[HN Gopher] What happens if you try to download and install Fire...
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What happens if you try to download and install Firefox on Windows
Author : tosh
Score : 408 points
Date : 2022-04-03 12:40 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (twitter.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (twitter.com)
| shreddit wrote:
| Just today i took the initiative to replace windows 11 with
| ubuntu on my laptop. Turns out there is a touchpad bug under
| wayland/gnome which makes it almost impossible to "two finger"
| scroll (it's way too fast). There are plenty of bug reports, but
| no fix in sight. There are some workarounds, but they bring their
| own problems.
|
| 2h later i was back on windows 10 (yes 10, not 11), and wsl...
| ravel-bar-foo wrote:
| Try Ubuntu-MATE, not GNOME. Scroll speed is in a settings
| dialog.
| fartcannon wrote:
| Which laptop? Is it just with Ubuntu? You know there are other
| options, right? You don't have to give up on your rights and
| dignity because of one tiny hiccup.
| grnmamba wrote:
| Software that cannot properly handle scroll inputs is broken.
| [deleted]
| easton wrote:
| Open a shell. winget install -s winget firefox
|
| Done.
| forgotpwd16 wrote:
| So `winget` is now installed by default. Nice to see that not
| everything is about making Windows a worse experience.
| rejectfinite wrote:
| https://ninite.com/
|
| A tip.
|
| Collects installers in one exe.
|
| Great for new installs to grab software in one go.
| SECProto wrote:
| I've heard of that service before, but I don't personally trust
| it. As an alternative, you can just download the installers
| before reformatting. Personally, I keep a folder ready with up-
| to-date installers: any time a program updates on my current
| install, I copy the installer into a folder on my second hdd.
| Whenever I reformat, the folder on that secondary hdd is there
| ready to go.
| causality0 wrote:
| I don't understand how this kind of petulant child behavior isn't
| the first topic for any journalist in contact with a Microsoft
| representative for any reason. It's as if Jeff Bezos was walking
| around with his weiner hanging out but somehow only got asked
| questions about Amazon's fourth quarter numbers.
| hotpotamus wrote:
| I never really understood the parable of "The Emperor's New
| Clothes" until the last few years, but at the deepest level
| it's about the ability for the powerful to create their own
| reality and enforce it on others. When do you think Bezos last
| heard the word "no" in relation to any question he's had?
| ryandrake wrote:
| This is probably an urban legend but I read somewhere that
| when Jeff Bezos uses Amazon, behind the scenes it actually
| routes him to a separate special instance that has all his
| feature requests in it, so nobody has to say "no" to him.
|
| It's just believable enough that I remember it. The higher up
| on the corporate ladder one is, the less possible it is to
| tell him "no."
| goosedragons wrote:
| Probably because if they offend them too much they lose access
| to review samples, representatives, previews, events etc. which
| puts them a curve behind competitors that play nice so they get
| less clicks after the initial story.
| nicce wrote:
| Money talks, like it always seems to do. It is harder to
| trust any review or preview.
| bnt wrote:
| Not only that, but I suspect if you offend 1 big tech player,
| they all talk and others will start ignoring you too.
| teddyh wrote:
| > _It 's as if Jeff Bezos was walking around with his weiner
| hanging out but somehow only got asked questions about Amazon's
| fourth quarter numbers._
|
| Like Lyndon B. Johnson?
| lvs wrote:
| jpeter wrote:
| I think it's time for another multi billion dollar fine for
| microsoft. They learned nothing
| Nemo_bis wrote:
| Unfortunately the European Commission is always playing catch
| up (when it even tries) and it takes 10 years in court to get a
| fine enforced (if it's not struck down).
|
| If you believe the hype, the Digital Markets Act (DMA) will
| change things. (Or, I guess, Microsoft will need to spend a bit
| more to buy compliance from the regulators.)
| https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20220315IP...
| n4bz0r wrote:
| Is that surprising to anyone at this point? Big companies have
| proven times and times again that they _absolutely can_ treat
| their customers the way they do. Whining won 't cut it. Spill all
| the shit you can on Windows, people still won't stop using their
| only daily driver.
|
| More _shocking_ posts about bad Windows and predictable comments
| about Linux to the entropy god.
| itronitron wrote:
| and if you don't set up an MS account you can't install Firefox
| at all, at least with a non-Pro license of Windows
| car_analogy wrote:
| You can't? Explain.
| jotm wrote:
| I'm guessing the need to create a MS account when installing
| Windows?
| itronitron wrote:
| There is some OEM version of Microsoft Windows that comes
| preinstalled on some computers, and if you create a local
| account instead of a 'Microsoft account' when setting up the
| machine then Windows will block you from installing any
| application that isn't in their app store. Two of my family
| members are now happy users of Ubuntu.
| Macha wrote:
| S mode is the name of this restricted variant. Comes on
| surface and low end devices mostly. You need to do the "add
| microsoft account, go to the microsoft store to leave S
| mode, go through what is effectively a OS reinstall, create
| local admin account, remove MS account" dance if you want
| to convert to a regular windows install from it.
| itronitron wrote:
| Yeah, thinking about this from a business strategy
| perspective... it doesn't seem smart to lose an existing
| and future customer by handicapping a low end device.
| Especially when removing windows and installing linux
| restores the device to its full capability.
| grishka wrote:
| Can't you just format the hard drive without ever booting
| into what's on it out of the box and install one of those
| "lite" Windows builds from rutracker that ditch all the
| non-essential parts?
| Macha wrote:
| On the systems this applies to, probably not. There's not
| a keyboard shortcut to enter the UEFI and the reboot into
| UEFI from the OS option requires real local admin access
| which in turn requires you to leave S mode first.
| jacquesm wrote:
| That people accept this stuff is really beyond my
| understanding. You now need a third party's permission and a
| business relationship governed by a large pile of legalese in a
| jurisdiction that isn't yours in order to use a device that you
| bought and paid for.
| FridayoLeary wrote:
| Sounds like an iPhone:)
| drexlspivey wrote:
| I recently bought a Windows laptop for gaming (the only reason to
| still get one imo). The first thing I installed was a network
| inspection tool and proceeded to spend the next 3 hours trying to
| get back some control of my computer by:
|
| * Uninstalling tons of crap (Xbox Live, Edge, McAfee, Cortana
| etc)
|
| * Blocking network access for many processes (Windows Defender
| Smart Screen, GamingServices, Search etc). The latter sends all
| your search queries to bing
|
| * Fiddling with telemetry & privacy settings
|
| After uninstalling Edge I still find places where functionality
| is broken because the OS doesn't respect the default browser
| setting.
| technofiend wrote:
| It takes hours to finish, but tron script [1] automates at
| least some of what you did. It does however use kasperky for
| some tasks, so up to you whether you want to turn those bits
| off.
|
| [1] https://old.reddit.com/r/TronScript/
| Kuinox wrote:
| > I still find places where functionality is broken
|
| Windows uses Edge for webviews, you shouldn't uninstall Edge if
| you want these webview.
|
| While yes, using webviews to render things is awful, you
| shouldn't uninstall edge, it's like uninstalling librairies
| then complain about how things stop working.
| rhklein wrote:
| There is a tool called ,Shut up, Windows 10' that let's you
| deactivate all telemetry and other annoying features with one
| click.
| givinguflac wrote:
| Thanks I've been looking for something like this!
| MaxBarraclough wrote:
| A pity that it's proprietary, I'd far rather that a tool like
| that be Free and Open Source.
|
| A reddit thread [0] suggests using a PowerShell-based
| alternative.
|
| [0] https://old.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/3i766c/shut_up
| _wi...
| pDiddlyDoRight wrote:
| I haven't taken the chance to dig into Win11 to know, but
| before Edge? Internet Explorer was bundled with Windows' Widget
| Kit. Uninstalling IE would break how applications would present
| to the user.
|
| Microsoft makes _very_ weird, deeply hurtful decisions, at a
| depth very few people understand.
| syshum wrote:
| Their decisions are easy to understand if you understand the
| motivations of the company. Which is not to please end user
| consumers buying retail consumer computers
| judge2020 wrote:
| > Uninstalling IE would break how applications would present
| to the user.
|
| It makes sense for developers to use the native html renderer
| when they don't want to have to include a big binary blob
| (Electron/CEF) to do so in their application.
| pygy_ wrote:
| The WebView API and the browser app are not the same thing.
|
| Uninstalling the latter shouldn't touch the former, nor
| should it break the OS.
| can16358p wrote:
| Yup. At worst, the bundled browser may use the built in
| web renderer if applicable for whatever reason perhaps.
|
| But it definitely shouldn't be the other way around.
| grishka wrote:
| Android does it the right way: the web view is a separate
| Chromium instance that doesn't depend on your default
| browser.
| can16358p wrote:
| Yup, I think that's what should be. Installed apps and
| their versions shouldn't affect system components.
| Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote:
| How do you stop the network access for processes?
| drexlspivey wrote:
| I am using an app called Glasswire, similar to Little Snitch
| for MacOS.
| wila wrote:
| Windows Firewall -> Advanced Settings -> change default
| Outbound to "block" on public/domain/private profile.
| [deleted]
| user_7832 wrote:
| Bit surprised no one mentioned using the LTSC releases of
| Windows. They're absolutely barebones (no clock/news/weather,
| media codecs need manual install) but apparently significantly
| faster and less bloated, and they boot faster too. The only
| catch is I'm not sure how you can get one unless you're fond of
| the deep seas.
| GordonS wrote:
| I'm pretty sure you can use LTSC editions if you have the
| Microsoft Action Pack. You can definitely get the Enterprise
| edition (I use it, and there are no ads).
|
| I forget how much it costs, something like $350/year from
| memory, but it's a no-brainer if you are developing for
| Windows, as you get access to loads of software, including
| Visual Studio, Office, something like 10x Windows desktop
| licenses and 5x server licenses, $100/m Azure credits etc.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| I tried out the latest one and it was actually pretty crap.
| The telemetry settings were the same as regular windows (no
| off setting), the same crapware was installed like the
| Windows store, microsoft accounts, news applets etc...
|
| I think the only thing it still has going for it is that it
| doesn't really change all the time. Oh and you can probably
| still install updates whenever you actually want to, because
| it's meant for production systems.
|
| The old LTSB of Windows 7 was indeed a really nice, light and
| no-frills windows release but LTSC has become almost the same
| turd that Windows 10 has :(
| fortran77 wrote:
| Microsoft doesn't install McAfee.
| ecf wrote:
| Pedantic. Every Windows OEM is doing this and M$ seems to
| encourage it to make their windows devices cheaper.
| fortran77 wrote:
| Microsoft Surface machines don't have this. Microsoft
| doesn't like it at all.
| rhexs wrote:
| Microsoft has every fresh windows 10/11 install
| automatically download garbage like candy crush. They
| don't like it at all?
| vikingerik wrote:
| Microsoft hates McAfee and the other malware packages,
| because they know full well how badly they screw up all
| sorts of internal workings of Windows. Much of
| Microsoft's own tech support workload is caused by shitty
| antiviruses. The reason Microsoft made Security
| Essentials / Defender was to deal with that, to displace
| the others and reduce Microsoft's own support workload.
|
| Candy Crush isn't anything like that, it doesn't screw up
| OS functionality. (Well, subjectively, you might consider
| ads and upsells in the UI broken.)
| jeromegv wrote:
| If Microsoft doesn't like it, they could prevent OEM from
| doing it through licensing.
|
| They don't. It's been like that for decades.
| forgotpwd16 wrote:
| >they could prevent OEM from doing it through licensing
|
| Preventing installation of third-party software. This
| will certainly go well in Europe.
| guitarbill wrote:
| They could've had e.g. "Windows Fresh" campaign/symbol
| for vendors to use if it was an unmodified Windows. But
| there's likely no incentive. It cuts into OEM profit, and
| maybe it would reduce support calls?
|
| Ultimately though, most people don't care. And the ones
| that do simply reinstall Windows on a new PC, because
| it's quicker that way.
| tyrfing wrote:
| Unlikely, seems like it would be a huge antitrust issue.
| Google can't dictate what OEMs install either.
| Rastonbury wrote:
| That's not what pedantic means
| rejectfinite wrote:
| Cope.
| sp332 wrote:
| GP didn't say they did.
| vanattab wrote:
| They said they bought a computer with windows not a
| Microsoft PC like a surface.
| drexlspivey wrote:
| Yes that one and a bunch of others are coming from ASUS
| thunderbong wrote:
| Google started doing this with their search. And still does,
| regardless of how many times I say "I'm not interested". And as
| someone else mentioned here, Safari does the same.
|
| And Microsoft follows suit.
|
| Irritating as all hell, but complaints hit HN front page only
| when it comes to Microsoft.
|
| I do wish, though, that Microsoft would take the moral high
| ground.
| Doctor_Fegg wrote:
| Yep. Whenever I search for anything on Safari on my iPhone, the
| search results page has a static div saying "Fast access to
| Google. Get the new Google widget. Get the app". Close it with
| the 'x', and it reappears next time.
|
| So far I've stuck with Google on my phone simply because its
| local search is better than Kagi's, but I'm this far away from
| jumping to Kagi on the phone too.
| zamadatix wrote:
| Apple has been blocking 3rd party browsers on iOS for 15 years,
| it's only going to make the front page so many times. Similarly
| macOS has held a pretty consistent stream and lets switching be
| easy, limiting it to some notifications which really isn't that
| unreasonable. Microsoft lately has been on a rampage to go from
| it being relatively frictionless to it being as scary and
| inconvenient as possible for the user. At one point even
| requiring the user to manually switch each protocol and file
| extension over to the other browser but allowing Edge to
| automatically change them back for the user!
|
| Google gets similar complaints but it gets stifled because by
| the numbers people are generally trying to install Chrome so
| they don't really care the Google page asks them "do you want
| to install Chrome" when they open it initially. Still scummy
| but most aren't going to complain about being prompted to do
| precisely what they wanted to do.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| nit-pick: They don't block 3rd party browsers, they just
| don't allow 3rd party browsers to have full access to the
| device, so they are less performant than Safari, which does
| have full access.
| colejohnson66 wrote:
| Further nitpick: it's that 3rd party browsers can't provide
| their own JavaScript JIT system, and to use Apple's, the
| developer must use the built in WebKit libraries.
| dan-robertson wrote:
| Well third-party browsers need to use the operating
| system's built-in components for displaying web pages (ie
| WebKit) so one cannot port a desktop browser with its own
| backend (say chrome with Blink/V8 or Firefox with
| Gecko/Spider Monkey) to iOS. You can only create what is
| effectively a safari skin.
|
| It's not all bad though; safari is for example quite good
| at having low power usage.
| paxys wrote:
| I have seen more and more that it is Apple that usually starts
| these practices, and since their users generally give them
| unlimited leeway towards these things (happening right now in
| this very thread!) it becomes the new standard. Then Microsoft,
| Google and others follow suit. The "try Safari" notifications
| when opening Chrome or Firefox have been a thing in macOS
| forever. Same with advertising and upsells built into the OS.
| fay59 wrote:
| For a while, there would be a macOS notification suggesting
| that you try Safari after updating. This notification should
| be gone with the latest macOS. Are you talking about
| something else?
| paxys wrote:
| Don't know about updating, but that notification is also
| triggered when you open Chrome or Firefox.
| UnpossibleJim wrote:
| Ok, I realize this is my fault for scrolling down in the comments
| in the dumpster fire that is Twitter. That being said, I have a
| question:
|
| What's with the Mozilla Firefox being leftist/Communist
| propaganda thing? Is it a meme or flat out ignorance? It seems to
| based solely on their logo, which is ridiculous.
|
| I do apologize for being off topic.
| AlexandrB wrote:
| I think they're mad because Mozilla used imagery similar to old
| communist posters[1]? But I find so many inscrutable claims on
| Twitter that I generally just ignore them. A lot of them are
| either axe grinding from decades ago or strange culture war
| positions that make no sense unless you're already steeped in
| those communities.
|
| [1]
| https://mobile.twitter.com/othala__/status/15106138125541744...
| Nemo_bis wrote:
| Might be the "If you're so smart, why aren't you rich?"
| syndrome in USA. Because Microsoft is very rich, some people
| will automatically side with it and think that people who
| oppose Microsoft must be losers (which is then equated with
| whatever is a loser in their mind).
| https://www.technologyreview.com/2018/03/01/144958/if-youre-...
| jotm wrote:
| Do they do it for Chrome, though? At the very least they could
| steal some market share from Google heh
| sorry_outta_gas wrote:
| yes
| jefftk wrote:
| They do it for Chrome as well, which makes sense. Doing it for
| Firefox feels a bit petty, though?
| praash wrote:
| Yep. Their argument is "it's already based on Chrome, but
| improved(tm) by Microsoft".
|
| Obviously, they want to add their own telemetry,
| advertisements, and "helpful suggestions" like this.
| Derbasti wrote:
| On the one hand, WSL has made Windows truly viable as a developer
| platform. But on the other hand, this sort of aggressive
| marketing bullshit makes it such an unfriendly place to be. I
| want my computer to treat me as an adult. Since it increasingly
| doesn't, I did the adult thing and walked away. If a relationship
| turns abusive, one must leave.
|
| I would love to be able to pay for "Windows Professional" or
| something to get rid of this bullshit. But I guess my eyeballs
| are more valuable than my dollars. In that case, MS will get
| neither.
|
| I moved back to Linux two months ago because of shit like this.
| Good riddance. Thankfully wine acts as the WSL for Linux, and
| makes the migration possible.
| lucb1e wrote:
| > I would love to be able to pay for "Windows Professional" or
| something to get rid of this bullshit.
|
| That's kinda what I felt this Pro version was for, back in the
| good old days that would get you extra features useful for
| power users, but then recently they pulled this:
|
| > New Windows 11 Pro installations will require Microsoft
| account
|
| -- 2022-02-18
| https://tweakers.net/nieuws/193418/windows-11-pro-installati...
|
| Basically the last credibility they had with me, with all the
| linux and open source things they've been doing since ballmer
| is gone. So uh yeah thanks microsoft, imma stay with
| Debian+Cinnamon a bit longer here o/
| dizkodo wrote:
| Microsoft's being really aggressive now it seems. Won't even
| allow you to install Windows Pro without having an internet
| connection AND a Microsoft account? They seem adamant to keep
| as many people as they can on Windows 10.
| rootw0rm wrote:
| Hmm, this wasn't true for me. I just did a fresh install of
| Windows 11 Pro, and I wasn't required to have a Microsoft
| account...I did however install from a Windows 11 N source,
| and updated the license to my Education key shortly after
| installation.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| It only requires this in the very latest insider beta. It
| hasn't reached mainstream yet.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > New Windows 11 Pro installations will require Microsoft
| account
|
| I don't really understand why this is a problem for you, let
| alone such a major problem. Takes two seconds to set up an
| account. I don't even use Windows and I already have one!
| riidom wrote:
| If your OS installation is bound to an account, and this
| account is blocked for some reason (which is not too hard
| to imagine, since on HN there is a post about such things
| happening twice a week) - what may be the consequences of
| this?
| johnny22 wrote:
| I've been totally ok with folks getting booted from
| twitter/social media sites for various reasons. But
| access to fundamental resources like your own computer or
| primary email address is a different story. The rules
| need to be much more stringent there
|
| You shouldn't lose your gmail account for being an
| asshole on youtube, and one shouldn't lose their access
| to their local computer even for commiting fraud on the
| MS app store (whatever it's called)
|
| One should be able to get banned from gmail if you really
| break the rules of course, but great care needs to be
| taken, and the same care (and even more) to make sure you
| don't lose access to your own computer.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > what may be the consequences of this?
|
| Need to get a new computer? Doesn't seem the end of the
| world for such an unlikely act.
| akoncius wrote:
| so.. in that case it means computer belings to MS even if
| I paid full price?
| userbinator wrote:
| Imagine that all your files have been helpfully encrypted
| --- for your security, of course --- with a key that is
| bound to that account you can no longer use.
|
| I'm not sure if this is possible or the default now on
| Windows, but it's common for mobile devices.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| You've got backups. Right?
|
| And Microsoft already controls all your software if
| you're running Windows. It could already delete your
| files if they wanted to.
| lucb1e wrote:
| If you speak or care to translate Dutch, you might also be
| interested in this other article on the same site:
|
| https://tweakers.net/reviews/9094/all/account-geblokkeerd-
| wa...
|
| Excerpt via Deepl.com:
|
| > In all the conversations, it comes out how powerless
| people feel. You might think that if a company decides to
| algorithmically block people, there is a support department
| that can easily reverse mistakes, but that is not true. The
| department that deals with it is hard to reach. Or, as one
| customer service rep told BroncoJasperado, "The only team
| that has access to this is the team that you can reach
| through the form you already filled out. They are also not
| reachable by phone and are not located in an office that
| you can visit."
|
| These are paying customers of Microsoft's.
|
| Recently also a Dutch judge said MS had to unblock an
| account because MS could not provide the evidence why it
| was blocked. Something about american laws and child
| pornography that was allegedly stored on the account (I can
| look up the article if you want).
|
| In most cases, the judge just rules it's fine because
| they're a commercial service and they are under no
| obligation to have you as a customer. You have to sue to
| even hear as much as "the cause was X" (even if they then
| can't/won't/don't provide X as evidence). There is little
| to no recourse.
|
| A typical user whose MS account is banned might lose access
| to:
|
| - Their game collection in Xbox / game pass
|
| - All documents, pictures, etc. in OneDrive. A family
| member actually has all documents for their business on
| OneDrive because there is this history thing (can't
| permanently remove things by accident), MS guarantees your
| backups, it's all hands-off and super safe. On my
| recommendation, they did end up making an offline backup
| just in case... but I imagine that for every person like
| that family member, there are also a hundred business
| owners that would simply lose their business data.
|
| - Microsoft Office products bought via 365
|
| - Presumably purchases on the microsoft app store, but last
| I checked it contained only a few dummy apps and had
| horrible UX so I don't know how much this is used now
|
| - Your email on Outlook.com
|
| - And now also their computer? What is this, ransomware?
|
| So for me, my Microsoft account being banned (one of
| probably a dozen by now) would have as impact that I can't
| play a game anymore that I paid for. I'd be pissed but it
| gets so much worse if you're a Windows user.
|
| And it's not just MS, it's also Google (there the worst I
| could lose is a Youtube account where I've uploaded a few
| unpopular videos over the past decade), Facebook, etc.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| The problem isn't the set up process. It's the practice of
| having to have one.
|
| I don't even care if I have a MS account or not but I
| really don't want it linked to my own computer. It means
| someone with access to my MS account can access my computer
| too, and it means Microsoft can collate all my recorded
| telemetry activity to my identity.
| fortyseven wrote:
| PeterisP wrote:
| It's perfectly natural to not want to have an account even
| if it's trivial to make, and even if you already have one,
| it's a basic privacy desire to refuse to link your computer
| to this account.
|
| It's also a reasonable desire to have your computer local
| authentication be completely separate any from Microsoft
| service, ensuring that the events are private and don't
| even get communicated to Microsoft, much less being able to
| circumvent local authentication by anyone who is in control
| of that cloud account.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > it's a basic privacy desire to refuse to link your
| computer to this account
|
| Seems a bit tin-foil in these days.
|
| Which is a fine preference for an individual if they're
| into that scene, but you can understand why Microsoft
| doesn't care about such a tiny proportion of society.
| RHSeeger wrote:
| > Seems a bit tin-foil in these days.
|
| I find it amazing that you can say such a thing with a
| serious face. Time after time, we learn that the question
| isn't "are you paranoid", it's "are you paranoid enough".
| State actors trying to get your data, hackers trying to
| get and sell your data, hackers trying to lock down your
| computer and blackmail you; the list goes on and on. The
| less "connections" you have to third party services, the
| safer you are.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| No you've got the wrong end of the stick.
|
| The point is that refusing to sign up for a Microsoft
| account is not going to protect you against this
| supervision if someone wants to do it.
| fartcannon wrote:
| Yeah, the only reasonable defence is not to use a closed
| OS like Microsoft or OSX.
| 0des wrote:
| We can generate power to feed the world off the anger and
| resentment you're building right now. Partner up with me
| and we can submit this to YC. I'll give you 50%.
| quantum_solanum wrote:
| Almost like Microsoft deliberately helped marginalize the
| position because it's profitable!
| chrisseaton wrote:
| How many niche preferences can Microsoft be expected to
| accommodate?
|
| What about people who refuse to use capital letters? Can
| you use Windows without using capital letters?
|
| At some point it's reasonable to design for most people.
| salawat wrote:
| Congratulations. You strawmanned. So where does the heap
| fallacy start kicking in? Because every feature I see
| delivered seems more tuned for keeping a PM working than
| actually making the user's life any easier.
|
| They gave up every pretense of gaining or humoring
| "consent" when the implemented Cortana's little "you need
| to agree to this or, ya know, no windows" bs.
| Silhouette wrote:
| _Seems a bit tin-foil in these days._
|
| These days? Surely these days it is beyond any reasonable
| doubt that not only were a lot of the tin-foil
| fashionistas right all along but also the suggested
| dangers of modern always-connected technology do now
| actually harm real people in real ways quite often. Just
| look at the subject of this very discussion.
|
| The most disturbing thing is that it's still only a
| relatively small proportion of society who will actively
| try to avoid the trap. From my own experience it's not
| even that the others don't care -- plenty of them are
| well aware of what is being done to them and they don't
| like it -- but they think the alternatives are just as
| bad and they're (reasonably enough) not willing to become
| digital hermits who are disconnected from normal life
| just to avoid the likes of Microsoft, Google and Apple.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > The most disturbing thing is that it's still only a
| relatively small proportion of society who will actively
| try to avoid the trap.
|
| If people had genuine security concerns why would they be
| using stock Windows connected directly to the Internet in
| the first place?
| AlchemistCamp wrote:
| Does anyone _not_ have genuine security concerns given
| how expansive and personal computing has become?
|
| We're not talking about a single app or website. MS is a
| trillion dollar corporation that controls both the OS and
| in many cases the hardware layer.
|
| The "stock" version has unjustifiable defaults and I quit
| using Windows myself a few years ago due to exactly the
| issues people in this thread are complaining about.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > We're not talking about a single app or website. MS is
| a trillion dollar corporation that controls both the OS
| and in many cases the hardware layer.
|
| Right... so why are people so stubborn on insignificant
| details like signing up for an account?
|
| Microsoft already controls all the software on your
| system if you're running Windows.
| 0des wrote:
| I just want to say that I admire your dedication to your
| position, as devils advocate here. Even if your
| justifications for these are all basically "so what who
| doesn't mind police doing a little searchypooo at random
| what's the harm, you're not doing anything wrong right?
| It doesnt have to be a problem just lettem touch your
| weewee a little"
| Silhouette wrote:
| Because it's what comes on the computer they bought from
| the store and because they don't know enough to do any
| different? Most people aren't tech experts. They buy a
| computer to do stuff and they follow the instructions in
| front of them or maybe ask someone they know for help.
| AniseAbyss wrote:
| grenoire wrote:
| You can obtain (in your preferred way) a copy of Windows 10
| LTSC (IoT optional). I run it, and can develop, do
| administrative work, play games, and more. I have not had any
| issues with it. I think there's some littered telemetry but
| man, I just deal with it.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| Does Xbox overlay and all the Windows gaming integrations
| work? I've found a cheap LTSC license and might just give
| this a try later today.
|
| I only use Windows as my second boot option for emergencies
| when I can't use Linux.
| grenoire wrote:
| Most features are simply disabled by default but can be
| toggled. You can bloat it all the way up to a regular
| Windows 10 installation.
| [deleted]
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| LTSC is unfortunately no longer the privacy bastion it used
| to be (especially in the LTSB days).
|
| It now has the same choice of (only a little / very much)
| telemetry that regular windows has, has the ability to link
| microsoft accounts etc. The only real advantage is that they
| don't really push any new things to it.
| dartharva wrote:
| What's the difference between generic and IoT LTSC? And does
| it support the winget app package manager?
| layer8 wrote:
| Unfortunately, with the current LTSC release Microsoft
| reduced the lifetime from 10 to 5 years.
| npteljes wrote:
| >Since it increasingly doesn't, I did the adult thing and
| walked away. If a relationship turns abusive, one must leave.
|
| I'm happy how you formulated this thought. I feel the same way.
| I don't deserve this level of distrust and micromanagement in
| my own digital home. In my opinion a Professional edition that
| really works like one would solve this issue for real but
| again, my conclusion is the same, that the end goal must not be
| to make a good operating system.
|
| Linux is a haven compared to the state of things and especially
| in this regard. And Wine is a wonder.
| fartcannon wrote:
| Don't forget the BSDs!
| [deleted]
| userbinator wrote:
| On _a recent version of Windows_ , to be precise.
|
| Microsoft used to be far less abusive than this. You installed it
| and it would just stay silent. I think things changed starting
| around Windows 8, then got much worse with 10, and the trend
| continues with 11.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| I found the forced full screen start menu in Windows 8
| incredibly user-abusive to be honest.
|
| Windows 10 started out pretty nice but all the tie-ins with
| their services and telemetry have become way too heavy.
| sdeframond wrote:
| Does it do anything similar when trying to install Chrome?
| durnygbur wrote:
| Microsoft is like Russia. Just in the moment you thought they
| chilled, you discover they've been plotting something vile,
| nasty, and violent.
| mhitza wrote:
| I see, so they only had to give EU users a choice up to (and
| including) Windows 7 https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/eu-
| resolves-microsof...
| isoprophlex wrote:
| Chemotherapy again this malignant bullshit:
| open cmd.exe with admin privileges > cd
| %PROGRAMFILES(X86)%\Microsoft\Edge\Application\[SOME VERSION
| NO.]\Installer > setup --uninstall --force-uninstall
| --system-level
|
| Prevent recurrence with some registry editing:
| > create new key HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft/EdgeUpdate
| > create "DWORD (32-bit) Value" and call it
| "DoNotUpdateToEdgeWithChromium"
|
| (Source: https://www.tomsguide.com/how-to/how-to-uninstall-
| microsoft-...)
| eckza wrote:
| > and set the new DoNotUpdateToEdgeWithChromium value to 1
|
| Thanks for posting this.
| Liquix wrote:
| It's also worth trying an OS which respects you as a user (such
| as GNU/Linux)
| rejectfinite wrote:
| I have games and other software that wont run or wont run as
| well on Linux.
|
| Work is also done on a domain joined Windows laptop.
|
| This "just switch to linux lol" is so dumb.
| bamboozled wrote:
| For games, why not just have a console and a Mac for
| everything else?
|
| I can't believe there is any good reason for people to run
| Windows on their PC in 2022?
| Lev1a wrote:
| > For games, why not just have a console
|
| Why would I want to buy some box for hundreds of
| euros/dollars that only plays games:
|
| - with worse quality
|
| - with no mod support for basically any game
|
| - requires you to pay extra for basic features (e.g.
| looking at you, Nintendo, with your "savegames are not on
| the SD card but locked to the console unless you pay a
| subscription to back them up online, so if your Switch
| kicks it, they're gone"; etc etc)
|
| - last I heard basically no setting customizability and
| locked framerates all over the place, like Bloodborne
| locked at 30fps with no anti-aliasing
|
| - exclusivity garbage
|
| - almost always controller-only input: shooters and
| (other) first-person games with controller? No thank you!
|
| - the list goes on and on
|
| Nowadays, with Proton I can play basically anything I
| want on Steam on my Ubuntu PC with minimal _if any_ added
| effort (actually none in recent memory) with no problems,
| parity in frame-rate and stability to when I was gaming
| on Windows years ago.
|
| Granted, I mostly stay away from the garbage that is
| regularly barely warmed-up and churned out by those
| greedy MTX-peddling bloodsuckers known as the "AAA
| industry".
| rejectfinite wrote:
| Different games.
|
| Games like FF7R, GTA, anmy RPG etc, sure I play on
| playstation.
|
| Good luck playing CSGO, Valorant, Leauge of Legends and
| my already massive Steam library on PS4 lol
|
| Why would you suggest this as a "solution"
|
| I run Windows 10 as it runs the software I want. Im on an
| install from 2015 when it came out and after chaning the
| default browser, desktop background, some settings
| customization, its fine.
|
| I can also use my own desktop hardware. I have a i7
| 4790k, 32GB RAM and a 1070ti 3x 1440p monitors. Why
| should I get a Mac?
| DanHulton wrote:
| You must not play many games.
|
| There are a variety of games for PC that just aren't on
| console. If you want to play them, you do not have any
| alternative.
|
| There are a variety of games where you need a mouse, or
| have grown up using a mouse, and switching to constroller
| is like asking someone who runs marathons to switch to
| sack racing. This is not an alternative on consoles.
|
| Games are frequently cheaper on PC. MUCH cheaper. If
| you're on a budget, it's hard to justify.
|
| Not all multiplayer games are cross-system compatible,
| and many never will be. If your friends play on PC, you
| can't switch to console without agreeing to never play
| with them again. Maybe you'll be the one to start the
| exodus if you try, but maybe not. That's a lot to ask of
| people, to buy a new console, rebuy all their old games,
| and then be okay with all the above-mentioned issues,
| including the network effect of your friends' friends who
| all play on PC, etc.
|
| In short, there are quite a number of valid reasons to
| run Windows on your PC, especially if you play games.
| kibwen wrote:
| I too wondered about how switching away from Windows
| would impact my access to games. My earliest memories are
| about games. My entire childhood was spent playing games,
| to the detriment of any other activity. My first non-
| burger-flipping job was in the gaming industry. Games are
| constantly on my mind. I love video games. But today, in
| practice, I don't miss any Windows-only games.
|
| The first observation is that we're in a golden age of
| video gaming. There are so many quality games coming out,
| for every platform, that you could spend the rest of your
| life playing only the games available today and barely
| even make a dent in the backlog. The world has too many
| games as it is (which isn't a bad thing, to be clear).
|
| The second observation is that, even though there are so
| many objectively high-quality games, I've become bored of
| almost all of them. Almost none of them have anything new
| to offer, and are, at best, refinements on existing
| formulas. Now that I'm older, I've seen all the formulas.
| For younger people, maybe they would suffer from not
| getting to have some formative experience in some
| Windows-only game. But I've put in my 10,000 hours, twice
| over, making me an expert in video games, and in my
| expert opinion I'm not missing out.
| goosedragons wrote:
| > Games are frequently cheaper on PC. MUCH cheaper. If
| you're on a budget, it's hard to justify.
|
| It's not really the truth anymore. At best it's a couple
| of bucks on sale, day 1 prices are typically the same and
| have been for 10+ years at this point, PSN/XBL regularly
| have sales that are just as or close to as steep as Steam
| or even cheaper. Plus you can still resell that physical
| PS5 game and get something back which you haven't been
| able to do on PC for a while.
| howinteresting wrote:
| You can't mod games on consoles, while it's an integral
| part of PC gaming.
|
| Gaming on Linux is really good these days though!
| unethical_ban wrote:
| For track racing, why not buy a golf cart? I see no
| reason for someone to want a sports car in 2022.
|
| It should be clear that there is a big difference between
| PC gaming and console gaming experiences.
|
| And I own about a hundred games on Windows, and I still
| think Linux file manager GUIs are awkward compared to
| Windows.
| gruez wrote:
| >For games, why not just have a console
|
| which is even more locked down than a PC and probably
| sends even more telemetry?
| isoprophlex wrote:
| Yeah I fully agree... incidentally I started a new job april
| 1st, my employer provided me with a windows laptop. That's
| why I had this knowledge ready.
|
| First windows experience in many years, it's been equally
| gross and amusing.
| rejectfinite wrote:
| >it's been equally gross and amusing.
|
| How?
|
| A domain joined Windows laptop should have GPOs to remove
| the ads and shit also SCCM/Intune software center / company
| portal to install the apps you need.
| isoprophlex wrote:
| Gross because the lock screen insists on serving me dumb
| ass photos with """interesting""" factoids, in an attempt
| to ???
|
| Gross because I clicked somewhere by accident and the
| bottom right of my screen was filled with news snippets
| and some MS ads.
|
| Hilarious because I wanted to change the (default ?) UI
| scaling from 150 to 100%; there was no obvious way to
| just type "scaling" somewhere and get to the point,
| instead I navigated three layers deep through the
| settings panel, which had three different visual design
| styles. I read all the windows design snark on HN,
| without really knowing what is what... turns out it
| REALLY is as bad as people make it out to be, haha.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| You're giving the average IT department far, far too much
| credit.
| rejectfinite wrote:
| I work in one that does this so maybe?
|
| Having some kind of Windows 10 "golden image" with
| SCCM/Intune/PDQ for apps is fairly standard.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Useless platitudes. It's a bit of victim blaming. Yes, I
| believe any Windows user is a victim. However, do you really
| think this person on HN would not switch to Linux if they did
| not have compelling reasons for _having_ to use Windows?
| hyperman1 wrote:
| It's victim blaming in the same way the partner of an
| abusive spouse gets told to just leave the spouse. Yes,
| partner is a victim, but there is a clear action to end the
| abuse.
| nerdponx wrote:
| I actually love Windows (although I haven't used 11 yet and
| probably never will).
|
| Maybe it's just what I grew up with, but all the native
| widget interactions feel perfect, even after the Win 8
| style transition. The mouse acceleration is exactly what I
| expect. The taskbar behaves precisely how I want a taskbar
| to behave. The filesystem layout is refreshingly
| straightforward compared to the Unix/Posix FHS. Windows
| Defender does its job and gets out of the way (remember
| Norton/McAfee and Spybot?). And there are a ton of nice
| graphical "power user" applications available.
|
| Part of the reason I like KDE so much is that it feels so
| Windows-like. But every time I boot into my Windows
| desktop, I feel a bit sad knowing that there is nothing
| quite like it in the GNU/Linux world.
|
| There is that one Windows-API-compatible OS, but I have no
| idea if that will ever be viable as a daily driver.
| p1peridine wrote:
| I agree, but
|
| > Windows Defender does its job and gets out of the way
|
| WD is easily bypassed [1]. It's all smoke and mirrors -
| Microsoft has never cared about security. The OS is full
| of wontfix exploits (this is frowned upon to talk about
| in the security research community, especially among the
| big players, wonder why...)
|
| One would benefit in exploring the thought that WD is
| valuable for MS in the way that it can be used to
| restrict 'personal computing' - the applications you
| download and use, the files you download and create, all
| recorded and hashed in some database, all under the guise
| of security. DeCSS is a good example [2].
|
| One would also benefit in exploring the thought of the
| possibility that MS spends significant amounts of money
| in paying off MS partners, researchers, news outlets etc.
| to convince the public that defender will keep you safe.
|
| I repeat, Microsoft does not care about security. That
| said, a properly hardened Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC with
| telemetry removed [3], along with a third-party/router
| firewall is the way to go, in my opinion.
|
| [1] https://github.com/search?o=desc&q=Windows+Defender&s
| =update...
|
| [2] https://www.arch13.com/ms-windows-defender-decss/
|
| [3] https://www.bsi.bund.de/EN/Topics/Cyber-
| Security/Recommendat...
| CSm1n wrote:
| The repositories shown on the first page of GitHub search
| are not actual exploits. They all expect to be run
| through an admin powershell/command line. Under normal
| conditions (default user and UAC on) you will get a
| warning before the script is able to gain administrative
| access. Try to run them again under a normal user and
| they won't be able to disable/bypass Defender.
|
| It's the same as sudo'ing an unknown script you received
| in an email. At that point you're begging to be pwned.
| p1peridine wrote:
| Sort by Best match or Most stars. Those github repos are
| just examples. Pro malware creators wouldn't just copy
| and paste some code or else it would be detected fairly
| easily.
|
| UAC is easily bypassed as well. In fact, the majority of
| wontfix exploits has something to do with UAC.
|
| > They all expect to be run through an admin
| powershell/command line.
|
| Admin rights will be acquired by using exploits (of which
| there are many) or by using built-in tools found in the
| Windows system directory, for example Wscript.exe. No
| internet connection required. No fetching of external
| files. You have no say in whether you can allow it to run
| or not.
|
| > you will get a warning before the script is able to
| gain administrative access.
|
| False. You wouldn't even know. Not a visible commandline
| window to be seen. It's all silent. A well-developed
| exploit will delete most of it's traces.
|
| This is all pretty basic knowledge in the sec research
| community. Test it and verify it for yourself. I test
| hardening configurations using a Windows VM.
| themacguffinman wrote:
| > There is that one Windows-API-compatible OS
|
| lol don't have to be coy about naming it, it's called
| ReactOS. It's an OS project that attempts to be a clean-
| room implementation of the Windows API. The latest news
| about it popped up yesterday for being able to run some
| old Battlefield games:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30888799
|
| Progress is understandably slow but since Microsoft has
| significantly lowered investment in Windows itself and
| are pivoting away from it to Azure, I can imagine a
| possible but distant future where Windows allows Wine &
| ReactOS to catch up because little beyond surface-level
| UI changes happen on Windows anymore.
| lostgame wrote:
| I'm so tired of hearing this 'just switch to Linux' bullshit.
|
| If you are privileged enough to be in the extreme minority
| who can do that - you probably already have.
|
| I know you know this - but people _need_ proprietary
| software, and they need to not guess if it might possibly
| work through some interpretative layer like WINE.
|
| May I remind you a lot of people _pay for software_ they need
| to use, and sometimes need support or updates that they
| certainly won't be guaranteed if they are trying to run
| software on unsupported systems.
|
| If you are somehow privileged enough to not be in that group,
| you are an extreme - extreme - outlier, and good for you, but
| don't bury your head in the sand and forget that for 99% of
| people, that's obviously not a possibility - whatsoever -
| including at least 90% of the workforce who gets handed a
| laptop and use whatever they have to use.
|
| It's just _so_ irritating to constantly hear this 'just go to
| Linux' bullshit when it's not like Linux users aren't _aware_
| that it can't work for the majority of people.
|
| If I switch to Linux, I lose Photoshop, Logic Pro, Final Cut
| Pro, Unity, as well as a handful of plug-ins. That's $1k plus
| of software I have paid for and rely on, that I instantly
| lose access to?!
|
| The _value loss_ upon switching to Linux - alone - for most
| people, who have invested into software ecosystems that can't
| be replicated in Linux alone would be astounding.
|
| It's not even the money spent on software, either - it's the
| time invested in learning it.
|
| I know people who run Linux _know_ this - I wonder why they
| seem to have forgotten.
| Zababa wrote:
| People in the workforce that get handed over a laptop with
| Windows usually don't have any control on it due to company
| policies, so this is a non-argument. For the rest, I doubt
| 99% of people actually "need" Windows. 50%? Probably,
| possibly. Also, proprietary software has nothing to do with
| Linux or not Linux, there is proprietary software that's
| not Windows only.
|
| I also don't think any of this is about privilge, it's
| about control. If you want control, you have to work for
| it. That's how everything works in life. People will always
| try to take away from you control. Switching to Linux may
| take work, but it will give you control. Learning a bit
| more Windows (like the operations mentionned earlier, the
| registery) will probably be easier and give you less.
| Everyone can then adjust things depending on how much
| control they want and time/energy they have.
| lostgame wrote:
| I don't get how losing access to the software I need to
| do the things I need to do - have spent quite a bit of
| money on - and a lot of time learning - gives me
| 'control'.
|
| Actually - it doesn't. Plain and simple. I actually
| laughed out loud a little at the comment, ngl.
|
| It's actually that Linux is controlling _me_ and what I
| can do. : / Specifically, what I can't do.
|
| I'd lose thousands of dollars and years of investment
| into learning and using these tools I rely on.
|
| It would cripple me completely, professionally -
| overnight. For real. I'd also lose access to a decade and
| a half of project files from Logic, etc.
|
| It's completely privilege if you happen to be in the
| minority that can find the time and value loss that
| switching to an OS that doesn't allow you to run any
| previous software you've used (except Firefox, maybe :P)
| somehow works for you.
|
| It's funny - I have complete control over my ability to
| do everything I want to do on my Mac.
|
| Switching to Linux immediately takes my entire command
| deck (Logic Pro X, Final Cut Pro X, various plug ins,
| Photoshop, Animator, Maya, Unity3D...I could go on...)
| away from me.
|
| And what's funny is - I have the ability to run most of
| the software I'd run on Linux on my Mac anyway, due to
| its underpinnings.
|
| Then I've still got WINE...
|
| So, the fact is - there are almost _only_ disadvantages
| for a vast number of, especially average users - to
| switch to Linux - and most of that is the time and
| headache involved in unnecessarily learning a new system.
|
| Most people don't want to even deal with computers to
| start. And this leads to the biggest reason we will never
| have the 'year of Linux', and the biggest reason I laugh
| off Linux evangelists as totally ignorant of the 'real
| world'.
|
| _Us nerds really get stuck in our tiny little corner of
| a perspective sometimes_.
|
| Very little demonstrates that more than Linux switcher
| evangelists.
|
| The average person literally knows the like 4-5 tasks
| they need to do on their computer and they _don't want to
| know_ or learn anything else! Like, people are _not like
| we are_ , and any serious Linux evangelist forgot that a
| _long_ time ago.
| dollop43 wrote:
| To be honest, your reaction is so dramatic and I am not
| sure is it something personal.
|
| But I could agree with you on this point. A average
| person literally knows the like 4-5 tasks they need to do
| on their computer and they don't want to know or learn
| anything else. That's true.
|
| Modern software, be it Windows, Mac OS, or you
| productivity tool is going to ruin your workflow by
| introducing non-reversible UI changes that sure no
| purpose other than telling the world that our product is
| not staling. That's the standard practice.
|
| While I am using Linux desktop, with customized config
| that is not changed for years, and I don't need to learn
| a new workflow for these years anymore. That's good and I
| like it because I am getting old.
| Zababa wrote:
| > I don't get how losing access to the software I need to
| do the things I need to do - have spent quite a bit of
| money on - and a lot of time learning - gives me
| 'control'.
|
| We're in a discussion about how you can get Windows to do
| the things you want because of user hostile decisions
| made by Microsoft.
|
| > It's actually that Linux is controlling me and what I
| can do. :/
|
| I don't think it's called "control" when it's due to an
| unconscious agent. Life is not "controlling" you because
| you will die one day. It's how things are. You can
| influence it, like living longer by not smoking, or
| porting over software to linux, or trying stuff out with
| wine or sharing how it works.
|
| > It's completely privilege if you happen to be in the
| minority that can find the time and value loss that
| switching to an OS that doesn't allow you to run any
| previous software you've used somehow works for you.
|
| You're making the fallacy of thinking that switching OS
| means you'll loss all software, which is absolutely
| wrong. Unless you happen to only use desktop apps that
| only work on windows, which puts you in the minority. A
| good part of Excel works online for example, same with
| most of Microsoft Office. Alternative also exists. And
| again, considering the post we're in, people are
| frustrated at windows, they're already spending quite
| some time and energy in trying to fix things or being
| frustrated at things.
|
| You and everyone else are free to invest their time
| however you want. That doesn't mean it's the correct or
| best decision. There's nothing about that that's
| privilege. Some people work with Excel all their life yet
| refuse to learn more of it, even when they are offered
| formations at work. That's not lacking privilege. And
| again, it's perfectly fine if they don't want to do it.
| But the people that instead learn more Excel are not
| privileged in any way.
|
| Edit following yours:
|
| > The average person literally knows the like 4-5 tasks
| they need to do on their computer and they don't want to
| know or learn anything else!
|
| I'm glad we agree that it's in their power to do it and
| that they actually refuse to do anything about it. If you
| consider windows to be becoming too anoying (which is
| what this whole thread is about) and keep complaining and
| not doing anything, this is not because of a lack of
| privilege. This is on you. If windows is working fine for
| you, great! I'm happy to hear it! Same for MacOS.
| However, people are having issues frequently with closed
| source OSes. This one about windows, a recent one about
| MacOS: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30864613. For
| them, switching _might_ be a solution.
|
| I'll add that I don't really see the point of editing
| your comment to be even more snarky and less based on
| facts that it was before. Maybe reading the guidelines
| again would help you?
| mattlondon wrote:
| I would also add that even in 2022 (last time I had a Dell
| Linux machine) lots of stuff simply fails.
|
| E.g. wake from sleep often doesn't, webcams often just stop
| between exiting one video call and starting another,
| Bluetooth often stops, CPU throttling often doesn't do
| anything so you have battery life of 1hr max, external USB
| keyboards often "disappear" etc.
|
| This sort of shit _never_ happens on my personal Windows
| machine, Chromebooks, or work MacBook Pro (that replaced
| the Linux dell). I trust the tech people at my place of
| work to not screw things up in terms of distro, and it has
| been something that I have observed time and time again
| over the years with Linux on different hardware, different
| distros and different corporate environments.
|
| The answer if often "turn it off and on again" (much like
| windows 95) otherwise you are on an tedious trip down
| remote support sessions with dmesg/lsusb/blueman/pulseaudio
| command line messing about. I am sure someone will reply
| "ah you need to make sure you use foo instead of bar!" or
| "that version of Bar is not compatible with Foo" or " your
| distro needs to back port patch Quux" ... that is part of
| the problem and why "just use Linux" doesn't work (yet).
| forgotpwd16 wrote:
| You're underestimating the number of people that could
| switch to Linux but won't because they think it's some
| thing only running in servers.
| can16358p wrote:
| Yup. I'm stuck at using Visual Studio (not Vscode) for a
| legacy codebase for work and it's the only reason that I
| still have to use Windows (though thankfully, in a VM) that
| doesn't work properly on Mono-rebranded-as-Visual-Studio-
| which-isnt-the-same-thing.
|
| I'm a Mac user and can't even consider switching to Linux
| (eventhough I like it) as I use Photoshop, After Effects,
| Sketch, Logic Pro which anyone would probably agree that
| they are unmatched.
|
| Anyone who can completely be on Linux are probably people
| who don't need ANYTHING other than open source
| software/terminals/code editors etc. which is much less in
| percentage (but overlapping with the demographics of here a
| lot).
| wilsonnb3 wrote:
| Not sure of the details of your legacy code base but
| Jetbrains Rider is an excellent .NET IDE that runs on
| MacOS and Linux.
| goosedragons wrote:
| You're also in the extreme minority. Most users don't have
| close to thousands of dollars in paid software and often
| what they do have is something like Microsoft Office that
| has alternatives or easy options to get working like the
| proprietary paid software Crossover (that's right! Linux
| has proprietary paid software!).
|
| It's just as tiring to hear "Linux is unusable, it can't
| run X". For you maybe it can't work but it can work for a
| lot more than just coders.
|
| Honestly I feel like desktop Linux market share would be a
| whole lot larger if the defacto office suite wasn't owned
| by the biggest OS maker...
| zionic wrote:
| I agree, but I only have windows machines as exclusive gaming
| boxes.
|
| No password on login, no web browsing period, no access to
| NAS/media/files, no cloud access etc. just has windows and
| steam/various launchers and peripheral software.
|
| I'm are things like proton exist, but there are a million
| issues with gaming on Linux that I don't feel like writing a
| book about in the comment section. Maybe in a few more
| years...
| nerdponx wrote:
| It's for the better, I think. Everybody gets so concerned
| about privacy and then gives Valve a blank check with the
| Steam launcher.
|
| I almost prefer having it on an isolated system, along with
| the various other game launchers.
|
| I also wish I didn't have to use it to buy games, but it
| seems like any/most PC games are available only through
| Steam, or some equivalently distasteful proprietary
| launcher/platform/portal thing.
| can16358p wrote:
| I think it's about company image.
|
| Microsoft has a long standing reputation for bundling
| crap and bloat its OS, while doing whatever-telemetry and
| harder to catch as the author of the OS itself.
|
| Valve and Steam has a much better reputation for now, and
| is respected by many players. I'm not saying it's perfect
| but at least it's loved by players whereas
| Microsoft/Windows is more into the hated category, for
| good well-deserved reasons.
| forgotpwd16 wrote:
| You can run that stuff if on Windows in Sandboxie or if
| on Linux containerized. For example I run Steam in an LXD
| container.
| [deleted]
| adam0c wrote:
| i mean this is nothing new, it's quite simply one brand aka
| microsoft trying to keep its share of the market, nothing more :/
| maverick74 wrote:
| I really don't understand how this is allowed under the EU law...
|
| But then again... Google uses a lot of dirty tricks as well and
| the EU doesn't do much either so...
| darkwater wrote:
| It is not, as proved by the EU case against Internet Explorer
| what? 15 years ago? I hope they will get fined again as well.
|
| Is Ballmer CEO again?
| jacquesm wrote:
| The idea that Nadella is somehow a saint vs Ballmer's evil is
| really testimony to the fantastic PR exercise that MS has
| been engaging in. But ask yourself where Nadella was working
| when Ballmer was at the helm of MS and you'll see that he
| isn't as much of a change at all, it's just a nicer package.
| goosedragons wrote:
| Apple pulls this crap too. Use a different browser on Mac and
| get a "helpful" notification telling you to try the new Safari.
| Only place you're safe these days is a fully FOSS OS like Linux
| and FreeBSD.
| raverbashing wrote:
| The secret is to not use Safari ;) (which is slightly better
| than Edge, but just slightly)
| InCityDreams wrote:
| I use Brave on w10. How do you validate one browser being
| 'slightly better' (even 'just') than another? Me? I just
| like brave. The rest can all FO for now. I used to try new/
| different ones irregularly but brave just seems ok-for-me
| for now.
| orf wrote:
| Saying "hey why not try this" as a small easily dismissible
| notification is very, very different from what's shown in the
| tweets.
| goosedragons wrote:
| No, it really isn't. Especially since the options are "Try
| now" and "Later" with no "Never" or some other easy way to
| permanently stop it.
| tgv wrote:
| TBH, I've maybe seen it once.
| ryandrake wrote:
| Silicon Valley has a huge problem with user consent and
| respecting "no" from users. The whole industry feels like
| a guy at a club asking people "Hey, you should date me.
| Allow? [Yes | Ask Again in 5 Minutes]"
| formerly_proven wrote:
| Reminds me of the time when discussing some feature
| changes with an UX designer and I said something along
| the lines of "well, going against users wants/wishes
| can't be good UX" and they basically replied "but of
| course it can :)"
| orf wrote:
| You really can't see a difference between
|
| > "you don't need to download a new browser, we recommend
| Edge"
|
| > "to protect your pc we recommend only running ms
| verified apps, use Edge"
|
| And
|
| > "try safari, it's energy efficient"
|
| If not, look a bit harder.
| kevinventullo wrote:
| Those are different marketing techniques with the same
| goal of increasing browser market share.
| goosedragons wrote:
| No I don't. They're both advertisements. One happens only
| at install. The other when you use a competitors program.
| Both are despicable behaviors from an OS. It's like
| asking whether I prefer dog or cat turds on my carpet.
| They're both turds.
| orf wrote:
| That's reductionist to the point of stupidity. They are
| also both words, so I guess there's no difference between
| them and this comment?
|
| Except words have meaning, and the differences between
| these meanings are important.
|
| One set of words is telling you that you are not safe
| unless you use this browser. It's implying you're making
| a mistake by using Firefox, and in both cases it's saying
| "the people who make your computer are telling you to use
| this thing". Non technical people are easily fooled by
| this. It's scary.
|
| The other one is saying "hey, Safari exists" in the
| corner of your screen.
|
| There's a big difference between these two.
| baal80spam wrote:
| I don't use Apple products but I don't think this is
| outrageous or something. Why shouldn't a company that sold me
| a refrigerator be able to point out that it produces ovens as
| well?
|
| Of course I despise what Microsoft does, it's absolutely over
| the top.
| dvtrn wrote:
| Pointing it out once is potentially helpful.
|
| Continuing to point it out after you've acknowledged it is
| called "nagging".
|
| It's annoying. Really that simple.
| black_puppydog wrote:
| > Why shouldn't a company that sold me a refrigerator be
| able to point out that it produces ovens as well?
|
| Depends on how big that company is in the fridge market.
| Using a monopoly power in one market to dominate another is
| textbook abuse of monopoly power and exactly why MS got
| sued for IE back in the day.
| nicce wrote:
| "Helpful" notification is much less than Microsoft is doing
| indeed. After all, Mac is commercial OS and Safari is their
| product so at least a little bit is allowed. But Microsoft
| is closer and closer banning anything they don't want.
| InCityDreams wrote:
| >Why shouldn't a company that sold me a refrigerator be
| able to point out that it produces ovens as well?
|
| How often would be too much? What if you already bought an
| oven and it was still 'pointing out' that the company
| produces fridges (like you just bought) as well? Every six
| weeks acceptable? I accept that when i go downtown/ to a
| shop my eyeballs count. But inside my home, on my systems?
| No thanks.
| goosedragons wrote:
| Because its annoying and ridiculous? They also do it WHEN
| you open another web browser. Imagine if your Acme fridge
| had a camera that noticed every time you opened your non-
| Acme oven and bleated out "Try the new Acme Oven! You'll
| love its efficiency and design!". Is that okay?
| bene_legionary wrote:
| Compared to Windows, the notifications for trying Safari
| are nothing, and switching browsers aren't so much of a
| hassle. Microsoft actively tries to push you to Edge in
| the settings and a to get a Microsoft Account at start
| up. A couple of times I've been stopped at start up
| because of the "You need to finish updating" screen with
| those prompts, sometimes afterwards I see that my taskbar
| now has the Mail and Edge app pinned automatically. In
| comparison my Macbook throws up an ignorable notification
| in the corner if I open Firefox. For your analogy, your
| Microsoft Fridge is turning off the power supply for your
| house unless you go and turn it back on by yourself or
| buy the Microsoft Oven.
| playpause wrote:
| Maybe they do that once? They definitely don't do it
| every time you open Chrome. That would be ridiculous.
| goosedragons wrote:
| You're right thats its not actually every time but
| neither is this Edge install thing. If you click "Later"
| I think it won't do it for 3 days according to this blog
| post [0] and I think that's still accurate. If you hit
| Try Now I think you get a little more time to whenever
| Apple updates Safari/macOS.
|
| [0] https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/how-to-osx-try-safari-
| promotion....
| jacquesm wrote:
| If people accept it, then it will get normalized, then the
| next level of abuse will come and you'll be happy because
| the water is only going up a degree or two. Frogs are best
| boiled slowly. They'll never notice, the suckers.
| playpause wrote:
| I think this logic should be reserved for the cases where
| it really matters, like the erosion of freedom of speech.
| Potentially permanent changes.
|
| This is just slimy sales tactics. The level of
| 'acceptable to most people' swings back and forth. It's
| not a slippery slope.
| jacquesm wrote:
| It _really_ matters. That it doesn 't matter to you is
| something I'm fine with, but user freedom to use their
| computers as intended is not something that is trivial to
| me.
| playpause wrote:
| It does matter to me, I hate it when slimy sales tactics
| are the norm. I'm saying the boiling frog idea does not
| really apply here. It is essentially a spam issue.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Ah I see, when you look at it that way, yes, the instance
| itself is a bad enough thing. But the problem is that the
| step up from the previous n abuses is small enough that
| some percentage of the users will accept it, hence the
| froggy bits. They just keep doing worse thing, I'm trying
| to imagine the FF from a decade ago doing this and trying
| to get away with it. The users that are still left are
| the die hards, everybody else is already gone, they
| either can't leave or the won't leave (or both) until it
| is too late.
| noisem4ker wrote:
| It's about the erosion of computing freedom. How distant
| is so helpfully nudging you to use a particular, blessed
| program for your security and convenience, to just
| mandating it? See Apple, for example, who has
| successfully normalized the device manufacturer dictating
| what software is allowed to run on the OS, and it's
| conveniently the one from its own store, paid for through
| its own gateway and sometimes whose cloud storage and
| network functionality is controlled by state agencies.
| That's something that really matters.
| kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote:
| > I think this logic should be reserved for the cases
| where it really matters
|
| I disagree, because by then you've lost the ability to
| fight back. If you let the little bad behaviors go, you
| set a precedent that's hard to fight against.
|
| One could argue we're seeing that in realtime with your
| argument that everything is still fine...
| the-dude wrote:
| Do you have any proof for the boiled frog myth? Would
| love to read.
| jacquesm wrote:
| I don't think we need to rehash that bit over and over
| again, it's a well known that the story is apocryphal but
| it serves as a useful metaphor, which I think by calling
| it a myth you are well aware of. Or were you genuinely
| interested in boiling living frogs?
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog
| homerhomer wrote:
| I don't even care at this point. I used to advocate for Firefox
| and Chrome on Windows platform but it just seems silly to try to
| force Microsoft's hand to make their platform neutral to
| competitors. It's like walking into a Ford Dealership wanting
| them to support Toyota Trucks. The better choice is to leave
| Windows. Mac, Chromebook and Linux a all very good options.
| Silhouette wrote:
| _it just seems silly to try to force Microsoft 's hand to make
| their platform neutral to competitors._
|
| Many places have laws, under headlines like "monopolies" or
| "anti-competitive behaviour", that have evolved _precisely_
| because of the danger of allowing a business entity that has
| achieved a dominant position in one market to exploit that
| position to gain an unfair advantage in another market (even if
| the former position was achieved entirely on merit).
|
| Many places have evolved a regulatory environment for services,
| particularly those considered essential, where commercial
| providers of those services are restricted from freely
| performing certain acts that would harm a user of their
| services even if it makes business sense to do that.
|
| We evolved these rules because there is a huge imbalance of
| power in these situations and we learned from experience that
| allowing the big guy to exploit that imbalance to the detriment
| of the little guy is bad for society.
|
| The need to apply similar principles to modern technologies and
| communications services is abundantly clear. The legislators
| and regulators are just a decade or two behind the technology,
| as so often happens. Now we're starting to see the pendulum
| swing back and it will probably go too far the other way, with
| technologically illiterate political appointees seeing
| potential power and/or revenue that can be generated from
| applying heavy-handed control to the big tech firms and doing
| their own kind of damage to the societies they supposedly
| serve. Witness the current wave of laws and regulatory actions
| in basically everywhere in the West that isn't the USA.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| I think a more appropriate analogy is you have a Ford car, and
| you tell the GPS system to navigate you to a Toyota dealership.
| Instead of doing that, it prompts you multiple times if you
| really want to go to a Ford dealership instead.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| It's like walking into a Ford Dealership and them constantly
| recommending BP fuels because they have some deal with them.
|
| But anyway car analogies are pretty skewed.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| Nah. Does Android complain if you switch the default browser
| away from Chrome?
|
| I wouldn't complain about favoring Edge by just having it pre-
| set as the default when you install Windows. That's fine and
| reasonable to me, you want _some_ kind of default browser
| anyway, if nothing else, to install other browsers.
|
| But the OS complaining about it when you switch is stupid.
| Whereas you can argue that having some kind of browser built
| into the OS is a reasonable necessity for user convenience --
| and you could argue this for other app types too, like image
| viewers and video players -- having the OS try to convince
| users to not switch is explicitly anti-competitive.
| gtf21 wrote:
| macOS does something similar -- when I was setting up my parents'
| machines I discovered that if you start using not-Safari it
| starts sending notifications telling you how great the latest
| Safari is, which is very irritating.
| worik wrote:
| > macOS does something similar -- when I was setting up my
| parents' machines I discovered that if you start using not-
| Safari it starts sending notifications telling you how great
| the latest Safari is, which is very irritating.
|
| It grates to defend Apple, but that is not my experience. I
| cannot recall ever running Safari on the Mac I use. I use
| Firefox only. I cannot recall being harassed by he MacOS to
| switch.
|
| FLW
| Synaesthesia wrote:
| If you do a new install of Mac OS there is a one time
| notification which encourages you to try Safari if you set
| Chrome as default or Firefox. I know, I just installed it on
| an old iMac. It's not as obnoxious as the Windows dialog.
| ulimn wrote:
| I've only seen such things after updates. Maybe I just missed
| it - where am I supposed to look for this? (I'm honestly
| curious)
|
| I always browse with Firefox (apart from the occasional Safari
| when I want Apple Pay) and don't use Chrome at all.
| warning26 wrote:
| While both are bad (and should probably be illegal), I would
| argue that Microsoft's are much more insidious, wrapping
| everything in a language of "accept the _default trusted_
| option? "
| gtf21 wrote:
| Agreed that the MS example is more egregious and that both
| should be illegal, but moreover, these tech companies need a
| massive culture shift -- both MS and Apple invest an
| extraordinary amount of effort in reducing user freedom /
| ownership (which is basically why I went back to Linux after
| 15 years on a OSX/macOS).
| travisgriggs wrote:
| Interesting. I don't see these. I brew install brave-browser,
| select it as my preferred and have never been bothered by any
| of these prompts. I'm curious what's different in the
| mechanisms.
|
| The repeated prompt that goes drive me nuts in macOS is the
| encouragement to get some more iCloud backup. Why can't it
| detect I have a time machine backup running on an external SSD
| and leave me alone?
| gurjeet wrote:
| Take note of these anti-competitive practices, @mozilla and
| @firefox. Defend yourself. Your users' and customers' rights are
| being trampled upon. /cc @EFF
|
| https://twitter.com/0xGurjeet/status/1510678289404207106
| tobr wrote:
| Why are you crossposting your own tweet here?
| hgomersall wrote:
| So more people see it?
| sidewndr46 wrote:
| The last time I installed Windows 10 and then downloaded all the
| updates, the default behavior was simply to block the download of
| any .exe files. This includes Firefox & Chrome, so I didn't run
| into this issue at all. I just couldn't download any executable
| files.
|
| After navigating a few mazes of menus I was able to disable all
| this behavior.
| alkonaut wrote:
| The DevDiv (or whatever they are called) people are very visible
| and accessible at Microsoft. "This is our vision for the
| product", "This is why we make this change" etc. Even people who
| implement individual features can let people know in advance.
| Have dialog on Twitter about an upcoming change to a .NET api or
| a VS feature.
|
| I'd like to see Microsoft be open with that sort of thing for
| Windows. I'd like to see the _people_ who make these decisions. I
| 'd like to hear their motivations.
| funstuff007 wrote:
| I guess MS under Satya isn't as OSS friendly as the press have
| led us to believe. hmm...
| dark-star wrote:
| I see these kinds of stories from time to time.
|
| I'm using Windows 11 since a few months, been using Windows 10
| before, and Windows 7 before that.
|
| The prompt in question comes up exactly once, when using Edge to
| download Chrome/Firefox. Then there is only one additional prompt
| when you set your default browser to Chrome/Firefox.
|
| After that, Windows gives up and shuts up. Even if you update it,
| it won't bug you again, ever. At least I have never seen that
| prompt come up a second time since then.
|
| I'm using Windows 11 pro though, it might be that the consumer
| versions (home, educational, whatever they're called) are
| different in that regard
| ht85 wrote:
| I play a couple games that only run on Windows, which I boot a
| few times a month. I'm not even mad. The feeling is more like
| sadness, remembering the XP days.
| Eduard wrote:
| On the other hand, I find Firefox 's behavior annoying as well.
|
| On one of my Firefox installations, when I start it, it always
| asks me to become the default browser. Which I don't want, so I
| set the "don't ask me again" checkbox. Yet it will ask me again.
| The Firefox support forum mentions several workarounds, none of
| them working.
|
| Also, there are additional random /modals every once in a
| startup, asking me to try out new design feature X. I'm never
| interested, I just want to use a web browser.
|
| All in all, I'm more annoyed by Firefox than other browsers.
| matthewmacleod wrote:
| In fairness though, that first behaviour you've described
| sounds like a straight-up bug. I very much doubt that anybody
| at Firefox HQ intends this to be the case.
|
| I get that bugs can be annoying, but "my browser has an
| annoying bug" is a million miles away from "my browser monitors
| when I search for competitor's software and warns me that I
| shouldn't use it".
| y-c-o-m-b wrote:
| Sounds like this is unique to you and your system? I've been
| using Firefox for casual browsing for years and I experience
| none of these issues. As in I don't even know what you're
| referring to honestly because I've never seen such things in
| all these years of having it. Chrome is set as my default
| browser btw.
|
| The only "pop-up" - if you can call it that - I ever get is the
| one telling me a new version of FF is available for download.
| MerelyMortal wrote:
| FWIW: I also have this bug on one of my installations.
| mstipetic wrote:
| You're more annoyed by ff than Edge embedding a buy now pay
| later feature?
| alan-hn wrote:
| Different smells, same fecal matter
| mmastrac wrote:
| Not even in the same ballpark, sorry.
| brynjolf wrote:
| The year is 2022 and everything is now equal. The human
| race has decided to never use nuance again.
|
| Worlds biggest corporations trying to stop you from
| installing a free community built browser is the same as it
| asking you nicely once to become the default
| tssva wrote:
| I use Edge and although I have heard of the feature it has
| never been presented to me. Firefox on the other hand prompts
| me for unwanted Mozilla offerings and puts Disney ads in the
| browser.
| petepete wrote:
| Yeah. I love Firefox but I wish they'd stop trying to make me
| use Pocket or their VPN.
| 0des wrote:
| I've got a theory google owns pocket and just does it to make
| us look stupid for using Firefox with some random trash
| bolted on. Also remember Firefox hello or whatever messenger
| was once bolted on?
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| Or putting "suggested links" on my new tab page, and adding
| news. I really don't care what kim kardashian had for dinner.
|
| Sure, it can be turned off but it seems like every few weeks
| I have to go hunting around to turn some new spammy shit off.
| And even though I sync my settings through firefox sync,
| these adware 'features' don't seem to sync their settings
| when I turn them off.
| uhuhoo wrote:
| Yup. Sometimes it looks like they are trying to intentionally
| sabotage an otherwise great product. The regressions in UX
| are infuriating.
|
| Still, it is the only non-WebKit option out there, so there's
| that. And they at least claim to care abour user's privacy.
| jdeaton wrote:
| On Android if you disable the youtube app then apps like messages
| start complaining with popups if you receive a youtube link "you
| need to enable the youtube app in order for this app to work
| correctly"
| chronogram wrote:
| Not on my Pixel. YouTube links open in the browser.
| jdeaton wrote:
| On my pixel youtube links also open in the browser but still
| there is a popup every time I open a chat in messages that
| contains a youtube link. I literally go and delete the
| youtube links people have sent me to stop it.
| nicbou wrote:
| Not if you use the google search bar on your home screen
| MichaelDickens wrote:
| I've been using Windows for about two years. Just this morning,
| when I booted into Windows, the boot loader (or whatever you call
| the part before Windows is fully loaded) prompted me saying I
| need to finish setting up. The only options were "accept" or
| "remind me in 3 days", so I accepted. Then it asked me to change
| my default browser to Edge. Apparently "finish setting up" means
| "we don't like that you are using Firefox".
| defanor wrote:
| > Apparently "finish setting up" means "we don't like that you
| are using Firefox".
|
| I've noticed the same thing on an Android tablet recently, just
| with Google Play in place of Edge (and F-Droid in place of
| Firefox). That's unpleasant, but unfortunately not that
| surprising: dark patterns and other annoyances are quite
| common, particularly with commercial products.
| slim wrote:
| did it uninstall f-droid ?
| defanor wrote:
| It did not: actually it'd keep asking to "complete setting
| up" without F-Droid installed too, just as long as Google
| Play is not configured.
| zo1 wrote:
| Had Android give me a notification to prompt me to uninstall
| "Vanced Manager" because it is (can't remember exact wording
| they used) dangerous or malicious malware, or could make my
| device unsafe. If I didn't know the details, I'd have
| "trusted" Android(Google) blindly to know what's best for me
| and would have uninstalled immediately.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| I haven't noticed this on my Android but I never even sign in
| to Google Play on them anymore. I just install F-Droid and
| Aurora store (for those apps which aren't FOSS).
|
| I think this stops a lot of Google's skullduggery. Of course
| a google-free ROM is even better for privacy but I think this
| is a nice middle ground.
|
| The good thing is that this way firebase notifications still
| work, but are not linked to my account (similar to using
| MicroG).
|
| But it hasn't complained about F-Droid, not asked me to
| 'continue setting up' or anything. I do this on a OnePlus and
| a Samsung. YMMV of course.
| EvanAnderson wrote:
| It sounds like you got a major Windows 10 update. They're,
| basically, an in-place OS reload.
| gordaco wrote:
| This happened to me last week as well. I assume that this shit
| came with any of the recent updates.
|
| It really infuriated me, especially the usage of the word
| "need" and the fact that the dialog doesn't offer an option
| like "no, and don't bug me with this ever again". Fortunately,
| after hitting the "remind me in 3 days" button, I looked a bit
| and found an option that does make it go away forever.
|
| My Windows is in Spanish, so I don't know the exact name of the
| configuration settings in English, but you can find it in the
| Win+I configuration dialog. Look for "notifications and
| actions" (or something very similar), and there, look for a
| checkbox whose text reads something like "suggest ways to
| finish device configuration to get the most out of Windows". In
| fact there are six checkboxes in that screen and every single
| one looks like an annoyance, so I disabled them all.
| amelius wrote:
| At least you didn't get a "Windows needs to restart and
| update" in the middle of a presentation ...
| Traubenfuchs wrote:
| Windows forces some kind of setup flow with major updates now
| it seems.
| josephcsible wrote:
| That behavior is definitely abhorrent. I wonder, though, if you
| could get the message to go away for good by accepting the
| change and then immediately changing it right back after.
| antisthenes wrote:
| Unacceptable.
|
| How should I tell my employer that I am no longer able to use
| Windows and that I will be unproductive if I am forced to do
| so?
| kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote:
| Well, that depends on your company. Approaches will vary from
| what you typed above, to "I quit."
| jdrc wrote:
| this happens in english windows as well, it s not some local
| version. i just got a new laptop and noticed that MS has become a
| lot more aggressive: i couldn't complete install without logging
| in to some MS account and it kept chasing me with all those
| prompts when installing chrome.
| wly_cdgr wrote:
| Well, it's true....you don't need Firefox...and Edge is better.
| In fact, now that they've switched to Chromium, it's better than
| Chrome
|
| Anyway, Firefox is just a de facto Google subsidiary that's
| allowed to continue to exist to preserve the illusion of
| competition in the browser space, so who cares
| mt_ wrote:
| Why is the first search result Brave Browser?
| DoctorOW wrote:
| My theory was they bought an ad on Bing to counteract this
| messaging. I'm unable to recreate the results in Bing on Edge
| so I can't confirm.
| haunter wrote:
| Well just tried it. Edge > opened Bing > "Firefox" > Click on
| first Firefox hit > Download. And nothing like that happened. No
| pop up or nothing. And I'm using a Windows 10 PC with an MS
| account logged in for Office365 + Gamepass
|
| This is what I don't like about social media sites like HN either
| where only the rage will reach the front page
|
| Edit: screen recording https://streamable.com/wpjv2h
| abnry wrote:
| I think this only occurs on Windows 11. I had a similar
| experience as described in the tweets.
| dagw wrote:
| Had you ever installed Firefox/Chrome on that machine before?
| Based on my unscientific observations, it only happened the
| first time I tried to install a new browser after a clean
| install. After clicking through that popup once, it didn't come
| back when installing/updating any subsequent browsers.
| xg15 wrote:
| > _This is what I don 't like about social media sites like HN
| either where only the rage will reach the front page_
|
| What is your point? That all those popups were photoshopped and
| don't actually exist?
|
| Or what kind of headline about this topic would you like to see
| on HN? "Windows sometimes does not show its nag screens when
| you install Firefox"?
| sudosysgen wrote:
| The things in the article happened to me. There is nothing
| wrong with the article or the response to it. It's not fake,
| since that's what you're suggesting.
| Galanwe wrote:
| Installed chrome on a new Windows 11 2 weeks ago and had the
| same pop-ups than the twit.
| pete_nic wrote:
| Agree, I just downloaded Firefox onto my windows PC this week,
| experienced none of these things, and the process was really
| easy. I am in the US, so that could be an explanation.
| haunter wrote:
| I'm in Hungary, Europe so not even an EU thing
| denton-scratch wrote:
| Hungary is in the EU. You're there, but you didn't know?
| lucb1e wrote:
| (I am not the downvoter; misreading things happens to me
| a lot as well...) I think u/haunter meant that it's,
| thus, not an EU-wide thing, not that Hungary is not EU
| denton-scratch wrote:
| Oh, OK. I did misread it. My bad.
| jauco wrote:
| I got that message recently when I downloaded chrome on a
| windows machine. (Maybe two weeks ago) I'm within the eu
| kyleamazza wrote:
| That's so strange, I've experienced all of these things on
| multiple set ups over the past year+ (based in the US). I
| wonder what the difference is on why some users do/don't get
| this...
| throwaways85989 wrote:
| I expect that pcs of developers are excluded from spam
| harassment to prevent the only group who is capable of
| backlash and user-defense to engage in user-defense. I
| conclude that you work with customer & privat person pcs
| while most of us here do not. Or are just most of the times
| on mac and nux.
| Mordisquitos wrote:
| I must be missing something, because from what I can tell your
| screen recording does not in any way counter the claims being
| made in the tweet. Firstly, you do indeed see the _" There's no
| need to download a new web browser"_ message on Bing. Secondly,
| the recording finishes just before we see the Firefox installer
| which is the point when, unless I'm mistaken, the _" To protect
| your PC we recommend only running Microsoft verified apps"_
| allegedly appears.
| haunter wrote:
| I did install and nothing happend like OP explained but I can
| record that too
| kemotep wrote:
| If you are on the latest version of Windows 10 there is a
| section under Settings > Apps & Features > Installing Apps.
|
| You likely have "Allow Apps from Anywhere" selected whereas
| the person in the posted tweet has the "Warn Me..." option
| enabled.
| e2le wrote:
| Simply because you didn't experience it for yourself does not
| mean it's not real. It's proprietary software, it's not like
| you can easily take a look under the hood.
|
| A few days ago, for the first time in years, I tried installing
| Windows. Booting Windows for the first time was shocking, and I
| didn't realize how bad things had become. I experienced the
| same banner warning trying to dissuade me from installing
| Firefox among many other annoyances (focus stealing, missing
| drivers, Windows update taking far longer than it should,
| adverts, just to name a few).
|
| People give Linux a bad rap, but holy shit, using Windows for
| the first time in years was a truly miserable experience. Not
| once did I feel like it was a tool there to help me, it felt
| hostile.
| FridayoLeary wrote:
| I think windows 10 is a very good system spoilt by a thin
| veneer of hostility masquerading as 'lifestyle' and
| 'recommendations', and liberal dollops of confused attempts
| at updating the UX while trying not to take too many risks.
| cardamomo wrote:
| What do you like about the underlying system, once you peel
| back that veneer?
| yakubin wrote:
| I like:
|
| 1. VirtualAlloc:
|
| 1.1: separation of reserving memory from committing it,
| thus making overcommit unnecessary, when you want to have
| memory arenas and reserve a large contiguous chunk of
| virtual address space, but commit it (so tell the system
| that you actually want this virtual memory mapped to some
| physical memory), when you need it. So you can grow your
| arenas as you need more memory, without worrying that you
| may not have enough virtual space due to fragmentation,
| and without relying on invisible things like lazily
| committing memory on page-faults as long as your program
| doesn't have any bugs which make it touch that memory in
| advance and thus make the bugs go unnoticed silently and
| increase memory use
|
| 1.2: ability to implement a circular buffer[1] with a
| contiguous view instead of head + tail parts; thus making
| it possible to pass your ring buffer to functions which
| expect a normal array, and also avoid branches and
| complexity in code operating on the buffer.
|
| Generally, VirtualAlloc > mmap IMO.
|
| 2. Behaviour in OOM conditions. Linux can become
| completely unresponsive for minutes. Windows is usually
| responsive enough to kill the offending applications.
|
| 3. GUI apps have reasonable baseline for performance of
| GUI. On Windows it's expected that watching
| YouTube/Netflix you won't see screen tearing. On Linux
| screen tearing with VOD in browsers is completely
| unsurprising.
|
| 4. Powershell is nice for a whole variety of reasons.
|
| 5. CreateProcess > fork [2]
|
| 6. MSVC, unlike GCC and Clang, doesn't come with guns for
| your children when you unknowingly dare trigger UB.
|
| [1]: <https://docs.microsoft.com/en-
| us/windows/win32/api/memoryapi...>
|
| [2]: <https://www.microsoft.com/en-
| us/research/uploads/prod/2019/0...>
|
| (Posted from Linux btw.)
| mnw21cam wrote:
| To solve (2), install earlyoom. The problem gets bigger
| the more RAM you have. The OOM killer runs _far_ too late
| in my opinion, and earlyoom just gets it to trigger
| before that point where the system becomes silly.
| Santosh83 wrote:
| I get the banner notification mentioned in OP's post too. It
| happens through bing on MS Edge, but _does not_ happen through
| bing on Firefox.
|
| https://imgur.com/a/SOgqBW0
| bspammer wrote:
| The screen recording they posted also includes that banner...
| FR10 wrote:
| It actually happened to me yesterday while I was installing
| Firefox on an old laptop I have lying around. I think it
| triggered the pop up when I ran the firefox installer or when I
| clicked on download not sure.
| vondur wrote:
| What build of Windows are you running?
| mekoka wrote:
| > Well just tried it. Edge > opened Bing > "Firefox" > Click on
| first Firefox hit > Download. And nothing like that happened.
|
| Perhaps you should give your recording another watch. It
| clearly shows the _" There's no need to download a new web
| browser"_ message box above bing's results.
|
| I originally thought the word "download" in "firefox download"
| could be the contextual trigger for that behavior, regardless
| of browser. But your recording clearly shows that you searched
| only for "firefox", with no other context, and still had bing
| giving you the message, which confirms that they're singling
| out Firefox as a threat. Given the passive suggestion in their
| message that Firefox is slow, insecure, or costly in time or
| money, I'd say the outrage is justified.
| ChoGGi wrote:
| Nobody said Microsoft rolled this out everywhere, could be you
| just didn't get "lucky".
|
| Unless you're saying that person that experienced this is lying
| or misunderstood what happened?
| gkbrk wrote:
| Your recording shows the first issue from the OP (Bing telling
| you that "you don't need to download Firefox").
|
| You haven't experienced the rest of the issues because in your
| recording you haven't actually tried to install and use
| Firefox.
| haunter wrote:
| I did install and nothing happend like OP explained but I can
| record that too
| dariusj18 wrote:
| What edition do you have, Home/Pro?
| paxys wrote:
| Unless you are accusing the author of making up a fake story
| and screenshots, the fact that it isn't rolled out to 100% of
| users doesn't discount their experience.
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| A/B testing strikes again. It should be illegal at this point.
| It renders googling and rtfm useless, frustrates people, wastes
| time, and makes having online conversations about a problem
| difficult. Plus we are not even sure it results in improvements
| in the long run.
| Bajeezus wrote:
| I think calling for banning of A/B testing is a bit of an
| overreaction, don't you?
| MerelyMortal wrote:
| Not OP, but: No.
|
| Your comment feels like gaslighting, considering you
| already know the answer to the question since OP is the one
| who suggested banning it.
| bathtub365 wrote:
| It's also a form of psychological experimentation.
| wombatpm wrote:
| Interesting. If it is indeed experimentation on human
| subjects then then they are in violation of tons of laws
| and regulations around informed consent. Makes me wonder
| what's in the click through agreement
| tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
| The self-imposed rules by universities with IRBs etc.
| often aren't backed by laws.
| jmkni wrote:
| The really stupid part is that the new Edge is actually great.
|
| Letting people figure that out for themselves word spread
| organically would be more effective than trying to shove it down
| everyone's throats.
| Supermancho wrote:
| > The really stupid part is that the new Edge is actually
| great.
|
| Stupid eh? As a developer, I confidently place Edge below
| Firefox in terms of usability and customization for my
| purposes.
| flatiron wrote:
| It's literally chromium. I'm also a developer and have had 0
| regressions on edge. If it works in chrome, in my experience,
| it works in edge.
| eps wrote:
| ...and that's without considering its always-on telemetry.
| FridayoLeary wrote:
| To be fair it's pretty much indistinguishable from Chrome. To
| test this point I'm using it now for almost the first time.
| Aside from a few minor tweaks it really looks like a copy/paste
| of Chrome. Maybe there's stuff under the hood that i'm missing,
| but i really don't care.
| AlexandrB wrote:
| Chrome was great but they still bundled it with Java and other
| installers back in the day to increase adoption. I think you'd
| be surprised how well shoving things down a non-technical
| person's throat works.
| blibble wrote:
| how is it great?
|
| it's a shittier version of Chrome laden with more telemetry,
| ads, coupon bullshit and abusive "pay later" schemes
|
| standard Microsoft
| rejectfinite wrote:
| The vertical tabs are great and are actually native.
|
| Only browser that does 4k Netflix.
|
| Fast and least resource/battery use on Windows.
|
| Ublock origin still works.
|
| Yes, Firefox is my first choice. But Edge is actually good.
| npteljes wrote:
| >Only browser that does 4k Netflix.
|
| Unfortunately that's a business decision, not a testament
| to the greatness of Edge. The different browsers and
| properties of the PC constitute a "security level" in the
| DRM module, and Netflix ties its offerings to the different
| security levels. You could say that with IE, you have the
| least control over your Netflix stream and that's why they
| let you play their content in 4k.
|
| Nevertheless, Edge could be a good browser otherwise. What
| I wanted to point out is only the point about 4k Netflix.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widevine
| dotancohen wrote:
| > The vertical tabs are great and are actually native.
|
| Vertical tabs? I'm off to try it, on my Kubuntu machine.
|
| I don't like Vivaldi's vertical tabs, but I love Tree-Style
| Tabs on Firefox.
| rejectfinite wrote:
| There is no tree style function, its "just" a list.
|
| https://www.howtogeek.com/718693/how-to-use-vertical-
| tabs-in...
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| Has anyone done a rigorous comparison between the on-by-
| default telemetry in Chrome, Edge, and Firefox? Since they
| all have it and all use similar words, I'm curious what the
| differences really are (outside of ideological preference for
| who gets your data).
| freediver wrote:
| Yes.
|
| https://brave.com/popular-browsers-first-run/
|
| They concluded Brave was the "best" with "only" 80 calls
| home.
|
| As a maker of a zero telemetry browser, I can only chuckle
| at that.
|
| https://browser.kagi.com/faq.html#privacy
| sp332 wrote:
| Vertical tabs, reader mode, tracker blocker, better bookmark
| management, read-aloud feature.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| Not to mention defender application guard, which lets you
| with two clicks launch a browser tab in a separate VM for
| isolation.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| It's just chrome with the Google telemetry and services
| replaced by MS ones. Microsoft's sync for example.
|
| To be honest I don't really understand why MS is so hell-bent
| on everyone using it. It's free and they don't even develop
| most of it.
|
| I guess that telemetry is really a goldmine otherwise I don't
| see why they would pushing it so incessantly in Windows.
| lizardactivist wrote:
| I'm happy to use Edge on my Windows machine, because the browser
| works really well.
|
| But... if I ever notice that Microsoft changes my Edge privacy
| settings behind my back then I will ditch it in a second for
| Firefox, and never go back.
|
| And I'm genuinely curious if just me deciding to use Edge is
| enough to make Microsoft happy.
|
| Also, what happens if you try to install Chrome, or Vivaldi, or
| some other browser?
| kibwen wrote:
| I've used Windows nearly my entire life, save for brief
| dalliances with Kubuntu in my teens and Mac as an adult. Even
| though I'm happy to see that Microsoft is giving back more to
| open source than they were twenty years ago, I'm done with
| Windows as of this year. Between the loss of control, the
| advertisements, and the dark patterns, I can't stand using it
| anymore. Just picked up a System76 for my new daily driver and
| it's been a great experience.
|
| Windows is racing to the bottom as fast as it can. It reeks of
| desperation.
| mattl wrote:
| A system76 what? Desktop or laptop?
|
| My experience with their desktops has been pretty great. Their
| laptops however are terrible.
| kibwen wrote:
| Laptop, the Gazelle. My only complaint is that the keyboard
| makes too many sacrifices in order to fit in a full numpad,
| an inclusion that I find unnecessary (laptop keyboard
| designers, a full-sized right shift key is more important
| than full-sized up/down keys, and both are more important
| than a numpad!). Software-wise it's been great; Bluetooth
| works _better_ on this than it did on Windows, and I only had
| to do minor configuration to get the UI to my taste (and it
| was quite easy).
| mattl wrote:
| Yeah the keyboards are terrible. How's the trackpad?
| [deleted]
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