[HN Gopher] Albini pitching Nirvana: "I would like to be paid li...
___________________________________________________________________
Albini pitching Nirvana: "I would like to be paid like a plumber"
(1992)
Author : sanj
Score : 324 points
Date : 2022-04-02 22:06 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (news.lettersofnote.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (news.lettersofnote.com)
| shaunxcode wrote:
| And to be clear a perfect record was born.
| [deleted]
| tptacek wrote:
| Nevermind is the better Nirvana album.
| WaxedChewbacca wrote:
| Synaesthesia wrote:
| Nevermind and In Utero are both 5 star albums, as is the MTV
| Live unplugged. Which one is "superior" is a matter of
| opinion.
| tptacek wrote:
| Pretty sure the "matter of opinion" bit is implied in a
| comment like that. If you need it clarified, no, I have
| neither empirically demonstrated nor formally proven that
| Nevermind is a better Nirvana album than In Utero. I merely
| know it to be the case. :)
| whiddershins wrote:
| Strong disagree.
|
| For me Nevermind is more pop.
| tptacek wrote:
| Which is to say, it sounds better. And it should: Nevermind
| was a much more deliberate, planned, and practiced album.
| The band was at each others throats by the time In Utero
| wound up, and it shows. In Utero is dark and brooding,
| which is why people say they prefer it, but it's also
| grating and one-note. With apologies to James Spader, it's
| noise rock for people who don't like noise rock, and indie
| pop for people who don't like indie pop.
|
| Nevermind is also clearly the more influential of the two
| albums. Zillions of bands have tried to make albums that
| sound like Nevermind. In Utero? Maybe Neutral Milk Hotel?
| And they did it better!
|
| I remember something Jim DeRogatis said about Big Black on
| Sound Opinions back when it was on WKQX, something about
| how Albini was an interesting artist with lots to say but
| that his albums were really unpleasant to listen to. That's
| In Utero for me. As an edgy teen? Loved it. Today? I can
| barely get through it. 7.4/10.0.
|
| Part of it is that as a 90s kid who owned a couple of Big
| Black albums, I listened to a lot of albums just because
| Albini recorded them; In Utero is not the most interesting
| affect he had on a band.
|
| "Frances Farmer Will Have Her Revenge On Seattle" is,
| however, the best Nirvana song.
| whiddershins wrote:
| I think what I like about In Utero (a record I didn't
| particularly care for way back when) is that it literally
| sounds to me like the colors of the album cover.
|
| Heart Shaped Box is probably my favorite Nirvana song by
| a wide margin.
|
| I feel like this is Hard Days Night vs The White Album
| (aka The Beatles)
|
| Which is more influential? Which is better? Which is more
| real?
|
| Edit: Which one is more like "Bleach" ... which one
| caused Metallica to try downtuning their guitars?
| [deleted]
| dalbasal wrote:
| Interesting! I know those albums and the era better than any
| (teenage years), so it's fascinating hearing behind the scenes.
|
| I think a lot of what made that era productive was a peaking of
| tension between slick commercial music and grittier,
| "underground" sounds and themes. Ozzy & Black Sabbath went from
| shocking to mainstream. Punk became a main street cafe aesthetic.
|
| In the 90s, after the grunge explosion, "underground" was
| ironically mainstream and that contradiction resulted in some
| terrific albums.
|
| Nirvana and Kurt certainly traded in this tension.
|
| My favourite example is rage against the machine. Extremely
| dissident sound and vibe. I think they recorded very raw.
|
| But, they still achieved pop music ideals. Ratm songs are catchy
| and iconic in exactly the same way a Michael Jackson song is. You
| start tapping your pencil to it from the first note.
| cityzen wrote:
| Love the shout out to the Jerky Boys
| chrissnell wrote:
| Hahaha, I came to say the same thing. It's an obscure line
| ("I'll wrap your head in with a ratchet!") but anybody who ever
| heard it will instantly recall this Frank Rizzo classic. I
| wonder if the Nirvana guys got a chuckle or just read it
| quizzically.
| mattl wrote:
| Pablo honey?
| vlunkr wrote:
| If you're not familiar with Albini, he's worked lots of great
| bands. Pixies of course, The Jesus Lizard, Mclusky, his own band
| Shellac to name a few. Nirvana was good, but they've come to
| overshadow the really great music scene they emerged from.
|
| It's too bad his work with Fugazi didn't work out. Apparently the
| band and Albini decided they both didn't like and they re-
| recorded it at another studio.
| danieldk wrote:
| The Albini mix of (parts of) In on the Kill Taker are on
| Youtube, but I must admit I found listening to the mix very
| tiring. The final album is splendid though.
| vlunkr wrote:
| Agreed, I wouldn't have that album any other way, but it
| would have been interesting to hear them complete a project
| together.
| vba616 wrote:
| I was never _that_ crazy about Jesus Lizard, but I never
| understood why Nirvana and not them, relatively speaking.
|
| I liked Goat, Liar, and Down better than Shot, which seems to
| correlate with Albini producing only the first three.
| samfriedman wrote:
| He also did Jason Molina's Magnolia Electric Co., an amazingly
| recorded and engineered record that I think accomplishes his
| idea of "capturing the band's music and existence" as he
| describes in the letter.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| His work on The Wedding Present's "Seamonsters" is the one that
| stands out to me from that time.
| deadbyte wrote:
| Incredible album
| 01100011 wrote:
| Don't forget Big Black. I can't find the words to describe what
| listening to that was like in the 80s as a young computer
| hacker. To me, it's like shoving a couple William Gibson novels
| into my eardrums. It is harsh, loud, sterile, ethereal,
| haunting, electric and beautiful.
| Beltalowda wrote:
| There's a 90s MTV interview with Alibini and the rest of
| Shellac on YouTube (back when there was still music on MTV),
| and he jokingly complained how their concerts never attracted
| hot chicks but just computer programmers and the like :-)
| quickthrowman wrote:
| Women don't like Shellac because Steve Albini wears his
| guitar as a belt, true story.
|
| My March 2020 Shellac tickets are finally going to be used
| in May, I'm excited!
| bredren wrote:
| Albini also worked on Joanna Newsom's Ys.
| aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA wrote:
| Wow, I didn't know that.
| flobosg wrote:
| If you like Albini's writing you might be interested in the
| cooking blog he penned for a while some years ago:
| https://web.archive.org/web/20180125095923/http://whatimadeh...
| funstuff007 wrote:
| What I find interesting is the sweating over the details in a
| recording studio, and then people go to see the band lives and
| you lose a large chunk of what they've been haggling over due to
| irreproducibility.
| CharlesW wrote:
| Those are very different things -- one is a studio movie, one
| is Broadway play. Both can be appreciated through their own
| lenses.
| vikingcaffiene wrote:
| I'm not sure a lot people know that Albini ended up washing his
| hands of his work with Nirvana. After the recordings were wrapped
| and the mixes were done, Kurt was really unhappy with some of the
| sounds. If memory serves it was the vocals and the bass. They
| ended up doing some overdubs and sharpening things up in the low
| end in mastering. The very thing Albini specifically said he
| didn't want them to do. I personally think the results speak for
| themselves. In Utero is a FANTASTIC rock record. I can't help but
| wonder what the original would have sounded like though...
| vba616 wrote:
| >Kurt was really unhappy with some of the sounds
|
| I think I read somewhere that P.J. Harvey wasn't happy with the
| way "Rid of Me" came out - but I thought it was incredible and
| nothing afterwards really compares.
| MrScruff wrote:
| Hmm, I've read the opposite.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rid_of_Me#Recording
| moomin wrote:
| I think the confusion stems from the existence of "4-Track
| Demos", but in practice Albini really liked the original
| demos and encouraged Harvey to turn them into an album.
|
| My only real complaint about the production on "Rid of Me"
| is the obnoxious volume shifts on the title track and
| "Highway 61 Revisited" which seem to neither reflect what
| the live performances sounded like nor accommodate home
| listening.
| MrScruff wrote:
| I think that's subjective. It probably doesn't sound like
| a live performance would, but it does probably reflect
| fairly well what you'd hear if you were in the room with
| them rehearsing.
|
| Listening to the album again now it's such a relief to
| hear a recording with such dynamic range, not the
| appallingly over-compressed loudness wars derived style
| we're subjected to now.
| thom wrote:
| Oh man, I just find the title track absolutely thrilling,
| my whole body is tense building up to the chorus, partly
| because it's so extreme. And it doesn't seem
| unrepresentative of what she was _trying_ to achieve - I
| don't know many other performers who use breaths and
| whispers as artfully as she does. I think it's just hard
| to achieve such extremes as part of a wider live set.
| MrScruff wrote:
| Yeah, on stage you're fighting with adrenaline, shitty
| monitoring, screaming audiences and it's usually a pale
| imitation of what happens during jamming/rehearsing where
| you actually develop the songs.
| jollybean wrote:
| I don't like In Untero compared to Nevermind, it feels a smidge
| too overproduced and less raw. I really wonder what it would
| have sounded like were it to have been the same producer.
| jghn wrote:
| Huh. It's funny as I always had the opposite thought. To me
| Nevermind sounds too polished and clean. When In Utero came
| out I remember being excited that it brought out a more raw
| sound that I felt they had lost. Different strokes and all
| that.
| vlunkr wrote:
| He worked on the 2013 remaster. Doesn't really seem like he
| washed his hands of it.
| discordance wrote:
| Funny that... "I do not like remixing other engineer's
| recordings, and I do not like recording things for somebody
| else to remix. I have never been satisfied with either
| version of that methodology. Remixing is for talentless
| pussies who don't know how to tune a drum or point a
| microphone."
| toyg wrote:
| Albini, like many greats of rock & roll, should always be
| taken with a massive grain of salt when he speaks. In the
| end they'll always go where the money is.
| copperx wrote:
| Not true. Also, he didn't remix anything. They just
| published his unreleased mixes.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| Wouldn't the remaster have been primarily his recordings?
| throwaway095209 wrote:
| toyg wrote:
| _> In Utero is a FANTASTIC rock record_
|
| Mh. As a teenager at the time, I always thought Nevermind was
| the real deal. Then the whole media phenomenon took over, so In
| Utero could have been shite and still sell bazillions - it was
| promoted massively. That's not to say it was shite, but IMHO it
| wasn't as perfect as Nevermind.
| lastdong wrote:
| I recommend Incesticide as one of the hidden raw gems. The
| whole Nirvana discography is strong (maybe the mellow MTV
| Unplugged hits a different tone).
| strunz wrote:
| Not surprising considering Nevermind is one of the best
| sounding albums of all time. I personally give Butch Vig a
| large part of the. refit for getting the best out of the band
| and really making an incredible album. Hard to believe it's the
| same band as Bleach.
| ilamont wrote:
| I think Bleach was amazing. I remember exactly where I was
| when I heard it first, Newbury Comics in Harvard Square in
| 1989, and I had to ask the staff what was playing in the
| store PA because it was so visceral. What was the recording
| budget, $600 or something?
| prionassembly wrote:
| > of all time
|
| This is a little extreme. "Teen spirit", "Come as you are",
| "Lithium" are great, but "On a plain" and other heavier
| numbers are jarringly plasticky.
| Optimal_Persona wrote:
| As the mixer of "Nevermind", Andy Wallace deserves a lot of
| credit for the finished sound. Both Vig and the band weren't
| crazy about Vig's initial mixes. Between Nevermind and
| producing/engineering/mixing Jeff Buckley's "Grace", Andy
| Wallace did as much to define of '90s rock as anyone else,
| and has done phenomenal work before and since.
| wsc981 wrote:
| Jeff Buckley's Grace is an awesome album, much recommended
| if people haven't heard it yet.
| Jgrubb wrote:
| I never pass up an opportunity to point out that his
| version of Hallelujah from that album is THE canonical
| version.
|
| I'm sure it was covered by others before that, but his
| was the first version I ever heard and of the million
| versions I've heard since there's not a single one that
| comes anywhere close. And the way it and the next song go
| together are the definition of a centerpiece.
|
| It's one of the great albums and I can't believe how much
| we lost because he decided to go swimming at night in a
| river. I also can't believe the same dude mixed
| Nevermind. Cheers.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Butch Vig had such a large influence in my life as a
| teenager. For those that never paid attention to the liner
| notes/credits on their music, Butch was a producer on so so
| many bands.
| acjohnson55 wrote:
| Plus, he's in Garbage, a great band in its own right, with
| an amazing sound. Vig defines the post-grunge sound that
| took over rock in the 90s: powerful choruses, vocals up
| front, tight production. Very different from the garage
| sound of proper grunge.
| pipeline_peak wrote:
| You ask for Mr Slint to record your lp, you get a lo fi lp.
|
| I know Kurt liked the Pixies, but after something as high end
| as Nevermind, who knows what he was looking for.
| rdiddly wrote:
| The irony of your calling him Mr. Slint is that the GOOD
| Slint album was done by someone else.
| stevewillows wrote:
| You can find his mixes on Nirvana's youtube channel --- Heart
| Shaped Box [1]
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9pwGlgQz2E
| jhap wrote:
| Can someone with more experience help me recognize the
| differences between this version and the released version?
| I'm having trouble hearing them.
| stevewillows wrote:
| You might like this video --
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6Gp8up3l8Y
| gregsadetsky wrote:
| Thank you so much for posting this
| hluska wrote:
| First off, that's cool too!!
|
| If you want to get into it, start by putting the released
| version on repeat and listen to it a few times in a row. To
| start, focus on Kurt Cobain's voice, specifically where it
| 'sits' in the mix. Then, switch to Steve Albini's version.
|
| When I hear Steve Albini's version, Kurt Cobain's voice is
| less pronounced. What do you think??
|
| If that helps, I can point out more differences. Or, maybe
| you can point out some you hear?
| mixedbit wrote:
| If you are using laptop speakers you may heave troubles
| hearing any difference, try headphones instead.
| parenthesis wrote:
| To me the differences matter much less than the fact that
| after about a minute and a half you've basically heard the
| whole song, and then I just get bored.
|
| Which is funny, as there are many very repetitive tracks I
| like with long running times which never bore me. (Random
| example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXbdzLgwME0 .)
| raverbashing wrote:
| Interesting. There are definitely interesting aspects but the
| volume gating(?) on the start of the chorus are a No-no for
| me
|
| It definitely feel more "indie" but not 100% in a good way
| for me.
| ch4s3 wrote:
| I can't put my finger on it but that just sounds wrong to me.
| stevewillows wrote:
| Its tough to listen to a different mix when we've been
| enjoying the original for over 25 years. This video [1]
| compares them, but I'm with you with it sounding off. In
| Heart Shaped Box, the effect around 2m53s[2] is too jarring
| compared to the final mix we got.
|
| I might be wrong, but I've always felt like Albini's aim to
| sound like you're in the room with the band, where the
| drums boom and the vocals are quieter.
|
| [1] https://youtu.be/W6Gp8up3l8Y [2]
| https://youtu.be/F9pwGlgQz2E?t=173
| keeglin wrote:
| I agree with this, but I like the Albini version. My
| first listen to this track (in a long time since hearing
| the other version) the vocal is centered with good
| imaging, and is much less boomy than the original CD
| version.
|
| Very much like it's a person in a room, instead of
| processed.
|
| It is far less "in your face", and arguably, teenagers
| then might not have thought it cool. Like a band from the
| 70's or 80's.
| ethbr0 wrote:
| Will have to listen through good headphones tomorrow. My
| initial impression is also that I like Albini's version
| more, but I understand why the song became famous from
| the final mix.
|
| Albini's does lack that separation that differentiated
| the remixed songs from contemporary and then recent punk
| and "always-on" grudge imho.
| acjohnson55 wrote:
| I listened to Smells Like Teen Spirit at a listening
| station at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame 20 years ago
| and the in-your-faceness blew me away. It was like
| hearing it for the first time again. I get why that
| record changed the game.
| donw wrote:
| I think that stands out from his letter as well. Albini
| sounds really into the live experience of music, and
| wants to replicate that as faithfully as possible.
|
| As a total aside: Albini's attitude and writing is a
| breath of fresh air in today's world polluted by
| corporate backstabbery and doublespeak. Albini is a
| professional. He says what he thinks, wants do his work
| and make his money, and doesn't try and lay claim to the
| entire future legacy of the band because he's good at
| slinging electrons around a board.
| sfteus wrote:
| Been a while since I've done anything related to audio
| engineering so my terminology might not be correct, but
| I've always heard this described as presence. Stems from
| old guitar amps that had presence knobs that would dump
| highs to ground to give a darker, slightly muffled sound.
|
| Like you said, it's the difference between it sounding
| like you're in a small room with a band or in a large
| venue where some of the clarity is lost.
| turdnagel wrote:
| Kurt's vocals on the verses are panned left as if he's
| standing there. They're double-tracked on the album mix,
| which was a technique John Lennon used that Kurt admired.
| The reverb really sounds like a room. Guitars are
| definitely overdubbed on the final mix with the distortion
| cranked up, rather than sounding like one gentler guitar. I
| would say the bass seems not quiet but like it's "hiding"
| behind the guitars - it's not cutting through the mix the
| way it does on the album version. Seems to be a different
| guitar take for the solo - there's a pretty noticeable wah-
| wah effect on the guitar solo in Albini's mix.
|
| Overall Albini's mix sounds much more live, which is
| exactly what he had in mind before he recorded with the
| band. The final mix is compressed, balanced, radio-
| friendly: it sounds more like it could fit on Nevermind
| than some of the other songs on In Utero.
| ch4s3 wrote:
| Left Kurt is the most noticeably odd thing with
| headphones, it just feels too much like he's right off to
| my side. It's just not the sound of the band in my head.
| The bass is noticeably different too, but doesn't feel as
| wrong against my head cannon of their sound.
| pmarreck wrote:
| https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=headcanon
| ch4s3 wrote:
| In my head Kurt has a sound and presence that doesn't
| necessarily match the whole body of their work, but makes
| sense to me when I think about their songs.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Other than Tool where Maynard removes himself from center
| of attention, I've never seen a live rock band where the
| singer was off to the left. Typically, lead guitarist on
| the left, singer in the middle, bass is on the right, and
| drummer in the middle back stage of the singer. If the
| idea was to make it as close to live as possible, why the
| decision to put Kurt over there?
| blenderdt wrote:
| I've seen a lot (Tool included).
|
| Deerhoof for example has the drummer right front.
| xanaxagoras wrote:
| I'm not sure about the decision to put Kurt over there
| but I assume it's no coincidence that Albini's own band
| Shellac (who are amazing) literally puts the drummer
| front and center:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i79f87C0M1c
| heavenlyblue wrote:
| Don't singers sing through the microphone so their voice
| is coming from where the speakers are directed towards?
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| Cobain was both lead vocals and lead guitar.
| [deleted]
| agumonkey wrote:
| Impressive, it's a lot heavier and ~indie. Strange to revisit
| these times.
| stevewillows wrote:
| if you like a less polished sound, you should tuck into the
| Nirvana demos [1]. Back in the day it was really difficult
| to acquire these things (mainly trading or buying CDRs
| later on).
|
| Nirvana is an excellent rabbit hole band, though. There are
| plenty of b-sides, bootlegs, demos, technically unreleased
| tracks, compilations, etc etc. They've released box sets
| that have pretty much everything besides the live bootlegs.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoBcTBkNp94
| agumonkey wrote:
| I'm not sure I prefer Albini's mix, I'm still missing the
| released (commercial) mix. Somehow I find albini's
| version too toyed with (some instruments pops out at
| times). And the demo you linked is closer to the final
| version in that regard, sounds more like Nirvana to me.
| Thanks for the link, I had no idea these were online.
|
| In a totally other genre, Michael Jackson Thriller vocal
| studo outtakes are breathtaking.
| StopTheWorld wrote:
| Pixies Nirvana
| keeglin wrote:
| Thank you for this! That just brightened my evening. It's
| sounding _incredible_.
| MrScruff wrote:
| Oh that's cool! I remember hearing about this mix at the time
| and wondering how it would sound. I much prefer it, way more
| in keeping with the indie 'live' vibe of the rest of the
| album and it feels darker/more menacing because of the
| greater contrast between the verses and chorus.
|
| I actually always felt the original track stood out (in a bad
| way) on the album and it's interesting to hear how much of
| that was introduced by the remix.
|
| The recording style Albini uses here was also in evidence
| with another classic rock album he references here, PJ
| Harvey's 'Rid of Me'.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVeP-AHFk-s
|
| Some people (eg. Elvis Costello) hate this 'naturalistic'
| style, but I think the overproduced style that dominates
| radio often strips tracks of their personality.
| Exmoor wrote:
| There are Albini rough mixes out there. Not sure where to
| suggest looking for them (phone posting), but I no imagine
| they're not too hard to find.
| daydream wrote:
| In addition to bootlegs of the rough mixes you can also check
| out the official 20th anniversary vinyl reissue, remixed by
| Albini from the original masters.
| https://www.nirvana.com/album/in-utero-2013-mix-2lp/
| salmo wrote:
| They remixed the singles, really making them more "radio
| friendly". Compressed, polished, and out of whack with the un-
| remixed "lesser" tracks.
|
| The punk folks around Nirvana were surprised with how pliable
| they were with Geffen. Albini was pissed and wanted his name
| off of it.
|
| He wasn't easy to work with. Abrasive, rude, rigidly
| principled. He's mellowed out with age, but really hasn't
| touched much major label stuff since the 90s, if any.
|
| If you listen to the original mixes on the reissue you hear how
| much more consistent it feels as an album. And I won't lie. I
| have a bias. I love the quality of Albini's work. Crisp and raw
| and uses the whole spectrum. And those drums...
|
| Jesus Lizard, early Pixies, this album, PJ Harvey's Rid of Me
| are more well known work he's done that is great. Bush was
| awful. His band Shellac w/ the mentioned Bob Weston is f'n
| incredible.
|
| These days, he works a super reasonable flat rate and will
| record anyone. Had friends who recorded at his Chicago studio.
| Brilliant guy.
| Kaibeezy wrote:
| Hero.
|
| What does "in the courtyard" mean?
| CPLX wrote:
| Almost
| viscanti wrote:
| In the middle.
| pimlottc wrote:
| In the ballpark
| copperx wrote:
| Knowing Albini is a baseball fan, you know it's a deliberate
| choice of words. I don't know why, though.
| Q6T46nT668w6i3m wrote:
| In-between
| icambron wrote:
| He had me until the money part. Don't be like this; capture the
| value you add or someone else will.
|
| You'll be forever in debt to my priceless advice.
| matwood wrote:
| He's not doing it for free. He has a flat rate to do a certain
| job. I'm guessing his fee wasn't exactly low for a week of work
| either (50-100k+?). It removes ambiguity and sounds like a
| method that kept him quite busy at the time.
|
| I'm watching the Kanye doc on Netflix right now and there is a
| discussion where someone wanted him to give them beats for
| points. He responded hell no wanted his fee (30-50k) instead.
| Not every person he worked with was JayZ, so getting paid well
| up front was a way to remove risk.
| atoav wrote:
| The money thing is simple here: A mixing engineer who gets
| royalties will no longer be able to 100% go for the bands
| vision, but rather for what they think the market likes. So it
| is a perverse incentive.
|
| If you are after maximizing the amount of money you earn rather
| than focus the creation of good work and/or art audio
| engineering might not be the right field for you anyways.
| Firstly because there is not a lot of money in it, secondly
| because there is not a lot of money in it for people who always
| priorize money over art.
| pawelmurias wrote:
| He is producing a mass market product not art for arts sake.
| In this case how much money the product makes directly and
| indirectly (future sells of other stuff in the brand) is the
| measure of it's artistic value.
| Synaesthesia wrote:
| That's not very punk rock of you.
| [deleted]
| Synaesthesia wrote:
| That's exactly where he won me over.
| xeromal wrote:
| I've gotten into a few arguments with friends over the years
| about this way of thinking. I've always felt the same way. I
| tend to undercharge my labor and sell things for cheaper than
| they should be according to people closest to me. I pay my
| subcontractors more than they should be apparently.
|
| I understand capturing as much value as possible, but that's
| not in the cards for me. I feel as long as I make enough
| money to be happy, that's ok. Everyone tells me I'm dumb so
| I'm probably hurting myself, but I really appreciate Albini's
| insistence not to take so much money.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| Other than a few technical details, most of it seems to me like
| DIY punk cliches and goes on much too long. But I guess they know
| the business better than I do, hired Albini, and made a hit
| record, if that's what they wanted.
|
| I though the sound on In Utero was too glossy. Listen to live
| Nirvana, including their official live album. Nothing in a
| studio, by anyone, can compare and with the live material
| available it has no reason to exist.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhYNe6yu0JM
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGc8jL4dzao
|
| Admit it - you were sleeping. Was it for years? Now you're awake
| again.
| CPLX wrote:
| The thing about cliches is that they only become that via
| repetition.
|
| For example at one point it wasn't a cliche to talk about Lord
| of the Rings characters over alternating bouts of English folk
| music and heavy rock. And then it was. But in the middle there
| was the part where people waited in line outside the record
| store and rushed home to get it on the turntable and had their
| minds blown.
|
| As someone who was around and actually working as a record
| producer in the same era this letter was written I feel
| confident saying that the ethos described here was in fact out
| of step with the mainstream approach to making rock and roll
| records. Doing things the way he's describing was in fact an
| "alternative" approach to coin a phrase.
|
| That it was rapidly becoming the mainstream at the time and
| eventually a cliche is also true. But I think it's fun to
| evaluate things in the relevant context, or you'll skip right
| from considering things obscure to overdone and miss the
| exhilarating part where something genuinely valuable and novel
| is gaining mass acceptance for the first time.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| As you knew the industry, I will take your word for it. Thank
| you for sharing some actual knowledge with us! I'd be
| interested in more if you are willing and have the time.
|
| Was Albini really an "engineer extraordinaire", like the
| introduction says? Why does live almost always sound better
| to me than studio, lacking the energy and creativity that
| make rock'n'roll great. Is it just me? For the most part, I
| stopped buying studio albums. Why wouldn't they just record
| Nirvana (or Bruce Springsteen or whoever) playing their new
| songs live?
| atoav wrote:
| Because just recording a band and expecting the result to
| sound like it sounded to the people in the room doesn't
| work for a heap of reasons.
|
| (I have been making my living as an audio engineer)
|
| One of those is, that live doesn't _actually_ sound good,
| it is just a good experience -- the people, the light, the
| atmosphere, you _went_ there and payed potentially a ton of
| money for it, you are a little drunk, it is loud, everybody
| who is there is in a good mood, it happens live in front of
| your eyes... In short: It sounds better than it actually
| sounds for psychological reasons.
|
| While this is not necessarily true for all genres of music
| equally, audio engineers still have to pull a ton of
| strings and jump through a bunch of hoops to recreate the
| energy people felt who were in the room. And sometimes it
| easier to do so in the studio where the band just plays for
| the recording and you don't have to compromise between
| coices that are good for a stage and choices that are good
| for a recording.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| > that live doesn't actually sound good, it is just a
| good experience -- the people, the light, the atmosphere,
| you went there and payed potentially a ton of money for
| it, you are a little drunk, it is loud, everybody who is
| there is in a good mood, it happens live in front of your
| eyes... In short: It sounds better than it actually
| sounds for psychological reasons.
|
| Certainly I've had this experience! But there are so many
| great live bootleg recordings, don't they seem like
| evidence that live music can sound fantastic (in the
| sense of music, not recording quality)? Listen to the
| Nirvana clips upthread.
|
| But thinking about it, I've forgotten that many, many
| bands are worse live than in a studio, and far more are
| no better live. The Rolling Stones stand out to me as a
| band known for legendary live concerts but who, if you
| hear the music only, play poorly. I love live music so I
| realize I have a very strong selection bias toward people
| who are fantastic live performers. Not everyone, or maybe
| nobody, is Nirvana.
| prpl wrote:
| > Doing things the way he's describing was in fact an
| "alternative" approach to coin a phrase.
|
| Grohl had been in a Dischord band and Kurt/Dave on Subpop
| with Kurt being great friends with Buzz Osborne (among so so
| so many other things in Seattle scene). I'm sure Steve knew
| that too. Different pedigrees, sure, but explaining an
| alternative approach would be speaking to the choir - so it
| was never a letter to Nirvana, more like a letter to Geffen.
| tptacek wrote:
| That's because the sound on In Utero wasn't really Albini's.
|
| He has a distinctive sound; there's a long list of artists
| who've had him do 1-2 records. Listen to Surfer Rosa and then
| Trompe Le Monde, or Pod and then Last Splash, or Rid Of Me and
| then the 4 Track Demos, where you get some of the same songs,
| even.
| throwaway095209 wrote:
| aklemm wrote:
| Those are simply superb
| strunz wrote:
| >Admit it - you were sleeping. Was it for years? Now you're
| awake again.
|
| Good lord. I love Nirvana but the differences between all these
| mixes are minor and barely noticeable unless you're swapping
| back and forth. Kurt would hate this shit.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| The differences aren't minor at all to me! They are
| everything - almost everything that makes Nirvana special,
| distinct, is at its peak, beyond any other musicians (that
| I've heard), beyond human capacity it seems, in the live
| performance and is only an idea in the studio music - which
| aren't worth listening to, IMHO, and I almost never have
| since I discovered Nirvana. All the signals were there of a
| great live band - the cultish following, the reputation, the
| emotional energy in the music.
|
| I originally wrote something in the rude, direct, challenging
| nature of that subculture, but in this one I'll just say: Let
| it in, past your defenses, and it will activate nerves and
| neurons and biochemicals you forgot were in living.
| aparticulate wrote:
| That was just how people in the 90s talked, I think the cliches
| sounded a bit fresher then, haha
| [deleted]
| toyg wrote:
| People still actually _believed_ the cliches. A few boomers
| had not fully sold out yet, and there was a renaissance of
| actual punk-rock as reaction to the glossy yuppie '80s pop
| sound.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| I'm not criticizing the values, which I think we definitely
| could learn from - imagine an artist today putting art and
| integrity over money! - but the way they are expressed.
|
| Cliches signal to me that the speaker doesn't mean
| seriously what they are saying - they haven't thought
| enough to construct their own language (and at more than a
| superficial level, it's unlikely the cliche represents
| anyone's serious, nuanced point-of-view); they only have a
| vague notion and copy and paste a phrase that matches
| somewhat.
|
| When Nirvana was at the height of their popularity, imagine
| all the people approaching them, saying what they thought
| Nirvana wanted to hear. That is how Albini's letter reads
| to me: A lot of cliche demonstrating that Albini didn't
| really think these things. But obviously Nirvana knew their
| values, their business, and the situation far better than I
| do now, and they hired Albini. Also, someone else in this
| thread was a record producer at the time and sees the
| letter as significant, and we should probably listen to
| them too.
| rdiddly wrote:
| I agree and would go further to say the correlation with
| outright falsehood is probably higher, i.e. a cliche
| might represent someone's effort to contradict the truth
| about themselves.
| rpmisms wrote:
| See also: Seinfeld isn't funny.
| mattl wrote:
| No way.
| hardlianotion wrote:
| Exactly. That opinion doesn't exist.
| eyelidlessness wrote:
| Yadda yadda
| onionisafruit wrote:
| In this article when I read the sentence "Apology
| apology." I immediately thought, "did he just yada yada
| the apology?"
| jstummbillig wrote:
| Albini is and interesting guy, very eloquent, but also
| inconsequential and illogical in a lot of regards (for example
| his reasoning for still using analogue tape, that it would be
| most likely to survive a nuclear war and still be able to be used
| with the equipment that is left afterwards).
|
| Albini loves to paint himself as different. A lot of it is, maybe
| unintentionally, geared towards making his side of the job
| simpler, while also feeding the ego of his clients, making all
| the creativity about them, which bands of course love. Credits
| where credits are due, that's pretty smart.
|
| > Most contemporary engineers and producers see a record as a
| "project," and the band as only one element of the project. [...]
| My approach is exactly the opposite. I consider the band the most
| important thing"
|
| There is nothing oppositional about this statement. A record is
| by all worldly definitions a project and most producers would
| still agree that the band is the most important element of that
| project.
|
| > I do not want and will not take a royalty on any record I
| record. No points. Period. I think paying a royalty to a producer
| or engineer is ethically indefensible.
|
| Royalties for producers are like buying stock in a band. The
| producers gives money (offered as production time), and gets
| shares in return. Just like stock, it makes projects possible
| that otherwise wouldn't be. That's a good thing. It's also
| immensely smart for the band, because obviously not everyone is
| as great a guy as Albini is, and having your producer have
| financial motivation to make sure the record succeeds (which you
| don't have to have when being paid flat) is a sensible thing to
| want for a working band in their producers.
|
| FWIW, the way that Albini describes his work I completely agree
| with his no-royalties stance, but only in regards to himself: If
| your thing is making a big show out of how you are not getting
| involved in things, you best stay a hired hand. Turns out tho, a
| lot of bands actually want a producer that helps decide. It's
| kinda what you go into the studio for now. Everyone chump can mic
| up an amp well enough.
|
| > I would like to be paid like a plumber: I do the job and you
| pay me what it's worth. [...] Whatever. I trust you guys to be
| fair to me and I know you must be familiar with what a regular
| industry goon would want.
|
| Well, Albini, that is exactly not how a plumber gets paid. As a
| plumber you will be able and expected to to produce a detailed
| offer and not make their clients guess a number.
|
| Pay-what-you-want is a cop-out for people in power, just like job
| descriptions without salary (ranges) are a copout. Yeah, you have
| an idea of what you want. Stop making it awkward for the other
| party. Speak the fuck up.
|
| > I, however, already have more work than I can handle
|
| Nobody in this industry does it without an ego and a varying
| measure of arrogance (since nobody in music can give you any
| answers but as a maker you have to believe you do know better).
| That ego is dependent on people wanting to work with you, and
| that is dependent on the people you worked with. Past clients
| predict future clients. Nobody wants to work with shit clients in
| the future but that is what will happen when the stream of good
| clients ebbs. Best case Albini was being dishonest to himself.
| But probably just boasting.
| garrickvanburen wrote:
| Brilliant business lessons in here for independent consultants:
| how to set a floor for value pricing, and how to clearly scope
| the work, how to act like a person.
| m1gu3l wrote:
| Respect for not wanting to take points and being straight up
| about his idea of a reasonable compensation.
| turdnagel wrote:
| This is a great letter. My favorite piece of writing from Albini
| is "The Problem with Music" [https://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-
| problem-with-music] in which he explains how record companies
| were screwing artists in vivid detail, numbers included. The
| first two paragraphs alone are worth reading.
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| That's interesting. "Producers who aren't also engineers, and
| as such, don't have the slightest fucking idea what they're
| doing in a studio, besides talking all the time. Historically,
| the progression of effort required to become a producer went
| like this: Go to college, get an EE degree. Get a job as an
| assistant at a studio. Eventually become a second engineer.
| Learn the job and become an engineer. Do that for a few years,
| then you can try your hand at producing. Now, all that's
| required to be a full-fledged "producer" is the gall it takes
| to claim to be one."
|
| Why does a record producer _or_ recording engineer need an EE
| degree? They might need to repair a console, I guess, but they
| aren 't going to design one from scratch.
| avs733 wrote:
| That's mentioned in the next couple bullets but it largely
| comes down to
|
| Signals processing
|
| Noise
| Q6T46nT668w6i3m wrote:
| Recording engineers frequently design components from
| scratch.
| toyg wrote:
| design-ed. I doubt they design anything in the age of
| digital.
| copperx wrote:
| Is DSP really harder than old school circuit design?
| toyg wrote:
| It's mostly that you don't need to, software can make
| pretty much any noise you want.
| aDfbrtVt wrote:
| Not harder, just different (modulo your definition of old
| school circuit design).
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| Yeah, he goes on to partially answer the question with
| respect to the engineers' role, but I still don't see what
| any of that has to do with production.
| Q6T46nT668w6i3m wrote:
| Nothing. This is his point. A producer doesn't really do
| much, if anything.
| renaudg wrote:
| That might have been true in the bygone era of "bands",
| rock music and guitar-heavy genres that Albini seemed
| immersed in, but in contemporary pop a producer (or team
| of producers) is literally all there is, plus maybe
| singers/songwriters.
|
| And even if you look closer at rock, the most
| groundbreaking and successful acts have always been at
| the forefront of innovation in the sound / production
| department (from the Beatles to U2 or Radiohead)
| b3morales wrote:
| I assume this was before the career path was formalized
| enough to have its own recognition in school. You would take
| an EE degree and specialize in the things that are relevant
| to recording. Similar to how Computer Science was originally
| taught to and by people doing math degrees (or sometimes also
| EE).
| eyelidlessness wrote:
| This is still one of my favorite pieces of writing about the
| music industry, and still illuminating about how it evolved
| since. Even so, I think Albini's best contribution is his own
| music. He was and probably still is a good curmudgeon, but he
| stands out to me for just harrumphing it and making music that
| he wanted to make.
| aasasd wrote:
| Jack Antonoff mentions similar concerns here:
| https://youtube.com/watch?v=GhDc1CFGvjk
| whiddershins wrote:
| Albini is a complicated figure and much of his rhetoric is at
| times in contradiction with his actions.
|
| In Utero is a truly fantastic album, and the sound was/is radical
| and unusual and ...
|
| It's unclear to me whether this had anything to do with what the
| band wanted, being true to how the band heard themselves, or any
| of that stuff.
| sneak wrote:
| His best work is on Surfer Rosa, in my amateur opinion.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKHsSz1dAac
|
| (good speakers, loud, or you're only cheating yourself.)
| tptacek wrote:
| Is it? He didn't produce Come On Pilgrim, which has the same
| "pre-Dolittle" sound. I don't know that the "in the room with
| the band playing live" effect jumps out at me about Surfer Rosa
| --- also my favorite Pixies album.
|
| Pod or Rid of Me would be my Albini production picks, if only
| for how different they each are to their immediate successor
| albums. If I can't pick an actual Albini album, that is (my
| pick would be At Action Park).
| funkaster wrote:
| I agree with you, but I'm also a die hard fan of Pixies. First
| time I heard Smells Like Teen Spirit my first impression was
| "wow... that sounds like Nirvana trying to sound like Pixies",
| which later on Kurt Kobain also said[0].
|
| [0]:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smells_Like_Teen_Spirit#Writin...
| da39a3ee wrote:
| Albini sounds really full of himself. I bet he was the sort of
| person who doesn't shut up. What Americans call a blowhard. In
| Utero seemed to lack the rhythm and energy and melodies of
| Nevermind and Bleach.
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