[HN Gopher] CDC warns of a steep decline in teen mental health
___________________________________________________________________
CDC warns of a steep decline in teen mental health
Author : walterbell
Score : 169 points
Date : 2022-04-03 08:11 UTC (14 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.washingtonpost.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.washingtonpost.com)
| WaxedChewbacca wrote:
| Lammy wrote:
| > "When you make schools less toxic for the most vulnerable
| students, all students benefit -- and the converse is also true,"
| Ethier said.
|
| Who is making schools more toxic for the least vulnerable
| students? I need a hit, baby, give me it.
| eganist wrote:
| I'm not sure the pandemic is solely or even largely responsible.
|
| Zoomers are the first generation with nearly unrestricted access
| to social media essentially from birth (access that probably
| should've been restricted early on, but that's water under the
| bridge). Couple that early and frequent exposure with artificial
| echo chambers created by apps to boost engagement, and
| impressionable minds end up soaked in endlessly-amplified
| negative perspectives.
|
| The test case for this was 4chan incubating incel/redpill culture
| and Reddit later amplifying it among late-millennials. Today,
| EDs, ideation of self harm, etc are all mercilessly reflected
| back at people on just about every social media platform rather
| than just the niche ones. The pandemic only made it worse by
| preventing people from spending time with each other in person,
| but kids are glued to their phones anyway.
|
| $1 Bet: millennial parents will probably learn from this with
| their own kids. Or if not, legislators probably will. Late Gen-a
| and the generation that follows will hopefully see a rebound from
| these trends with parenting habits that benefit from these
| learnings.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| Kids have less freedom today than they eve did - my parents
| roamed the city freely, i only walked to school by myself, kids
| today hardly leave the house alone
| a9h74j wrote:
| I can't find a contour plot to reference, but I saw one once
| to this effect:
|
| Every few decades in the US, the roaming range for kids
| decreasing by a factor of three or more IIRC -- over
| generations.
|
| My father as a kid was setting animal traps all over the
| county, and for him a rifle, technologically speaking, was
| his PC.
| spookthesunset wrote:
| > kids are glued to their phones anyway.
|
| In many places this was actively encouraged during the last two
| years. Virtually every other activity was banished.
| Playgrounds, schools, extracurricular activities, pools,
| museums, you name it... closed. In many places you literally
| couldn't go outside without some kind of government issued
| hall-pass.
|
| We absolutely, shamefully fucked over kids the last two years.
| And so many people cheered it on despite kids being the lowest
| risk group out there.
| version_five wrote:
| > I'm not sure the pandemic is solely or even largely
| responsible
|
| I agree that the pandemic is probably not a root cause: I think
| the global reaction to the pandemic could have a related root
| cause (social media, outrage / attention culture, the breakdown
| of normal human discourse, polarization) as the mental health
| problems. Blaming "the pandemic" fails to acknowledge that
| covid was as much or more about our collective reaction as it
| was about the actual virus. It's the "powder keg" thing - the
| conditions were there, and inevitably something would come
| along to set it off.
| quickthrowman wrote:
| > I agree that the pandemic is probably not a root cause: I
| think the global reaction to the pandemic could have a
| related root cause
|
| I keep seeing the argument that the pandemic and the response
| to it are distinctly separate phenomenon. They are not.
|
| The pandemic response is explicitly part and parcel of the
| pandemic, you don't have a pandemic without a response, and
| there's no response without a pandemic.
|
| This is not hard to grasp.
| version_five wrote:
| > This is not hard to grasp
|
| It must be for me, can you rephrase your point please, I
| can't understand what your comment means
| briHass wrote:
| I'd add 'collective overreaction', at least from a fear
| perspective. I know plenty of adults that lost their rational
| minds during the pandemic: believing all the media-driven
| fear porn that never once honestly explained the true risk to
| the < 70 year-old crowd. Older children/teens watched those
| same news programs and also picked up on their parents' fear,
| and they had even less wisdom and ability to think clearly
| than the parents.
| throw93232 wrote:
| Most kids I know, think social media are lame. They use it
| complement for their hobbies and activities. It was pandemic
| that glued them to their phones, not the other way around.
|
| But _must protect meh narrative_!!
| easrng wrote:
| Here, have an anecdote: I always spent a lot of my time
| online (I got Discord at 12 or 13 I think, I never got
| Twitter or any FB/Meta apps, but now I'm on the fediverse
| which is nice) and the pandemic didn't really change much
| other than me not having to leave the house to go to school.
| bee_rider wrote:
| The undergrads I work with don't seem to ever mention
| Facebook, but Discord seems pretty popular. Social media is
| like everything else: There's the "bad" product which has
| been ruined by old people and the "good" product that the hip
| young crowd likes. This treadmill will continue as people
| join networks, settle in to their preferences, and then age.
| [deleted]
| twoxproblematic wrote:
| akira2501 wrote:
| I'm always entertained by the idea that 4chan did something to
| people as opposed to it revealing what was always there. We're
| social animals, we're more defined by our environment than we'd
| like to believe; but similarly, we have the capability to
| generate and manipulate that environment ourselves.
|
| I would suggest that the basic human feedback loop just got
| more tightly coupled and that mass personal communication was
| always going to lead to this.
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| It gave them a positive feedback loop and gave them a safe
| space to become more extreme and weaponize their own
| stupidity.
|
| You can easily see this to a lesser extend by going to any
| sports team subreddit and then going to the subreddit of the
| league that team plays in. The voices will be much more
| uniform and arguments more minor in the team subreddit for
| the most part... and views that are freely expressed and
| thought to be factual in the team subreddit may not be at all
| popular in the league subreddit.
| csallen wrote:
| Kids have been exposed to multiple consecutive years of social
| isolation due to the pandemic. They haven't been going to
| school or seeing their peers in person. That's kind of the
| obvious hypothesis. To just completely write that off, you
| _really_ have to have axe to grind against social media.
|
| As you said, "kids are glued to their phones anyway." That was
| already true before the pandemic. Which, again, suggests to me
| that the extreme factor here is the isolation, not the phones.
|
| Not that social media is good or healthy. But the way it's
| scapegoated reminds me of the way television and video games
| were demonized when I was a child growing up in the 90s. It was
| over the top.
| vkou wrote:
| > They haven't been going to school or seeing their peers in
| person.
|
| I'm not sure there's a single family in the continental
| United States that has spent the entirety of the past two
| years keeping their children locked up in their basement.
|
| Even when school is closed, nobody has been stopping children
| from seeing their peers in person outside of school.
|
| And if our society can't figure out a way to make that a
| priority, then _that_ may be the problem with it, not the
| school closures.
| formerkrogeremp wrote:
| Anecdotally, yes, some children do get abused and
| neglected. Some are still locked up for years.
| Aerroon wrote:
| > _Even when school is closed, nobody has been stopping
| children from seeing their peers in person outside of
| school._
|
| Why do people always treat friction as something that is
| irrelevant?
|
| Shutdowns and kids being unable to hang out when they
| choose to creates a situation where they just lose touch
| with one another. You can't just deliberately flip a switch
| to turn it all back on. Social connections don't work like
| that. Social connections involve a whole series of
| spontaneous events. If those events don't happen, then
| social connections fall away. Adults have a hard time
| making friends, because they have a lot fewer opportunities
| for those spontaneous events that create friendships.
|
| Rolling the dice less often will give you fewer successes.
| Some amount of those successes is required for upkeep of a
| friendship.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| ericd wrote:
| Well that's an extreme overreaction to human nature.
| jimmydorry wrote:
| You may have missed the fact that many countries /
| localities in fact did do lockdowns on and off for the last
| two years that did prevent childrend from seeing their
| peers in person outside of school. Couple that with the
| non-stop fearmongering by the media, and it's not an
| unreasonable assumption to make that many kids were
| probably kept at home and away from their peers, even
| between lockdowns.
| spookthesunset wrote:
| I dunno why this is downvoted. I know several people who
| intentionally isolated their kids for at least a year.
| These kids couldn't even go outside...
|
| Instead of telling people to remain calm, these fucking
| "experts" intentionally scared the living daylights out
| of people. And for many people in my particularly liberal
| region, they took it all to heart and went well above and
| beyond what these "experts" were demanding.
| vkou wrote:
| In the US, those on and off lockdowns[1] lasted for about
| a month per locale, and weren't even enforced during that
| time.
|
| What about the other 23 months?
|
| [1] 'Lockdown' is a completely inappropriate word to
| describe a world where the greatest practical impediment
| to your freedom is that you can't go to the theatre, the
| bar, or to Hawai'i. Or host a wedding.
| ryandrake wrote:
| Everything is exaggerated nowadays. "Unenforced
| suggestions to stay at home" = lockdown. "A minor
| inconvenience" = torture. "Sensible public health policy"
| = tyranny.
|
| No US state implemented anything close to what a
| reasonable, sane person could describe as lockdown.
| Nobody was locked into their homes. Stay at home was
| routinely broken with zero consequences. Business
| closures went unenforced outside of a handful of urban
| areas. Calling it "lockdown" is clown world logic.
| germinalphrase wrote:
| I'm a high school English teacher. What you're saying seems
| mostly right - but, anecdotally of course, the trend has been
| made more severe. Their ability to engage with in-person
| socialization is very obviously impaired, and their pre-
| existing tendency to snack on social media is compulsive for
| a whole bunch of them.
|
| At a much higher level than I've ever seen, kids will choose
| swiping over talking with their friends _who are sitting
| right next to them_.
|
| It's getting better, but - man - it was _bad_ when we first
| returned from distance learning.
| [deleted]
| ccbccccbbcccbb wrote:
| When CDC warns about society as a whole being subjected to total
| and deliberate menticide and discloses all means towards that
| end, it is only then that there will finally arrive some
| substance to discuss.
|
| Otherwise it sounds like researching the swaying of trees without
| ever mentioning the wind.
| barry-cotter wrote:
| > Regardless of any internet-level understanding or resentment,
| the millennial/zoomer understanding of mental health is
| completely destroying people's lives.
|
| > I work and have worked in mental health for my entire adult
| life (late 20s now). I have my own mental health diagnoses. I was
| diagnosed with severe OCD when I was 11. Since then I've gone
| through periods of generalized anxiety, agoraphobia, panic
| disorder, you name it. It has destroyed my life once every three
| or four years without fail. Losing jobs, friendships, my grades
| in college, everything. Just utter ineptitude and catatonic
| inability to take care of myself. I have been blessed with the
| most supportive family anyone could ask for. I do not fail to see
| the differences between myself and those who I now serve. But
| there is an intense illness that is permeating through our
| younger generations that is destroying the possibility of
| recovery for these people suffering through legitimate mental
| health issues.
|
| > I have met and helped and treated numerous individuals now who
| are my peers in age - anything from 18-early 30s. And so many
| have internalized a generational "understanding" of mental
| illness that is toxic and worthless beyond condemnation. Our
| youngest generations' understanding of mental health enables,
| encourages, and at worst glorifies mental illness. I can not
| understate the number of times I've met a young woman who has
| made being mentally ill, and polysexual, and queer, and autistic,
| et cetera, their identity.
|
| https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/a-broken-model-of-broke...
| gilrain wrote:
| Whoa, I was with that until the huge hit of bigotry at the end.
| Being queer or polysex is not at all a mental illness.
| replygirl wrote:
| gilrain wrote:
| > Queer is an identity for diletantes who want to be
| treated like they're gay without being gay
|
| I'll thank you not to insult my partner to my face. The
| rules of this forum prevent me from saying what I think of
| bigots like you.
| replygirl wrote:
| This is a really personal opinion that comes based on a
| decade of life as gay and trans so if emotivism is your
| moral framework you really shouldn't try to tell me
| anything on this
|
| Best to just make statements instead of validating mine
| against your power ranking
| throwanem wrote:
| replygirl wrote:
| throwanem wrote:
| You're adorable, is what you are. Try not to embarrass
| yourself too much before you grow out of it - no one else
| will remember, but maybe you can save yourself a little
| cringe five years or so from now.
| replygirl wrote:
| my woke era was the embarrassing one
| p10_user wrote:
| Not sure what OPs original meaning was, but I think a
| legitimate statement can be made stating that being
| queer/polysex (or any other non "standard" sexual identity)
| comes with a higher probability for mental illness due to
| discrimination.
| coolso wrote:
| Or, at least, perceived discrimination via an ever present
| victim mentality.
| JaimeThompson wrote:
| A major political part in the US at the time I write this
| has had in their national platform the removal of rights
| from such people including, but not limited to, the
| removal of their ability to marry who they want to so it
| is a bit more than "perceived discrimination".
| coolso wrote:
| Yes but gay marriage has been legal for a while, and so
| now we see the invention of new things to be offended
| about, like they/them pronouns, and pretending that we
| don't actually know the definition of a man or a woman or
| that all that makes a man or a woman is which one they'd
| like to "present" as that day.
|
| I do recall one of the arguments against gay marriage
| being that once gay marriage was allowed, they'd move to
| something else. "They literally just want to get married"
| was the common retort to that argument, but lo and
| behold, it is becoming clearer day by day that the "give
| them an inch" slippery slope argument may have applied
| here. (I support gay marriage, FWIW.)
|
| Regardless, everyone has been discriminated against at
| some point in their lives, but evidently, certain groups
| handle it differently than others.
| JaimeThompson wrote:
| Said political party is fighting to get that reversed and
| has begun to make noise that states should be able to ban
| birth control because they think that Griswold v.
| Connecticut was wrongly decided [1]
|
| [1] https://www.freep.com/story/opinion/columnists/nancy-
| kaffer/...
| germinalphrase wrote:
| "I can not understate the number of times I've met a young
| woman who has made being mentally ill, and polysexual, and
| queer, and autistic, et cetera, their identity."
|
| One of these is not like the others.
| alexb_ wrote:
| Can we stop pretending like being fashionably ill is a new
| problem plaguing our youth? This is a phenomenon that has
| happened before in history - Tuberculosis was seen as crazy
| fashionable during the romantic period, and could be part of
| the reason that things like pale skin, thin bodies, and
| fragility are STILL seen as fashionable to this day[1]. Maybe
| we're seeing something similar happen here?
|
| [1] https://blog.sciencemuseum.org.uk/tuberculosis-a-
| fashionable...
| jt2190 wrote:
| The data for the CDC Adolescent Behaviors and Experiences Survey
| (ABES) are here:
|
| https://www.cdc.gov/healthyyouth/data/abes/tables/index.htm
|
| The survey was conducted in the first half of 2021
| dadjoker wrote:
| I'm not sure what you expect when you instill constant fear of
| simply getting sick, take away all of their social structure, and
| isolate them in front of a screen, all for a virus that doesn't
| affect kids barely at all. Per the CDC there is a 0.003% chance
| of someone under age 20 dying from COVID; they have greater risk
| driving to school.
|
| It's no wonder their mental health is so poor, even if the trend
| was starting before the pandemic.
| aedocw wrote:
| The point was to limit the spread of the virus throughout the
| entire population, and an attempt to prevent hospitals from
| being overwhelmed by the infected.
| vinyl7 wrote:
| Whatever helps you rationalize that we basically destroyed
| the younger generation in hopes of saving the old/dying
| generation
| spookthesunset wrote:
| Too bad you'll never really know if any of it worked. Kinda
| would have been nice to stick with proven mitigations we had
| planned out for decades instead of chuck it all out of the
| window in search of a miracle cure. If you read pre-covid
| pandemic planning, virtually everything they suggestion you
| _dont do_ society decided to do. Everything they suggested
| you should do, we ignored.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Sweden's low-restrictions approach exists as an alternative
| case study:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Sweden
| spookthesunset wrote:
| It disgusts me to see this downvoted. There isn't anything
| false about what you said. What we have done to children the
| last two years is absolutely disgusting. The fact so many
| people seem to cheer it on makes it even worse--especially how
| so many of the "pro-education" crowd cheers it on too.
|
| We _fucked_ kids the last two years and it requires some
| serious mental gymnastics to rationalize it away.
| standardUser wrote:
| "all for a virus that doesn't affect kids barely at all"
|
| It's downvoted because the above line is either a willful
| misrepresentation in service of a political gripe or, less
| likely, a genuine ignorance that should not be promoted.
| spookthesunset wrote:
| In what way are kids at risk? We have two years of data to
| show otherwise.
| kurofune wrote:
| Blaming it all on the pandemic is an absolutely hilarious
| misdiagnosis. Everything seems to be on the brink of collapse all
| the time, housing prices are absolutely bonkers in most cities
| and wages are, in the best scenario imaginable, same they were 20
| years ago for your average professional who lives paycheck to
| paycheck. Politicians have no vision, they are just parasitic
| entities that benefit electorally from violent asinine
| confrontation between voters on pointless cultural issues that
| never find any satisfactory or permanent resolution. Mass media
| are fully immersed in a two decades long psychic war against the
| general public that only seems to be accelerating.
|
| There are too many structural weakness in our society to point
| out without having to write a full essay, but this mental health
| decline is the direct result of our failing political and
| economic systems and our apparent impossibility to challenge them
| in any productive way.
| onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
| > Everything seems to be on the brink of collapse all the time,
| housing prices are absolutely bonkers in most cities and wages
| are, in the best scenario imaginable, same they were 20 years
| ago for your average professional who lives paycheck to
| paycheck.
|
| Personal income per Capita went from ~$30k to ~$63k in the last
| 20 years [1]. REAL weekly earnings are at an all time high [2].
|
| Debt service reached an all-time low during the pandemic [3].
| Even for new buyers with house prices at their peak, with
| interest rates where they WERE, mortgage payments were
| historically quite low.
|
| Now that interest rates have gone up, payments are ~20% higher.
| But unsurprisingly, the insatiable demand has also dried up.
|
| [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A792RC0A052NBEA
|
| [2] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q
|
| [3] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/TDSP
|
| I honestly feel sorry for all the people like you who can't see
| how manipulated prices are and realize that it's a good deal.
| The market shouldn't be this manipulated (by our government)
| and confusing. It's screwing over so many people who think
| common sense still applies.
| yobbo wrote:
| You yourself actually linked to the relevant plot "Employed
| full time: Median usual weekly real earnings". If you want to
| make credible arguments, look for _median_ income.
|
| Q3 2001: $338, Q3 2021: $367, so that's an 8% increase,
| claimed to be CPI adjusted.
|
| CPI measures price changes for things such as flip flops,
| snickers bars, and TVs - things you find in Walmarts. What
| people complain about is the price of housing.
| [deleted]
| onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
| The price of housing is irrelevant. It's a debt market. The
| debt service of housing (and property tax and insurance) is
| what matters.
| Aeolun wrote:
| I really don't understand what you are trying to say.
|
| Are you arguing the buying a home is within reach of the
| average man anywhere outside of the middle of nowhere?
| onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
| It WAS within reach everywhere beside the most desirable
| parts of the most desirable cities.
|
| You only need to put 3.5% down. When interest rates were at
| 2.75% and PMI is only .5% for 3 years - the median HH could
| EASILY afford the median house.
|
| At 2.75% - almost 40% of your mortgage payment is principal
| - even in the first year.
|
| This made the true cost of your housing absurdly cheaper
| than rent.
| sjg007 wrote:
| Uh no, not in the Bay Area... or any place that requires
| a jumbo loan.
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| Owning a house is so much better than renting in Portland
| and you need jumbo loans here.
|
| It's only places like the bay and other ultra hcol
| locations where renting is cheaper. I specifically bought
| my house to escape renting in the bay area when my job
| went remote. I do not want to rent anywhere near
| Portland. More than Half the rent price for a third of
| the home prices...
| sjg007 wrote:
| Right but you can't do that with 3.5% down.
| disambiguation wrote:
| > Personal income per Capita went from ~$30k to ~$63k in the
| last 20 years
|
| At an inflation rate of 3%, the value of money decreases by
| half every 25 years.
| notacoward wrote:
| It depends on what you count as part of the pandemic. At its
| core there's just the disease itself and the risk of catching
| it. Then there's the chance of knowing someone who has been
| severely ill from it, and the precautions taken to mitigate
| that risk. A few kids were fine with remote learning; for many
| more it _absolutely sucked_. Then there 's the fact that those
| precautions have precluded many other activities, leaving even
| more time to read all the doom and gloom online. For high-
| school seniors (like my daughter) there's the college-admission
| situation which is an absolute mess right now due to two years
| of pandemic-related issues. Stressed out parents, cabin fever,
| contentious battles with friends and neighbors over vaccines
| and masks ... the list goes on and on.
|
| If you interpret "the pandemic" as just that core, maybe it's a
| misdiagnosis. If you include all of the secondary and tertiary
| effects, the case is much stronger.
| missedthecue wrote:
| Why would the price of a single family home make a 13 year old
| depressed? They've easily got a decade and a half until they
| need to worry about that.
| disambiguation wrote:
| because it makes the future seem hopeless
|
| "if the adults can't figure it out, what chance do i have?"
| manuelabeledo wrote:
| Because the pressure it puts on their parents and the
| consequences of it? I think this one is pretty obvious.
| kurofune wrote:
| Off-topic, but love to see a galician surname. Greetings
| from an asturian neighbour.
| manuelabeledo wrote:
| We are everywhere, brother :)
| Valgrim wrote:
| Because even if it's their parents that pay for the mortgage,
| they are still affected by the consequences of high housing
| prices (longer travel times, less disposable income, lack of
| space, bad neighborhood, lack of social mobility, etc...)
| mescaline wrote:
| 13 year olds don't worry about houses, they worry about
| things shared online by their peers. That's on Silicon
| Valley, folks. Denial of our own hand in this is real.
| kurofune wrote:
| Are you sure you can't imagine why the terrible economic
| situation a family is living in could impact the mental
| health of a 13yo? We love problem solvers in this site.
| missedthecue wrote:
| The economy is not in terrible shape though. And even in
| horrible economies like Venezuela, we don't see a teenage
| depression trend that follows GDP chart. I just don't think
| there is a meaningful correlation.
|
| As a matter of fact, I would hazard a guess that there is
| _more_ teenage depression in America 's wealthiest suburb
| (Loudoun County, VA) than in inner-city Detroit.
| infiniteL0Op wrote:
| cudgy wrote:
| True. The economy is great ... if your wealthy and
| own/trade bubbling assets. The other 80-90% of people are
| not fairing better given the scenario described so aptly
| by an above post. Flat real wages (adjusted for
| inflation) and soaring fundamental expenses like housing,
| medical care, education, and now everything else
| including food and transportation do not bode well for
| most people. Basic math.
| lumb63 wrote:
| It astonishes me to see people defending the idea that the
| pandemic is not a notable component of this. I agree that social
| media, internet porn, competitive school environment, economic
| conditions, etc., are all negative influences on teenage mental
| health. However, to propose that forcing (or, at the least, very
| strongly encouraging) an entire populace into self-isolation
| would not have negative impacts for a group in one of the most
| social and formative times of life, is absurd.
|
| Imagine you spent half the time you were in high school, alone. I
| cannot imagine any rational person is capable of believing this
| to not be a major factor to their mental health.
|
| Anecdotally, I am a reasonably strong introvert, and I switched
| teams at my job during the pandemic after nine months of work
| from home because it did not feel healthy to my mental state to
| not have interacted with anyone in so long. I felt that my social
| abilities had atrophied, and that I had lost sight of a lot of
| the important things in life that derive from social interaction.
| I can only imagine that the impact is far greater to someone who
| can't choose to change their life to obtain the social
| interaction they are missing, and who (I am generalizing a bit
| here) probably requires mental/emotional guidance and support
| from their peers, elders, etc.
| tablespoon wrote:
| > It astonishes me to see people defending the idea that the
| pandemic is not a notable component of this. I agree that
| social media, internet porn, competitive school environment,
| economic conditions, etc., are all negative influences on
| teenage mental health. However, to propose that forcing (or, at
| the least, very strongly encouraging) an entire populace into
| self-isolation would not have negative impacts for a group in
| one of the most social and formative times of life, is absurd.
|
| It shouldn't be so astonishing. People who wanted to take a
| laissez faire approach to COVID (especially pre-vaccine) would
| often _incoherently_ throw literally every idea they could
| think of against all the mitigation measures, including various
| mental health arguments. Of course, that approach didn 't
| change a thing except 1) lead to more polarization, 2) harden
| people against those arguments forever.
|
| COVID was a serious problem, and it's rare that serious
| problems can be addressed without cost.
| mindslight wrote:
| Does it make sense to specifically focus on Covid response
| here? By which I mean, is this not really just the same problem
| of an overbearing system continuing to turn the screws, and now
| the system input contains the additional stressor of Covid?
| Some of the response is seemingly necessary, and ignoring the
| issue is certainly not the answer. But administrators craft
| obtuse top-down policies, announce "Mission Accomplished", and
| don't particularly examine their effectiveness from the
| perspective of those on the receiving end of their blunt tools.
|
| It's the same exact dynamic as how the media scares everyone
| with sensationalized school shootings, and then schools respond
| by making kids go through metal detectors and draconian zero
| tolerance policies and the like (also horrible for kids' mental
| health). We've built this no-win bureaucracy where the primary
| dynamic is avoiding any blame. Because if the blame does come,
| it will itself be merciless and unempathetic, despite how
| reasonable or well-intentioned an administrator's motive was.
| henrikschroder wrote:
| Not just the isolation, there are so many crazy covidian rules
| that some schools have pushed on the kids to uphold the safety
| theatre.
|
| In California, it was absolutely forbidden for anyone to be
| indoors without a mask for more than 15 minutes, but you still
| have to serve school lunch to kids.
|
| Some schools solved this by moving lunch outside. No matter the
| temperature.
|
| Some schools solved this by giving the kids a 14 minute lunch
| break.
|
| No talking, no socializing, no enjoying the meal together in
| peace. This is how you give kids eating disorders.
| legulere wrote:
| It also astonishes me that people put all blame of the
| pandemic's effects on the counter-measures and none on the
| pandemic itself. Having seen the situation in Wuhan or Bergamo,
| fearing about loved ones also puts a lot of stress on kids.
| onos wrote:
| I agree with you: fundamentally a bad thing happened.
| Mitigating the harm may have been possible to some degree but
| perhaps a more significant degree of freedom was simply
| choosing which form the negative consequences would take:
| more deaths or more isolation / economic problems. Since they
| are in different units, I'd say it's subjective how to decide
| what's optimal there.
| ranger_danger wrote:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30895642
| PathOfEclipse wrote:
| People may rationalize these things because the alternative is
| to admit that one may have been wrong and/or caused harm to
| others in the process. People would rather downplay the harms
| caused by the pandemic to avoid guilt.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| Acknowledging the damage done by isolation doesn't mean you
| have to believe it was the wrong choice. In my country _a
| million people_ have died of covid even with the isolations.
|
| Was it "worth it"? I don't fucking know and I don't believe
| anyone else does either. Would it have been better to just
| let it rip and hope for the best? How many more would have
| died that way, and would our mental health be better for it?
| If it was, could we even live with that? If there was a
| button that would cure my depression and kill a stranger, I
| wouldn't push it.
|
| EDIT: ok yeah I get it consensus is we should have pushed the
| button you can stop telling me now.
| laurent92 wrote:
| Would they have died anyway, or did they die _with_ Covid?
| It's the repeated question, together with "Didn't the flu
| cause as many deaths", and even if it was actual death,
| it's a transfer of years of life from the young to the
| elderly.
| lumost wrote:
| Curiously the elderly seem to feel the most robbed. In my
| family, the young locked down while the elderly went
| about as normal.
|
| Discussing this today, the predominant feeling amongst
| the over 70 cohort was that they had at best a few more
| years of health with everyone and didn't want to spend
| that in lockdown.
| incrudible wrote:
| In the beginning, it was widely accepted that the virus
| would spread and ultimately infect most people. Yet, two
| weeks to flatten the curve somehow turned into two years of
| flailing about aimlessly with ineffective measures.
| tablespoon wrote:
| > Yet, two weeks to flatten the curve somehow turned into
| two years of flailing about aimlessly with ineffective
| measures.
|
| 1) Whenever someone mentions "flatten the curve" in that
| way, the implication always seems to be the CDC et. al
| should have had this _novel_ disease figured out from day
| one, but that 's an unreasonable expectation.
|
| 2) A big reason those measures were as not as effective
| as they could have been was that people were actively
| undermining them pretty much from day one.
| tylersmith wrote:
| They didn't need to have it figured it out, just
| recognized that they didn't know what they're doing, were
| unable of being any help, and stayed quiet instead of
| blindly making things up.
| spookthesunset wrote:
| > people were actively undermining them pretty much from
| day one.
|
| As they should. I didn't sign up for two years of this
| nonsense. We didn't know any of it would work but we knew
| it could cause serious harm to society yet we choose to
| it anyway. I'm not some lab-rat who is forced into
| participating in an uncontrolled experiment performed by
| a few cherry picked "experts" and their political
| backers.
|
| Most people are absolutely not at risk of serious covid
| issues. We knew this even in the first month or two of
| this adventure but it was taboo to discuss. You'd
| actively be shamed, mocked and humiliated if you ever
| discussed actual public data showing covid isn't the
| monster the media and self-appointed "experts" made it
| out to be.
|
| It scares the crap out of me how many people willingly
| played along for two years. Do people not question
| anything?
| tablespoon wrote:
| >> people were actively undermining them pretty much from
| day one.
|
| > As they should.
|
| And we can thank _those people_ for giving us one of the
| worse outcomes.
|
| > I didn't sign up for two years of this nonsense.
|
| Hate to break it to you, but that's just not how the
| world works. You don't get to chose if you participate or
| not.
| spookthesunset wrote:
| > And we can thank those people for giving us one of the
| worse outcomes.
|
| It takes a lot of hubris to suggest these mitigations did
| a damn thing. And it takes a lot of mental gymnastics and
| rationalization to completely ignore their very
| significant costs to society. We fucked kids, fucked
| small business owners, fucked hospitals, fucked the poor
| and working class, enriched the wealthy and old while
| stealing from the poor and young.
|
| Life is too short to obey the orders of a handful of
| unelected, cherry-picked "experts". None of them could
| ever say the crap they had us do would work. We still
| can't say any of it worked in a meaningful way.
|
| People flushed two years of their short fucking lives
| down the toilet to participate in an uncontrolled
| experiment... naw... I'll opt out, thanks.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| No they are right, you can't opt out. You can only act.
| And others are free to label your actions selfish, cruel,
| or evil as they judge them.
| dahfizz wrote:
| > Whenever someone mentions "flatten the curve" in that
| way, the implication always seems to be the CDC et. al
| should have had this novel disease figured out from day
| one, but that's an unreasonable expectation.
|
| Then they shouldn't act like they have all the answers if
| they have no idea what is going on. This is exactly what
| all the "conspiracy theorists" expected, and it's exactly
| how it played out.
|
| The CDC has seriously destroyed public faith in the
| government generally by pushing "two weeks to flatten the
| curve" and "100% effective vaccines" when, in reality,
| they did not have a handle on the situation.
| detaro wrote:
| Health authorities pretty much everywhere have been quite
| clear about data and conclusions constantly evolving, but
| people just don't read or process that far. Or only read
| the "CDC recommends XYZ" headline and then complain that
| nobody told them that this isn't 100% valid-forever
| fundamental laws. It's been staggering to see how many
| people will claim "but they never said this might change"
| while you can just go back and look at what actually was
| written at the time and see that it was of course said
| that things can and will be adjusted as the situation
| changes.
| incrudible wrote:
| I am not implying that. The expectation was that there
| would be a pandemic and that, unfortunately, a lot of
| people would die. The idea was to avoid preventable
| deaths stemming from an overwhelmed healthcare system. It
| then somehow turned into full blown moral panic,
| attempting to minimize deaths from _infections_ at almost
| any cost - something that we never did, and still do not
| do, with any other disease.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| > attempting to minimize deaths from infections at almost
| any cost - something that we never did, and still do not
| do, with any other disease.
|
| So first off no, not "at almost any cost." The largest,
| most effective mitigations were never on the table: wind
| down the entire global economy into "safe mode" and focus
| only on life-making activities; send all workers home
| except the _truly_ necessary. Instead we sent home office
| workers while labeling as essential the food, delivery,
| and retail workers we forced to continue to serve them.
|
| Second, "we never did, and still do not do, with any
| other disease" well we fucking should. Every single
| preventable death is a tragedy of cosmic magnitude, and
| much disruption is justified in avoiding even one.
| erdos4d wrote:
| > people were actively undermining them pretty much from
| day one.
|
| This is what actually fucked the US and led to the
| million deaths there. I live in Ecuador and we had a bad
| go in the first few months of the pandemic, with near
| total lockdown and many deaths. Afterwards though, we
| went very hard with masks and reasonable restrictions on
| numbers of people in buildings at once and the
| cases/deaths have been very steady and controlled since
| then. Yes, masks really do work, if everyone actually
| wears them, our numbers have proven this. The biggest
| restriction has been that schools have shut or gone
| remote during the entire pandemic and only recently have
| in-person classes started back up. The US seems to have
| had it much much worse and it seems to be entirely self
| inflicted. I personally don't understand why the US
| didn't just give up after a few months once it was
| obvious that people wouldn't really do what it takes for
| success. It looks like the US has stayed on a path that
| everyone hates, but keeps getting no benefit from.
| spookthesunset wrote:
| > People would rather downplay the harms caused by the
| pandemic to avoid guilt.
|
| The pandemic had nothing to do with keeping kids out of
| school for more than a year. That was all humans doing. The
| virus didn't wake up some morning and tell us to shut down
| down schools.
|
| Lockdowns and government caused virtually all of the lasting
| side-effects from the last two years.
|
| It is my strong opinion that history will not look kindly to
| almost every single thing humanity did the last two years.
| They were humans at their absolute worst... Making knee jerk
| decisions based on fear and panic never end up well...
| Gigachad wrote:
| My state in Australia had a lockdown where for a while it
| was not permitted to go outside for fitness by yourself. I
| can't imagine the physical and mental health damage this
| caused.
| onphonenow wrote:
| What a load of crock. My elderly father, terminal illness,
| was hit by the lockdown days before coming to visit us. He
| DOES NOT CARE about covid. He is dying anyways.
|
| Then they wouldn't let our young son go play with friends or
| play on beach. This is lifetime impact stuff at 2-3.
|
| When I wore an N95 mask I was told over and over it didn't
| help. Hello, it's an airborne disease, why wouldn't my mask
| help?
|
| So we can't wear an N95, we CAN go to crowded grocery stores,
| we CAN'T go outside to the beach (huge volume of onshore
| fresh air and sunshine) and school is remote only (for a 2
| year old this is TERRIBLE).
|
| Worst of all, despite the talk of being "science driven" they
| have not been releasing age banded fatality rates by variant
| and a timely basis so folks can make informed decisions.
|
| That makes me wonder, what IS the fatality rate for 5 year
| olds. Seriously give me a table. Is it lower than just random
| accidents per 100?
| rjh29 wrote:
| I've used that argument and the counter is: depression due to
| lockdown can heal once lockdown is over. People dying because
| hospitals filled up and cases climbed is permanent.
| henrikschroder wrote:
| Suicidal ideation among kids in the US is up 100%, suicide
| attempts are up 50%, actual suicides are up 20%.
|
| Dead kids are also pretty &$?#&%#!" permanent.
|
| And this is the thing that's been missing for the past two
| years: A sensible cost/benefit discussion. Hell, we haven't
| even acknowledged that every single pandemic rule and
| restriction and measure has a cost in human life. Instead,
| we've been getting shitty platitudes about how "kids are
| resilient", or "it's just two weeks", or "your surgery is
| non-essential and therefore postponed".
| tablespoon wrote:
| >> [Column A] People dying because hospitals filled up
| and cases climbed is permanent.
|
| > [Column B] Dead kids are also pretty &$?#&%#!"
| permanent.
|
| > And this is the thing that's been missing for the past
| two years: A sensible cost/benefit discussion.
|
| So, which is higher: Column A or Column B? I haven't
| checked the numbers, but I'd be astounded if there wasn't
| at least and order of magnitude more COVID deaths during
| this pandemic than _total_ number of teen suicides (i.e.
| all of them, not just the increase due to the pandemic).
| incrudible wrote:
| These children will never fully recover their formative
| years. Also, what impact, if any, did the treatment of
| young people have on the ultimate death toll from this
| virus? We will never know, but I am afraid if we could, we
| would not like the answer.
| ravel-bar-foo wrote:
| Closig schools has been the core of the US pandemic
| influenza control strategy since the second Bush
| administration. There were detailed simulations showing
| that shutting schools is the only single intervention
| that can significantly affect R: schools are the best
| place for spreading influenza due to the very small
| spacing between seats in classrooms, the number of
| students who pack into schoolbusses daily, etc. (However,
| the studies were done before masking everyone was a
| possibility.)
| sillysaurusx wrote:
| _Imagine you spent half the time you were in high school,
| alone._
|
| I don't speak for anyone but myself, and I am an extreme
| outlier. But I would have been delighted. Alone, I could spend
| my time how I want, learn what I want, and associate with who I
| wish. There is also a much larger pool of love interests online
| than offline, especially in small town Missouri.
|
| People just feel differently.
| sva_ wrote:
| There was a discussion on here, about how the Covid pandemic
| may have been one of the, or even _the_ biggest transfers of
| wealth from "the poor" to "the rich" in the history of our
| civilization. Somebody remarked, that it has also been the
| biggest transfer of lifetime from the young to the old, as the
| lockdowns were mostly to protect the old. The measures taken
| against the pandemic undoubtedly had a huge impact on young
| people's mental health, but the effects of it will only really
| unfold in the coming years, and are probably not measurable.
| People who deny this must be willfully ignorant.
| radicalbyte wrote:
| If we didn't do the lockdowns then we would have seen a huge
| increase in mortality over all age groups as hospitals where
| overwhelmed.
|
| Also, Long Covid is very much a thing.
|
| I get it though: teenagers are growing up during a once in a
| century pandemic in the middle of an existential climate
| crisis which the old leaders (all 70+ in the US!) are not
| addressing.
| spookthesunset wrote:
| > If we didn't do the lockdowns then we would have seen a
| huge increase in mortality over all age groups as hospitals
| where overwhelmed.
|
| This is just wishful thinking. There is no real way to know
| if lockdowns had any material impact on hospital capacity.
| And besides, we had field hospitals set up in the early
| days... though they were all closed because they didn't get
| used. Hmmmmm....
| jeromegv wrote:
| Canada had field hospitals. And they were used.
|
| Here's an example. Sunnybrook hospital in toronto. One of
| the leading trauma hospital in the country. They also
| brought military to help.
|
| https://beta.ctvnews.ca/local/toronto/2021/4/30/1_5409214
| .ht...
|
| Just one example among many.
| spookthesunset wrote:
| "That happened on Monday when the first patient arrived.
| There are now six patients there and another two are
| expected by the end of Friday."
|
| In a province with 14.7 million people... Society has to
| grind to a halt for a few hundred people... how does that
| make any sense?
| Lammy wrote:
| > as hospitals where overwhelmed.
|
| Nobody seemed to mind very much during all those other
| years:
|
| https://www.google.com/search?q=intitle:hospitals+intitle:o
| v...
|
| https://www.google.com/search?q=intitle:hospitals+intitle:%
| 2...
| sva_ wrote:
| > once in a century pandemic
|
| That's pretty optimistic. I hope you're right.
| dgeiser13 wrote:
| We will have another one within 10 years.
| alsetmusic wrote:
| > [...] but the effects of it will only really unfold in the
| coming years[...]
|
| I believe that we'll see studies for the rest of our lives on
| the effects of the pandemic / lockdown among different age
| groups. Young people will likely be the most affected
| longterm. This will be the new "lead paint" for a generation.
| lumb63 wrote:
| It's certainly a difficult cost/benefit analysis, preserving
| the lives of the elderly, at the expense of quality of life
| for a younger generation, versus the opposite. The effects
| are, as you said, probably not measurable, and so the
| calculus is near-impossible. However, the answer has
| seemingly been to not even try, and to "stop covid" at all
| costs, laying waste to any holistic arguments that perhaps
| prioritizing societal wellbeing was a better route than
| declaring war against a virus.
|
| In my opinion, the vast majority of the world lost its cool
| in the pandemic, and in our panic, we may have made mistakes.
| Or maybe not. The long term results remain to be seen.
| Certainly, however, we as a society did not act with a level
| head and think things through rationally before acting.
| phkahler wrote:
| >> However, the answer has seemingly been to not even try,
| and to "stop covid" at all costs, laying waste to any
| holistic arguments that perhaps prioritizing societal
| wellbeing was a better route than declaring war against a
| virus.
|
| Stop Covid at all costs is what they said, but not what
| they did. HCQ was shot down without investigation even as
| doctors were reporting success. Most things were simply
| shot down as "not an FDA approved treatment for covid19"
| even though there were no such treatments for the first
| year. I had covid so my immunity is better than the
| vaccinated, but I was still supposed to get vaxed because
| it helps a bit more and we needed to do everything
| possible. OK vitamins D was thought to help and has since
| been proven to help, so why are there not ads pushing that?
| It's never been about doing (certainly not trying)
| everything possible. Its always been "do as I say" from the
| government.
| hotpotamus wrote:
| When you try to mix human morbidity and mortality with
| market economics, basically you just piss everyone off. I
| mean, if I want to be crass about it, I could ask you who's
| life you value more - your father or your son, your aunt or
| your niece? And how much money are you willing to pay to
| extend the life of any of these people. We are hesitant to
| ask these questions for good reason.
| CWuestefeld wrote:
| As the song goes, "if you choose not to decide, you still
| have made a choice". The fact that we've steadfastly
| refused to verbalize the implicit choices that have been
| made doesn't change anything about what was actually
| done.
| makomk wrote:
| The NHS in the UK - whose low, low costs certain US
| political activists point to as proof public healthcare
| is not just better but cheaper - literally does this.
| There's a fixed amount they're willing to spend per
| expected year of healthy life saved, adjusted for quality
| of life during that time, and treatments that are
| expected to cost more than that aren't available on the
| NHS. This is surprisingly uncontroversial, possibly
| because the NHS as an institution is basically beyond
| questioning. However, the same reasoning was not applied
| in the UK over Covid; the mainstream consensus was that
| anyone who prioritised the economy over stopping Covid
| was an evil murderer, and every single Covid death that
| happened was caused by our government not stopping it.
| david38 wrote:
| This is the way. Hand waving morality and preciousness of
| life leads to a very few getting all the treatment. (The
| first part)
| hotpotamus wrote:
| Yes, any public healthcare system will obviously make
| these calculations. Private insurers also do this in the
| US however they are more limited in what they can do to
| control costs.
|
| I suspect that because there is one universal system,
| people accept that they're all more or less bound by the
| same rules (I'm aware there is private care in the UK
| too), whereas in the US it can be pretty arbitrary as to
| who gets healthcare; obviously money helps but there are
| multiple single payer systems (lol) that some belong to
| also.
| Gigachad wrote:
| The government already has these answers. There is a
| value assigned to life per year it could be extended. For
| some reason that was thrown out the window for covid.
| hotpotamus wrote:
| Where do they publish the numbers? I'm curious what I'm
| worth.
| 317070 wrote:
| In the UK, this might be a good place to start:
| https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/valuation-of-
| risk...
|
| https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/valuation-of-
| risk...
|
| tl;dr, if memory serves correctly, it's about 60k GBP per
| full health year left. So 2 years at 50% health is 1 full
| health year, with formulas to tell you what 50% health
| means exactly.
|
| I don't know of other countries that make this
| calculation so explicitly.
| phkahler wrote:
| Google for SVM statistical value of human life. If I
| recall correctly.
| moralestapia wrote:
| >that it has also been the biggest transfer of lifetime from
| the young to the old, as the lockdowns were mostly to protect
| the old
|
| Holy crap, never thought about it that way. Add to the
| equation that it was the generation that gave us climate
| abuse, debt and pretty much loaned themselves out of our
| future (I'm in my 30s ...) and I don't think that's fair, at
| all.
| Gigachad wrote:
| Few major effects. Young people mostly work service or part
| time jobs which were completely destroyed. Very few were
| able to work from home. Property values across the planet
| exploded, further benefiting those who already had them.
| Cost of living and inflation exploded without any bump to
| wages on these low end jobs.
|
| If you don't work in tech, are an exec, or own significant
| assets, your life has been ruined by covid restrictions.
| moralestapia wrote:
| Absolutely agree, I am lucky enough to own an apartment,
| have plenty of disposable income, and I was working from
| home already, so COVID was meh for me. But, I am not
| indifferent to my peers, and
|
| >life has been ruined by covid restrictions
|
| this is completely true for a large swath of people, and
| it wasn't fair for them.
| after_care wrote:
| From my perspective in the US the lockdowns were about
| managing hospital capacity. While this might
| disproportionally benefited older folks, hospitals are a
| service anyone could need at any time for a wide range of
| reasons.
| spookthesunset wrote:
| > From my perspective in the US the lockdowns were about
| managing hospital capacity
|
| And yet there is scant evidence hospitals ever were at
| risk. We should have relaxed our approach to all this when
| cities across the country were closing their unused field
| hospitals. Instead of celebrating the fact that covid
| wasn't nearly as lethal as the earliest models predicted,
| governors across the country doubled down on their covid
| restrictions. Two years later, they are finally almost
| gone.
|
| Did any of these restrictions provide enough benefit to
| justify their immense social cost? It will probably take
| much cooler heads to find out. It troubles me that we went
| into this mess with little understanding if the measures
| even worked. In effect, we took millions and millions of
| people and had them partake in a massive uncontrolled
| experiment without anybody's consent.
| kevinventullo wrote:
| _there is scant evidence hospitals ever were at risk_
|
| I know several people who had to delay surgeries and
| other medical procedures because of hospital capacity due
| to COVID.
| treeman79 wrote:
| I had to delay and miss many appointments because
| everything was shutdown due to pandemic. Nearly died from
| it. Many others did die because they stopped getting
| routine care.
| spookthesunset wrote:
| Nope. It was due to hospitals being on edge and delaying
| elective surgery "just in case". COVID didn't cause
| capacity issues at hospitals, humans reaction to covid
| did.
| clysm wrote:
| Do you have a source on that?
|
| I know multiple nurses and doctors who were re-assigned
| to help with COVID patients, or came out of retirement to
| help with staffing shortages.
| Lammy wrote:
| A person in my family had to delay a major procedure too,
| but the excuse was that it "wasn't safe" like they were
| being done a favor :/
| CWuestefeld wrote:
| AFAIK, this happened, but was consistently due to
| proactive closures in expectation of overcrowding that
| nearly ever came to pass. Although a lot of ink was
| spilled on the potential for hospitals being overrun,
| there were vanishingly few cases in which it actually
| happened.
| hh3k0 wrote:
| > And yet there is scant evidence hospitals ever were at
| risk.
|
| What? Omicron absolutely crushed U.S. hospitals -- with
| some having to set up temporary emergency rooms in their
| parking structures. Many U.S. hospitals had to put off
| essential procedures and ran out of practically
| _everything_ (syringes, saline products, blood, etc.)
| during the last wave.
| theli0nheart wrote:
| > _Omicron absolutely crushed U.S. hospitals -- with some
| having to set up temporary emergency rooms in their
| parking structures. Many U.S. hospitals had to put off
| essential procedures and ran out of practically
| _everything_ (syringes, saline products, blood, etc.)
| during the last wave._
|
| I don't recall this happening. Can you provide a source
| for this?
| spookthesunset wrote:
| They can't. You'll just get links to some NYT article
| whose main content suggests "we are preparing for a
| surge" or something of that nature.
|
| I've yet to see any kind of actual study that compares
| hospital capacity during these "surges" vs hospital
| capacity in the "before times". Also I strongly suspect
| future research will show that most of the hospital
| issues were self-inflicted wounds. We tested everybody
| who came into the hospital and invoked crazy high-
| overhead processes for positive results irregardless of
| symptoms.
|
| The entire two years of this I've been waiting for a
| single instance of an overflowing hospital with
| stretchers of people out the door... never seen one yet.
| There has never been a real issue of hospital capacity--
| at least in the US anyway.
| hh3k0 wrote:
| > The entire two years of this I've been waiting for a
| single instance of an overflowing hospital with
| stretchers of people out the door... never seen one yet.
|
| I mean, I don't know about you but I certainly do not
| consider this normal:
| https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2022/01/13/er_slammed-
| getty...
|
| Image caption is: "A nurse walks inside a temporary
| emergency room, built into a parking garage at Providence
| Cedars-Sinai Tarzana Medical Center in Tarzana, Calif.,
| on Jan. 3, 2021. Since Thanksgiving, cases have risen to
| the point where 80% of the hospital is filled with
| patients with COVID-19 and 90% of the ICU is filled with
| COVID-19."
|
| Taken from: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-
| shots/2022/01/13/1072902...
| theli0nheart wrote:
| > _Since Thanksgiving, cases have risen to the point
| where 80% of the hospital is filled with patients with
| COVID-19 and 90% of the ICU is filled with COVID-19. "_
|
| The confounding factor here is that this includes
| patients hospitalized for reasons other than COVID. A
| patient that had a positive test might not be in the
| hospital _because_ of COVID, but good luck to anyone
| trying to tease out that data.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| > The entire two years of this I've been waiting for a
| single instance of an overflowing hospital with
| stretchers of people out the door... never seen one yet.
|
| Your following sentence refers to the U.S., but as for
| this one- this is exactly what's happening in Hong Kong
| right now:
|
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/09/hong-
| kong-co...
| [deleted]
| alsetmusic wrote:
| My father was taken to a hospital for a broken hip in
| December. There were no beds available. He had a
| procedure and was sent home. I have no news article to
| provide, only this anecdotal account. This is something
| that I can't imagine happening prior to 2020 unless a
| natural disaster (hurricane, flood, tornado) had
| occurred.
| Jon_Lowtek wrote:
| >> (January 13th) _" We are being absolutely crushed,"
| says Dr. Gabor Kelen, chair of emergency medicine at the
| Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine in Maryland._
|
| https://knpr.org/npr/2022-01/ers-are-overwhelmed-omicron-
| con...
| theli0nheart wrote:
| Thanks. This supports that there were some hospitals that
| ran out of beds but not that any ran out of supplies.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Story on supply shortages
|
| https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/public-global-
| health/5...
| 30367286 wrote:
| >I don't recall this happening. Can you provide a source
| for this?
|
| https://www.csmonitor.com/layout/set/amphtml/USA/2020/111
| 9/O...
| hh3k0 wrote:
| Here you go:
|
| > Omicron absolutely crushed U.S. hospitals -- with some
| having to set up temporary emergency rooms in their
| parking structures.
|
| ERs are overwhelmed as omicron continues to flood them
| with patients: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-
| shots/2022/01/13/1072902...
|
| Why omicron is crushing hospitals -- even though cases
| are often milder than delta:
| https://www.npr.org/sections/health-
| shots/2022/01/29/1075871...
|
| > Many U.S. hospitals had to put off essential procedures
| and ran out of practically _everything_ (syringes, saline
| products, blood, etc.) during the last wave.
|
| Americans get sicker as omicron stalls everything from
| heart surgeries to cancer care:
| https://www.npr.org/sections/health-
| shots/2022/02/04/1078029...
|
| US hospitals struggle as Omicron Covid surge delays other
| treatments:
| https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/22/us-
| hospitals-o...
| ravel-bar-foo wrote:
| Korea is currently rationing hospital care in the middle
| of an Omicron wave. Covid-related patient care
| (previously unlimited, with a small fraction of patients
| hospitalized for four to six weeks) is now provided on
| NHS for only seven days, after which point the patient
| must pay out-of-pocket and/or find their own hospital
| bed. When this policy was introduced (the limit used to
| be two weeks), there was a minor uproar, with doctors
| accusing the government of killing patients.
| 30367286 wrote:
| > And yet there is scant evidence hospitals ever were at
| risk
|
| Are you suggesting that this story is inaccurate? Your
| claim is baffling in the face of... well, all the stories
| I've been reading the past two years.
|
| https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-nw-
| coronavirus...
| tallytarik wrote:
| > In effect, we took millions and millions of people and
| had them partake in a massive uncontrolled experiment
| without anybody's consent.
|
| But then... doesn't this cover all government decisions
| and legislation?
|
| If presented with this hypothetical situation in advance,
| perhaps we'd have preferred our governments did X, Y and
| Z differently.
|
| But the 'consent' was given when our generation, or our
| parents' or grandparents', voted in the governments which
| passed the laws to allow for this.
|
| With hindsight, I suspect many will not vote for the same
| governments again. But some will. Perhaps even the
| majority will.
|
| In fact, during the pandemic, many governments who
| enacted what you call 'experiments' were re-elected in
| landslides.
|
| In that case, I'd say that many people have given
| consent.
|
| That said, I agree with your suggestion that we should
| try to figure out the cost/benefit of these measures. I
| think that's a critical step over the next few years.
| joaogui1 wrote:
| Wasn't there a reduction in suicides? Not that that's the only
| factor when it comes to mental health, but it's probably
| something to take into account when you talk about the mental
| health toll of the past 2 years
| thr0wawayf00 wrote:
| You're absolutely right, and I've heard firsthand accounts of
| this.
|
| My sister-in-law is a middle school counselor at a large
| midwest US public school system and her stories about kids
| dealing with the pandemic are heartbreaking, the mental health
| support system in some US schools is completely falling apart
| due to the workload.
|
| She's never seen a mental health crisis on this scale in
| schools in her entire career. She remarks that kids really
| weren't able to learn much during the pandemic due to remote
| learning and in many cases are now playing catch-up to get back
| on track. The school system she works for basically didn't hold
| anyone back for a year because they had no real way of knowing
| who progressed as her school district cancelled standardized
| testing.
|
| Anyone who believes that the pandemic wasn't a serious setback
| for many kids developmentally is woefully out of touch with
| reality.
| WalterBright wrote:
| > they had no real way of knowing who progressed as her
| school district cancelled standardized testing.
|
| The schools want to remove all evidence that would contradict
| their claims of doing a great job.
| thr0wawayf00 wrote:
| ...or they lacked the resources and infrastructure to
| accurately assess students as nobody had been prepared to
| move the entire public education system online for an
| extended period of time.
| WalterBright wrote:
| The drive to eliminate all standardized testing has been
| going on for many years.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| These trends have been happening for decades and it tracks quite
| well the gradual breakdown of stable family structures.
| Psychologically for example, kids experience their parent's
| divorce as worse than a parent's death.
| barry-cotter wrote:
| If you compare children of divorce with children who have a
| parent die the children of divorce look worse on basically
| every measure, sure. That doesn't mean divorce is worse for
| children than the death of a parent. Divorce is a choice. The
| king of person who gets divorced is different from the kind who
| doesn't. By way of example Asian-Americanc college graduates
| who get married in their 30s have a divorce rate around ~2%.
| Most people who get divorced remarry. The kind of person who
| marries a divorcee is not the same king of person as those who
| don't.
|
| Correlation isn't causation.
| Cpoll wrote:
| I've read some takes that divorce can be positive for a child.
| The theory was: parents having time away from their child gave
| them a break, and also helped them value their time with the
| child more. There are also theories that living in a divorced
| family is better than living in an unhappily married one.
|
| AFAIR there are studies looking at families with different
| cultural stances on divorce (but good luck controlling for
| other factors there). Also they tend to measure more easily
| measurable outcomes in the child than mental health, such as
| grades, which don't necessarily correlate.
| SalmoShalazar wrote:
| Do you have a source for that claim? It sounds like nonsense.
| My parents divorced when I was 6 or 7 years old, and I'm pretty
| sure it would be unimaginably more traumatic if one of them had
| died instead.
| replygirl wrote:
| Just anecdotally, my parents divorced and one of my parents
| took their own life, the divorce was harder
| h2odragon wrote:
| Surely this can be fixed by lowering the standards, like for
| speech development, right?
| Friday_ wrote:
| sdoering wrote:
| The quality of the discussion is in parts abysmal. Assertions are
| thrown into the world without even mentioning a source.
|
| A substantive discussion is therefore not possible. It is just
| 'opinion porn' imho.
|
| Regardless of whether the pandemic, social media, (real) porn,
| industrial food, excessive demands at school, any combination
| thereof or other anecdotes are used as the cause. Nothing is
| substantiated by linking sources. Or at least naming them.
|
| Whatever is claimed can only be questioned, not refuted, as there
| is no substantive point of attack.
|
| Thus, in the end, everyone feels good because they were able to
| express an opinion. But unfortunately we have learned nothing.
| mlyle wrote:
| You know, opinions are valuable here for hypothesis generation.
|
| No one knows and there is no consensus why this is happening. I
| have a few opinions as a middle-and-high school teacher. But
| talking about this is important to help wrap our heads around
| it.
|
| If a definitive understanding or reason were easy to acquire,
| we'd have done it already. So, the toil continues: for
| researchers, policymakers, laymen... and those of us in the
| trenches trying to do something about it with not enough
| information.
| sdoering wrote:
| There are for quite some time already studies happening so I
| doubt that random people on the internet sharing opinions
| help much in generating valid (or interesting) hypotheses.
| Also how would you validate those?
|
| Just examples:
|
| - https://www.cmaj.ca/content/192/6/E136.short -
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34406494/ -
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34333404/
| mlyle wrote:
| A few observational studies are fairly meaningless-- they
| don't establish causation, etc. Your meta-analysis
| highlights as such.
|
| Discussion, speculation, and reasoning about problems are
| valuable-- even if the process does often lead us astray.
|
| Do you ever talk about things that you are not an expert on
| or that aren't settled? E.g. You made some comments about
| team culture a few days ago-- ignoring the massive body of
| literature about conflict in teams and engaging in
| speculation based upon personal opinion.
|
| I'm a teacher at a school where neither COVID "lockdown"
| nor excessive social media use would be a great explanation
| for poor student mental health, but still there has been a
| significant increase in problems in the past few years.
| Should I just ignore the problem and hope research pins it
| down and solves it? I need to make reasonable guesses and
| act upon them.
| paulcole wrote:
| > It is just 'opinion porn' imho
|
| Leader in the clubhouse for the 2022 Accidental HN Slogan
| Contest.
| juanani wrote:
| ck2 wrote:
| Before 2000 or so, every stupid thing you did as a kid wasn't
| recorded on a phone or online somewhere permanently that you
| could forget it.
|
| Maybe at school but bullying wasn't possible 24/7 online like
| now.
|
| You had no idea what the latest news or political drama was as a
| kid before 2000 because it wasn't in your hand 12+ hours a day.
| No twitter/facebook or whatever they are using now.
|
| Now being a kid is as depressing as being an adult and you are
| wired-in to a world that's overwhelming you. Sure they don't have
| jobs or rents to pay but everything still feels fatalistic to
| them, like they can't escape the world defines them, not the
| other way around.
| tsoukase wrote:
| Solid and deep points. At era around 2000 things-culture
| started to decline. No coincidence global IQ and many qualities
| (eg music, education, human relations) started to decline at
| that time too
| frankohn wrote:
| This situation if the result of the destruction of the social
| network of relations due to the modern lifestyle. To have
| meaningful social relations with our peers is extremely important
| for humans and even more so for teenagers I guess.
|
| First the modern lifestyle mostly destroyed the small communities
| where people know each other and spend a lot of time together.
| People began to stay in their house all the time with no contacts
| with a community.
|
| At this first stage, as the local community was eliminated, the
| remaining pillars of social relations were school, for young
| people, and work for adults. I some case adults were able to
| maintain some degree of additional social life by having some
| friends and inviting them regularly to create the opportunity to
| meet.
|
| Later it come all the smartphones, tablets, computers, social
| networks that captivated all the attention, especially of young
| people so even more so people were pushed to stay more at home
| and meet less people further increasing the social isolation.
|
| The final blow came from the COVID-19 confinement were people
| were forced to stay at home reducing social contacts only to the
| close family members. This situation created an unsustainable
| isolation raising serious mental health problem especially for
| teenagers but also for adult people.
|
| Modern society got it all wrong. We think having more goods and
| entertainment to consume make us happier but this is not how it
| works. Not if the social life and the social network around us is
| poor or non-existent.
|
| Scientific thought that they know all and can say people what to
| do and they give us instruction just to avoid that people dies.
| The problem is that people doesn't just need to stay physically
| alive, we need to be also happy and fulfilled by our life.
|
| We need to radically change modern lifestyle and stop with all
| the bullshit coming from politicians.
| everforward wrote:
| I agree with a lot of this, but I think the effect has more
| complex roots.
|
| I think there's an economic component to this as well. Housing
| prices are rising, meaning a lot of people are pushed out of
| their existing community, or that they perceive their community
| is temporary (until they all get pushed out). It starts to feel
| pointless to build a community of renters when you don't think
| it will exist in 5 years.
|
| A lot of local shops have been overtaken by corporations, who
| exist in the community but aren't really part of it.
| Walmart/Target/Dick's/etc isn't sponsoring the local little
| league, or throwing a potluck, or creating any kind of space or
| events to build a community around.
|
| Religious service attendance is also down, which is another way
| people used to build communities, and I haven't seen a lot of
| secular replacements (not a criticism of anyone, I don't attend
| myself). I think a lot of people replaced religion with
| politics, which has created communities more focused on things
| outside themselves (laws and public opinion) than within
| themselves.
|
| I don't even know that social media is the cause of loss of
| community. It seems to me that social media was the market
| responding to the loss of in-person communities; it was
| responding to an already-established need. It might have
| accelerated the decline, but I think healthy communities could
| have withstood social media. We just didn't have many healthy
| communities left.
| rakejake wrote:
| The problem with community is everyone (or at least most
| people in the sample space) has to buy-in for it to work.
| Sometime in the last 15 years, it slowly started shifting
| online and then beyond a critical threshold, it began to
| snowball. And now you have generations that play together on
| minecraft and roblox. And how exactly do you fight that when
| it is mostly frictionless and requires much less social
| energy? You can't.
|
| Hmm, when we decided religion was bad and decided to phase it
| out of our lives, did we perhaps throw the baby out with the
| bathwater?
| tsol wrote:
| Anecdotally I've seen much less damage among those who are
| deeply religious that I know(Muslims). Social networks are
| strong so they were preserved even among the pandemic. Say what
| you want about the problems that come with religion, but it is
| great at solving a lot of the issues that humans have dealt
| with for thousands of years. Those problems are ones modern
| society has done little to solve
| Aeolun wrote:
| Not sure I agree with everything you say, but having social
| contact is absolutely gratifying.
|
| The lack of community in current times is absolutely a
| negative.
| t0bia_s wrote:
| Yet we still collectively prefer conformity behavior shaped
| by media and politics.
|
| Decentralisation and community is future.
| hammyhavoc wrote:
| Not like the adults are doing much better.
| sebow wrote:
| "We" as adults at least have the mostly-capable ability to
| discern good from bad, whereas a child until the age of 14-18
| (depending on the topic at hand) does not have the sense of
| responsibility, especially about the crucial aspect which is
| his/her own health. Therefore you could expect an adult to be
| able to take care of him/her-self after the ~age of adulthood,
| whereas a children is very rarely expected to do so, because
| most of the times they're not even fully aware of it
| (consciously speaking, not talking about almost instinctive
| reactions).
| manuelabeledo wrote:
| > "We" as adults at least have the mostly-capable ability to
| discern good from bad
|
| Do we?
|
| Suicide rate among adults in all age ranges is way higher
| than in teens and pre-teens.
|
| Anecdotally, there are plenty of day to day examples of
| adults not having their crap together. The historical state
| of the world is one of them.
| bawolff wrote:
| > Therefore you could expect an adult to be able to take care
| of him/her-self after the ~age of adulthood
|
| I used to believe that as a kid... then i became an adult and
| met other adults who do not remotely have their shit
| together.
| CPLX wrote:
| > "We" as adults at least have the mostly-capable ability to
| discern good from bad
|
| You're going to be shocked when you find out what Facebook
| did to the Boomer generation.
| Animats wrote:
| Note the date: "survey of a nationally representative sample of
| 7,700 teens conducted in the first six months of 2021."
| evocatus wrote:
| I've already walked this path of self-isolation. The pandemic,
| quarantine, none of it are new to me. This was my life for years.
|
| I feel for this upcoming generation, in the most real way
| possible.
|
| They are fucked.
| aaomidi wrote:
| Global warming
|
| Economic forecasts being shit
|
| Social media
|
| Realizing the injustice in the world and seeing adults do nothing
| about it
|
| Hyper competitive schooling
|
| Lack of support during the pandemic
|
| Yeah all of this has an impact.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| I think the biggest problem with these things is not that they
| are actually shit, but some section of adults have convinced
| kids that these problems will be the death of everyone. I'm
| thinking of Greta Thunberg crying about not being able to have
| a family or kids of her own because of global warming. That's a
| bit melodramatic, especially for someone coming from Europe.
| prepend wrote:
| > Economic forecasts being shit
|
| Aren't we in the longest economic boon ever? This might be the
| first bear market in over 10 years.
|
| Schools didn't require sats and other exams and were actually
| easier to get into during the pandemic. The past two years were
| like a glorious time for school admission.
| JaimeThompson wrote:
| The distribution of "rewards" from this economic boom has
| been a bit one sided taking all factors into account.
| prepend wrote:
| I don't think so. Low home interest rates have helped first
| time home buyers.
|
| Stocks benefit pensions and 401k.
|
| Low interest rates help for credit card debt, auto loans,
| etc.
|
| Lowest unemployment in the history of the stat helps with
| all job seekers.
|
| Of course it helps billionaires more because they have more
| stocks. But bull economies are pretty good for everyone and
| there's a whole generation pretty much that's never
| experienced a down year of s&p.
| mellavora wrote:
| > Low home interest rates have helped first time home
| buyers.
|
| I hear it is almost impossible to buy a house in the US
| these days, what with private equity firms bidding cash
| for everything.
|
| > Stocks benefit pensions and 401k.
|
| nice if you have them, but it is hard to invest if rent
| is 50% of your take-home (and not because you are living
| large, but because that's all that was available)
| beeboop wrote:
| Food and housing and education and healthcare are all more
| expensive than ever. I work in tech making six figures and
| can't afford a single family home. My employer pays $700 a
| month for my insurance. I spent $1000 a month on groceries.
| thenerdhead wrote:
| Sure the pandemic may have accelerated or been the catalyst, but
| let's be honest here. TV/Internet/Video game addiction is a
| serious thing that nobody is paying attention to. I struggled
| with this personally for the last 25 years of my life and I'm 30.
| I now have two kids and have to ensure I moderate their usage in
| responsible ways as they grow up.
|
| I was a generation before the iPad, but the current teenagers
| struggling have likely had a smart device from as early as 2. My
| smart device was a TV and nintendo. The guidelines the CDC even
| has for responsible device usage is reasonable, but nobody
| follows it. Most people are picking up their devices up to a
| hundred times a day or every 10 minutes. The average screen time
| is close to 3 hours. That's an average by the way...
|
| We need to bring awareness to this problem like Nicholas Carr did
| over a decade ago. We can't let big tech companies convince us
| this isn't a problem with their sponsored studies to control a
| narrative.
| pcarolan wrote:
| I am helping a family member recently diagnosed with ADHD during
| the pandemic. I looked up this google trend and my jaw dropped.
| Clearly the world has yet to come to terms with the social,
| emotional and psychological effects of this pandemic. If anyone
| here knows anything about what's causing the rise in adhd
| specifically, I'd love to hear about it:
| https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&ge...
| elcritch wrote:
| You don't really "get" ADHD as it's generally lifelong.
| Symptoms can wax and wane over time though and can be
| exacerbated. Combine that with diagnosis getting better,
| especially for women and non-hyperactive subtypes.
| pcarolan wrote:
| Right, so why did the trend explode during the pandemic?
| superfrank wrote:
| I don't have an answer or even a guess really, but I want to
| bring up that "autism" shows a strikingly similar trend in
| google searches and searches for "depression" kind of go down
| starting at the same time.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Search terms for ADHD doesn't necessarily mean that ADHD
| prevalence is increasing. ADHD awareness is increasing, which
| can be anecdotally observed everywhere from HN to TikTok.
| Thorentis wrote:
| Social media and pornography are the two biggest enemies of
| teenage mental health, and both of them have been available for
| almost the entire Gen-Z person's life, delivered straight to
| their bedroom via high speed internet, and follows them
| everywhere they go on their smartphones.
| [deleted]
| infiniteL0Op wrote:
| yobbo wrote:
| It's not smartphones or "straight to the bedroom". Online
| communities for teenagers have been around in some form since
| the 80s.
|
| Now everyone is expected to be on social media and it is _the
| main_ community for a teenager, not an escape for nerds. If you
| 're not successful there, you're also an outcast in reality.
| prepend wrote:
| This exposure wasn't mainstream until the early-mid 10s when
| every high schooler got a phone and social media. Before
| then, it was computer and game system based and that changes.
|
| I don't know real screen time data, but the use of phones
| probably added an extra 4-10 hours of screentime per day. And
| the type of activity is very different with notifications and
| pickups being top of mind.
| sdoering wrote:
| Do you have any scientific sources for those claims? Any
| qualitative good studies?
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| This is according to the teens themselves, but people still are
| hesitant to listen...
| kar5pt wrote:
| Porn was around long before 2009 so this doesn't make sense.
| jeltz wrote:
| Social media has been around since the early 2000s, over 20
| years, and easily accessible porn has been around slightly
| longer. So, no, I am not convinced this is it. Smartphones on
| the other hand is a possible culprit.
| treis wrote:
| Social media wasn't ubiquitous and certainly not mobile. What
| was there was an extension of your meat space life. It wasn't
| until the late 00s early 10s that social media blew up and
| took on a life of it's own.
| Aerroon wrote:
| I don't see how you can blame this on porn.
|
| The people who grew up with east to access online porn are now
| in their 30s. In the early 2000s it was harder to escape porn
| online, because you'd see it in ads and people would trick each
| other with (eg the content of downloads were swapped out).
|
| > _Between 2009 and 2019, the percentage of teens who reported
| having "persistent feelings of sadness or hopelessness" rose
| from 26 percent to 37 percent._
|
| The starting figure from 2009 would consider teens who grew up
| with easy access to porn. But it fell from there.
| trinovantes wrote:
| It makes me feel pretty lucky to be born in the last generation
| where those aren't part of my life till I'm almost out of my
| teenage years. I didn't even get a smartphone until I started
| university and that was considered early adopter for my group
| of friends.
| sylens wrote:
| I wish tech had frozen at like the 2005-2006 era; good enough
| for wireless routers in homes and some Web 2.0 capabilities
| but before everything was aggressively targeted towards an
| always connected phone in your pocket at all times
| loceng wrote:
| Add very unhealthy inflammatory diets/low quality food
| (processed etc), pharmaceuticals, and multi-generational dis-
| ease progression to that list; your parents' health, society's
| health as a whole and how they interact with you, much more
| greatly affects a culture than is talked about - most of
| society has lost the ancient traditions and understanding of
| health, and the body-mind-spirit.
| dijonman2 wrote:
| Where did pornography come from?
|
| I'd argue social media is far more damaging, especially Twitter
| and the advent of outrage culture. It breeds hatred and
| intolerance, two thought patterns that will send us back 30
| years.
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| Both social media (in some form) and porn has been around for
| far longer than this has been a problem. I'm a card carrying
| "Starcraft and DeusEx defined my teenage years"-millennial, and
| these things have been around most of my formative years as
| well. I think I was like ten when a friend showed me you could
| type "boobs" into altavista and get whitehouse.com, which back
| then was a porn site alluding to Clinton's affair with Monica
| Lewinsky.
|
| I think the big difference now is smartphones, and being always
| online. It's much easier to have your entire world view
| informed by the Internet now than it was twenty years ago. It's
| a stark contrast. If you look on twitter and reddit, everything
| is always burning, the sky is falling every day for a hundred
| different reasons, the bees are dying, the Russians are about
| to trigger a nuclear apocalypse, there's indignant outrage and
| injustice everywhere.
|
| If you look out the window, there's literally none of that
| going on. Like it's almost all speculation, or happening
| somewhere else. Twenty years ago, a lot of bad things were
| happening as well, but they weren't up in your face in nearly
| the same way. For some things, you had the dotcom bubble, 9/11,
| the invasion of Iraq. While they made a prominent impact on the
| news, the news was only on while you watched them. They didn't
| follow you around everywhere you went like they do today.
| riedel wrote:
| The problem is IMHO not that things change, but that parents
| and teachers have difficulty adapting to that change and
| prepare their offspring for life. We are trying to establish
| a protected physical world that does not really teach you
| much about that "other" life and helps kids to develop
| resilience.
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| Maybe. I do think this parallel reality you get from
| primarily interacting with the world through social media
| is deeply problematic. It may not be a learning-to-relate
| issue as much as needing-to-change-the-medium issue.
|
| Social media is probably the 2000s' tobacco industry. The
| are likewise big vested interests pushing back against any
| report that it's harmful.
| riedel wrote:
| I guess the point about the tabacco industry is really
| resonating with me in the sense that the possibility to
| generate life long revenue by advertising to minors
| really is a problem. In the end it is about getting
| children to use drugs.
| CPLX wrote:
| Arguable. I'm in my mid 40s and the internet as we know it
| didn't really exist at all until I was a college graduate.
|
| The speed with which things have changed is staggering on a
| cultural and generational timescale.
| [deleted]
| wedn3sday wrote:
| I strongly agree with you. Social media, if it was used
| through a computer, isnt the problem, its instant access to
| everything all the time via smartphones. I feel like Bo
| Burnams "Inside" struck a chord with me and has been living
| in the back of my head for a year and a half now as I slowly
| digest it.
|
| See a man beheaded, Get offended, see a shrink, Show us
| pictures of your children, Tell us every thought you think,
| Start a rumor, buy a broom, Or send a death threat to a
| boomer, Or DM a girl and groom her, Do a Zoom or find a
| tumor, Here's a healthy breakfast option, You should kill
| your mom, Here's why women never fuck you, Here's how you can
| build a bomb, Which Power Ranger are you? Take this quirky
| quiz, Obama sent the immigrants to vaccinate your kids,
|
| Could I interest you in everything? All of the time? A little
| bit of everything, All of the time, Apathy's a tragedy, And
| boredom is a crime, Anything and everything, All of the time
| sylens wrote:
| That song is a masterpiece
| rossdavidh wrote:
| 1) how am I missing the link to the actual CDC study? or did WaPo
| not even post the link to the survey results they were
| discussing?
|
| 2) disappointing not to see any comparison to other advanced
| economies. Is this happening everywhere with high internet usage?
| Did the severity correlate at all to how severe the pandemic was
| or what the responses were? Does it correlate to income levels or
| political polarization or religiosity or any of the other things
| that vary (at least somewhat) between different advanced
| economies? Maybe the CDC study looked at this, but if so WaPo
| said nothing about it. Hard to know what to do with this
| information with nothing but a WaPo text wall talking about it.
| rossdavidh wrote:
| Found the CDC link, at least:
| https://www.cdc.gov/healthyyouth/mental-health/index.htm
| tzs wrote:
| That seems to just cover 2009-2019. The article is talking
| about a study from a survey conducted in the first half of
| 2021.
| indymike wrote:
| This coincides with about seven months of going back to school.
|
| My kids did so much better when they were not in school. They got
| plenty of time with other kids, but none of the toxic middle
| school culture.
| sammalloy wrote:
| > Although young people were spared the brunt of the virus --
| falling ill and dying at much lower rates than older people --
| they might still pay a steep price for the pandemic, having come
| of age while weathering isolation, uncertainty, economic turmoil
| and, for many, grief.
|
| The honest truth that most people don't want to face is that
| there is a direct relationship between economic turmoil and
| mental health. Instead, we will get politicians and community
| leaders blaming everything else for the problem, when all you
| have to do to address it is to pay people a living wage and
| provide an adequate social net to fall back upon. Our leaders
| will never admit this.
| notacoward wrote:
| If you really want to see how bad it has gotten, try finding a
| therapist for a teen. Even in communities where supply is high
| and demand is (relatively) low, they're all absolutely
| overwhelmed. When I went looking, ~75% of them were explicitly
| not taking new clients. Working through the rest, through
| multiple directories and services, I was denied or simply ghosted
| ~20 times before I finally found someone. Naturally it was the
| newest, youngest member of a large practice. She has been great,
| but the struggle to find her was a real eye opener.
| xwdv wrote:
| Another factor may be that many people that teens look up to
| today talk openly about mental health problems, to the point that
| now it seems almost trendy to struggle with mental health.
| Perhaps this encourages teens to let their mental health
| deteriorate for attention, which is the social currency of
| today's society. Remember they are not entirely rational beings.
| standardUser wrote:
| Or if we want to be less mind-blowingly cynical about it, we
| could simply assume that the increased openness to discussing
| mental health is itself helping previously unnoticed mental
| health issues to come to light.
| johnold wrote:
| As a high school teacher(14-18 year olds) who actually spends a
| lot of time trying to interact with students and get to know
| them, I keep hearing this kind of statement:
|
| There is no room for mistakes.
|
| Students cannot miss a homework assignment, fail an exam, not
| achieve an A, make any kind of faux pax on social media, etc...
|
| And then you combine this with many adults in their lives telling
| them, I got into UCLA, why can't you? Just work harder, or just
| not caring about their mental health.
|
| They see this never ending cycle of
|
| turn the assignments in and then go to sports practice(where
| again the competition is at such a high level) and also, get a
| job, because they want or need money.
|
| Many are going to bed after midnight every night.
|
| Something has to give.
|
| This is really disturbing to me.
|
| How are they doing living up to this? Many are living up to it
| but the cost is substantial, and the others that have no hope of
| being this are giving up.
| holoduke wrote:
| I am glad this is not the case in Europe (with the exception of
| the UK). Here we do not only look to performance and pride and
| you need to win everything. Individual development is very
| important. Hope it will remain like that.
| [deleted]
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > Individual development is very important.
|
| Not sure if you've misread the thread - the whole problem is
| too much importance on individual development and the
| pressure this brings.
| toxik wrote:
| This is a funny reply because "individual development"
| isn't something you schedule in European eyes. You just
| hang around with friends and learn to be a good person, and
| specifically not a tight wound asshole.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| Nobody does anything like learn an instrument or play a
| sport in Europe? That's what we're talking about.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| They do, but the point is that you don't have to be
| better than everybody else at it to get into university.
| You just do it for yourself.
|
| I'm not the in US, so my knowledge of the educational
| system comes only from what I read, but it's my
| understanding that "extracurriculars" are an important
| part of college admissions, which is different from
| Europe.
| blahyawnblah wrote:
| > I'm not the in US, so my knowledge of the educational
| system comes only from what I read, but it's my
| understanding that "extracurriculars" are an important
| part of college admissions, which is different from
| Europe.
|
| That's really only a thing for the private universities
| and those don't make up a large percentage
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > the point is that you don't have to be better than
| everybody else
|
| The person I was replying to was saying how they're 'very
| important' in Europe though.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| I think it's a question of "important for what" and how
| society goes about teaching kids those things. As in:
|
| In Europe, it's important that kids learn self-
| development, so we let them do it. And they do it by
| hanging out with friends, learning an instrument, etc.
| They're not pushed to do those things because colleges
| don't take these into account for admissions.
|
| In the US, it's important that kids learn self-
| development, so we have them learn an instrument, or
| participate in sports. They are pushed to do those things
| because colleges take those into account for admissions.
| nynx wrote:
| I'm a senior in university now, but it did really feel like
| this when I was in high-school. And it still feels like this in
| university, though I'm now much more capable of reasoning of
| whether it's true or if I just feel that it's true.
|
| I think this is a consistent theme throughout the entirety of
| the United States. There's so little leeway. Fail a class ->
| you might have to go into an extra 20k of debt. Lose your job
| -> Homeless, foodless, insuranceless.
|
| Something will eventually give.
| ZhangSWEFAANG wrote:
| There are homeless shelters and food stamps.
| JaimeThompson wrote:
| You haven't every been poor in the US have you? If you had
| then you would know that those services aren't the best and
| border on the useless.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| you know those two are mostly incompatible? snap won't get
| you ready to eat food and homeless shelters won't give you
| access to a kitchen.
|
| just as like, a small minor indicator of how poorly you
| understand these systems and how cruel suggesting this is
| in that context.
| Animats wrote:
| Flunking out today doesn't mean being drafted into the Army.
| That may come back, especially in Europe. It's shaping up to
| be a long war.
| thr0wawayf00 wrote:
| Flunking out wouldn't mean getting drafted into the army in
| the US anyway, the waiting list to join has been setting
| records for a few years now[0]
|
| https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-army-waiting-list-
| record-...
| Animats wrote:
| (2010)
| Lammy wrote:
| It's even worse if you look at what types of recruits
| they target
| https://newrepublic.com/article/156131/military-views-
| poor-k... (https://archive.ph/9lYDQ) (2020)
|
| > This week, Anthony Clark, an Air Force veteran and
| Democratic congressional candidate in Illinois, noted how
| deeply embedded this trend is in American military
| service, detailing how he, his brother, father, and
| grandfather were all drafted or enlisted because "poverty
| is the draft."
| after_care wrote:
| Flunking out of college did mean getting drafted during
| the Vietnam and Korea wars.
| thr0wawayf00 wrote:
| ...which were 50+ years ago. Much of the world was very
| different back then.
| oneoff786 wrote:
| I don't see any evidence it's shaping up to be a long war.
| Russia has effectively abandoned their western front.
| They're focusing on the east and somewhat the south.
|
| The Russian army's performance has been pathetic and
| wouldn't last long at all vs. nato. Nukes are a thing, but
| not a long war thing.
| supercanuck wrote:
| This isn't true. There is evidence they are regrouping
| and the approval rating of Putin in Russia is increasing.
| JaimeThompson wrote:
| >the approval rating of Putin in Russia is increasing
|
| If you lived in Russia would you give an honest answer to
| those running the polls not knowing if they would report
| you to the government?
| oneoff786 wrote:
| There is no evidence they are regrouping. There is strong
| evidence of vehicles being trained back out of Ukraine
| via Belorussian rail. To attack kyiv again would be
| starting from scratch.
|
| Putin's approval rating is irrelevant.
|
| Russia has managed to lose the battle of kyiv, and among
| other blundering failures, has repeatedly failed to
| establish air superiority. The extent to which they would
| be utterly slaughtered given actual western air support
| is hard to exaggerate.
|
| At least to the extent of arbitrary Europeans needing to
| worry about a draft.
| jseliger wrote:
| _Many are going to bed after midnight every night._
|
| Tell them to look at their Screen Time or Digital Life
| applications: https://jakeseliger.com/2020/05/26/why-
| technology-will-never... and ask about their weekly time usage.
| It's often over four hours a day. I commonly see six and seven
| hours a day.
|
| That observation doesn't obviate some of the other points--
| there seems to be an "excellent sheep" problem:
| https://jakeseliger.com/2015/11/30/briefly-noted-excellent-s...
| most people who claim to be busy, but show many hours a day on
| their phones, will privately admit that perhaps there's
| something else going on than purely being "busy."
| hettygreen wrote:
| It's like you're completely ignoring the fact that phones and
| apps are designed to be addictive.
|
| Growing up in a world where tech companies have been given
| free reign to psychologically manipulate users to increase
| screen time is yet another pressure facing that generation,
| it shouldn't be thrown in their face.
| [deleted]
| laurent92 wrote:
| > admit that perhaps there's something else going on than
| purely being "busy."
|
| - Snapchat is essential to some youth friendships nowadays,
| unfortunately,
|
| - People dwell in dopamine hits, notably because their social
| life is broken. It's a self-reinforcing problem, true, but
| initially their social life was broken. You don't get into
| drugs when all is good, or at least you can resist.
| ben_w wrote:
| Second link is broken.
|
| School pupils having even 8 hours a day of screen time would
| not even remotely surprising during the pandemic -- what else
| are they going to be doing? My (UK) school day routine was
| get up at 07:30, breakfast, leave the house at about 08:00
| either for the bus or just (once I realised I could do the
| 3-ish mile walk fast enough) go direct on foot, 09:00-15:30
| was the actual school day.
|
| Initially I got home by 16:15, then watched a lot of TV;
| later, the school got an ISDN line and I stayed until 16:30
| -- memories of downloading and printing pictures from an
| artist called The Werewolf and getting home at 17:30 -- but
| again followed by TV. Possibly video games on a Commodore 64,
| followed by a BBC model B, followed by a Performa 5200.
|
| Actual homework? Bus, lunchtime, whenever; I had no interest
| in the tasks we had to do.
|
| Of course, now I'm a "responsible adult" or something. Screen
| Time is reporting 6h 28m average per day over the last week,
| yet despite that, this is what I get done in a typical week:
|
| * Normal office job
|
| * 49 Duolingo lessons covering German, Esperanto, Greek,
| Dutch, Spanish, and Arabic
|
| * 7-14k XP on Clozemaster (for learning German)
|
| * Daily practice in at least one other German language app
|
| * A complete audiobook
|
| * A bunch of educational, technical, or popsci podcasts,
| YouTube vids, WWDC, etc.
|
| * 7 quizzes from Brilliant.org
|
| * I cook almost all the meals in our household
| notacoward wrote:
| > adults in their lives telling them, I got into UCLA, why
| can't you
|
| Not just adults. This is a difference even compared to students
| who graduated in 2019, which would include siblings and other
| near-peers. We're in the middle of the college selection
| process for the HS class of 2022 right now. Many colleges are
| getting record numbers of applications, because of all the
| deferrals and transfers from the last two years. That
| intensifies the competition for this year's kids, leading to a
| lot of waitlisting and outright denials even from schools that
| would have been fairly safe bets any other year. Just about
| every kid has had to lower their sights an extra notch, and
| some who didn't apply to enough safeties are facing unexpected
| gap years.
|
| > Many are going to bed after midnight every night.
|
| Some aren't? Between extracurriculars and homework loads for
| the more advanced classes, any kid who hopes to get into a
| first- or even second-tier college doesn't have much time to
| socialize or play games etc. any earlier.
| ceeplusplus wrote:
| Don't forget affirmative action (sorry, reverse racism). If
| you are Asian (or for some schools, male), the standards are
| substantially higher than if you are black or Latino.
| Animats wrote:
| That's the super high achieving group. I saw that some decades
| back when I kept a horse at the barn on the Stanford campus and
| met some of the local teens. These were kids with very high
| powered parents, and were pressured to keep up. These teens
| knew the ones who committed suicide at Gunn and Paly high
| schools.[1]
|
| Notes from then:
|
| - Saw a group of high-schoolers discussing grades. Asked
| "What's considered a good grade point average today?" Reply, in
| a bleak voice, "4.5".
|
| - Teen shows up at the barn with her arm in a sling. Asked
| "What happened, did you get dumped?" (Meaning, off a horse.)
| "No, I fell off the cheerleader pyramid. And now I'm letting
| the swim team down."
|
| - One of the less bright ones, worried that she can't keep up,
| saying how hard it was. "Less bright" here means "can't get
| into Stanford/Harvard, will do fine at a lower tier college.
|
| This is real, but it's not the typical teen experience.
|
| [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/12/the-
| sil...
| nvarsj wrote:
| It's because, fundamentally, the middle class is shrinking. The
| barrier for staying in the middle class is getting higher and
| higher every day. And this is happening before our eyes at a
| rapid pace over the last 10-20 years.
|
| Who knows what will happen. I think the mass control of people
| has basically been perfected, so revolution feels really
| unlikely. Instead we'll see a police state and quality of life
| continues to go down for the plebs. Throw global warming on top
| of that and I think 50 years from now is going to be a pretty
| dire time. Better get that job at Evil Corp.
| prepend wrote:
| > Students cannot miss a homework assignment, fail an exam, not
| achieve an A, make any kind of faux pax on social media, etc...
|
| As someone close to a high school student, I'm actually
| surprised how much "make up" is allowed. All missed assignments
| can be done any time during a semester for no penalty. Two
| exams can be retaken for a max grade of 80.
|
| When I was in high school there were no retakes at all.
| HollywoodZero wrote:
| +1. My oldest is in high school now and even in her honors
| classes there's the ability to turn on some things late and
| even some re-takes are allowed.
|
| I don't know where these ZERO mistakes-type of mentality is
| coming from.
| prepend wrote:
| These are honors and ap classes. There's also unlimited
| turins for higher grades. Each class is 20-50% assignments
| so if you just turn in your homework you're kind of
| guaranteed a B.
|
| I think this is because of hyper competitive college prep
| where everyone wants to get straight As.
| alphakilo wrote:
| not my experience... is this a board/school policy or a
| specific teacher?
|
| never seen teaches let exams be retaken
| after_care wrote:
| I think it's more common than you would expect. It's a
| configurable option in many online learning solutions
| (Canvas, BlackBoard). InQuisitive allows you to keep
| answering questions until you reach 100% grade, and often
| represent 10%-30% of a course's entire grade.
| prepend wrote:
| It seems the district or at least the school because it's
| every class and was similar in middle school.
| karmanyaahm wrote:
| Most of my school's core subjects allow retakes for a
| limited grade (not in AP classes though). Just one data
| point fwiw
| armchairhacker wrote:
| Back in the day, getting a C was fine but getting an A was
| really hard, most students got Bs or Cs.
|
| Now, getting an A isn't so hard but a C is seen as a
| terrible, because most students are getting As.
|
| Lots of schools have policies like yours but they're not
| removing the pressure, they're just shifting what's
| "acceptable". Sometimes they actually make it worse because
| now near-perfect scores are the norm, and if you mess up
| there's no way to do extra somewhere else to bring you back
| to average.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| There were none of these when I was in high school only a few
| years ago, and they still aren't a thing from the high
| schoolers I know.
|
| The system is still the same - every day you miss the
| assignment is one fewer grade, except for some, where you
| automatically get zero. You cannot retake an exam without
| cause.
|
| It's just selection bias.
| ryandrake wrote:
| I mean, all these things are true. The middle class is
| disappearing, and society is quickly bifurcating into a few
| haves and the rest have-nots. When I was a kid, you could get
| B's or C's and have a good job after high school. Now you're
| competing with the smartest of the ~50M other kids your age
| globally for one of the few tickets out of poverty. And you can
| bet if you miss that one homework assignment or get that one B,
| you're way behind the kids who are doing everything to 100%
| perfection. I can understand how it is a pressure cooker of
| stress!
| lordloki wrote:
| globalization doing it's thing, equalizing to the mean.
| refurb wrote:
| "Idle hands are the devil's workshop"
|
| I couldn't think of a worse situation than being isolated from
| classmates and friends, cooped up at home, having extra time on
| my hands and unlimited access to social media.
| wccrawford wrote:
| And parents that think it's someone else's job to raise their
| kids.
| lookalike74 wrote:
| The influence of this cannot be overstated. George Carlin
| said it best... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u-ryuJDTpEc
| vkou wrote:
| It's always been someone else's job, it's just that 'someone
| else' used to be called 'grandma'.
|
| In the nuclear family of 2022, grandma no longer lives with
| you - or within half a mile of you - so she's no longer an
| option.
|
| We've built our society such that it's impossible to go
| anywhere without a car, and then we wonder why children don't
| get enough socialization, or why the only caretakers they
| have access to are their direct parents, and their teachers.
| refurb wrote:
| We haven't really built that society, that was just the
| trade off people made.
|
| I have several friends who made the trade off the other
| way. They live with extended family, kids can wonder around
| and explore the neighborhood on their own.
| spookthesunset wrote:
| It takes more than somebody's parents to raise a kid. It
| takes a community to raise a kid.
| drno123 wrote:
| CDC isolates teens for two years, CDC keeps them in fear for two
| years, and CDC is now surprised.
| ImaCake wrote:
| A lot of people would, and did, isolate even without being told
| too until they were vaccinated. They would have done so out of
| fear. All that governments really did by mandating lockdowns
| was enforce it on the part of the population that wouldn't do
| it with the hope that it would stop the spread of COVID. In
| some countries it worked, in others it didn't.
|
| All this is to say there is no causal relationship between the
| government lockdowns (mandated at the state level in the USA,
| no?) and the CDC reporting on mental health. Both occured
| independently. There are however plenty of plausible arguments
| to make for lockdowns being causal on mental health though.
| spookthesunset wrote:
| > In some countries it worked, in others it didn't.
|
| You cannot say this for certain. It will take much calmer
| heads before anybody can say these restrictions were worth
| their incredible costs.
|
| > Both occured independently. There are however plenty of
| plausible arguments to make for lockdowns being causal on
| mental health though.
|
| Kids were not allowed to go to school for more than a year.
| You don't need any research to suggest that isn't good for
| kids. Seriously. Claiming these lockdowns and restrictions
| didn't have a significant impact on children is being
| willfully ignorant.
| standardUser wrote:
| The only teens who have been "isolated" for two years are maybe
| some of those at very high risk (or the unfortunate children of
| hyper-paranoid parents). No need to exaggerate.
| qiskit wrote:
| Makes me wonder what the CDC's recommendation will be. More
| medication? More pills? Isn't that their answer for everything.
| We are already the most medicated society on earth. I guess a
| little bit more won't hurt.
| [deleted]
| trhway wrote:
| As I said to my psychologist at the beginning of the pandemic -
| what is done to the children as supposed pandemic fighting
| measures will generate as much work for him for many decades to
| come as he can take as naturally nobody cares about long term.
| stakkur wrote:
| My wife's a middle school teacher for over 22 years. If you want
| an unvarnished view into just how bad things have gotten since
| the pandemic begain--for mental health, school engagement, and
| all things related--talk to a teacher. It's unprecedented, and
| the long tail of the damage will take decades to understand.
| tomohawk wrote:
| It's not like the CDC wasn't warned that their policies would be
| harmful. Oh, wait, they were!
|
| Unfortunately, the CDC policies were captive to the teacher's
| unions, who are anti-child and anti-parent.
|
| https://nypost.com/2021/05/01/teachers-union-collaborated-wi...
| JaimeThompson wrote:
| How are they "anti-parent"?
| manuelabeledo wrote:
| They are "anti-parent" only if they are viewed as
| babysitters.
|
| I think that this idea has been pushed by right wing media as
| part of their "open for business" rhetoric. They claim to be
| concerned about children wellbeing, when the actual goal is
| to get kids out of their homes and parents back to the
| offices.
| manuelabeledo wrote:
| So a teacher's union pushed to protect teachers during a
| pandemic. Shocking, especially after ~1000 teachers died from
| COVID-19.
| tomohawk wrote:
| Thanks for agreeing that the teacher's union pursued an
| agenda contrary to the needs of our children.
|
| It won't be shocking given this activity to undermine our
| children's health that parents will work to re-orient the
| teacher's union to a mission that is actually useful to
| society.
| manuelabeledo wrote:
| > Thanks for agreeing that the teacher's union pursued an
| agenda contrary to the needs of our children.
|
| That's the (far) reaching conclusion from the NYP, that not
| going to school made kids depressed.
|
| The reality is that the only obvious consequence was that
| schools were closed during the pandemic for health reasons.
|
| Now, children mental health treatment have been on the rise
| for the past 30 years or so. Teen suicide grew by 60%
| between 2007 and 2018. I doubt that you can blame that to
| the pandemic too.
|
| > It won't be shocking given this activity to undermine our
| children's health that parents will work to re-orient the
| teacher's union to a mission that is actually useful to
| society.
|
| Here's the thing: teachers didn't sign up to be expendable
| babysitters. They are supposed to teach, not to risk their
| lives or keep your kids under supervision. If you would
| like that, schools may be as well served by the National
| Guard.
| hotpotamus wrote:
| Perhaps we should have a children's union. Maybe then
| someone will think of the children.
| spookthesunset wrote:
| Somehow grocery stores managed to stay open. So did tire
| repair centers, auto shops, home depots, uber drivers, pot
| shop employees, pharmacy employees... what makes teachers so
| damn special?
|
| Adults sacrifice for children. Asking children, none of whom
| are at risk, to sacrifice for more than a year for a bunch of
| frightened adults... it is so disgustingly immoral I can't
| even.
|
| If teachers were scared, they should have quit and let
| somebody else teach the kids. Covid isn't and never was some
| modern black plague. The median age of death was higher than
| the average life expectancy of a human.
| manuelabeledo wrote:
| > what makes teachers so damn special?
|
| Ridiculous. None of those jobs can be performed remotely.
|
| > Adults sacrifice for children [...] If teachers were
| scared, they should have quit and let somebody else teach
| the kids.
|
| So you recognise the need for teachers, but not their right
| to live? Laughable. Also, there is a teacher shortage in
| the US. It's not like there are people queuing up to become
| teachers, so your point is moot.
|
| > The median age of death was higher than the average life
| expectancy of a human.
|
| Disregarding the fact that comparing medians and averages
| makes no sense, what does this matter? Lung cancer
| disproportionally kills more old than young people, does
| that mean that youngsters should be allowed to work in an
| asbestos infested environment?
|
| Regardless, the average age of teachers in the US is 42
| years, and ~20% of them are 55 years or older [1]. COVID-19
| deaths are 4% in the 40-49 age range, and 19% in the 50-64
| age range [2]. On top of that, 60% of Americans have one or
| more comorbidities that increase COVID-19 risk [3], and
| long term COVID-19 is definitely a thing [4]. In
| comparison, if we were to accept that not going to school
| made children suicidal, which is quite a leap, still puts
| suicide rates hundreds of times below COVID-19 mortality
| rate.
|
| So what exactly is your standing here? That we need
| healthier teachers? More reckless ones? That teachers
| should be trained to disregard their own safety in order to
| satisfy your demands? What exactly are the risks in
| children development that would justify all this, by the
| way?
|
| [1] https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/ntps/tables/ntps1718_fltabl
| e02_t...
|
| [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-
| deaths-...
|
| [3] https://www.healthline.com/health-news/60-percent-of-
| america...
|
| [4] https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-
| conditions/coronavirus/i...
| spookthesunset wrote:
| Your own data doesn't say Covid deaths are 4% for that
| age bracket. The IFR for that bracket is orders of
| magnitude better.
|
| That research says that 4% of all deaths came out of that
| age bracket...
|
| Your own data says teachers aren't the largest risk
| group.
|
| Do any of all the pro-lockdown people even look at the
| data?
| Proven wrote:
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2022-04-03 23:00 UTC)