[HN Gopher] I couldn't get over my brother's death
___________________________________________________________________
I couldn't get over my brother's death
Author : dnetesn
Score : 222 points
Date : 2022-03-31 10:46 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (nautil.us)
(TXT) w3m dump (nautil.us)
| werber wrote:
| I have more dead friends than living, and I have spent the last
| several years trying to heal, and mostly succeeding. Sometimes
| the only thing you can do is cry, and while I'm not a single
| parent, I have accepted that there are so many things in the
| world that are going to bring me back to so many dark places,
| but, for me, I always have a song I can play and cry to and come
| back to life. Because, I wan't to live the hell out of the time I
| have left.
| everyone wrote:
| "I made pottery and then smashed it. I patiently sat with jigsaw
| puzzles and coloring books. I went into the forest with a
| chainsaw, cut down invasive species and set them on fire. I
| devoted hundreds of hours to punching pads and round-housing bags
| at the local mixed martial arts gym. I zombie-watched TV shows
| and absently scrolled the internet."
|
| Thats way more than most people do. Most people just goto work
| then go home for tv and food. Also, she seemed to be fit and
| could also afford a bunch of therapy, so relatively speaking she
| was doing extremely well.
| davesque wrote:
| I think I had a similar reaction to my mother's death, although
| hers was drawn out over a period of years; a lost battle with
| breast cancer. I think I only miss her more with each year. It's
| been 7 years. Part of the trouble I think was that some important
| people around me basically collapsed from grief. And so it felt
| like the entire family just sort of disintegrated when she died.
| No way to process any of what happened. Just a lot of denial. The
| way things happen on the Hallmark channel is a sort of sickening
| caricature.
| temp0826 wrote:
| There are types of therapy that specifically work with grief
| (ranging from woo-woo to clinical). I think they are worth
| looking in to if you are debilitated by grief. Yes, taking time
| to process tragic/traumatic events is normal, but you should not
| forfeit the rest of your life to them. Not to be "that guy", but
| on the more adventurous (and imo more effective) side of things
| is ayahuasca, kambo, mdma, and/or mushrooms.
| CapmCrackaWaka wrote:
| My father died when I was 7. It was years of therapy and being an
| angry child, without the maturity to know where to direct my
| angry energy. If I didn't have an extremely active, attentive
| mother, I would no doubt be in a gutter somewhere right now.
|
| Looking back, I can distinctly recognize the stages of grief,
| even from when I was a child. They almost exactly line up with
| the 7 stages that therapists tell you about. I remember them all,
| one after the other. I literally remember bargaining with god to
| bring my father back.
|
| That experience, and recognizing grief for what it is, has made
| family deaths much "easier". My grandfather just died a few
| months ago. First death of someone close I have experienced in 24
| years. Of course I still grieved, but it was much easier this
| time. Recognizing the grieving process, and being able to
| understand that what you are feeling is natural, are extremely
| important to getting through it.
|
| Grief is something that people just don't understand until they
| are floored by it one day. And it can last years. I'm glad
| society is more openly discussing how difficult it is.
| scruple wrote:
| My best friend committed suicide at the start of the 5th grade.
|
| He was a very troubled boy. His parents were both killed on
| impact by a drunk driver when he was 3. He was sent to live with
| his paternal grandmother (one of our neighbors) but she was
| elderly, retired, and resented him and, unbeknownst to me (but
| not to my parents, I learned later on in life that they were
| trying to adopt him), she was abusing him.
|
| There were hushed whispers amongst the parents in the
| neighborhood that she may have actually killed him but, as far as
| I know, it was never officially investigated. She died less than
| a year later, anyway.
|
| I remember the last time that I saw him. We often spent our
| entire weekends together, he practically lived at our house from
| Fridays after school until Sunday evening. I remember the week
| that followed his death. Every detail. And then my life gets hazy
| for a couple of years.
|
| But I came out of it around the 7th grade and was doing well
| academically and in sports.
|
| Then it happened again in the 8th grade.
|
| My friend and his girlfriend were sexually active and thought
| (incorrectly) that she was pregnant. He couldn't handle the
| response he got from his parents when he delivered the news and
| so he stayed home from school on a Monday and shot himself.
|
| I stopped giving a shit about academics at that point but I kept
| up the sports, mostly in honor of my friend because we were on
| the same teams, both ran in the 4x400, etc. The sports forced me
| to keep my GPA above a 2.5 or whatever. That connection to my
| friend through athletics is probably the only reason I graduated.
|
| In retrospect, I was deeply depressed. Around 14/15, I turned to
| alcohol and drugs to self medicate. It took me a long time to
| recover mentally.
|
| My parents tried to get me into therapy but it didn't work for
| me.
|
| I've never really felt any closure with these events and, while
| they don't haunt me, they do remain with me 3 decades later.
| smhinsey wrote:
| I had two of my closest childhood friends die when I was young.
| It was a much different situation to yours, but I just wanted
| to say I know what that's like. I'm not haunted by it either,
| but it stuck with me in that it made it really hard for me to
| make friends again afterwards. I hope you are doing better
| these days.
| th3h4mm3r wrote:
| Hey. Life is a mistery. And it's a miracle every single
| millisecond of our life. If one day we'll discover all the phisyc
| behind our existance and behind the universe, life will continue
| to be a question. So don't think about death, because he's only
| another status of existance. Nothing else.
| jschulenklopper wrote:
| This is an article that resonated with me in handling another
| kind of loss: https://whatsyourgrief.com/growing-around-grief/
|
| Lois Tonkin described a model that grief doesn't shrink - what
| seems to be a common thought, and also mine - but that your life
| around that grief grows to become larger. So, handling loss is
| less about "moving on" and more "moving with".
| dorfsmay wrote:
| That's part of why societies have, or used to have, codified
| mourning time. Give enough space to let you sink in the
| emotion, but then draw a line in the sand and get back on with
| life.
| LiquidPolymer wrote:
| I pulled myself out of a family riven with poverty, addiction,
| bankruptcy and bad choices. My father died at 40. It was not a
| surprise to me when my brother, high on something that made him
| delusional, pulled a gun on a police officer that had pulled him
| over for speeding. He shot the officer multiple times. The
| officer survived with multiple debilitating injuries that made
| him unable to work again. My brother died.
|
| The emotional devastation for my mother has been the hardest
| thing and my steady presence and support is something I'm proud
| of. My principal emotional response was extraordinary anger. I'd
| had multiple conversations with my brother about the dangers of
| his path that were ignored. I'm angry that he could be so
| thoughtless about our mother. I hate to say it but after my
| initial grief, "good riddance" was my response.
|
| Eleven years later the grief is still raw for my mother. She is a
| vibrant and intelligent woman who was handed a raw deal in life.
| I'm trying my best to make up for that. I support her and manage
| her affairs. When I reflect on it my anger at my brother deepens.
| I don't let it consume me. I can't. I'm the sole surviving male
| in my family.
| aaaronic wrote:
| There's no sense in getting madder at him each time you think
| about it. You might want to try to find a way to forgive him or
| at least let go of some of your own anger at his choices. It
| really can eat you from the inside.
|
| Kudos to you for looking out for your mother. I'm the sole
| person who can look after my own and I only hope I have the
| strength to support her when the time comes.
|
| It sounds like both of you could benefit from grief counseling,
| even this long after the fact.
| simonebrunozzi wrote:
| From what I read in your comment, you seem to be a deep,
| thoughful, strong human being, and your ability to respond so
| responsibly to a devastating set of issues is remarkable.
|
| I have a brother; it's really hard for me to try to imagine
| being in your same situation. I have serious doubts that I
| would be able to properly support the remaining part of my
| family.
| sonicggg wrote:
| zeristor wrote:
| Memento Mori:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memento_mori
|
| This figured in Renaissance Art. I remember seeing Holbein's The
| Ambassador's.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ambassadors_(Holbein)
|
| There's a skull in the picture but you have to be at an awkward
| angle to see it, I thought it was a gimmick; on reflection though
| if you have to make the effort to see it it is going to make you
| think about more deeply, rather than just another object on a
| table.
|
| Talk about Ambassadors these days and people may think of the
| Ferro Rocher advert.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| I think Holbein just wanted to show off his mastery of the
| gimmick to other artists?
| Simon_O_Rourke wrote:
| When my father was in declining health, his brother came to our
| home and started shouting at us about his medical treatment and
| overall decline.
|
| He passed less than three months later, but none of us have
| forgiven or forgotten, and will never see him again.
|
| Another uncle, who was a major league a-hole heard about father's
| decline, and studiously avoided visiting us while he was ill.
| Another one I will never speak to again.
| slv77 wrote:
| The reactions to my mothers death were similar if less extreme.
| I was struck how few of the stream of visitors helped alleviate
| pain and how many simply made it worse.
|
| Some of the well wishers would want an explanation for her
| passing, others wanted assurances that we would be okay, others
| studiously avoided us, others would unleash a torrent of grief
| and we'd end up comforting them.
|
| I realized that in most cases these seemingly bizarre reactions
| were peoples attempts to manage their own emotions. Those
| looking for an explanation were mostly needing assurance that
| it could happen to them. Those wanting us to tell them we'd be
| okay that we'd be okay we're looking to manage the pain they
| were feeling due to empathy.
|
| I also realize that my community didn't really know how to
| comfort someone in their grief or pain. They simply lacked the
| ability to emotionally regulate themselves enough to support
| someone in their grief. These were all good people but somehow
| most lacked the ability to feel empathy, feel the grief and
| pain while also being able regulate their own emotions enough
| to simply stand with the person going through it. It seems that
| this is a rare skill as valuable as gold.
|
| Maybe it is because death these days is a rare event and our
| immense privilege means that we don't learn those skills while
| we're are young and when we're older there is nobody left to
| model it for us. Maybe our natural wiring for empathy and
| mirroring others emotions isn't the panacea that we've been
| told it is and people need to learn other skills, compassion
| maybe? I simply don't know.
| smeej wrote:
| "Ring theory"[0] was one of the most important things anyone
| shared with me when my sister died.
|
| Tl;dr: Whoever was the closest to the deceased is in the
| innermost ring, perhaps a spouse, a parent, close siblings
| (in my case, my sister's husband).
|
| The next ring is the people next-closest, in this case, my
| mom.
|
| The next ring includes the next-closest people, like me, my
| brother, my dad, etc. And the rings keep going outward.
|
| Here's the rule: You can dump absolutely any pain, need, or
| struggle you have on anyone who's in a farther/larger ring
| than you are. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE are you allowed to dump
| anything on anyone in a closer ring. Support works one way in
| the ring. The outer layers support the inner ones. ONLY.
|
| Very early on, I relayed this to one of my sister and
| brother-in-law's friends and asked him to make sure anybody
| who wanted to connect with us understood. He did it
| masterfully, and I recommend tucking this theory in the back
| of your mind somewhere for when you need it.
|
| [0] https://www.everhomehealthcare.com/post/ring-theory-and-
| sayi...
| to1y wrote:
| >You can dump absolutely any pain, need, or struggle you
| have on anyone who's in a farther/larger ring than you are.
|
| I think you may have to have more consideration than that.
| jzh wrote:
| Alright, here goes. I'm old. What that means is that I've
| survived (so far) and a lot of people I've known and loved did
| not. I've lost friends, best friends, acquaintances, co-workers,
| grandparents, mom, relatives, teachers, mentors, students,
| neighbors, and a host of other folks. I can't imagine the pain it
| must be to lose a brother. But here's my two cents.
|
| I wish I could say you get used to people dying. I never did. I
| don't want to. It tears a hole through me whenever somebody I
| love dies, no matter the circumstances. But I don't want it to
| "not matter". I don't want it to be something that just passes.
| My scars are a testament to the love and the relationship that I
| had for and with that person. And if the scar is deep, so was the
| love. So be it. Scars are a testament to life. Scars are a
| testament that I can love deeply and live deeply and be cut, or
| even gouged, and that I can heal and continue to live and
| continue to love. And the scar tissue is stronger than the
| original flesh ever was. Scars are a testament to life. Scars are
| only ugly to people who can't see.
|
| As for grief, you'll find it comes in waves. When the ship is
| first wrecked, you're drowning, with wreckage all around you.
| Everything floating around you reminds you of the beauty and the
| magnificence of the ship that was, and is no more. And all you
| can do is float. You find some piece of the wreckage and you hang
| on for a while. Maybe it's some physical thing. Maybe it's a
| happy memory or a photograph. Maybe it's a person who is also
| floating. For a while, all you can do is float. Stay alive.
|
| In the beginning, the waves are 100 feet tall and crash over you
| without mercy. They come 10 seconds apart and don't even give you
| time to catch your breath. All you can do is hang on and float.
| After a while, maybe weeks, maybe months, you'll find the waves
| are still 100 feet tall, but they come further apart. When they
| come, they still crash all over you and wipe you out. But in
| between, you can breathe, you can function. You never know what's
| going to trigger the grief. It might be a song, a picture, a
| street intersection, the smell of a cup of coffee. It can be just
| about anything...and the wave comes crashing. But in between
| waves, there is life.
|
| Somewhere down the line, and it's different for everybody, you
| find that the waves are only 80 feet tall. Or 50 feet tall. And
| while they still come, they come further apart. You can see them
| coming. An anniversary, a birthday, or Christmas, or landing at
| O'Hare. You can see it coming, for the most part, and prepare
| yourself. And when it washes over you, you know that somehow you
| will, again, come out the other side. Soaking wet, sputtering,
| still hanging on to some tiny piece of the wreckage, but you'll
| come out.
|
| Take it from an old guy. The waves never stop coming, and somehow
| you don't really want them to. But you learn that you'll survive
| them. And other waves will come. And you'll survive them too. If
| you're lucky, you'll have lots of scars from lots of loves. And
| lots of shipwrecks.
| ben174 wrote:
| some great copypasta from reddit way back when. I've sent this
| to many people to help them deal with grief. The original
| author is /u/garysully1986 and is still active I believe:
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/garysully1986/comments/6g3brt/gsnow...
| barry-cotter wrote:
| > GSnow on Grief
|
| > Alright, here goes. I'm old. What that means is that I've
| survived (so far) and a lot of people I've known and loved
| did not. I've lost friends, best friends, acquaintances, co-
| workers, grandparents, mom, relatives, teachers, mentors,
| students, neighbors, and a host of other folks. I have no
| children, and I can't imagine the pain it must be to lose a
| child. But here's my two cents. I wish I could say you get
| used to people dying. I never did. I don't want to. It tears
| a hole through me whenever somebody I love dies, no matter
| the circumstances. But I don't want it to "not matter". I
| don't want it to be something that just passes. My scars are
| a testament to the love and the relationship that I had for
| and with that person. And if the scar is deep, so was the
| love. So be it. Scars are a testament to life. Scars are a
| testament that I can love deeply and live deeply and be cut,
| or even gouged, and that I can heal and continue to live and
| continue to love. And the scar tissue is stronger than the
| original flesh ever was. Scars are a testament to life. Scars
| are only ugly to people who can't see. As for grief, you'll
| find it comes in waves. When the ship is first wrecked,
| you're drowning, with wreckage all around you. Everything
| floating around you reminds you of the beauty and the
| magnificence of the ship that was, and is no more. And all
| you can do is float. You find some piece of the wreckage and
| you hang on for a while. Maybe it's some physical thing.
| Maybe it's a happy memory or a photograph. Maybe it's a
| person who is also floating. For a while, all you can do is
| float. Stay alive. In the beginning, the waves are 100 feet
| tall and crash over you without mercy. They come 10 seconds
| apart and don't even give you time to catch your breath. All
| you can do is hang on and float. After a while, maybe weeks,
| maybe months, you'll find the waves are still 100 feet tall,
| but they come further apart. When they come, they still crash
| all over you and wipe you out. But in between, you can
| breathe, you can function. You never know what's going to
| trigger the grief. It might be a song, a picture, a street
| intersection, the smell of a cup of coffee. It can be just
| about anything...and the wave comes crashing. But in between
| waves, there is life. Somewhere down the line, and it's
| different for everybody, you find that the waves are only 80
| feet tall. Or 50 feet tall. And while they still come, they
| come further apart. You can see them coming. An anniversary,
| a birthday, or Christmas, or landing at O'Hare. You can see
| it coming, for the most part, and prepare yourself. And when
| it washes over you, you know that somehow you will, again,
| come out the other side. Soaking wet, sputtering, still
| hanging on to some tiny piece of the wreckage, but you'll
| come out. Take it from an old guy. The waves never stop
| coming, and somehow you don't really want them to. But you
| learn that you'll survive them. And other waves will come.
| And you'll survive them too. If you're lucky, you'll have
| lots of scars from lots of loves. And lots of shipwrecks.
| [deleted]
| stevewodil wrote:
| >The waves never stop coming, and somehow you don't really want
| them to. But you learn that you'll survive them. And other
| waves will come
|
| We can't control the sea, but you can learn to surf the waves
| asiachick wrote:
| I'm sympathetic that there is grief in losing someone but I
| always find it strange when it lingers long. The person grieving
| is not honoring the person (or animal) they are grieving for. If
| the person they are grieving for saw them grieving they'd be
| upset and say something like "Move on! We had good times. Now go
| forward and have more good times! Every time you continue to
| grieve you're actually hurting me and the memory of me so stop
| it! You're also hurting yourself and you know I wouldn't want
| that. Go and have a new life!"
|
| I'm sure easier said than done. Maybe long term grief is a
| disease or something. Still, there's logic (to me at least) that
| your long term grief is dishonoring the very person your grieving
| for. They'd hate to see you in this state and would love for you
| to be happy.
|
| I lost my father 3 months ago. Yes, I miss him. I have lots of
| good memories. But he'd not be happy to see me grieve long term.
| sammalloy wrote:
| This article duplicates, almost word for word, and action for
| action, a death in the family that impacted a friend of mine. She
| was devastated by her grandmother's death, and had a similar
| reaction to it, attempting suicide and changing her life in so
| many different ways. I've tried for some time to make sense of
| her experience, but I really can't because it's not mine and is
| so divergent from my own life. This author has done a great
| service trying to describe and communicate the problem to those
| of us that haven't been down the same road.
| alduin32 wrote:
| I lost two of my close cousins, my aunt and my uncle to suicide
| (one by one, at Christmas each time) when I was a teenager, ~10
| years ago.
|
| I didn't feel anything at first, except guilt. I felt guilty
| because I was not feeling sad while others were crying around me.
| I felt guilty because we all felt that it was going to happen,
| but didn't do anything to prevent. The only survivor of the
| family, my cousin, never got over it, and after that she
| attempted suicide multiple times, surviving until last year.
|
| I also felt a lot of guilt because at that time (and since then),
| I was depressive and had very frequent thoughts of suicide. I've
| seen first-hand what it did to my family, and to myself and I
| don't want to cause that for anyone.
|
| These last years, I realized that I'm isolating myself a lot
| more, from friends, from my own family, from... everyone, because
| I don't want to hurt people : if it ever happens, the less people
| I know, the less damage it will do. And I can't talk of it to
| anyone I know.. I think of the guilt they would feel if it
| happened after I had told them of my intentions.
|
| Since I was young, I've had this thing where I have lots of
| trouble handling my emotions, sometimes explode in anger and
| start being very violent to myself, wounding me and endangering
| my life. Since last year, I've managed to control this a lot
| more, and now I haven't hurt myself intentionally since 14
| months.
|
| It may seem like a good thing, and at first it did, but I feel
| like it was my way to express that something was very wrong and
| that I was thinking of taking my own life. Now I don't have that
| anymore, I cry everyday, never see anyone.
|
| These dark thoughts start making me more and more anxious, each
| morning, every day. I've gone from thinking about the
| consequences to others, the usual thoughts about your own
| funeral, to thinking to my cold body rotting in this shitty room
| I rent, and becoming completely desensitized to that thought.
|
| I don't know what to do. I feel like I'm stuck in "limbo". I
| don't enjoy life, I'd prefer quitting, but I'm unable to do that
| because I don't want to hurt my family & friends. But since I'm
| also completely isolating myself, I suppose it still hurts them.
|
| I think that someday it will happen, it feels like I'm getting
| closer and closer each year. I've had a few moments where if it
| could have been easy, simple and painless, I know I'd have done
| it.
|
| I don't want to be the death that someone couldn't get over.
| Ruined lives should not be transitive.
| throw_suicide wrote:
| SunlightEdge wrote:
| My brother killed himself when he was 25, and I was 23. I've
| never really known how to talk about it/him with people. I
| sometimes wonder what he would be like now if he hadn't done it,
| but mostly I don't think about him - unless I'm talking with my
| mum. I don't think I'll ever really get over it. But yeah, it's
| not really something to talk about. Life can be hard, and sadly
| there is suffering and tragedy in every family.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| "But yeah, it's not really something to talk about."
|
| I think it is. But it has to be the right person and the right
| time. Some are fine opening up to the whole internet, I
| certainly would not (and did not).
| ISL wrote:
| Agreed -- talking about things really can help. Sometimes
| you'll unexpectedly discover that talking about things isn't
| just helpful for you, but also for the person on the other
| side of the conversation; at some point, everyone's working
| through something.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| Personally I never liked the idea that one should "get over" the
| death of people who really take central roles in one's life. It
| in my mind cheapens what relationships are and that for many
| people a lot of relationships are final and so is losing them,
| there is simply no replacement for everything and there shouldn't
| be, it would be weirdly robotic.
|
| So personally as I get older and people die I think grieving and
| having that 'weight' with you is normal, I couldn't imagine that
| losing a brother, or a wife, or decades long friends is something
| to get over with. I think it's important that people who have
| problems functioning get help but I'm not sure there's a lot of
| need to pathologize that kind of grief wholesale which seems so
| common nowadays.
| Baeocystin wrote:
| I lost my older brother when I was in my early 20's, and both
| my parents has since passed as well.
|
| I don't like the phrase 'get over' either, but you absolutely
| have to come to terms with the loss. Carrying the weight
| forever _is_ pathological.
|
| Everyone and everything you know will die. Yet I find ways to
| both enjoy life, and help others with theirs. Grief will still
| find you at times. Let it wash over you, and on. You will
| remain. What, then, to do with your time?
| srrge wrote:
| I don't remember who said it, but there's two things you can't
| really accept from a brother, their glory and their death.
|
| Not 100% relevant with the original post, but reading it reminded
| me of it.
| lordnacho wrote:
| A few months before covid, a little girl from my kid's school
| died of cancer. I went to the funeral and felt sadder than ever,
| despite not knowing the family. It felt so awkward shaking hands
| with the father at the wake. I was imagining my own kids dying.
|
| Around this time, I also learned of the death of some
| schoolmates, kids that I knew growing up but wasn't close with. A
| suicide and two murdered, seemed quite unlikely but it happened.
|
| This turned out to be the prelude to a number of deaths in my
| family.
|
| My uncle got a brain tumor. I flew to the bay area to see him for
| the last time. It seemed bad, but he could still walk.
|
| My father passed away, slowly and suddenly. He'd been in and out
| of hospital with "the everything": COPD, IHD, diabetes, just
| everything that happens to you when you don't watch what you eat
| and don't exercise. It was never going to end well, but it also
| doesn't have to end at any particular visit to the hospital. I
| literally have a photo of the last thing he ate, which turned out
| to be the thing that killed him.
|
| A few months later, the family chat lit up. I have this massive
| set of cousins, and when something happens they write. I started
| reading the "With great sadness..." message, thinking this will
| be uncle having passed. I screamed. It wasn't my uncle. It was my
| 36 year old cousin. He died of a heart attack overnight. We ended
| up doing the funeral on zoom. I still remember the last shot of
| him in the coffin, he looked like me, same haircut (bald) and
| same face.
|
| Not long after, my mom's sister phoned her. She wanted to cheer
| her up by having her come visit. She'd been locked up in the flat
| since the lockdown, but now things were easing. She went to see
| her sister and they both caught the virus. It's weird when
| someone goes to hospital with covid. To start with, chances are
| you just need some oxygen and then you'll get better. That seemed
| to be the case, but they kept her there a bit because they
| weren't sure. Then they put her in intensive. At this stage,
| there's a significant chance of dying, but probably not huge.
| Then they put her on a ventilator, where I think it's a coin
| toss. Then she flipped tails.
|
| I talked to a grief guy, which I think helped. He'd sort of seen
| it all before, in terms of how your relationship with your loved
| ones might have been. It's also useful to remember the highs and
| lows. I've been lucky, it's mostly been positive, can't really
| think of anything terrible in my childhood.
|
| Several friends lost a parent in the months after my mom passed.
| It was good to be able to talk them through things. Both on a
| practical level ("this is how you do a funeral, this is how you
| do the paperwork"), but also on an emotional level, particularly
| reliving memories about the person. We've all met the parents of
| our friends and like our own parents you more or less assume
| they'll be around forever, until they aren't.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Man that's a rough period for you. I've gone through similar,
| the deaths tend to cluster. My dad was a pretty weird guy but
| he had some interesting insights, and one of them was "the only
| real sign that you get older is how often you have to wear
| black, and then one day they'll be wearing black for you, but
| don't let it get you down, it is _the_ reason to live as if it
| really matters ". At 9 I didn't really know what to do with
| that information but now that I'm 57 it rings quite true.
|
| Hang in there!
| higeorge13 wrote:
| In the age of 22 and within 2 years, i experienced loss of my
| younger sister, my first love, a beloved cousin and the only
| grandmother i have ever met. I literally don't remember anything
| from these 2 years, only that i was like a skeleton and i have
| forgotten how it is to be naively happy and careless. I
| suppressed my feelings for more than 10 years, until another
| traumatic event released everything x100000 times worst. I seeked
| therapy and finally feel happy about myself, but really wish i
| should have done it back then. The pain is still there, but at
| least i don't blame myself for any of it.
| ada1981 wrote:
| What a painful story.
|
| I was disappointed to see that she appears to have not been given
| the option of Transpersonal therapy : medicine, aka psychedelics.
|
| Keeping in mind these diagnosis only really exist in the DSM and
| are a sort of short hand for trying to make sense of symptom
| clusters, PTSD is remarkably treatable w psychedelics.
|
| And if you don't want to take an illegal drug, or wait for a
| clinical trial, Breathwork often works just as well.
|
| (Feel free to join our sessions as a VIP at BioMythic.com).
|
| Also, Oxytocin can be quite useful is helping grief life,
| Although it's rarely prescribed for it.
|
| You can hack that system via cuddle therapy or you can buy
| Oxytocin nasal spray and nebulize it (it is powerful and I owe
| the community a full write of my reckless experimentation with it
| - but it's certainly safer than suicide).
|
| And as always, reach out to me directly if you need to talk or
| want guidance.
| tarun_anand wrote:
| I saw the title of this post, once, twice... and thrice... I kind
| of sensed what was on the other side...I didnt want to click and
| read it because I was/am still going through the same grief.
|
| I lost someone young in my family to Covid last year. The
| chilling words "We have lost him" came on Whatsapp as the entire
| country was in lockdown and we were in a different city. I cannot
| forget it and keep going over it, over and over again.
|
| I am sharing this to let you know that this happens to a lot of
| us. This grief will not go away. I just relive it everyday for
| some time. I am also a workaholic so it helps that I dont have
| much time to think. Yes, lots of people talk about therapy,
| meditation and a lot of things but I have never found anyone who
| is suffering to have gotten help from these.
|
| Just live with it, what cannot be cured must be endured.
| Hnrobert42 wrote:
| I lost my father and then 10 years later my brother to suicide.
| With my father, I already had a therapist, so I worked through
| it with her. With my brother, I didn't have one and I was about
| to travel alone to a foreign country for a few years. I was
| much more isolated and I explicitly thought, "Nope. I am not
| going to feel this right now."
|
| Grieving my father took 2 years or so to overcome. Grieving my
| brother took about 4 years. They were different situations and
| relationships, so I can't ascribe the difference solely to
| therapy.
|
| I will just say that for me, the only way to get the grief to
| go away is to feel it. Journaling, music, solo hikes, therapy,
| whatever it takes. The nice thing about therapy is that it
| holds you accountable. You have to think about it for an hour a
| week. Now, you can bullshit your way through therapy and stick
| to surface stuff, but then what's the point. If you really
| crack open the shell and let the anger, despair, confusion pour
| out, it will eventually get better.
|
| Either way (therapy or no), it is like a deep cut. There will
| be a scar. It will never go back to how it was before. But I
| hope you find some peace.
| smeej wrote:
| Sometimes it's more like an amputation of an arm than a deep
| cut.
|
| At first, the pain is blinding. All you feel is the pain.
|
| If you can get the bleeding stopped, eventually the pain
| subsides, but things aren't ever really "normal" again. You
| find a new normal. You even learn how to do almost everything
| in your daily life with one arm. You adapt, and you may even
| thrive.
|
| But every so often, something happens and you're genuinely
| stumped how you'll handle it with one arm. It reminds you of
| the loss, and in that moment, the frustration and the loss
| and even the pain comes back.
|
| You'll cope with it, like you coped with learning everything
| else you needed to learn right after you lost your arm, but
| it never goes all the way away. You just get better at living
| with it.
| rland wrote:
| I think this is less a simile and more a physical reality.
|
| What is your arm but a series of sensations and connections
| in your brain? Your arm is a physical thing; but to the
| extent that it exists to you, it exists in your brain.
|
| So I think the loss of an arm is probably very similar in
| an actual not just a metaphorical sense. Although I would
| easily choose losing my arm over losing one of my loved
| ones.
| lanstin wrote:
| That is a tremendously accurate way to describe surviving
| terrible stuff.
| [deleted]
| blinkingled wrote:
| > what cannot be cured must be endured
|
| I would have used the word accepted instead of endured but I
| think you are trying to say the same thing. Enduring involves
| fighting or some sort of friction at least - whereas if you can
| accept that the pain is going to be there you will maybe create
| some space for yourself and some relief. Hopefully.
|
| I'm sorry you have to go through this but never give up trying
| to be at ease.
| tarun_anand wrote:
| Thanks and yes, its clearly an acceptance...
| vasco wrote:
| > Yes, lots of people talk about therapy, meditation and a lot
| of things but I have never found anyone who is suffering to
| have gotten help from these.
|
| I know nothing about your life and I also find the "endure it"
| school of thought very appealing - not sure why. That put, you
| shouldn't discard those options you list without trying them
| yourself - if you haven't yet. What works or doesn't work for
| other people shouldn't matter to you, give it a try, being
| happy is worth it.
| tarun_anand wrote:
| Thank you. I will try for sure. I hope someday this thread
| will be discussed again and I can share my experiences.
| ianai wrote:
| I think sometimes it sort of helps to just run through
| explaining something so many times that I get tired of talking
| about it. It's not quite the same as a "fix", like you said.
| But eventually over enough iterations the story of the
| traumatic event becomes less painful - almost like playing a
| song enough for it to go from "love" to "boring/repetitive".
| the-dude wrote:
| I feel I am still mourning the sudden death of my father, over 10
| years ago now.
|
| I don't really see what is wrong with that, it slowly fades,
| sure, but it does not go away and I am o.k. with that.
|
| There is supposedly a Jewish saying "Someone is only really gone
| when nobody talks about them anymore".
|
| Here, I did it again.
| [deleted]
| smeej wrote:
| Nothing is wrong with that. Anyone who tells you otherwise
| doesn't understand.
|
| May his memory be a blessing.
| stuckinhell wrote:
| This hits too close to home for comfort. My brother committed
| suicide. I still think about him often. In the beginning my
| thoughts were consumed with How could he do to this us? How could
| he be so selfish? Look at what he did to my parents ? etc.
|
| It took a lot of therapy to make me realize, I was being selfish.
| My brother was human being with difficulties and life experiences
| I could never understand.
|
| I like to think I understand it a bit better the difference boys
| face growing up, now that I have a son. Watching his struggles,
| has been really tough. Seeing the deep lack of compassion they
| face. I don't why it never occurred to me that boys have such a
| different childhood experience, I often feel guilty I was not the
| greatest sister. All I can do is try to not repeat the same
| mistakes over again.
| casefields wrote:
| >The so-called 'psychotically depressed' person who tries to
| kill herself doesn't do so out of quote 'hopelessness' or any
| abstract conviction that life's assets and debits do not
| square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing.
| The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain
| unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped
| person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-
| rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning
| windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still
| just as great as it would be for you or me standing
| speculatively at the same window just checking out the view;
| i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here
| is the other terror, the fire's flames: when the flames get
| close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less
| terrible of two terrors. It's not desiring the fall; it's
| terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk,
| looking up and yelling 'Don't!' and 'Hang on!', can understand
| the jump. Not really. You'd have to have personally been
| trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way
| beyond falling.
|
| -David Foster Wallace
| ge96 wrote:
| I was working with a partner in our company closely for a long
| time. To the point of being friends/talking on the phone a lot.
| So his face/data is really integrated into our app/marketing.
| Couple days ago he died and it's so weird... my unanswered text
| asking why he's not at our weekly meeting/if he's alright. And
| every time I see his face in our database/marketing material it's
| so odd like this guy was alive a couple days ago now gone.
|
| My nephew in law/brother (we're roughly same age, grow up
| together as kids) killed himself one night (self inflicted
| gunshot). Again so weird, I was talking to him on snapchat, no
| indication of anything being wrong. Never told me he was having
| problems.
|
| Anwyay it's weird when someone is suddenly just gone. Not sure if
| I should digitally purge them from my sights to not be reminded
| of them or what.
| smeej wrote:
| Maybe not "purge," but it might be helpful for awhile to put
| the pictures somewhere they won't sneak up on you and surprise
| you.
|
| Keep them somewhere you can look at them when _you_ want to,
| but it 's OK to take action not to have to have your guard up
| against waves of grief that could surprise you at any moment.
|
| Random things will surprise you anyway. It's not foolproof. But
| minimizing your surprise surface can be helpful for awhile.
| ge96 wrote:
| Yeah with Android messages it pulled up the text convo
| "follow up?"
|
| I have to nest the images and put them so they don't show in
| the folder preview.
|
| It is interesting the fallout when you suddenly disappear.
| All your accounts/things you used to manage.
| mcculley wrote:
| I have a related issue with my address book and calendar. I
| have always been diligent about putting birthdates in my
| address book. iOS/macOS does the right thing and shows me the
| birthday on the calendar. Every day, one of my favorite
| activities is to look at my calendar and think about
| birthdays for the day or the coming days and send greetings.
|
| I am 50. I have experienced a normal, I think, number of
| deaths among friends and family. At least once a month I will
| be reminded of a birthday for someone who has passed away. I
| am not always happy to be reminded at that moment. I don't
| think there is a straightforward way for me to tell the
| address book that this person is no longer alive. I also
| don't want to remove that data from the person's entry.
|
| As we get more of these digital agents in our lives, they
| will have to be designed with a little more thoughtfulness.
| laurent92 wrote:
| People always say "no indication of anything being wrong." Of
| course. Those who actually intend to commit suicide, hide their
| idea, otherwise someone may make them backtrack. By that, I
| mean, it's not your fault.
|
| I would say yes, you need to remove their photos from most
| places. The happiest people live in the present. The brain
| rehearses negative thoughts because it tries to understand how
| it could have done better, but you have to repeat yourself that
| you had no control over others' lives and let go of the
| continuous thoughts.
| theckel wrote:
| My 4 year old son Michal died 11 years ago and I still grieve him
| every day. It is deep in my bones, an abscess. As this beautiful
| and heavy article describes, the act of grieving became an
| addiction to me. I kept "breaking beautiful things" in my mind
| because living with the ghost child instead of the living world
| kept his memory closer and my hands less shaky. He was an
| addiction, I had rituals I had to do (watch old videos, peruse
| old photos) every day. Without these things, I felt like I was
| betraying him. I fantasized about digging up his bones a lot. All
| a ruse, a cycle in my own mind, designed to soothe an addict
| haunted by his ghost child. A divorce and lots of personal
| writing and tears (and so many years) later, I am in a healthier
| place. But "grief is what love looks like when they're gone" is a
| simple and poignant way to put it: I will always be haunted, and
| I will always love the haunt, but I cannot be owned by him like I
| was for so many years. When he comes to haunt me, I welcome it.
| But unlike before, I don't smother him. Now I let him float away
| too.
| lampshades wrote:
| I can't imagine what you've been through. If anything happened
| to my kids I don't know how I would be able to continue on.
| CharlesW wrote:
| Thanks for sharing this. It really touched me. I wish you
| peace.
| pmarreck wrote:
| As a new father of a 9 month old son, I am so very sorry for
| your loss, because this sounds like a horror. There seems to be
| a pattern of divorce after a child is lost which seems to just
| add insult to injury, I'm really sorry
| master_crab wrote:
| These are beautiful words to remember him by.
| LocalH wrote:
| May the universe shower you in peace and love.
| doodle323 wrote:
| I lost my boys 9 years ago, and I never knew how to put it into
| words. This made me cry.
| theckel wrote:
| We're all wreckage. So much love and peace to you.
| dede4metal wrote:
| Thanks for sharing this. May you find peace and strength
| stenioaraujo wrote:
| Those a beautiful words. And as though those feeling might
| haunt you, I hope you can find and keep the peace for the years
| to come. Thanks for sharing.
| ak39 wrote:
| This is one of the most beautiful comments I have ever read.
| Thank you writing them.
| hlk wrote:
| It's been 23 years and my grief is still fresh as if he died last
| week. I was very young too and I'm realizing these days that I
| didn't even have a chance to grieve while consoling my mom and
| figuring out what I was going to do with my life. I'm glad that I
| tried to stick with the kind of life how my brother wanted me to
| live. I loved him so much that the the excitement and joy I had
| when he visited us is something that I never experienced after he
| passed away. He is still my beacon even though we had only so
| little time together. Thanks for sharing this.
| listless wrote:
| My father died almost a year ago today and I feel nothing. I have
| zero motivation and I'm not interested in anything or anyone. I
| can barely get my work done everyday because I don't give a shit.
| If I didn't have a wife and kids I'd definitely be out wandering
| the Appalachian trail or working the grill in a Waffle House in
| some nothing town just hiding from myself.
| Vaslo wrote:
| When my parents died, I would ask myself- is being sad and not
| moving on with my life what they would want me to do? No.
| They'd be angry and giving me shit about it everyday just like
| I'm sure your dad would do to you. He didn't want to leave you,
| but he had to. Now your life is still here and you need to go
| live it - you better understand than many people how fleeting
| time is.
|
| Don't be afraid to talk to a counselor. They can get you
| talking about it and more at easy with what has happened. Take
| care of yourself.
| adnmcq999 wrote:
| You have to move forward, parents are supposed to die before
| their children and I'm sure he wouldn't want you to react like
| this. Especially since he sounds like he was an excellent dad.
|
| Unfortunately, I don't know how you can regain interest - maybe
| do what you did with your dad with your kids? What about his
| presence made life worth living?
| dijonman2 wrote:
| First step is admitting you need help.
|
| You said you have a wife and kids, let them in and let them
| support you. I went through the death of my parents alone. I
| would have done anything to have someone then.
| everyone wrote:
| Are wandering the Appalachian trail or working the grill in a
| Waffle House in some nothing town bad? If so why? What
| qualifies a town as "nothing"? How can you hide from your self?
| that doesnt make sense. Considering this is HN are you
| currently working as some sort of programmer or business guy?
| if so why is that better than Waffle house?
| lostlogin wrote:
| I don't think OP is making a claim about better or worse. It
| appears to be about getting away and doing something where
| the commitment is minimal and attachment is zero.
| everyone wrote:
| I've carefully arranged my life to be like that. Zero
| responsibilities, zero stress. It's great! Imo it's optimal
| and I don't know why anyone _wouldn 't_ want to live like
| that, other than bullshit peer-pressure or conspicuous
| consumption related reasons like having high status.
| hallway_monitor wrote:
| Sure, this is called being a kid. Zero responsibilities,
| also zero impact on the world. Having a family isn't
| about gaining status, obviously. What I hear is that this
| man's wife and children are the only thing keeping him
| afloat.
| spydum wrote:
| i've similarly architected my life and lifestyle to
| minimize stress and avoid drama. however, zero
| responsibility and zero vulnerability (emotionally) is a
| dangerous place to find yourself, I wouldn't advise
| seeking that out. Easily allows someone to slip into
| depressive state and make bad judgements.
| david38 wrote:
| Consider seeing a doctor. There are some meds that will take
| the edge off. That and lots of working out. I went through this
| once. It wasn't pretty.
| smeej wrote:
| This is better advice than it probably sounds like right now
| too.
|
| When my sister died, my doctor wanted to put me on an
| antidepressant immediately. I told her I wasn't depressed. I
| was having an appropriate grief response to the sudden loss
| of my sister.
|
| But a year later, when I still couldn't bring myself to care
| about _anything,_ including whether my life continued or
| stopped, I decided it was time for a small boost. Raise the
| baseline again. Don 't try to push the grief out, but maybe
| get me just high enough that I _want_ to get out of bed, that
| I _want_ to go outside, that I want _anything_ again.
|
| A year after I started taking meds, things were still hard,
| and I still missed my sister profoundly, but my future wasn't
| blank anymore. I could start to imagine forms happiness might
| take. And I tapered back off the medication.
|
| It's not the right answer for everyone, all the time, but it
| might be the right answer for you, now or soon, for awhile.
| GuardianCaveman wrote:
| Mine died when I was 28. The way I felt was like when you
| finish the video game civilization and can continue playing but
| there's no more winning or point. Emptiness. A few things I'd
| say is one if your mother is still alive don't neglect her like
| I did. Channel your grief into appreciation and love for those
| who are still with, know the pain fades.
| oldstrangers wrote:
| If your first instinct is "be out wandering the Appalachian
| trail", maybe you owe it to yourself to go and do just that.
| Either for a day or a week, but putting yourself in that
| position to fully embrace your grief in a place of your
| choosing might be very beneficial.
| turkeygizzard wrote:
| My dad died unexpectedly recently. For a period, I was hyper
| motivated, but now I'm starting to similarly feel unmotivated.
| I've also thought about just disappearing, but having to be
| there for my mom and sisters has been stopping that thought
| early in the process. I don't know if there's anything I can
| say to help you, but if you want to talk about what you're
| going through, I'm happy to listen.
| nyjah wrote:
| My dad was murdered outside his business just over 19 years
| ago. I wrote about it and shared it on HN at the 10 year mark.
| 10 years was significant to me because when it happened I
| wished 10 years would go by so it would just be normal. But the
| truth is it never became normal.
|
| I wrote this specifically for HN at the 10 year anniversary.
| The link died the day I posted it, but if you go down in the
| comments makeramen posted the full text. I don't know if this
| is helpful at all. But I figured I'd share in case it might be.
| And it's helpful to me to share it.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5313607
| throwaway3b03 wrote:
| I'm so sorry to hear about your loss.
|
| Slightly over a week ago, a car ran a red light and hit my dad.
| He was severely injured and suffered a severe TBI. Doctors were
| giving an unfavorable prognosis. He was in a deep coma, with a
| GCS of ~5. My whole family was in a complete state of shock. We
| couldn't really feel anything. My mom somehow kept repeating to
| herself that he's going to get well, she just couldn't face the
| fact that she could lose him. As for myself, after researching
| every tidbit of information I could find about brain injuries,
| DAI, cases, treatments, I simply couldn't keep my optimism. I
| was very concerned about the very brief information we were
| getting from the doctors. I was perplexed as to why they're not
| actively monitoring his ICP, when his case and most protocols
| would suggest that that was the right thing to do (i'm not even
| sure if they did, they definitely didn't use an invasive
| technique). I was asking left and right about the medication he
| was on, whether he was being given things like amantadine,
| which research seemed to suggest was extremely helpful. I was
| left in the dark. He was given cerebrolysin, OTOH.
|
| I started feeling a huge pain in my chest, and looking forward
| I just couldn't see myself functioning without him. He was and
| still is probably the most important person in my life. I was
| looking back and imagining that him getting well again would
| simply be the happiest, most positive life I could ever
| imagine. The life I used to have before seemed like heaven even
| though I wasn't perceiving it as such at the time.
|
| Our days simply revolved around the visiting period of about an
| hour when we are allowed to visit him in the ICU. They still
| do, but the tension in the air is clearly a lot less intense.
| My dad somehow made great progress. He's mostly lucid now, he
| still can't talk, but we communicate a lot through glances,
| hand holding. He's still intubated, although he can breath on
| his own for hours. And his CTs show a great reduction in most
| of his brain lesion. We're definitely not out of the woods yet,
| but his progress/change is like night and day.
|
| I am (probably) extremely lucky. But our lives will never be
| the same again.
| pmarreck wrote:
| While I don't have much faith in general Level 5 self-driving
| car autonomy, I DO have faith in AEBS (automated emergency
| braking system) and other more-easily-implemented systems
| that would largely prevent the stupidest sorts of human
| errors (like running red lights, stop signs, A-pillar blind
| spots in turns from oncoming traffic/bicycles/pedestrians,
| etc.) Just... basic "harm prevention" tech would go a long
| way IMHO, like the system in Teslas that keeps the interior
| at a survivably-cool temp if it's hot inside, because loving
| parents _can_ and _do_ sometimes still forget their kids
| inside.
|
| I have a friend whose stepfather just got T-boned a few weeks
| ago in #Floriduh by a guy who ran a stop sign "because I was
| running late for work and there usually isn't any cross-
| traffic at that intersection"... Until there is. "How to not
| take bad risks" is something I wish was taught in school,
| because people do not seem to understand how to evaluate risk
| (especially repeated low risk but with very bad outcome if it
| hits). Now my friend's father is still in the hospital as
| well, weeks later.
|
| Sorry for venting. I'm really sorry you're going through
| this, I just wish we were already at the point of preventing
| these dumb errors by people.
| canthonytucci wrote:
| Hang in there. Recalibrating can take a long time.
| [deleted]
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| Our society hides death, and even discomfort. Elderly are placed
| in "homes". Youth is prized, marketed, and heavily skewed in
| media, while old people are only glimpsed or bit characters. A
| glut of entertainment consumes your leisure hours. Family is
| deemphasized. Perspective and reflection are replaced with a full
| schedule and sleep deprivation. We don't spend time in nature, we
| use ac and heat to avoid extremes. We don't exert ourselves,
| don't get hungry.
|
| And then you get hit by the cold hard reality of mortality.
| Grandparents are supposed to die, they look and dress old, but
| you grow up with parents and siblings and friends. You go through
| your youth with the illusion of invincibility and unlimited time.
| They are fixtures in that illusion.
|
| When they die, the illusion of youth permanence, deep in the
| subconscious, is shattered.
|
| But life is about moving forward.
| nyjah wrote:
| My dog died just over a year ago and I'll never get over it. I'm
| going to be old and demented thinking she is right next to me.
| And I semi look forward to seeing her again in that state. I love
| that dog forever and ever.
|
| I've experienced tragedy to close family members as well. For
| everyone the grieving process will be different, but I can't
| believe someone expected it to last 1 year. Thats whats so
| upsetting to me is peoples expectations of how someone will
| handle loss, especially of a human.
| possiblydrunk wrote:
| Same here. 15 years. It's a loss I'll never get over. It will
| be sadder if I do.
| buro9 wrote:
| I have a crude hypothesis that the difference between the old
| and young is the accrual of profound grief.
|
| It never fades, it compounds with the loss yet to come. We
| learn to live with the living ghosts and daily reminders of
| everyone and everything we've ever loved.
|
| Loss and grief is not the same as death, Vonnegut's "So it
| goes" speaks to the sheer overwhelming mass of death constantly
| happening. But grief and loss is deeply personal that it can
| feel isolating.
|
| It feels like only those who have experienced it can really
| understand it... But even then, it is such an individual
| experience that even knowing someone who lives with loss
| doesn't mean it's a relatable thing.
|
| It's such a hard thing that the only thing I've learned is to
| be kind. As we age, everyone we know is carrying loss.
| philwelch wrote:
| I wonder if that explains why people who were chronologically
| younger still look so old in old photographs.
| mynameishere wrote:
| Long exposure times, untreated progressive dental issues,
| dowdy clothes, dowdy hair, etc.
| mgdlbp wrote:
| Evoked memory of these passages from Kim Stanley Robinson's
| _2312_ , on the compounding of this by life extension:
|
| > this culture's structure of feeling could also be called
| balkanized. Gender therapy and speciation were both parts of
| the longevity project, and the combination of the three
| created a new structure of feeling that is often
| characterized as fractured, compartmentalized, bulkheaded,
| firewalled. Usually longevity itself is identified as the
| primary force driving this; until now, no one has had to
| integrate a personality in its second century (or more), and
| often it is experienced as an existential crisis. The super-
| elderly have had so many experiences, gone through so many
| phases, lost so many companions to death or simply time that
| they have grown distanced from other people. Spacers, mobile
| over huge distances, especially bold in trying all the
| augmented abilities, often live as isolatoes, in a
| solipsistic narrative or performance of their own (495)
|
| > She liked her work; she liked her play; she liked her art,
| the play that was work. So it was something else. Really the
| question became quite philosophical; how to be? What to care
| about? And how to become a little less solitary?
|
| > . . . .
|
| > Maybe nothing. There was a pruning of life by death. Parts
| died before the whole. When the people you loved died, part
| of you died. Some people by the time they went were like
| certain junipers she had seen, one live strip on a dead
| trunk. There was no way to counter that. (619-620)
|
| > "Marriage," Swan repeated, marveling at the word. To her it
| was a concept from the Middle Ages, from old Earth--an idea
| with a strong whiff of patriarchy and property. Not meant for
| space, not meant for longevity. One moved through one's life
| in epochs, each a stage in one's history, lasting some few or
| several years, and then circumstances changed and you were in
| a new life, with new associates. That could not be altered,
| not if you were out there riding the great merry-go-round;
| and so to deform one's life in the attempt to make a relation
| last longer than its natural term was to risk wrecking its
| end, such that it splintered back along its whole length and
| left a bitter wound and a sense that it had all been a lie,
| where really there should only be a passing on, in one of the
| little death-and-transfigurations of one's epochs. That's
| just the way it was.
|
| > At least so it seemed to her, and to many others she knew.
| It was the current structure of feeling in her culture and
| time. Spacers were free humans, free at last and human at
| last. So they all felt, and encouraged each other to feel,
| and she had always believed it, always agreed it was right.
| But structures of feeling were cultural, historical; they
| changed over time like people did; the structures themselves
| went through their own reincarnations. So if cultures changed
| over time, and an individual lived on through a change in
| that culture, then... didn't the individual change too? Could
| they? Could she? (621-622)
| tomcam wrote:
| I'm old. Your concept of accrued grief is new to me, but
| resonates.
|
| I have memories of friends and family dying going back a half
| century, but the death of one of my baby chickens a year ago
| still has a profound effect on me. A decade ago I would have
| been pretty surprised by the depth of my grief.
|
| In fact when I talk or write about her death, it sounds seems
| faintly ridiculous. But inside it still exerts a powerful
| weight on my soul.
| missedthecue wrote:
| Abraham Lincoln wrote this letter to a girl who had been
| struck by severe grief following the death of her father in
| the American Civil War. She was so overcome that she had
| locked herself in her room for weeks at a time. It really
| seems to touch on your point here.
|
| _Executive Mansion, Washington, December 23, 1862._
|
| _Dear Fanny_
|
| _It is with deep grief that I learn of the death of your
| kind and brave Father; and, especially, that it is affecting
| your young heart beyond what is common in such cases. In this
| sad world of ours, sorrow comes to all; and, to the young, it
| comes with bitterest agony, because it takes them unawares.
| The older have learned to ever expect it. I am anxious to
| afford some alleviation of your present distress. Perfect
| relief is not possible, except with time. You can not now
| realize that you will ever feel better. Is not this so? And
| yet it is a mistake. You are sure to be happy again. To know
| this, which is certainly true, will make you some less
| miserable now. I have had experience enough to know what I
| say; and you need only to believe it, to feel better at once.
| The memory of your dear Father, instead of an agony, will yet
| be a sad sweet feeling in your heart, of a purer, and holier
| sort than you have known before._
|
| _Please present my kind regards to your afflicted mother._
|
| _Your sincere friend,_
|
| _A. Lincoln_
| smeej wrote:
| One thing I've learned to say is that I don't know _your_
| grief, but I do know great big grief up close, and there 's
| just a difference between people who know and people who
| don't.
|
| I don't even know my brother's grief, even though we lost the
| same sister, because I can't ever know his relationship with
| her from the inside.
|
| Among the most toxic phrases to use with anyone who's
| grieving is, "I know how you feel."
|
| No. You do not. You CANNOT. It is _profoundly_ insulting and
| diminishing to claim you do.
|
| But if you do know great big grief up close, and how to make
| space for it to do what it needs to do by showing up, sitting
| awkwardly in the silence, and just. not. leaving, you can
| really touch someone's soul.
| trentnix wrote:
| _> Among the most toxic phrases to use with anyone who 's
| grieving is, "I know how you feel." No. You do not. You
| CANNOT. It is profoundly insulting and diminishing to claim
| you do._
|
| I find this perspective arrogant, rude, and
| counterproductive. Other people have experienced profound
| grief as well. They are communicating, possibly
| inelegantly, it's possible to get through the grief (what
| better gift can someone offer than hope?) and they are
| making themselves available if you need support. And
| ultimately, they are expressing condolences and sympathy.
|
| Grief should be shared. Grief does not make you special.
| Confronting grief alone is a recipe for depression and
| madness.
| bitexploder wrote:
| Listening to American Gods. One of the interludes puts it
| well. Paraphrasing: everyone is unique, everyone is the
| same. You are both right. However, I do think grief is
| more similar than not. The tragic specific circumstances
| will always vary, but it is always the same. It is a
| loss. A hole. Some people are not prepared, can't be
| prepared. They sink into the narrowness of their unique
| experience and can't or won't permit themselves
| perspective. It is /their/ grief, dammit. Saying you
| understand takes something away from their grieving
| experience. Sneaks perspective in. Hints at the
| commonality of deep grief and loss.
| smeej wrote:
| Say you know grief, then. That's actually true. You know
| how YOU experienced grief.
|
| What you do not know and cannot possibly know is how
| another person is feeling, how they're experiencing their
| own grief.
|
| I post this for all the well-meaning people who are out
| there insulting and hurting people they love because they
| don't actually know any better.
|
| Stop saying you know how they feel. It's one of the most
| hurtful things you can say, and it's outright false.
| david-gpu wrote:
| _> It 's one of the most hurtful things you can say,_
|
| I respect that is how you feel, yet at the same time I
| cal tell you that when I experienced great loss I found
| comfort in the same sort of words. Your mileage may vary.
|
| Personally, I would rather focus on the intention of the
| person than in their exact choice of words. They are
| telling me, in their own way, that they feel for me and
| that they are right besides me trying to bring me a speck
| of comfort in what they know are very trying times.
|
| That is what matters to me and I'm not going to start
| splitting hairs over how they express it.
| trentnix wrote:
| _> I post this for all the well-meaning people who are
| out there insulting and hurting people they love because
| they don 't actually know any better._
|
| No, you've decided to take it as an insult. You demand
| grace from them and give none in return. It's more a
| reflection on you than it is on them.
| smeej wrote:
| The depth of your ignorance of pain here is something I
| envy.
|
| I hope you never encounter the blinding pain of sudden,
| devastating grief, and you never have to find out just
| how impossible it is to try to rise above _anything_ in
| that moment, to choose _anything_ in that moment.
|
| You're not even sure your heart is going to remember how
| to beat because the world as you thought you understood
| it has just come to a screeching halt. The prospect that
| the next moment has the audacity to happen, and the one
| after that--that there's still a world at all now that
| this person isn't in it--doesn't even make sense.
|
| And somebody on the internet is still going to tell you
| they know how you feel and you shouldn't choose to take
| their ignorant platitudes as insensitive.
|
| It tells me everything I need to know that you still
| think it might be the right course to say this to someone
| anyway.
| kgwgk wrote:
| > And somebody on the internet is still going to tell you
| they know how you feel and you shouldn't choose to take
| their ignorant platitudes as insensitive.
|
| But you know what that somebody on the internet has and
| has not felt, right?
| matwood wrote:
| > No. You do not. You CANNOT. It is profoundly insulting
| and diminishing to claim you do.
|
| Or maybe instead assume that someone is trying to comfort
| and empathize with you by relating? Not everyone says the
| perfect thing at the perfect time, so cut people some slack
| who are genuinely trying to help.
| fragmede wrote:
| You're not wrong, and the attempts _are_ appreciated, but
| grief just hurts. so. fucking. much. It is, even among
| friends who also lost the same person, so isolating and
| lonely, that there is no solace, _no_ comfort, only guilt
| and shame, anger and hurt. With time there 's space for
| more than those four things but in the moment (which may
| last years); in that moment, there's no space for
| anything else but grief.
| smeej wrote:
| It is not incumbent upon the person who is grieving to
| take care of the sensitivities of the well-meaning people
| who don't know when to keep their mouths shut.
|
| I'm commenting on an internet forum, devoid of any
| direct, personal grief being expressed, for the sake of
| telling people that this thing they want to say because
| they think it will help actually has the opposite effect.
|
| If you actually love a grieving person AT ALL, don't say
| this to them. Don't.
|
| It's up there with "All things happen for a reason," or,
| "God always has a plan," on the list of things that, in
| the abstract, sound like they should make someone feel
| better, but in the actual moment, make the grieving
| person want to strangle you and tell you to get your
| insensitive self the heck away from them.
|
| If you want to make _yourself_ feel better by spouting
| off some meaningless throw-pillow platitude, fine. Admit
| that that 's what you're doing, but then question whether
| this is actually the right time and place and person to
| take care of _your_ needs.
|
| But if you ACTUALLY want to help the grieving person,
| just strike this empty garbage from your plans.
| GavinMcG wrote:
| Both of you are right. It's not _incumbent on_ someone
| grieving to be gracious, and yet choosing grace is better
| than choosing to react with anger or hurt.
| smeej wrote:
| If you think you get to choose in moments like this,
| you've had no experience with overwhelming grief.
|
| You get to breathe. Usually. If you remind yourself, or
| someone reminds you.
|
| You do not get to be magnanimous about the insensitivity
| of people who can't even bear _looking_ at your pain and
| think there 's something they can say that will make it
| go away.
| lanstin wrote:
| One of the characteristics of grief is that it is a
| reaction which is not chosen, it is events over powering
| a persons regulatory abilities.
| dougmccune wrote:
| I know folks are disagreeing with you a bit in this thread,
| but I just wanted to say that I 100% agree with you. 17
| year-old me could have written the same words after the
| loss of my mom. I know loss. I will never know your loss.
| To me, that acknowledgment is a show of respect.
| smeej wrote:
| It's exactly this. As I said, I don't even know my
| _brother 's_ grief and we lost the same sister.
|
| Nobody else knows the things about her that made _me_
| laugh, the little memories _I_ have, the things about her
| that only I ever experienced in the way I experienced
| them. We shared things no one else can ever know.
|
| I know for a fact that other people have experienced
| gigantic, devastating loss. Other people do know grief.
| Some of them know grief even more severe than mine. I
| encourage them to say so to grieving people, because it
| _is_ important that people know they aren 't alone.
|
| But not one person who has ever lived or can ever live
| has lost _my_ relationship with my sister but me. Saying
| otherwise reduces her to just "a person who died," not
| _this_ person who had _this_ life and _this_
| relationship, who has now died.
|
| And that's what's so radically insulting about it. Don't
| do that to a grieving person. If people matter
| individually at all, then the grief of the people who
| loved them is fundamentally unknowable by anybody else.
|
| I think anyone who has entered into the depths of their
| own grief knows this.
|
| I don't expect to be able to convince the whole internet.
| agumonkey wrote:
| There's a thing about bond and grief. With some persons / pets,
| your emotions are tangles with him/her. Unless they're here,
| it's as if you can't feel or share reality anymore.
| mhb wrote:
| Lydia Davis: "The Dog Hair"
|
| The dog is gone. We miss him. When the doorbell rings, no one
| barks. When we come home late, there is no one waiting for us.
| We still find his white hairs here and there around the house
| and on our clothes. We pick them up. We should throw them away.
| But they are all we have left of him. We don't throw them away.
| We have a wild hope--if only we collect enough of them, we will
| be able to put the dog back together again.
|
| Davis, Lydia. Can't and Won't: Stories. New York: Farrar,
| Straus and Giroux; Reprint edition. 2014.
|
| https://theyalelit.tumblr.com/post/84167301273/the-dog-hair
| [deleted]
| hutzlibu wrote:
| "I'll never get over it."
|
| I certainly will not tell you, how you are supposed to handle
| loss - that is entirely up to you. But are you aware of the
| concept of self fulfilling prophecy?
|
| Meaning if you are so sure of the future, that you will never
| get over it, than you are cementing this future.
|
| I only know about the now, how I grief or rejoice today. It
| certainly feels sometimes, that this will be forever. But
| nothing is. It is your right to hold onto the grief, but
| personally I did better with not cementing my future.
|
| I did get over the loss of my brother this way, despite having
| a way closer relationship to him, than other people who did not
| deal well with it (in my eyes), by accepting the grief and the
| reality of it. And then life went on. The grief is not over,
| maybe never will be. But it is not holding me to the past.
| smeej wrote:
| There is no such thing as "getting over grief." You even
| allude to this yourself: "The grief is not over, maybe never
| will be."
|
| There's nothing unhealthy about recognizing that. Grief isn't
| a thing to be "gotten over." It evolves and it changes, and
| you eventually will evolve and change along with it, but
| recognizing you won't ever get over it is an important step
| on the path to healing.
| watwut wrote:
| > Meaning if you are so sure of the future, that you will
| never get over it, than you are cementing this future.
|
| I don't think this is true in terms of grief. Most will get
| over it, even if they don't believe it is possible. Some will
| never get over it, even when they thought it will be fine or
| actively tried to "got over it".
|
| People dont control whether they get over grief or not.
| Believing it will happen or not is not determining the
| outcome.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| "Believing it will happen or not is not determining the
| outcome."
|
| Words are powerful. So sure most people will get over
| grief, despite them saying they never will. But in my
| experience, those words make it harder for them.
| watwut wrote:
| I don't think so. Those words express how they feel right
| now at that moment. They put into words hopelessness they
| feel at that moment. Expressing it is part of process.
|
| Forcing them to lie about their real feeling at that
| moment won't help them overcome anything. It will only
| make them and anyone who is watching not to trust you
| with their feelings.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| "Forcing them to lie about their real feeling at that
| moment won't help them overcome anything."
|
| First, I am not forcing anyone. Secondly, there are
| thoughts and there are feelings.
|
| You can feel deep sorrow, but _thinking_ that this sorrow
| will last forever is a different thing.
|
| And applying the scientific method suggests, nothing
| lasts forever.
|
| That insight makes the sorrow nothing less intense. But
| it helped me, processing it, instead of letting the grief
| screw up my life, too.
|
| I know a bit about psychology and spiritualism. Mantras
| and autosuggestion. They can make your life better, or
| worse. So I simply share my experience of my success with
| it and my observation of how it worked out for others.
| And if anyone feels forced to do anything, simply by me
| sharing my experience, than I don't see anything I can do
| about that, except feel sorry for them.
| watwut wrote:
| > And applying the scientific method suggests, nothing
| lasts forever.
|
| That is not scientific claim. That is not understanding
| the human communication and context.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| This really does not feel, like a honest exchange of
| ideas.
|
| You are free to use any autosuggestion, you think is
| helpful. I simply shared mine. Good luck with yours.
| smeej wrote:
| This is spoken like it comes from someone who has never
| grieved, or even been close to someone who has. Maybe
| someone who has lost, but not someone who has grieved.
|
| Learning to live with grief, integrating it as part of
| yourself, and eventually even living a thriving life, is in
| NO way "getting over grief."
|
| Grief becomes part of who you are. It doesn't go away. You
| don't get over it. It becomes part of you, and you
| integrate it, and it stops being as _disruptive_ as it was
| immediately after the loss, but trying to "get over it" or
| believing most people do is almost dangerously naive.
| watwut wrote:
| Sounds like you are using definition of grief much
| different the rest of the world. The person I responded
| to did not defined it as infinitely long lasting either.
| ericmcer wrote:
| I have a dog too, a girlfriend and friends and family also but
| me and my dog are together 24/7, sleep in bed together, etc. At
| this point his death will be devastating, I already know it
| will completely wreck me.
|
| I worry people will think it silly to go to pieces over the
| death of a dog, but I am right there with you, it is a massive
| loss.
| toomanyrichies wrote:
| I consider myself a huge "dog person", yet I don't own one.
| If I'm honest with myself, the fear of losing them someday is
| the biggest blocker to me getting one. I feel like I already
| have a lot of inner turmoil, and I'm not sure that all the
| joy my dog would bring me would compensate for the grief I'd
| inevitably feel when saying goodbye. My brain tells me this
| is the wrong way to look at it, but I can't help it.
|
| Thus far my choice has been to live vicariously through other
| dog owners, i.e. visiting dog parks with my partner and
| playing with other peoples' dogs. I tell myself that, this
| way, I get to have all the upside of having a dog, with none
| of the downside. This feels like a complete and utter copout
| to me, and I have no defense against that argument except to
| say that I am emotionally fragile and don't have the inner
| fortitude it takes to let a dog into my life.
| drakonka wrote:
| I'm sorry for your loss. My cats are getting older and every
| once in a while I get pangs of anxiety about how the heck I'll
| be able to handle it when they pass, whether they'll be in
| pain, how I can make it better, etc. I find it difficult to
| even imagine being able to move on from it. I also wonder about
| whether putting a pet to sleep is really as painless as
| everyone claims or if they just say that to make the owners
| feel better, and try to prepare for the practicalities of it to
| make the process as comfortable as possible for them when it
| comes to that.
| [deleted]
| wholinator2 wrote:
| I'm no expert but I'd imagine it's similar to getting put
| under for surgery, the drugs are similar at least, and the
| most painful part of that is the needle. Once the IV is in,
| there's no pain, just a slow and warm dark moving over
| everything.
|
| I watched my mom slowly lose all faculty as she was reduced
| to a muttering, unintelligible, bed ridden shell. Over the
| course of a month she lost the ability to move all of her
| limbs except her left hand. She quite abruptly began having
| trouble finding and forming the right words and I never got
| to have the final conversations I wanted to, I was going to
| interview her about her life but one day I came back and it
| was already too late. She lied in that bed for weeks, stuck
| in the now permanent reality that she was going to die,
| slowly, as everything was ripped away from her one by one.
| The cancer took over the rest of her body. Nobody knew it was
| going to happen, we all thought she'd come home and be okay
| but she never walked again. It was distressing in a way I
| cannot communicate.
|
| She deserved the warm dark, and it had been far too long by
| the time it finally came for her. One needle prick is nothing
| compared to the potential suffering at the end of life
| afforded by our current medical advancements.
| possiblydrunk wrote:
| It appears painless - I'm convinced it was. But life is
| precious and death is irrevocable. Either way is hard and
| terribly sad.
| theck01 wrote:
| I don't know how painless it actually is, but putting an
| animal to sleep is a quick and dignified death compared to
| what I have seen happen to most people.
|
| If I could choose I'd like to have something similar happen
| to me some day. You go in the span of a few minutes
| surrounded by the ones who love you most.
|
| Nevertheless it is still very hard to say goodbye. I hope you
| still have lots more time with your cats.
| polotics wrote:
| For anyone reading this: best practice to prevent damage from
| psychological trauma is the iCOVER method, check it out on the US
| mil psy sites, apply it! In short: No calming words, orient and
| give simple tasks, make sure the potential victim does not become
| one by staying in the mind, active.
| ben174 wrote:
| Odd, I can't find anything when searching for this. (Google)
| polotics wrote:
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31328939/
| xvector wrote:
| Can't find any details about the "simple, 6-step procedure"
| itself. What are the steps!? (The paper is paywalled.)
|
| Edit: Can't believe how difficult it was to find this [1]:
|
| 1. Identify the individual experiencing an acute stress
| reaction.
|
| 2. Connect with the individual by speaking their name,
| making eye contact, and holding their arm.
|
| 3. Offer commitment by letting them know they are not
| alone.
|
| 4. Verify facts with two to three simple questions to get
| their thinking kickstarted ("Who is your commander?" and
| "What unit are you in?").
|
| 5. Establish an order of events to ground them in the
| present moment by stating what happened, what is happening,
| and what needs to happen in three simple sentences.
|
| 6. Request action of the individual to restore them to
| purposeful behavior.
|
| It doesn't seem useful for civilians, especially those
| living alone.
|
| [1]: https://health.mil/Military-Health-Topics/Centers-of-
| Excelle...
| blueblimp wrote:
| Thanks for finding a link. As a civilian example, this
| document proposes applying it for medical staff dealing
| with COVID: https://www.wrair.army.mil/sites/default/file
| s/2020-04/iCOVE....
| PaulKeeble wrote:
| The amount of troops coming home with PTSD would suggest it
| might keep them functional on the battlefield but it doesn't
| set them up for a healthy life afterwards.
| polotics wrote:
| This is quite new, so work in progress, the neuropsychology
| as far as I can fathom does check out, not just for immediate
| capabilities preservation, but also to prevent longer term
| damage.
| rawland wrote:
| Thank you
| hackernewds wrote:
| This seems more handy in a hostage situation than how to deal
| with grief in the medium/long term
| raffijacobs wrote:
| Thanks for sharing this.
|
| We lost our brother a while ago. Known to many as Matthew Rudy
| with the silent Jacobs at the end. Nobody has ever been prouder
| of their middle name.
|
| I've found it useful reading about other people's loss. Here's
| the latest book I read.
| https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/jan/29/my-partner-die...
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