[HN Gopher] Psychedelics May Ease Cancer Patients' Depression, A...
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Psychedelics May Ease Cancer Patients' Depression, Anxiety
Author : andrewl
Score : 100 points
Date : 2022-04-02 15:00 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.washingtonpost.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.washingtonpost.com)
| turing_complete wrote:
| How about better treatments for cancer? Not dying might help with
| anxiety too.
| scarecrowbob wrote:
| Not dying in general is an admirable goal; yet even if you can
| fix the cancer part of the equation those of us who don't get
| cancer will eventually die.
|
| Could just be an assumption on my part. Maybe we will fix the
| "dying" part of the issue as well.
| LocalH wrote:
| I don't think we want to "fix" dying. Some evil, sociopathic
| human somewhere would figure out a way to use that to harm
| people in a very profound way. I would also have to imagine
| that immortality would eventually become quite boring, even
| absent something like that.
| scarecrowbob wrote:
| I agree.
| adamredwoods wrote:
| I agree. As someone who is dealing with a loved one with
| metastatic cancer, the depression and anxiety for everyone
| involved is off the charts.
|
| The idea around this solution, is it is something available
| now, so not a lot of research or costs need to be invested to
| get it going. Whereas immunotherapy or CAR T-cell therapy is
| still ongoing research and investment.
| TruthIsHeresy wrote:
| As someone who has received a tremendous amount of healing and
| comfort from psychedelics (in particular psilocybin mushrooms), I
| sincerely hope that legal psychedelic treatment becomes available
| before it's too late for the depressed, anxious, and law abiding
| loved ones in my life. My Dad has a lot of health issues and
| struggles with depression and anxiety that becomes quite
| crippling at times. It has caused a great deal of pain for my
| family and I over the years. I've always thought that he would be
| an excellent candidate for psychedelic treatments but the
| legality and negative stigma attached ensures he will never
| become one.
| 52-6F-62 wrote:
| It's legal in Canada in a limited fashion to licensed suppliers
| and therapists.
|
| I've had similar experiences and I'm excited about the
| possibilities.
|
| The stigma might take a while to go away for some people who
| have been so conditioned that "drugs" are for "burnouts" and
| "frying brains", but there is real work being done in the space
| by compassionate and very smart people.
|
| I'm sure it's a growing field elsewhere too.
| paskozdilar wrote:
| One of two things will happen, depending on whether a drug is
| inherently harmful or not:
|
| 1) if a drug is inherently harmful, its (ab)users will not be
| able to reach any influential position in society, and the
| stigma will stay
|
| 2) if a drug is not inherently harmful, a certain percentage
| of its users will reach influential positions and thus remove
| the stigma by _being_ the proof of its harmlessness
|
| For some drugs, like meth and heroin, 2) will most likely
| never happen. Those drugs are very hard to control and have a
| tendency to take over users' lives, rendering everything else
| in their lives irrelevant.
|
| For other drugs, like marijuana, we are already seeing 2)
| happening in many countries around the world, including USA
| and European Union.
| ada1981 wrote:
| Hitler was a pretty regular drug user of both meth and
| Heroin.
| travisjungroth wrote:
| This argument doesn't seem sound. Stigma for drugs
| increases and decreases over time. That wouldn't happen if
| it was a question of the drug being inherently harmful or
| not. You seemed to have missed a third case of opponents of
| a drug becoming more powerful than its users and
| sympathizers. See US prohibition of alcohol and the global
| criminalization of many drugs in ~1971.
| novok wrote:
| Meh meth is prescribed for some adhd cases today and those
| people are totally functional and fine. Same with their
| other cousins. Same with painkillers.
|
| Its just they have abuse potential, especially opioid's,
| and that is why you have to be careful about it.
|
| Its the entire schedule 1 bullshit that prevents usage of
| some, and those are political.
| throwaway684936 wrote:
| Methamphetamine is perfectly safe when used correctly.
| The problem, obviously, is trust and self-control.
| Because it's so potent and crosses the blood-brain
| barrier easier, IIRC it has less intense physical side
| effects compared to the equivalent (in terms of mental
| effects) D-amphetamine dose.
|
| https://psmag.com/social-justice/the-many-surprising-
| health-...
| burner556 wrote:
| Desoxyn (meth) works the best out of all adhd meds for
| me. Magically light and effective touch.
| travisjungroth wrote:
| It has the best patient rating of any drug.
| https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/know-your-
| amphetamines...
| Jerrrry wrote:
| Meth is less neurotoxic/harmful than MDMA.
|
| It is far more powerful, and cheaper, and prevents sleep -
| that is the most dangerous. The tendency to re-dose is high
| enough to be difficult for low-willpower people to not
| succumb to.
|
| Heroin, opiates, and opoids, can also be used with a
| relatively decent risk-profile. The potential for addiction
| is higher, once tolerance is established.
|
| Xanax makes meth and heroin look like kid's toys.
|
| Don't take Xanax except for when you genuinely feel like
| you may hurt yourself.
| state_less wrote:
| It's a travesty magic mushrooms are classed schedule 1. It's
| difficult to abuse them, since tolerance builds rapidly. There is
| evidence of medical use for treatments and they can be taken
| safely under medical supervision.
| stocknoob wrote:
| It's infuriating that something helpful to so many suffering
| people was made, and continues to be, illegal. Imagine
| meditation is made illegal, on the off chance someone may have
| a psychiatric breakdown when doing some introspection.
|
| It changes your perspective on the government and its actual
| role in society (dismissed as counter-cultural thoughts), which
| may be another reason they are banned.
|
| You realize you're in a fairly constrained and random system
| where might (money, status, power) makes right. Sure, fine, it
| may be true, but let's not pretend there's some deep moral
| justification for the forces in power to be there. They got in
| first.
| [deleted]
| richardfey wrote:
| What if they work on any human being in that way and not just
| cancer patients?
| Epiphany21 wrote:
| They do. But the only way to get legislators to budge is by
| appealing to their owners directly. Psychedelics will never be
| legalized unless it benefits big pharma.
| stadium wrote:
| There is momentum growing in Washington State (US). A
| therapeutic use bill SB 5660 didn't leave committee but led
| to some funding for additional studies. [1]
|
| Separately, ADAPT-WA filed a ballot initiative and will be
| gathering signatures to get it onto the ballot. [2]
|
| If someone was inclined to do mycology research there is a
| plethora of information here: https://www.shroomery.org/
|
| [1] https://www.marijuanamoment.net/washington-state-
| legislature...
|
| [2] https://adapt-wa.org/
| leonidasv wrote:
| And also to convince the public opinion.
|
| Saying that psychedelics may help some depressed patients
| will instantly prompt the defense "but we already have tons
| of antidepressants to give them, with a diverse range of
| mechanisms of action; psychedelics cause schizophrenia bla
| bla".
|
| By pushing the focus towards cancer, which is a more
| sensitive topic, people is more prone to make some
| concessions. That applies to legislators too.
| embedded_hiker wrote:
| Psilocybin for mental health treatment has been legalized in
| Oregon though a voter initiative. The new law requires a lot
| of administrative setup and therapy is not yet available
| however.
|
| https://www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/PREVENTIONWELLNESS/Pages/Orego.
| ..
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| If you have a 20$ bill and decent friends, bootleg therapy
| is available pretty much anywhere and anytime you want it.
| blueprint wrote:
| or maybe we should stop playing a rigged game and install
| real representatives but what the hell do i know
| emilfihlman wrote:
| Fuck. Cancer and dying are fucking scary.
|
| On the other hand why should we take away ourselves in the end,
| on the other hand if they are dying anyways, it's easier on
| drugs.
|
| I just hope that this doesn't turn death less meaningful.
| john-doe wrote:
| https://archive.ph/6rUUC
| root_axis wrote:
| I am skeptical of this. I have personally witnessed psychedelics
| enlightening minds, but also destroying them. I am also concerned
| with the reliability of evidence from psychedelic trials since
| I'm not clear on how a double-blind study could be conducted. At
| the end of the day, I'm fully in support of continued research,
| but I am hesitant to accept the kind of dramatic outcomes
| suggested by these studies.
| ada1981 wrote:
| Has this been in the care of an experienced sitter or guide?
| root_axis wrote:
| These are subjective credentials, but IMO yes, and I've seen
| on several occasions an experienced sitter fail to prevent a
| bad trip. I don't blame the sitter for this, and we were
| always aware of the importance of set and setting, but it's
| my opinion that we are far less in control of the outcome of
| a trip than I think most pyschonaughts are willing to admit.
| ada1981 wrote:
| Any experienced sitter would have prepped someone with the
| idea that there are no "bad" trips, just difficult ones.
|
| They would have prepared someone to navigate that terrain
| and having come out the other side, the tripper would be
| able to see the importance of it.
|
| This is part of the mindset piece -- proper preparation,
| navigation and integration are needed.
|
| If one is able to understand that, it can help!
|
| Thank you for sharing your story.
| throwaway684936 wrote:
| > I have personally witnessed psychedelics enlightening minds,
| but also destroying them.
|
| As with any drug. Any drug that can heal can also hurt. All
| drugs are a risk. Compare the rare side effects of psychedelics
| to the horrible (and also rare) side effects like Stevens-
| Johnson syndrome that you'll see in pharmaceuticals, the same
| ones that save people's lives.
| root_axis wrote:
| > _Compare the rare side effects of psychedelics_
|
| I don't know if we have enough scientific data to say how
| rare they are. My anecdotal experience (including my own as
| an individual afflicted by HPPD) makes me believe they are
| not as rare as is often suggested.
| travisjungroth wrote:
| > In the past, I might have said to her, "Dying is natural; it's
| part of the human experience," but without this experience, it
| would not have landed well. She had to feel this in her whole
| person, not just as an intellectual or philosophical exercise.
|
| This seems to be a big part of the magic of psychedelics. So many
| mental issues are cognitive. It's not always happening at the
| chemical level. Why would it be in a person who has a healthy
| brain, but their depression came on with their terminal cancer
| diagnosis?
|
| The problem is cognition is really hard to change. Especially in
| adults and especially when things are going badly. The overall
| effectiveness of talk therapy is not great.
|
| Psychedelics break down our normal barriers so we can truly
| _know_ the things other people have been telling us and we've
| been telling ourselves. (Or they put us in contact with spirits
| that gift wisdom. Six of one, half a dozen of another). I talked
| with someone with OCD who finished a trip thinking "just because
| my hand touches my phone doesn't mean it's dirty". A simple
| statement, but he had contact OCD and this had been a huge
| problem. Something about the message "coming from inside the
| house" made it work.
|
| One thing I almost never see mentioned in these articles about
| terminal patients with psychedelics is the concept of the
| afterlife. Mushrooms are so Earthy, it's like they tell you that
| heaven is returning to the soil. Other psychs (DMT, ayahuasca)
| can give you a picture of where your spirit goes after it splits
| from your body.
|
| Aside from whether these spiritual beliefs are _right_ they're
| certainly less depressing than what the average American is
| walking around with. There's "sleep and never wake up". There's
| "heaven, maybe, I think. But lots of people going to hell I
| guess", and then, probably the most common case: "who the fuck
| knows?". A bit anxiety inducing, really.
| jsnodlin wrote:
| netizen-936824 wrote:
| >So many mental issues are cognitive. It's not always happening
| at the chemical level.
|
| As a biochemist with a passion for neuroscience, I entirely
| 100% _do not agree_
|
| The statement doesn't even make sense to me. All cognition is
| based on the dynamics happening at the biochemical level. _All
| of it is chemical_
|
| All of our thoughts and behaviors are the product of chemical
| reactions and interactions which determine the behavior of
| individual neurons and their networks. You literally cannot
| separate those things.
| SnowHill9902 wrote:
| So theoretically you could know what your wife wants for
| dinner by solving the Schrodinger equation?
| netizen-936824 wrote:
| Essentially, yes. Although we don't fully understand the
| system so we can't model it just yet
| saltcured wrote:
| Even though we know our computers are "all electrical" in
| nature, don't we admit that there are software/state problems
| which can exhibit themselves even if every part of the
| computer is functioning correctly as an individual electrical
| component? You cannot find the broken part to fix which will
| resolve the problem that emerges from an unfortunate set of
| values stored in the circuits.
|
| I think that is the metaphorical mapping intended by the
| earlier poster, that a problem can be cognitive rather than
| chemical.
| netizen-936824 wrote:
| I think the distinction in this case is that software is
| not an emergent property that directly arose from the
| mechanisms of circuits.
|
| Neurons are different than circuits, as their chemistry and
| physiology _does_ change with various inputs. That 's
| actually how a decent portion of the computation happens.
|
| My disagreement is with the fundamental assumption that the
| brain is just hardware on which the software of the mind
| runs. This is not accurate at all, the chemistry and
| physiology of the brain is _everything_
| pharrington wrote:
| The comment you're replying to simply describes emergence.
| netizen-936824 wrote:
| Emergence still depends on the underlying mechanisms
| thirdwhrldPzz wrote:
| Humans have longed relied on metaphor and analogy to provide
| context. Chemistry is a contextualized generalization of
| certain physical phenomena.
|
| Neurons are just temporal spatial events of various
| mathematical parameters; gradients and ranges of heat, light,
| etc.
|
| Everything is some form of "how matter happened to coalesce
| relative to light during $arbitrary_date_time_range"
|
| Or it's all the specialized language of chemistry and
| biology.
|
| Six to one, half dozen to another. Normalizing the
| descriptions isn't proof of correctness, it's a specific
| normalized set of glyphs to simplify communication.
| travisjungroth wrote:
| Yes it all happens as chemistry. I mean the cause of the
| problem isn't always what we would normally call "chemical".
| That's what I meant by "happening at the chemical level".
|
| I'm just drawing a distinction between something like
| depression caused by a B12 deficiency and depression caused
| by the loss of your spouse. Thinking can't fix B12, but
| sometimes it helps with loss.
|
| If I try to word it better, would you agree that sometimes
| mental health issues are caused by biological problems and
| sometimes by events in our lives and how we think about them?
| netizen-936824 wrote:
| I'm not sure I could agree with that. What I could agree
| with is a statement that live events can alter our
| epigenetic regulation mechanisms which impacts our neuronal
| chemistry which can alter our thought processes and
| behaviors.
|
| At the end of the day its still chemistry, and at the end
| of the day chemistry is still physics, and as far as I've
| learn physics is deterministic. We can't separate our
| conscious experience from these underlying mechanisms
| because our entire existence is based on their rules. The
| brain is not a construct on which the software of the mind
| runs, it _is_ the mind.
| cf141q5325 wrote:
| Kicked my alcoholism and depression almost 3 years ago on
| accident with a recreational mushroom trip on holiday. Still
| doing great in both regards.
|
| Two short bits of information. First dont screw around wit this.
| Set and setting. Understand what will happen and better get an
| experienced trip sitter you trust. Give at least The Psychedelic
| Explorer's Guide a read.
|
| And while my urge to drink is still completely gone you have to
| do some work when it comes to depression. From personal
| experience i can say it works on multiple layers. There is
|
| * Giving you a short term point of reference you can later aim
| for (experiencing how not being depressed looks like)
|
| * Making changes to your entrenched thought patterns more easy in
| the short term
|
| * Allowing for more self reflection (i later learned the
| cognitive behavioral therapy aims at something similar)
|
| First point also got me to look into meditation. Eckhard Tolles
| Power of Now describes the same experience through meditation. In
| the end its no surprise that Timothy Leary found the Tibetan Book
| of the Dead a great trip sitting manual. See Sam Harris Waking up
| for a rational explanation.
|
| edit: After talking with a few people who had bad trips my
| personal pet theory is that your likelihood drastically increases
| if you are overly attached to your own perspective. To the degree
| that you cant really imagine that your perspective on reality
| could be wrong. Not that this is safe otherwise, but be very very
| careful if that describes you. You are the kind of personal for
| whom anything on the spectrum to ego death might be very
| unpleasant.
| benevol wrote:
| This has been known for literally about 2 decades.
|
| (Keywords: Dr. Gasser, LSD, Switzerland, depression, cancer,
| study, 1998)
| dakom wrote:
| I know it's uncool to take the contrary view on this, but I've
| had enough bad trips from ludicrous fleeting thoughts...
|
| Actually dying seems like the worst possible "set and setting"
| _if it goes bad_
|
| I don't think we really have the tools to know how it will affect
| a person, and it's a bit risky imho.
|
| (Fwiw, although I don't imbibe anymore and it's been somewhere
| around a couple decades, I do think it's a personal choice, and
| should definitely be available to someone on their deathbed. I am
| just saying I'd personally abstain, _especially_ in that
| situation)
| ada1981 wrote:
| This is why being with an experienced sitter is so important.
|
| They can help you face the feelings underneath the thoughts and
| hold you in the experience.
|
| I've sat for hundreds of hours of trips; including being the
| first person to do so on National TV in an underground setting;
| and I run a Breathwork group called BioMythic.com - having a
| sitter who can support you is a key part of a healthy set &
| setting.
| whalesalad wrote:
| Psilocybin is the greatest thing that ever happened to me. If you
| are at the lowest of lows and don't know where to turn, I highly
| recommend it. You can grow them yourself at home. The experience
| of turning spores into fruits is rewarding in and of itself, let
| alone the powerful medicine you will have a virtually limitless
| supply of.
| netizen-936824 wrote:
| In my opinion this is very poor advice
|
| Please do not use psychedelics of any sort if you are suffering
| from depression _without the oversight of a medical
| professional_ such as a psychiatrist or psychologist
|
| A negative mindset can be heavily amplified through the use of
| serotonergic 5ht2a agonists, this can lead to disastrous
| consequences
| beaker52 wrote:
| This is worth saying again.
|
| DO NOT use psychedelics without medical oversight if you're
| at rock bottom. You ideally need to be strong enough to take
| some unexpected punches, and be in charge of an open,
| welcoming mindset.
|
| I'm bullish on the potential of psychedelics. I'm interested
| in finding work in this area to support it.
| whalesalad wrote:
| I disagree with the notion that all things must be "left to
| professionals" - I have been let down by others more times
| than I can count. There are ton of abusive and incompetent
| therapists/psychs out there.
| netizen-936824 wrote:
| Its not about being left to professionals. This advice is
| to prevent suicide attempts by individuals who are feeling
| extremely negative with no hope. Psychedelics amplify your
| current state of mind. This means negative thought patterns
| are amplified, so an individual who may not have been
| suicidal previously may become so especially if they are
| alone.
|
| Personally I think psychedelics should be freely available
| to any human that wants them, however I'm also aware of the
| dangers that these compounds can present and as a society
| we need to be aware and prepared to face these things. That
| includes the awareness that one should be careful about
| their mindset when they decide to use such a powerful tool.
|
| I also agree that there are incompetent professionals, but
| this isn't about competency. Its about preventing suicide.
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