[HN Gopher] How to get kids to do chores: Does the Maya method w...
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How to get kids to do chores: Does the Maya method work? (2018)
Author : mhb
Score : 182 points
Date : 2022-04-02 12:25 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.npr.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.npr.org)
| langsoul-com wrote:
| It's annoying how the article doesn't straight up say what the
| Maya method is at the start.
|
| Instead it added shit tons of rambling about the Maya method and
| I got no clue what it is...
| unfocussed_mike wrote:
| I think the point is that there is no method. Maya culture _is_
| the method.
|
| The article does miss out on something important. Do Maya boys
| and the girls do the same "chores"? Are they equally as
| amenable to doing the "household-type" things?
| thriftwy wrote:
| Getting 2 years old try to do chores is as easy as not preventing
| it - they still learn to control their motions and eager to apply
| it everywhere. The trick is to get that continue past 4 years
| where the novelty wears off.
| cycomanic wrote:
| For our kids once they were used to it it just became normal.
| There is no argument, it is just what you do. Also they can do
| new things, mine are really enjoying cooking now, still with
| help but in 1-2 years they will enjoy doing the cooking all by
| themselves.
| bigfudge wrote:
| Exactly. Plus this article made me quite nostalgic for the days
| of having only one child... it's fun doing chores with toddlers
| provided you don't really need them done and nobody else wants
| your attention!
| cycomanic wrote:
| Don't take it the wrong way, but that's exactly the point of
| the article. You make the activity part of the quality time,
| unless you suddenly don't have time for your older kids
| anymore.
|
| I was reading the article and wondering why that is even
| called the Maya method. Is that so special? I just had
| breakfast, my younger one put a new bag into the rubbish and
| the older one (7) made me crepes the other day (without any
| help) and was incredibly proud, because the crepes stays
| whole unlike in previous attempts were it broke when turning.
| I think this is really about giving kids responsibility and
| taking them seriously as proper persons. They want to help,
| they want responsibilities, it is us adults who don't want to
| give it to them.
| dang wrote:
| Past related threads:
|
| _How to Get Kids to Do Chores: Does the Maya Method Work?_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17905657 - Sept 2018 (161
| comments)
|
| _How Children in a Maya Village Do Chores_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17280710 - June 2018 (202
| comments)
|
| Also:
|
| _Tying Allowance to Chores Could Kill Kids' Motivation to Help
| Out_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18779745 - Dec 2018
| (114 comments)
|
| Others?
| INTPenis wrote:
| I've read the "maya method" before, and knowing kids I'd say it
| works when there are no other distractions such as roblox or TV.
| WilTimSon wrote:
| If you can raise your kids to not be distracted by roblox and
| TV (or at least not too distracted), you've probably already
| won the chore battle.
| ramraj07 wrote:
| Which battle? A well raised kid would probably still be a kid
| at heart and do the chores, not mutually exclusive.
| INTPenis wrote:
| This is a grave simplification but at the end of the day you
| decide what input they get. You have the money, the power.
|
| But in reality kids wield power over their parents and the
| parents give in.
|
| Kids are empty canvases, they soak up what they see and
| emulate it.
| Bancakes wrote:
| The moment that kid enters K12, you've lost. The moment all
| the classmates start throwing around memes, references, and
| pop culture, and your kids sit at the back quietly and
| secluded - you've lost. The child has to go through these
| periods the hard way and learn to cope with impulses and
| stimuli.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| The hard way in some areas means over half of the high
| school girls are taking anti depression medication
| though...
| riffraff wrote:
| my kids (~6, ~8) don't have access to videogames and watch TV
| maybe 30m a day, and not every day, but still don't do chores
| happily.
|
| I don't think screens are categorically different from other
| distractions (tho they may be worse in some ways). My
| daughter will happily spend time reading books after having
| made a mess with toys rather than tidy up. My son does the
| same and he can't even read.
| INTPenis wrote:
| Yeah well you have to remember that the mayan villages they
| studied didn't even have a library. When I first read about
| this mayan method they had packed soil for floors and huts.
|
| So when I say distractions, I mean all distractions.
| blowski wrote:
| My 8 year old son gets distracted by reading the
| instructions on the milk carton.
| pizza234 wrote:
| I got a kid who "does the chores". The reason they do it is that
| they've been educated since very young age (3+) to have
| responsibilities: cleaning, tidying up, setting/clearing the
| table and so on. They have their own hoover and drying rack.
|
| I believe it's ultimately a matter of underlying philosophy of
| treating children like "young adults" or not, with all the
| consequences, as the roles are set from very young age.
|
| I know parents who are horrified when they hear about 5 years old
| children cleaning up after themselves; with their model though,
| they set the role of "incapable children" and "providing parents"
| - "teaching" them to do the "chores" later will be hard, because
| it's not in the role they've taught.
|
| I also disagree with the term "chore". It's true that they're
| boring, but this term disconnects tasks from their purposes; if
| nobody, say, sets and clears the table, nobody can eat. It's
| crucial to have in mind that chores/tasks always have a purpose.
| If a child is grown up as "incapable", there's no connection
| between task and purpose, and actually, it's rational to refuse
| to perform any task ("chore"), because it's part of somebody
| else's responsibilities (the "providing parent").
| [deleted]
| slothtrop wrote:
| Intuitively I expect that the earlier the pattern is set, the
| easier it will be later. I don't think chores need to be spun
| as anything other than what they are; I'm a fully grown adult
| and don't care for a good deal of them, but I have the
| ingrained habit not to defer them indefinitely. Once you get
| going it's not so bad, I do a lot of daydreaming during
| routines.
|
| On the other hand, I don't think I would have a hefty list of
| expectations. You're only a child once. My labor expectations
| are low, I just want them to have constructive / creative go-to
| activities when playing. Overscheduling or putting them to work
| all the time just robs them of childhood experience that
| they'll never get again. Putting away toys and cleaning up
| after a mess is a reasonable ask, as they need to learn to take
| care of themselves and not live like slobs into adulthood.
| agumonkey wrote:
| On a documentary, a couple of blind people had a daughter. She
| kinda helped in every tasks, and with a natural care. It was a
| deep collaboration all the time. To me it's as if being blind
| made her parents unable to play games (being selfish, bossy,
| lying) with the girl, and included her in everything as a team
| member, and she naturally rose to the challenge by giving her
| full attention. Maybe I'm wrong but it left a strong memory in
| me.
| endominus wrote:
| You wouldn't happen to recall the name of the documentary
| would you? That sounds like an interesting watch.
| agumonkey wrote:
| I said documentary but it was tiny french lunch news video
| (15min) about blind couples from 15 years ago, I tried to
| google generic terms but got nothing.
|
| to add to the video, it was overwhelming to see the trio
| operate in such sweet harmony (as opposed to the fun or
| sometimes not so fun chaos of the usual family)
| shigi42 wrote:
| Treating children like "young adults" makes so much sense.
| There must be some limits to it, of course.
|
| Can anybody recommend a good article or a book by a
| psychologist/psychiatrist elaborating this topic?
| makeitdouble wrote:
| Not the answer you might want to hear... but books are
| usually not a good approach for this kind of topic as
|
| - you will need to look at every single advice with distance
| and criticism to see if it fits your kid
|
| - there will be hundreds of little things you will have to
| find by yourself to make it work that won't be in the book
| you read.
|
| At the end of the day, I'm not sure parenting books help more
| than random discussions from other parents who'll give hint
| about stuff they are trying. I remember reading a lot about
| "free range" parenting for instance, and it was basically
| wasted time. The general idea in itself is extremely
| valuable, the details don't matter at all, as every parent
| will have to rethink it all by themselves to make it work in
| their specific setting.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| This sounds like Montessori. It involves observing the child,
| making sure they have appropriate tools for their size and
| ability, taking the time to slowly tech them everything you
| think is obvious, etc.
| lukeasrodgers wrote:
| This isn't exactly about treating kids like "young adults"
| but Magda Gerber's Your Self Confident Baby is largely about
| recognizing how capable kids are, even from infancy. Also
| check out Ross Greene, whose big idea is basically "you can
| do collaborative decision making with children that more
| closely resembles how you would negotiate and interact with
| an adult whose autonomy you respect, vs just trying to impose
| your will on them."
| kqr wrote:
| Do you have a specific Ross Greene book you recommend?
| kqr wrote:
| It's not quite what you are asking for, but I think you'd be
| interested in _NurtureShock_. It investigates common
| parenting sense with a foot in the evidence and finds a lot
| of things that don 't quite add up. (One typical finding that
| relates to the "small adult" thing is that it's beneficial to
| discuss race and racial issues surprisingly early.)
|
| Although it's ostensibly aimed at adults, Dan Pink's _Drive_
| is a useful reference for what motivates people, including
| children.
|
| When we're at it, I also learned a lot about what can and
| cannot be taught to children from _The Nurture Assumption_.
| mike1o1 wrote:
| The author of the article has a full blown book on the
| subject: Hunt, Gather, Parent. It's a mix of anecdotes and
| some of the psychology of why this approach appears to work.
| My wife and I enjoyed it quite a bit.
| bigDinosaur wrote:
| I think often the hard part is establishing just what
| treating kids like 'young adults' means. They're fairly
| different (for better and for worse) so it can be hard to
| apply certain things that might work on a real young adult (I
| think certain kinds of negotiations are where this is most
| clear).
| mostertoaster wrote:
| Is the goal to "get kids to do chores"?
| pdpi wrote:
| "Get kids used to contributing to the household while
| developing life skills". Getting chores done is a pleasant
| side-effect.
| GavinMcG wrote:
| Yes. Learning to manage one's own life is important, and making
| it a fun process from an early age is worthwhile.
| lotophage wrote:
| The goal is not to "get kids to do chores" per se, but to raise
| adults who are self sufficient and self reliant. "Chores" is a
| bit of a loaded word because I think a lot of people associate
| it with dread and a sort of low key undeserved punishment,
| which is certainly not the goal. In this context it is more
| akin to having a child pass you pegs while you are trying to
| hang the washing on the line as opposed to parking them in
| front of a screen or compete for your attention.
| mostertoaster wrote:
| What if I'm super wealthy, and i don't do any chores but have
| servants who do them all? Is the important part then to teach
| them how to treat the servants perhaps?
| watwut wrote:
| Yes. Along with getting them to wash teeth and shower.
| dustymcp wrote:
| Don't forget we wipe from front to back!
| [deleted]
| shannifin wrote:
| Wonder what the effect is of having close-aged siblings? There
| was little chance I would voluntarily do the dishes or fold
| laundry by myself while my siblings were doing something else.
| (But was this because my siblings were doing something else, or
| because I had learned to hate chores already?)
| gunapologist99 wrote:
| Calling this "the Maya method" seems like a bit of a stretch.
| sudhirj wrote:
| The method I try to use with the kid is to involve her in what
| I'm doing, and enable and encourage playing at being an adult.
| That translates a lot into doing some of the housework. Other
| than that I try to avoid rewards for work, but I do a "no doing
| the thing you want until you do the thing you need to do" rule.
| So some amount of work needs to get done before TV time, but it
| is a fine line to walk to make sure the reward doesn't ruin
| intrinsic motivation.
| mdip wrote:
| I've had a pretty basic and successful approach to getting both
| of my kids to do chores:
|
| (1) I'm honest, nobody likes doing chores, including me. We're
| part of a family. There are things that have to get done. Dad
| does chores in the form of work that the kids can't help with.
| The kids pull up some of the slack so Dad has time to do fun
| things with them.
|
| (2) _Your age does not dictate your privileges, your maturity
| does._ A big part of maturity is doing things you _have_ to do
| with the quality you would if you actually _wanted_ to do them.
| Demonstrating that you are completing your chores without being
| asked and at or above the level I am expecting them to be
| completed always earns you more privileges. I won 't give you
| crap about playing video games too long, you won't get
| interrupted while playing to finish something that didn't get
| done, you'll get more of an opportunity to control your free time
| without my interference.
|
| (3) I spell it all out to them, regularly. It's one thing to say
| "this is what will happen", but it's another thing for me to walk
| into a room and recognize "Hey bud, thanks for taking care of the
| kitchen so well and without being asked, you're really
| demonstrating maturity of a kid a lot older than you. You can
| have an extra hour of (privilege) or 'you no longer have to ask
| me permission to have (privilege) because you've demonstrated
| your maturity'". I thank them, constantly, when they decide to
| handle something early, when they handle things correctly, or
| when their handling of things is more thorough than usual.
|
| (4) When things aren't right, but effort was made, I praise the
| work that _was_ done and the parts I was happy with, first. If it
| 's pretty close to correct, but part of it was missed, I'll let
| them finish whatever entertainment they're in the middle of
| instead of making them stop and fix it with a simple "You got
| pretty close, so I'm going to give you a break. When you're done
| with that, just wipe off the table. Make sure it gets done in the
| next 30 minutes".
|
| (5) When the chore is unusually large (big dinner/etc)[0], I get
| right in there with them and intentionally take the hardest part
| of the job -- cleaning the pots/pans/knives by hand. They hate
| it, they know I hate it, and when they see me step in, everyone
| suddenly works harder and without complaining[1].
|
| (6) If it's a total failure or they completely forgot, they are
| required to stop what they're doing and address it immediately.
|
| That last one doesn't come up much any longer. When it does, it
| rarely comes with grief because they know that grousing is simply
| going to result in me repeating the exact expectations they
| already know they live under. When I do get grief, I re-explain
| the rules and end up at "So we have a bunch of things that need
| to get done and a family who needs them to get done. I can't
| think of a more reasonable way to make sure both of those needs
| are met. If you have better ideas, I'll listen." ... and the
| chore gets done.
|
| Since taking this approach, I've never had to resort to
| discipline. I don't even make it about that. To them, I'm not
| having them do chores in order to "teach them about work", I'm
| having them do chores because "there's work to be done and it's
| right that we share it."
|
| I will say, it took me a while to get there. It was tempting once
| my kids started showing that they could handle chores to give
| them far more than they should be expected to handle. It was also
| tempting to hold them to an unreasonable standard. I've learned
| that until they're around 14-years old, the chore will get done
| to my expectations 1 out of 5 times. They'll actually _remember_
| to do the chore without being asked about 3 out of 5 times. There
| is no yelling, no grounding, etc when they 're not meeting my
| expectations. Chores suck. That just makes them dread them, more,
| and it'll "only make them work as hard as they need to in order
| to not get [grief]"
|
| I set my expectations accordingly. It'd be nice if my 12-year-old
| didn't skip cleaning the shower _almost_ every time the bathroom
| chore comes up, but she 's young and forgets -- we have a list,
| she forgets to look at it. Both of my oldest kids, once they hit
| 14, just "get it done" and do things they're not expected to nor
| asked (which I encourage by making a big deal about it in front
| of the rest of the family). That's a big deal for me. I learned
| early in my career that the person who volunteers for the work
| nobody wants to do often gets to chosen to do the work everyone
| wants to do.
|
| It's tempting when they're doing things right to treat that as
| "normal" and ignore it. I try my hardest to avoid this -- I don't
| want my kids to feel like their efforts are taken for granted. I
| certainly appreciate walking into a clean kitchen to cook and I
| will find the kid who handled that job, last, give them a hug and
| tell them how thankful I am that they made my job easier by doing
| what they had to do. My oldest acts as though I'm over-doing it,
| but I don't let that bit of humility stop me.
|
| I remember telling my 16-year old that I was _terrified_ about
| the idea of handing over the keys to my car when he was 13. While
| teaching him how to drive, I realized I had no fear that he 'd
| choose to be irresponsible with such a dangerous privilege. I
| still have fear, but driving _is_ dangerous no matter how
| responsible you are. This child, however, got his first job this
| year (he 's a lifeguard) and is loved by his manager, the same
| kid who couldn't keep $10 from burning a hole in his pocket and
| couldn't come up with an answer to "what do you think you'd want
| to do when you move out?" has $1,000 saved up in the bank[2] in a
| couple of months because he wants to be a pilot and knows he
| needs a lot of money available for flight school and a degree. He
| drives _himself_ to the gym _after school_ or after work three
| days a week. He knows he 's responsible for paying for college
| and from 9th grade on he's scored all "A"'s with an occasional
| "B+" which landed him in a program to take college classes during
| High School at no cost. He is a _much_ harder working kid than I
| was at his age and he 's a hell of a lot happier than I was back
| then.
|
| Seems like a stretch to connect chores and that, but it all comes
| back to it. Nothing is free, nothing gets done without someone
| doing it, and as far as your _own_ life is concerned, you 're
| never going to achieve the things you _want_ to do if you aren 't
| willing to do the things you _have_ to do. He fully grasps this
| and my 14-year-old is almost there, too. The others are well on
| their way.
|
| [0] A rule in my home has long been "The kids handle meal clean-
| up". The adults cook, the kids clean. It's entirely selfish on my
| part, I hate doing dishes, and it was probably the first thing I
| taught all of the kids to handle. They _know_ I hate doing it.
|
| [1] Something that I picked up on early in my first job was that
| managers who lead this way win the trust of their staff. I had a
| retail job and was "a grunt"; for a brief period we had a GM that
| _everyone loved_. The reason was simple: He worked 8-5, but every
| morning when the store opened, he was right out there with us
| tidying up the aisles, aligning products, pulling depleted
| products down from overstock ... the crappy parts. It barely
| affected the amount of work we had to do having one extra guy out
| there, but it made everyone _want_ to work harder seeing the
| "big important guy" doing the menial labour work.
|
| [2] My dad's rule was "you save 60% of what you make while you
| live here". My Dad started a business for me -- selling custom
| PCs to businesses -- so I was making quite a bit of money. I
| hated the rule. I didn't even _look_ at my savings account until
| a few days after my 17th birthday when my Dad sat me down and
| said "you have $14,000 saved up -- it's time to buy a good used
| car; what kind do you think you want to own?" I was the kid
| driving a bright red convertible to school, without a car payment
| or a dime of Mom/Dad's money. That thing was cleaned every
| weekend/waxed once a month and never got a ding or a scratch on
| it. My 16-year old didn't need help saving, he _wants_ to.
| pdpi wrote:
| I think this boils down to one single rule:
|
| Kids are wired to want to learn things. Learning is fun, because
| play is semi-structured learning.
|
| You can see this in other species too, where pups and kittens
| play at hunting and fighting, and it comes with a number of
| important corollaries.
|
| First one is that a major part of this learning experience is
| emotional, not just technical. You're not just teaching your
| child to wash the dishes, you're also teaching them how to feel
| about washing the dishes. If you act like chores are something to
| be avoided, your kids will learn that from you. If you resent
| your kids not helping, they'll learn that too.
|
| Second is that kids never stop learning, so you never stop
| teaching. If you act like you resent chores all day, then try to
| act enthusiastic about doing them as a way to get your kid to
| help, they'll catch on to the deception really quickly.
|
| Third, your kids are not always learning the lessons you want to
| teach them. If you want to punish them for misbehaving, don't do
| that by giving them chores. Chores = punishment teaches the exact
| opposite of what you want them to learn!
| burntoutfire wrote:
| > First one is that a major part of this learning experience is
| emotional, not just technical. You're not just teaching your
| child to wash the dishes, you're also teaching them how to feel
| about washing the dishes. If you act like chores are something
| to be avoided, your kids will learn that from you. If you
| resent your kids not helping, they'll learn that too.
|
| That really works! When my friend was a kid, his older sister
| pretended that vacuuming the apartment (something she was made
| to do by the parents) was the coolest thing in the world. As a
| result, my friend was dying to take the vacuum from her and do
| the job himself.
| dotancohen wrote:
| When my daughters were young I introduced sardines as desert.
| When we would go out to the swimming pool and friends'
| parents would suggest ice cream, by daughters would ask if I
| brought sardines.
|
| Think about how much of our preferences, be them food,
| politics, or religion, are learned. We absolutely could have
| a peaceful, productive society, if we just started teaching
| it properly at a young age. I do believe that the popular
| media has a large part to play in that.
| yakubin wrote:
| When I was a child, I was allergic to a whole bunch of
| things, one of them being sweets. But I wasn't allergic to
| apples, carrots and blackberries, so those were given to me
| in place of sweets. Now in adulthood blackberries are my
| favourite snack, followed by apples, and I'm not a huge fan
| of sweets.
| voakbasda wrote:
| Were you really allergic to sweets or did your parents
| tell you that to control your behavior? in the context of
| this thread, that sounds like what some parents would do,
| and your last sentence implies that you can actually eat
| them.
| yakubin wrote:
| I was really allergic. I was born with a sick
| gastrointestinal tract. After 7 years it was cured with a
| short relapse some years later.
| supertofu wrote:
| What ingredient in sweets were you allergic to?
| yakubin wrote:
| Depended on the sweets. There was a whole bunch of
| allergies I don't even remember now. My whole
| gastrointestinal tract was perpetually sick (since
| birth), I would visit the hospital basically everyday.
| Most notably, I couldn't eat chocolate, because I was
| lactose- and gluten-intolerant. So I couldn't eat any
| sweets which had any chocolate in them, no sweets which
| were pastry-based etc.
|
| Tangentially, in those times avoiding gluten wasn't as
| fashionable as it is today, and so there wasn't really
| any gluten-free bread to buy. My mum would bake bread
| herself for that purpose, because otherwise I wouldn't
| even be able to eat bread.
| Zababa wrote:
| My parents called green beens "green french fries" when I
| was younger. To this day they are still one of my favorite
| vegetables.
| DennisP wrote:
| I used to hate green beans. Then one day my parents said
| "you'll like these, they're barbecued beans." After I
| allowed that they were actually pretty good, they
| revealed they were just regular green beans but they'd
| accidentally burned them. Next time we had green beans I
| had to admit they tasted a lot like the barbecue version.
| andi999 wrote:
| The Tom Sawyer method?
| yosamino wrote:
| > That suppressed smile worries me.
|
| https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1995/05/06/
| hosh wrote:
| It's more than just how one feels about chores and involves the
| world view and paradigm.
|
| Indigenous families typically have a world view in which a
| member of the community voluntarily contributes towards
| something to the greater community. Some tasks are so important
| that _someone_ somewhere has to do it, and it is less about
| individual responsibility. And this extends not just to
| "chores", but the care of people and care of the land.
|
| So this isn't a "chore", something someone is forced to do,
| perhaps even a punishment. If a modern family tries to
| implement this without dropping the individualist frame, there
| is a tension in trying to get the child to do something that
| you yourself don't really want to do, yet must do as an
| "adult".
|
| It's why for my kids, household chores are never done in order
| to get money. It's a bit too late to instill this for my
| teenage step-daughter, but it is something we're implementing
| for our 15-month old son.
|
| Carol Sanford has written a book called _Regenerative Life_
| that describes the kind of world view and paradigm for this,
| and it is informed from her being raised by her Mohawk
| grandfather. When she adapted this to her children, she asked
| her two children what they wanted to contribute. Her 9 year old
| daughter wanted to pay the bills, and her even younger son
| wanted to cook dinner. She didn't throw them into the deep end,
| and instead acted as a resource and helped developed their
| individual capacity to contribute in that way. When they were
| older, the daughter joined an athletic program and wanted to go
| on a special diet. She collaborated with her brother about her
| needs. He gathered the ingredients and cooked it for her, and
| she worked out the budget for it.
|
| This kind of stuff can go beyond just doing chores.
| AbrahamParangi wrote:
| The point about communitarianism in many societies is overall
| reasonable but generalizing about "indigenous people" is not
| sound. "Indigenous" is a wastebasket taxon, defining people
| by what they are not rather than what they are.
| jollybean wrote:
| "Indigenous families typically have a world view in which a
| member of the community voluntarily contributes towards
| something to the greater community. "
|
| I don't see how this is different than anywhere else. That's
| actually 'individual responsibility' rephrased: it's
| someone's 'individual responsibility to do their part'. The
| word 'duty' has historically always been party of our
| lexicon, although fallen off quite rapidly in the last couple
| generations.
|
| The issue is not one of 'responsibility' because if people
| undertook that the world would be fine, it's all these thing
| v. 'personal expression or fulfillment' which is now the
| thing we teach people. Which is fine of course, but it
| doesn't gel very well with the day to day and the fact that
| the bulk of it is just 'grind' and often not obviously self
| oriented.
|
| I could 'write a book' that was 'informed from my WW2 era
| grandparents' who were born on farms without electricity,
| about what 'community' means. That would be the experience
| most Westerners would have.
| jimmygrapes wrote:
| When it comes to dishes, there is one thing I have found that
| seems to work universally for children and adults alike: give
| them ownership. They have their own set of dishes, and it is
| made clear that it is their responsibility to clean them and
| keep them, and to not have them be in the way of others trying
| to do the same. If your dish is not clean, you must clean it
| before it can be used.
|
| Things get hairier when it comes to pots and pans and other
| such common use items, but I have found that the second part of
| the above helps here too: make sure you're not blocking others
| from keeping their stuff clean. This leads to washing as you
| go, to caring for your stuff, and to a sense of pride in your
| work.
|
| inb4 commies /s
| jozvolskyef wrote:
| I had this idea as a kid, but my family weren't convinced:
|
| As a child, I was perplexed as to why my mother and brother
| would allow dirty dishes to pile up in the sink, rather than
| placing them in the dishwasher. My brother, in particular,
| seemed to have no regard for keeping the kitchen clean. After
| unsuccessfully attempting to convince them that the
| dishwasher was a superior system, I resorted to washing only
| the dishes I used myself, and refusing to wash most of the
| others. 20 years later, my mother claims I never washed
| dishes, and that my brother did all the work.
| watwut wrote:
| Isn't the case that brother ended up washing/putting away
| also mom's and dad's dishes along with common dishes (pots,
| salads).
|
| If you always do only strictly own dishes and someone else
| does the rest, that someone is in fact doing more dishes -
| except at different time.
| jozvolskyef wrote:
| It is true that my brother did the washing up for our
| mum, but I would argue that a lot of the work was due to
| avoidable inefficiency (he was a firefighter arsonist;
| half the kitchen would be covered in oil when he used a
| pan, and mum would just see the mess, not who made it,
| and then he'd be get the credit for cleaning it), and
| that I contributed roughly the amount that I consumed,
| because back then I would offset the occasional shared
| meal by occasionally doing the washing up for everyone.
| kqr wrote:
| Here comes the commie:
|
| This is something I'm struggling with personally. My
| firstborn is just about the age where he is starting to
| exhibit territoriality around things he is currently using.
|
| To what extent do I want to reinforce the idea of private
| property in the home? Philosophically, I'm definitely against
| it. Practically, it seems like it has certain benefits and
| drawbacks and I don't know which are stronger. I have no
| idea! Opinions, please.
| csw-001 wrote:
| Not sure this is a perfect solution but in our house we let
| the kids pick one or two items that are "always yours",
| everything else is considered communal and must be shared.
| It's a framework to build on as they get older - some
| things are shared (toys) somethings are not (underwear,
| water bottles, Mom's laptop).
|
| For what it's worth we still have daily "not sharing"
| arguments...
| dotancohen wrote:
| Things he is using, you definitely want to encourage the
| territoriality. Otherwise there is a real risk of bullying
| when he goes to kindergarten and preschool. But things that
| he is not currently using should definitely be shared.
|
| I'm guessing that your son is about two years old (based on
| my three children's behaviour at that age), so he should
| already be in daily contact with non-family children but
| not yet experienced bullying. So for that I'll mention how
| i think about it: bullying is how humans determine who is
| the Alpha Male. It is natural and expected. So don't try to
| shield your son from it, rather, prepare him for it.
| gumby wrote:
| I wouldn't overfit on bullying. It's a hazard to be
| taught, as is traffic, but hardly the dominant culture.
|
| Having been a parent in multiple cultures / countries and
| talked a lot about parenting with family members in
| others, Americans seem to talk more than others about
| bullying yet tolerate it much more than most others.
| pmarreck wrote:
| Speaking as someone who was a teen in the 80's in the
| United States: The only way to stop a school bully (a
| person who has learned to use force for personal gain) is
| with a bigger "bully" (another stronger student, or an
| administrator who has more force). Therein lies the rub:
| Might makes right. There's no stable system of sheep
| because the most wolf-like of them will always emerge to
| take advantage of the others. You see this in behavior
| across species, there's like an "aggression equilibrium";
| too many wolves result in too much bloodshed; too few and
| a single wolf obtains an outsize share of
| resources/social/reproductive capital, or what have you
| (and thus perpetuates their aggressive genes). Witness
| every communist system put into place so far: What was
| envisioned was a system of equals, but nature abhors a
| vacuum so what you end up getting is a bunch of people
| considered equals, _and a dictator above them all_.
|
| And truly, I learned this lesson early on only _because_
| of bullying (towards me): The school administration did
| nothing. The teachers did nothing. I was left to fend for
| myself... and this is what I learned: If you screw up the
| courage to stand up to a bully ( "display your readiness
| to use force"), they will often back down. In some cases
| they will ONLY back down if you resort to physicality
| (the proverbial "fist to the face"). I learned this
| lesson again and again- I've had my wrist broken by a
| bully, but at least he never messed with me again. And as
| an adult, I've applied this, not in the direct use of
| force but in the fact that _your will_ is what counts-
| when fighting traffic tickets, it 's you vs. the system.
|
| It shouldn't be surprising that 100% of the bullies I
| knew (who because I'm a peaceable sort, I actually
| friended on FB years later) became Republicans. But some
| of them also became leaders in various things.
|
| My main bully, however, was apparently a troubled sort
| himself, and ended up taking a shotgun to his own head in
| front of his family. Spent a week in the ICU before
| giving up the ghost. Before this happened, I randomly ran
| into him at a bar. I didn't recognize him at first
| because he had gained a lot of weight, but one look in
| the eyes (the eyes always contain the identity of the
| individual when nothing else does, for some reason) and
| he immediately said "Let me buy you a beer". I accepted.
| MrJohz wrote:
| On the other hand, speaking as someone who was a teen in
| the 00s in the UK, I never found that sort of "might
| makes right" solution worked - when I was violent, I was
| mocked for my temper, and when I was peaceful I was
| mocked for my lack of temper.
|
| What ultimately helped was (a) growing a person, and
| recognising that the people I was choosing to hang out
| with were often either bullies, or enabling the bullies;
| and (b) relocating to a new school where I could redefine
| myself in a way that I was more comfortable with.
| pmarreck wrote:
| School relocation can go in either direction. One of the
| worst things my parents (unknowingly at the time) did was
| move our family when I was turning 12. We had just left a
| parochial school where I was doing fine both academically
| and socially, and then... a (good) public school with
| people I never met. All the other dudes had already
| established "tacit dominance hierarchies" or whatever,
| and here I come in and mess the whole thing up (another
| thing that didn't help was the merging of 2 schools into
| 1 in 7th grade, apparently causing EVERY guy (ok many
| guys, but not me) to enter "test the other person's
| mettle mode"). Junior high was HELL as a result. I was a
| super-late bloomer (or that is what they used to call it;
| what actually happened in reality is that I had
| testosterone secretion timing issues and my parents were
| too frugal to take me to a doctor) and that didn't help
| either.
|
| I remember 1 fight in grade school, a guy shorter than me
| picked a fight with me, next thing I know there's a
| circle of people around us jeering, and me being the
| nonviolent type managed to snatch him into a headlock and
| give him a "noogie" (rubbing knuckles on the person's
| scalp which hurts like a bitch but does no harm) and he
| said "mercy" pretty quick and I helped him off the floor-
| I was pretty proud of that resolution... but it WAS
| ultimately the application of a form of (counter)force.
| kqr wrote:
| Correct at all counts. He's two, and I certainly notice
| that he (and his peers) are starting to experiment with
| violence as a tool for managing relationships with people
| and things.
|
| My instinct was also the "take turns using things, but
| don't assert property rights of things that aren't used".
|
| Where I'm hesitant is some things have incredible
| emotional value to one person but not to others -- is it
| not nice to ask others to respect that?
|
| Something else that troubles me is that _I_ certainly don
| 't act that way -- there are many things my wife and I
| brought into our relationship that we still consider
| private property, mainly for convenience ("her" drawer is
| organised according to her needs, for example).
|
| Another thing is purely linguistic habit. While my wife
| is very good at asking e.g. "can I taste the ice cream"
| I'm used to phrasing the question as "can I taste _your_
| ice cream ".
| DoneWithAllThat wrote:
| I think you need to decide if you're trying to raise your
| child for the world that exists, or the world that you
| wish existed.
| pdpi wrote:
| I think "your ice cream" is perfectly appropriate.
|
| The flip side to seeing wealth as communal is that you
| need to respect the division when it happens. As
| custodian of the family's money, you bought everybody ice
| cream. But some of that ice cream is now yours. It's your
| fair share of the ice cream, you picked the flavours and
| the sprinkles and what not, because it was for _you_.
| It's entirely appropriate, and indeed desirable, to
| assert ownership over that. Not respecting boundaries is
| a Bad Thing.
|
| What you can, and should, teach on top of that is
| generosity. "This is my ice cream and mine alone, but you
| can taste it if you like." That sort of idea.
|
| It's your decision to share, but sharing your ice cream
| with me means you get to see my smile as I try that
| really good flavour you asked for, and that smile is
| really valuable.
| saiya-jin wrote:
| "Everything good in life is kindness"
|
| I've read it here on HN few months ago and somehow it
| stuck with me. I try to look at world, people,
| relationships etc through this lens, in both positive and
| negative manifestations of it.
|
| I'll try to teach my kids the reason behind it.
| Generosity for me is one type of kindness.
| dotancohen wrote:
| I really like this answer, and will apply it with my own
| children. Thank you!
| dotancohen wrote:
| Your remaining questions I don't have answers for ))
| Maybe ask me something about Python?
|
| Your example of linguistic habit is excellent, because it
| demonstrates that the language we use is both descriptive
| of how we perceive our surroundings, and prescriptive in
| influencing behaviour. Maybe ask "can I taste the ice
| cream" but offer "you can taste my ice cream". Children
| are wiser than us, instead of perceiving a mixed signal I
| find they usually figure out how to interpret things in
| surprising ways - that goes for my own children and other
| peoples' children. They are far more plastic and have
| less preconceived "bins" to interpret things.
|
| The truth is, most of our questions regarding raising the
| kids we will not ever get answers for. That's fine, the
| kids are learning along the way just as we are.
| chaosite wrote:
| Alpha/Beta/Sigma/Omega/Upsilon male is discredited
| pseudo-scientific bullshit, and it is a bad idea to base
| one's personal philosophy on it. I also disagree that
| bullying is natural, but if even if it is, that still
| does not mean it should be accepted, tolerated, or
| encouraged (which you are implying).
| gunfighthacksaw wrote:
| This. Dominance hierarchies exist, but aren't alpha, beta
| whatever. We aren't wolves, we're more like bonobos.
| glogla wrote:
| Not even wolves are this way.
|
| In their family lives, wolves have lifelong monogamous
| relationships. In their pack lives, wolves have kind of
| "situational leadership" where they know that wolf X is
| the best tracker and wolf Y is the best hunter so they
| follow wolf X to find prey and wolf Y takes lead to hunt
| it. Other than that, they are pre-democratic - if most of
| pack wants to do something, the rest follows.
| kqr wrote:
| I disagree. While the alpha male terminology seems a bit
| oversimplified, the fact remains that all sorts of
| violence, be it physical, verbal, or social (e.g.
| preventing someone from joining in the play) is a tool
| people use in varying degrees to influence relationships.
|
| It's a dangerous tool, because it's so stupid. Beating
| someone is effectively saying "I don't care how well
| reasoned your arguments are, now you pretend to listen to
| me instead." But this stupidity is both its weakness and
| its strength.
|
| Violence is a very complicated tool, and I think people
| need some exposure to it (on both sides of it) to
| understand when its appropriate and (more frequently)
| when it's uncalled for.
|
| This does not mean it's tolerated or encouraged -- quite
| the opposite! It's important to be the role model that
| teaches children all the circumstances in which it's
| wrong!
|
| But pretending it serves no social function makes, I
| think, you a worse teacher. By completely denying the
| upsides of violence you become less trustworthy as a
| teacher, because even children can see the obvious short-
| term upsides!
| pmarreck wrote:
| It IS natural (unfortunately; not all truths are
| palatable). And not only that, it's systematic (at least
| in the States). For example, I am currently "fighting" to
| get something covered by my health insurance. In the past
| I have "fought" in court to defend myself from traffic
| tickets, etc. It's inescapable that you will have to
| fight for yourself in this life in some form, IMHO. Maybe
| not physically, necessarily (...home intrusion? attempted
| robbery? unjust police use of force? Trump getting
| himself installed as dictator?) but force, willpower,
| "oomph", it's all connected. Your tone of voice on a
| phone call or in person? That's an expression of force as
| well. Fuller comment I wrote on this topic here:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30896777
|
| The other night I was speaking to someone I just met and
| realized I was (without even thinking about it)
| dominating the conversation, so I consciously pulled back
| out of respect... Perhaps that is the key to managing
| force, simply respecting others
| bittercynic wrote:
| While knowing how to speak forcefully is certainly a
| valuable skill to have, almost every situation I face in
| life is better approached with friendly confidence.
|
| I've met a few people who, when a cashier or waiter makes
| a mistake, think they need to take control, and _demand_
| a resolution, and I think they are just being needlessly
| unpleasant, and get worse outcomes on average because
| they 're being disrespectful.
| pmarreck wrote:
| Agree with that. I think I'm thinking of confident (not
| disrespectful) force. Just being assertive about what you
| think you deserve, that sort of thing. And some people
| are too excessive at it, possibly because others are
| insufficiently capable of it.
|
| I look at Putin (also clearly a bully) and I think, was
| there a "posture" that Ukraine could have taken prior to
| this which would have discouraged him before he committed
| to what he is doing now? "Promising not to join NATO"? I
| guess the analogy would be a bully beating up a
| neighbor's kid to prevent him from joining a rival gang?
| I don't know. You acquiesce to the bully and usually the
| bully's demands just go up. Could Putin's advisors have
| gotten past their fear and been more honest with him?
| Well, that's the problem with ruling with fear (or
| perhaps I should say "using fear excessively" with the
| insinuation that plainly confident (but yet respectful)
| people do strike a bit of fear in others), you never get
| the whole truth.
| bittercynic wrote:
| The case of Putin is so far outside anything I've
| experienced that I don't feel like it would have much
| meaning for me to agree or disagree with you.
|
| As for confidence striking a bit of fear in others, I've
| seen that most often with people who find themselves in a
| position where they are supposed to be a leader, but
| don't know how to lead. If someone is attempting to use
| bullying to control their reports, having confident
| reports can shine a light on the problem and be scary for
| the incompetent leader.
|
| edit to add: I think confidence is only scary to someone
| who is attempting to abuse/control.
| manmal wrote:
| If this resonates with you, check out Montessori. I think
| learning (or, rather, retaining) appreciation for "work" is an
| important part of why Montessori is so successful.
| thisistheend123 wrote:
| Lead by example. If you want your kids to behave in a certain
| way, behave that way yourself.
| nathias wrote:
| seems like the Tom Sawyer method, but dedicating your whole life
| to the bit
| gumby wrote:
| Parenting is "dedicating your whole life" for some period of
| time. If you manage to get some of the fundamentals right and
| are lucky then more of that period can be fun.
| vasco wrote:
| Does anyone have tips on getting an adult partner to do the same?
| amelius wrote:
| Or apply this to self?
| Tade0 wrote:
| I believe functioning adults naturally do chores provided they
| get to choose what, when and most importantly _how_.
|
| Most of the conflicts I had with my SO regarding chores were
| about the way things should be done not _if_.
|
| Also it helps to assign responsibility - I have a friend who
| went as far as starting a family JIRA instance(it's frer for
| teams of up to 10). It's likely that it saved his marriage.
| jeffbee wrote:
| Divorce seems preferable to a marriage based on Jira.
| nicoburns wrote:
| How often can lead to big disagreements though. For example,
| Some people feel like hoovering is something that needs to be
| done everyday. For others, once a month might be sufficient.
| csw-001 wrote:
| My spouse is into having things very, very clean (from my
| perspective, at least). When we moved in together (over a
| decade ago) we negotiated household duties - basically wrote
| them all out and ranked them by how much we hated doing them,
| then optimized the division of labor to achieve least total
| pain...
|
| Here's the thing - in that process we found fundamental
| disagreements on what's important to clean up in the first
| place. Life's too short to make beds... Rooms have doors for a
| reason... listing out what we each expected really helped
| launch a conversation about compromise about doing things at
| all, as much as it did who would do things. I'm a lot cleaner
| now because I know exactly what she wants, and she's a lot more
| flexible and accepting of my messes because she knows it's not
| my default and I'm trying for her.
| ordu wrote:
| Read Skinner. Conditioning can do wonders. You can train people
| like you train dogs, though there is a catch: people must not
| notice that they are being trained.
|
| From ethics standpoint it is an arguable approach, so you need
| to think before choosing this path. I believe that something
| can be done about people not noticing the training, if you
| manage to frame this training in a manner that doesn't reject
| their illusion of a free will. But I'm not sure, because never
| tried. Though when you openly thank people for their help, it
| is a kind of reinforcement, and therefore conditioning. But it
| works worse then when reinforcement sneaks in without
| consciousness noticing it.
| NhanH wrote:
| That's literally a plot line for an episode in Big Bang
| Theory, turn out Sheldon has good social skill after all.
|
| Life is arts huh.
| Bancakes wrote:
| I find this very manipulative. You change the world to fit a
| person, who ends up consuming his circumstances. The whole
| point of growing as a personality is _wanting_ to grow and
| learn. People should know what their issues and blockades
| are, and put effort into it, so that they may teach others
| their findings and methods.
| ordu wrote:
| Yes, it is very manipulative. It is the ethics issue I
| mentioned above. It can change your attitude to your
| partner in bad ways. It will lead to a disaster if your
| partner find out about the manipulation.
|
| _> The whole point of growing as a personality is wanting
| to grow and learn._
|
| No it is not the whole point. I don't want to make all the
| chores myself also. I don't want to fight over chores, to
| make my partner to do some of them.
|
| Though I agree, it would be nice to find such a way, that
| doesn't have the ethics issues, and moreover not just train
| a partner to do chores, but makes him a better personality.
| mamcx wrote:
| A simple one: Instead of everyone do a little of everything
| every day: I do all food and cleansing today, and you tomorrow.
|
| The "day off" (days off if wanna doit in blocks) is the reward!
| imgabe wrote:
| Hire a cleaning service
| hackernewds wrote:
| It's impossible
| virtualritz wrote:
| > [...] rinses the dishes for the dishwasher [...]
|
| Is that a thing in the US? My current dishwasher is from 2015,
| stock standard Ikea.
|
| I never had to rinse anything for it to come out sparkling clean.
| Even in the fast program that only runs 64mins.
|
| The other day I had an Airbnb guest from NYC and I saw him
| rinsing. And when asked why he told me that was necessary because
| the dishwasher couldn't cope with it otherwise and stuff would
| come out dirty.
|
| He looked perplexed when I told him no dishwasher I used for over
| twenty years required rinsing beforehand.
|
| Is this 'rinsing requirement' an urban myth sticking around in
| some areas of the world?
|
| Edit: I live in Berlin but have been living in Australia, the UK,
| Japan and Italy over the last two decades. No dishwashers in the
| apartments I lived in in those countries required rinsing either.
| beckingz wrote:
| At a job back in school for a German Historical Institute in
| the US, I started rinsing dishes and my manager said "You don't
| need to pre-wash, it's a German Dishwasher"
| newaccount74 wrote:
| If I rinse the dishes, I can use the 20min express program and
| dishes are sparkling and dry. I use that program because
| plastic stuff dries better than with the standard program, and
| we often have more dishes than fit in the dishwasher and I
| don't want to wait an hour.
|
| Also, some foods (egg yolk, dried porridge) don't come off in
| the dishwasher.
| bhdy55 wrote:
| Do you run the dishwasher as soon as you put items in it, or do
| put items in throughout the day but not run it until it's full?
|
| I wonder if some of the disagreement over this is because food
| becomes more stuck on the longer one leaves it, and so rinsing
| is needed if you are not going to start the dishwasher for
| another 12-18 hours?
| virtualritz wrote:
| I run it when it's full. I am single and have a dishwasher
| that is big enough for a family of four (came with the
| apartment I'm renting).
|
| So I run it once every 3-4 days on the quick program when it
| is full. Some dishes will then have sat in it for up to four
| days ofc.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| From my experience, rinsing doesn't seem to have much of an
| effect, no matter how long the food stays in the dishwasher.
| I use long cycles though, maybe short cycles benefit from it.
| Scraping other the trashcan is useful to avoid clogging the
| filters if your dishwasher doesn't have a shredder.
|
| Sometimes, dishes don't clean properly, usually, it is
| because the dishwasher is not loaded properly, or overloaded,
| but when it isn't, simple rinsing typically wouldn't have
| helped, and washing the dishes before putting them in the
| dishwasher makes you wonder why use a dishwasher in the first
| place.
|
| I am aware that commercial dishwashers are a completely
| different things. These things usually run much more
| aggressive, faster cycles and they are more about sanitizing
| than washing, so vigorous rinsing may be necessary.
| xboxnolifes wrote:
| > Is that a thing in the US
|
| For the most part (ignoring old/damaged washers) it's just a
| holdover from the older generation. My parents and their
| parents did it, and I expect many of my cohort follow through
| by example. However, I do not rinse and the results come out
| the same.
|
| The only caveat being that you will still get dirty spots if
| you over fill or place poorly certain shaped things. This
| happens regardless of rinsing, and I believe contributes to the
| myth
| culopatin wrote:
| My garbage whirlpool dishwasher looks to be from the 90s and a
| cheap version from back then. I can put a clean plate in it and
| it might come out dirty. Also part of the rental and my
| landlord is impossible to deal with so here we are.
|
| It doesn't have a removable filter, just some sort of grille in
| the back that I have to clean between loads and the shitty
| texture makes it grip crap like Velcro, not fun.
| andrewflnr wrote:
| A lot of us are still stuck with old, crappy dishwashers. With
| mine you're lucky if they come out clean even with rinsing.
| tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
| No rinsing, even when I let the stuff dry up. Doesn't matter if
| you select a fast or slow program either, with one exception:
| The EU mandated "eco" program that is by law the default. Avoid
| that at all costs because you'd have to run it twice.
| thrower123 wrote:
| Dishwasher soap in the US is garbage now, so you have to scrub
| anything that might possibly stick on, despite the wash cycle
| on my dishwasher taking nearly two and a half hours.
| uxp100 wrote:
| I live in the US, never pre rinse, used cascade platinum or
| some homemade mix of washing soda and essential oils I
| received as a gift, both work great, dishes are very clean in
| the machine.
| virtualritz wrote:
| I do not think the soap is such a factor.
|
| The tabs I use are environmental friendly. I.e. no
| phosphates, no palm oil, no chlorine. The wrapper dissolves
| in the machine (an algae-based polymer similar to what is
| used for capsules to deliver meds).
|
| The packaging says:
|
| 15-30% bleaching agent based on oxygen.
|
| <5% non-ionic surfactants
|
| phosphonates, enzymes (protease, amylase), perfume
| Belphemur wrote:
| Dishwasher in the US and Canada are using hot water instead of
| cold water that is managed by the dishwasher.
|
| Because of the quality of the water heater and the time it take
| for hot water to reach the dishwasher you have inconsistent
| washing.
|
| Also most US brand of dishwasher rely on plastic components so
| I'm pretty sure they can't heat as well as full aluminium one.
| bentcorner wrote:
| I love this video:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04&t=0s
|
| Dishwasher pods are heavily marketed in the US and actually
| wash more poorly compared to plain powder. With pods the pre-
| wash ends up running without detergent, so rinsing off dishes
| becomes necessary.
| Wowfunhappy wrote:
| Consumer Reports disagrees. Not all dishwasher pods rank
| better, but pods consistently make up the vast majority of
| their top picks, or they have at all of the times I've been
| subscribed.
|
| (I usually buy a month of access every couple of years or so.
| Mostly to see the updated dishwasher detergent reviews tbqh.)
| elpatoisthebest wrote:
| I wonder if Consumer Reports has done this test since they
| tweeted this response and compared the pods to detergent
| using the pre wash dispenser.
|
| https://twitter.com/ConsumerReports/status/1341067270219591
| 6...
| pwdisswordfish9 wrote:
| Non-cookiewalled: https://text.npr.org/641266260
| civilized wrote:
| That makes me feel good about having the 3-year-old help with
| pancakes this morning. It became our weekend daddy-daughter
| activity last month. She's always demanding to make pancakes and
| demanding to be involved in the process.
| gkhartman wrote:
| I always thought the allowance system worked ok, but this might
| be better? Starting at around 5yo my parents would reward my
| chores with weekly allowance money (usually a few bucks a week).
| If I neglected my responsibilities, my allowance was reduced that
| week. They would explain the reasoning for the lower reward and I
| would often make it up by doing a different chore. They laid it
| out with an explanation along the lines of: "if you do x, you get
| the pay, if I do x, I keep the pay". Even to a 5yo that just
| seemed fair and it would encourage me to pick up extra chores in
| hopes of getting a few extra bucks. I learned fast that doing
| nothing meant I had little control over the purchase of Batman
| Action figures and video game cartridges.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| As an adult, do you feel like this had any effect on your
| intrinsic motivation levels when tasks are unrelated to
| financial gain?
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| This system completely failed to work for me. Mostly because
| the consequences were too far removed from the actions.
|
| (ADHD throws a wrench into a lot of things.)
| nicoburns wrote:
| This completely failed with me. I wasn't interested in the
| money and was very happy that I no longer needed to do chores.
| My parents abandoned the approach after about 6 weeks.
| spoonjim wrote:
| This works well to get the chore done, as a captive supply of
| low wage labor. If the goal is rather to instill a set of
| responsible habits that will serve the child in adulthood, the
| allowance system might fail when a "Deus ex machina" is no
| longer present to reward or punish.
| kqr wrote:
| Extrinsic motivation (which is what this is) is tricky for
| several reasons.
|
| First of all, it kills intrinsic motivation. Once you start to
| reward someone materially for behaviour, you have to continue
| in perpetuity because they no longer see any reason to do the
| thing "for its own reward", as we say.
|
| Second, you replace an imperative (one washes one's dishes)
| with a business transaction (is the proposed payout really
| superior to the opportunity loss of my time?)
|
| Third, you introduce odd incentives to optimise and find
| loopholes that allow you to get away with as little as possible
| for as much as possible.
|
| It simply becomes a very different game. It seems like that
| worked out for you, which is great, but I'd be very careful
| about doing it with my children.
| andrei_says_ wrote:
| Alfie Kohn's book Punished by Rewards goes in depth with this
| and provides tons of research.
|
| It is mind blowing how ingrained extrinsic motivation methods
| are in our families, culture, and institutions - despite
| being clearly counterproductive and downright harmful.
| Iv wrote:
| Wait, 12 yo in the US don't know how to do chores or do not
| understand how a house is set up?
|
| Ok, I'll give you the Maya method, or the French method, or the
| Japanese method, or the Hacker method, or wherever we figured out
| parenting from in our household:
|
| make kids feel they are part of the adults group. Share tasks,
| concerns, information, understanding. My 7 yo is (clumsily)
| washing his dishes because the rule is that if you don't cook,
| you wash dishes. That before going back to play, we clean the
| table. It is the rule for everyone, adults or kids.
|
| We don't fake enjoyment of the chores, we explain its usefulness,
| we (well, I) do complain a lot about them, and my kid sometimes
| does it too, but still does it without being told.
|
| Kids learn by imitation and they want to belong to your group.
| Give them what they want there. Set the example, be fair, be
| honest.
| kaitai wrote:
| This is part of a larger divide between "childhood" and "real
| life" that we set up to a great extent in the US. Childhood
| innocence is fetishized in the US in a particular way, edging
| very much into what we allow to be taught in schools or
| consider inappropriate in schools. There is a deep emphasis on
| trying to not have kids feel bad and adults project all kinds
| of their own s*(& on that.
|
| It contrasts with a different point of view, that kids are just
| people, and people need to 1) take part in chores and work to
| make life function, and 2) sometimes feel bad because life is
| hard (either feel bad because they messed up, or because
| something happened to someone else). Chores can be fun, chores
| can be a drag, attitude matters -- but in the end food needs to
| be cooked and dishes need to be cleaned, no way around that. I
| think our culture in the US tries to avoid these realities and
| wants children to live a dream. From my point of view, though,
| it is a gesture of respect to include my child in the important
| work of running a house. Moreover, this child will be better-
| prepared for life if they can prepare food, manage a budget,
| fix clothing and mechanical problems, build some basic items,
| etc. I met too many folks in college who couldn't cook rice or
| wash their own laundry. That is not a setup for success. You
| can have a lot more fun if you can make a fancy ramen dinner
| and have your friends over to your crappy apartment that is
| decently furnished because you can manage curtains and
| bookshelves than if you need to pay $$ for all of the above. I
| have as much book learning as a person in the US can expect to
| have, but I really respect the lessons I learned from my elders
| about cooking, cleaning, preparing items from
| nature/fabric/wood, fixing stuff. Those lessons came from
| childhood involvement in chores. They carried over quite well
| to an engineering school education and then into the corporate
| world (see "tech debt").
|
| My kid spent the weekend playing, learning how to change tires
| on the car, mixing pizza dough and getting toppings together,
| cleaning the living room, watching Disney music videos (no no
| no), and planting seeds for our seed starting. Just do stuff as
| part of life and include the kid to the extent they can
| participate.
| TheDesolate0 wrote:
| furtive808 wrote:
| This can also be learned later in life. As a teen I didn't help
| much or complained and expected compensation for chores. When I
| joined the army you were expected to always pitch in, and there
| were no janitors, so you're always cleaning and maintaining
| things yourself. Fast forward 25 years and I'll be the first to
| volunteer to do dishes, will see a floor or vacuum without
| asking, and always willing to pitch in on a hard, physical task
| without hesitation.
| saiya-jin wrote:
| Imagine you without that army training. Most humans don't go
| through one. Or a training that prefers slackers, pretenders,
| intense drinking/smoking, bullying (ie Russian style is exactly
| this and it shows when SHTF).
|
| Its simply better for given person and society overall to learn
| these things as a kid, learning gets harder as we age and this
| is no different.
| gregwebs wrote:
| This is kind of a sample of the author's book on her experience
| learning and applying non-western parenting approaches from
| traditional cultures, which is well worth reading (or listening
| to on Audible). The book is titled: Hunt, Gather, Parent but she
| actually only visits one hunter gatherer group.
| UnserMannInK wrote:
| Is it just me or does the article only mention female examples? I
| specifically searched for ,,boy" and ,,son", to no avail.
| gumby wrote:
| Most of the article was the author writing about her own
| personal experience, and she appears to have but one child, a
| daughter. The other examples seemed coincidentally (to me) also
| to be about daughters. So I suppose no.
|
| But if it makes you feel better, I have a son whom we raised
| this way and he is the same. This was also how it worked at
| school, at least in Vorschule and Grundschule. That could be a
| German cultural thing -- the US seems to have that kind of
| thing backwards.
| aaron695 wrote:
| gilbetron wrote:
| Ah yes, the "kids would love chores if only parents did it
| right!" argument. I assume all readers in this thread love doing
| all of their chores all of the time. "Yay, I can't wait to clean
| the litterbox again!" "Oh good, I get to clean all of the dishes
| again!" "Sweet, it's 95F out and I get to mow the lawn!"
|
| Seriously? I can get some simple joy from doing some chores, but
| most of them I'd happily give up. Kids aren't dumb, they figure
| things out real quick. They are also wired like their parents,
| and so if the parents like to do dishes and vacuum, the kids are
| likely to enjoy the same. I hate, and have always hated, mowing
| the lawn. I've done it for the vast majority of my life. Try to
| engage my son all you want, and he'll still hate it. Some people
| love mowing the lawn, I wish I was one of them!
|
| Parenting is tough - read articles like these, try the techniques
| out, but don't feel bad if it doesn't work out. 99% of this
| content has been useless to me, but I do find 1% that helps. Just
| don't beat yourself up over it if it doesn't work.
| saiya-jin wrote:
| If you hate mowing the lawn, its guaranteed to be obvious for
| any keen observer. Children are super-observers (especially
| compared to what many expect from them due to their age and
| appearance).
|
| It may very well be that kid took their attitude from you, good
| or bad doesn't matter. From evolutionary point of view it also
| makes more sense than any other possibility.
| hackernewds wrote:
| Most of the comments here are discussion about the title, and not
| the podcast itself
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