[HN Gopher] Apple starts manufacturing iPhone 13 in India
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Apple starts manufacturing iPhone 13 in India
Author : nradov
Score : 246 points
Date : 2022-04-11 14:36 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.reuters.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com)
| contingencies wrote:
| _iPhone 13 production halted due to
| <flooding/corruption/electrical outage/internet outage/local
| elections/bands of roving monkeys/cow wandering in to production
| line/logistics failure>_ - The next headline
| 01100011 wrote:
| India is in an interesting position right now. They're riding the
| fence on relations with their old friend Russia and should
| benefit from access to below market rate oil and other resources.
| Provided they don't get sanctioned too, which I think is
| unlikely, they should see some economic growth. How that works
| out in the middle of a global slowdown is anyone's guess .
| option wrote:
| How can I make sure that the model I buy in US is made in India,
| not China?
| Maximus9000 wrote:
| Here is an old tweet that answers that:
|
| https://twitter.com/sjosephburns/status/1188443530085224448
| wodenokoto wrote:
| tchalla wrote:
| The phone in the tweet is "Assembled in India" different from
| "Made in India"
| rs999gti wrote:
| Why does it matter?
|
| $AAPL is insuring profits by moving from state controlled labor
| to third world labor to ensure westerners get the latest phones
| cute_boi wrote:
| And, the worst thing is there has already been one bad
| incident in Apple factories, in India. The workers were
| treated so badly, given shit food, bad place to sleep and
| were given no salary, they started to strike. I hope such
| ruckus will make us consider how the "bigtechs" exploits
| people life for profit.
| eunos wrote:
| To be fair I believe the fuck-up was caused by local
| employee and admin not some conspiracy in Palo Alto or
| Taipei.
| jsemrau wrote:
| Two of reason why it's cheaper to ship parts into Third
| world country, then produce in Third world country and
| ship it again across the world into "First world country"
| is the lack of employee and environmental protections.
| The desire to save a few bucks is not a conspiracy.
| joshe wrote:
| Glad to see Apple make progress diversifying away from China.
|
| China is just not reliable enough to be your sole supplier
| anymore. Fifteen years ago with the first iPhone it was low risk.
| Unfortunately governance has gotten more incompetent and more
| repressive over the last 10 years of the Xi era. There is also
| the small but real risk of a complete trade stoppage if China
| invades Taiwan.
|
| I'm not sure how the party lost control enough to let Xi walk in
| as dictator, but as with Russia, Chinese politics is controlled
| by the whim of one man.
| jsemrau wrote:
| Not sure if you have seen this [1] amalgamation of several
| social videos, really the lockdown enforcement in Shanghai is
| not for the faint of heart.
|
| [1] https://app.finclout.io/t/3rjOePV
| athrowaway3z wrote:
| Loyalty bought by incidental prosperity and fear, over a long
| period of time.
|
| Not sure why you'd believe the Chinese state ever had a chance
| to avoid a personality-cult dictatorship. They might have
| adapted to block another Mao, but dictators arise in every
| system as do the suckers who believe in their self proclaimed
| righteousness.
|
| The best way to deal with them seems comedic humiliation as
| they challenge others to serve for a bounded period of time.
| thematrixturtle wrote:
| China's leadership structures were revamped considerably
| (term limits, defined processes for succession etc) after
| Mao, precisely to prevent something like that happening
| again. And they worked well for a while, but unfortunately Xi
| managed to amass enough power to circumvent them and set
| himself up as dictator for life.
| phoehne wrote:
| If China did something crazy that required Russia level sanctions
| on China, Apple would be hard over a barrel. You could have an
| Apple with nothing to sell but their existing, current inventory.
| They should be spreading out some manufacturing to hedge risk.
| memish wrote:
| Who would be hurt more by that? China or Apple?
| md_ wrote:
| "If"?
|
| Like...forced sterilization and "re-education" camps for
| religious and ethnic minorities?
| https://www.newyorker.com/news/a-reporter-at-large/china-xin...
|
| Spying on Uighers abroad and holding their innocent relatives
| at home hostage so that they will not agitate against human
| rights abuses? https://harpers.org/archive/2022/04/the-spies-
| next-door-uigh...
|
| Or employing slave labor in factories in Western supply chains?
| https://www.aspi.org.au/report/uyghurs-sale
| newaccount74 wrote:
| I think the worst part is where they murder political
| prisoners by removing their organs to transplant them to rich
| people from abroad.
|
| Horrible things have been going on in China for decades but
| nobody dares say anything because we are dependent on their
| manufacturing.
| atlasunshrugged wrote:
| Woah, hadn't heard about the murdering political prisoners
| and doing transplants, can you share a link to where I can
| read more?
| md_ wrote:
| I think a reference to
| https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/17/china-is-
| harve....
| trasz wrote:
| ComradePhil wrote:
| Talk about being out of touch. The Uigher and Hong Kong
| propaganda was built for when Trump was around. It has
| disappeared now. When it was around, HN posts amplifying it
| got massive upvotes:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24879870
|
| Even if Uigher thing is important for you for personal,
| professional or ideological reasons, you need to wait for the
| correct timing if you are to be heard.
| mort96 wrote:
| If your argument is that we ought to be much more harsh
| against China due to their treatment of their population,
| then yeah, that's fair. All the stuff you mention, and more,
| is pretty horrific and deserving of some kind of response.
|
| However, historically, it doesn't seem like the imperial core
| enacts aggressive foreign policy purely for the benefit of
| the people in a country. Sanctioning China would be against
| the imperial core's geopolitical and financial interests at
| the moment, which means it won't happen, even though China's
| actions are ethically horrific. GP's "if" refers to if China
| does something which makes countries in the core actually
| sanction China.
|
| If I'm wrong, please correct me, it would be interesting to
| see cases where the core enacts sanctions against its own
| geopolitical, ideological or financial interests in an
| attempt to benefit some suppressed group of people. I'm not
| an expert on the topic, just casually interested.
| md_ wrote:
| As with everything, there's nuance. But, yes, it's
| politically a lot harder to argue for sanctions that will
| have a significant effect on consumers/voters than those
| that will not.
| lkxijlewlf wrote:
| Does any place outside of China manufacture electronic parts
| (resisters, capacitors, etc)? Even if Apple moved most of their
| manufacturing to India, I think they'd still be dependent on
| China (as would everyone else).
| mtts wrote:
| Yes. In fact the stuff you list doesn't come from China at
| all but Indonesia. More complicated components come from
| Malaysia and Thailand, as do hard drives and the like.
| [deleted]
| atlasunshrugged wrote:
| I think that it is incredibly unlikely the world could stomach
| Russia level sanctions on China so there may be a more muted
| response more focused on getting companies to more rapidly
| unwind their supply chains from China. Also, in the meantime
| there may be more proactive responses from the government to
| prevent this happening in other sectors (e.g. the Senator
| Casey/Cornyn outbound investment screening proposal)
|
| https://www.casey.senate.gov/news/releases/casey-and-cornyn-...
| phoehne wrote:
| It may not even be a sanctions choice by the US. It could be
| that China decides that making Macs, iPhones, and iPads does
| not align with "common prosperity." They could make up a new
| law that says Apple devices need special export inspections,
| only available on February 30. It would have an outsized
| effect on the US Markets because Apple is such a large part
| of both the indexes (which grab headlines) but also their
| portfolios. (Either directly or through funds they hold).
| It's not going to cripple the US, but it would inflict pain.
| Most likely more pain than the Chinese leadership would feel.
| atlasunshrugged wrote:
| Yeah, I'm highly skeptical that China would do that to one
| of the largest companies in the world, not because they
| probably couldn't withstand it, but because of the general
| market signal it would create. Sentiment is already turning
| or has turned negative on China but it's a big market so
| many companies persist, but imagine if the biggest company
| in the world can just be shut out? Many companies would
| probably stay, but it'd just be to milk what they can out
| of the market, I doubt any would really invest significant
| resources in China anymore.
| wollsmoth wrote:
| yeah, I'm not even sure how long we can really squeeze
| Russia.
| atlasunshrugged wrote:
| If we=USA then I think we can squeeze Russia forever, if
| we=USA/EU/West then indeed, it will be tougher to pull off
| fit2rule wrote:
| toast0 wrote:
| What phone company or computer company would be able to build
| their product without their Chinese supply chain?
|
| Russia aimed to be sanctions proof by having a largely self-
| sufficient industry. China aims to be sanctions proof by being
| critical in all supply chains. The US aims to be sanction proof
| by controlling the sanctions regime.
| fsflover wrote:
| > What phone company or computer company would be able to
| build their product without their Chinese supply chain?
|
| https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa
| onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
| China doesn't make that many critical parts for phones.
|
| Excluding Taiwan - does China have a monopoly on anything
| important beside assembly for Apple?
|
| Samsung would not be screwed.
| uuyi wrote:
| It's not about parts but raw materials. It's far more
| expensive to import materials, make parts and assemble post
| import than assemble everything at source and then export
| it.
| throwaway4good wrote:
| Batteries?
| atlasunshrugged wrote:
| Literally the vast majority of the critical mineral supply
| chain that is needed as inputs for most modern electronics,
| EVs, etc. although the US gov is finally waking up and
| doing something about it.
|
| https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-
| releases...
| ksec wrote:
| >What phone company
|
| Samsung, on a relatively large scale and assembly in Vietnam.
|
| Sony, their scale has lot more to do with them being
| incapable to competing in smartphone market.
| eunos wrote:
| Samsung has huge memory manufacturing in China.
| kemiller wrote:
| The Chinese supply chain barely existed, relatively speaking,
| 20 years ago. It can be rebuilt the same way it was built:
| piece by piece. That's what's happening. Whether it's a good
| thing geopolitically remains to be seen but diversifying does
| seem smart for the Apple.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > It can be rebuilt the same way it was built: piece by
| piece.
|
| Not exactly. A huge part of what happened in China and made
| its industrial revolution possible was demographic: a _lot_
| of young, rural population that could (thanks to
| mechanisation of farming) now go off to the mega-cities and
| work in factories.
|
| In contrast, the Western world does not have many young
| people any more and especially not many willing to work for
| shit wages... we _could_ technically rebuild our supply
| chains domestically, but we won 't have the population to
| staff the factories and the automation experience to
| automate them. Not to mention that an awful lot of what was
| "outsourced" were extremely dirty and polluting processes -
| the Silicon Valley is at the top of the Superfund sites
| count for a reason. Bringing these processes back home will
| require a lot of investment to ensure environmental
| compliance, or it won't be possible at all under the
| current environmental legislation.
| mpalczewski wrote:
| The pace of productivity increases in manufacturing is
| increasing faster than pace of increase in demand. This
| is similar to what was happing in agriculture around
| 1900-1930 or so when 90% of the country farmed. When/if
| manufacturing comes back it will be much more automated,
| it will be much less labor intensive.
| cwp wrote:
| That demographic advantage was twenty years ago. Today
| China has a terrible demographic structure--more old
| people than young people and a fertility rate well below
| replacement level. The One Child policy worked _too_
| well. And yes, much of the Western world has the same
| problem, but two notable exceptions are the United States
| and Mexico. We 'll end up there eventually, but we've got
| some time.
|
| I don't think all manufacturing will come back to the US.
| Much of it will go to South-East Asia and India as we're
| seeing in the article. And a bunch will surely end up in
| Mexico, which has lots of young people and an obvious
| geographical advantage.
|
| But regardless of where they go, Apple really, really has
| to get out of China as quickly as possible. There are a
| lot of cracks showing in the Chinese system, and things
| could fall apart there very quickly. The demographics
| alone are staggering - the Chinese population could fall
| by _half_ in the next 30 years, and the effects will be
| felt long before then.
| atlasunshrugged wrote:
| Does the US necessarily need to rebuild the supply chain
| in the U.S.? Don't they just want a less antagonistic
| government? Could be Ethiopia (okay maybe not anymore),
| Nigeria, etc.
| daemoens wrote:
| It will be done in Mexico. They have the young
| demographics and over the past five years, more and more
| manufacturing has been moving because of high Chinese
| labor costs.
| atlasunshrugged wrote:
| Maybe. I worry that the situation in Mexico will continue
| to devolve and it'll be an impossible security risk for a
| multinational to operate anything that could be stolen,
| held hostage, etc. by a cartel.
|
| Is your username a reference to the book Daemon? One of
| my favorite
| mkl95 wrote:
| Apple have been manufacturing some iPhones in India for a while.
| I found out when there was a massive strike at one of their
| supplier's factories in 2020 (over unpaid wages).
| https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-india-wistron-idUSK...
| giobox wrote:
| Although this article paints this being about diversifying a
| China-heavy supply chain, Apple have been forced to ramp up
| manufacturing in India for many years now due to legislation that
| places enormous import taxes on selling products in India that
| are not manufactured in India. This isn't the first time they've
| moved some handset production to India due to the tax situation:
|
| https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/06/18/apple-to-assemble...
| GeekyBear wrote:
| Many articles point out that Apple has moved to expand
| production outside of China.
|
| >Apple is reportedly increasing device production in countries
| outside of China as part of a diversification strategy. iPad
| production will begin in Vietnam as early as mid-2021,
| according to a Wednesday report from Japanese financial
| publication Nikkei Asia. Vietnam will also help produce the
| HomePod Mini.
|
| Apple is also reportedly hoping to bolster smartphone
| production India and smart speaker production in Southeast
| Asia. Most of the computer production will remain in China,
| according to the report, but some Mac Mini production will be
| relocated to Malaysia. Some Macbook production is also set to
| move to Vietnam as well.
|
| https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/apple-expanding-devi...
| smoldesu wrote:
| At the same time, they're also increasing their reliance on
| China[0] for piecemeal components. Specifically, their
| display, camera and storage has been pivoting to Chinese
| suppliers.
|
| Assembly does seem to be moving out of China, but that was
| never the hard part (hell, assembly is even economically
| viable in the US). Their supply chain itself is a whole
| different story it would seem. From an economic and logistics
| perspective, Apple is now integrated deeper in China than
| ever before.
|
| [0] https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/Apple-taps-
| more-...
| GeekyBear wrote:
| Qualifying additional component suppliers is not quite the
| same thing as abandoning components made by companies like
| Sony and Samsung and pivoting to China.
|
| >The Nikkei Asian Review says Apple is "aggressively
| testing" screens made by the Chinese company, as it
| considers taking on BOE as an OLED supplier to cut costs
| and reduce its reliance on Samsung, which is believed to be
| Apple's primary supplier of OLED displays.
|
| Apple is seeking to diversify its supply chain as much as
| possible. The company often tries to secure at least two
| suppliers for any given component in order to reduce its
| supply chain risk and improve its bargaining position.
|
| https://www.macrumors.com/2019/08/21/apple-aggressively-
| test...
|
| That Chinese company, BOE, didn't manage to pass the
| necessary QC testing until late last year.
|
| >The Beijing-based display maker began shipping a small
| number of organic light-emitting diode (OLED) displays for
| the 6.1-inch iPhone 13 in late September
|
| https://www.macrumors.com/2021/10/13/oled-to-supply-oled-
| pan...
| causi wrote:
| Yes. I wish they wouldn't. The potential danger of China
| having serious socio-governmental problems as a result of
| food shortages and policy collisions with Western powers is
| getting more significant every day. If Xi decides impending
| demographic collapse means taking Taiwan now is better than
| taking it later Apple and the rest of Western electronics
| giants could see their China access disappear overnight.
| yumraj wrote:
| > Most of the computer production will remain in China
|
| iMac are made in Thailand also (if not only)
| coolso wrote:
| Sounds like we have a solution for "encouraging" Apple and
| other manufacturers to start making things in the USA again...
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| Think of the poor shareholders /s
| dymk wrote:
| Tarifs are not exactly a new or unknown concept to
| policymakers
| FabHK wrote:
| _Import substitution industrialization_ , as it's known,
| has been tried with pretty disastrous results in Latin
| America in the 1950s+, though South Korea and Taiwan pulled
| it off successfully, arguably. The idea itself is centuries
| old.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Import_substitution_industria
| l...
| nojito wrote:
| China's supply chain is no longer price competitive. Apple and
| others have been looking at South East Asia for potential
| locations for years now.
|
| The legislation that india created was just smart politics to
| ensure that these companies set up shop there.
| cute_boi wrote:
| It won't be competitive as lifestyle of China is growing. Its
| unfortunate that we can't have good stuff without
| exploitation (in today's context). I hope we can make leaps
| in manufacturing, so people from Asian country like India
| aren't exploited for shiny things like iPhone.
|
| I believe same thing happened with Japan. As Japan grew rich,
| market in China started look attractive. And now, India is
| looking attractive. Looks like this vicious cycle will
| continue forever, as there will always be country with lax on
| human rights.
| eunos wrote:
| While I kind of dislike sounding like a neoliberal, one
| person's exploitation is another's lifestyle upgrade.
|
| Hopefully in a decade or two electronic manufacturing will
| start moving to Africa and ultimately helps accelerate
| industrialization.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| > Looks like this vicious cycle will continue forever, as
| there will always be country with lax on human rights.
|
| If you are using Japan as an example, isn't there an
| eventual end to the exploitation once the country gets
| rich? In that case, the trade off should be worth it. The
| problem is if countries are exploited while not becoming
| becoming rich at the same time, like India during its
| colonial period. Not much good will come out of that.
| gordon_freeman wrote:
| I think there is also some legal limitations Apple wanted to
| overcome by manufacturing in India in order to operate their
| Apple Stores in India to directly sell to customers there
| without being forced to do merger with an Indian partner to
| sell their products.
| akmittal wrote:
| Apple is not just making for India, they have also started
| exporting. They have exported worth $1.4 billion, which may not
| be very large chunk for company as big as Apple, but Apple
| contractors are doubling down on India.
|
| https://www.financialexpress.com/industry/apples-big-bite-ex...
| sharkster711 wrote:
| iPhones are ridiculously expensive in India because of the
| import taxes - a decent chunk of the population would be able
| to afford them if they were brought in line with the US
| prices.
| akmittal wrote:
| I think it's more to do with average household income. Per
| capita a US citizen earn 10x that of an Indian citizen.
| YetAnotherNick wrote:
| Right now iphone 13 price on amazon is [?]73,990. US price
| before sales tax $799 which is [?]60,646. Add 18% GST which
| is charged even in product manufactured in India, you would
| get [?]71,562. So basically around 3% is charged as import
| fees.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| Apple has a store in India:
|
| https://www.apple.com/in/iphone/
|
| iPhone 13 is listed as [?]69900.00 (920$) vs. $799 in the
| USA. The former includes taxes, so its only fair to add
| $80 to the latter (taxes in my state are 10%), so it is
| still around $40 difference, which isn't bad.
|
| But it appears that the iPhone 13s sold in India today
| are already being produced in India. If that is the case,
| any secondary resalers on Amazon are going to take a loss
| if they imported the phones the hard way (though they
| could have just smuggled them in).
| dwh99 wrote:
| A correction - the price of Rs.69,900 is for the iPhone
| 13 mini. The iPhone 13 is listed at Rs.79,900 in the
| Indian Apple store (~$1,050 against $799 in the USA).
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| Ah, thanks, I wasn't careful enough.
| mohanmcgeek wrote:
| > vs. $799 in the USA
|
| vs. $829 in the USA
|
| 799 includes carrier discounts. You get bank discounts in
| India which would get the price down to little over $800
|
| iPhone 13 costs about the same as it would if you bought
| it in the US.
|
| But 13 Pro is a different story It costs $1580 compared
| to $1099 (incl. tax) in the US. I guess they don't make
| iPhone 13 Pros in India
| wtmt wrote:
| The base sales tax, which is GST in India, is also a lot
| higher (18%) than the average in the US (guessing it would
| be around 8%). A decent chunk of the population would be
| able to afford iPhones only if Apple reduces prices
| drastically and the GST rate goes to 12% or 5%. Neither of
| these are likely.
| lostmsu wrote:
| Was India large part of their market?
| ksec wrote:
| Nope, They have a single digit percentage market share in
| India. Whether that is shipment or actual usage. So in order
| to have a lower price / import tax they need to start
| manufacturing more components in India.
| gime_tree_fiddy wrote:
| I think this will be an interesting development. Give the
| high $-to-INR rate, and prices of apple products, it will
| always be a hard sell. Indian consumers won't be eager to
| spend multiple paychecks on iPhones and don't see Apple
| dropping prices. Unstoppable force, meet immovable object.
|
| I am not sure why they are making this move, what are their
| goals for doing so.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| India has a huge middle class even if it is a small part
| of its total population. iPhones won't be popular with
| tuktuk drivers, but a techy, no problem.
| reducesuffering wrote:
| iPhone SE's are also only $400 now in the US. That should
| be closing in on the price of other Androids in India.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| Apple currently does not have much market share in India, but
| with a population of 1.38 billion people I'm sure they'd like
| to. They've been making iPhone SEs in India for a while now.
|
| This report [1] says they ended calendar year 2020 with 2.4%
| market share and increased it to 4.4% in 2021.
|
| [1] https://www.businesstoday.in/latest/corporate/story/exclu
| siv...
| mohanmcgeek wrote:
| > They've been making iPhone SEs in India for a while now.
|
| They've been making 11s,12s in the same plant in the OP
|
| The 13 production started only now.
| pdpi wrote:
| With over a billion people, you don't even need a massive
| market share to have a massive market.
| ceva wrote:
| It will a moment am not going to buy iphone again..
| goldcd wrote:
| I think the important thing, is whether this is e2e manufacturing
| or just assembly.
|
| I mean if you can repair a phone yourself, you've got the skills
| to assemble a new one. What China has and what I guess India
| really needs, is the massive technical and logistics pyramid that
| the final assembly sits on.
|
| Assembly is simply tariff avoidance - and maybe a nice puff-piece
| for politicians.
| onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
| My understanding is that most of the important parts - the
| camera sensors, SOC, and memory are made mainly in Taiwan,
| Japan, and South Korea.
|
| Is this incorrect?
| throwaway4good wrote:
| https://vdata.nikkei.com/en/newsgraphics/iphone-teardown/
|
| The components are from all over the world.
|
| Though China's share is rising in particular with the
| inclusion of displays by BOE.
| arberx wrote:
| The largest American company is completely dependent on China.
| How this was allowed to happen is beyond me.
| sharken wrote:
| Seems simple enough when the mantra is Profit before risk.
|
| If companies such as Apple would also consider softer things
| like Human Rights, a lot would be different.
|
| But companies will always do what brings in the most profit,
| such as the creative Latvian blend by Shell:
|
| https://frontierindia.com/shell-to-buy-russian-oil-blend-lat...
| fibers wrote:
| If companies actually gave a shit about climate risks down
| the line and developed significantly different ways on how to
| reduce co2 emissions this would not be an issue. As it
| stands, the world is forced to import and consume an insane
| amount of oil to keep the lights on. As far as I can tell no
| one says anything about what's happening in Nigeria regarding
| human rights violations so I guess who is to say about the
| victims who happen to not have fair skin.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I look around and see lots of people buying pickup trucks
| and SUVs with 4L+ engines for casual use, 3k+ sq ft houses
| for 3 or 4 people, and flying to Hawaii for vacation. None
| of it seems forced.
|
| The world rewards the companies that give them what the
| world wants.
| nradov wrote:
| Most places don't import and consume much oil to keep the
| lights on. Worldwide only a small fraction of electricity
| production comes from burning petroleum products.
| sharken wrote:
| Now that you bring up Nigeria, i am not sure skin color is
| the number one issue.
|
| According to [1] and [2] there are problems in the south-
| east and to some degree also south-west.
|
| Nigeria is right now divided into 50% Muslim and 50%
| Christian and it looks like the Christian part of the
| country in the South is unhappy with that.
|
| I could very well be wrong here, but it seems to be too
| much of a coincidence.
|
| [1] https://www.premiumtimesng.com/news/more-
| news/467985-nigeria...
|
| [2] https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2022/country-
| chapters/niger...
| m0llusk wrote:
| Apple tried very hard to manufacture their products in the US
| and nearly went broke. They transitioned to manufacturing
| overseas because they needed to be competitive to survive.
| Right now this means China but with the cost of doing business
| there going up most of this production is likely to move to
| Vietnam.
| rs999gti wrote:
| Broke in terms of labor or material costs?
|
| Or could Americans just not manufacture Apple products?
| m0llusk wrote:
| Consumers demand low prices. Even with lots of automation
| manufacture in the US made both Apple Macs and NeXT cubes
| impractically expensive.
| karamanolev wrote:
| Try largest company in the world (AFAIK)...
| arberx wrote:
| Saudi Aramco at >$8T
| simulate-me wrote:
| That's 8T Saudi riyals, which is a little over 2T USD.
| Apple is bigger at 2.7T.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Saudi Aramco is not notable because it is simply a
| consequence of clerical designation. There is no
| innovation, or large scale coordination comparable to
| another company, not even Exxon or Shell.
| umeshunni wrote:
| > large scale coordination
|
| I agree with the innovation part (for some narrow
| definition of innovation at least), but not sure why you
| think drilling and shipping billions of tons of products
| requires no large scale coordination. Just looking at
| their wiki page, they operate hundreds of oil fields.
| [deleted]
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I guess negotiated business relationships would be a
| better word than cooperation? They have half of their
| equation (all their inventory) gifted to them by the king
| of their country.
| eunos wrote:
| Strong economic coupling prevents war. Hurrah for ultra
| globalized economy!
|
| Having said that it is quite amusing that now American in
| general and even HN in particular starts hating globalization
| when as late as a few years ago they couldn't stopped ramming
| globalization into everybody's mouth. Now when some of them
| starts getting their foot in the system you got Trump and
| MAGAs.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > Strong economic coupling prevents war. Hurrah for ultra
| globalized economy!
|
| This is why the whole history of, say, Europe involves almost
| no wars between neighbors with large amounts of trade just
| before the war, right?
| eunos wrote:
| Not strong enough, they don't put their moneyed folks and
| multinational CEOs as the stakeholder in the state. I'm
| sure they will be more level headed than some jaded
| Junkers. Pretty sure they would understand that it's a
| waste of wealth and time to cater some commotion in the
| Balkan.
| MangoCoffee wrote:
| >The largest American company is completely dependent on China
|
| uh. that's is not correct. if you watch any Apple tear down.
| there are a lot of components that's not made in China for
| example the chip are made by TSMC, screen is made by
| Samsung...etc.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > How this was allowed to happen is beyond me.
|
| America does not have the same interest in industrial
| manufacturing that China does, simple as that. If we wanted to
| shift 100% of iPhone production to the US, how long would it
| take to spin up that kind of capacity? Is it even _possible_?
| dwighttk wrote:
| And how much would they cost?
| rs999gti wrote:
| US defense industry does a lot of in house, domestic
| electronics manufacturing.
|
| I think something else is up with Apple not wanting to do
| production in the Americas
| kube-system wrote:
| You can absolutely build electronics in the US. China just
| does it cheaper, quicker, and in higher volume.
|
| Apple cares more about these things and less about where
| manufacturing happens.
|
| The military cares less about these things and more about
| where it happens.
| cycrutchfield wrote:
| Ah yes, the US defense industry is well-known for being
| cost efficient and meeting deadlines
| silisili wrote:
| > Is it even possible?
|
| The fact that this is even a question (that I also don't know
| the answer to) is indicative to me that we should find out.
| Being wholly reliant on a foreign nation for something as
| ubiquitous as chips should be seen as a potential security
| risk. Not in a handwavy 'privacy' context, but in one that it
| severely limits options should there be a disagreement.
| _-david-_ wrote:
| >Is it even possible?
|
| Of course it is possible. It would take some time and money,
| but if Apple wanted to do it they could. There are plenty of
| places that could use good jobs and have manufacturing
| experience like the Appalachia region.
| [deleted]
| naoqj wrote:
| "allowed to happen"? Do you think the government should tell
| companies where they can manufacture?
| arberx wrote:
| If it's a national security concern -- absolutely. Apple
| isn't just a company.
| atlasunshrugged wrote:
| Just dropped this in another comment but sharing here too.
| Some people apparently do (and actually have for a long time
| for national security stuff, but with the increasing dual-use
| nature of tech I think the idea of what should be considered
| critical or not is expanding). The bill below is probably the
| best articulation of some political thoughts on the subject
| of outsourcing supply chains.
| https://www.casey.senate.gov/news/releases/casey-and-
| cornyn-...
| option wrote:
| Depending on goods and services they provide. In case of high
| tech manufacturing- absolutely.
|
| Furniture is an example where we should care much less.
| throw_m239339 wrote:
| > "allowed to happen"? Do you think the government should
| tell companies where they can manufacture?
|
| Do you think Apple is allowed to manufacture in Iran? The
| government is already telling companies where they can or
| cannot manufacture.
| nukemaster wrote:
| Our law and freedom ends where the border begins.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _" allowed to happen"? Do you think the government should
| tell companies where they can manufacture?_
|
| Even without government intervention, a good CEO should know
| better than to put all of his company's eggs in one basket,
| whether that's an individual nation, or a single parts
| supplier.
|
| Apple's massive growth in services would somewhat insulate it
| from a locked-out-of-China scenario. At least long enough to
| establish diverse manufacturing elsewhere.
|
| As an Apple shareholder, for years I've been repeatedly
| disappointed with Mr. Cook's swooning and fawning over China.
| Not just for political and social reasons, but because he put
| the company and its future in jeopardy chasing Chinese
| manufacturing trends for short-term dollars. I want a CEO
| with long-term vision, who makes the company resilient so
| it'll keep producing revenue longer than the next three
| months.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| Why? If something pops off in Asia, Apple can cry to the US
| govt for a handout to manufacture elsewhere. Intel is only
| building fabs in the US because of government subsidies.
|
| So you can outsource everything for profit and then get the
| government to pay to bring them back. Rinse and repeat.
| reaperducer wrote:
| Because even if the government does come to your rescue
| (not guaranteed), you're going to have a multi-year to
| multi-decade impact on revenue, performance, and other
| metrics while you ramp up again. You don't just dial
| 1-800-FACTORY and a new iPhone plant gets delivered the
| next day.
|
| Why build the potential company-wide recession into your
| business plan?
| scns wrote:
| You may have to wait for the new Apple CEO.
|
| https://steveblank.com/2016/10/24/why-tim-cook-is-steve-
| ball...
| ngcc_hk wrote:
| Should have been sone in USA as well. Prepare for the worst.
| India like china vote along side with Russia and take oil from
| it.
|
| What if ...
|
| Unless we cannot sanction everyone and hence ... Russia continue
| to have money to bomb whichever it fancy.
| c7DJTLrn wrote:
| Somewhat unrelated but ever since moving to Android (Pixel 5)
| I've totally lost track of the iPhone product line. If you asked
| me what the difference between the iPhone 11/12/13 is I wouldn't
| be able to tell you. I don't think I care either. Phones aren't
| making big leaps anymore, it's not worth keeping up with.
| sho wrote:
| > If you asked me what the difference between the iPhone
| 11/12/13 is I wouldn't be able to tell you
|
| Well, let me assist. The 13 is way better than the 12, which is
| way better than the 11. The camera on the 13 is hands down the
| best camera yet on any mobile device and was sufficiently
| better that I and millions of others dropped a cool grand to
| get it. And guess what? If the 14 is better enough, I'll get
| that too, and be delighted about it!
|
| I get that many phones are now "good enough" for the more basic
| use cases but that doesn't mean strides aren't being made in
| other dimensions. You might not care, but others sure do.
| balls187 wrote:
| > The camera on the 13 is hands down the best camera yet on
| any mobile device
|
| I have a Canon MKIV with several lenses (most of which are L
| glass), and consider myself a decent photographer. [1]
|
| While the sensor size and resultant image data from my Canon
| vastly outperforms what my iPhone can do, the software
| processing Apple applies to photos leaves me significantly in
| awe when compared to my workflow that includes a beefy PC +
| Adobe Lightroom.
|
| At this point, I am seriously ditching my entire DSLR kit,
| shooting nearly exclusively with my iphone, and possibly just
| picking up a medium format digital range finder to shoot
| travel landscapes.
|
| 1: https://alanroy.smugmug.com/
| parkingrift wrote:
| Basically true of all smartphones, now. I recently saw a giant
| billboard for Samsung S22. I doubt Samsung has had 21 prior
| versions of the S line, but who knows. These phones all look
| the same and have had looked the same for a handful of years
| now.
| botdan wrote:
| Samsung switched to using the current year for their model
| numbers. S22 is the 2022 model.
| drewzero1 wrote:
| Thanks for clearing this up. Last year I was shopping for
| used phones and looking at S8/S9, and getting very confused
| when I saw S21 starting to pop up. "How many of these did
| they make, anyway?"
| HideousKojima wrote:
| S10 was the last of the old numbering scheme, they
| changed it in 2020 (with the S20).
| wcfields wrote:
| Tangentially related, Reminds me of this: In Los Angeles
| there's a few very prominently displayed billboards at a
| shopping center for the Galaxy S4 that has somehow
| remained up [1]
|
| [1] https://goo.gl/maps/deKaDdMjM3U4P1Gb7
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| Same. I stopped caring. I'll use my Pixel 4 until it is no
| longer supported.
| snek_case wrote:
| If only the Pixel 6 had a headphone jack... :'(
| mattnewton wrote:
| 5a does have one, but it is annoying that this only seems
| to appear on budget phones.
| trm42 wrote:
| Every phone is nowadays a slab with a touch display so there
| hasn't been big surprises for a long time. Just gradual
| improvements and small new features once in awhile.
|
| To follow the scene I've noticed it's easier to follow new
| iPhone releases than multiple brands of Android phones. They
| are still more or less the same although the specs are in many
| cases a notch higher in Android phones as the Android seems to
| be more resource hungry.
|
| I got frustrated with the Samsung OS support (long time for new
| Android releases and no support for quite recent devices etc)
| and switched from SGS 9 to iPhone 13. Been switching between
| iOS and Android couple of times earlier and it's good way to
| avoid platform lock-in.
| baby wrote:
| biggest change for me are folding phones! They look like the
| next big thing (but so expensive atm)
| roody15 wrote:
| Have to agree here. Have the iPhone 11 Pro and still works
| great. Have worked with iPhone 12 and 13... honestly don't see
| any day to day difference in performance.
| ask_b123 wrote:
| I've got the iPhone 6 ans it still works fine. :)
|
| Although I sometimes wish I had the iPhone 6s so that I could
| update to the latest iOS version.
|
| But iOS 12 still gets security updates every once in a while
| (last one -- September 2021, and there were several last
| year) so I'm in no hurry to upgrade.
|
| Perhaps come the next iPhone SE.
| josefresco wrote:
| My fam has 4 iPhones: An 11 and 3 13's and we could also not
| tell you the main differences. Better uh... camera? Faster
| maybe? I know the 13's are chonky.
| burntoutfire wrote:
| 11 has the ridiculous rounded bezel, which makes it difficult
| to pick up, hard to handle in general and very easy to drop
| (it looks cooler though). Luckily, after years they've
| finally come to their senses and returned to the uglier, but
| 1000x more functional cornered bezel in 13.
| josefresco wrote:
| Never had a problem picking up my 11 but then again it's
| barely spent a day outside of it's case.
| tonguez wrote:
| "I've totally lost track of the iPhone product line. If you
| asked me what the difference between the iPhone 11/12/13 is I
| wouldn't be able to tell you."
|
| thanks for sharing!
| tw600040 wrote:
| // If you asked me what the difference between the iPhone
| 11/12/13 is I wouldn't be able to tell you
|
| And the difference between the last 3 versions of android
| phones would be what?
| mohanmcgeek wrote:
| The difference between the last 3 realme phones would be: a
| different camera, a different screen, a different brand of
| processor between each of these and they would have been
| released 3 weeks apart.
| baby wrote:
| here you go, probably the same thing for iPhones
| kcb wrote:
| Mine has a folding screen.
| cute_boi wrote:
| I would love to hold old phone, the only issue that lingers me
| is battery. I have changed many battery, but it seems I will
| never get same display time ....
| madeofpalk wrote:
| This is how I think about computers. I don't think it's a
| problem or really points to anything.
| wtmt wrote:
| > Phones aren't making big leaps anymore, it's not worth
| keeping up with.
|
| Couldn't be farther from the truth. Apple has never been about
| revolutionary change after revolutionary change every year, but
| the iterative improvements do make big leaps over time. For
| iPhones, the cameras and photo quality improve a lot at least
| once every two or three years. It's because you don't care that
| you don't know about the leaps, not the other way around.
| ProAm wrote:
| You can't copy music onto the iphone with a USB cable
| connected to your computer.
| massysett wrote:
| As someone who went from an iPhone 7 Plus to a 13 mini, I see
| GP's point. 13 mini is certainly a better phone. Better
| cameras, better battery life, bigger screen but smaller
| device. But I could see why someone would say this "isn't
| worth keeping up with" and not "big leaps." My 7 Plus photos
| were fine. It did everything I needed to do. On a daily basis
| the only benefit for me is that 13 mini is smaller.
|
| It was definitely worth the price to me but I see why someone
| would say it's not a big leap. And 7 to 13 is many years
| worth of upgrades.
| GrumpyNl wrote:
| Why not in the USA? Would it be to expensive?
| carlycue wrote:
| I am a big fan of Apple products. I prefer the industrial and
| software design of their products over the competition. However,
| the popularity of the iPhone among normal folks outside tech
| circles is interesting to me. There is very little change year to
| year because Apple has to play it safe and wait for features to
| mature but somehow they manage to sell 200-300 millions of them
| every year. I checked and the average selling price of iPhones is
| around $850. No Android manufacturer comes even close.
|
| I don't use Android phones but I have tried the recent Google
| Pixels, Samsung devices and other brands at the carrier store and
| they are great looking devices. The flagship iPhones don't stand
| out as much like they did 10 years ago.
|
| I get it. The iPhone is probably the greatest product in human
| history. The iPhone has made Apple an invaluable brand. I am just
| shocked how much normal everyday love the iPhone and keep buying
| them every year.
| diebeforei485 wrote:
| Most iPhone users don't buy a new iPhone every year. But even
| the staggered schedule results in new demand every year, even
| if people are only buying every 3-4 years.
| medvezhenok wrote:
| I think it's not just about the iPhone, it's about the
| ecosystem. iPhone, iPad, airpods/pro/max, airtags, apple watch,
| macbooks / handover. Even things like Apple Music and Apple TV
| and Apple News synced across devices (which I don't use).
|
| I thought airpods pro were overpriced and not worth it until I
| got a pair. Coincidentally, I never stuck with using wireless
| headphones until I got a pair of airpods pro. They make a bunch
| of the annoying things around wireless just go away. That's
| what Apple does well.
|
| If you buy into the whole ecosystem you get a lot of
| convenience features that are hard to recreate piece-meal (and
| certainly there are network benefits - i.e. Airdrop, iMessage).
| outside1234 wrote:
| This is great - we have to diversify away from China such that we
| can "turn them off" like we have done to Russia if they do
| something as crazy as Ukraine.
| hda111 wrote:
| When they "do something crazy" then TSMC isn't there any more.
| Can they manufacture iPhone without TSMC?
| ksec wrote:
| The Apple PR machines at work again. "Tries to reduce reliance on
| its Chinese supply chain." Wait until you see BOE OLED on your
| iPhone and YTMC NAND for storage.
|
| Appel started work on this a long time ago to avoid import tax
| and some other tax benefits. This along with many other Chinese
| brands assemble their phone in India to try and compete in the
| 2nd ( or largest ) market by population.
|
| But credit's where credits are due their virtue signalling are
| working extremely well.
| sxg wrote:
| It's entirely possible for one action to have multiple
| legitimate motivations behind it.
| smoldesu wrote:
| That's not the point of the parent's comment. They're saying
| that Apple is contradicting themselves by claiming that they
| need to reduce their reliance on Chinese labor while
| simultaneously sourcing more of their BOM from Chinese
| companies. That makes it very hard to take their claims here
| at face value.
| throwaway4good wrote:
| I think the BOE displays are already in the iPhone 13 (not
| pro).
| eunos wrote:
| BOE OLED, YTMC NAND, CXMT RAM, LiDAR from Robosense Chipset
| fabbed in SMIC foundry, data center in Hangzhou and core iOS
| developed by Shanghai team.
|
| A man can only hope so much.
| rs999gti wrote:
| Why not make the iPhone in America? A lot of Americans finance
| their phones with their contract.
|
| They would not even notice the price increase by making the phone
| domestically.
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| Plus the security community would really pay more for a
| domestically built device with stronger guarantees of no
| tampering
| kube-system wrote:
| Product decisions are simply not made that way. The security
| community is too small to be a relevant target market for a
| mass-market device.
|
| For those in the security community who put their money where
| their mouth is, there are communication devices with various
| supply chain controls in place.
| 2143 wrote:
| The rest of the world might notice the price increase.
|
| And if the price increases too much, it might be reduce the
| market share from overseas even further.
| mattnewton wrote:
| I think we just don't have the infrastructure to build the
| iPhone, it would be astronomically more expensive unless they
| essentially just did the assembly of parts here. The Mac pro
| being built in the US seems to be mostly assembly of parts made
| overseas, and iPhone assembly is much trickier and finicky.
| _-david-_ wrote:
| It would be more expensive regardless if they paid on a
| contract or paid for it outright. Maybe many wouldn't notice
| but others absolutely would.
|
| I would love an option to chose either America (or a similar
| Western country) or India/China. People who are willing to pay
| more for made in the west can and those don't care can go
| cheaper.
| smoldesu wrote:
| America doesn't have enough Uighur labor to exploit.
| RyanShook wrote:
| Would you pay 2-3x more for your next phone?
| throw_m239339 wrote:
| > Would you pay 2-3x more for your next phone?
|
| Why wouldn't he? These are already luxury items... I
| wouldn't, but I wouldn't buy an iphone at first place.
| lesgobrandon wrote:
| So now India will escape poverty thanks to Tim Apple!
| melling wrote:
| isn't Apple required to make iPhones in India to sell in that
| market?
| atlasunshrugged wrote:
| I think so, although my understanding was that historically
| Apple has focused on doing older phone models in India
| because they didn't think the market made sense for the
| newest devices (and/or because they didn't think the
| manufacturing capabilities were up to snuff) so if they're
| doing manufacturing of the newest models, I think it's a
| positive signal either for Apple's diversification, India's
| growing consumer purchasing power, or India's increased
| manufacturing capabilities.
| i67vw3 wrote:
| The current Govt stance is 'Make in India', meaning if a
| foreign company needs to sell a product they need to
| manufacture it in the country. If it is imported and then
| sold in the internal market, they straight put a high amount
| of import tax (can go above 100%).
|
| That is why Musk is having problem selling his imported
| Tesla's at a cheaper rate even if it is a eco-friendly
| product.
|
| Approximately, imported iphone 12 currently will be around
| $1000 and the one made in the country can go as low as $700
| to match the international price.
| unmole wrote:
| Not quite.
|
| > The current Govt stance is 'Make in India', meaning if a
| foreign company needs to sell a product they need to
| manufacture it in the country.
|
| The stated goal of the _Make in India_ campaign was " _to
| transform India into a global design and manufacturing
| export hub._ " The reality is the share of exports in the
| economy shrunk since 2014.
|
| The dear leader then embarked upon the ~Juche~ AatmaNirbhar
| path and now wants foreign companies to set up
| manufacturing in India and is offering production linked
| incentives in handpicked industries. FWIW, it seems to be
| working. But whether focusing on capital intensive
| _prestige_ manufacturing instead of labour intensive
| industries is the right approach remains to be seen.
|
| And protectionism has been the hallmark of Indian economic
| policy since independence. High tarriffs on _luxury_ goods
| like mobile phones or cars is not even remotely new.
| qualudeheart wrote:
| Is the Indian manufacturing industry for phones on par with
| China's yet?
| dartharva wrote:
| Unlikely, considering China has a headstart of several decades
| in electronics and consumer devices production. Not to mention
| a centralized, completely tuned governance and infrastructure
| policy for massive industries as against India's federal
| democratic government that has been mostly anti-capitalist
| until the 21st century.
| geodel wrote:
| No. It is mainly assembling products for which processes have
| been stabilized. Last time Apple did in India it was huge
| ruckus, with factory owner not paying workers for months,
| housing facilities and so on. This time hopefully it should be
| better.
|
| It would be small plant to cover some sales for high income
| people in low income countries. To put in perspective it is
| about ~5 million / year Iphones sales in India. In China that
| number is 7 million Iphones / month.
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