[HN Gopher] Horrible edge cases when dealing with music
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Horrible edge cases when dealing with music
        
       Author : pabs3
       Score  : 466 points
       Date   : 2022-04-03 00:04 UTC (22 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (dustri.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (dustri.org)
        
       | cosmotic wrote:
       | Very "creative"
        
         | tomcam wrote:
         | They missed a few common ones; Led Zeppelin's fourth album with
         | Stairway to Heaven on it was named only with Prince-like
         | symbols, and of course the group named The The (which Google
         | indexes well).
        
           | deadbyte wrote:
           | The Inertia Variations is fantastically uninspiring.
        
           | cgh wrote:
           | Both of these are mentioned in the article, or were you
           | referring to something else?
        
       | mehrzad wrote:
       | A funny edge case I've found in one of the most popular music
       | services (Last.fm). There is an instrumental post-rock ish band
       | called Collections of Colonies of Bees and they have an album
       | where almost all the tracks have the same name; they are all
       | titled "Fun" except for the last track titled "Funeral".
       | https://open.spotify.com/album/0LP8DTy4amlLIVXGOjvCo2?si=HJ3...
       | 
       | This has caused last.fm to think "Fun" is one of my most played
       | songs of the year even though they were all separate tracks.
        
         | aasasd wrote:
         | I bet the most popular track name in techno is "Untitled".
        
       | SAI_Peregrinus wrote:
       | One of the simplest data model mistakes that seems nearly
       | universal in music software is pretending that some things are
       | single values when they're really lists.
       | 
       | Take "artist". An album can have a compilation of tracks, each
       | from a different artist. A given track can have multiple artists,
       | eg a guest singer. There can be multiple composers of a track,
       | there can be multiple writers of lyrics, and there are usually
       | several performers (even if they all are part of the same band).
       | 
       | An album can have multiple names, or no name at all (which often
       | means people refer to it in different ways, giving it multiple
       | effective names). Likewise with tracks.
       | 
       | Albums and tracks get re-released, sometimes re-mastered,
       | sometimes re-recorded entirely, without the names changing.
       | 
       | The same recording of a given track might be released on multiple
       | albums, eg as a single in a pre-release and then within the main
       | album.
       | 
       | Tracks might be mastered differently for different media (Radio
       | vs CD vs background use in cinema, etc).
       | 
       | Names of any of these things don't have to be representable in
       | any existing text encoding, or even any combination of encodings.
       | 
       | Artist name should be a list (or other multiple element
       | structure).
       | 
       | Track name should be a list.
       | 
       | Album name should be a list.
       | 
       | Etc. Assume a malicious artist will find a way to make the
       | assumption that any field has a unique value incorrect.
        
       | creshal wrote:
       | - Artist names can become rather long too, especially for
       | collaborations. Some anime OSTs easily break 256 characters.
       | 
       | - And for song titles that need careful escaping,
       | QuelI->EX[cez]->{kranz}; and EXEC_SOL=FAGE/. have tripped up more
       | than one CLI music player in my experience.
        
         | morelisp wrote:
         | A simpler explanation is that your computer has an unstable
         | grathnode installed.
        
       | petsounds wrote:
       | There is a band from Pasadena, California called Ozma. Way back
       | in the day (1999), they released an album called "Songs of
       | Audible Trucks and Cars" [0] via MP3.com. I later found out that
       | they really wanted the title to be "Songs of _Inaudible_ Trucks
       | and Cars" [1], but MP3.com had a character limit on album titles,
       | so they had to shorten it
       | 
       | [0] https://www.discogs.com/release/8369169-Ozma-Songs-Of-
       | Audibl...
       | 
       | [1] https://www.discogs.com/release/15809071-Ozma-Songs-Of-
       | Inaud...
        
         | revolvingocelot wrote:
         | If, like me, you immediately thought "why not just drop the
         | 'and' and replace it with an ampersand?", Ozma had to do that,
         | too, and parent's quoted the album title incorrectly, alas.
        
           | tashi wrote:
           | "Songs of Inaudible Automobiles" would have fit and been fun
           | to say aloud.
        
       | buro9 wrote:
       | I've recently wondered whether it's worth periodically
       | reprocessing the metadata on music files with musicbrainz Picard.
       | 
       | It was all done when added to the catalog, but presumably the
       | metadata could be updated and a periodic refresh would be a
       | benefit.
        
       | FabHK wrote:
       | Meta Comment:
       | 
       | I much prefer this informative post (with a clear title and
       | plenty of examples and explanations) to the uncommented
       | "Falsehoods programmers believe about ..." listicles.
        
         | MereInterest wrote:
         | Absolutely. Stating that an assumption is false with no further
         | information doesn't help me update my mental model of the
         | world. Giving an example of how an assumption is incorrect
         | shows the type of errors that can occur, when they can occur,
         | and lets the reader figure out a better way to work around the
         | false assumption.
        
       | sriku wrote:
       | I understand "horrible" in this case in a somewhat lighthearted
       | sense. But it points to a tendency to simplify cultural
       | complexity in the interest of "legibility" from the system
       | perspective. The same diversity of cases need to be accommodated
       | in much design done for, say, a diverse country like India where
       | though urban populace me be English savvy, rural populace aren't
       | necessarily so ... And even in urban areas local language and
       | culture dominates.
       | 
       | A place this diversity crops up most commonly is the so called
       | "standard" firstname middlename lastname fields. This just
       | doesn't work in India where people may have even 7 components to
       | their names ... and who are you, dear system developer, to
       | dictate what their name should be like.
       | 
       | The name structure diversity I understand is a problem for Europe
       | too with hyphenated names. This brilliant sketch by Fry and
       | Laurie says it all - https://youtu.be/1LopIroSjsU
        
         | wincy wrote:
         | I mean, we get to dictate it because we're writing the code and
         | don't know? I guess enterprising Indian developers should help
         | it get fixed. As the whole world gets online this stuff gets
         | sorted out, eventually. It's not as if it's malice or
         | something. There are Americans with longer names though, I had
         | a friend whose full name was five words, and all of his sisters
         | and brothers also had "three middle names".
        
           | sriku wrote:
           | Not malice ... rather incompetence. If we can't handle this
           | much accessibility, what hope do we have of making "ethical
           | AI"?
        
       | throwaway684936 wrote:
       | Presenting my new album: SQL Injection'); DROP TABLE Artists;--
        
         | Tokkemon wrote:
         | Amazing!
        
           | aaaaaaaaata wrote:
           | Provocative, you could say.
        
       | defensem3ch wrote:
       | There's also Goto80's Files in Space
       | https://www.goto80.com/goto80-files-in-space-mcmp3-data-airl...
        
       | nescioquid wrote:
       | Here "edge-case" indicates that music is not mere noise, while
       | somehow remaining an instance of "marketing" or "acculturation".
       | 
       | This is a good example of what happens when the insensate take
       | power and pander to those who just want to read the "rule book".
       | 
       | No art. No expression. No bother.
       | 
       | Let's just agree on some fucking fiction that gets record label
       | to bother with classical music meta-data in a way that meets the
       | real world. Can we start there, at least?
       | 
       | edit: click the inverted triangle if you are a jack-ass
        
         | nescioquid wrote:
         | You know, I've never down-voted anyone.
         | 
         | I think doing so is somehow complicit with the status quo
         | idiocy the world evinces. Instead, I prefer to voice my
         | disagreement with a comment which hazards some reasoning and
         | which elicits a discussion.
         | 
         | But clicking the inverted triangle is unassailable and makes
         | everyone who resorts to it a coward. Fuck off, you enemies of
         | music and reason! Were I a lazy asshole, I'd spend my entire
         | day down-voting everyone! How much easier could it be?
        
           | cgh wrote:
           | This is pretty classic r/iamverysmart material right here.
        
           | nescioquid wrote:
           | About what I expected from a herd of Eseln. Thanks for
           | confirmation.
        
         | thewakalix wrote:
         | You didn't say "only if", so it's still possible to click the
         | inverted triangle without being a jack-ass.
        
       | porcoda wrote:
       | In addition to all of these edge cases, it doesn't help that the
       | metadata services have a lot of inconsistency as well. Say I have
       | a song X that was performed live on DATE at some VENUE. It may
       | show up as titled "X", "X [live]", "X (Live DATE)", "X (DATE
       | VENUE)", and so on. Stuff that should be in metadata ends up in
       | strings embedded in song and album titles, which makes for a big
       | mess. I curate a huge collection and trying to keep my metadata
       | consistent is a massive headache. I think I've tried just about
       | every tool out there and still haven't found one that I'm happy
       | with.
        
       | wdr1 wrote:
       | I feel like musicians were doing Little Bobby Drop Tables long
       | before the XKCD comic.
        
       | seaish wrote:
       | Related, songs that are meant to be played by accident:
       | https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/j4he7lv/183-the-veno...
       | 
       | Example album: https://drumkoon.bandcamp.com/album/they-tried-to-
       | ban-this
       | 
       | He has hits like "Hey Gugle Play Music" and "Hey Siri Play Space
       | Music".
        
         | mherdeg wrote:
         | I enjoyed his track "Sorry Katie I Spammed Your Smart Speaker".
        
       | shiomiru wrote:
       | Unicode support is one thing. I frequently have to re-tag
       | Japanese music because its tags are encoded in shift-jis which in
       | general doesn't work on Linux.
        
       | bobbyi wrote:
       | Amongst major artists, Tupac is good at causing confusion. Is he
       | Tupac, 2Pac or Tupac Shakur? Does it depend on the album? Is his
       | alter ego Makaveli a different artist?
        
         | emptybits wrote:
         | Yup. ARTIST_ID does not have a 1:1 relationship with
         | ARTIST_NAME over time.
         | 
         | Another example... from 1976 to present day: Johnny Cougar -
         | John Cougar - John Cougar Mellencamp - John Mellencamp.
         | 
         | Close enough for library software to store/recall them all as
         | "John Mellencamp"? Maybe. But perhaps not to fans or historian
         | or artist liking.
        
         | geenew wrote:
         | Richard D James == "Aphex Twin" || "AFX" || "Caustic Window" ||
         | "Bradley Strider" || "GAK" || "user48736353001" || "Polygon
         | Window" || "Universal Indicator" || "The Tuss" || "Powerpill"
         | || "Mike & Rich"
         | 
         | (for me, 'artist' is the alias, 'album artist' is 'Richard D
         | James'...)
        
           | webmaven wrote:
           | Don't forget Garth Brooks|Chris Gaines and Eminem|Slim Shady
        
         | Klaster_1 wrote:
         | Imagine documenting something like this
         | https://www.discogs.com/artist/661099-Filipe-Santos (check out
         | the edit history) where the artist actively sabotages the
         | documentation effort and makes their music unavailable on a
         | whim.
        
       | tzs wrote:
       | It's not much an edge case in the sense of those, which mostly
       | concern software authors making incorrect assumptions about the
       | data in fields, but rather a "not even realizing we need a field"
       | case, but music library managers are often quite annoying when
       | dealing with classical music.
       | 
       | They really want to fit everything into the artist/album/song
       | scheme, and that doesn't really work well for much classical
       | music. In classical music most of us would want something like
       | composer/piece/orchestra/conductor/performers (the "performers"
       | field would be for performers in addition to the normal
       | orchestra, such as soloists or choruses), and it should be
       | possible to change the sort key order among those fields.
        
         | TheOtherHobbes wrote:
         | It's a sleeve notes problem. Ideally you'd want a complete copy
         | of all the info in the sleeve/inlay. This includes some
         | combination of headline writer/composer, producer, conductor,
         | headline performer, co-writers, arrangers, session players,
         | engineer, studio, lyrics, and random sleeve notes/essay,
         | possibly in multiple languages.
         | 
         | Per track.
         | 
         | Plus artwork. With credits.
         | 
         | Plus random thank-yous and special thank-yous to sponsors and
         | other contributors.
         | 
         | The importance of each field varies with each project. For
         | classical conductor showcase projects the conductor is the
         | headliner. For classical composers, obviously it's the
         | composer. For compilations it can be a concept like "Classical
         | Chill" or "Early Music from the 15th Century." For pop projects
         | it's usually the band/artist name. For movie tie-ins, it's the
         | movie, or perhaps the franchise.
         | 
         | And so on.
         | 
         | You get all of this for free on CD/vinyl labels, and the fact
         | that it's freeform doesn't matter because the sleeve artwork
         | and visual placing of the elements make it clear who/what
         | matters.
         | 
         | Trying to fit this into a single fixed metadata schema is
         | madness. It _can 't be done._
         | 
         | This is one of those situations where trying to data-fy the
         | information leads to huge loss of detail. You get some nominal
         | (poor) searchability, but you give up a huge amount of
         | interesting supporting information.
         | 
         | What the industry needs is a digital sleeve note standard which
         | can handle all of this and more.
         | 
         | But metadata is designed for sales and stream tracking, not for
         | user satisfaction. Which is why it's so bad at capturing what
         | users want.
        
         | jay-anderson wrote:
         | Definitely. Pieces end up being listed something like "Symphony
         | No.3, Mvt. II", but they only show the performer which is the
         | orchestra playing rather than the composer so I have no idea
         | which symphony it is. I haven't seen any service get classical
         | music right.
         | 
         | I think your list is pretty good
         | (composer/piece/orchestra/conductor/performers). It'd be nice
         | to also have a field for the movement. Also I totally agree
         | with custom sort order being a must. E.g. for choir pieces swap
         | out 'orchestra' for 'choir', for piano pieces only include
         | 'performer' field, concertos should have the 'soloist' before
         | the orchestra, etc.
        
         | Aidevah wrote:
         | Agreed, I've tested many self-hosted music streaming servers
         | and decided to settle with navidrome in the end but not without
         | major reservations. I personally don't mind sorting music via
         | album/song, but the lack of composer field is really painful.
         | Unfortunately the omission of composer information occurs in
         | the subsonic api, which have a large number of compatible
         | players, so adding the field is not as straightforward if one
         | wishes to do it in an interoperable way.
         | 
         | I used to be quite happy with a local music library and playing
         | it with mpd, but at some point I got sick of maintaining over
         | 100 GB of music library across multiple devices. The streaming
         | solutions for mpd are quite awkward to use, otherwise I would
         | have stuck with it just to get the composer field.
        
         | nerdponx wrote:
         | A lot of music library managers (including good old iTunes) let
         | you add a lot of various and esoteric song tag data as columns
         | in the track list. The problem was always that the column
         | arrangement that makes sense for one style of music doesn't
         | make sense for another.
         | 
         | One missing feature that I've never seen in a music library
         | application is the ability to have "presets" for these column
         | headers that you can easily switch between. So you can turn on
         | the "classical" preset which shows Composer, Performer, etc.,
         | and you can turn on the "contemporary" preset which shows
         | Artist and Album.
        
           | Semaphor wrote:
           | That's actually something MediaMonkey [0] (Windows-only) had
           | for a long time (I assume the current electron version as
           | well, I use the last native version). Classical is one of the
           | defaults, but you can add whatever.
           | 
           | It's one of my favorite pieces of software, a true music
           | library manager and not a music player with some management
           | features tacked on.
           | 
           | [0]: https://www.mediamonkey.com/
        
         | thaumasiotes wrote:
         | There's an analogous problem going on on musescore.com, where
         | you're supposed to list the work your score is based on.
         | Viewing a score on the site will then include links to other
         | scores based on the same work.
         | 
         | I uploaded several pieces from Swan Lake, and listed each of
         | them as the particular piece that they were. For example,
         | https://musescore.com/user/36584999/scores/6642212 is Swan
         | Lake, No. 4 (Pas de trois), part IV.
         | 
         | But every time I list a piece like this, it gets "corrected" to
         | the canonical reference, which is "Swan Lake". And the "other
         | scores based on the same work" are totally useless, because
         | they can be any piece from anywhere in the ballet. It's more
         | than 600 pages long! Where's the value add from _removing_ my
         | indication of exactly which piece of Swan Lake I just scored?
        
         | CharlesW wrote:
         | > _...music library managers are often quite annoying when
         | dealing with classical music._
         | 
         | Apple will apparently be solving this problem this year with a
         | dedicated "Apple Classical" app, the origin of which is their
         | Primephonic (https://www.primephonic.com/) acquihire.
         | 
         | "Why are you shutting down Primephonic?"
         | 
         | "To focus on creating an even better experience for customers
         | around the world. Apple Music plans to launch a dedicated
         | classical music app next year combining Primephonic's classical
         | user interface that fans have grown to love with more added
         | features."
        
       | nailer wrote:
       | The odd one for me is Pendulum - there's two different Australian
       | acts, both electronic, with the name Pendulum. For some reason
       | the newer Pendulum really liked the name and weren't bothered /
       | ethically concerned that the Pendulum that made 'Coma' had
       | already existed. As of today Spotify has songs from both artists
       | under the same artist name.
        
         | lukaslalinsky wrote:
         | There are much worse things than Pendulum. John Williams seems
         | a very popular name for artists. :) Back when I was designing
         | the "new" MusicBrainz database, that's what we have been using
         | as the test case for this.
        
         | lukeh wrote:
         | Plenty of duplicate artist names, Spotify artist support will
         | split them into separate artists if you contact them, and now
         | aggregators like DistroKid let you specify the actual artist ID
         | when uploading (at least for some DSPs). It's just another
         | instance of there are only two hard problems :)
        
         | tomcam wrote:
         | Yeah my favorite is definitely Pendulum.
        
       | lacrosse_tannin wrote:
       | There's also different releases of the same album... 2020
       | remaster, vinyl rip, web flac, japan edition...
       | 
       | Sometimes the music app just smooshes all together so the "album"
       | looks like it has 4 of each track
        
       | nescioquid wrote:
       | I wonder what the "You suck, Flying Circus" sounds like.
        
       | joe__f wrote:
       | Does anyone recognise the equation from the Aphex Twin track?
       | 
       | [?]M-1=-a [?] D[e][ [?] Fj[e-1]+Fext [e-1]]
       | 
       | With the [?]M and the sum over Fs, I wondered if it might be
       | something to do with rocket dynamics derived from Newton's second
       | law?
        
         | trelliscoded wrote:
         | It's pseudomathematical nonsense. The Fji term might be a hint
         | about the image hidden in the track when plotted on a
         | spectrogram, but the rest of it doesn't make much sense. You
         | can see the original title here:
         | 
         | https://i.discogs.com/YC8CLuli-NW3VB5z7eA9mALjnL2Qef4aGyDYH4...
         | 
         | As an example, why would the index of the last term be inverted
         | like that? Maybe it's supposed to mean something phonetically,
         | but I'm not a music person so I can't figure it out.
        
           | joe__f wrote:
           | Oh I didn't realise the eta was the index, I was reading the
           | sum as over i on the right hand side
        
       | Bud wrote:
       | Pretty disappointing to see an entire article like this go by
       | without a single mention of classical music. Also known as
       | basically all music prior to 1940 plus a lot of the most enduring
       | music since.
        
         | Karuma wrote:
         | They do mention Tchaikovsky there... Or what do you mean,
         | exactly?
        
         | zokier wrote:
         | > Also known as basically all music prior to 1940
         | 
         | Sure, if you ignore blues&jazz, traditional folk, and all non-
         | western music.
        
         | tomcam wrote:
         | Not sure I understand? There are accepted names/sequencing for
         | all major Baroque, Classical, Romantic etc. artists: Mozart K
         | numbers, Bach BWV numbers, etc. And usually there's a close to
         | unique name like Adagio in D Minor, Piano Sonata in Bb Major,
         | etc.
        
           | repsilat wrote:
           | I guess they mean that there are no original recordings for
           | most of it, lots of cover bands etc.
        
       | Tokkemon wrote:
       | Most of this is great, but I'm calling BS on the Tchaikovsky
       | example. Yes, there's been multiple historical spellings of his
       | name, and to be absolutely accurate you would use the Cyrillic.
       | However, the vast, vast majority of use cases should use the
       | modern accepted spelling in English when referring to
       | Tchaikovsky, which is what Wikipedia uses. There's a line you
       | have to draw somewhere between accuracy and comprehension by the
       | user and "Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky" is a pretty damn good one.
       | The only other one I see commonly these days is the slightly more
       | Anglicized "Peter Ilyich Tchaikovsky" but that's it. Most other
       | variants are historical or just have different editorial
       | decisions, but they all refer back to the same guy, not a living
       | artist who is changing his stage name all the time.
        
         | blahedo wrote:
         | > _...in English..._
         | 
         | Even in English-language contexts I've seen variants of the
         | German-style transliteration on occasion. But more importantly,
         | the author is not restricting himself to English, and indeed
         | the musicbrainz link gets to such a high count precisely by
         | including other languages' transliterations. Only three are
         | listed as English, and they're the two you mention
         | (with/without Anglo first name) plus one that omits the middle
         | name.
         | 
         | Were you saying that all other languages should use "the modern
         | accepted spelling in English", or were you just ignoring the
         | fact that speakers of other languages (or owners of foreign-
         | published albums) might use music databases?
        
           | kzrdude wrote:
           | The database might implicitly force a monolingual perspective
           | on the dataset if they can't handle multiple translations of
           | several fields. It's not an easy problem to manage, I
           | imagine.
        
       | thrdbndndn wrote:
       | > Weird album names:
       | 
       | > + from Justice
       | 
       | > from David Bowie
       | 
       | > ' from Frank Zappa
       | 
       | > () from Sigur Ros
       | 
       | How are these albums names "edge cases"? I feel like ANY software
       | would deal with them just fine. Hell, the last two don't even use
       | non-ascii characters (though you definitely should have unicode
       | support regardless).
       | 
       | Edit: I just realize HN won't the star symbol (U+2605). Which is
       | weird since it does support characters like Chinese/Japanese
       | glyphs aiueoNi Hao
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | Beltalowda wrote:
         | There are actually some challenges with stuff like that; how do
         | you sort "'" for example? Most people call the album
         | "Apostrophe"; should it be sorted under "A"? What about the
         | "+"? "D" for dagger? Somewhere else? How do you find things
         | like that in the search box? Should searching for "star" return
         | that Bowie album?
         | 
         | > Edit: I just realize HN can't display [star]
         | 
         | It doesn't do emojis and various graphic characters. This is
         | supposedly a "feature" _shrug-emoji-here_
        
           | Freak_NL wrote:
           | Sorting is usually solved by allowing for optional separate
           | sorting-key tags. So ' :                   album='
           | albumsort=Apostrophe
           | 
           | These can act as search input as well, so searching for
           | 'apostrophe' could yield it depending on the software used.
           | 
           | + can either just sort wherever Unicode puts it, or if the
           | album has a known pronunciation like 'star' above, have a
           | sorting key too.
        
             | Beltalowda wrote:
             | > + can either just sort wherever Unicode puts it, or if
             | the album has a known pronunciation like 'star' above, have
             | a sorting key too.
             | 
             | Sure, but it doesn't happen automatically, so it's not
             | "just do [..]". You need to think about some of these edge
             | cases.
             | 
             | I wrote a simple music library/player a bunch of years ago
             | and ran in to some of these issues. I never did figure out
             | how to deal with the band named "" in a sane way.
        
               | thrdbndndn wrote:
               | You can "just do" the default string sorting. The system
               | (or programming language you're using, etc.) always have
               | a way to sort them by default.
               | 
               | And it doesn't have to be in A to Z. It could be (and
               | IMO, should be) in "special" which such initial-index
               | catalog typically already have.
        
             | rzzzt wrote:
             | Wikipedia lists it as "Cross":
             | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_(Justice_album)
        
           | kzrdude wrote:
           | The aversion to emojis is strange. I've come around to
           | thinking of them as a net positive. Just text is sterile and
           | the tone often comes off wrong! Smiles lighten up
           | conversation, we need that to not lose track of each other's
           | humanity when arguing in comment threads. :)
        
           | [deleted]
        
         | kingcharles wrote:
         | This is more of an edge case:
         | 
         | https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0022/8193/0805/products/im...
         | 
         | When music downloads were first starting up in the late 90s I
         | was responsible for building a schema to store all the world's
         | music. We had to rip millions of CDs. When I got that Aphex
         | Twin one above I gave up. I think we just called it [Track 2]
         | or [Maths symbols] or something.
        
         | kingcharles wrote:
         | HN strips emojis. I can't even paste my web site domain on
         | here.
        
       | maxbendick wrote:
       | My time to shine! I work in music distribution.
       | 
       | The Apple Music style guide is a great and accessible place to
       | look if you're interested in music metadata:
       | https://help.apple.com/itc/musicstyleguide/en.lproj/static.h...
       | 
       | DDEX is the set of metadata standards used across the music
       | industry: https://ddex.net/
       | 
       | Also worth knowing that not all content on streaming services is
       | music! Some of it is spoken word, ASMR, non-music field
       | recordings, etc. The difference between sound and music is
       | subjective of course though.
       | 
       | On an artistic note, music can of course be presented in an
       | infinite amount of ways. Not all these can be represented (i.e.,
       | re-presented) on streaming platforms. Installations and
       | generative music for example. That's ok! To be able to represent
       | all this music (and non-music) requires restrictions, otherwise
       | we wouldn't be able to create programs for it in the first place.
       | 
       | Sometimes restrictions on sound content are to make the streaming
       | services friendlier to use, like the formatting of featured
       | artists in titles. Royalty laws put restrictions on the handling
       | of different roles, like songwriters and composers.
       | 
       | BUT nothing is stopping you from building your own way of
       | representing music digitally, so long as you follow relevant
       | laws.
        
         | seba_dos1 wrote:
         | > Also worth knowing that not all content on streaming services
         | is music! Some of it is spoken word, ASMR, non-music field
         | recordings, etc. The difference between sound and music is
         | subjective of course though.
         | 
         | Even some albums that are clearly about music can contain non-
         | music, take Tenacious D's skits as an example.
        
         | Thorrez wrote:
         | >Sometimes restrictions on sound content
         | 
         | Is there some sort of rule against sirens?
         | 
         | The song "Car Alarm" prominently features a car alarm on
         | Youtube, but not on Spotify. This could just be a choice by the
         | artists though, rather than a platform restriction.
         | 
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV7nHX2RLjQ
         | 
         | https://open.spotify.com/album/2u4HDb57v96iiJZUC7PqOx?highli...
        
           | spicyjpeg wrote:
           | I have noticed that it's fairly common for many songs to
           | feature random car sounds in their YouTube mixes, but not in
           | the final masters that end up on iTunes and streaming
           | services. It is also relatively common to have "watermarks"
           | (e.g. additional short vocal clips at the beginning and end)
           | added to the YT/Soundcloud mix, presumably to make it easier
           | to figure out if a DJ just ripped the song off YT.
        
             | hnlmorg wrote:
             | Music videos will often have different versions of the song
             | with added sound effects, a more cinematic intro and outro,
             | and even breaks in the song for a dramatic sequence. These
             | flourishes make sense when you have a video but wouldn't
             | make any sense in purely audio context.
        
           | withinboredom wrote:
           | Probably not a rule, but maybe more like a liability thing?
           | If people listen to your music while driving, you don't want
           | them to freak out from the sound effects and then sue you
           | because they got in a car accident.
        
             | moogly wrote:
             | I guess don't put on Steve Reich's "City Life" when driving
             | in NYC.
        
           | ratww wrote:
           | That's a music video. They traditionally have sounds and
           | dialog that aren't part of the music itself.
           | 
           | Here's the regular version, same as Spotify, also on Youtube:
           | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4inWiKCt-E
           | 
           | I don't know if Spotify has music videos, but Apple Music for
           | example does, so you can have both versions.
        
         | fivre wrote:
         | Maybe you can explain one of my long-burning questions: why are
         | non-English tracks handled so inconsistently? I'll sometimes
         | see an English translation, sometimes a transliteration (for
         | non-Latin scripts), and sometimes the original language. It's
         | not consistent which gets used even for a single artist, and
         | sometimes changes to a different one.
         | 
         | The albums Angedoniia
         | (https://open.spotify.com/album/1HxmgR8wpc1ySplYCTNwaW or
         | https://i.imgur.com/ndOXsgL.png) and Prodano!
         | (https://open.spotify.com/album/5kp7j9B4TDA3VfhaXz9XcJ or
         | https://i.imgur.com/QJNjXc1.png), for example, both contain a
         | version of the track "Rizhskaia". The former uses the original
         | Russian while the latter uses Rigas', which is a sort-of
         | translation (it's an adjectival version of "Riga", which
         | doesn't really exist in English).
         | 
         | https://help.apple.com/itc/musicstyleguide/en.lproj/static.h...
         | indicates that there are separate fields for each of the
         | original, the translation, and the transliteration, but it
         | doesn't seem like anyone actually _uses_ these, and instead
         | just picks one arbitrarily to stuff into the main/native field.
         | I'm not sure if Spotify even has a way to display the
         | alternates--I can't recall ever seeing a toggle for it, though
         | idk if I've ever actually encountered a track that includes the
         | variants, since you can't see raw metadata on Spotify.
         | 
         | Is it just that music labels do a lackluster job of handling
         | metadata? I expect this is probably the case, since classical
         | music is similarly messy--it's a crapshoot whether the composer
         | or performer gets used as the artist. For that I've at least
         | seen the composer metadata field populated sometimes, but
         | internationalization fields don't seem to be used ever.
        
           | stavros wrote:
           | It's really hard finding Greek songs on Spotify for this
           | reason. There are many ways to transliterate (eg "eukhe" can
           | be "efhi", "euxi", and all the combinations thereof, and
           | that's just with two ambiguous letters) and no names are in
           | Greek, so it's basically a game of trying to guess the
           | transliteration for the track you want.
        
             | notimetorelax wrote:
             | I'd say software should handle this issue - you type in
             | Greek and it should match all possible transliterations.
        
               | stavros wrote:
               | That's very hard, there are too many combinations. A
               | better solution would be to just use the original Greek
               | name.
        
               | YawningAngel wrote:
               | That's a good solution for Greek speakers, but a terrible
               | solution for non-Greek speakers, who _can_ learn a
               | "canonical" transliteration but can't write Greek
        
               | stavros wrote:
               | There is no canonical transliteration, though. Also it
               | doesn't make sense to learn Greek like that, and nobody
               | does in practice.
        
               | wolverine876 wrote:
               | While I don't doubt your knowledge, note that many
               | aspects of European language, including English, and
               | including the European alphabets, are in a sense
               | transliterations of Greek.
        
               | stavros wrote:
               | Certainly, and there isn't a canonical transliteration
               | there either. There is some consistency, but the primary
               | goal was that the words look good in the target language,
               | which isn't a concern for me when I want to type my
               | language in a keyboard that doesn't have Greek letters.
               | For that case, multiple transliterations per letter
               | exist, including some that use numbers (e.g. thelo =
               | thelo, thelw, 8elv, and any combination of those).
        
               | wolverine876 wrote:
               | Oh, I absolutely agree that they should list the original
               | Greek titles. I was just addressing an interesting (to
               | me) linguistic side issue.
        
               | stavros wrote:
               | Ah, yeah, I agree that the way that Greek words got
               | transliterated is actually very interesting (doubly so
               | when you speak Greek and can see the intent behind it).
        
           | maxbendick wrote:
           | This is an area that many parties handle differently.
           | Streaming services, artists, labels, and distributors don't
           | all handle translation metadata consistently. There are specs
           | in DDEX for this, but it's a matter of support and doing the
           | translation work AFAIK.
        
           | bobuk wrote:
           | quick upvote for examples from Yanka. I thought that I'm the
           | only one who still listening her.
        
         | slaymaker1907 wrote:
         | I still think it's pretty bad for classical music. An important
         | question for various pieces is who plays a particular
         | instrument, but there really isn't a nice way to encode this in
         | the metadata (encoding the relation of both person and role
         | where role could be anything).
         | 
         | I also usually want to know who the conductor was and what was
         | the orchestra
        
           | inopinatus wrote:
           | I'd expect publishers of classical music to know the
           | difference between a composer, a conductor, a soloist, and an
           | orchestra, but no, apparently not. They freely mash them up
           | across fields. The difference between a symphony and an album
           | is often mangled too, especially on releases containing
           | multiple works. And for fuck's sake, no, a movement is not a
           | song. I don't play, "like", flag, list, cross-fade, or
           | reshuffle them independently.
           | 
           | Music metadata has been optimized to suit the marketing
           | preferences of contemporary record labels. But more general
           | classes of music won't shift units on Spotify so the message
           | is loud and clear, a resounding "get fucked" from the
           | assholes that run this industry.
           | 
           | (One side of my family is in the recording business. I can
           | confirm the whole thing is run by assholes.)
        
             | efitz wrote:
             | I like being able to address and like/favorite individual
             | movements. Beethoven Piano Sonata #14 ("Moonlight") is a
             | masterpiece, but the second movement is <expletive>. I
             | don't know if I could listen to it hundreds of times like I
             | have the first and third movements.
        
               | hulitu wrote:
               | > Beethoven Piano Sonata #14 ("Moonlight") is a
               | masterpiece,
               | 
               | Which one ? Played by Kissin ? Or by Rubinstein ? Or by
               | ...
        
               | 8bitsrule wrote:
               | Most consider the _composition_ to be a masterpiece.
               | 
               | Artists/conductors 'perform' 'interpretations' of works.
               | Whether any interpretation is 'masterful' or 'virtuosic',
               | etc., is up to the critical listener.
               | 
               | Three recordings by Horowitz may have been released ...
               | which one is 'best'? Depends on the phase of the moon and
               | your playback equipment!
               | 
               | The 'quality' of a particular performance may depend on
               | the instrument provided to the artist. The year of
               | recording can be _very_ important (reflects techology
               | used). The acoustics of the recording venue are also
               | inherently part of the performance ... e.g. too much
               | reverb.
        
               | 8bitsrule wrote:
               | Many classical works have more than one 'track'.
               | Musicians, critics, etc. usually refer to them by the
               | tempo marking text. A lot of music software just doesn't
               | get this. These tempo markings (by the composer; often in
               | italian) are the _track names_. So Moonlight has 3
               | movements:
               | 
               | I. Adagio sostenuto
               | 
               | II. Allegretto
               | 
               | III. Presto agitato
        
               | inopinatus wrote:
               | This is perfectly highlighting that we've got no way to
               | express our actual preferences, and are stuck treating
               | something as a song when it isn't, but it's the only
               | paradigm offered to us.
        
           | gvurrdon wrote:
           | This is also important for jazz. Should I wish, for example,
           | to find albums where a particular bassist is playing then
           | this would be rather difficult unless they happen to be the
           | leader for that particular recording. Also, it would be
           | particularly helpful to have subgenres, e.g. jazz -> post
           | bop, jazz -> free, etc.
        
           | azalemeth wrote:
           | This, many times over. Id3 tags are one thing but all decent
           | classical record labels (most of whom have always been drm-
           | free) like Hyperion or Naxos give you a pdf cd jewel case
           | booklet. I've got recordings of many friends and it's always
           | a pleasure to see their names in this. I don't use streaming
           | services and one of the unexpected joys of iTunes is that the
           | album art can contain a pdf with a cover image. The rest of
           | the UI mostly assumes that you're listening to non-classical
           | music though. I'd love to able to search for e.g. "Victoria's
           | Requiem" and get albums with sensible names, even if they're
           | in Latin, seemlessly grouped by performance.
        
           | eliaspro wrote:
           | A few years ago, we started working on a platform for
           | classical music [1] and took great pride in our metadata and
           | our underlying schema which basically covered 99% of all the
           | weird edge cases classical music has.
           | 
           | Unfortunately, we couldn't make it work economically even
           | though we tried several approaches for monetization and had
           | to shutdown a while ago.
           | 
           | [1] https://grammofy.com/
        
             | wolverine876 wrote:
             | Might you release the schema into the public domain? I know
             | that's much more easily said than done, and it's your hard
             | work and you deserve the benefits, so no argument from me
             | if you don't.
             | 
             | Or maybe share some tips on what works with the corpus of
             | classical metadata?
        
               | eliaspro wrote:
               | While I'd love to see some of the quite spectacular
               | internal tooling + data to be released under an open
               | license, put to use for enhancing MusicBrainz' existing
               | data etc., I doubt it's going to happen.
               | 
               | All team members have started new opportunities since
               | quite a while and untangling all this, filtering out
               | potentially copyrighted/licensed material etc. would take
               | quite some effort.
        
             | 999900000999 wrote:
             | I primarily make hip hop music, but I would absolutely love
             | a platform like this where I can listen to a classical
             | piece, and download the score and MIDI files.
             | 
             | Are there any legal reasons preventing this ? I don't have
             | the ability to play classical music myself, ( my weighted
             | 88 key sits taunting me), but I'd love to be able to take
             | these compositions and integrate them into my own music.
        
               | colejohnson66 wrote:
               | IANAL, but in the US, copyright on classical pieces tends
               | to apply to the performances, not the music. For example,
               | a Bach piece is in the public domain (the score and
               | probably the MIDI derivative[a]) just from being old
               | enough, but a recording of that public domain piece may
               | be copyrighted itself.
               | 
               | As always, this isn't universal. Check your local
               | copyright laws to be sure.
        
         | infofarmer wrote:
         | Pleasant to see Apple has made some progress on their metadata
         | guidelines (it used to be abhorrent for a company saved by the
         | iPod). Looks like a useful one-pager to get a quick overview of
         | the challenges without getting into any of them.
         | 
         | For a proper attempt to preserve metadata, I'd refer to the
         | MusicBrainz Style Guideline --
         | https://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style
        
       | infofarmer wrote:
       | There's a reason why MusicBrainz SQL schema looks like what it
       | looks like, after years of careful simplification to achieve an
       | optimum approximation of reality.
       | 
       | https://musicbrainz.org/doc/MusicBrainz_Database/Schema
       | 
       | 10+ years ago at Zvooq, during the golden age of music metadata
       | and recsys startups, we tried to really solve entity resolution
       | in the domain. I've never seen another streaming service make an
       | honest attempt at this, even at Spotify with their 2014 acquihire
       | of the Echo Nest. You still get Utada and Hikaru Utada as
       | ~completely separate entities
        
         | willhinsa wrote:
         | what.cd had a really solid model as a user, but I've certainly
         | been pleasantly pleased with musicbrainz.org
        
           | throwaway48375 wrote:
           | I really miss what.cd
        
             | isoprophlex wrote:
             | How do you feel about redacted? It seems to operate in the
             | same spirit (if not backend code)
        
               | throwaway48375 wrote:
               | Got nothing against them, but it's still not what just
               | like what wasn't oink. Every time there is something lost
               | you just can't get back.
        
           | dewey wrote:
           | What.cd had a very simple data model and it had the same
           | issue as many music sites trying to fit it into a simple
           | schema (and not a more sophisticated one like MB). The first
           | issue that comes to mind was artist with the same name, these
           | ended up being the same artist (Just like on Last.fm) if not
           | split by hand by changing the artist name.
           | 
           | The schema is here in case you are curious:
           | https://github.com/WhatCD/Gazelle/blob/master/gazelle.sql
        
         | andybak wrote:
         | Ha! I contributed the initial classical style guide many, many
         | moons ago.
         | 
         | I'm still technically an automod although I haven't
         | participated for a long time.
        
         | Helmut10001 wrote:
         | I think MusicBrainz did a great job to find some common agreed
         | denominator between all these styles and formats for music
         | metadata. After setting up Funkwhale [1], I went through all my
         | 16000 MP3s and synced those with the MusicBrainz Library, also
         | adding new entries. It went pretty smooth and my library looks
         | much better now. It is also really fun to listen again, when
         | everything is structured and labeled.
         | 
         | (btw., yes, I bought a large percentage and, nowadays, mostly
         | buy on bandcamp [2]).
         | 
         | [1]: https://funkwhale.audio/ [2]: https://bandcamp.com/
        
       | photon-torpedo wrote:
       | To add to the list: Song titles that cannot be fully represented
       | in Unicode. Example (also to plug my favorite band): Magma, a
       | French progressive rock [*] band that's been (on and off) active
       | for more than 50 years, mostly uses their own invented language
       | "Kobaian" where some of the characters use diacritics that are
       | (to the best of my knowledge) not present in Unicode. E.g.
       | there's an S with a kind of crown on top.
       | 
       | [*] Actually their style of music is unique enough that it's
       | given rise to its own genre, "Zeuhl".
        
       | inetsee wrote:
       | How about the horrible edge case when trying to read this pale
       | blue text against a white background. It's been a while since I
       | criticized the readability of a web page, but I think this page
       | deserves a critique.
        
       | f7ebc20c97 wrote:
       | I'm gonna name my band an 18 TB string of random characters,
       | interspersed with an "idea" that you can't even put into text!
       | Take THAT, Unicode!
        
         | javajosh wrote:
         | Ooh, that gives me the idea to name my album the base64
         | encoding of it's tracks. The album itself, of course, would be
         | empty.
        
           | akira2501 wrote:
           | I believe you would no longer be able to copyright the track,
           | then. So, you should encrypt the encoded titles, but record
           | an audio track that is a voice recording of you reading out
           | the encryption key for that track. You know, for DRM.
        
             | seba_dos1 wrote:
             | > I believe you would no longer be able to copyright the
             | track
             | 
             | Why? I'm not sure about US law, but here in Poland it would
             | definitely still be copyrighted (even if you'd be
             | effectively granting an automatic implicit license to use
             | that name for the purpose of referencing the work).
        
               | akira2501 wrote:
               | My logic is that you cannot copyright a fact. It is a
               | fact you released an album, and it is a fact you titled
               | it such. I'm free to reproduce that information, say in a
               | catalog, without violating copyright.
        
             | [deleted]
        
             | labster wrote:
             | It doesn't matter if he can copyright it, he can still sell
             | NFTs of each album track.
        
         | eyelidlessness wrote:
         | Hi are you Fiona Apple and if so can we be friends?
        
         | scns wrote:
         | Is that the limit on Postgres' TEXT column?
        
       | whyoh wrote:
       | Tagging challenges are one reason why I sort and browse music by
       | folders/filesystem.
        
       | thristian wrote:
       | Peter Gabriel's first _four_ solo albums were untitled. Well, the
       | fourth was titled in America, but untitled everywhere else. Fans
       | tend to distinguish them by the cover art: there 's "Car",
       | "Scratch", "Melt", and "Security".
        
         | dehrmann wrote:
         | Weezer's self-titled albums are distinguished by background
         | color of the cover art.
        
         | sharph wrote:
         | It's worse than that, they were self-titled. So if there were
         | some mechanism for numbering untitled albums, it can break
         | down.
        
         | kingcharles wrote:
         | LOL. I used to work for PG. I created a schema for storing
         | music metadata for him, so it's somewhat ironic.
        
       | eschneider wrote:
       | And for new bands: Maybe try not to name yourself after a
       | Siri/Alexa/Whatever revered word. Jus try asking Siri to play a
       | song by "Them." Ugh.
        
         | rzzzt wrote:
         | "The The" is my go-to example!
        
           | tinus_hn wrote:
           | It's a very ingenious and effective anti-piracy measure!
        
       | philjohn wrote:
       | Similar problems when dealing with books.
       | 
       | J.K. Rowling has written works under other names, e.g. Newt
       | Scamander.
       | 
       | And then you have the case of the (actually recorded this way by
       | the Library of Congress) author "Mark Twain (ghost, through
       | mediumship)"
        
       | eyelidlessness wrote:
       | I was all geared up for a "misconceptions software developers
       | have about _" post but this seems mostly like ... Unicode exists
       | and data modeling should at least comprehend the domain?
        
         | jandrese wrote:
         | Or really: Natural Language Processing still sucks. Trying to
         | fit anything human produced into a reasonable data model is
         | doomed to failure.
        
       | quickthrower2 wrote:
       | No mention of Prince?
        
         | nocman wrote:
         | You mean "The artist formerly known as the artist formerly
         | known as Prince"?
         | 
         | :-D
        
       | moogly wrote:
       | Adding to the list:
       | 
       | There are two well-known Avishai Cohens, both jazz musicians (so
       | you can't disambiguate on the broader genre), both from Israel
       | (so you can't disambiguate on country of origin), but luckily
       | they do play different instruments (bass and trumpet).
       | 
       | ---
       | 
       | The Australian post-rock/shoegazeish band The Dead Sea
       | https://www.discogs.com/artist/1450625-The-Dead-Sea released a
       | self-titled EP with 3 tracks in 2006.
       | 
       | 2009 they released a full self-titled album (only 1 song from the
       | EP featured on it).
       | 
       | I can't even find the "second" release on discogs.
       | 
       | Both were self-released, so no way to disambiguate on ISMN or
       | record label/publisher.
       | 
       | So you'd have to disambiguate only on the year of release, or
       | define what demarcates an EP from a full album and mark them as
       | such (there are some competing definitions out there, since it
       | became less clear after the introduction of the CD, and now
       | digital, but even back then you had complections like maxi
       | singles and mini-LPs, IIRC).
       | 
       | ---
       | 
       | Many of John Zorn's releases tend to be headaches:
       | 
       | "Tap"
       | 
       | Composed and produced by: John Zorn
       | 
       | Performed by: Pat Metheny
       | 
       | Subtitle "Book of Angels, vol. 20"
       | 
       | Overarching series "Masada Book 2"
       | 
       | Released on Tzadik (Zorn's personal label) as a John Zorn/Pat
       | Metheny output.
       | 
       | Licensed to Nonesuch (Metheny's label) as a Pat Metheny release
       | with different cover.
        
         | slothtrop wrote:
         | You also can't find Zorn's music streaming anywhere. I've heard
         | of one store that offered digital purchases, but not for the
         | whole discography.
         | 
         | You can fill a large closet collecting just his stuff so I'm
         | not sure why digital is off the table.
        
         | adrianmonk wrote:
         | > _There are two well-known Avishai Cohens, both jazz musicians
         | (so you can 't disambiguate on the broader genre), both from
         | Israel (so you can't disambiguate on country of origin), but
         | luckily they do play different instruments (bass and trumpet)._
         | 
         | Along very similar lines, there are also famously two musicians
         | named Bill Evans. Both play jazz (genre) and both are from the
         | US (country). As a bonus, both have been members of bands led
         | by Miles Davis. And again you can differentiate them by
         | instrument (piano and saxophone).
         | 
         | Which is sort of what Wikipedia article titles do to
         | differentiate them:
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Evans
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Evans_%28saxophonist%29
         | 
         | I guess Wikipedia also differentiates by level of fame, since
         | the pianist article title doesn't have a qualifier.
        
       | DonaldFisk wrote:
       | I've noticed some of these for years. When designing a music
       | database, you do need to be aware of them. You need to use unique
       | identifiers instead of names. last.fm doesn't do this.
       | 
       | There were four bands called Kaleidoscope, all active around the
       | same time: one from England, one from Mexico, one from the USA,
       | and one from Canada. To disambiguate them, generally the country
       | is specified, e.g. Kaleidoscope (UK).
       | 
       | There were two bands called Bulldog Breed, both of which recorded
       | albums called Made in England. They're decades apart, but as
       | albums can be re-released, they're normally disambiguated by
       | record label, e.g. Bulldog Breed: Made in England (Deram).
       | 
       | There are two Nirvanas, the original UK-based band, and the US
       | one. The UK Nirvana recorded a cover of Lithium.
       | 
       | You'll be aware that the Beatles recorded an album called
       | Revolver. A Russian band, called Revolver, recorded an album
       | called Beatles.
       | 
       | Do you include the definite article in the band's name? If so,
       | what about The The?
       | 
       | Tintern Abbey released a single single, the A-side of which was
       | called Beeside.
        
         | mauvehaus wrote:
         | I've always thought it'd be a bit cheeky to start a band and
         | name the first three albums "Self-Titled", "Eponymous"[0], and
         | give the third album the name of the band.
         | 
         | Fortunately, I lack any amount of musical talent, so this will
         | never happen.
         | 
         | [0] I know, REM beat me to it.
        
         | cpeterso wrote:
         | > Do you include the definite article in the band's name? If
         | so, what about The The?
         | 
         | My SiriusXM radio omits leading articles like "The", so "The
         | Beatles" is displayed as "Beatles". I alway long wondered how
         | it would display "The The". Would it be "The", empty string "",
         | "The The", or something else entirely. I eventually learned the
         | answer: "The The". Which is good, but then made me frustrated
         | that it wouldn't allow the "The Beatles" to be "The Beatles".
        
       | egypturnash wrote:
       | I am amused that despite mentioning both Keygen Church and Master
       | Boot Record, this list refrains from mentioning that the former
       | is a side project of the latter.
       | 
       | And, yeah, if I was still collecting my music as CDs? Keygen
       | Church would be filed next to the MBR because of that, not over
       | in the Ks.
        
       | hamstergene wrote:
       | Electronic music is also full of remixes, for example:
       | 
       | Artist: Moby
       | 
       | Title: Simple Love (B-Motion Remix)
       | 
       | The actual artist is B-Motion and any kind of browser/catalog
       | must group this track with other B-Motion music, or in worst case
       | both, because remixes are in entirely different genres than the
       | original.
       | 
       | So "Artist" is not necessarily the artist.
        
       | xenadu02 wrote:
       | Another famous one is Prince's "Love Symbol no 2".
       | 
       | Fun fact: he adopted it as his stage name to spite Warner
       | Brothers Music, due to the unfavorable contract terms and the
       | creative meddling they kept doing (among other things). By terms
       | of the contract they had to go along with whatever stage name he
       | picked. They had to spend a bunch of money having a custom font
       | created, then mailed on floppy disk to every music reviewer,
       | newspaper, magazine, radio station, etc as part of album
       | promotion. No one was on the internet in those days so it ended
       | up causing them a lot of trouble. I guess he found his own
       | loophole in the contract.
        
       | gorgoiler wrote:
       | Catalogue numbers!
       | 
       | You wouldn't index a collection of records by the shape of its
       | sonic wave forms, would you?
       | 
       | No more would you index by the artistic representations on the
       | cover which, as we have seen, includes everything including the
       | words purporting to be the artist name and the title of the
       | release.
       | 
       | No, of course not! You use the barcode on the back!
       | 
       | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalog_number_(music)
       | 
       | For white labels, I guess you have to hide them in a pile until
       | they get a release.
        
       | recursive wrote:
       | I was hoping this was going to be about the musical part of music
       | rather than the book keeping.
        
         | cratermoon wrote:
         | I was hoping it was going to be about music engraving. See e.g.
         | https://twitter.com/ThreatNotation
        
       | Lammy wrote:
       | > Most albums have several versions/releases
       | 
       | And some times they're altered without any obviously-visible
       | indication like differing number of tracks or "edition" naming,
       | e.g.:
       | 
       | - MM..FOOD? (2004) [RSE0051-2] where "Kookies" samples Sesame
       | Street: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RYCLfGE-_Q
       | 
       | - MM..FOOD? (2007) [RSE0084-2] where "Kookies" is totally re-
       | recorded with a different and non-infringing beat:
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iYSwvdEfeY
       | 
       | If you use a streaming service you're hearing the latter and
       | might not ever realize the former existed. The re-record is a
       | fine song, but the original fits much better with the rest of the
       | album.
        
         | dotancohen wrote:
         | This is my problem with Rust in Peace. It was a terrific album,
         | but Dave didn't want to continue paying royalties to people he
         | no longer likes. So in 2004 or so almost the whole album was
         | rerecorded with studio musicians. It is horrible, mechanical,
         | flat. Even some of the vocals were redone, poorly.
         | 
         | I'll sign up for the streaming service that provides the
         | original 1990 Rust in Peace.
        
           | scns wrote:
           | Is that the album where they blew the advance on drugs and
           | had none left for good mixing and mastering?
        
             | dotancohen wrote:
             | That was Killing is my Business I think. Dave remastered
             | that one too, which is actually not bad, but some things
             | were changed and due to copyright he had to leave off the
             | Nancy Sinatra song.
             | 
             | I'd love a version of Killing is my Business with the
             | remastered content were it is identical to the original,
             | but with none of the content or artistic changes. Something
             | like the despecialized Star Wars videos.
        
           | slothtrop wrote:
           | Yeah that was particularly obnoxious. According to
           | discogs.com I think there are more recent reissues/remasters
           | of the original version.
        
             | dotancohen wrote:
             | The discogs javascript is not playing nice with the current
             | Firefox. I'm specifically referring to the "Show more
             | versions..." control.
             | 
             | OK, found it! It seems that the desirable keyword is
             | "Reissue" and specifically to avoid the keyword "Remaster".
             | There was at least a Reissued but not Remastered LP in
             | 2013. Maybe more, but that javascript is horrible!
        
               | slothtrop wrote:
               | I had the same problem earlier. Definitely a bug they
               | recently introduced. It was easier sifting through
               | sorting by year descending.
        
         | kzrdude wrote:
         | This annoys me in Spotify so much, that we often only get one
         | version of the album, and usually a new one instead of the
         | original.
         | 
         | And maybe I should feel like it's a luxury to have extra bonus
         | tracks with more takes at the end - but I lean over to the
         | album purity side more - the album is one artwork by itself, I
         | want the original track listing and nothing more, as "the
         | album".
        
         | iggldiggl wrote:
         | > If you use a streaming service you're hearing the latter and
         | might not ever realize the former existed.
         | 
         | On a number of live Bob Dylan albums, for inexplicable reasons
         | all online versions (not just streaming, but the download
         | releaes, too) are now missing the between-tracks content that
         | on the physical CDs is part of the pregap, which means you're
         | missing out on the funny stage banter on the 1964 Halloween
         | concert, or the infamous heckling on the electric half of the
         | 1966 Manchester concert.
        
       | rcthompson wrote:
       | AC/DC is another edge case I've seen, mainly because in some
       | contexts slashes are used as separators between multiple artists,
       | so "AC/DC" could be misinterpreted as a list of 2 artists named
       | "AC" and "DC".
        
         | amelius wrote:
         | Doesn't work well in filenames either.
        
           | SAI_Peregrinus wrote:
           | "/This name iss a valid POSIX path" is my display name on
           | some services at my job. It helps to remind people to
           | consider things like spaces, homoglyph attacks, and non-ASCII
           | characters.
        
       | can16358p wrote:
       | What is the deal with Japanese exclusive bonus tracks/promo
       | thing?
       | 
       | Interested about why a significant number of albums have Japanese
       | promo versions with extra tracks. Is that a cultural thing about
       | Japan or is there another specific reason? (I know it's not only
       | Japan but mostly Japanese editions that I see throughout the web)
       | 
       | As if, almost even brouillard has a Japanese bonus track named
       | brouillard in their album brouillard.
        
         | Hamuko wrote:
         | I heard somewhere that it was an incentive for the Japanese
         | market, which still today is a large physical CD market, to buy
         | the locally distributed releases of albums instead of just
         | buying the original foreign release, which may have been
         | available earlier and for cheaper, or if they already bought
         | the original release, buy it again.
        
           | dotancohen wrote:
           | Is this why the super-high quality vinyls were also available
           | only in Japan? I cannot remember the name of the company, but
           | there is (was) some company selling increased dynamic range
           | recordings of popular albums, on very durable (as in,
           | regularly replace the needle) vinyl. I had heard an imported
           | (from Japan) Dark Side of the Moon recording on that once,
           | and it just blew me away.
        
             | Hamuko wrote:
             | I imagine the super-high quality vinyls are because of a
             | very special breed of Japanese audiophiles who don't mind
             | spending on their hobby.
             | 
             | https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-gift-for-music-lovers-who-
             | hav...
        
               | dotancohen wrote:
               | I was likely wrong, it wasn't a Japanese company. This is
               | most likely the company that produced the high-quality
               | recording that I heard:
               | 
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_Fidelity_Sound_Lab
        
         | scns wrote:
         | I once read somehere that CDs are expensive when new, can't
         | confirm though. When i was there i bought them used for cheap.
         | Slayers' Hell Awaits, colored like egg yolk ~6EUR IIRC, thank
         | you very much.
        
       | parenthesis wrote:
       | I was searching for the artist Urban Soul on Tidal to discover
       | there's another artist called Urban Soul (I wanted the Roland
       | Clark project) with albums by both mixed up together in the
       | search result.
       | 
       | 'Twas all in vain, since I wanted a particular remix of `Alright'
       | -- which I have on a vinyl promo less that a metre from where I
       | am sitting (I can remember clear as day buying it more than 25
       | years ago) -- which Tidal don't have. So I ended up listening to
       | it on YouTube.
        
       | vermooten wrote:
       | Don't forget how much streaming services struggle with classical
       | music meta data.
        
       | throwaway384813 wrote:
       | Bookmarking this for future reference!
       | 
       | I recently started a fun/side project which aims to improve my
       | personal tedious process of (a) managing a queue of things I want
       | to listen to, (b) keeping track of which of them I listened/liked
       | and (c) easily sharing my "discovery activity" with my friends
       | who share the same passion.
       | 
       | The idea is that you can add items to a "Queue" list, using
       | Discogs Master URLs (e.g.
       | https://www.discogs.com/master/1994809-Alt%C4%B1n-G%C3%BCn-Y...)
       | or Spotify album links, because this is what I use in my day to
       | day.
       | 
       | So I've started by parsing Discogs' data dumps[1] to backfill my
       | database (aka. "release groups" in MusicBrainz), so that I avoid
       | hitting Discogs API with every user query) with all "master"
       | releases. But then realized that (a) they don't include cover
       | images and (b) not every release has a corresponding "master"
       | release and (c) they're not updated frequently enough (maybe
       | monthly).
       | 
       | Then I thought of using MusicBrainz data dumps[2] to augment the
       | entries by Discogs in my database, which do provide cover art
       | images, but then how do I correlate them with the already-
       | inserted Discogs releases? Fortunately there's a Discogs URL for
       | many release groups from MusicBrainz; unfortunately only 50% of
       | them do have it.
       | 
       | Then I could perhaps use solely MusicBrainz data and not Discogs
       | at all, but then what if people are mostly using Discogs links?
       | This will result in two identical records on my database,
       | pointing to the same underlying release but in different sites
       | (Discogs & MusicBrainz). Perhaps this can only be solved by human
       | moderation and providing the ability to "merge two items".
       | 
       | Then I thought of actually contributing to MusicBrainz and add
       | the Discogs URL for every release group.
       | 
       | Another interesting assumption I made, which turned out
       | incorrect, was the every [artist, release title] pair was unique.
       | But that's not the case - an artist may have multiple "master"
       | releases (i.e. completely different tracks inside) with the same
       | title.
       | 
       | [1] http://data.discogs.com/
       | 
       | [2] https://musicbrainz.org/doc/MusicBrainz_Database
        
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