[HN Gopher] My attempted cult recruitment
___________________________________________________________________
My attempted cult recruitment
Author : ssklash
Score : 128 points
Date : 2022-04-05 20:21 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (dynomight.net)
(TXT) w3m dump (dynomight.net)
| TuringTest wrote:
| _> Isn't that... pretty much exactly what my friends from the
| cafe did? How do you draw the line between "sensibly taking into
| account how real people react" and "manipulative dark patterns to
| literally get people to join your cult"? Perhaps there is no
| clear boundary._
|
| I find the final questions interesting... bc for me, it is
| _obvious_ that there is no clear-cut line, just degrees on a
| continuum which is healthy on one side and toxic at the other
| extreme.
|
| Human attention is the ultimate currency - we literally spend all
| of our conscious time allocating it to different uses at a
| constant rate, and _anything_ that we do to catch the attention
| of others is asking them to divert part of that use towards
| ourselves for a benefit.
|
| For me, it is a moral duty to make sure that any such interaction
| is geared towards producing a win-win situation. This is why I
| consider intrusive advertising to be morally abhorrent - not just
| for being annoying, but because it is taking away our most
| valuable resource from us, without even asking for permission.
| Advertising should be confined to appear on limited, pre-agreed
| channels where you don't mind finding the occasional relevant ad.
|
| In the near future I expect that personal attention managers will
| supplant the dreadful Skinner boxes that social networks have
| been built on, and instead provide applications that serve our
| interests - not those from an outsider.
|
| Now I have this little private group to discuss this kind of
| things, wouldn't you be interested in joining? ;-)
| jimmy2020 wrote:
| How did you discover that they were part of a cult? They just
| invited you to a group discussion and you didn't go to know if
| it's a really cult or just a bunch of people meeting and making
| new friends.
| BlueTemplar wrote:
| > How do you draw the line between "sensibly taking into account
| how real people react" and "manipulative dark patterns to
| literally get people to join your cult"? Perhaps there is no
| clear boundary.
|
| Hmmm, reminds me of the spectrum of the "Pickup Artist" tricks...
| trentgreene wrote:
| "Look. We're not going to beat around the bush" during the
| _fourth_ meeting made me chuckle
| NoraCodes wrote:
| Reminds me of the time that I made the mistake of talking to some
| Midwest Worker's Association folks. Never, ever give a Communist
| your phone number unless they tell you what org they're
| recruiting for first. Those people are _persistent_.
| analog31 wrote:
| An amusing factoid is that they always come in two's, so one of
| them can squeal on the other if they go off script.
| mc4ndr3 wrote:
| Many horrors of the world emerge directly from the belief that
| one owns the one true secret to happiness. The more banal reality
| that there are many enjoyable ways to live, doesn't attract
| followers.
| Mizza wrote:
| I lived in Berkeley, where there are still loads of little cults
| popping up, so this sort of thing happens fairly often.
|
| I knew somebody who was a pretty seasoned cult member and she
| explained to me that apparently there is a lot of competition
| between cults to recruit and poach high performing zealots, just
| like headhunters in tech.
| rdtwo wrote:
| How do they do it? Are there different benefits tiers and stock
| options,
| buescher wrote:
| One of the great lines from the Conan the Barbarian film
| (1982): "Two or three years ago it was just another snake cult"
| reiichiroh wrote:
| Sounds like MLM which is also sometimes part of a cult too
| (Amway)
| walrus01 wrote:
| > They wanted to have sex with me.
|
| > They wanted me to join their religion.
|
| based on what I know of "new age" cults these two things are not
| always mutually exclusive
|
| ask anyone from an older generation who lived through the late
| 1960s/early 1970s as a young adult...
|
| in the modern era I'd wager there's some degree of venn diagram
| overlap between MLM recruitment and "open relationship" people
| too
| Ansil849 wrote:
| The title is inaccurate. There is nothing in here about "cult
| recruitment", more just the author not being comfortable with the
| vibe someone was giving off. Which is fine, but it's a far cry
| from "cult".
| vorpalhex wrote:
| Unless you know your internal sense of "things being off" is
| wrong, listen to it.
|
| Often times we pick up on subtle cues before we consciously
| process them.
|
| Your evaluations as someone present override what your non-
| present friends think based off your verbal accounting.
| metadat wrote:
| +1 for "Trust your gut".
|
| Don't ignore it.
| rdtwo wrote:
| Your gut can be wrong especially if you are a low trust
| person. I've had a lot of times where people did something
| nice or did something I would never do and I was suspicious
| but ultimately it turned out good for me. Unexpected human
| kindness sets off my alarm bells every time, but it's still a
| good thing
| wolverine876 wrote:
| Take it as a signal of something, but certainly don't take it
| at face value. Apply your intellectual abilities to identifying
| the origin of that signal. Maybe they just remind you of
| someone or something; maybe they unwittingly struck a nerve;
| etc.
| [deleted]
| tomcam wrote:
| > Still, what I really wanted was to get back to work. It felt
| rude to say that outright, and they didn't seem to notice how my
| eyes kept drifting back to my notebook.
|
| This is very hard for some people (I am not being facetious
| here), but cult weirdos or not, it's really important to be able
| to say something like "Thanks for chatting but I'm going to work
| now." No apology is necessary. Nothing equivocal in the words
| they can grab onto and argue with. No lying, polite or or
| otherwise.
|
| You may need to practice this in the shower or the car. You may
| need to practice it on people even when you don't necessarily
| need to go. But you need to practice it if you are a born and
| trained people pleaser like me.
|
| I regard not being able to do so as something close to life-
| threatening, because when you are raised to put other people's
| interests before your own, you can spiral into incredible
| depression and self abuse.
| thr0wawayf00 wrote:
| > Again, I was tempted to cut off contact, but I asked some
| friends and again they all said I was insane and imagining
| things. Determined to prove that I was capable of normal human
| interaction, I carried on.
|
| It sounds to me like the author approached these interactions
| from a place of insecurity, which is exactly what ultra-
| manipulative types look for in a target. If you don't have a
| clear idea of what someone wants from you when they ask for your
| time, it's on you to speak up for yourself and get that clarity.
| You don't have anything to prove by deciding to continue talking
| to people that don't seem interested in developing a genuine
| relationship.
|
| > But they walked into that cafe, looked around, and decided I
| was the easy prey.
|
| Given that the author agreed to meet with them four times with an
| open mind, I'd say that the recruiters found a pretty good
| target, even if it was ultimately fruitless.
| gjvc wrote:
| This is a good set of observations. Do not act from a position
| of weakness. Do not take a job from a position of weakness. Do
| not embark on a new relationship from a position of weakness.
| Sadly, in such a position we are unable to see that we are, or
| we believe that whatever opportunity in front of us in the
| moment is the only one we will likely get. The mind plays
| tricks.
|
| Yes I speak from experience, but I'm better now :-)
| bobthechef wrote:
| mquander wrote:
| > But here's an uncomfortable analogy: I've talked before about
| how when I first wrote about ultrasonic humidifiers, everyone
| dismissed the argument for "nonsense" reasons, like not having
| any citations. Eventually, I realized I could change my argument
| to avoid that reaction: I was "calmer" and put the citations
| earlier. Most importantly, I knew that if I clearly stated my
| thesis early on, would dismiss my article without reading it. So
| instead I let my claims appear gradually. (I'm not stating that
| thesis here, either, for the same reason.) Isn't that... pretty
| much exactly what my friends from the cafe did? How do you draw
| the line between "sensibly taking into account how real people
| react" and "manipulative dark patterns to literally get people to
| join your cult"? Perhaps there is no clear boundary.
|
| The ethical thing to do is whatever you think helps other people.
| If you think people reading your article are trying to learn
| true, useful things about humidifiers, it's good to write the
| article in whatever way is conducive to that. If instead you
| wrote it in a way designed to make you look the best, or to sell
| humidifiers, that would be a problem.
| Geekette wrote:
| Sounds like OP should:
|
| Practice enforcing boundaries: If what you really want is to get
| to work, then there's nothing rude in signalling likewise (e.g.
| by turning back to your laptop) or saying so directly. What is
| rude is people who ignore such cues and continue to try talking
| to you.
|
| Listen to intuition: If something/someone feels slightly off
| (even if you can't articulate precisely what/how), then feel free
| to distance yourself immediately. You can later ruminate on why
| at your own convenience.
|
| Recognize you don't need to justify feeling disinterest in or
| even active dislike of someone on sight. They might even be
| perfectly good people but if you're not drawn to engage, then
| that's your prerogative. You certainly don't need to prove or
| disprove their decency/motives by continuing to engage.
| theogravity wrote:
| This tactic is pretty common to get you into a possible MLM
| scheme. It happened twice to me, and once to my wife. They'll
| strike up a conversation with you while shopping by commenting on
| a nice article of clothing or something about you, which leads
| into a convo about where you work, etc.
|
| They're so personable that you're thinking oh nice, I have a new
| friend and agree to have coffee. Then the second steps and on as
| the author mentions happens where they start to ask personal
| questions like if you're happy in life, what would it be like to
| not have any debt, retire early, etc.
|
| This all happens over two-three meetings where they then start to
| talk about they have a group or mentor they work with that can
| get you going with your life goals.
|
| We never made it into the actual meet the group / mentor part as
| we knew at this point something felt scammy about it and broke
| off contact after that.
| MiddleEndian wrote:
| I had a guy do something similar to me. He was hanging out with
| some of my friends and shared the last name of two brothers we
| knew, so I figured he was their cousin or something.
|
| Eventually he invited me out to some fancy bar with the secret
| intention of trying to get me to invest in his wacky financial
| bullshit, which was immediately obvious after about five
| minutes of conversation. He kept asking about my investments
| and I kept giving him completely contradictory answers as he
| kept buying me drinks, pretending to agree with me, and telling
| me about some "zero risk" opportunities. Eventually when he
| started trying to press me for a more direct answer, I was like
| "nah not interested" and left, got a free meal out of it on top
| of the free drinks lol.
|
| Later I brought up the experience to a couple of my friends who
| were around when I met him and they weren't sure who he was
| either, apparently he was unrelated to the other guys. Never
| saw him again.
| sammalloy wrote:
| He was a con man. Watch "Better Call Saul". They have several
| episodes in the series featuring this exact con.
| MiddleEndian wrote:
| He was for sure. I'll always wonder if he noticed I was
| deliberately answering his questions inconsistently or just
| thought I was a massively confused mark.
|
| I'm part of the way through Better Call Saul, so I'm sure
| I'll run into it eventually.
| cf100clunk wrote:
| Another tactic they'll try is to get to you as a captive
| audience, such as on a ferry, bus ride, in an airport waiting
| area during a long layover, etc. If they're on the same
| vacation package you'll need to be firm about avoiding them.
| mortenjorck wrote:
| I once had someone I knew from college reach out a couple of
| years after we'd graduated with the premise of catching up and
| talking about "some stuff he was working on." I had no prior
| knowledge of MLM, but only a few minutes into our conversation,
| it was immediately clear to me that he was using some kind of
| rehearsed language, and my skepticism was raised.
|
| At some point, it segued into talk of financial independence
| and envisioning what that would look like for me, and it was
| suddenly clear to me what the psychological intent of the
| exercise was. I politely heard him out, suggested I'd get back
| to him once I'd had some time to think it over, and did so the
| next day, obviously declining.
|
| I hope he got back on the right track.
| moab9 wrote:
| that's why it's best to flip the script and demand that they
| join _your_ cult on the first meeting. Offer a free haircut if
| they balk.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| There's a ton of wisdom in this. Seriously. Humour is a
| social lubricant and barometer/test signal.
|
| To the OP: Interesting and enjoyable story. You already said
| your gut instinct alarm bells were set to red alert, but you
| were not following them. Why? What did you hope get out of
| this interaction that let it go to four rounds? There's one
| phrase that sticks out from a training on social engineering
| we had here recently - "you can't con an honest person". And
| that means a person who is honest with themself. All this
| time you are thinking about "what did they want?" Maybe the
| question you should be asking is what did _I_ want? To get
| back to work. But you didn 't.
|
| If the answer is really "nothing" then a genuine friendship
| might be in the offing. Otherwise, one or both of you is
| playing a game. Test that by pushing away - not just politely
| playing within the polite parameters of normalcy - a good con
| artist will already have those exists mapped out. Chuck in an
| unexpected dirty or ridiculous joke. Humour throws a swerve-
| ball that should reset the power relationship. If you get
| back "psychoanalysis" instead of a belly laugh, take a walk.
| lifeplusplus wrote:
| I once went to discuss "business opportunity" with someone,
| sounded odd but I was fresh freelancer and would take any work.
| Right away I knew it was about me and business was mlm. The guy
| emphasized how we are selling vitamins. I was like great,
| vitamins is indeed big biz but online world is bit of a winner
| take all, how much does it cost and then asked him to search
| similar product on Amazon. Behold half the price. Enjoyed
| watching him fold and act dumb
| colechristensen wrote:
| I went to one of the MLM get-you-hooked events in a hotel
| ballroom. I knew what it was and was just curious what it would
| look like and an old high school classmate was trying to loop
| me in. It wasn't really cultish, just a bunch of people who
| didn't really understand business trying to scam you into
| selling their crap.
| drawkbox wrote:
| Yeah potentially an MLM, religion or cult. The initial
| introduction has parallels to "flirty fishing" [1] and "love
| bombing" [2] which are known cult tactics. The extreme end of
| that is sexpionage but the early side of that is finding a
| single male that may have some money or influence and using
| that to corral them into their group, whatever that group it.
| This is extremely common in espionage as well if anyone works
| in highly sensitive or technical areas.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flirty_Fishing
|
| [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_bombing
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| I suspect a TLA did this to me during a background
| investigation. A woman (as far as I knew) divulged she was
| Iranian and solicited my opinion.
| walrus01 wrote:
| Did you submit a SF-86 to the OPM and were in the process
| of going through the formal background investigation at
| that time?
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| This was before the OPM breach.
| xur17 wrote:
| What is TLA?
| ocdtrekkie wrote:
| Three letter acronym. Aka, CIA, FBI, NSA, etc.
| alx__ wrote:
| I got sucked into a cult-like church in my 20s. It's like a
| drug when you're feeling down in life. I'm more attuned to this
| level of bullshit now. But not everyone is which is why these
| tactics work.
|
| I'll still engage if a stranger talks to me and try to be
| affable but will maintain a healthy level of distrust. Because
| sometimes people just like to chat with a stranger in hopes of
| friendship. Have a friend who made friends with the lead singer
| of a somewhat popular indie band. Didn't even know who he was
| until after several months of hanging out :D
| damontal wrote:
| My assumption based on experience is that any stranger who
| strikes up a conversation with me is either mentally unstable
| or is looking to get something from me.
| recuter wrote:
| You're not wrong, especially if you live in NYC or most of
| California. But this is a cultural thing.
|
| Roberto Benigni type people are real, they might just not be
| around where you live. Consider moving. Whether you move away
| or towards where these sort of characters congregate is of
| course entirely up to you.
|
| If you would like to know which places to seek out/avoid feel
| free to chime in.
|
| P.S. - Please don't go to Rome and expect it to be filled
| with Benignis.
| fellowniusmonk wrote:
| Best part about Austin outdoor culture is the random
| friendly conversations, met a dude who founded arcade fire
| like 6 months ago just because we we're talking about
| places to eat.
|
| It's just part of Austin's hippy music fest heritage and is
| the best part.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| > If you would like to know which places to seek out/avoid
| feel free to chime in.
|
| Do you have a group where you meet up to discuss this kind
| of stuff privately? /s
| borski wrote:
| I've had more serendipitous and pleasant conversations in
| NYC and CA (both places I've lived) than anywhere else. :)
|
| It's not limited to Austin or the south. :)
| tomcam wrote:
| Yes. I have found people in New York City to be generally
| enjoyable and willing to help. The same was true in
| Southern California, where I lived for years. My Chinese
| wife was blown away at how helpful Americans tend to be.
| samuellavoie90 wrote:
| In the U.S., its part of their culture that striking up a
| conversation with a total stranger is normal. It just looks
| weird to the rest of the world, but I think it works out in
| their favor.
| [deleted]
| positus wrote:
| That sounds like a miserable way to live. Do you have the
| same assumptions when others engage you in conversation over
| the internet, or is it only in person?
| mise_en_place wrote:
| On the internet I would be even more wary, as anonymity or
| pseudo anonymity allows degenerates you would normally
| never interact with to grace your life with their presence.
|
| Some of the people I have met online make the two wackos
| the author met look like saints in comparison.
| dharmab wrote:
| This might be a regional/cultural difference. In my city in
| a flyover state, any stranger who tries to talk to you
| beyond small talk is almost certainly going to try to sell
| you something. (Obviously, outside of socialization
| contexts such as bars, clubs, meetups, etc)
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| Nice try cultist!
| damontal wrote:
| Only in person. I live in a major US city. When I was
| younger I would freely engage anyone who spoke with me. But
| I found myself in situations where I would be in physical
| danger sometimes being screamed at sometimes threatened
| after what began as a seemingly innocuous interaction. And
| I also got sick of people trying to sell me things or get
| money from me.
|
| I remember in my late teens some guy on the street saying
| "Hey man! I like your shirt!" My Jimi Hendrix shirt? He
| must like Jimi Hendrix too. So I started talking with him
| and in a few minutes he was asking for money. Weeks later
| I'm wearing a different shirt and I hear "Hey man! I like
| your shirt!"
|
| Once on a commuter train a guy struck up a conversation
| with me about a book I was reading. It was an interesting
| conversation. We kept talking as we exited the train and
| kept talking on the platform as all the other commuters
| went to their cars and drove away. Now he's getting kind of
| excited and raising his voice. And I'm now aware of how
| large he is and how we are the only two people left at the
| station. I managed to politely get out of there.
|
| Over and over again this kind of thing would happen until I
| just made a policy to not engage.
| tomcam wrote:
| Man that's a depressing state of affairs.
| xwdv wrote:
| Most people live miserable lives, especially in this day
| and age. Occasionally there are moments of joy, but they
| are fleeting.
| recursive wrote:
| If that's really true, I'm even more privileged than I
| realize. I'm rarely miserable. I thought that was pretty
| normal.
| fladrif wrote:
| To be fair, rarely do people have an accurate grasp on
| what normality is. Just the breadth of human experience
| is impossible to capture much less experience and
| process, not to mention the experience of people that is
| never expressed (I may be having a bad week, but I
| wouldn't express it, much less share it openly with
| coworkers)
| sammalloy wrote:
| > To be fair, rarely do people have an accurate grasp on
| what normality is.
|
| Well said. I've been thinking about this idea for a very
| long time. Like another user said above, the negativity
| bias has a large role to play here. I live in a small
| town and talking with strangers is considered normal and
| healthy.
| saxonww wrote:
| ...Absolutely?
|
| When we get unsolicited communication over phone, text,
| email, IM, etc., we consider it spam. It's almost always
| someone trying to get you to give money to them or their
| interest group.
|
| As someone who spends most of their day online, it's not
| hard at all to see why I might start thinking that way
| about in-person communication from people I don't know.
| borski wrote:
| This is a bad assumption. I often do this because I'm an
| extrovert and find other people interesting/fascinating, but
| want nothing from you and, to my knowledge, am not mentally
| unstable. :)
|
| To be fair, I don't lead with "have you ever done therapy?"
| or "what does it mean to be alive?" haha
| walrus01 wrote:
| > My assumption based on experience is that any stranger who
| strikes up a conversation with me is either mentally unstable
| or is looking to get something from me.
|
| I operate under this assumption any time I'm somewhere in a
| big city, unless I'm attending an event where people are
| specifically mixed together and expected to talk to each
| other (professional conference, etc)
|
| in a small town of 200-300 people/very rural area, I take a
| different approach of course
| woodruffw wrote:
| I've also had plenty of terrible experiences with strangers
| trying to talk to me. But I think it's wrong to build a
| policy from that: I've _also_ had plenty of great
| conversations with complete strangers, some of them in
| contexts where I 'd be considered "captive" if I wasn't a
| willing participant (airplanes, trains, etc.).
|
| IMO, serendipitous conversations are a key part of a healthy
| society. Few things have as strong of a humanizing effect.
| cogman10 wrote:
| > Few things have as strong of a humanizing effect.
|
| This, unfortunately, is EXACTLY what high pressure
| religions/cults/MLMs use to their advantage.
|
| I was a mormon missionary and one of the things we were
| taught to look out for is things to humanize ourselves.
| Literally "If you see toys in the yard, ask them about
| their kids. Are they washing a car? Ask if you can help.
| Was there a death in the family? Talk to them about mormon
| heaven." etc.
|
| The key, here, was all about conversion. You find an
| opening and then try and wedge yourself in (with the
| ultimate goal of getting a new convert, because you are
| "saving" them).
|
| Other cults are certainly worse (NEVER go to a "private"
| meeting!), but it's something to realize. Cults are
| successful because they try and use genuine humanizing
| effects to bring in new members.
| borski wrote:
| You're right, but it's important not to throw the baby
| out with the bathwater.
|
| Many people drive cars. Some people kill others with
| theirs, sometimes intentionally. We should not then
| assume every person driving a car is on the warpath.
| tomcam wrote:
| > We should not then assume every person driving a car is
| on the warpath.
|
| So you've never been to Boston
| RHSeeger wrote:
| To be fair, at least some of that is the streets, not the
| drivers.
|
| I was in Boston a while back and I came to a crossroads.
| There was no stop sign, no light, nothing. I eventually
| just had to... go. I got to my hotel and I asked about
| it, and the concierge was like, "oh, its just like that".
| I asked how people are supposed to know to stop (or not
| to) and he replied, "you just know". It baffled me
| because _clearly_ you don't just know.. because I was
| there and I didn't know. What happens if two people just
| drive through the intersection at the same time.
|
| I get it that crossroads exist like this in the open
| nowhere. But... in a city? It was mind-boggling to me.
| Plus... the street layout in Boston was done by throwing
| pounds spaghetti at a wall and then trying to match the
| pattern that stuck.
| tomcam wrote:
| All true. That and even the kindliest Bostonian suddenly
| becomes a sociopath once behind the wheel.
| treeman79 wrote:
| I bought a nice truck in a bold color. Since then every few
| days total strangers come up to me and we start talking
| about trucks.
|
| Completely blows my mind, but they have all been super nice
| people.
| emerged wrote:
| My neighbor approached me so often, and/or yelled from
| across the street, about my 90s gas guzzler that one day
| I was so frustrated I waved him off shook my head and
| went inside.
|
| I just couldn't deal with it again and it's one of the
| rudest things I've probably ever done. I know almost
| nothing about cars and I really don't care about them at
| all.
|
| He moved shortly after (hopefully unrelated lol), so
| nothing more ever came of that.
| tomcam wrote:
| Well now I have to know what color
| endgame wrote:
| This is why "charity muggers" infuriate me - they're
| poisoning the well for everyone else.
| bavila wrote:
| Context is definitely important. If I'm in a situation
| where I'm obviously just trying to get some work done in a
| coffee shop, I'd going to be very skeptical of a stranger
| who insists on striking up a conversation with me. It's
| just too pushy and frankly kind of creepy.
|
| However, I've also done some backpacking on the Appalachian
| Trail several years ago, and it's far more socially
| acceptable to start up a conversation with random people
| you meet along the way. It's understood that we're all
| strangers but we have a shared goal of hiking the trail,
| and what else are we going to do when we stop for the night
| other than chat a bit with the other people in the area?
|
| Had almost nothing but positive experiences speaking with
| random people while hiking, except for one nutcase (trail
| name was Mountain Lion) who was carrying a firearm and
| disclosed to me that he was kicked out of the military for
| mental health reasons (got to appreciate his honesty,
| though). I made sure to put as much distance between the
| two of us ASAP. Later found out he ran out of food, tried
| to steal from other people, and had to get airlifted out
| after getting injured. Good times.
| woodruffw wrote:
| Certainly; context accounts for a lot. I wouldn't wish
| Mountain Lion on anyone :-)
|
| I think what it boils down to for me is this: the world
| is full of loons. If we don't allow ourselves to be open
| to spontaneous interactions, the _average_ spontaneous
| interaction we have is more likely to be one involving a
| loon. Those memories also tend to be more salient because
| of their negativity, so we need to be intentional in
| remembering all of the lesser but positive experiences we
| 've had with strangers.
| monksy wrote:
| Or they're trying to get me to use Javascript.
| xwdv wrote:
| This has been my observation as well, and this is why I look
| at compliments with great cynicism, and why I do not give
| compliments or strike up conversations. And if I do want
| something from someone, I state those intentions early so
| they don't think my conversation is a ruse.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Maybe this is false nostalgia, but I feel like this is more
| true post smartphones than pre-smartphones. More people will
| just pop out their phones and check their messages/mail/play
| a game rather than talk to people around them; a fair amount
| of casual interactions were bored people stuck waiting in the
| same place.
| wslack wrote:
| This is region dependent. In the US South its normal to have
| light conversations with strangers in public spaces (waiting
| in line, for example).
| thrownawayalre wrote:
| That changes with kids fortunately.
|
| Parents bringing their kids to playgrounds, that have not
| much to do except talking to other parents. Being at a
| playground with their own kid filters out most mentally
| unstable or interested parties.
|
| Very easy to strike conversations if kids have the same age.
| Lots of opportunities for new and sane friendships, with who
| you can then double-date when their kid come home to play
| with yours.
| TuringNYC wrote:
| The sad thing is that -- this is how I met almost all my
| friends. Through random conversations. I agree that random
| convos at work/school are much less likely to be MLM, but I
| always wonder about what i'm missing when I filter too much.
|
| My best friend from college -- 25 years still -- is someone I
| met on line, waiting for lunch.
|
| I get pretty annoyed with MLM sales pitches, but I dont think
| we should close ourselves off to the world with strict
| policies on social interactions.
| 0_____0 wrote:
| How would you rate your social intuition? I would rate mine
| as moderate, undermined by anxious traits, but it's typically
| pretty obvious when someone is unstable/potentially dangerous
| or panhandling. I live in a major US metro and somewhat
| routinely talk briefly with people I encounter in a low-
| stakes way.
| dools wrote:
| Is this article the first step in a funnel to sell more
| ultrasonic humidifiers?
| EamonnMR wrote:
| I think the author has some sort of crank fear that they're
| filling the air with bad particles.
| istinetz wrote:
| The author has a very well articulated and defended fear.
|
| They're definitely not a crank, even if they've arrived at a
| wrong conclusion, which I doubt.
| TechBro8615 wrote:
| This was an annoyingly skillfully written piece. At numerous
| points I felt I knew better than the author, only to confront my
| own foolishness a few sentences later. This kept me reading while
| my mind drafted the HN comment about how the author is too naive
| and can't say no. But true to form, the last paragraph had me
| questioning everything - was it I who was duped?
|
| That said, this definitely wouldn't have happened to me, given
| how cold and unapproachable I am. This is great for avoiding
| scams and people who want to take advantage of me. However, I
| suspect such standoffishness has denied me many opportunities for
| social connection. Someone like the author is more likely to
| stumble into a cult, but also more likely to meet new people. So
| I guess you take the good with the bad.
| jozvolskyef wrote:
| The author's perspective is one that I find very relatable. I
| am often able to see when people are trying to take advantage
| of me from a distance, but I choose to "give them the benefit
| of the doubt", even though I may know that there is a very slim
| chance that they actually deserve it. I do this because I am
| curious. When your experience suggests that you can accurately
| read people's intentions and motivations, talking to bad faith
| actors becomes a fun game of figuring out what they're up to
| and learning about their world. A risky one, certainly, but I
| like playing.
| mise_en_place wrote:
| I'd say the author took a very large risk and gamble by engaging
| with these types of people. Many criminals and intelligence
| agencies employ the same tactic, one of them will be a very
| attractive woman, and while you're distracted the male will rob
| you or follow you in your car to your house.
| sircastor wrote:
| About 15 years ago, I was listening to a podcast that was largely
| about economic philosophy and personal freedoms. High on the
| libertarian views and it appealed to me at the time. I heard
| about a meeting organized by the people who made that podcast and
| decided to check it out. The podcast and related organization
| were connected to a property investment system at the height of
| the housing bubble. My wife decided to go with me.
|
| We met in the basement of an unfurnished house. There was an
| American Flag on a free-standing pole. We said the pledge of
| allegiance and I think there might have been an ambiguous prayer.
| Then we watched a video of some sort by the founder of the
| podcast.
|
| The experience was very weird. It set off my "this is weird"
| alarms which made me step away from it.
|
| The founder eventually went to prison for running a Ponzi scheme.
|
| I think people very much want to belong to a group, and be told
| that the way they view the world is right. And there are plenty
| of people who are happy to tell you you're right and you belong
| if you'll just offer yourself up to them.
| smoe wrote:
| I had a bunch of similar interactions like these were I grew up
| and about 6 with different missionaries across Latin America.
| Starting out with innocent seeming conversations slowly going
| towards selling their value prop. For me the most repugnant in
| most of these interactions was, how intentionally they were
| fishing for very personal things that I'm worried, sad or
| insecure about just so that they can then present their magical
| solution for it.
| rdtwo wrote:
| Yeah that's usually the tell they are fishing too hard for
| insecurity or major life problem that needs a solution. It's
| not a problem 1 on 1 but you don't want to get stuck sparring
| against multiple opponents
| anyfoo wrote:
| > A week later, they suggested we go to lunch again. Again, I was
| tempted to cut off contact, but I asked some friends and again
| they all said I was insane and imagining things. Determined to
| prove that I was capable of normal human interaction, I carried
| on.
|
| Your friends may mean well, but they may also be a bit dumb. You
| really don't have to interact with people that you don't want to
| if it's entirely voluntary to begin with, especially if things
| feel "off".
|
| It's easy to claim so in a hypothetical, but I still like to
| believe that had you asked me, I would have said something like
| "if it feels so off, don't do it".
|
| This is different from being anxious over, say, ordering a pizza
| over the phone (that I've seen in a few friends), where I would
| recommend pushing over your anxiety, because that is almost
| certainly guaranteed to be a short, professional, and, most
| importantly, absolutely un-intimate conversation.
|
| > Determined to prove that I was capable of normal human
| interaction
|
| Yeah, this isn't.
| madrox wrote:
| This story is a really great argument for "trust your gut." You
| don't always need an eloquent articulation of why something is
| off for it to be real. Also, no experience gets better than the
| initial meet. If something feels off initially, that feeling will
| never go away.
| h2odragon wrote:
| It does come off weird if you inquire as to people's blood type
| and opinion of accidental cremation straight out before you
| invite them over for a party... but it's best to be open and
| honest about these things. After all, otherwise they wouldn't
| know to bring a sacrifice.
| lowwave wrote:
| Hey if it was free, why not give it a try?
| EamonnMR wrote:
| "After 30 minutes or so, I realized I was never getting back to
| work so I made an excuse to leave." That's an extraordinary
| amount of time to put up with being interrupted.
| gwbas1c wrote:
| > My attempted cult recruitment
|
| But TFA never confirmed that it was a _cult._ Suspicious
| circumstances, yes, but people who meet to discuss things
| privately doesn 't mean cult. It could just mean they get very
| deep into certain topics and want to pre-screen people.
|
| OTOH: TFA was clearly uncomfortable with this couple. He was
| perfectly within his free will as an adult to discontinue the
| relationship.
| mulmen wrote:
| Reading this in full has me feeling uneasy. I am not a social
| person but I _try_ to be. I have come a long way in my adult
| life. I now regularly meet people in public. Some of them become
| friends. I have _never_ had an interaction like this. Sometimes I
| meet people who I never see again. Sometimes we meet a few times
| but it never goes anywhere. Nothing clicks. People are busy. That
| feels normal.
|
| In these post-Covid times I have met several people who are kind
| and interesting. Could easily turn into a friendship. But this
| post has me doubting those interactions. That nice couple I met
| at the arcade last night, what was their _agenda_? I thought they
| just wanted to play pinball and meet people. Did I narrowly avoid
| a death cult? Did I miss out on a threeway?
|
| To reach the end and learn that this post itself is self-
| referential is offputting. I feel like I fell for the thing the
| article claims to be about.
|
| This is not a domain I'll be clicking on again.
| thwayunion wrote:
| I'm a bit confused. Isn't it possible that they _actually were_
| lonely /bored weirdos who are bad at social boundaries and host a
| (probably mind-numbingly uninteresting) discussion group?
|
| Don't get me wrong, I shut these sorts of people down at the
| first conversation because I hate dilettante philosophy with a
| passion and have a strong distaste for any hint of spiritualism.
| But there are underemployed folks at all my regular coffee haunts
| who are always chatting up willing patrons and will ask to
| exchange numbers if someone is patient enough to engage. But
| AFAICT they aren't nefarious, just bored and weird. One hocks CDs
| of his bad garageband compositions, but again, he's harmless.
|
| How did you jump from "cringe" to "cult"?
| Ansil849 wrote:
| Yeah, this was my read too. There are plenty of bored and
| lonely people who also fancy themselves armchair intellectuals,
| who'd love to talk to you for hours. It may make them annoying
| and irritating, but it doesn't make them a cult. I don't see
| anything in the article that this was "attempted cult
| recruitment", more just "lonely people discussion group".
| BizarroLand wrote:
| I would say the most likely scenario is the one where they were
| attempting to get something from them. Based on the authors
| account, they weren't meeting for the purpose of talking to
| each other, they were using social engineering to strong-arm
| the author into their group.
|
| It's kind of interesting knowing that if you can get a few
| people to do a thing that other people will go along with it
| because that seems to be the thing to do. For instance, if you
| and a few other people start regularly working out in a park
| there's a good chance regular passers by may ask to join in at
| some point.
| p1necone wrote:
| Even if that was the case they were still being manipulative.
| The whole "you can't talk about this stuff with other people"
| shtick is pretty transparent. I don't think you can say they're
| /just/ socially inept.
| kelseyfrog wrote:
| There is a vague conversational sense that something is off.
| For me, this has occurred several times just prior to receiving
| masonic handshakes. It's happened enough that I take notes
| quickly afterword in order to compile a list of
| keywords/phrases in order to help identify what's going on. jc,
| this sounds absolutely unhinged after typing it out.
| rdtwo wrote:
| Yeah I've gotten this wired vibe from religious leaders. Just
| a little too friendly and steering conversations into odd
| areas. I try to refocus the conversation back on them as the
| interesting subject and that breaks the pattern but with 2
| it's difficult.
| Infernal wrote:
| Well, can you help us identify these situations by sharing
| some of your notes?
| Trasmatta wrote:
| The one thing that makes me think "possibly not a cult?" is
| that they met up 4 times before the "private meeting" idea was
| introduced. I feel like cults usually try to start getting you
| integrated into the larger group earlier than that, especially
| if you're just some rando they met at a cafe.
|
| Some of the other points in their interaction do heavily hint
| at cult, though. Could just be a group that does recruitment
| differently than I'm used to. I did missionary work in a cult
| once (not going to name which group, because I don't want to
| derail this thread arguing over whether this particular group
| is a cult or not), and the described behaviors and conversation
| topics certainly ring a bell.
| cf100clunk wrote:
| The author implies that those strangers set off alarm bells at
| several times, and that is what is important. Giving those
| strangers the benefit of the doubt would never have made that
| doubt go away, from what I could tell. If they actually were
| just ''lonely/bored weirdos'' the writer would still be ahead
| by trusting the doubts and behaving circumspectly based on
| them.
| thwayunion wrote:
| Given the title, I expected the story to end with positive
| confirmation that the two people were in a cult. Not "and
| then they invited me to join a private discussion group, I
| ghosted them, the end".
|
| Again, I'm in material agreement that talking with weirdos is
| generally a losing proposition for any number of reasons. But
| I don't understand why he's so certain these people were in a
| cult. They could've been in an MLM. They could've also just
| been weirdos with a private discussion group. Heck, the "sex"
| possibility listed at the beginning isn't even proven false.
| We don't know. The story has an inconclusive ending, which is
| odd given the title of the piece.
|
| The bait-and-switch of the title gives me the same bad vibes
| that the author got from the people in the story. And the end
| of the post feels... forced and perhaps even dissonant. I dig
| deeper and the guy has a formula for the good life. A
| personal subreddit (?!) and a substack that all appear to be
| about nothing in particular?
|
| Does this guy want something from me or is he just a harmless
| oddball who likes talking into the void / to his small
| audience? Probably the latter. Most weirdos are harmless and
| I'm glad they exist even if I don't want to engage with most
| of them. In fact, maybe he's aware that he sometimes comes
| across like this and that's why he wrote the post? And the
| title is, I guess, pretty mild as far as clickbait goes. No
| harm, no foul.
|
| It's kind of funny that I get the same vibe from him as he
| got from these people. And even funnier that I'm commenting
| on a post that gives me odd vibes claiming I never engage
| with people who give me odd vibes :)
|
| In any case, I remain unconvinced that these people were
| definitely recruiting for a cult. But maybe that's not even
| the point of the post.
| toast0 wrote:
| "I don't want to belong to any club that would accept me as one
| of its members." --- or something similar, Groucho Marx, maybe.
|
| I'm not so obviously desirable to be in a group that someone
| with no social connections to me should be inviting me in. It'd
| be different if the invite comes with context, but a cafe has
| little context; most people eat, and a lot of people drink
| coffee.
|
| Anyway, on the subject of cults, if you want to join a
| _quality_ death cult, that 's stress free, with no social
| obligations, might I suggest the Internet Death Cult of Fun,
| https://deathcult.fun/
| CTDOCodebases wrote:
| "What was going on here? I saw three possibilities:
|
| 1.They wanted to be friends.
|
| 2.They wanted to have sex with me.
|
| 3.They wanted me to join their religion."
|
| I would add the following to that list:
|
| 4. They wanted to sell me something.
|
| 5. All of the above.
| [deleted]
| chihuahua wrote:
| As a man, if any female stranger ever initiates a conversation in
| a cafe, I can safely assume that she has some kind of ulterior
| motive. That may sound cynical or sad, but that's life.
|
| Thus I can shut down this kind of interaction long before I feel
| obligated to meet people for brunch even though it feels awkward.
| sammalloy wrote:
| That hasn't been true in like forty years. Women do initiate
| conversation now in modern society.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| That's how I met my wife? I suppose after a few kids and over a
| decade of marriage, she might just be playing the _really_ long
| con.
| rdtwo wrote:
| Lol ok.
| CPLX wrote:
| It was probably Landmark or Scientology I assume. Although the
| "private" aspect means maybe not I guess.
| phphphphp wrote:
| I doubt it's Landmark, they typically lack any subtlety and
| wouldn't invest that much time in someone that doesn't even
| know they're Landmark.
| Animats wrote:
| Agreed. I had a friend who got into Landmark, and they're not
| subtle. She eventually recovered, but it took years.
| Religious groups and Scientology don't start out that slow.
| Chabad does, but their target group is limited.
|
| Some kind of scam, I expect. It seems so retro for a scam.
| You can scam so many people online for so little investment
| that a labor-intensive scam like this seems obsolete.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| > Chabad does
|
| But they also don't sucker you into giving away your money
| or guilt you into doing things you don't want to do.
| erdos4d wrote:
| > You can scam so many people online for so little
| investment
|
| Honestly curious, how does one do this? I hear this a lot,
| but when I have tried to actually advertise legitimate
| services online, the ROI is insanely bad. I can't imagine a
| cult leader would get better results, so why do people
| claim this is easy online?
| Animats wrote:
| Check out the NFT market.
|
| Here's the pitch deck for Bored Ape Yacht Club.[1] Aimed
| at large investors, not the suckers.
|
| [1] https://twitter.com/LeonidasNFT/status/15050589327583
| 60064
| erdos4d wrote:
| Honestly, this looks like a shitload of work. The art is
| beyond me completely, I'd need capital to get that made
| by competent artists. They have articles from Rolling
| Stone, so I'm guessing I would need a LOT of capital to
| line that up. They have half a million followers on
| Twitter and Instagram, etc. This looks very much like a
| high investment scam needing a medium company worth of
| talent and capital to pull off. In short, this looks like
| the work of a funded startup. How do you actually do this
| with very few resources?
| rdtwo wrote:
| You don't
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