree. Attack the arguments, not the person.
               | 
               | Why did that person feel the need to attack the poster?
               | What did they gain from it? How did it help the argument?
               | 
               | I don't think there's a single benefit from that line
               | other than to be self-serving statement that says "i know
               | more than you" when their rebuttal did that more
               | effectively while staying on topic.
        
             | thrashh wrote:
             | I find that last line perfectly justified.
             | 
             | OP's post was incredibly dismissive and incorrect but was
             | written as if it was from an expert.
             | 
             | It's textbook misinformation as far as I am concerned.
        
               | asdfasgasdgasdg wrote:
               | My post was correct and the person who was responding to
               | me is incorrect. I did not mean to sound dismissive -- I
               | intentionally put multiple paragraphs congratulating the
               | artists and praising what can be done with cell phones in
               | order to try to avoid that look. But it is important to
               | realize that these awards are _marketing_ and marketing
               | needs to be interrogated, IMO.
        
               | jarcoal wrote:
               | It's not really about being justified, it's about being
               | gentler with people. We don't have to jump all over each
               | other, there is another way.
        
               | dymk wrote:
               | I think OP will live.
        
               | lolsal wrote:
               | When given the choice, choose compassion.
        
               | dymk wrote:
               | I think the reply was plenty respectful, and the whining
               | to the contrary is just a veiled attempt to derail the
               | conversation.
        
               | YPPH wrote:
               | Should that be the standard we hold ourselves to?
        
             | tshaddox wrote:
             | I interpreted the phrase as meaning something more like
             | "when you make claims about the fundamentals of
             | macrophotography with such a confident, authoritative tone,
             | those claims should be backed by more research than you
             | seem to have done."
        
             | sudosysgen wrote:
             | The rebuttal is actually incorrect and suffers from many
             | misconceptions typical in photography. This makes the
             | condescension much worse, because whoever wrote that did
             | not live up to their own standard.
        
             | [deleted]
        
             | dr_dshiv wrote:
             | I support your goal! Maybe there is a way to state this in
             | fewer words more often.
        
             | Karawebnetwork wrote:
             | It really depends on the purposes of the comment.
             | 
             | Direct responses can be intended to educate the person they
             | are responding to, but they can also be intended to warn
             | people around.
             | 
             | Does this person want to get a point across with empathy or
             | do they want to discredit the comment to future readers to
             | avoid the circulation of false information?
        
           | BenFranklin100 wrote:
           | Stepping past the arrogance for a second, there's more to
           | macro photography than f#. A big factor is the working
           | distance to the object. Not only is this important for
           | skittish live subjects, it's also important for static
           | subjects for the practical reason that the extra distance
           | provides space for proper lighting equipment. A good used
           | Nikon macro lens can be had for less than a grand and a DX
           | SLR body for less than $300. That's cheaper than the price I
           | paid for my iPhone 13 Pro, which has proven a bit of a
           | disappointment for macro work.
           | 
           | Further, the wider open the lens, the more shallow the depth
           | of field, which is already quite shallow in macro work.
           | Having the space for proper lighting can allow one to stop
           | the lens down and capture more parts of the image in focus.
           | F# is a secondary consideration as macro often works best at
           | f/8 or f/11.
        
             | foldr wrote:
             | >F# is a secondary consideration as macro often works best
             | at f/8 or f/11.
             | 
             | At typical full frame focal lengths. With the shorter focal
             | length of an iPhone you get much more depth of field for a
             | given aperture.
        
               | BenFranklin100 wrote:
               | Good point.
               | 
               | Lens to object distance is still an important issue in
               | practice however.
        
           | Ma8ee wrote:
           | Lenses aren't that expensive, especially not prime lenses.
           | You get a very decent Canon brand 50mm f/1.8 for $125 new. So
           | you could easily get each of these lenses in the lower
           | hundreds.
           | 
           | https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/SLR-Camera-
           | Lenses/ci/274/...
        
           | kuschku wrote:
           | > If you search for lenses for "real" cameras with those
           | apertures and focal lengths, you'll find 4 digit price tags
           | for each one.
           | 
           | The aperture is relative to the diameter of the first lens
           | element. So you can't just compare these values directly.
        
             | _ph_ wrote:
             | Sure you can. The f-stop is the ratio of focal length to
             | aperture diameter. A aperture of f/4 means, the aperture is
             | one fourth of the focal length. At the same f-stop, you get
             | the same light density on the sensor surface.
             | 
             | The catch is: a phone has a much smaller sensor, so at the
             | same f-stop, across the whole sensor less light is gathered
             | and consequently, you have a weaker signal.
        
               | skylanh wrote:
               | Wait until you start looking at transmission values...
               | 
               | f-stop doesn't mean much other than the maximum that the
               | aperture for that lens can open.
               | 
               | It doesn't indicate lens or element quality, or
               | aberrations. There's a reason that pixel peeping, gear
               | games, and reviewers are so prevalent in high end
               | photography.
               | 
               | As a simple extension to this, most of my lenses work
               | better a few stops before maximum f-stop.
               | 
               | So, yes, but no.
        
               | _ph_ wrote:
               | You were talking about the light being gathered by the
               | lens. That is mostly determined by the f-stop.
               | Technically it is the t-stop, but they should be
               | reasonably close together not to make a huge difference.
               | Quite the contrary, as the phone lens has less elements
               | than some modern camera lens designs, the phone might
               | suffer less from the difference than the camera lens.
               | 
               | The aspects you are now referring to are about the lens
               | quality. Yes, I would expect a real camera lens to be
               | much better than the lens of an iPhone. There is no doubt
               | about that. But in the posting I answered to, you spoke
               | about the comparability of aperture values.
        
               | NAG3LT wrote:
               | In practice, light gathering correlates to F-stop quite
               | well on most normal modern lenses, transmission losses
               | are very low. The main exceptions are deliberately
               | apodized lenses, which have considerably transmission
               | losses wide open.
               | 
               | For the rest - yeah, f# is just one of important
               | specifications.
        
           | canbus wrote:
           | f-stops are relative to the size of the glass + sensor. They
           | aren't equivalent to f1.5-2.8 on an APSC or full-frame
           | sensor.
        
           | asdfasgasdgasdg wrote:
           | f-numbers do not have the same meaning across different sized
           | sensors. For example, f/1.5 on the iPhone is equivalent to
           | f/8.2 on a 35mm camera. This is pretty slow by the standards
           | of full frame lenses, and as you can see in my other post, it
           | is not expensive to acquire much better lenses than this that
           | will achieve much better results with less effort.
           | 
           | See the chart on the first page of this article:
           | https://www.dpreview.com/articles/6780391159/all-apple-
           | iphon...
           | 
           | For a detailed explanation of how to compare f-numbers across
           | cameras have a look at this article:
           | https://photographylife.com/equivalence-also-includes-
           | apertu...
        
             | foldr wrote:
             | F numbers have exactly the same meaning across different
             | sized sensors: the ratio of the focal length to the
             | aperture diameter. The size of the sensor does not even
             | enter into the definition of the f number.
             | 
             | >For example, f/1.5 on the iPhone is equivalent to f/8.2 on
             | a 35mm camera
             | 
             | This is a meaningless statement unless you specify what
             | sort of equivalence you're talking about. I assume you mean
             | to say that they're equivalent in terms of depth of field
             | and in terms of the total amount of light gathered for a
             | given angle of view. This, however, just goes to show that
             | the 35mm camera doesn't have much of an advantage for macro
             | photography. If the 35mm camera has to stop down at least
             | to f8 (which it probably will, to get sufficient depth of
             | field) then it won't gather any more light than the phone.
             | 
             | The basic point here is that for a given angle of view, you
             | can only gather more light than the iPhone if the iPhone
             | has depth of field to spare. Otherwise you can only gather
             | more light than the iPhone by sacrificing depth of field.
             | This is because both the total amount of light gathered
             | (for a given angle of view) and the depth of field (for a
             | given angle of view) are determined by the absolute
             | diameter of the aperture.
        
           | sudosysgen wrote:
           | You're telling people to do more research but don't
           | understand how photography in general works.
           | 
           | The speed of the lens is not the main factor. A Micro4/3 lens
           | at f/2 is cheaper than a full frame lens at f/2, which is
           | cheaper than a medium format in turn. The iPhone's sensors
           | are much smaller still than FF.
           | 
           | The lenses on the iPhone are equivalent to some of the
           | cheapest lenses in any given system.
           | 
           | Indeed, a comparable system would be the 10-18mm EF-S plus
           | whatever kit lens you have.
           | 
           | Talking about relative aperture and angle of view at the same
           | time is incredibly misleading. If you want to talk about
           | angle of view, you need to use absolute aperture.
        
         | ghostly_s wrote:
         | Most of the photos Apple highlights in this campaign are also
         | shot with very expensive external lenses.
        
           | camillomiller wrote:
           | This is false FUD.
        
           | galaktus wrote:
           | Why would you make such false claims?
        
           | Bud wrote:
           | False. Not a single one of them used any external lens at
           | all, according to the page itself. This may be true for the
           | campaign as a whole, but it's not true for the page under
           | discussion in this thread.
        
         | balls187 wrote:
         | my Iphone 13 Pro has very (very) impressive low light
         | performance.
        
         | gnicholas wrote:
         | > _the phone was probably held in a high quality tripod_
         | 
         | Why is a high-quality tripod needed? You can just set the
         | camera to be on a timer so that it's not shaking (from you
         | touching the shutter button) when it captures the photo. I
         | think it's also possible to use an Apple Watch to trigger the
         | shutter.
         | 
         | > _It is also likely that hundreds of dollars worth of software
         | was used to edit each of these images._
         | 
         | Do photo contests typically allow entrants to heavily edit
         | photos?
        
           | mym1990 wrote:
           | "Do photo contests typically allow entrants to heavily edit
           | photos?"
           | 
           | This is going to depend on the genre of the contest, but for
           | most contest types outside of the journalistic realm editing
           | style will very much be a part of the process. You will
           | typically submit the final print and no one will know what
           | the original picture was. There are some contests out there
           | with some pretty outrageous editing though!
        
           | rococode wrote:
           | I'm no expert but I think these shots often use slower
           | shutter speeds, for example 0.5s instead of 0.01s. This
           | increases the amount of light, but any movement that happens
           | while the shutter is open will cause blur. Movement causes
           | blur at fast shutter speeds too, but it's less noticeable
           | because obviously you can move much less in 0.01s than you
           | can in 0.5s.
        
             | gnicholas wrote:
             | I get that, but even a cheap tripod (I use a Joby) will
             | hold a phone still for .5 seconds, won't it? You can put
             | the phone on a 10 second delay, so any movement generated
             | by you touching the shutter button would have dissipated by
             | the time the photo is taken.
        
           | infinityio wrote:
           | > Do photo contests typically allow entrants to heavily edit
           | photos?
           | 
           | To my knowledge - yes
        
         | dietrichepp wrote:
         | I disagree that bigger cameras are better for macrophotography.
         | I say this because of the physics of how light works in
         | macrophotography, which matches my experience doing
         | macrophotography with larger cameras (6x7cm and 4x5").
         | 
         | The long story short is that reducing the aperture has two
         | effects on image sharpness. Smaller apertures increase the
         | depth of field, bringing more of your scene into focus. Smaller
         | apertures also introduce diffusion, which makes the whole image
         | softer. This tradeoff means that there is a medium aperture
         | which makes your image as sharp as possible.
         | 
         | Photographing people with a 35mm camera, the aperture which
         | maximizes sharpness is often achieved with apertures somewhere
         | around f/5.6 or f/8. It is advantageous to use a 35mm camera
         | because the larger sensor size can reveal more detail and
         | capture more light. 35mm also gives you access to larger
         | apertures and those nice, blurry backgrounds.
         | 
         | In macrophotography, large cameras just aren't as advantageous.
         | The small apertures that you typically use will produce soft
         | images, and the soft images can be captured well enough on a
         | small sensor. Small cameras give you very blurry backgrounds to
         | begin with, so you wouldn't choose a large camera to blur the
         | background. Additionally, small cameras require less lens
         | movement, proportional to their size, to focus at the short
         | distances required for macrophotography.
         | 
         | I do some macrophotography with my RZ67. Mostly pictures of
         | flowers. It's fun, but I know that it would be much more
         | convenient to use a smaller camera, and I wouldn't be
         | sacrificing image quality. One of the big reasons I use the
         | RZ67 is because it uses a bellows to focus, and the bellows is
         | long enough that you can focus very close. However, there's a
         | lower limit to the size of the subjects I can comfortably
         | photograph, and if I were serious about macrophotography, I
         | would use a smaller camera.
         | 
         | Summary: Large cameras are better at taking pictures of large
         | things, small cameras are better at taking pictures of small
         | things.
        
           | asdfasgasdgasdg wrote:
           | I appreciate your perspective, but most folks who are at the
           | top of the macrophotography game use 35mm cameras and macro
           | lenses. It's not actually the case that smaller sensors are
           | net beneficial for taking macro photographs, otherwise we'd
           | see a different trend. Even if these folks were just looking
           | for the "real camera" ergonomics, they'd be using m43, but
           | few of them do. (Perhaps you get some advantage of more depth
           | of field, but 35mm camera lenses can be stopped down to
           | achieve the same effect, when it is desired.)
           | 
           | There are exceptions, as my sibling comment points out, but
           | if you go to a list of the top macro photographers and check
           | each one out, 90+% of them will be using 35mm cameras.
        
             | mark-r wrote:
             | You're just looking in the wrong places. Check this out:
             | https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4438556
        
               | asdfasgasdgasdg wrote:
               | I'm not surprised that there exist folks doing macro work
               | on M43. And I'm not surprised that you can find such
               | people in the corresponding forum on dpreview.com. :) I
               | was not making a universal claim of nonexistence.
        
               | dietrichepp wrote:
               | I'm always floored by the amazing results you can get
               | from focus stacking.
        
             | dietrichepp wrote:
             | People use the equipment they like with good ergonomics--
             | equipment they are familiar with. Very few people
             | understand their equipment well enough and understand the
             | physics well enough to justify their choices from a purely
             | technical image-quality standpoint, and very few people
             | actually try out different equipment to see what the
             | results are (which might cost thousands of dollars, just
             | for starters).
             | 
             | Instead, most people come up with all sorts of
             | justifications for why their equipment is the best. And
             | that's ok. In the end, photographers take good pictures and
             | we are happy. There is no underlying need for photographers
             | to use the "best" equipment available to them, and in
             | actual practice, you will find photos in galleries taken
             | using a camera phone or a cheap plastic Holga, hung right
             | next to pictures taken on a 4x5" that look immaculate.
             | 
             | > Perhaps you get some advantage of more depth of field,
             | but 35mm camera lenses can be stopped down to achieve the
             | same effect, when it is desired.
             | 
             | The premise I'm operating under is that you'll make, more
             | or less, the same artistic choices with different
             | equipment. In other words, if you shoot micro four thirds
             | and switch to 35mm, you double the f-number (e.g. go from
             | f/11 to f/22), get roughly the same depth of field, roughly
             | the same field of view, roughly the same image sharpness.
             | 
             | There are two problems here. One problem is that the image
             | is not particularly sharp to begin with, so any extra
             | resolution provided by a better sensor is wasted. The
             | second problem is that larger lenses are operated farther
             | from their ideal focal distances.
             | 
             | The formula for focal distance of an ideal lens is
             | 
             | 1/f = 1/d1 + 1/d2,
             | 
             | where f is the focal length, d1 is the subject distance,
             | and d2 is the distance to the image. Normally, d1 >> d2,
             | and you can consider a 50mm lens on a 35mm camera as the
             | same as a 25mm lens on micro four thirds. For
             | macrophotography, d1 [?] d2, and changing the sensor size
             | has a radical impact on how far a lens must be moved to
             | remain in focus in relative terms. That is, when you double
             | the sensor size, you have to more than double the distance
             | you move the lens.
             | 
             | This means that larger lenses are operating farther outside
             | their ideal focal distances, and this has a negative impact
             | on image sharpness. Macro lenses are specifically designed
             | to be operated in this range, but the fact remains, larger
             | lenses are still operating in a more extreme regime
             | compared to smaller lenses.
             | 
             | You get pretty good results by just copying what most
             | people use, but the fact than 90+% of people are using
             | equipment X does not mean that equipment X is ideal. Plenty
             | of musicians have completely incorrect notions about what
             | kind of impact various choices they make about their gear
             | has on how they sound, too--these beliefs often
             | _completely_ fail to hold up under any reasonable amount of
             | scrutiny.
             | 
             | Photographers commonly believe that larger lenses take
             | better pictures. Reality is more complicated--there are a
             | ton of tradeoffs both with lens design from a practical
             | perspective and tradeoffs involving the underlying physics
             | that make the situation much more complicated.
        
           | petepete wrote:
           | This lines up with what Don Don Komarechka says on the
           | subject. His images are fantastic and he shoots micro 4/3.
           | 
           | https://www.donkom.ca
        
         | HidyBush wrote:
         | >Cell phone cameras are multiple stops slower than "real"
         | cameras (i.e. they take in 1/4 to 1/8th as much light).
         | 
         | this is not true. the iPhone camera's sensor receives the same
         | density of light from its f/1.8 lens than any old traditional
         | camera using an f/1.8 lens. this means the stops are identical.
         | of course the total amount of light that passes through the
         | iPhone's lens is much smaller than a normal camera's, but that
         | has no bearing on the photo's exposure. the real difference
         | rests in the signal to noise ratio, which is determined by
         | pixel density, and that's why smartphone photos are incredibly
         | noisy.
        
           | camillomiller wrote:
           | This
        
             | twoWhlsGud wrote:
             | That: https://www.dpreview.com/articles/2666934640/what-is-
             | equival...
        
         | galaktus wrote:
         | > Most of these pictures were probably lit very carefully with
         | high quality lights, or else were taken in bright daylight, and
         | the phone was probably held in a high quality tripod. It is
         | also likely that hundreds of dollars worth of software was used
         | to edit each of these images.
         | 
         | Like they do with "professional" cameras as well.
        
           | camillomiller wrote:
           | Actually way less than with pro cameras
        
         | mrbonehead wrote:
        
         | jacobolus wrote:
         | > _"Most of these pictures were probably lit very carefully
         | with high quality lights, or else were taken in bright daylight
         | [...] hundreds of dollars worth of software was used to edit
         | [...] analogous to the videos of fake hamburgers"_
         | 
         | You don't have to speculate. Most of the photographers directly
         | tell you how these were set up:
         | 
         | > _love going on early morning walks with my iPhone 13 Pro. The
         | 'golden hour' brings the best out of nature_
         | 
         | > _I've used a spot studio light on the lily with a dark
         | background._
         | 
         | > _This one instance was during the sliver of golden hour when
         | the sun is shining directly into my window, illuminating all of
         | the tiny cells in each leaf._
         | 
         | > _I used two items that I found in my kitchen fridge: a
         | strawberry and a can of soda. I placed a clear vase on my
         | kitchen counter, poured the soda into the vase, and used a
         | piece of black paper as the background. I then dropped the
         | strawberry in the vase of soda and waited. Slowly, bubbles
         | began to form on the surface of the strawberry, and its texture
         | was completely transformed._
         | 
         | > _This image was taken along the edge of Riverside Park in
         | Manhattan while on a morning walk with our puppy this winter._
         | 
         | > _This tiny, shimmering liquid jewel is delicately nestled at
         | the base of a leaf after a tropical storm, almost imperceptible
         | to the human eye._
         | 
         | > _The photo was taken when my 3-year-old son discovered the
         | blossom of the tulip at home. I then appreciated the flower
         | with my son and took out my iPhone, trying to capture the
         | moment when the sun kissed the flower, which created a perfect
         | shadow at the petals. As I moved my iPhone closer to the
         | flower, it automatically turned on macro mode,_
         | 
         | It is entirely possible for someone on a tight budget to make
         | their own studio-like lighting, and there are good photo
         | editing tools available for free. Saying <<don't bother to be
         | inspired by these lovely smartphone photos because some
         | professionals spend thousands of dollars on lighting and
         | Photoshop>> is lazy cynical negativity in the extreme. And
         | <<people who win photography contests are typically more
         | careful tool users than an average person with no experience>>
         | is hardly a deep insight.
        
           | bee_rider wrote:
           | I am a little suspicious of some of these, though. For
           | example in the last one, it seems a bit weird that his son
           | discovered a tulip, and it just happened to be directly in
           | front of a perfectly black background (?). I suspect some of
           | the stories have been tweaked to play up the convenience of
           | having the phone handy. But they are still very nice shots!
        
           | matwood wrote:
           | I love the descriptions b/c they explain the 'art' behind
           | photo taking. It's people being creative, which is really
           | what photos should be about.
        
         | barrell wrote:
         | I got the canon 100L macro lens last spring for my 6D mark II
         | (after drooling over it for literally 10 years), and ended up
         | getting the iPhone 13 Pro when it came out. So I'm a macro noob
         | with no other equipment.
         | 
         | Can confirm, everything out of my dslr + macro lens comes out
         | _perfect_. It 's ridiculous how hard it is to take a bad
         | picture with those. Fluorescent lights, cloudy days, handheld,
         | they're all perfect.
         | 
         | That being said I've definitely used and shared more images
         | from my iPhone macro mode. There have been a bunch of misfires,
         | lighting is hard, sharpness is not there across the board - but
         | it definitely scratches that itch and I find myself using my
         | macro lens less.
         | 
         | Although after writing this I fully expect to run around my
         | house for an hour next time the sun is out to take some macro
         | shots with the macro lens :D
         | 
         | TL;DR - even as a pixel peeper the convenience of having macro
         | on the phone puts dust on my dslr macro lens.
        
       | dotancohen wrote:
       | I hope that you like flowers. All but two of the photos are
       | leaves or petals.
        
       | atultw wrote:
       | "A Drop of Freedom" reminds me of Apple's old flower wallpapers
       | with the black background
        
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