[HN Gopher] B773 at Paris on Apr 5th, airplane did not respond t...
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B773 at Paris on Apr 5th, airplane did not respond to commands
Author : dz0ny
Score : 103 points
Date : 2022-04-08 18:09 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (avherald.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (avherald.com)
| NelsonMinar wrote:
| If it's Boeing I ain't going.
| lizardactivist wrote:
| This is not normal, and they can't keep blaming it on having
| outsourced software work to low-paid Indian programmers like in
| the past.
|
| It would be interesting to tally up incidents like these, and see
| if there is some pattern to what type of plane, manufacturer,
| geographical location of incident etc.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| tschesnok wrote:
| Pilot here (just private): Alarm seem to indicate that the
| autopilot was not disengaged till much later. The question is
| why?
|
| Left turn may just be because of interference of the localizer..
| which the autopilot was following.
|
| With the autopilot on.. you have a fight on your hands until it
| disengages. (like in your Tesla :)
| JCM9 wrote:
| Expecting a lot of armchair NTSB investigators to rock up here,
| but honestly not much indication on what happened until the
| appropriate authorities can pull the data recorders out of the
| aircraft and see what was going on.
|
| Looking forward to reading what happened but until then...
|
| Interesting observation that the controllers and pilots were
| speaking French to each other. They're really not supposed to do
| that (English is the standard for ATC, in part so other aircraft
| can maintain situational awareness) but that happens a lot in
| France.
| Thaxll wrote:
| Pilots speak their own language in their country, everywhere
| else is in english.
|
| Why Im being downvoted?
| coin wrote:
| Because that's not always the case. There are plenty of non-
| English countries that use English even for native flights,
| eg Japan and Taiwan.
| [deleted]
| MobileVet wrote:
| Because English is the official ATC language used world wide.
| You must know and speak in English to fly.
|
| You may speak another language but English is first and
| relied upon.
| physhster wrote:
| In lots of countries, GA pilots don't speak English, but
| ATC does.
| bee_rider wrote:
| Hey be nice, southern accents might be kind of weird, but
| technically people from Georgia (the state) speak
| English.
| mechanical_bear wrote:
| GA = general aviation
| DocTomoe wrote:
| Point is, both of you are correct, and this argument is
| pointless. The native language is a common fallback during
| emergency situations, in situations where phraseology is
| insufficient, to expedite communication.
| pc86 wrote:
| Because you're wrong. The lingua franca of the air is
| English. I've heard ATC recordings in multiple countries and
| they're all in English, including ones between non-native
| English speakers. If you come on this frequency and you don't
| speak French, you have no context at all for what's going on.
| It's incredibly dangerous and it shouldn't ever happen.
| cameldrv wrote:
| It's not consistent. I believe in some countries it's all
| English. In Germany, big airports are English, and small
| airports are German. In the couple of small airports I've
| flown out of in France, it's French.
|
| I've heard of some countries where the controller will
| speak to you in whichever language you speak to them, which
| can lead to issues with situational awareness if you're the
| only one on the frequency speaking English and you don't
| know where all of the other planes are.
| _moof wrote:
| I'm afraid you're the one who is wrong. Yes, when a common
| language is needed, it is English, but native languages are
| explicitly allowed by EU law.
| smachiz wrote:
| Common language is always needed - this is CDG, a large
| airport with many flights. It is important that all
| planes have situational awareness. If half are speaking
| French, how does the pilot coming from Seoul have
| situational awareness? What if he's sitting on the runway
| and doesn't know that the ATC just gave clearance to land
| in French to a pilot on the runway he's currently on?
|
| ATC and pilots for commercial airlines should only be
| speaking English, regardless of their native tongue and
| where they are.
|
| It's pretty important - and it _is_ actually EU law:
| https://www.thinkspain.com/news-spain/29531/air-traffic-
| cont...
|
| Unfortunately it only applies to airports with 50k
| international flights per year - the bar should be much
| lower than that. But of course, CDG qualifies.
| hef19898 wrote:
| Situational awareness in controlled air space comes to a
| large degree from air traffic control. Not from listening
| to communicatiom between traffic control and other
| planes.
| [deleted]
| United857 wrote:
| I flew a lot of flights on United where they have a feature
| in the inflight entertainment system where you can listen in
| on the ATC comms (if the captain turns it on). I've found
| that:
|
| * French pilots generally speak in French in France or Quebec
|
| * Russian pilots speak in Russian in Russia
|
| * Mainland Chinese pilots speak in Mandarin in mainland China
| (but not in Taiwan or HK where English seems to be universal)
|
| * Spanish/Latin American pilots speak in Spanish in those
| places.
|
| Otherwise, it's generally English ATC including countries
| where it's otherwise not the native language, e.g. Japan,
| South Korea, Germany.
| Tuna-Fish wrote:
| Because doing so is a terrible practice, and I'm saying this
| as someone who is not a native english speaker.
|
| The communication between the tower and the plane is not just
| for their benefit. Everyone else is on the same frequency,
| listening in, and needs to be able to understand what is
| going on. Not everyone is going to be able to understand
| french, while everyone flying in controlled airspace is going
| to understand english.
| [deleted]
| hef19898 wrote:
| And France ain't a black hole like Africa when it comes to
| air traffic control. Also, using the language of the
| station is acceptable under official rules. French pilots
| speaking French in French air space are just fine.
| chris_va wrote:
| Generally ATC will switch to English when an English speaker
| comes onto the frequency, but local language is fine
| otherwise... country dependent, though. I haven't flow in
| France, but I understand it's mostly in French until someone
| calls in with English.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| I have flown in France and you are completely right.
| belter wrote:
| "Pursuant to requirements of the International Civil Aviation
| Organization (ICAO), ATC operations are conducted either in the
| English language or the language used by the station on the
| ground. In practice, the native language for a region is
| normally used"
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_traffic_control
| cft wrote:
| I just visited a traffic control room in Spain and an air
| traffic controller told me that Spanish and Latin American
| pilots speak Spanish to them (not only for landing flights, but
| also for transit flights say from Argentina to Germany while
| overflying Spain), and the same thing is practiced in France
| and Italy. So I am not sure you are right about "really not
| supposed to".
| t0mas88 wrote:
| English is one of the official ICAO languages and it's
| mandatory for all pilots at least in EASA and FAA rules to be
| English proficient. But as far as I know it's not forbidden
| to use any of the other languages if both controller and crew
| speak that language.
|
| Even the other way around, some small French airports have a
| listing as "French mandatory" for their radio frequencies.
| Which is quite a challenge for me as a foreign pilot not
| speaking French.
|
| But overall it would be safer if all ATC comms were done in
| English. Because it's better for situational awareness if you
| can understand what others in the same airspace are doing.
| radicaldreamer wrote:
| Korean Air had crash after crash until they forbid crew from
| speaking in Korean. Turns out cultural norms (highly
| hierarchical power structure) and honorifics were causing
| copilots to refrain from pointing out issues or pointing them
| out in an unclear way.
|
| A Colombian airline crashed in New York after running out of
| fuel due to similar deference to air traffic control.
| anonu wrote:
| The Colombian airline crash: they were speaking English
| though. NYC ATC is going to be brusque and quick... The new
| Yorker way. Not many cultures understand that...
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| ATC needs to be effective for all cultures that fly into
| that airport. If the new york one so deviates from the norm
| that it can cause crashes that is a very serious problem
| that needs to be addressed.
|
| That said I don't have any reason to think it actually does
| and you didn't supply one either. Are air traffic
| controllers even normally from the area where they work?
| Don't they get assigned?
| secondcoming wrote:
| There are JFK ATC conversations on youtube. Even I, an
| native English speaker but not American, have difficulty
| understanding them sometimes. They also sometimes come
| across as being dicks, but obviously only the audience-
| worthy conversations get uploaded
| pininja wrote:
| > Are air traffic controllers even normally from the area
| where they work? Don't they get assigned?
|
| They are highly specialized on local facilities, weather,
| traffic flows, etc. The New York Metro area is one, if
| not the, most complicated airspace's to control in the
| world. 4 major international airports (and tons of
| smaller airports/heliports) surrounding dense major
| cities with complicated weather, noise abatement
| procedures, and high congestion.
|
| There are dozens of air traffic controllers of all
| different seats (supervisors, arrivals, ground, towers,
| helicopters) in the region. It's a lot of coordinate.
|
| This video gives a nice 3 minute overview:
| https://www.faa.gov/tv/?mediaId=1042
| FL410 wrote:
| It's not so much that they deviate from the norm (quite
| the opposite, there's a manual that dictates exact
| phraseology), it's just that there's SO MUCH traffic that
| they don't have time to hold hands, and they expect you
| to be competent. In other words, there's very little time
| or room for error, and that can come off as rudeness.
|
| It is always the pilot's prerogative to overrule ATC (if
| there's a legitimate reason) and/or declare an emergency.
| And I assure you NY ATC would take it seriously if you
| do. They just don't have time to dance around.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| Sadly, there was a compounding issue that the pilots
| didn't declare an emergency or divert when they were
| running out of fuel. They thought asking for "priority"
| was sufficient, when the word has more urgency in their
| native language than it does in English. :(
|
| New York controllers were more abrasive than they were
| used to and they had trouble speaking up. The controllers
| also didn't communicate well amongst themselves and the
| pilots didn't know their request for a sooner landing to
| due low fuel was not passed on.
|
| Ultimately, the problem was the pilot's failure to follow
| procedures. With the controllers being disorganized
| either due to lack of procedure or failure to follow it.
| Either of them could have prevented it.
|
| Note: It is not sufficient to blame the pilots and move
| on. People make mistakes. Both sides need to be improved,
| because single points of failure kill people.
| cameldrv wrote:
| In my experience the NY ATC can be brusque in a way that
| can border on the unprofessional, and they tend to have
| an accent that can be hard to understand if you're not
| from there and you're listening on your crappy AM
| aviation radio. I assume that would go double for a non-
| native speaker of English.
|
| In the rest of the country that I've flown in, the
| controllers seem to be aiming for the voice of bored
| Apollo mission controllers.
| andbberger wrote:
| how high of a price are we willing to pay for kennedy
| steve
| mbubb wrote:
| some years back I worked on a project with Korean Air on
| exactly that topic, cockpit communication and honorifics... A
| compounding factor was that pilots and crew often came from
| military backgrounds.
|
| I learned about a number of air disasters and PanAm/KLM
| crash[1] in Tenerife 1977 really stuck with me. In the
| transcript a Dutch pilot says something like "We are now at
| take off" when he was indicating that the plane was in the
| process of taking off. (an idiomatic way of expression)
|
| There was already much stress on the situation as an incident
| at another airport caused massive traffic rearrangement
| across Europe. Under stress we revert to native ways of
| expression. I tried to keep this incident in the back of my
| mind throughout the project, and since...
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster
|
| edit - include the transcrpt:
| https://tailstrike.com/database/27-march-1977-klm-4805/
| tomatowurst wrote:
| What is really maddening about Korean neo-confucian society
| is this automatic social hierarchy based on your age, as if
| to suggest someone who is older than you is automatically
| infallible and has authority over you. It was exported to
| Japan (Senpai and kohai is a direct model of Korean sunbae,
| hoobae) but it doesn't seem to practice Confucianism this
| strictly, there really is no other countries that take it
| this extremely.
|
| It reminds me of the Japanese invasion of Chosun dynasty,
| how the rigid military/confucian structure made
| communication impossible and largely allowed unopposed
| landings by Hideyoshi's army.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| It isn't based on individual age. I know Korean cousins
| with a 20 year age difference where the _younger_ one
| gets the honorific because his lineage is older and he 's
| an earlier generation. They never speak Korean with each
| other.
| robocat wrote:
| As a low-ranking middle aged average white guy from a
| small 1st world country: if I go to Korea can I get a
| status boost?
|
| I have seen low-rank white dudes get status upgrades in
| other Asian countries for a variety of reasons. One
| architect told me how he was hanging with high status
| Indonesians, and how he could name-drop NZ politicians
| because our culture means low-rank citizens can
| personally know people in high-rank positions. Perhaps I
| can manipulate the Korean status game in my favour
| because my background is somewhat unmeasurable.
| X6S1x6Okd1st wrote:
| You'd exist largely outside of the neo confucianist
| status structure. You'd be a foreigner in a way that is
| hard to understand if you've spent all your life in the
| heterogeneous melting pots.
|
| I'm many cases this would apply even if you are Korean
| but grew up outside the hierarchy (i.e. grew up in the
| US)
|
| You'd have some status as a us citizen as a white person,
| but it's complicated and a double edged sword
| The5thElephant wrote:
| That was a Malcolm Gladwell theory that has been debunked,
| particularly here:
| http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2013/07/culturalism-
| gladwell-...
|
| In general I tend to question much of Gladwell's ideas these
| days seeing how many of them have been demonstrated to be
| wrong.
| radicaldreamer wrote:
| Aw man, this is a real bummer. I thought I'd weaned myself
| off of Gladwell, but his fabulism is embedded in my
| memories from way back :( he's so good at it!
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| Wow, are all Koreans that bad at arguing? (/s) How do you
| even _begin_ to compare a solitary sport like golf to the
| team effort involved in flying a passenger jet?
|
| The influence of cultural imbalances on aviation safety is
| not a subject for debate, and hasn't been since the
| Tenerife disaster in which a junior officer hesitated to
| argue with a respected senior pilot. This blogger may be
| well-intentioned but they haven't bothered to do their
| homework. Point goes to Gladwell on this one, as flawed as
| his conclusions have been in other areas.
| yongjik wrote:
| Malcolm Gladwell may have overstated his theory, but
| askakorean is itself a biased source, and IMHO shouldn't be
| trusted too much. It is a fact that (1) Korean Air had a
| string of preventable accidents during that time, (2) pilot
| hierarchy in communication was believed to be a major
| factor that led to the Guam disaster, and (3) later Korean
| Air mandated everybody to speak English in the cockpit.
|
| How much (3) contributed to the improved safety record is
| anyone's guess.
| bakashi wrote:
| jahnu wrote:
| People really should be very wary of anything Gladwell says
| in recent years. The fisking The Bomber Mafia got should be
| evidence enough.
| sbierwagen wrote:
| >A Colombian airline crashed in New York after running out of
| fuel due to similar deference to air traffic control.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avianca_Flight_52
| smachiz wrote:
| Not just deference. They crashed without ever declaring an
| emergency. Ultimately, ATC could have been better - but
| that was a pilot CRM issue.
| C4K3 wrote:
| Why is it possible for a pilot to "fight" the autopilot? From my
| (layman's) point of view, it seems logical that either the pilot
| would be in control or the autopilot would be in control, but not
| both at the same time.
| [deleted]
| TheMagicHorsey wrote:
| Is it possible they did not disengage the auto-pilot?
| christkv wrote:
| I thought the auto pilot disengages automatically when you move
| the controls?
| chociej wrote:
| On this aircraft you must move the column with something like
| 20-25 pounds of force before the autopilot decides that you
| are overriding it.
| assttoasstmgr wrote:
| If you listen to the ATC audio someone posted above, you hear
| the autopilot disconnect sound at 0:56 which is well after
| the incident began and all the other alarms were going off.
| This doesn't make sense. Did they not realize the plane was
| still on autopilot and were trying to hand-fly it and
| override the controls? I'm not jumping to any conclusions but
| it's very possible this was a normally functioning airplane.
| DocTomoe wrote:
| It does.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| The 777 pilot who analyzed and explained what was going on
| says otherwise. It will cause a master warning or something
| along those lines, but not cause AP to disengage. Which
| makes sense.
| hef19898 wrote:
| Let's leave the incident investigation to the
| professional investigators anf authorities, shall we?
| FlyingAvatar wrote:
| Source? In the Juan Brown (a 777 pilot YouTuber) video
| (https://youtu.be/cslSQB5mgyc) referenced in another
| comment, he specifically states that you must physically
| fight the autopilot for control if it's engaged.
| EMM_386 wrote:
| There is a further discussion among pilots here:
|
| https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/646054-air-france-b777-c...
| stuff4ben wrote:
| Very good discussion. Interesting comment:
|
| > Originally Posted by Capt Kremin: There was nothing wrong
| with the aircraft. The crew had the wrong runway/approach
| selected and tried to override the AP manually. The subsequent
| go-around was incorrectly handled in that they retracted the
| gear before the initial stage of flap, hence the config
| warning.
| t0mas88 wrote:
| Note that the rest of the posts after him disagree and point
| out that they were on a stable approach to the left most
| runway and the aircraft then turned a lot more to the left.
| That's not something that would happen if it was only a wrong
| runway selection.
| anonu wrote:
| Hate to bring up the AF crash in the middle of the ocean from
| Brazil to France. This was, at the very root of it, a cultural
| issue. Pure speculation (because it's fun to speculate): this
| seems related to similar issues in the cockpit.
| smcl wrote:
| I don't see how it's similar.
|
| > While climbing out and levelling off at 4000 feet the crew
| reported they had problems with _the aircraft not following
| commands_ , the aircraft did not follow the commands
|
| While there is little culture shared between human and
| airplane, this doesn't seem to be a cultural issue at all :)
| touisteur wrote:
| How do you come to that conclusion? To the best of my
| understanding it was at least 3 things:
|
| - strange choice of going through complex weather (somehow
| foreseen)
|
| - failure (icing iirc) of the pitot airspeed sensors, raising
| multiple failures in the cockpit, and disengaging autopilot and
| putting the aircraft in a more hands-on (I'm not using the
| proper terms, there should be 'law' or 'envelope' somewhere)
| leading to a loss of trust of the crew in the cockpit. To me
| _that_ was the linchpin, automation-exit failure.
|
| - combined (sum of) commands from the pilot and copilot. They
| should have tried gaining speed (repetitive stall warnings) but
| the copilot was (in panic) trying to gain altitude while the
| pilot was putting the nose down. They both thought the aircraft
| wasn't answering their command.
|
| - lack of crew communication. The 1st pilot was off in cabin,
| leaving his two cockpit crew without a clear chain of command,
| and the 2 remaining crew never talked about steps they were
| taking.
|
| How do you square it was a cultural issue? Genuinely curious,
| as I make a point of sending the transcript to all the happy
| 'autopilot the low hanging fruit and let the human handle the
| special cases' dreamers I meet :-)
| omnicognate wrote:
| > about 4.17nm before the runway
|
| Nautical miles?
|
| Read it as nanometres initially....
| paulmd wrote:
| yes, aviation generally uses nautical measures (nautical miles
| and knots of speed) when using the imperial system
| dz0ny wrote:
| Tower radio recording:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzCNKhFOPqU
| bitcharmer wrote:
| Thank you for sharing.
|
| Listening to the distress in the pilot's tone made me uneasy.
| This is probably a good indication that the situation was very
| serious.
|
| What's going on with those Boeing airplanes?
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > What's going on with those Boeing airplanes?
|
| I don't think it's only Boeing airplanes where the autopilot
| will resist your attempts to override it with manual control
| inputs. If anything, I kinda expect that Airbus planes are
| even more opinionated about that type of behavior.
| nolok wrote:
| Damn, the guy doesn't say the plane doesn't respond to commands
| but "l'avion fait n'importe quoi" which implies more like the
| responses to commands are not the one expected.
| saalaa wrote:
| The pilot said "[...] un probleme de commandes de vol,
| l'avion a fait a peu pres n'importe quoi [...]" and it
| translates as "[...] flight controls issue, the plane did
| just about whatever [...]".
|
| To add a bit more, it's interesting to note that at several
| points in the recording the pilots can be heard fighting the
| controls and apparently requiring force for that
| (https://youtu.be/VzCNKhFOPqU?t=25 for example). I know the
| two ariplanes are unrelated but this was also the case for
| 737 Max IIRC.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > apparently requiring force for that
|
| Yeah, when autopilot is engaged it requires a good bit of
| force to override it without just turning it off first.
| saalaa wrote:
| I'm absolutely not knowledgeable on this topic so double
| check everything I say.
|
| I think the issue on the 737 Max was that there's been a
| known and studied system (called the MCAS IIRC) on Boeing
| planes that overrides pilot controls under some specific
| pre-determined circumstances and that system had been
| buffed to compensate for design flaws that were
| discovered too late to be corrected. On top of being
| faulty, that buffed system was also way outside of its
| initial intent and purpose (or rather the parameters
| guiding its operation were changed so much that it should
| have been addressed as a separate system and mandated
| specific training while they were trying to portray the
| plane as a simple evolution requiring no pilot re-
| training from earlier versions of the 737).
|
| So, to me, it looks like yet another issue with a system
| overriding pilot controls for whatever reason.
|
| More generally, this falls into that weird pattern of
| relying on external sensors which starts a chain of bad
| decisions leading to accidents (this was also a sensor
| issue with the Air France 447, although the chain was
| largely human this time, the pilots realizing way too
| late their repeated mistake).
| sokoloff wrote:
| This is a B777-300, which does not have MCAS. The 737-Max
| had MCAS added because of the larger engines on that
| model than prior 737s. This is not an issue "on [all]
| Boeing planes" (which, to be fair you didn't directly
| say, but what you did say was pretty ambiguous and could
| easily [perhaps even most naturally] be read to have
| meant that).
| saalaa wrote:
| Sorry, this happens a lot to me. For the record I'm not
| trying to discredit Boeing. I do have issues organizing
| and expressing my thoughts which results in less than
| ideal communication.
| t0mas88 wrote:
| It disengages when you fight it. With the associated and
| very recognizable autopilot disengage sound. I'm sure
| there is more to this story than "crew mistake" as some
| seem to imply here.
| herpderperator wrote:
| Why aren't they speaking English? I thought the communications
| were always supposed to be in English.
| robonerd wrote:
| Many of the early innovators in aviation were French or in
| France, and consequently, the French language has a lot of
| influence in aviation. The terms _' mayday'_ and _' pan-pan'_
| both originate from French. Flight recorders around the world
| are labelled in English and French. If English were not the
| primary language for aviation, it would probably be French
| instead.
| tptacek wrote:
| Air crews tend to speak their home languages in their home
| countries, according to another video posted upthread.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| Because shit is hitting the fan as far as the pilots are
| concerned and they're going to default to their native
| language. Informing the tower of WTF is going on is
| secondary.
| rhcom2 wrote:
| I too thought that but apparently it is not the case.
|
| https://internationalaviationhq.com/2019/11/23/language-
| used...
|
| > The language used by Air Traffic Control is quite simple:
| whichever the pilot chooses to use. Normally this is between
| English and whatever the language is of the place that they
| are flying to/from. Although English is the only official
| language.
| jeffrallen wrote:
| Interesting. I listen to lots of ATC, and I'm fluent in
| French. It was really noticable how much less legible
| French is on the radio, stuff like AF zero un and AF zero
| onze differ by so little you cannot distinguish them.
|
| Radio English has specific alternative prononciations,
| which help avoid this, like "fife" and "niner".
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| Are you a native french speaker? I'm fluent in a couple
| languages and all but my native one are insanely hard to
| understand over radio. Even with the special
| pronunciations there are a lot of nearly
| indistinguishable sounds in english, and I'm not sure
| those sounds are even apparent to a non-native speaker
| who isn't specifically trained in them. It's very
| possible they are using an equivalent but we can't hear
| it without some practice.
| t0mas88 wrote:
| It comes with practice and ATC recordings sound way worse
| than how it sounds in the aircraft. Because it's recorded
| with a basic radio on the ground (causing much more
| interference) instead of a much better one that's up in
| the air with great reception.
| sokoloff wrote:
| This is very true. I'm a native English speaker and ~1200
| hour pilot. I have no trouble with the radio in the
| airplane, but many of the VAS Aviation and other
| recreations that do not come from released ATC tapes are
| quite hard to understand.
|
| There's also a defined cadence and order for many
| transmissions. If you read off the automated weather or a
| clearance in the usual order, it's easy to transcribe it.
| If you read it off out of order, it would sound the same
| [and just as difficult] to a non-pilot, but would be much
| more difficult for a pilot to write down.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| The official way of saying numbers in French is to spell
| each digit separately and 1 is "unite". So 011 is zero,
| unite, unite.
|
| However _if it is clear enough and there is no ambiguity_
| , the common way of saying numbers can be used, so zero
| onze is acceptable. In normal conditions, no french
| speaker will mistake "onze" for "un", the latter should
| be "unite" anyways.
|
| The main problem with "un" is that it sounds like
| "hein?", which means something like "huh?", the kind of
| meaningless words that punctuate conversations without
| even noticing.
| jean_tta wrote:
| French military radio procedures also have specific
| pronunciations to disambiguate words. The fact that it is
| not used (assuming it is not) in ATC radio is not a
| feature of the French language.
| PlatinumHarp wrote:
| Per the ICAO:
|
| Pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language
| proficiency in either English or the language used by the
| station on the ground.
| haunter wrote:
| SERA.14015 Language to be used in air-ground communication
|
| Regulation (EU) 2016/1185
|
| (a) The air-ground radiotelephony communications shall be
| conducted in the English language or in the language normally
| used by the station on the ground.
|
| https://www.easa.europa.eu/document-library/easy-access-
| rule...
| belter wrote:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30935269
| ehaskins wrote:
| Worth watching Juan Brown's reaction, he's a 777 pilot.
|
| https://youtu.be/cslSQB5mgyc
| drcongo wrote:
| Thanks. It's wild seeing what the web looks like for people
| without ad blockers.
| geocrasher wrote:
| Juan Brown has an excellent explanation of what is known so far,
| along with an analysis of the alarms heard in the background.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cslSQB5mgyc
|
| Juan (an airline 777 pilot) also goes into why it is _just fine_
| that they were all speaking French in France.
| buildsjets wrote:
| I suspect that similar to the Asiana 777 at SFO, this will turn
| out to be autopilot mode confusion on the part of the pilot,
| coupled with a late charge of instruction from ATC, and failure
| to monitor the flight path while trying to make the transition.
| t0mas88 wrote:
| Very very unlikely. Every pilot knows exactly how to disconnect
| the autopilot, we train things like autopilot failure and
| recently trim runaway (which is closely related) in the sim.
|
| Nobody would be screaming "stop it, stop it" instead of doing
| something if the button was working fine.
| selectodude wrote:
| Air France pilots aren't known for their quality.
| harpiaharpyja wrote:
| The title could have been translated better, as one of the
| comments on the source pages notes. It would be more accurate to
| say that the aircraft was not responding to controls/control
| inputs, scary stuff.
| Animats wrote:
| Too soon to say much. Comments so far are not very useful. Give
| it a few days until the flight data recorders are read.
| emerged wrote:
| I stopped reading the comments when one was literally generated
| using AI and said as much.
| JPLeRouzic wrote:
| Yesterday on France info, someone (a military pilot?) said the
| black boxes were probably already read and he said that it's
| probably not a generic problem of Boeing 777 ans as the
| administration in charge would have already told it if it was
| the case.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| >Too soon to say much.
|
| Not that I disagree but to many that means this is the perfect
| time to earn cheap internet virtue points baselessly
| speculating.
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