[HN Gopher] Auto dealer Napleton fined $10M for illegal fees and...
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Auto dealer Napleton fined $10M for illegal fees and discrimination
Author : zachshefska
Score : 44 points
Date : 2022-04-02 15:54 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.ftc.gov)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.ftc.gov)
| rkuester wrote:
| These guys screwed me over in exactly this way when I bought a
| car from them three years ago. I raised hell when the deal I was
| asked to sign was for ~$2k more than we negotiated, but they
| wouldn't budge. I should have walked away, but it's hard when
| they spring it on you at the last second after you've spent hours
| getting to that point. Before I left their lot, I pulled the
| license plate frames with their name off the car and made a show
| of throwing them in showroom trash can. I told them they had sold
| a car, but I would forever tell everyone I know how shady they
| were.
|
| I'm happy to see this.
| zachshefska wrote:
| I'm sorry you had that experience. I've helped dozens of people
| buy cars from them and they are notorious for this. It's a
| shame, most dealers do this crap. It's ridiculous.
| ourmandave wrote:
| The $10M fine is going directly to their victims. Maybe you can
| get part of it.
| ahmedalsudani wrote:
| +1 they literally did the exact same thing to me a few months
| back. I'm still trying to get my money back from them.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| You will want to contact the FTC Consumer Response Center
| (877-382-4357) to receive information for applying for
| restitution as part of this action.
| rkuester wrote:
| Thanks for the heads-up!
| zachshefska wrote:
| OP here: I run a popular youtube channel helping people get fair
| car deals (search YAA). We are building a crowdsourced database
| of reviews to find dealers who are doing this type of stuff:
| https://joinyaa.com/car-dealer-reviews/results/
| ahmedalsudani wrote:
| Thank you OP. Wish I had found you earlier this year before
| buying a car from them!
| notimetorelax wrote:
| I wonder how this is not a felony charge?
| noasaservice wrote:
| It's about rich people and C levels.
|
| Those people are nearly immune from criminal wrongdoings.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| As long as they're screwing over regular folks. Mess with
| other rich people and all bets are off. E.g. Elizabeth
| Holmes.
| ghastmaster wrote:
| It is a civil violation not a criminal violation.
| ccleve wrote:
| Fraud is criminal. They should have filed criminal charges.
| ghastmaster wrote:
| My original comment was misinformed. I did not realize the
| full scope of civil law.
|
| According to 815 ILCS 505 there are only three defined
| instances that warrant a felony charge and this is only if
| there is a previous conviction(misdemeanor).
|
| I'll leave it to you to show me where in the U.S.C. there
| is an opportunity to charge them with a felony.
| ccleve wrote:
| 18 USC 1001, plus others. Mail fraud would be one
| vehicle. Also conspiracy.
| tptacek wrote:
| Does the FTC accuse them of lying to federal authorities?
| That's what 18 USC 1001 is about. (It's Ken White's
| archetypical example of a bullshit statute, for what it's
| worth).
| ccleve wrote:
| Exactly. Their revenues are approximately half a billion
| dollars. The 10 million-dollar fine will do nothing. A few days
| in jail for the senior people would have a much bigger effect.
| kcb wrote:
| Buy a Tesla. Its the only way to put a stop to this.
| erdos4d wrote:
| Buy a 10 year old cheap Honda and drive it until it dies. Buy
| it from a person. Flash the $90K you saved at the Tesla owners
| as you drive by.
| mirceal wrote:
| flash the public address of your bitcoin wallet. hahahahahaha
| kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote:
| Or from any number of "no haggle" dealers. There are plenty.
| bool3max wrote:
| Lmao
| megablast wrote:
| Buy a bicycle. It puts a stop to this and doesn't pollute.
|
| The number one cause of micro plastics near waterways comes
| from car tires.
| longtimelistnr wrote:
| No it's not, and I'd actively encourage not buying a Tesla
| splitstud wrote:
| kcb wrote:
| Then continue the fever dream nightmare that is the car
| dealership.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Walk into a dealer and say "I will pay that price on the
| window, but on the condition you won't even _try_ to upsell
| me in F &I." Aside from a minority of shady dealers, most
| regular car dealers will smile sweetly and tell you where
| to sign and who to make out the check to.
|
| Tesla just formalizes this by forbidding negotiation. Some
| people like that. But historically people _like_ to
| negotiate on big purchases. It 's a game, how close to
| invoice can you get, etc. Can't really have it both ways.
|
| And frankly, most people like to pick from inventory, too,
| and have options. Tesla doesn't carry inventory nor do they
| really have much in the way of options. They're catering to
| a niche. People who are okay with a limited selection and
| are willing to wait.
| shiftpgdn wrote:
| That is such a naive take. If you promise to pay MSRP
| they're going to do everything possible to take you as a
| mark. No honor amongst thieves.
|
| Buy a Tesla.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| LOL. I work with dealers as part of my job. They're just
| going to sell you what you want. The easiest marks are
| the folks who think they know how to negotiate. If you
| are straightforward and you follow through, they aren't
| going to screw around trying to get another few bucks,
| they're going to take the sale.
|
| Don't just go make Elon richer.
| kcb wrote:
| >Walk into a dealer and say "I will pay that price on the
| window, but on the condition you won't even try to upsell
| me in F&I." Aside from a minority of shady dealers, most
| regular car dealers will smile sweetly and tell you where
| to sign and who to make out the check to.
|
| Every dealership I've been to will nod their head then
| precede to upsell you in F&I. They'll make sure you don't
| actually get to F&I until you've been their for 5 hours
| where you're so tired, hungry, and agitated you just want
| to gtfo with your car. That's not to mention todays
| market where every dealer acts like and prices like its a
| privilege to be able to pay them $50,000+ for a vehicle.
| mirceal wrote:
| where are you people buying your cars?
|
| (setting aside the pandemic)
|
| you always want to do your research before ever going to
| a dealer, any dealer. after that you go and see the car +
| test drive it.
|
| after that you talk $$$. if you drag this process for
| more than 30-40 min or try stupid stuff, as a customer I
| will get up and walk. Also for my last car the dealer had
| a guy that was assigned specifically for internet sales
| and I actually saw the car in person + worked out all the
| details through email.
|
| again, as a customer (minus the pandemic shiftshow which
| will eventually die down) you have the power to decide
| what is and what is not acceptable.
| wbl wrote:
| Just walk away.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| Start a stopwatch when you sit down. Tell them they have
| 15 minutes to complete the sale or you walk. They can
| save time by discarding the upsells you're going to
| decline.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Start a stopwatch when you sit down_
|
| In this car market they'd be crazy to give up a car
| without upselling, given manufacturers' prohibitions on
| raising prices.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| That's a fallacy. It's kinda like thinking a real estate
| agent is always going to get you the best price. No, he's
| going to get whatever results in a guaranteed sale right
| now. Dealers are no different. Sure, they'll sell the car
| to someone else if you walk. But you're _right there_ ,
| paying the price they asked for. They're not going to
| quibble over F&I.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| I find that if you play no games and you are completely
| honest about your intentions, they'll just do what you
| want. If they start to act a little shady, just get up
| and head for the door. You'd be surprised how quickly the
| sales guy (or F&I, same difference) gets the picture. You
| don't let a sticker price customer walk over some missed
| upsells. Source: I work for a company that writes
| software for dealers, I pick up a lot of insider
| knowledge along the way, including strategy. And I've
| bought like 30 cars over my life. These days I just get a
| price by email and then walk in to grab the keys. I
| rarely have to stand up and walk towards the door,
| because I know who the shitty dealers are in the area and
| I avoid them. Most of the major manufacturer dealers
| aren't particularly shady.
| tptacek wrote:
| You know you don't have to finance a car with a dealer
| loan, right?
| tptacek wrote:
| I bought my last car (an Audi) at Carmax. Got within
| spitting distance of the price I wanted from their list
| price. A week later, they listed the same car in a higher
| trim. Carmax swapped the cars; I just paid the difference.
| It was like buying a TV at Best Buy. But with a better
| return policy.
|
| I don't think you have to buy a Muskmobile to avoid
| rapacious dealers.
| [deleted]
| WaxProlix wrote:
| Good to see action that actually protects the interests of the
| little guy. Seems like a rarity these days - to the extent that I
| almost find the good news suspect - but I'll take the W and move
| on.
| ourmandave wrote:
| What's sad is their Better Business Bureau rating is A+.
|
| The customer review rating however is 1.22 out of 5.
|
| https://www.bbb.org/us/il/oakbrook-terrace/profile/new-car-d...
| lordofgibbons wrote:
| The BBB is a for profit company who's customers are businesses
| not consumers so I'm not surprised by this rating.
| function_seven wrote:
| Serious question: Was the BBB always a joke? I remember 30
| years ago it was generally regarded as a trusted and neutral
| entity. Much like Consumer Reports still is. (Yeah, people have
| their quibbles with CR's methodologies and verdicts, but I
| don't see anyone question their integrity)
|
| But now I wonder if we (or just I?) were all just too
| unsophisticated to see that BBB had been captured by the
| businesses they purport to review.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| They've always been the OG Yelp protection racket.
| ben1040 wrote:
| >According to the complaint, the dealerships would often wait
| until the end of the hours-long negotiation process to sneak junk
| fees for add-on products and services into consumers' purchase
| contracts, which often run as long as 60 pages. These junk fees
| were often added despite consumers specifically declining the
| add-ons or having confirmed prices that did not include the add-
| ons. In other cases, the consumers were falsely told the add-ons
| were free or were a requirement to purchase or finance their
| vehicle.
|
| The F&I office at a car dealership is just such a terrible place.
| Even if they're not outright trying to cheat you like this, they
| flood the zone with fast talk about options and numbers, with a
| healthy dollop of scare tactics to get you to buy "protection
| plans" you don't need. It's this bizarre mix of complimenting you
| _and_ insulting your intelligence -- "you seem like a smart guy
| so I'm sure you're looking at the extended protection plan!"
|
| Everything else aside, buying a Tesla was refreshing because I
| was able to buy a new car on the internet like I'd buy a new
| blender on Amazon. No "the price is this if you finance and that
| if you don't," no push for warranties or prepaid service plans,
| and no obfuscation around finance rates and payments, etc. I
| ordered and paid for the car online, went to the store to unlock
| it with my phone, and drove off.
| SilasX wrote:
| >The F&I office at a car dealership is just such a terrible
| place. Even if they're not outright trying to cheat you like
| this,
|
| Yeah, my reaction to that rap sheet was, "wait, that's illegal
| and actually enforced"? Um FTC, you've got a realllllly long
| list ahead of you. (Not that it's a bad thing to actually
| enforce this stuff.)
| TheJoeMan wrote:
| These ads for AutoTrader are so funny though because it's "we
| don't add hidden fees" instead it's "we bought Kelly Blue book
| so now our prices seem to be fair but are probably the same $2k
| higher anyways".
|
| Glass prison or dirty prison? I suppose it depends on one's
| confidence in wading through the scammers but getting a better
| deal. Find cars that have been on the lot almost 30 days - they
| need to dump them before the dealer has to pay the bank.
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(page generated 2022-04-02 23:02 UTC)