[HN Gopher] Life advice from NYC chess hustlers
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Life advice from NYC chess hustlers
Author : gautamcgoel
Score : 185 points
Date : 2022-04-03 17:47 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (annekadet.substack.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (annekadet.substack.com)
| DantesKite wrote:
| That was a nice read. It felt like I was taking a stroll through
| a New York city park.
| zitterbewegung wrote:
| I have played a chess hustler in Chicago a few times when my
| parents took me to the air and water show when I was in high
| school. Note that these chess hustlers were playing at around $1
| dollar a game. I would say that the average person doesn't even
| understand how to get into checkmate (even fools / scholars
| mate). So the game against most people is much less than five
| minutes.
|
| But, I was rated in my prime around 1000 ELO. The hustle has to
| conclude within five minutes or less. If you get past that state
| they basically either won't play with you or let you use one of
| their boards. The easiest way to do this is to lock the board and
| don't get into any situation where a piece is capture and don't
| capture the their pieces. In Chicago the hustler was playing
| multiple people I believe (simul) which their rating would be at
| minimum 1000 ELO
| wdb wrote:
| How's this tax free?
| TrackerFF wrote:
| I guess he meant "tax free" as in "cash only" - not something
| I'd want to say in public, but what are the chances IRS will
| pursue these guys.
| goatlover wrote:
| Cash under the chess board.
| sydthrowaway wrote:
| Aren't gambling winnings tax free? They are in Britain.
| Fezzik wrote:
| In the United States gambling winnings are fully taxed as
| income (and gambling losses are deductible).
| imglorp wrote:
| Not in the US. Officially you are supposed to voluntarily
| declare all income, even crime: they caught Al Capone on tax
| evasion, not his main business.
|
| If you win from company like a casino or lottery, the company
| withholds the tax and you report it when you file.
| rhexs wrote:
| The tax code isn't enforced at the cash / low income level.
|
| Thus you can vote for increased taxes to fund increased social
| spending and not actually take part in the taxation. In fact,
| you'll likely even get additional money back filing taxes when
| there's no record of your cash income.
|
| Convenient, eh?
| empthought wrote:
| "Gotcha!" - Lucky Ducky
|
| https://www.gocomics.com/tomthedancingbug/2003/06/14
| RockyMcNuts wrote:
| And yet the poor get audited more than the rich -\\_(tsu)_/-
|
| https://www.cbsnews.com/news/irs-audit-eitc-five-times-as-
| li...
| rhexs wrote:
| At low incomes, your tax return is highly likely to be
| incredibly simple. If you're doing something so wrong that
| it generates an audit, the IRS clearly knows they're going
| to strike oil with the audit. They aren't stupid.
|
| What's your solution? The poor should be able to commit tax
| fraud because going after millionaires is more important?
|
| Everyone should have to follow the tax code we've
| collectively created. It makes changing it far simpler when
| everyone is impacted equally.
| leephillips wrote:
| I don't know about the guy who was quoted, but I think that
| some people who are accustomed to normal jobs with tax
| withholding are actually unaware that they are obligated to
| pay taxes on cash income. For many people the only purpose in
| filing a tax return is to get a refund, as most people with
| normal jobs are victims of over-withholding.
| brianwawok wrote:
| Things you shouldn't post while using your real name; that you
| have a side job that you don't report income.
| Nav_Panel wrote:
| This is great, thanks for sharing. I've always walked by these
| guys but never expected that the roots ran so deep. I also love
| this little bit near the end: "To me, the Bible is Basic
| Information Before Leaving Earth--B.I.B.L.E."
| everly wrote:
| Not sure if this is the genesis of that acronym but that is a
| song on GZA's classic album Liquid Swords [0]. Interestingly,
| the album cover [1] and lyrics include chess references
| throughout.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_Swords#Track_listing
|
| [1]
| https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e2/GZALiquidSwor...
| ray__ wrote:
| I love this, just subscribed. My favorite piece of advice:
|
| "I'll give you a lesson, a half hour for $20. I have some
| children that come just to see me once a week and I give them a
| lesson--$20 for a half hour. And there's a lot of NYU students
| that come by, we give them a discount for being students. One
| hour for 40 bucks."
| swores wrote:
| I think (or maybe your choice of quote just accidentally gives
| the impression) you're interpreting that as making NYU students
| believe they're getting a deal despite paying the same price as
| "some children", but actually in the previous paragraph:
|
| > _If you want a game, I say one game, five dollars, five
| minutes._
|
| So the children and NYU Students are both getting a discount
| (40/hr for both types of student vs 60/hr for non-teaching
| games). Although I suspect he'd be willing to negotiate to the
| same 40/hr to play 12x timed 5min games if someone asked.
| [deleted]
| curiousllama wrote:
| 5min games are up to 10min long - 5min for each player
| rvieira wrote:
| That was a really nice read. Thanks.
| mellosouls wrote:
| For those of you who like this stuff, there are loads of those
| sorts of games on youtube, e.g. the Coffee Chess channel, which
| has recently been featuring Hikaru and the Botez Sisters (who
| themselves have been touring various places including the famous
| NYC hustlers).
|
| Coffee Chess:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq6gYeqi8RIvVeF-sJwdaBg
| SeanLuke wrote:
| I used to play Chinese Chess on and off in Hong Kong.
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiangqi). Just has NY has chess
| hustlers in parks, Hong Kong has Chinese Chess hustlers in parks.
| The hustlers were always excited to see me, a white American,
| stopping by and asking for a game and some tips: I was fresh
| meat! They'd gather in big groups to watch the sucker. But after
| my first move (the "P-K4" of Chinese Chess: Canon to beneath the
| center Pawn) their faces would change radically, as it suddenly
| became obvious that I knew somewhat how to play. :-)
|
| Now while Chess strategy transfers reasonably well to Chinese
| Chess, I'm not particularly good, and certainly not better than
| the hustlers. But I'd often beat them because they couldn't get
| it out of their heads that they weren't playing an American
| patsy, and so they kept making showy moves rather than good ones.
| It was a lot of fun.
| nojs wrote:
| > And let me tell you something. People make mistakes early in
| their life. I made mistakes early in my life. I got locked up
| when I was living in Maryland, selling drugs and stuff. But that
| doesn't mean that the game was over. That's how I equate chess
| with life.
|
| Maybe true in life, but not really true in chess. If you blunder
| early against a decent player, your chances of winning are very
| low!
| btilly wrote:
| I used to live in NYC 20 years ago.
|
| I played a few of the hustlers. Some you will lose to, but most
| aren't actually that good. They are entertaining though.
|
| One moment that I will never forget was watching two hustlers
| play each other for fun. The position was something like white
| had a pawn at a4 and a king at c7. Black had a pawn at h5 and a
| king at f3. Black to move. Black offered a draw, white said OK, I
| let out an involuntary, "WHAT?" They drew and black said, "You
| really think white can win here? I'll bet you $5 on that. I
| agreed so we played.
|
| ... h4 a5 h3 a6 h2 a7 h1(Q) a8(Q)+
|
| Black was in check, and no matter where he moved his king, his
| queen was toast.
|
| Easiest $5 I ever made.
| joe_the_user wrote:
| One of the things with hustlers is they need to encourage
| people to play and bet. So you never know when a hustler is
| just letting something happen and hoping that when you win a
| bet or game, it will encourage you to start betting and then
| they'll make more serious money. Which isn't saying this is
| what happened, just sayin' you don't know for certain that
| isn't what happened.
| hutrdvnj wrote:
| Do you remember the complete PGN of the game?
| btilly wrote:
| I have no clue. It was a blitz game and I was just a
| bystander.
| daveevad wrote:
| Isn't that essentially the same endgame at the ending of
| Searching for Bobby Fischer?
| adharmad wrote:
| Yes the same. The pawn race and subsequent diagonal pin are
| the same.
| smarmgoblin wrote:
| That's wild! I'm not very good but if black offered me a draw
| in this position my thought would be "his pawn is faster, so
| why would he offer a draw? Unless he thinks he's losing for
| some reason..." which would be the hint to look for the tactic.
|
| I guess in many queen/king endgames you can have perpetual
| checks, but accepting the draw wouldn't be my first instinct.
| btilly wrote:
| Their thinking was, "We both queen, and queen+king against
| queen+king is a draw." And normally it is.
| WJW wrote:
| I assume there were still other pieces? Otherwise he can just
| trade queens and it would still be a draw.
| topynate wrote:
| It's a skewer - the White Queen on a8, the Black King on f3
| and the Black Queen on h1 all lie on the long diagonal. The
| King has to move and it can't protect the Queen on h1.
| WJW wrote:
| Ah now I see. I didn't visualize the board enough and only
| checked that none of the kings were close to the promotion
| squares. Thanks for explaining :)
| [deleted]
| every wrote:
| I had a chess phase. I used to play a guy with some national
| ranking. He wiped the floor with me. He told me my game pretty
| much sucked but he enjoyed playing me because I was always seeing
| and doing things that would have never occurred to him. And that
| was the apex of my chess career...
| INTPenis wrote:
| Heh that sounds just like my story with my dad. He was national
| champ in the 80s. I never had enough interest in the game to
| get good, would rather play Doom on his DOS computer than
| chess.
|
| But whenever we did play I'd make brainless moves and he'd get
| this puzzled look on his face and start thinking. He once told
| me the same thing, that I make unusual moves that forces him to
| rethink his strategy.
| tonguez wrote:
| thanks for sharing
| pmoriarty wrote:
| I used to play a lot of chess, and it totally took over my life.
| So I never play it anymore, because for me it's too addictive.
|
| For some people (like some of these hustlers and others who can
| make a living from it) that's ok, but for me I wanted more from
| life than just playing chess all the time and thinking about
| nothing but chess.. but for certain types of people it has a way
| of sucking you in and can be a way of avoiding life.
|
| However, there were plenty of positive things I learned from
| chess, like thinking ahead, being able to concentrate in
| distracting environments, and having lots of patience.
| tartoran wrote:
| I've had my chess learning period followed by obsessive play up
| to a point that after playing a few hours daily I'd see those
| patterns in my mind's eye for a while afterwards. I realized it
| 's not something healthy and I stopped playing altogether.
|
| Recently I started playing online from time to time and want to
| make sure it never becomes an obsession again. Learning how to
| lose gracefully is an important milestone in one's quest for
| maturity.
|
| Generally chess has some wisdom that can be carried out in
| other areas of life. One point worth mentioning is that no
| matter how complicated a situation has become there's quite
| often a good way out of it if one keeps calm and looks out for
| solutions.
| toss1 wrote:
| Yup
|
| My grandfather said that "Too many great minds have been wasted
| playing chess.", and so always played checkers with me, always
| kind and teaching, but never rolling over. It took me years to
| win, but I still remember the three times I did before he
| passed away when I was 13. I've hardly ever played again.
| Played enough chess in HS to learn how, a few openings and just
| enough games to understand the intensity. I could definitely
| see what he meant, and it's probably a good thing my passion
| was already for alpine ski racing, which has similar intensity
| but is naturally a bit self-limiting (e.g., the lifts close and
| you have to go in).
|
| I've since read the saying to the effect that "Being able to
| play chess is a sign of intelligence, being able to plat chess
| very well is a sign of a wasted life.". Seems to ring true,
| except for the true greats.
| bluedino wrote:
| First one is Einstein(?) and the second is Paul Morphy
| AmericanChopper wrote:
| "The ability to play chess is the sign of a gentleman. The
| ability to play chess well is the sign of a wasted life." -
| Paul Morphy
|
| There's absolutely no limit to the amount of time your could
| spend getting better at chess. I personally lost interest due
| to the excessive levels of memorisation involved, which was
| also one of Fischer's main complaints about the game.
| pmoriarty wrote:
| _" I personally lost interest due to the excessive levels of
| memorisation involved"_
|
| You could play Fischer Random Chess (aka Chess360), which
| relieves players of the need to memorize openings, as there
| are way too many opening positions to make memorization
| practical.
| paulcole wrote:
| Same for me but with Scrabble. Saw the same thing in that
| scene. I don't necessarily want more from life, but I didn't
| want to be obsessed with Scrabble any longer.
| jamiek88 wrote:
| And it's just 100% memorization. The French champion doesn't
| even speak French for example.
| paulcole wrote:
| Don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole, but it's
| definitely not 100% memorization. You have to know the
| words and which one to play. The "right" one to play is
| usually obvious, but on 2-4 turns per game, the strategy
| becomes very very very important.
|
| With perfect word knowledge and garbage strategy you could
| probably be around the 25-50th best human player and with a
| fair bit of luck, would win some big tournaments
| eventually.
| mi100hael wrote:
| I've noticed that the #1 positive thing I learned from chess is
| rarely mentioned by others, and I'm not sure why that is. For
| me it was:
|
| Pattern recognition.
|
| I many cases (at least at the intermediate level),
| winning/losing games doesn't come down to who can "think three
| moves ahead," it comes down to whether someone can recognize
| that a pattern of three moves will result in a particular
| outcome. It may be a nuance, but it's actually an important one
| because it eliminates the notion that someone has to be of
| above-average intelligence and discover new moves on the fly to
| succeed.
|
| In actuality, that skill of pattern recognition can be
| practiced, honed, and applied in numerous areas of life.
| Playing chess is such a pure form of the skill that it opened
| my eyes to how many other activities can benefit from a similar
| approach.
| curiousllama wrote:
| Definitely agree. It's not even super purposeful recognition.
| It's a feeling like "this seems bad", and looking for why,
| only to figure out your opponent's likely plan.
|
| It's much better to be less intelligent and have that
| feeling, than be more intelligent and not even know to look
| for the danger.
| riotnrrd wrote:
| That's a well-known aspect of "expert" level chess player
| thinking! There's a famous experiment that demonstrated this.
| Researchers briefly showed set-up chess boards to novices
| (little to no chess experience) and expert players (2000+
| ELO) and then asked the players to recreate the board they
| just saw. If the set-up was from a real game (not necessarily
| a famous or studied game) experts performed far, far better.
| However, if the chess board was just a random scramble of
| pieces, novices and experts had the same recall ability.
| Essentially, expert players saw the patterns at work in
| legitimate mid-game set-ups and this helped the recall task.
| weekendvampire wrote:
| There's also a guy who plays in Times Square in the evenings
| who's really fun to talk to. I've played him twice and lost badly
| both times, but one day...
| saucymew wrote:
| I've played in the NY parks, Marcel is the best player of the
| bunch interviewed here. Sadly, after COVID most of the
| Bryant/Union Sq games seem to have disappeared. It's mostly
| Washington Sq now.
|
| But there's this one guy who comes and goes. Always wears these
| dapper, beautiful robes, and plays up to $100/game. I've yet to
| work myself up to step up to play him...
|
| Can't wait to visit the park games next time.
| georgeoliver wrote:
| There were a half dozen or so tables in Union Square a week
| ago. Bryant unfortunately wasn't happening, though I noticed
| the chairs on that side of the park were chained up, so maybe
| they haven't opened it yet.
| everly wrote:
| E.G.G.S. was my favorite:
|
| "This guy over here, Abdul. He's Vice President of the Pace
| University Chess Club. Now, you hear somebody tell you they're
| the vice president of a university chess club, you're going to
| automatically think they're good. So when he tells people they
| have a 95% chance of beating him, they think he's hustling. But
| it's actually the truth. He's not very good."
| jsnodlin wrote:
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