[HN Gopher] Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Comb...
___________________________________________________________________
Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator
Author : cosenal
Score : 99 points
Date : 2022-04-06 08:06 UTC (14 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (sifted.eu)
(TXT) w3m dump (sifted.eu)
| mxschumacher wrote:
| It is misleading to call Exor the owner of Ferrari, they hold a
| 22.9% economic interest [0].
|
| [0] https://www.exor.com/pages/companies-
| investments/companies/f...
| samatman wrote:
| Well if nominative determinism has any weight, they have a great
| name for it.
|
| It could be better, I suppose; if there are any large holding
| companies out there named Nande or Norr they might have stiff
| competition.
| bjelkeman-again wrote:
| It is a lot of work to create a business ecosystem that is able
| to nurture startups. I have some experience gathered over the
| years from Silicon Valley, London, Amsterdam, Bangalore, and now
| most recently Stockholm. There are drawbacks and benefits to all
| of them. The EU based startup environments suffer heavily from
| relatively smaller amounts of money available for the same thing
| (often an order of magnitude), and a fragmented starting market.
| The startup market in the EU is also fragmented over nearly every
| capital city in each country.
|
| In Stockholm, where I am now, there has been reasonable progress.
| But it feels like we are nearly where the Valley was in 2000.
| (That is exaggerated, it is better)
|
| A key takeaway for me from efforts like what the article
| describes is that a lot of it feels like cargo culting. "If we
| are more like Y-Combinator (replace with suitable other aspect of
| the Valley) we will succeed." Where what is missing are things
| that are hard to bootstrap: large amounts of capital, capital
| willing to take risks, investors that invest in bold efforts,
| experienced and successful investors, successful entrepreneurs
| that go another round, a common market with similar rules,
| regulations and language; and more things I am missing (much
| mentioned in other comments).
|
| Things are getting better, but it is still a challenge in the EU.
| However, looking at some of the valuations I see in the US, it
| appears there are bargains to be had in the top EU startup spots,
| where Stockholm is a good candidate.
| dotancohen wrote:
| Title: "Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y
| Combinator"
|
| Piacentini's own words: "We have no ambition to emulate the likes
| of Y Combinator"
|
| I agree with HN's reluctance to alter titles, but in cases where
| the title itself a lie, clickbait, or gross exaggeration I think
| that it should be edited.
| gman83 wrote:
| The full quote: "We have no ambition to emulate the likes of Y
| Combinator, or even Kima Ventures, from the start. But we
| aspire to what they have built -- our ultimate goal is to get
| to that level.". When read like this it sounds like eventually
| he would like to build something like Y Combinator.
| rmbyrro wrote:
| I was also confused
| cosenal wrote:
| I posted it with the original title from Sifted after
| reading ""Our application format will be familiar, similar
| to that of Y Combinator's -- simplicity will be key for
| deploying capital fast," says Piacentini."
| jtwaleson wrote:
| I've thought of setting up a retreat center in southern Italy for
| tech teams. Like: take your team and work together remotely for a
| week. The center will have high end equipment, good furniture,
| whiteboards etc. Why southern Italy? The climate is great, there
| are lots of subsidies available, land is cheap and cost of living
| is low. I'd call it Sicilian Valley.
| muxator wrote:
| Please do.
| jbverschoor wrote:
| Building a Ferrari is just some wheels and red paint.. I think
| anyone can build that as well.
| wlecometo wrote:
| Well the main issue in italy is not lack of funding or lack of
| talent but rather the amount of taxation companies had to go
| through and the uncertainty behind a big and complex legal system
| which makes an average of 8 years for civil processing .
|
| these two things alone and the fact there are better places in
| europe to make a startup (hint: netherlands, germany, france,
| czech republic, romania, poland) makes me wonder if they will
| succeed or is this a way to collect IP rather than helping idea
| to grow? maybe they saw that this is exactly what most of
| incubators are doing, in the end lots of startups in Italy were
| made by university professors making startups out of a research
| paper from one of their student, so i can see why an incubator
| could be interested in this.
|
| yes i know, sorry for the negativity i've been there and i
| experienced this first hand.
| gumby wrote:
| > the amount of taxation companies had to go through and the
| uncertainty behind a big and complex legal system which makes
| an average of 8 years for civil processing .
|
| It's the big, complex legal system that gets me, and the
| mentality that keeps it in place. There's some sort of minimum
| required level (countries with too little don't thrive either)
| but when I think of Italy or India I think the complexity of
| simply getting anything done is discouraging.
|
| OTOH I don't really care much about taxes and never have. Most
| of them are on profits, and if you're making profit, great!
| There are of course a plethora of bullshit excise taxes like
| business licenses, but in the main they have never added up to
| a lot in any business I've run. And of course I depend on
| things like fire brigade, a legal system (not that I've needed
| to sue anyone or be sued), clean air, roads, etc etc so paying
| taxes doesn't seem that bad in principle. Those things need to
| be paid anyway, and sometimes leaving them out of taxes is far
| worse (consider America's ridiculous health system)
| zepearl wrote:
| I was about to start writing the exact same thing (you wrote
| it better than how I would have hehe), but I then saw your
| post => thank you :)
| rosndo wrote:
| The problem is that some countries offer vastly better ROI on
| taxes than others.
|
| Taxes aren't a problem, shit ROI on taxes is.
| brthsim wrote:
| blaser-waffle wrote:
| Don't forget the culture of corruption, esp. in the south of
| the country.
| hardware2win wrote:
| Why poland?
| epolanski wrote:
| Yes, doing business in Italy is hard, but when your company is
| doing poorly financially or is having issues it's the
| government that is going to pay your worker's salaries. Do
| places with low taxes have this?
|
| And the education of your worker's is paid by the government,
| so you don't get employees that are desperate to pay their
| student loans.
|
| And so is healthcare, so you don't have to pay no insurance
| (you may, but your workers don't depend on it).
|
| Also, new companies can easily get public funding. Or loans
| with no interests that are covered by the government. Do
| companies in different countries get that? Can you get millions
| in loans at 0 interest that if you can't pay the government
| will in US?
|
| New companies get a very friendly, near 0 taxation for few
| years, and the more people you employ (especially if young) the
| more slack on taxes you get. Do companies in countries with
| lower taxes get that?
|
| Mind you, I still believe doing business in Italy is too
| expensive and beurocracy too high, but there's also very
| serious benefits of doing it that you don't get in silicon
| valley where the first wrong swing kills your business and
| company.
| bloodyplonker22 wrote:
| Wow, what a ridiculous comment. What you are mention is only
| a good environment for lifestyle businesses, not startups and
| growth companies who are usually more innovative and have the
| possibility to create massive net positives in a country's
| economy.
| hef19898 wrote:
| If a small conpany is creating enough profits to finance
| one persons life, well, that's just great.
|
| IMHO the real "life style" businesses are those VC backed
| start-ups never reaching profiatbility. Because in those
| cases the founders get to play CxO on other people's money,
| living this "entrepreneur" life style. One start-up after
| the other.
| samatman wrote:
| The sum of these affordances adds up to a market for lemons.
|
| A startup can hire Italians anywhere, certainly anywhere in
| EU, so the benefit of pair-for education doesn't require
| Italian jurisdiction.
|
| Everything else sounds really handy if your company is
| destined for failure, since there are so many ways to get a
| bailout or take a "loan" with no interest which, hey, you
| also don't have to pay it back! That's a grant coupled to a
| later and optional donation, not a loan.
|
| A full-time employer pays for their employee's health care,
| it doesn't matter if it comes out of taxes or not.
|
| Business in Italy is too expensive, and bureaucracy too high,
| and you have done a _fantastic job of explaining why that is_
| while touting it as benefits!
|
| If I looked into the relationship between nepotism and
| getting access to all this free money, would I be surprised?
| Bet I wouldn't be.
| dmitriid wrote:
| > fantastic job of explaining why that is while touting it
| as benefits
|
| Because, as we all know, all businesses are IT startups
| that can afford to pay for comprehensive medical care,
| every employee of every company can afford the dissolution
| of a company (or just an emergency) etc.
| johnthewise wrote:
| One could argue that IT startups are all that matter.
| samatman wrote:
| One wouldn't even have to argue such a thing to limit the
| discussion in that way for an "Italian Y Combinator"
| article.
| dmitriid wrote:
| IT companies don't exist in a vacuum.
|
| Also, there's a reason American IT companies frequently
| list medical insurance, parental leave, vacation tim as
| _benefits_. You know, things you don 't even think about
| are listed as _benefits_.
|
| Why would anyone want this insanity is beyond me.
| miohtama wrote:
| > adds up to a market for lemons
|
| I have witnessed this first hand in Finland where
| government grants can generate a lot of inflow for early
| startups. Because bureocrats cannot judge which companies
| should stay alive or not, everyone gets money resulting to
| zombie startups that have not managed to scale even after
| 10 years.
| epolanski wrote:
| You kind of missed some of my crucial points: starting a
| business on low budget in Italy is possible. People with
| the right ideas and knowledge can start ventures easier
| than they would elsewhere in the world, especially silicon
| valley where you're much more dependent on (important)
| private capital.
|
| In Italy, that's not really the case, between lower
| salaries, no interest loans and government funding we have
| had many great businesses growing out of people that
| would've had no chance of convincing venture capitalists.
|
| And as I said, yes, it's true, Italy is not the best place
| to start a business, and yes, it's true that there are
| places where you can find some if not more of the same
| benefits with less of the drawbacks, but still you're
| severely underestimating the many benefits and convenience
| you can get in Italy where you can start businesses you
| would've never had the chance too in places where there is
| no public funding and help for aspiring entrepeneurs.
| onphonenow wrote:
| You can startup an AI automated car driving startup more
| easily in italy than you can in SV?
|
| In SV you can get 10M+ in capital pretty easily - close
| relative with one prior startup did just that recently.
| It's VERY low overhead, you can hire (and fire) folks
| pretty simply. The due diligence on that $10M didn't even
| require audited financials or anything.
|
| I don't know anywhere in italy even close to that.
| yakak wrote:
| The buying power of 10m in SV is equivalent to what, 2m
| in Italy?
|
| There's definitely a lot of sweet VC money to collect
| with a business office in SV, but I have no idea why a
| large company investing a lot of its own money would
| choose to throw 4/5ths of it away.
| nickpp wrote:
| > People with the right ideas and knowledge can start
| ventures easier than they would elsewhere in the world,
| especially silicon valley
|
| In reality they don't though. So why do you think that
| is?
| oneoff786 wrote:
| That's ok for a barebones entrepreneur. That's not great
| for people who want to hire talented workers who want
| real comp.
| epolanski wrote:
| Everything's a trade off.
|
| Also, many of those barebones entrepeneurs end up making
| money, differently from billion-dollar ventures that have
| yet to post a profit after a decade but can boast highly
| paid engineers behind very questionable quality
| overbloated software.
| samatman wrote:
| > _People with the right ideas and knowledge can start
| ventures easier [in Italy than Silicon Valley]_
|
| Would you be so kind as to provide a metric, so I can
| demonstrate conclusively that this isn't true?
|
| I'm basing this on intuition, which is in turn based on
| numerous Italian software developers I've met in
| California. Do they have the wrong ideas and knowledge?
|
| Of course not, they went where they could run a business
| without interference.
| [deleted]
| AlotOfReading wrote:
| Curiously, other people are always quick to point out how
| California is a very difficult place to operate a company
| in when the focus is on companies "fleeing" to low tax
| states like Texas.
|
| I'd imagine it is easier to start a tech venture in the
| valley than Italy, but that's just because there's an
| established ecosystem for it and you're not blazing new
| ground. The various particularities of government are
| relatively insignificant in comparison. That's why you
| can have similarly vibrant startup scenes under political
| environments as different as the US, China, and Israel.
| b20000 wrote:
| i am from another EU country and getting funding beyond 50k
| from the government is really hard. vcs and angels are super
| conservative and take no risks. the government is not paying
| your employees if you cannot pay them... and you are
| personally liable for their social security taxes. i doubt
| that italy can do what you say here as most EU countries
| handle things similarly. also, if things get harder than you
| thought they were going to be and can't pay the government
| back you will go bankrupt and potentially lose your assets
| which you might have invested in substantially yourself. i
| will never take government loans again.
| dr-detroit wrote:
| J_cst wrote:
| Hi from Italy. What the parent is saying is correct/partially
| correct. Still Italy is a very difficult place to do business
| for a number of factors: burocracy, cultural attitude (who
| you know means too much), strict labour legislation, slow
| justice system just to mention the first few which come to my
| mind. If you come from abroad the above factors become
| 100times harder to manage/understand. We have a lot of
| talents and the same amount of weaknesses. Not easy at all.
| Still a great place to visit and to spend holidays in. Sorry
| I don't mean to be harsh.
| rev_d wrote:
| As a recently recognised Italian citizen, I have to agree--
| it's not the appropriate place to form a startup.
|
| There's a surprising number of things that involve the
| legal system, and the legal system moves at a glacial pace
| --in some cases, taking months between when a ruling
| becomes final and when it becomes enforceable. Encounter
| any one of those situations, and it's going to be a huge
| time & resource drain for the company.
|
| Perhaps it'd make sense to headquarter the startup in a
| more favourable country (Estonia?) and then have a major
| branch office in Italy (for climate and talent reasons).
| rmbyrro wrote:
| Also missing in Italy are the networking and connections to
| relevant people and organizations.
|
| I think very few founders look for money at YCombinator,
| they're primarily interested in the connections.
| [deleted]
| highhedgehog wrote:
| I will believe it when I see it
| 7723 wrote:
| Reminds me of: https://www.h-farm.com/en which attempted that in
| the past.
| lnxg33k1 wrote:
| As Italian, when I read something involving Agnellis willing to
| do something for Italy, I am a bit scared about taxpayers money,
| like Fiat has always got tax discounts and subsidies and as a
| thank you has closed factories, and fired people, can we just
| keep the people related to Agnellis in the Silicon Valley?
| santiagobasulto wrote:
| Off topic! I just moved to Italy, living in Torino now. How's
| the startup ecosystem in Italy? I've seen some interesting
| Blockchain-related groups at the Politecnico, but not much
| after that.
| brthsim wrote:
| lnxg33k1 wrote:
| I live in the Netherlands :D but am from Naples originally so
| I know little about Turin :'( sovvy
| mat_jack1 wrote:
| check this coworking space: https://toolboxcoworking.com/
| there are several tech meetups of nice people and it's also
| hosting the local fablab: https://fablabtorino.org/
|
| after covid there are less meetups, but I'm sure it's going
| to pick up again
| kwere wrote:
| there is something around universities and in Milano,Rome.
| Its really small scale, low pay, very high risk. I believe
| engineering/product based startup are more fit for the
| italian market and offer more exit options, mostly M&A.
|
| In Turin there is I3P [www.i3p.it], a serious incubator
| managed by the Torino Politechnich
| mattrighetti wrote:
| You could checkout the polihub incubator/accelerator in
| Milan, most of the startup they fund are hardware/mechanics
| related.
| albybisy wrote:
| this is what i think as well. When there is Agnelli family
| involved is just for have something from the state in some way
| or another. But we'll see. I hope to be wrong.
| riffraff wrote:
| FIAT is not EXOR, a ton of EXOR initiatives came and went
| (remember Ciaoweb?) without government intervention.
|
| The issue with car manufacturing is that it employees a fuckton
| of people, so it becomes political.
|
| Also, if there is a person who can run this thing well is mr.
| Piacentini, so I would not be too negative.
| baybal2 wrote:
| gw67 wrote:
| It's just a stereotype, come on!
| lnxg33k1 wrote:
| https://www.google.com/search?q=fiat+lays+off
| https://www.google.com/search?q=fiat+subsidies I don't think
| so, if I am honest when I was young the few things I remember
| hearing continuosly from news was fiat laying off and fiat
| getting money
| gw67 wrote:
| Yeah, but isn't related to this initiative. You are
| referring to something happened in the past for another
| company. It doesn't make sense.
| lnxg33k1 wrote:
| In Naples we say you can put all the rum you want a turd
| can't become a baba (pastry).. so they can rename it but
| its always the same dna I guess? We will see ^^
| mattrighetti wrote:
| > The exodus of tech talent and lack of startup creation in Italy
| has worried investors
|
| From my experience I can tell that most people here don't want to
| waste time in a startup with its high risk factor, and it's even
| more worrying if you come from a college environment where you
| expect that _Let's do this, I don't care_ kind of attitude. The
| majority of new grads prefer a secure (and most of the time
| underpaid) position to pay the bills at the end of the month.
| It's saddening to see but a lot of my friends, super smart ones
| included, just opt for low level companies that will never make
| them grow and will give them the minimum amount of money to make
| a living (that's what they tell me) while in pretty much the rest
| of UE they will pay 3x that amount.
|
| I think the mentality in Italy is totally different, I know only
| one person that would have jumped in the startup world at the
| time and quickly got discouraged because he didn't know how to
| get funded (probably not the first thing I would consider if I
| think I have a great idea). The rest of my colleagues wouldn't
| even want to listen to startup ideas.
|
| Also, I think we Italians don't have the market for new tech
| related startup, our population is very old and they don't really
| care about new stuff/services coming out as you would expect,
| launching in the US would be a totally different story.
|
| It's a multi variable problem, the lack of ideas is just the tip
| of the iceberg. It's not that there is a startup creation
| problem, it's that the few people that want to try out the
| startup world are smart enough to do it elsewhere where higher
| chances of success lie.
|
| And don't get me started on the bureaucracy part, I'm not well
| informed on that because I'm pretty sure it would just waste my
| time.
| zoobab wrote:
| "> The exodus of tech talent and lack of startup creation in
| Italy has worried investors"
|
| Working hard for investors and shareholders!
| skrbjc wrote:
| The relationship between people who build companies and work
| in those companies can be mutually beneficial with investors.
| kungito wrote:
| My impression was that in the US you get compensated pretty
| nicely while in a startup. The whole idea is to get funded so
| that you can attract talent with crazy salaries. Or did I get
| something wrong?
| sethhochberg wrote:
| It varies a lot based on the stage of company you are
| joining. Very small startups often pay relatively little in
| cash and rely on equity to attract talent, because the early
| stage hires are at least theoretically interested in the
| vision and potential upside of the business growing, and
| cashflow is tight at early stage companies.
|
| Larger, later stage startups tend to rely less on equity and
| more on cash because the equity gets pretty diluted pretty
| quickly - there's an awkward middle ground where there may
| still be plenty of uncertainty about whether the business
| will survive to an exit/IPO/etc despite some success, but
| where any shares you got aren't necessarily enough to make up
| for low salary if one of those things happens. That middle
| ground is where large cash comp makes the most sense.
|
| But broadly speaking, yes, tech startup salaries in the US
| trend high.
| b20000 wrote:
| yeah, and then you get charged nicely by your landlord,
| health insurance companies, the tax man, and a million other
| people for basic shit.
| 0xfaded wrote:
| If I did another startup in Europe, I would incorporate in
| Delaware and raise US money from the get go.
|
| It's cool to see the YC terms borrowed directly, and hopefully
| that would be a shot across the bows of European investors. But
| to really give European founders leverage they need access to US
| valuations and terms.
|
| I think semi-philanthropic incubators like these could really
| help by guiding founders to form US entities or reincorporate as
| early as possible.
| andy_ppp wrote:
| Yes same, even if I don't get into YC I'll be trying to raise
| on US terms. I've seen some really stupid startups in Europe
| end up with crazy dilution to the point where if they thought
| about it they'd realise they just had a job working for some
| rich people. US valuations are twice the amount for half the
| equity from what I've seen so why I wouldn't do that rather
| than be screwed over I don't know...
| 0xfaded wrote:
| Make sure you incorporate in a form that US investors are
| comfortable with. Few investors are going to want to figure
| out what an ApS or GmH is just to make a seed investment in
| your tiny startup.
|
| It also gives tou better exit potential in the event of a
| M&A.
| andy_ppp wrote:
| I'll probably do whatever Clerky tells me to, which is the
| service YC tells founders to use I believe...
| hans1729 wrote:
| From someone who hasn't interacted with the startup world much
| yet: what are some problems companies in Europe would have to
| deal with? What liberties are exclusive to the US? I'd imagine
| lots of complications of running a US-based company within
| Europe.
|
| I can't imagine moving to the US, and I'm sure that lots of
| smart people in the EU are in the same camp. At the same time,
| I'd be very interested in providing high value to and being
| part of a company with the velocity and dynamics of a start-up
| -- I just wouldn't move to the US to pursue the opportunity, as
| in: I'd not even consider it below ridiculous/unrealistic pay.
| dgellow wrote:
| > I can't imagine moving to the US, and I'm sure that lots of
| smart people in the EU are in the same camp. At the same
| time, I'd be very interested in providing high value to and
| being part of a company with the velocity and dynamics of a
| start-up.
|
| I personally do this via contracting. I'm in Europe and work
| for people in the US. I'm currently working with two
| companies, both are very early stage startups, it's very
| dynamic, everything has to be built from scratch and I feel I
| have lot of influence over products and devices which is
| something I enjoy.
|
| And I still have all benefits from Western European
| countries.
|
| Not sure how things will evolve if they start to focus on
| hiring employees and move to a more standard company
| structure but so far things are going well.
| dgellow wrote:
| I meant "services", not "devices"... My autocorrect is a
| bit too zealous...
| dmitriid wrote:
| > what are some problems companies in Europe would have to
| deal with? What liberties are exclusive to the US?
|
| 1. Market
|
| US: a rather unified single English-speaking market of 300
| million people.
|
| EU: 27 different markets in the EU + half a dozen markets in
| countries freely associated with the EU (e.g. Norway and
| Switzerland) in different languages, cultures and
| expectations
|
| 2. Money
|
| US: unlimited unchecked runaway money. All the "unicorns" we
| keep hearing about can easily lose hundreds of millions and
| even billions dollars a year for decades, and still
| considered a success
|
| EU: less money, and you are expected to actually turn a
| profit at some point
| sbacic wrote:
| > EU: 27 different markets in the EU + half a dozen markets
| in countries freely associated with the EU (e.g. Norway and
| Switzerland) in different languages, cultures and
| expectations
|
| That's understating the issue. There are only 5 (!) EU
| member states with a population higher than that of the NYC
| metropolitan area and _none_ with that kind of population
| concentration or purchasing power.
| jason0597 wrote:
| > half a dozen markets in countries freely associated with
| the EU (e.g. Norway and Switzerland) in different
| languages, cultures and expectations
|
| Well, it isn't half a dozen, it's more like 3 countries
| (Iceland, Switzerland and Norway). 4 if you count
| Liechtenstein with its population of 38k people.
| gpderetta wrote:
| Well there is also Monaco, Andorra, San Marino and of
| course Vatican City with its population of 800!
| dmitriid wrote:
| Well, we can also count the UK now :)
| danijelb wrote:
| I don't think that the 27+ EU markets are a problem. I'm
| not even sure if there are 27+ different markets in the EU
| in the context of startups/tech, because if there were then
| each country would have their own isolated tech ecosystem
| which is not the case. Most EU countries are dominated by
| US tech companies.
|
| If different cultures and languages are not a problem for
| US startups in spreading to Europe I fail to see why it
| would be a problem for EU companies
| oblio wrote:
| You're missing the bigger picture.
|
| US startups <<grow>> in the US, the huge single market
| with a single language, then once they're big and can
| tackle the bureaucracy in order to get to the huge chunks
| of cash also available in Europe, they <<move>> into the
| EU.
|
| A not-so-huge startup by US standards can have hundreds
| of millions of dollars very early in its life, allowing
| it to switch to international expansion, while most of
| the equivalent EU startup would probably raise tens of
| millions by the same stage, if they're lucky.
| L_226 wrote:
| I am doing this right now, Stripe Atlas Delaware C-corp but
| operating in Germany. I could have incorporated a GmbH for
| EUR25,000 (goes into an account to act as collateral against
| future liability) - which uses all my savings basically, or a
| UG for EUR1 - but then I can't add other shareholders until I
| pay an additional EUR25k to convert it to a GmbH. For my
| startup, which is capital intensive, I have no choice but to
| use the US system.
| trh0awayman wrote:
| Can you talk about this a bit more? Or have any guidance?
|
| I'm in Germany and wanted to do this with my cofounders, but
| couldn't wrap my head around the legality.
|
| Don't you also have to maintain a German presence basically?
| And what are the implications in regard to exit taxes?
| L_226 wrote:
| > Don't you also have to maintain a German presence
| basically? Probably easiest, with all the required trips to
| the notary
|
| > And what are the implications in regard to exit taxes? No
| idea
| tluyben2 wrote:
| London could work depending on your business. Hope you
| involved an international tax lawyer; there can be a lot of
| issues with the German taxes in this setup if you did not do
| this carefully.
| L_226 wrote:
| London probably won't work for me. I have not pulled the
| trigger yet, tbh I am less worried about German taxes than
| I am running a C Corp from outside the US. Mainly because
| of the litigation heavy US culture, opaque paperwork
| overhead etc.
| monkeydust wrote:
| London probably has most generous tax incentives for
| startups to offer their investors. S/EIS.
| tluyben2 wrote:
| Yes, exactly. And the grant process, albeit through no
| cure no pay orgs, is quite good.
| tluyben2 wrote:
| The problem with taxes and capital and incorporation is
| that usually fixing it beforehand is easy while after you
| start to make money, you are perhaps too late. We went
| for London because not as litigious, light on paperwork,
| cheap to incorporate and there is a lot of money slushing
| around. Not America sized investments but close enough.
| And easy ramp to the US if you wish. Taxes are quite high
| once money starts poring in but it is startup and
| investor friendly pre money.
| L_226 wrote:
| I'll have a look again, got any useful links? I need to
| relocate to south EU anyway to build my thing, so I am
| not specifically tied to incorporating in Germany beyond
| being a citizen.
| tluyben2 wrote:
| If you want you can email me (see Hn profile); I moved
| from NL to the south so maybe I can help.
| alexdoesstuff wrote:
| As a German having gone through the experience, I feel I
| am reasonably qualified to give a perspective: The US
| setup is a breeze administratively, but fairly costly.
| You definitely need a tax accountant onshore ($3-5k per
| year at least, more if the setup is more complex) but
| that will take care of a good share of the minutiae. You
| probably also eventually need somebody helping you in
| Germany to take care of employment, taxes, VAT, etc. even
| though that may not yet be the case. When I've done it a
| few years ago I found it easier to have a German
| subsidiary of the C Corp doing that eventually.
|
| If you want a more nearshore solution you may want to
| contemplate the Netherlands or Ireland which both have
| fairly well developed support systems in case you ever
| need help.
| L_226 wrote:
| Thanks, I was expecting to have a German subsidiary
| eventually. Also considering Netherlands
| tluyben2 wrote:
| Netherlands is good as it's not too expensive (we dropped
| the 9k ltd thing you also have for gbmh quite a while
| ago) but the rules and taxes and lack of investors is
| quite hard; similar things to Germany. You would be bound
| to those anyway though if your employees are not
| freelancers and are in those countries...
| alexdoesstuff wrote:
| I am actually not sure if the investor assessment still
| stands after Covid forced just about any startup to be
| remote-work-heavy. I don't think most investors care
| anymore where companies are based or incorporated as long
| as it is within reason (don't incorporate in Australia
| unless you are an Australian company) and has a solid and
| well supported legal system.
|
| The issue in Europe from an investor perspective is that
| scaling is tougher than in the US. You have to most
| likely make changes to your product to cover a sufficient
| number of European countries due to a combination
| language, currency, regulation, customs, etc.. Your sales
| and marketing materials needs to at least be in different
| languages. Your German sales rep needs to speak German
| and most likely be German, your French sales rep needs to
| speak French and be French, etc. Add to that the fact
| that in B2B European companies tend to be less open to
| innovation. Also, you may encounter workers-councils at
| your potential clients discouraging changes to processes,
| etc.
| dgellow wrote:
| > or a UG for EUR1 - but then I can't add other shareholders
| until I pay an additional EUR25k to convert it to a GmbH.
|
| Could you elaborate on this, or point to a source? The way I
| understand the mini-GmbH model (UG) there is no limitations
| regarding shareholders versus a standard GmbH.
|
| Not saying you're wrong, I'm by far not an expert but I
| looked into creating a Unternehmergesellschaft ~1 year ago
| and don't remember reading about that type of thing.
| L_226 wrote:
| > The way I understand the mini-GmbH model (UG) there is no
| limitations regarding shareholders versus a standard GmbH.
|
| This is correct, however from my understanding this is only
| at time of incorporation. If I was to incorporate and then
| get a term sheet from an investor, I would struggle to then
| make them a legal shareholder in my UG.
|
| Perhaps I am also misunderstanding, re-reading [0] you
| could be correct. I did reach out to firma.de for
| clarification in February but never got a response.
|
| [0] - https://www.firma.de/en/company-formation/what-is-a-
| ug-haftu...
| dgellow wrote:
| Have you tried contacting a "Handelskammer"? I had quite
| good experiences in the past with hk24.de for example,
| even asking questions in English.
|
| Edit: I feel it's always so complicated to understand the
| German system for anything related to company
| administrative stuff :p
| ed_balls wrote:
| Can you not say that "this macbook and that car are company's
| property" and fulfil the capital requirement? the minimal
| capital in Poland is 5000PLN(1100EUR) and you just buy a
| laptop.
| riccardomc wrote:
| If capital is the problem you could also consider the
| Netherlands which requires EUR 0.01. You will need to pay a
| notary for the incorporation tho.
|
| https://business.gov.nl/starting-your-business/choosing-a-
| bu...
| macco wrote:
| This sounds interesting. Are there any prominent European
| startups who did go that route?
|
| Would you like to write a blog post about it?
| znpy wrote:
| Depending on where you're doing that and your nationality and
| fiscal residence, that might be illegal.
| Luc wrote:
| Surely not? Could you name a specific combination of those 3
| factors that make it illegal?
| antupis wrote:
| yeah and then go after European engineering talent, try to get
| best of both worlds.
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| Maybe a sort of conglomerate, where each new 'startup' is part of
| an existing company. Would that avoid some of the bureacracy?
| darkwater wrote:
| Good luck with that, Italy and Italians are one of the most
| bureaucracy-obsessed country on the planet. You can think you own
| country has bureaucracy issues? Go check Italy, and it will be
| for sure worse. I mean, in 2022 AFAIK and still not _every_
| salaried person can have a default pre-compiled tax draft that
| they can just sign on the Internet and get approved. You have to
| go and compile it one from scratch (I think the situation is
| changing but still not everybody has this by default). Also there
| is this idea where you get by default a lot of taxes but that you
| can opt-in to many helps for various topics (like, improving your
| house energy efficiency) which will reduce your tax burden, over
| usually 5 or 10 years after you paid for it cash. There are small
| taxes and fees for everything, you had to pay an annual tax to
| validate your passport (which was obviously checked only when you
| left Italy, if you live abroad nobody even knows about it, so now
| they made it a big fee at passport renewal every 10years) and so
| on. Source: an Italian living abroad, tired of bureaucracy .
| bonzini wrote:
| > still not every salaried person can have a default pre-
| compiled tax draft that they can just sign on the Internet and
| get approved. You have to go and compile it one from scratch
|
| This has changed several years ago.
|
| > you had to pay an annual tax to validate your passport
|
| Keyword being _had_. It 's gone for like 10 years.
| lnxg33k1 wrote:
| Yeah like I am not sure, when I was living in London, not
| being Schengen, at a certain point I got in mind to just go
| to "Questura" and make my electronic passport so that I could
| go through the fast automatic gate, I went there, paid the
| "Bollo", and I explained that I had to depart in a couple of
| days, and I just got the e-passport the morning I had to
| depart.. like it was blazing fast, I mean for my experience,
| getting passports in Italy is really a no-brainer
| squarefoot wrote:
| Some things have been sped up a lot (thanks to the EU),
| however in some cases bureaucracy still slows down even the
| simplest document request. Personal experience: I want to
| relocate, so last summer I found a new home and quickly
| paid a 20K Euros non refundable (in case of withdraw)
| deposit upfront. Unfortunately I later discovered that my
| own home can't be sold at market value, or to be more
| accurate to be purchased at market value with an authorized
| mortgage, because it was originally intended as (can't
| translate the proper Italian term) roughly half-owned-by-
| the-state-property which was a formula intended to help
| poor families to buy their home for cheap in city
| developing areas during the 80s. I have no resources to buy
| the new home without selling the old one first, and no
| intentions of getting into debt for it.
|
| To make it short, if I want to sell my home at market value
| to someone paying with a mortgage (likely 98% of buyers
| need one) I have to request some documentation which
| involves a tax, which in my case amounts to 5K Euros, plus
| a notary lawyer for documents filling and transmission
| which cost a few hundreds Euros. All fine and dandy, too
| bad that the mean time between the document request and
| when it is being released amounts to 7-8 months! Big WTF...
| 7-8 months for a fucking stamp on a piece of paper, plus
| hopefully one record in a database! I filled, paid and sent
| the request last January, let's see how much time will it
| need. I am extremely lucky that the owner of the home I'm
| buying will wait until next summer, and I'll have to
| deposit more money to drag it further, or I would have lost
| all my deposit only because of bureaucracy.
| lnxg33k1 wrote:
| That sucks sorry, good luck.. I'm so lucky that I dont
| own an house and can't afford a mortgage in any way :D
| darkwater wrote:
| I always had to do several hoops and loops through the
| consulate to get my 1st and then renew my passport abroad.
| But maybe we Italians living abroad are a snowflake and an
| edge case in this regard (like, I still renewed 6 months
| ago my ID card and it is still made of fucking paper)
| lnxg33k1 wrote:
| Soon after that I got also my e-id, what a bloody win not
| being watched anymore like a neanderthaler every time I
| had to show my ID :D (but I lost the PIN) (But then I got
| the SPID and didn't need the e-ID anymore :D)
| darkwater wrote:
| For SPID I'm also trapped in some loop where I can't get
| it easily from abroad, and I still don't understand why.
| lnxg33k1 wrote:
| Have you tried Aruba? I have done remotely up to the
| level 2 with them, and the verification compared to the
| one from Poste is just via webcam, you just hop on a chat
| with them, move your head left and right, make a jump, a
| turn, hold your ID close to your face and the guy just
| approves the identity, try if you haven't thought of them
| yet
| emme wrote:
| And you can use it with a standard OTP generator:
| https://github.com/andry08/ArubaOTP-seed-extractor
| lnxg33k1 wrote:
| Omg this is awesome, thank you
| kwere wrote:
| with Sielte i did the SPID online in three days
| darkwater wrote:
| > This has changed several years ago.
|
| AFAIK not yet for _everybody_
|
| > Keyword being had. It's gone for like 10 years.
|
| I think it's less, but in my last renewal in 2017 I had to
| pay over 100EUR all at once which is ridiculous (but at least
| less ridiculous than having to put a 10EUR physical "marca da
| bollo" each and every year).
| bonzini wrote:
| > AFAIK not yet for everybody
|
| For all employees (lavoratori dipendenti) and retired
| people.
| frafra wrote:
| I guess you are not an Italian living in Germany then :-)
| mcs_ wrote:
| it seems like they are building it in the Netherlands
| allendoerfer wrote:
| You are basically describing Germany. I try to put it on first-
| mover disadvantage to make me feel better: Basically Germany
| has had a relatively functioning administration for hundreds of
| years (Italy even for thousands). Compared to something you
| would design from scratch in 2022 it looks a bit archaic. I
| celebrate every little step forward.
| yywwbbn wrote:
| The US administrative and political system is objectively
| older and more archaic than the ones in almost every European
| country (besides Britain, Switzerland and maybe(?)
| Scandinavian countries). Germany was established in 1949 and
| Italy is a fairly new country as well.
| kuschku wrote:
| > Germany was established in 1949
|
| That's a neat myth, but you'll constantly interface with
| laws and bureaucratic structures from the pre-WWI empire
| (e.g. most of the school system, a lot of taxes, the entire
| healthcare system) and sometimes even Prussian laws from
| before the German Union.
| Bayart wrote:
| The current Switzerland goes back to 1848. There was a
| massive shift n administration and statecraft throughout
| Europe after the French Revolution, even in Scandinavia.
| Britain's the only country that kept to its own.
| allendoerfer wrote:
| As other commentors pointed out: The fundamentals of German
| bureaucracy are way older than 1949.
|
| Americans seem to have a special relation to their
| constitution, but in practice you interface with more
| detailed areas of the law much more often. The civil code
| of Germany [0] is from 1881 and even then was not written
| from scratch, but contains Prussian laws etc.
|
| [0]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%BCrgerliches_Gesetzbuch
| darkwater wrote:
| Italy is a new country but relies on older habits and in
| general on a more conservative mindset.
| oblio wrote:
| Modern Germany and Italy are successor states to much older
| entities, and frequently stuff from those ages creeps in.
|
| Well, every European country has this. France is at the
| Fifth Republic right now but I can bet that there's some
| obscure law hidden somewhere that's from the time of Philip
| II of France.
| riffraff wrote:
| > Go check Italy, and it will be for sure worse.
|
| I live in Hungary, am Italian, Hungary is worse for most
| things.
| lnxg33k1 wrote:
| I think Italy is below Germany at a bureaucratic level, I am
| not fully convinced that bureaucracy is the main issue, I think
| the main issue is the lack of electronic and fast and reliable
| and documented ways to complete requirements
| gw67 wrote:
| I am startup owner (SRL, limited liability company). I have
| incorporated the company in 1 day through a notary. Other
| activities related to taxes are outsourced by EUR2k-3k/year
| accountant. Yeah, it could be easier, but it's not the problem.
|
| If you build a startup and your main concern are those tax
| activities, I assume you are not building a startup. That's
| definitely not the hardest part :)
| [deleted]
| C19is20 wrote:
| Sounds like you've been living abroad for about 15 years.
| kwere wrote:
| FUN FACT: in Italy there are 160K regulations (75k at national
| level), 7000 in France, 5500 in Germany [0]. I would say that
| the structure is to shift responsabilities down the power
| stream. For example, Doctor were legally and financially liable
| if any covid patient got aftereffects [1]
|
| [0] https://www.corriere.it/economia/aziende/cards/imprese-
| itali...
|
| [1]https://www.univrmagazine.it/2020/04/09/emergenza-
| covid-19-e...
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2022-04-06 23:01 UTC)