[HN Gopher] Psychedelic frees up depressed brain, study shows
___________________________________________________________________
Psychedelic frees up depressed brain, study shows
Author : bencollier49
Score : 112 points
Date : 2022-04-11 16:37 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bbc.co.uk)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bbc.co.uk)
| jotm wrote:
| Psilocybin has been in the news lately, but I'd say many drugs
| that cause a significant, immediate and forceful shift in
| thinking can work for depression.
|
| From my own experience making and taking a simple drug, just
| experiencing good thoughts once in a while kind of pulls me out
| of persistent/chronic depression. I know I'm getting better when
| I start thinking "wow, trying to kill myself was actually
| horrifying yo!".
|
| The trick, imo, is to take something that is guaranteed to make
| you _think_ happy /different thoughts (not only _feel_ good).
| Which is why I think there 's better options than psychedelics
| that can cause bad trips, at least for _some types of
| depression_. Which is also why cannabis can work but is very hit
| or miss - it having short or long term negative effects is very
| likely.
|
| Now if only it wasn't so fucking hard and risky to create and use
| your own medication. Alcohol is perfectly legal and absolutely
| life destroying. But God forbid you even _possess_ something
| illegal - they 'll make sure you don't end your years of
| suffering. Oh the Hugh manatee.
| nudpiedo wrote:
| Every few weeks articles like this one on the topic of depression
| and psychedelics keep coming. They repeat themselves.
|
| I wonder whether someone wants to promote the topic or just get
| upvotes for later lobbying some other posts on HN.
| huachimingo wrote:
| They should test induced psychedelic-like experiencies without
| substances too, like meditiation or trance with music...
| Uptrenda wrote:
| I can't imagine they would be able to 'blind' their experiments
| for participants though? I mean, when you start tripping balls it
| becomes clear you got given the LSD and not something else...
| Unless they use like sub-threshold / micro-doses.
| zwieback wrote:
| I've heard this many times now: psilocybin and related drugs
| anecdotally are breakthrough treatments for some patients. Does
| that mean the "brain gets rewired" or is the experience so
| profound that it changes the patient's outlook?
|
| Either way it's great for the people that had positive
| experiences but also sounds scary in general, what if the
| profound change flips the other way?
| neves wrote:
| Michael Pollan book "How to change your mind" is excellent. He
| give very good explanations about it.
| whalesalad wrote:
| Both. Neurogenesis occurs at the physical layer but there can
| also be a shift in userland based on your experience.
| deepsun wrote:
| > drug could treat depression
|
| Weren't researches done way back in 60-70s?
| after_care wrote:
| 60s and 70s research does not meet modern standards. The
| validity of almost all medical and psychological research done
| in the era is very questionable. Some research done in this
| time was very good, but with psychedelics we are really
| starting back from square 1 because we've just begun
| researching it in earnest.
|
| tl;dr If you're in medical or psychological fields and the only
| empirical evidence you have to back up a claim is from the 60s
| you are on shaky ground and need to collect more data.
| marc_io wrote:
| Yes, but they became illegal in 1971, before researchers had a
| chance to further explore the action of psychedelics.
| grenoire wrote:
| As this area was gaining legitimacy in the late 70s, Reagan and
| the War on Drugs happened, which made legally obtaining the
| substances difficult, and research funding dried out.
| flente wrote:
| The backlash actually started sooner than that, and largely
| due to the excesses of Tim Leary, et al. Michael Pollan's
| book "How To Change Your Mind" covers it in detail.
|
| A great shame, because psychedelic therapy has so much
| potential. Just a single data point, but my life was turned
| around by some formational experiences on LSD and Psilocybin.
| Glad to see research heating up in this area again.
| petesergeant wrote:
| > In the first, everyone received psilocybin; and in the second -
| a randomised controlled trial - some were given the drug while
| others were given a different antidepressant
|
| How does a control group work here? It's (presumably?) pretty
| clear to the people who got the mushrooms that they got something
| pretty unusual and powerful, where nobody gets that kind of jazz
| from anti-depressants. I feel like that would stomp all over
| trying to narrow down the placebo effect
| zapataband1 wrote:
| The second trial was to compare escitalophram with psylocibin.
| Both groups were given psilocybin -> then brain scan. Then
| after a few weeks one group given escitalophram and one group
| given the placebo -> then brain scan. From what I can tell
| briefly reading the abstract.
| fsckboy wrote:
| _How does a control group work here? It 's (presumably?) pretty
| clear to the people who got the mushrooms_
|
| the study compares effects both reported and measured.
|
| double blind is important to not introduce "outside"
| influences, but it's not intended that the subject not
| experience what they take, quite the opposite, that's what is
| being measured.
|
| If the people who took it report dizziness (aha!), but the
| people who took the placebo also report dizziness (doh), then
| that's not evidence that the drug produces dizziness.
| mwattsun wrote:
| > Patients with depression are warned not to take psilocybin on
| their own.
|
| I understand this is a standard disclaimer, but I thought I'd
| throw in that the drug depressed persons should really avoid
| taking alone is alcohol, especially in large quantities
| jrapdx3 wrote:
| As a physician with a practice in the realm of behavioral health
| it's been fascinating to witness the development of approaches to
| treatment-resistant depression using hallucinogenic agents.
|
| First out of the gate was ketamine (now on the market as
| esketamine), and currently psilocybin is being studied. It's
| showing promising results, however, the details re: dosing and
| adverse effects are still being worked out.
|
| It's an inescapable fact: _ALL drugs produce side effects_ (at
| least in some recipients). Who will or won 't tolerate a given
| drug is mostly hard to predict beyond the overall odds.
|
| Everyone in my field has seen individuals who have experienced
| serious harm due to use of hallucinogens including psilocybin.
| IMO using this class of drugs shouldn't be considered trivial.
| Sure, a lot of people have taken such "illicit" drugs without
| lasting problems, but response is a stochastic function. Odds of
| harm are no doubt small but as use spreads to a larger pool odds
| are adverse reactions will emerge.
|
| Of course people with serious depression already have major brain
| dysfunction and likely vulnerable to exacerbated adverse effects.
| Compared to normal functioning there's sharply decreased room for
| error.
|
| In medicine the primary rule is "above all do no harm". Absent
| sufficient data backing particular practices, choosing to step
| into new territory requires moving forward with great caution and
| care.
| recuter wrote:
| Life itself is fatal. Nothing is without risk.
|
| I'm not a health professional but I think medicine for the
| mentally ill is clearly overprescribed and this seems to be
| mostly a US thing. Although sadly, it is spreading.
|
| Times past stepping into a therapists office you'd be sent to
| get zapped for being a gay man or a hysterical woman and
| prescribed all manner of questionable treatments from
| cigarettes to most recently opioids. I heard those things might
| be bad for you too.
|
| The advice "we don't have data you should do nothing" is
| essentially a no-op. Useless, but you're fulfilling your
| primary rule, fair enough.
|
| If the advice is "we don't have data on psychedelics, they have
| an unknown risk factor. But we do have data on this pill with a
| known factor, so you should take it instead".. well. We're all
| adults.
| ProjectArcturis wrote:
| Yes, fascinating to watch, but as usual the hype outpaces the
| science. Two major issues not discussed in the article: 1. How
| do you do a placebo-controlled trial? All subjects will know
| the difference between psilocybin and placebo. And there are
| often huge placebo effects in depression trials. 2. No one has
| done a controlled trial with more than one dose. The best RCT
| so far, done by Compass, only followed patients up for 12
| weeks. By that time there was still a numerical difference
| between drug and placebo, but it was narrowing and no longer
| significant. Extrapolating from the available data, the drug
| and placebo groups would have converged after 6 months. So what
| does that look like for a treatment? Do you have people trip
| every 3-6 months? How do you structure a Phase 3 trial to test
| the efficacy of, say, the 4th dose?
| john-doe wrote:
| Who would have thought that the compounds probably responsible
| for our consciousness are also beneficial to our mental health.
|
| https://www.inverse.com/article/34186-stoned-ape-hypothesis
| causi wrote:
| _Patients with depression are warned not to take psilocybin on
| their own._
|
| With no physical dependency potential, low abuse potential, and
| an LD50 of above 250mg/kg, the only significant danger from
| taking mushrooms comes from the police.
| wnolens wrote:
| Maybe not exactly the same, but I'm dealing with artifacts of a
| bad LSD trip even years later. I wish I hadn't done it.
| bruce343434 wrote:
| What kind of artifacts, if you're willing to share?
| wnolens wrote:
| I'd call them "intrusive thoughts", like a (silent) voice
| in my own head that tells me something demeaning about
| myself (not actually it, but similar to "I'm a racist".)
|
| But when faced with the real world manifestation of these
| ideas, my emotions play out like these thoughts are indeed
| false. And I'd expect the reinforcement to correct this
| over time. But it hasn't. Causes great anxiety in quiet
| moments, and i'm hyper aware of certain social situations.
| It also comes up in dreams sometimes.
|
| The idea about myself came up mid-trip, and from it poured
| out empathy for others (good) but somehow the anxiety
| inducing parts never left.
| legrande wrote:
| > the only significant danger from taking mushrooms comes from
| the police
|
| If you have a history of mental illness in your family, it is
| not advised to experiment with psychedelics as they can waken
| up latent mental illness you never thought you even had.
|
| Psilocybin containing mushrooms & truffles were once legal in
| Ireland and you could just walk into a headshop and buy them
| like cigarettes. They were banned after someone jumped from a
| balcony to their death[0] after taking them, presumably after
| having an acute psychosis.
|
| [0] https://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/how-tragedy-
| led-...
| pessimizer wrote:
| The popular association between psychedelics and jumping from
| a great height originated with another crusade by America's
| columnist Art Linkletter, and his claim that his daughter
| jumped from her window to her death because she had taken LSD
| _6 months_ before.
|
| IMO it's the circulation of this trope that kills. People on
| psychedelics while having emotional issues and acting out
| know exactly how they're expected to behave.
|
| And apparently, this guy jumped less than an hour after
| taking a small amount of them. I can't imagine he was feeling
| much of anything yet, although others' experiences may vary
| from mine.
|
| https://www.irishtimes.com/news/should-the-law-be-based-
| on-a...
| [deleted]
| howinteresting wrote:
| The other comments have pointed this out, but I really want to
| emphasize how bad psychedelic drugs can be for the mental
| health of some people.
|
| Note that amphetamines also carry similar risks: for example,
| if given to someone with bipolar disorder, they can cause
| schizoaffective disorder.
| etaioinshrdlu wrote:
| A depressed person has an increased likelihood of an intensely
| negative experience, I believe.
| newbamboo wrote:
| False. Dangerously false.
| system16 wrote:
| The possibility of a bad trip in someone who is not prepared
| for the experience should not be understated. When reality
| crumbles around you for the first time, you may not make the
| best decisions and could hurt yourself or others. Novice users
| should definitely start with a low dose, and be in the company
| of someone they trust in an environment where they feel safe.
| ne0flex wrote:
| Definately agree. Two years ago, the death of a close friend
| lead me to try psilocybin as a means gaining a different
| perspective / coping with the loss. I don't think my scale
| was calibrated properly and ended up taking a fairly large
| dose. I wasn't at all prepared for the come up, where my body
| felt like it was overheating and I kept drinking chugging
| water feeling as though I was going to pass out. It scared
| the hell out of me. Luckily, I was able to call my friend who
| was experienced with this type of stuff and he guided me
| through it. If it wasn't for him, I definitely would've
| freaked out and done something stupid. The experience scared
| me that I wouldn't touch the stuff outside of micro doses.
|
| Seprately to the point above, I eventually noticed that I
| could get really emotional on a micro-dose and would feel
| suicidal. I once did a micro-dose before work in the morning
| that resulted in sending a very emotionally charged email to
| a coworker. Haven't touched the stuff since then.
| eldenwrong wrote:
| Furthermore not everyone can deal with the aftermath of a bad
| trip. I've seen people get messed up for a long time because
| they believed the delusions they had.
| titoasty wrote:
| Yep. 15 years later, still messed up. Not with delusions,
| but with the constant fear of being in that state again.
| The descent (is it the correct translation?) was more than
| particularly rough. I was kinda anxious before, but after
| it's been a constant hell of anxiety/depression/stress,
| avoiding anything that can trigger these feelings (yeah,
| I'm looking at you, sugar).
|
| So be extreeemely careful with this.
| after_care wrote:
| I agree with everything you said, but would also advise
| caution for more experienced users as well.
| renewiltord wrote:
| They're forced to say that. Though any reference to alcohol
| should come with a similar warning.
|
| I agree with the safety. Had an astronomical trip yesterday and
| I feel great for it. Fascinating journey into the nature of my
| consciousness and the things I fear for no reason.
| causi wrote:
| I wish it was decriminalized here. Watching friends struggle
| and even losing a few despite knowing a potential treatment
| makes me incredibly angry.
| Bellamy wrote:
| Obviously you never had a bad trip. If you had, you'd
| understand the power and dangers it can have to a person.
|
| I've had a few (always learned a lot, so all net positive
| experiences) but I understand the damage it can do for a person
| that's not fully mentally stable.
| klyrs wrote:
| There are two significant dangers:
|
| 1) (set) A bad trip can result in a massive setback in terms of
| one's mental health -- which can take months or even years to
| overcome. This risk is significantly mitigated by the presence
| of an expert (which may be a therapist, and may be a seasoned
| psychonaut) who can talk through issues as they arise for the
| tripper.
|
| 2) (setting) People on mushrooms occasionally do really stupid
| shit. A naive user might not expect the trip to last for hours,
| realize they're "late" for some real-world engagement, and get
| into a car to drive there. Early into one of my first trips, I
| noticed that a 20m cliff appeared to be getting shorter...
| nearly short enough to jump. This can be mitigated by the
| presence of an expert (or, honestly, almost any sober adult),
| who should ensure that the immediate environment is effectively
| baby-proofed.
| Epiphany21 wrote:
| >A bad trip can result in a massive setback in terms of one's
| mental health -- which can take months or even years to
| overcome
|
| This is extremely rare. For perspective, there are people who
| drink once and overdo it, and end up dying in accidents or
| fights. But no one talks about it because it's equally rare
| and alcohol is socially accepted.
|
| >People on mushrooms occasionally do really stupid shit.
|
| Sober people do really stupid shit all the time, too.
|
| Anecdotally I've taken 6g of dried shrooms (they are
| decriminalized here, for what that's worth) and was still
| able to refill my coffee and walk up and down a flight of
| stairs without spilling it or falling. I still wouldn't drive
| like that, but liquor impairs my fine motor skills a lot
| more. Driving myself to the hospital if I had to would've
| been possible off shrooms, but I can't say the same about
| half a bottle of whiskey.
|
| Every drug is slightly different for every individual and no
| two highs are identical, sure, but for most nothing bad
| happens with psychedelics.
| 0xJRS wrote:
| better off just having a few drinks then since it's safer.
| after_care wrote:
| Alcohol is not as effective of a treatment for depression
| as P. Cubensis.
| engineer_22 wrote:
| Alcohol is a depressant. It exacerbates depression.
| rpmisms wrote:
| I'm tired of hearing this. Alcohol is a CNS depressant.
| It slows down your nervous system. It is not a depressant
| by your definition.
| dogleash wrote:
| Alcohol's classification as a depressant refers to
| depression of neurotransmission, not the mental
| affliction known as depression.
| fsckboy wrote:
| alcohol has many effects that affect/interact with mood
| and mood disorders.
|
| TL;DR alcohol is not helpful and can be very disruptive
| for some.
|
| it doesn't https://health.usnews.com/conditions/mental-
| health/depressio...
| [deleted]
| recuter wrote:
| > This risk is significantly mitigated by the presence of an
| expert (which may be a therapist, and may be a seasoned
| psychonaut) who can talk through issues as they arise for the
| tripper.
|
| > Shamans, curanderos and experienced users of ayahuasca
| advise against consuming ayahuasca when not in the presence
| of one or several well-trained shamans
|
| I think a seasoned psychonaut friend who actually cares about
| you and isn't trying to get paid might be nice.
|
| What the hell does a therapist have to do with it? You can
| just tell this is going to be another bs licensed profession
| in the future. Welcome to Spores'R-Us may I take your order.
| klyrs wrote:
| Not everybody can find a seasoned psychonaut, though. The
| closest they'll have access to is their drug dealer. A
| therapist with a clean supply and training in trip support
| is preferable for two reasons: the clean supply, and the
| legal system. You don't go to the cops if your dealer
| steals your wallet and car while you're tripping on
| whatever you bought. If your therapist is a shithead,
| there's a licensing body you can report that to.
| recuter wrote:
| I feel a little bit like I'm tripping right now reading
| this comment.
|
| You... trip.. with your drug dealer? Huh?
|
| And if your therapist has a "clean supply" and you buy
| from them, are they not now your drug dealer?
|
| How are these people stealing your car?
|
| WHAT.
| klyrs wrote:
| Hilarious.
|
| No, I don't trip with my dealer. Nor do I recommend it: I
| suggest that a risk you could incur is your dealer
| stealing from you while you're blitzed on the floor of
| your apartment. And should that happen, the police will
| happily book you for admitting to one crime while
| reporting another.
|
| And, yes, your therapist would technically be your dealer
| at that point. But, key difference: the strictures of
| legality are stacked in your favor at that point.
| [deleted]
| rootwork wrote:
| A trained therapist (the definition of which will have to
| wait) is crucial when you leave the domain of surface
| psychological work, which can last many years even at above
| high doses without a correct structure in place and
| understanding of the phases of psychedelic work (there are
| two phases: sense tuning, where 99% of journeys end because
| of lack of attention control and reactive immersion of the
| attention in sense perception changes such as visual or
| auditory hallucination which then become full experiences
| due to the immersion; and the work phase, where you
| coordinate with the psychedelic on the unfolding of your
| intent). Once you begin work on root causes of the
| psychological structure a seasoned psychonaut may not be
| sufficient, unless they have themselves done root work,
| because if seasoned means years of experience at high doses
| at the surface of the structure, they don't have the
| capacity to hold you and at the same time allow you to
| continue through root work, when your points of reference
| framework is taken apart temporarily for the purpose of
| understanding the pattern of self-judgement that is
| ingrained in the foundation of your perception of reality,
| and during that short period of time when your points of
| reference are suspended, everything within your present
| environment including empty space reveals a memory that is
| connected to self-judgement and which triggers self-
| judgement in the moment. This is happening while the
| psychedelic is digging out the root of that pattern and
| until it is dug out, your inner and outer perception
| becomes a unified experience of self-judgement. Until the
| root is uncovered, and prior to that day of therapy, the
| experience of self-judgement in daily life was a series of
| disconnected nodes in an invisible graph. Depending on your
| involvement in self contemplation, some patterns within the
| graph may have become known to you, but that didn't stop
| the experience of recreating situations that further the
| self-judgement. Once the root is uncovered in therapy, the
| whole graph becomes available to your conscious mind and
| you are able to clearly see the initial experience or set
| of experiences from which the self-judgement pattern
| evolved, and are at the same time able to understand every
| single past experience that had the mildest expression of
| that pattern and see the aspect of your personal identity
| that is the growth of those experiences. Most importantly,
| from that moment onwards integration becomes possible,
| integration being the recognition of the pattern in the
| present situation and connection of the present situation
| to the root of the pattern which enables you to introduce
| conscious response into what previously was habitual
| reaction, thus transforming the pattern. Apologies for
| going off track but it seemed useful to share.
|
| The hell that a therapist has to do with it is the one you
| are experiencing in the moments just before the root gets
| uncovered, which hell may seem to last an eternity as the
| uncountable previous experiences of self-judgement become
| condensed into the space of now, and not just the
| experiences, but the very part of your personal identity to
| which in a way you are fully attached and without which you
| would feel loss, even though you consider it a pattern that
| introduces chaos into your daily experience. A good
| therapist, even one without extensive personal root cause
| psychedelic experience, will be able to help you navigate
| that hell, and reach the root. Without the proper structure
| and guidance you might not reach that experience of even
| beginning the work on the root, and if you do, a different
| outcome could be that you do not uncover the root, remain
| with the memory of a bad trip in which "I got stuck in a
| loop of self-judgement that seemed to never end", and are
| potentially further away from coming back to that subject
| and finishing the work by burying the root due to this
| experience, because if I went through that and didn't
| finish it in that sitting, I am for sure gonna take a nice
| long break from trying to understand self-judgement, and
| the condensed experience that would have led to uncovering
| the root will have had at least some temporary impact on my
| sensitivity, so I'll be fine dealing with self-judgement
| for a while.
|
| I completely understand your worry though, and have one of
| my own, because it seems to me very possible that a future
| awaits where the structure of psychedelic work is not
| known, and the work will be limited to the surface, curing
| depression, learning incredible skills, and not realise the
| possibilities for the deep work. My worry is that
| psychedelics will be productised before their depth
| capacity is fully understood, and the product will be so
| appealing, near limitless in application and well marketed,
| that the depth work will have to wait for the next
| disruption opportunity in the product cycle, which in this
| market seems to be counted in the thousands of years.
| tomatowurst wrote:
| in another thread I mentioned psilocybin mushrooms and how it
| helped depression in a lasting way I was _downvoted_ to oblivion
| because it was "shaman and not based on science".
|
| Good to see more and more science come out to explain the
| mechanics.
|
| We are on the verge of drastic improvements in mental health
| across the board but I fear that a certain industry with
| commercial interests will naturally seek to do anything and
| everything to make sure their interests are unaffected.
| whalesalad wrote:
| I've been surprised by the negative opinion of self medicating
| held by a vocal group here. I can honestly say this medicine
| saved my life. I put my hands in the care of "the system" for
| too long and it never got me anywhere. A few months of
| microdosing, occasional tripping, and meditation/breathwork has
| completely changed the trajectory of my life.
| tomatowurst wrote:
| happy to hear that brother, I also note that this might be
| geographically related, I saw at one point (posting outside
| west coast 9~5pm) rise to 20 upvotes, and then downvoted
| (during work hours in west coast).
|
| consequently when I type some comment near the end of the
| work day, it gets downvoted initially but then drastically
| attracts upvote outside the said work hour.
| daenz wrote:
| Speaking from personal experience, psychedelics can have a very
| emotionally cathartic effect. At the end of it, you feel like you
| were a sponge full of emotion that has just been wrung out. I can
| definitely see how if you're "stuck" in some kind of pattern,
| exercising those emotions can help get you "unstuck." I would
| probably recommend someone do this once every other year.
| ta8645 wrote:
| My personal experience is decades old, but different. I never
| had an emotional release provided by LSD. Instead, there were
| enjoyable visual hallucinations, ability to concentrate, and a
| heightened appreciation of beauty.
|
| But then coming down after a few hours was an emotional
| dumpster fire. It was really hard to endure emotionally; self-
| doubt, paranoia, and extreme sadness. But after many trips, not
| overreacting to those feelings, and knowing they'd pass, became
| a skill.
|
| It was never less painful to come down, but it did become
| expected, understood, and manageable. That skill has since
| served me well in other contexts.
| daenz wrote:
| Thanks for sharing. I should have clarified that my
| experience was with psilocybin
| derevaunseraun wrote:
| Psychedelics are weird: some people will speak very positively
| about them. Other people get fucked up for life. It's like
| rolling a dice. Imho that's not a risk any person with sound
| judgement would take.
|
| But I'm also sure they've helped many people as is evidenced by
| the replies here.
|
| The older I get (and the more I hear about people ODing in the
| news and from friends), the more I think that drugs as a whole
| are bad and alcohol is only borderline acceptable because of
| inertia
| AnonCoward4 wrote:
| As far as I know you can't sensibly OD on LSD for example. It
| doesn't really cause addiction and to OD you need to take
| something like 100x the effective dose.However the psychosis
| danger would still be a valid concern ("rolling a dice" puts it
| quite nicely)
| derevaunseraun wrote:
| the OD part wasn't with respect to LSD but towards drugs in
| general. I've known people who got started with psychedelics,
| then moved on to molly (not real MDMA, like the dangerous
| synthetic street shit), and onto other stuff after that. It
| makes people more susceptible to drug culture
|
| I can't imagine anyone physically ODing on LSD if it's legit.
| But there's two risks: adverse mental reactions and adverse
| physical reactions if the shit you take isn't real
| mudcrab wrote:
| Humans can be allergic to anything - re-read your post
| replacing 'Psychedelics' with 'nuts' - no-one gets this excited
| over peanut allergies - we've replaced this fear with
| education, drugs should be the same.
| AnthonBerg wrote:
| Psychedelics are profoundly immunomodulatory - 5-HT2A agonists
| are psychedelics are antiinflammatory:
| https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2015.0035...
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2022-04-11 23:01 UTC)