[HN Gopher] "World's best" Guitar Hero player was a cheat
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"World's best" Guitar Hero player was a cheat
Author : luu
Score : 178 points
Date : 2022-03-30 06:11 UTC (16 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (kotaku.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (kotaku.com)
| ben7799 wrote:
| Depressing someone would get so into this and spend so much time
| and effort on a game and then be ruined by cheating when it
| wasn't even necessary.
|
| Watching the video the narrator talks about playing real guitar.
| I played Guitar Hero before learning real guitar and that's such
| a fascinating thing. In general I also find the real thing easier
| (sometimes MUCH) easier than the game. I think the real thing
| made the game harder for me, perhaps because the game is visual,
| not auditory.
|
| That said I played Guitar Hero I/II on the XB360 when it was
| popular. More recently I had tried Rock Band on the XB1, and it's
| possible it's just that the whole thing was just terrible on the
| XB1 due to the HDMI latency.
|
| I can't imagine getting so good at the game as well.. cause I
| found the controllers RSI monsters compared to real guitars.
| Mushy buttons with lots of travel. They would often make my left
| hand hurt.
| vlunkr wrote:
| I think Guitar Hero is harder than the real guitar in the sense
| that it's hard to know what you're doing wrong because the
| feedback isn't so immediate. For me, when it comes to really
| fast sections, if I start missing notes it's hard to tell if
| I'm going too fast, too slow, or just pressing the wrong
| buttons. I loved the games in their heyday and got pretty good,
| but I reached my own skill plateau where I stopped improving
| and it just didn't feel good anymore.
|
| I recently played through Thumper, made by ex Rock Band devs,
| and while it's not a direct replacement, it's a huge
| improvement in many ways. It's much less forgiving, but you at
| least always know exactly what you did wrong.
| thriftwy wrote:
| PetitPrince wrote:
| Why can't you let people have fun?
|
| Guitar hero players (or at least, the subset of players in who
| are interested in very difficult tracks) are not trying to
| produce melodies or jamming harmoniously ; they're doing high
| speed, high precision pattern matching.
|
| This is like berating gamers playing Elden Ring where they
| could do HEMA instead !
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > This is like berating gamers playing Elden Ring where they
| could do HEMA instead!
|
| I'm going to have to say that this analogy doesn't work. The
| downsides of doing real HEMA are things like "you can
| experience what it's _really like_ to have your head bashed
| in with a historically-accurate mace ". The downsides of
| playing guitar in real life are things like "you need a
| guitar".
| thriftwy wrote:
| Speed running Guitar Hero and conflicting over its validity
| does not sound very fun to me.
|
| This is the embarrassing point where fun have been lost
| already but productivity is not there also.
| recursive wrote:
| Sometimes other people will find things fun that you do not
| find fun. This is ok.
| emerged wrote:
| Cynicism will run your life right into the ground if you
| aren't careful.
| np_tedious wrote:
| Real musicians frequently record things they are unable to
| legitimately perform live
| fredoliveira wrote:
| Can confirm this is extremely frequent, especially when it
| comes to harmony. Not everyone can be Herbie Hancock on a
| keyboard, but with just enough theory and a good ear, you can
| write complex progressions into a DAW, for example.
|
| This subject always reminds me of Squarepusher's Music for
| Robots [1], which was made to be played by robots instead of
| humans.
|
| 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_for_Robots_(EP)
| DonHopkins wrote:
| And Raymond Scott's Soothing Sounds for Baby -- who ever
| knew a baby could play a synthesizer so well?
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k66nGplNRmQ
|
| At least the Android Sisters play their own music:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeerjrFjgT8
| thriftwy wrote:
| And that's a good thing, because you end up with a recording
| which have cultural value.
|
| Guitar Hero playes, on the other hand...
| JasonFruit wrote:
| There's nothing wrong with having fun playing a game. Do I
| think it's wise to make a game your _one big thing_?
| Probably not. But when it comes down to it, few of us will
| have any lasting effect on the world, and your personal
| happiness has value, too.
| [deleted]
| LocalH wrote:
| There's always someone who judges the pastimes of others,
| and makes value statements regarding something they're
| perceiving from the outside.
|
| The Guitar Hero community is honestly pretty close knit,
| given the size of it relative to other more popular games.
| Some of my absolute best friends in the world I met through
| Guitar Hero.
|
| Your dismissive statement has about as much cultural value
| as what you attribute to Guitar Hero.
|
| At this point, the Guitar Hero community is _its own_
| subculture.
| fknorangesite wrote:
| However small you feel the cultural value of Guitar Hero
| plays, it is still more than that of judgmental
| gatekeeping.
| omnibrain wrote:
| There is even an early xkcd about this topic:
| https://xkcd.com/359/
| tvararu wrote:
| I played Guitar Hero for years before I picked up the real
| instrument. I still enjoy the game.
|
| Let people have fun.
| [deleted]
| anonu wrote:
| From the end of the video:
|
| 0.75 * 132.5=99.375
|
| 0.75 * 133.3=99.975 or 60 milliseconds slower over 4 minutes.
| Probably imperceptible if you played 2 videos over each other.
|
| Interesting they caught that difference. Wonder why he made the
| math error? Maybe originally he divided 2 wall clock times that
| weren't exact lengths and just ended up using the wrong
| multiplier all along.
| LocalH wrote:
| This game is all about the tiniest differences in timing. I can
| feel the difference if my game is even 10-20ms out of sync. It
| doesn't surprise me at all that someone detected it.
| Graziano_M wrote:
| Back when guitar hero was big I went home to visit family and
| played my brother. He stomped me, but I noticed the sound
| wasn't synced up to the video. Once I fixed the setting to
| make it accurate he was horrible. He had trained in a ~100ms
| delta in what was shown on video. He couldn't play on anyone
| else's TV, either.
| kmeisthax wrote:
| >What's wild here is that Schmooey was a really good Guitar Hero
| player! This wasn't a case of some kid sitting alone in his room
| faking his way to the top through video alone. Schmooey had been
| an active member of the community, and had even attended live
| events and played alongside fellow players like CarneyJared
| (whose exploits we featured last year).
|
| In many competitive sports, the top players will all plateau at
| nearly the same level of performance. Distinguishing competitors
| any further becomes impossible, with what is effectively random
| chance deciding (honest) winners. The search for an "edge" - some
| split-second advantage to go from being effectively tied at #2
| with 30 other competitors to being consistently #1 - leads
| competitors to do one of two things:
|
| - Embrace superstition
|
| - Cheat
|
| Schmooey's actions are explainable purely as a way for an
| otherwise amazing competitor to get their "edge" by cheating
| "just a little". The same mechanics are why many sports not only
| have problems with doping[0], but organized doping rings that
| expend lots of time and energy on figuring out how to beat anti-
| doping tests. The face of sport is great athletes either making
| themselves very slightly superhuman with damaging drug abuse, or,
| if they can, lying about their performance to make it look like
| they did the former.
|
| [0] For the record, doping is not purely a physical athletics
| problem; e-sports have already been roiled by allegations of
| Adderall abuse.
| HideousKojima wrote:
| Billy Mitchell (the guy from _King of Kong_ ) was also actually
| genuinely good at _Donkey Kong_ , definitely in the top 1% of
| players. But like you said, that isn't always enough to get to
| the top, and he resorted to cheating.
| mocha_nate wrote:
| I was at a family house party and an 8 year old came up to his
| mom asking for Admin rights in Roblox (we found out -- so he
| could cheat). He was very upset because EVERYBODY DOES IT and
| he felt left behind.
| mc4ndr3 wrote:
| Yeah, the Donkey Kong guy was the same way. No love of the
| sport. People living for empty achievements.
| xurukefi wrote:
| That is also why cheating done by actually skilled people is
| really dificult to detect. Schmooey is a skilled guitar hero
| player and therefore he very well knows the limitations in
| terms of the results the competitive gh community will believe
| him. A random kid with no skill would have no idea of what he
| is actually doing and would just perform some absolutely unreal
| run that nobody would buy into. It's a bit like cheating in
| chess where a grandmaster using an engine would not blindly
| play the best moves but rather the ones that seem barely within
| human capabilities. Or like a professional runner on EPO who
| breaks the world record in the 10000m just by a few seconds
| although he would have had much more left in the tank.
| jancsika wrote:
| > Schmooey's actions are explainable purely as a way for an
| otherwise amazing competitor to get their "edge" by cheating
| "just a little".
|
| Playing slower and then playing a sped-up video to pretend it
| is live is the epitome of cheating, not "just a little"
| cheating to get an "edge."
|
| What's refreshing here is the fact that he seems not at all
| interested in attempting to rationalize his own behavior. The
| article says he refunded the bounties he collected. Someone who
| admits to this kind of public mistake like this has a good
| opportunity to come out the other side a better person.
| pirate787 wrote:
| Agreed, especially since he was so young when he cheated.
| taeric wrote:
| Sadly, I don't think we do enough to actually celebrate
| coming clean. I can hope this is a situation where I'm wrong
| on that.
|
| And to be fair, I get why it can be hard to celebrate the
| admission of something without celebrating that something.
| So, celebrate is probably not the right word.
| pessimizer wrote:
| Everybody sees the perverse incentives in celebrating ex-
| cheaters while non-cheaters are ignored.
| taeric wrote:
| I think my problem is in the excommunication style of
| dealing with cheating. Reparation and nullification of
| cheat wins makes sense. Beyond that? You wind up
| encouraging scorched earth defence of celebrities. Or
| worse, when the stakes start to outweigh the actual
| costs.
|
| Note that I'm not clear there is any path free of ego
| based hiding of behavior. Not do I really have actionable
| ideas. About the only faith item that I still have is
| redemption. And it is crazy to me how hard the modern
| world seems to try to block that off. Worse still, when
| allowing for redemption is mistaken for endorsing the
| previous behavior. Often in bad faith discussions.
| donalhunt wrote:
| This reminds me of how F1 teams will look for any ambiguity in
| the regulations to allow them to take advantage over fellow
| teams.
|
| Mercedes with their "not rigid enough" rear wing springs to
| mind. The sporting rule makers later clarified exactly what was
| and was not allowed.
|
| And yes - I note the other responses mentioning the difference
| between bending the rules and breaking them.
| walton_simons wrote:
| My favourite instance of this is the Brabham BT46B, which
| used fans to suck the car down onto the track. Not cheating
| by any means -- they never tried to hide it -- but
| nevertheless a very creative interpretation of the rules!
|
| https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/single-
| seaters/f...
| [deleted]
| danjc wrote:
| I get that this is just a game but I seriously think if you're
| going to spend so much time playing a fake instrument, you might
| as well learn to play the real thing. As for speed - shredding
| anyone?
| wodenokoto wrote:
| There's a South Park episode that takes the idea that Guitar
| Hero players are more skilled and renowned than actual guitar
| players.
|
| There's a scene where one of the kids plays an acoustic set of
| guitar hero, and people listen deeply and applaud him tapping
| on an unplugged guitar hero controller.
| code_duck wrote:
| Guitar playing doesn't have visual reinforcement. It would be
| interesting if it did.
| Foxboron wrote:
| I personally vividly hallucinate tabs, chords, shapes and
| scales while playing. Sometimes with it overlaying on the
| fretboard.
|
| Arguably this depends on how you learn and memorize, but I
| don't think you can discount the visual element of playing
| instruments. We do have the dots in the fretboard after all.
| hoseja wrote:
| You needed to learn to hallucinate them. Imagine them in AR
| from the get-go.
| grujicd wrote:
| You don't know about Rocksmith? Basically, it comes with a
| guitar to USB cable, you plug in the real thing and play
| something very similar to Guitar Hero.
| xdfgh1112 wrote:
| It's not as fun and it takes longer to get good. That's why
| rhythm games are popular.
| grujicd wrote:
| You're probably right since I never played Guitar Hero.
|
| Rocksmith would definitelly be harder since you have to
| produce clean tones for game to recognize. Correct
| fretting and picking... But you'll have some real guitar
| skills when you turn off the game.
|
| As a not-so-skilled guitar player, I found Rocksmith to
| greatly improve my rhythm and to teach me a valuable
| lesson of "show must go on". When you play alone and make
| a mistake it's natural to stop and redo that last part.
| But that's not how you can play with others and not the
| way you can play Rocksmith. So it teaches you to keep
| playing whatever happens.
|
| Aparth from these aspects, which are important, I didn't
| learn much more from Rocksmith. Yes, it does have some
| musical lessons but my general feeling is that it leads
| you to follow patterns that scroll down, and not to think
| about notes/chords/scales involved.
| jerrre wrote:
| You might as well, but if one is more fun to you than the
| other, there is nothing inherently better with a "real"
| instrument.
| ClemFandango wrote:
| I play guitar/bass, and I've played in bands and by myself, but
| this represents an entirely different and interesting skillset.
| Rhythm games are a skill in their own right, the visual element
| of what they're simulating is somewhat inconsequential - the
| guitar controller could just be a stick or even a regular
| controller and the gameplay is roughly the same. Maybe the drum
| controller for rock band(?) is a close analogy, but it misses
| the point so to speak
| lloeki wrote:
| IIRC the Rock Band team was borne out from part of the GH
| team that had a different view of the game. It's all in the
| title: Rock _Band_ vs Guitar _Hero_. One is collaborative,
| the other competitive.
|
| The RB team had this vision that the game was a mind trick to
| maybe get people into music, with a low barrier to entry,
| ramping up all the way to RB3's pro guitar (the one with 6
| strings and the full fret board, that ends up showing actual
| chords on screen), pro keyboard, pro drum set, and so on. Of
| course it's useless to pretend this makes you learn the real
| instruments, still you get to approach key things like pacing
| yourself, rhythm, strumming, song structure, pattern
| matching, rehearsing, talking to your band members... all
| while having a damn fun time.
|
| And dare I say, this was a success, at least for one of my
| friends and his family. I showed him RB1, he enjoyed it so
| much that the next day he bought a X360+game+accessories,
| started playing it, and pulled along his wife and two
| daughters, where they rotated instruments in turn. As they
| ramped up through the whole RB saga up to RB3, they thought
| "it's so fun playing this game together, kinda like being a
| band!". Next thing you know they picked up real instruments
| and started an actual band.
|
| I myself picked up the guitar much more easily, not because
| of any technique learned (because the game is incredibly
| different from the real thing still) but because it made me
| raise in confidence that this was approachable.
| LocalH wrote:
| The Rock Band team _was_ pretty much the Guitar Hero 2
| team. Harmonix made Rock Band because Activision chose to
| hand GH3 development to another team. Activision even had
| the option to use the Harmonix engine under license, and
| chose to allow Neversoft to fork the Tony Hawk engine and
| bolt a beatmatcher on top (which they did horribly, by the
| way, ExileLord has some videos on YouTube discussing some
| of the more egregious bugs).
|
| It's entirely possible that, had Harmonix developed GH3, it
| may have been a full-band game. We do know that they
| considered drums as early as post-GH1 development, there
| exist a whole array of drum gems in the 4-song OPM GH2
| demo, as well as some leftover code fragments (for example,
| there is an entire DrumTrackWatcher class with several
| functions like AddFills and AddLanes, and the OPM demo
| build itself actually also at some level checks for
| Konami/Topway drums for PS1 DrumMania, and has controller
| detection script that recognizes Topway drums).
|
| GH2 also has leftover "band_version.dta" files that, across
| all builds of GH2 and GH80s that we have, always contains
| the same contents: "Build: 060302_A" (HMX dated these
| builds YYMMDD, best we can tell). band_version.dta is the
| file later used in the Rock Band series to contain the
| build date. There is also a separate file "gh2_version.dta"
| that is different between PS2 4-song, PS2 10-song, PS2
| retail, 360 retail, 360 10-song, PS2 GH80s press review,
| and PS2 GH80s retail. I'm pretty sure there exists within
| Harmonix, a disc with that very build date written on the
| label (including the A, which I feel signifies that they'd
| burnt a second distinct build that day), and my feeling is
| that if we had that disc, it would have whatever drum
| support active that they had at the time. Perhaps 060302
| doesn't have drums active, but 060302_A was a branch that
| did? No way to know unless someone steals those binders
| from HMX and leaks them to us (fat chance lol) or HMX
| themselves decide to open up their archives to our
| dataminers.
| chaps wrote:
| Interestingly, you could buy a midi adapter and hook up
| something like a roland electronic kit. Kind of a learning
| tool.. just that it wasn't good at teaching good habits.
| bananamerica wrote:
| I actually prefer Guitar Hero with a PlayStation controller.
| LocalH wrote:
| If the 360/PS3 controllers didn't absolutely blow for the
| purpose, I'd suggest checking out Rock Band 2 Deluxe and
| the "pad is guitar" modifier we added, which restores
| GH2-style gamepad play for guitar (and for shiggles we
| added another that does "pad is drum", although button
| mappings are kinda funky).
| bananamerica wrote:
| I was actually thinking of the PS2 controller, where I
| used to play Guitar Hero back in the day.
|
| That's cool. Uh... Who's "we"?
| LocalH wrote:
| Yea, I knew that. I was mentioning that it's possible to
| play RB2 in the same fashion.
|
| "We" are a small team of people who make mods to older
| Harmonix games. RB2 Deluxe is a free patch for modded
| 360/PS3 that adds a lot of quality-of-life features to
| the game. https://rb2-deluxe.neocities.org/
| entropie wrote:
| > you might as well learn to play the real thing
|
| You could argue the same with almost every other game thats a
| copy of real life actions. Racing, Soccer, Martial Arts
| games... the list is long and does not even end with FPS games.
| There was lots of arguing the early days of "killer games" if
| they actually make people violent. No they don't. Competitive
| FPS games were and are about skills and being better, faster
| and able to outplay your opponent.
|
| My GFs sisters family was all about classical music education
| and her sister is already known international for playing her
| instrument. She also plays guitar hero (and competitive FPS
| shooter). Its just an entirely different skillset. Guitar hero
| needs absolutely no education in any music stuff, therefore the
| entry level is much much lower.
|
| You cannot really compare it. Guitar hero is like mastering any
| other video game like tetris or pong. Mastering a music
| instrument is another level of education. At least yet. Sooner
| or later it will comparable maybe. When children start to play
| a video game with the age of like 4 and keep doing it basically
| their entire life 6+ hours a day - that's the amount of time a
| professional classical musician invests in their profession.
| philjohn wrote:
| I'd say sim racing stands out a little as the cost of entry
| into doing it for real tends to be a lot more than a
| computer, wheel and pedals.
| dewey wrote:
| And some even make the jump to the real thing:
|
| https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.f1-esports-
| gradua...
| rkangel wrote:
| I agree on most games. I find it interesting that being good
| at simracing (with one of the proper simulation games like
| iRacing) _does_ translate to ability on a track.
| yodsanklai wrote:
| > Guitar hero is like mastering any other video game like
| tetris or pong
|
| Still, there's an important rhythm element to it. I'd assume
| musicians or people who have a good sense of rhythm are at an
| advantage.
| hnlmorg wrote:
| I DJ (3x deck techno and breaks too, so stuff that requires
| being good at rhythms and beat matching) as well as play
| the guitar and keyboard. I totally suck at guitar hero and
| other rhythm games.
|
| I'm not saying there isn't any transferable skills what-so-
| ever but being good at one doesn't automatically mean you
| have an advantage at the other.
| entropie wrote:
| > there's an important rhythm element to it.
|
| Well. You could say timing =~ rhythm. So yes and no. I'am
| pretty sure - correct me if iam wrong - that guitar hero
| pros watch the screen and don't listen to the music. Makes
| it also easier to adapt to (way) higher speeds than 100%.
| LocalH wrote:
| Some people play that way, yes. I personally play where I
| sync myself to the actual music as best as possible. So I
| have to hear both the music _and_ my controller sounds. I
| don 't know if I'd consider myself a pro _player_
| (although I 'm a prominent GH2/Rock Band _modder_ ) but
| I'm much better than the average player, when you take
| into account all players and not just GH community
| members.
| riater wrote:
| I have played classical guitar for 30 years.
|
| It is absurd to say you can not compare these things. Utterly
| absurd.
|
| It is exactly like spending time in car driving simulator
| instead of actually learning to drive car.
|
| Your point makes zero sense. I don't even think you believe
| this because comparing video game soccer or martial arts to
| actually playing soccer or fighting is just stupid.
| entropie wrote:
| > It is exactly like spending time in car driving simulator
| instead of actually learning to drive car.
|
| Thats not remotely comparable with playing guitar trying to
| replicate what you see on a screen with a few buttons. But
| I will not argue with a guy that just called my opinion
| "just stupid".
|
| Also:
|
| > because comparing video game soccer or martial arts to
| actually playing soccer or fighting
|
| Thats not what I did.
| maratc wrote:
| > Its just an entirely different skillset.
|
| With a plastic guitar, you're right. But plastic drumset
| skills are transferrable to a real instrument.
| hnlmorg wrote:
| Not necessarily. The way you sit at a drum kit, angle your
| arms and even hold the drumsticks differ on real kits than
| they do on the Guitar Hero kit. The technique matters a lot
| because you use the flex in the drum skins to help with
| your movements and thus allow for tighter patterns and
| reduce the risk of RSI. This same technique isn't
| transferable to Guitar Hero and nor would playing Guitar
| Hero make you a competent drummer (due to teaching the
| wrong technique).
| maratc wrote:
| I agree it's not 100% the same thing but it's much closer
| than playing a plastic guitar.
|
| Being an excellent GH drummer might make you (a mediocre)
| drummer IRL. Being an excellent GH guitar player won't
| make you even a beginner guitar player IRL. It's not "an
| entirely different skillset", it's a relevantly close
| skillset as long as drums are affected.
| hnlmorg wrote:
| My point is that being a drummer, even a mediocre one, is
| all about technique and that technique differs on a real
| drum kit vs Guitar Hero drums.
|
| While superficially it might look the same, drumming
| isn't just about hitting objects in time. How you hit
| those objects is what really matters but GH doesn't train
| that skill.
| djmips wrote:
| This is strange thinking. just because it's got the word
| 'guitar' in the title you think they should pick up the real
| thing. Well it's got nothing to do with a guitar other than the
| fantasy. They are playing a rhythm game. Why not ask them to
| play the piano or sing opera. Do you tell people who are good
| at driving games to go learn to be a race car driver?
| Moru wrote:
| The difference between a racing game and learn to be a race
| car driver is actually not that big compared to guitar hero
| and a real guitar. I would say a drum set might be more
| fitting to the guitar hero player. The modern racing games
| actually teach you some skills that a real rally driver
| needs.
| reincarnate0x14 wrote:
| > Do you tell people who are good at driving games to go
| learn to be a race car driver?
|
| In many cases the more simulation-focused games are used by
| people who really like racing cars, or flying planes, or
| driving tractors, or whatever, but can't do it as much or in
| the expensive equipment they'd physically prefer.
|
| There is a lot of variance in games as to the fidelity of
| what they're representing. Most shooters won't teach you
| anything about real firearms or bows and arrows and most
| racing games have little to do with real cars, but there are
| flight sims that have physics and controls directly modeled
| on real equipment.
|
| There have been real piano training games. I'd imagine any
| instrument could be with modern audio sampling and analysis
| if people wanted to pay for it.
| LocalH wrote:
| 2006 called, it wants that joke back.
|
| I play Guitar Hero for the flow state it can induce for me.
| It's one hell of a way to enjoy a remarkably wide range of
| music.
| bananamerica wrote:
| One video I saw states that, at the higher levels, Guitar Hero
| can be harder than playing a real guitar.
| LocalH wrote:
| It absolutely can be. It can even be harder at lower levels,
| if someone has strong muscle memory for guitar. The engines
| are much less rigid than one might think - GH is one of the
| few rhythm games were per-gem accuracy is not a consideration
| whatsoever. Some fan engines will _track_ your accuracy per
| gem, or at least report it to the player, but the core
| gameplay mechanics don 't take that into account at all (gems
| score the same whether you hit them early, late, or perfect,
| as long as they're still within the hit window). In fact,
| that creates a phenomenon known as "squeezing" where you
| abuse the window to hit a gem as late as possible, activating
| star power immediately before, and then hitting a gem as
| early as possible right before the star power empties. This
| allows one to get an extra gem under the additional 2x
| multiplier that active star power provides. Almost all of the
| #1 scores on Scorehero use this to a high degree, making the
| actual star power "path" (basically, the positions in the
| chart where activation of star power gives you the most
| optimal score) highly important.
| acomjean wrote:
| There is a guitar hero like game for guitar and bass. It even
| has some basic video lessons. My partner and I played. You
| needed the 1/4 inch plug to usb for your instrument.(I think
| they're cable)
|
| It's actually pretty fun. Though I haven't played in a few
| years. You could buy new songs once you finished the initial
| ones. They're at various difficulties and you get more notes as
| you level up.
|
| "Rocksmith"
|
| Now on steam apparently
| https://store.steampowered.com/app/221680/Rocksmith_2014_Edi...
|
| For drumming /finger drumming/keyboard there is
|
| https://melodics.com/
|
| Which is pricy / less game like but I did it for a year.
| wirthjason wrote:
| I used to think e-sports and games were not real things
| compared to their counterpart but I've come to feel that they
| are just as real. The different is subtle but let me try and
| explain.
|
| He is playing "real guitar hero" not fake guitar hero or
| simulated guitar hero. Playing the guitar and playing guitar
| hero are not the same despite containing similar looking
| elements. In one case the target is to produce music, in the
| other it's to produce points or a high score. He doesn't care
| about producing music, he cares about producing a high score.
| Likewise, the musician's aim isn't to be better at scoring
| points, it's to be better at producing music.
|
| To use another game, one could say "why play Madden when you
| could play 'real' football?" Madden IS real. Is it football,
| no. It's a game. But that's OK. Football is a game, Madden is a
| game, but they are different games. The aim of playing Madden
| isn't to become the next great linebacker for the Chicago
| Bears, it's to be better at playing Madden.
|
| Chess is an example outside of video games. It's said that chew
| is a simulation of war. But people don't play chess to become
| better generals and generals don't play chess to become better
| at winning wars. They are each their own thing.
| wirthjason wrote:
| I'd like to add that I think e-sports will come to overtaking
| physical sports in my lifetime.
|
| I really enjoy watching sports (pretty much every sport,
| although I'm a partial to college football) and played sports
| as a kid but it's much harder to do as I get older for the
| obvious physical reasons and the fact that adults don't have
| the coordinated free time and schedules of children.
|
| Video games are a much more accessible medium. I see my 8
| year old nephew play video games and watch streamers. He can
| then play the same game for himself. As much as I loved
| watching Michael Jordan as a kid I could never, and will
| never, be able to dunk a basketball. There barriers to entry
| for video games is much lower, almost anyone can do it, such
| that it's practically zero. It's much more relatable and as
| he gets older I think he'll choose to watch people compete in
| the things he grew up with and relates to. Given the shear
| number of people to game it's not unimaginable to see how
| e-sports could surpass professional sports one day.
| asiachick wrote:
| Rhythm games are generally fun immediately. Real instruments
| are fun maybe after investing several hundred hours of
| practice.
|
| I don't know if they've fixed it but I did try version 1 of
| Rocksmith, a game that's supposed to teach you actual guitar.
| Unfortunately, the first song was playable by a noob. The 2nd
| song was impossible for a noob. And that was the end of that.
|
| Maybe they've fix it, or maybe I suck, or maybe some people
| plow on anyway.
| grujicd wrote:
| I didn't play Rocksmith for years, but I think it had some
| "level" setting for most songs. You'd get fewer notes and
| simpler chords on the easiest level. That said, I didn't
| start with Rocmith as an absolute beginner. It did improve my
| rhythm, correctness and speed, which is great, but didn't
| improve my musical knowledge about notes, chords or scales. I
| see it as a good stepping stone, but eventually you have to
| move on.
| BolexNOLA wrote:
| I get that Halo is just a game but I seriously think if you're
| going to spend so much time shooting a fake gun on a fake
| planet at fake aliens, you might as well learn to do the real
| thing.
|
| Sarcasm aside, most people can't just pick up a guitar, find a
| full band, book a gig, etc. That's one of the main reasons we
| even have video games. To "do" stuff we can't do in our lives.
|
| I love Stardew Valley. Should I sell my possessions, leave my
| family, and go start a new life in a small town as a
| farmer/dungeon diver/beer brewer?
| kibwen wrote:
| _> What's wild here is that Schmooey was a really good Guitar
| Hero player! This wasn't a case of some kid sitting alone in his
| room faking his way to the top through video alone._
|
| I think this is a misconception. Being a good player might even
| make you more likely to cheat, in some ways. After going for a
| record and failing for long enough, players can start to assume
| that they're entitled to the record via any means necessary.
| Furthermore, as a good player you have the skills and knowledge
| necessary to make a fake video that passes the initial sniff
| test. You also may have enough clout and social standing that
| others may be reluctant to even consider the possibility that you
| cheated, or they may be afraid of the backlash from your fans
| that would result from any accusation (just look at what happened
| with Dream, who was undoubtedly a good Minecraft player).
| LocalH wrote:
| > You also may have enough clout and social standing that
| others may be reluctant to even consider the possibility that
| you cheated
|
| This is what happened here initially. Some of the achievements
| Schmooey got were almost "too good to be true", but they were
| just close enough to what was considered feasible as to largely
| go unnoticed until people started looking closer. Schmooey was
| also friends with a ton of prominent GH players, such that he
| ran a fairly successful private Discord server. I was there
| when that place burned to the ground lmao.
|
| It also didn't help that, at the December meetup that Schmooey
| attended, he avoided playing certain things that, given the
| skill level he'd built himself up as having, he should have had
| no problem tackling. I didn't notice this so much while
| actually at said meetup, as I largely focus on the Harmonix
| side of things (GH2 and Rock Band), but the other players there
| certainly brought it up after everyone had returned home.
| lqet wrote:
| > Sure, some of his videos had the odd questionable moment--a
| video lag here, some dark footage there--but for the most part
| these queries were far from conclusive proof that he had been
| cheating, and so nothing ever came of them.
|
| This reminded me of the excellent documentary _Kong: A Fistful of
| Quarters_ , in which at some point ( _SPOILER_ ) one of the best
| (if not the best) arcade game players in the world submits a very
| suspicious VHS tape of a new record.
|
| If you want to have a deep look into the world of competitive
| arcade gaming, I strongly recommend this movie. It starts out
| quite innocent, but gets darker and more insane with every
| minute.
|
| The full movie is on YouTube:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXLQqcHcJDQ
| belter wrote:
| Great documentary. Thanks for sharing. Those were the times.
|
| Was surprised at the low amount of views. This other one, (
| spoiler warning ) that you should NOT see before watching your
| linked video...has more than a million :-)
|
| https://youtu.be/yJ74cr1x6SE
| wnevets wrote:
| IIRC there was a story posted here on HN about the admins of
| the leaderboard helping the hot sauce guy cheat as well.
| BolexNOLA wrote:
| I need to find it, but I remember reading an article that was
| critical - or at least complicated the narrative - of the
| documentary, saying that the characterizations were not very
| fair/were very lopsided to facilitate the "good guy vs.
| villain" story. I'll try to track it down.
|
| Update: https://www.avclub.com/the-king-of-kong-continued-
| donkey-kon...
| LocalH wrote:
| I met Schmooey in December, at a Guitar Hero meetup in North
| Carolina. He _is_ a very good player, there 's a song named Novae
| Ruptis with an extremely hard strumming chart. I personally
| watched him 100% full combo that song _sixteen times in a row_.
| But he wanted _more_. He didn 't just want to be a _great_ GH
| player. He wanted people to think he was the absolute _GOAT_.
| Kinda sad, he was really chill and cool to hang out with.
| MivLives wrote:
| It seems like a lot of these speed runner cheaters are in this
| sort of boat. A lot of them can do the record they're breaking
| but want to skip some of the grind that comes with speed
| running or are just frustrated by being so close so many times.
| postingposts wrote:
| m1gu3l wrote:
| so he cheats at a guitar video game and all of a sudden he
| isn't chill or cool to hang out with... i mean, ok.
| ninth_ant wrote:
| He cheated in order to claim world records, earn fame and
| admiration, and to collect cash bounties.
|
| It's not just a casual "he cheated in a video game", like it
| was some small thing someone did to beat an end boss. It was
| a fairly elaborate fraud/deception over a long period of
| time.
| postingposts wrote:
| LocalH wrote:
| I didn't say he wouldn't be outside of a Guitar Hero context.
| But I only met him the one time, and so it is a past tense
| event.
| bambax wrote:
| One of the methods of cheating that was used was "splicing":
| playing parts of the song separately, and then cutting and
| pasting the parts together so that they appear to have been
| played in one continuous session.
|
| Pro musicians -- especially singers -- do this all the time in
| the studio though: there it's called "comping". Singers sing the
| same song multiple times, and the best takes for each part
| (sometimes very small moments of a few seconds) are put together
| to construct the best possible whole.
|
| Somehow this is not considered cheating, but there is an
| ambiguity; how the performance was produced is either not known
| or willfully ignored by the consuming public.
|
| Songs are like sausages. Or most things really. Better enjoy the
| end product and not worry about how it was made.
| [deleted]
| woliveirajr wrote:
| Isn't considered cheating but it is at the edge.
|
| If you just listen to the music at your home, it's ok. If you
| go to the show and the performance is poor, you feel you're
| missing something. If the singer is just dubbing, you'll feel
| fooled if you expected the real thing.
|
| Some say that even in this case what's worth is the
| performance, the "experience". But if you find out that they
| were stunts with pre-record music, your "experience" vanishes.
|
| Cheating is one of those things that depends on your
| expectation.
| bambax wrote:
| It's considered cheating when for example the "singer" is not
| doing the singing, and it's kept a secret.
|
| There was a big scandal in France in 2006-2010 when the
| public learned that a 1977 hit record "ca plane pour moi" by
| Plastic Bertrand, was in fact sung by somebody else; see:
|
| https://www.expatica.com/be/uncategorized/plastic-
| bertrand-a...
| quakeguy wrote:
| Milli Vanilli is an even better known example of cheating
| in this regard i'd say.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milli_Vanilli
| bambax wrote:
| Maybe, but apparently in their case the deception lasted
| about a year; in Plastic Bertrand's case it lasted about
| 30 years.
| Synaesthesia wrote:
| I feel like they were just a couple of naive guys who got
| used by the industry and then chewed up.
| dagw wrote:
| The big problem is when you cannot reproduce anything close to
| that performance live. There was this one band I used to like
| and on the album the singer had this deep, powerful, voice that
| really projected. Then I went to see them live and singer had a
| weak reedy voice the barely carried. It was a depressing and
| terrible show.
| JasonFruit wrote:
| I had a recording of Paul Galbraith playing Bach on the
| guitar, and it was stunning. I went to a festival to hear him
| play live, and he really could barely struggle through the
| same works. He seemed on the verge of rage-quitting the
| performance, so maybe it wasn't going as he expected either?
| Hard to say, because I never went out of my way to hear him
| again.
| manuelflara wrote:
| > Somehow this is not considered cheating
|
| because it's supposed to be an art performance, which everyone
| understands is recorded and edited to produce the best result.
| this was supposed to be a "feat of skill", so of course using
| that same method is considered cheating, because you are lying
| about the implication that you were playing the song in one go
| and "perfect"
| ar_lan wrote:
| Pro movie directors do this too. In fact, it's so ubiquitous,
| there are several millions of dollars _per movie project_
| that go _strictly_ into editing.
|
| One of the best known examples of this, from Peter Jackson's
| The Lord of the Rings trilogy, notably did not even have a
| _single_ real Balrog appear in their raw footage.
|
| It's a shame he resorted to cheating - but what's strange is
| the trilogy is universally acclaimed as one of the greatest
| movie trilogies of all time.
| Hasnep wrote:
| It's not considered cheating because music is not a
| competition.
| bambax wrote:
| Of course music is a competition, in listeners' time, sales,
| streams, and awards.
| DonHopkins wrote:
| ...where musicians are graded on how dramatically they slap
| comedians before receiving their awards instead of how good
| their performance was, and comedians are graded on how well
| they take their slaps instead of how much the musician who
| slapped them just laughed at their jokes.
| fknorangesite wrote:
| Is it so unfathomable to you that people make art for its
| own sake?
| bambax wrote:
| No, it's not; in fact I do it myself. That doesn't change
| the fact that all artists are competing for the public's
| attention.
| positus wrote:
| Many are compelled from within to create and they have
| progressed and developed to the point where their art
| appeals to a large audience -- they do not produce out of
| competitive drive, but out of an intense inward force
| that they can only satisfy through creative expression.
| They are those who create because they must, not just
| because they can.
| pcwalton wrote:
| Multi-segment, or tool-assisted, speedruns are legitimate. The
| problem wasn't that the guy made multi-segment runs--it's that
| he passed off multi-segment runs as single-segment.
| whateveracct wrote:
| Rhythm games aren't music - they're more like Tetris
| Synaesthesia wrote:
| There was a similar controversy in Trackmania nations where the
| famous player "riolu" was busted for cheating.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDUdGvgmKIw
|
| https://donadigo.com/tmx1
| flobosg wrote:
| The Trackmania expose is mentioned at the end of the article:
| https://kotaku.com/trackmania-cheating-scandal-is-utterly-fa...
| munificent wrote:
| This is such a wild and kind of heartbreaking psychological loop
| you see people fall into time and time again:
|
| 1. Get legitimately good at some thing.
|
| 2. Become known for being better at that thing than others.
|
| 3. Have that reputation become a key part of their identity and
| self esteem.
|
| 4. Feel an internal pressure to keep getting even better at that
| thing to get more of that esteem.
|
| 5. Hit a wall where they are unable to honestly progress.
|
| 6. When forced to choose between sacrificing a pillar of their
| identity or their own personal integrity, crumble and start
| cheating.
|
| 7. The cheating buys them some time but the self esteem boost
| requires not just skill but _continual progress_. Now that they
| are already morally compromised, it 's easier to continue to
| cheat.
|
| 8. Eventually, in order to appear to keep getting better, the
| cheating becomes egregiously obvious.
|
| 9. Downfall.
|
| It's exactly like watching a drug addict build up a tolerance to
| their chemical of choice.
| chernevik wrote:
| There is a very similar cycle with a lot of financial fraud.
| RomanPushkin wrote:
| Original Metallica's "Master of Puppets" was a cheat - recorded
| at a lower speed, which was later confirmed by the band.
| cmckn wrote:
| This reminded me of this really fun story of a reporter who
| accidentally discovered that his wife is the best Game Boy Tetris
| player in the world (by a lot):
| https://archive.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2007...
| lqet wrote:
| She had a score of 841, which was broken just 3 months after
| her record by Neil Gewirtz with _2,349_ lines. The record is
| _5,164_ points now.
|
| https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/tetris-dx/game-boy-game-bo...
| kingcharles wrote:
| This was such a cute story, thank you.
| gverrilla wrote:
| Such a good read, thank you. There doesn't seem to be much
| content like this around: interesting, honest, non-directly-
| commercial, no fake news, no SEO bullshit. Really thanks was
| good 5 minutes.
| lqet wrote:
| Twin Galaxies did an interview with here [0], sadly that
| version is without line breaks.
|
| [0] https://www.twingalaxies.com/content.php/2614-Lori-Baker-
| Gam...
| mkl wrote:
| Run this in the browser console to insert line breaks:
| e = $('.article.postcontainer > font[size="2"]')[0];
| e.innerHTML = e.innerHTML.replace(/(LB:|TG:)/g,
| '<br><br>$1');
| vanderZwan wrote:
| > _One of the things that interesting to me about coming to a
| place like Funspot is seeing things like what happened today
| with your score, where people start to congregate, including
| me, watching someone absolutely take control of a game like
| you did._
|
| People love seeing people be competent. I miss this in modern
| TV series, btw. It's one of those things that makes the older
| Star Trek series so compelling. Or for a relatively recent
| example: The Martian. I wonder why it's so rare to see
| stories like that in fiction though?
|
| (thanks to the other commenter for pointing out how to fix
| the article)
| Arcorann wrote:
| Posted three days ago, funnily enough:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30820685
|
| I've never had much faith in 2000s-era Twin Galaxies
| scorekeeping, ever since I saw their recorded scores for
| Pokemon Pinball in the first Guinness World Records Gamer's
| Edition and realised that they were lower than my own (not
| especially good) scores.
|
| In this particular case, it turns out that if you count
| unofficial records, Japanese player Koryan (who incidentally is
| still active) recorded over 5000 lines in 2001 [1]; compare the
| TG verified record of 4988 set by Harry Hong one month after
| this article in 2007 and the current TG record of 5164 set by
| Tao Kitamoto in 2016 [2]. It's likely that Harry Hong could
| have beaten his previous record at any time if someone had
| contested it earlier.
|
| [1] http://www.din.or.jp/~koryan/tetris/sco.htm
|
| [2] https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/154227
| bena wrote:
| People have found out that if you get specific enough or if
| you choose something people don't really care about, you can
| get a Guinness World Record.
|
| For example: there's a guy who had a record invalidated for
| "fastest time to build the Lego UCS Millenium Falcon (75192)"
| because he forgot a piece. That's not the point. The point is
| that he clocked a time of right around 16 hours. Which I
| found weird. Because that's about what I clocked as well.
| Now, I wasn't super rigorous. When I started, I started a
| timer, when I finished for the day, I stopped the timer. At
| the end, I added all the times together.
|
| And I wasn't trying to build fast. I was just vaguely
| interested in how long it would take me to assemble a 7500
| piece set.
|
| There's a guy on Penn Jillette's podcast, Michael Goudeau.
| He's a clown. Like, professionally. He has the Guinness World
| Record for most bites taken out of an apple in a minute while
| juggling. Dude Perfect holds the Guinness World Record for
| most ping pong balls stuck on a person's head using shaving
| cream.
|
| Remember, Guinness doesn't approach people, people approach
| Guinness. Then there's a whole process about getting the
| record verified. If it seems like a lot of work for a piece
| of paper and to be an answer to a trivia question, you'd be
| right.
| wmwmwm wrote:
| I met someone years ago who was an adjudicator for
| Guinness. I remember two stories in particular. One was a
| trip to Venezuela to judge a biggest bowl of soup (chicken
| IIRC), the other to Italy for a biggest doner kebab! (yes
| Italy not Greece). She said her biggest concern was that
| the doner kebab would fall off an underspecced trolley and
| kill someone, though I imagine that would probably have
| achieved a record of its own!
| ar_lan wrote:
| I'm 99% sure I'm the best NBA Live 2004 (PS2) player in the
| world (by a lot), if it means anything :)
| waterpowder wrote:
| That was a good read, thanks for sharing!
| glandium wrote:
| Amazing story. This makes me wonder how many people unknowingly
| hold world records-breaking personal best.
|
| Edit: holy f%ck, the record is 4988 lines, now.
| https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/most-line...
| ummwhat wrote:
| As far as I know, I currently hold the world record score at
| knife fairy. The game of knife fairy is very simple. You must
| sneak into your roommates room late at night and slip a knife
| under their pillow. My current score is 1, so it should be
| easy to beat. Good luck!
| honkdaddy wrote:
| That's pretty funny! The record is from a month after this
| article was published, and it's held by the previous champ
| who Lori briefly dethroned, Harry Hong [1].
|
| Watching the gameplay is a trip - it's like watching an i9
| crunch numbers when you're used to a Pentium II.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/user/SuPaSaYaJiN/videos
| vanderZwan wrote:
| That's NES though, he doesn't seem to have his GBC records
| uploaded. I actually can't find any recordings of GBC
| records.
|
| But yeah, watching tetris pros is amazing. The "classic" is
| of course 2018's Jonas Neubauer vs. Joseph Saelee NES
| Tetris world championship match:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_UPHsGR6fM
|
| If you've never seen it before, you'd probably don't think
| you'd enjoy watching twenty minutes of two guys playing
| tetris. You'd be wrong.
| glandium wrote:
| Have you seen people play Tetris the Grand Master 3 past
| level 999?
| vanderZwan wrote:
| Oh yeah! Totally different type of Tetris though, kinda
| like... I dunno... rugby and Australian rules football?
| checkyoursudo wrote:
| Probably everyone, in some obscure thing or other. ;)
| dudeinjapan wrote:
| Reminds me a story from my 6th grade teacher who lived with the
| Maasai tribe in Kenya. One day she brought one of the tribesmen
| named Moses to Nairobi and they happened to pass by a stadium
| field where some men were practicing the javelin throw. Moses
| said "let me take a turn" and his throw landed far beyond where
| all the other javelins were clustered. Turns out it was the
| Kenyan national team... apparently they recruited him!
|
| I just Googled this and lo-and-behold:
| https://www.britishpathe.com/video/VLVA898C58S9MG8CMJB071BCI...
| beeforpork wrote:
| Fascinating! When I read the WR for Tetris was 327 lines, I
| realised that I was in that league, too, at the time. I never
| knew I was that good! I never thought about competition or even
| world records at that time! I remember it became boring after a
| few hundred lines, and I am sure I never made 800, let alone
| the 4988 someone else posted.
|
| Weird...
| vanderZwan wrote:
| > _She has her game face on; I didn 't even know she had a game
| face._
|
| Hahaha, amazing! Thank you so much for sharing that. Also a
| wonderfully wholesome story to balance out the one about
| cheating.
|
| Tangent: is it just me or does anyone else feel like this
| article is much better written than many long-form articles we
| see today? I'm obviously biased because of the subject, but
| still.
| sclangdon wrote:
| Karl Jobst (does a lot of speedrunnig videos) has a video on
| this, which is worth watching and explains everything in detail.
|
| https://youtu.be/58fqNL-kvaI
| hnlmorg wrote:
| I second this recommendation. The article is basically just a
| summary of Karl's video.
| ahahahahah wrote:
| And thank god for that. Karl's video is ridiculously drawn
| out and should've been a tenth the length.
| uhhyeahdude wrote:
| That's why you speedrun it
| fenomas wrote:
| Karl's channel is a great place to dive into. I guess he
| started as just a speedrunner, but in recent years he's been
| making terrific videos on deep mechanics of speedrunning, on
| cheating and cheat detection, etc. And he's done significant
| journalism on shady business in adjacent topics, like records-
| keeping organizations and the market for retro game cartridges.
| He's even been (being?) sued by Billy Mitchell (the King of
| Kong guy), whom Jobst calls the biggest conman in gaming.
|
| Really good channel to check out and support.
| jmcgough wrote:
| it's embedded in the very beginning of the article
| 22c wrote:
| The article is essentially just a rehash of Karl's video.
| InitialLastName wrote:
| Welcome to the M.O. of every (ex-) Gawker Media site. Find
| something on the internet that hasn't been covered, re-post
| it with enough summary to masquerade as an independent
| post, and get coverage on aggregator sites where most
| viewers never even glance at the original media.
| ocdtrekkie wrote:
| FWIW, I rarely desire to find out about something like
| this via a YouTube video. I'm rarely somewhere I want to
| listen to something with sound. When I am, I still
| usually would rather get to the point than listen through
| a ten minute narrative. Even if Gawker sites solely
| existed to regurgitate YouTube videos to text... I'd
| _pay_ for that service.
| somehnacct3757 wrote:
| It's interesting how the UI animations provided as juice by the
| game developer end up becoming anti-cheat devices. For those who
| haven't watched the vid, they discover video splices by observing
| a spinning animation (think circle loading animation) that plays
| during a full combo. If the animation jumps, there was a splice.
|
| All a developer has to do is randomize the starting position of
| the spinner during a full combo and it creates a non-
| deterministic signature for the run. Take note, game devs!
| kibwen wrote:
| Indeed, I've long thought about the idea of persistent,
| nondeterministic UI overlays as an effective anti-cheat device.
| Stuff a widget in a corner of the screen and make it match the
| game's visual aesthetic and nobody would even mind (and make
| sure it persists from the moment the game boots, including
| during loading screens). Of course, this would require
| developers to care about stymying cheating speedrunners, which
| they certainly don't. :P
| LocalH wrote:
| One of the ways he got caught was a fuckup on his part. He
| claimed a really high speed run of Through the Fire and Flames,
| and ended up taking the video down claiming copyright. This
| ended up being bunk, because someone saved the video while it
| was up and it turned out that he spliced in such a way as to
| "lose" something like 2,000 points mid-song. Guitar Hero has
| never had any mechanic to allow one to lose points they had
| already gained (unless it did in the earliest GH1 development
| days). The only thing even remotely close to that is the Big
| Rock Endings from the Rock Band series, where you have a series
| of freeform lanes to do whatever you want in order to build up
| a bonus, which is subsequently awarded to your actual score
| when you hit the final few gems after the BRE. But, those
| points aren't tallied to your total score until you actually
| hit the final gems. The score discrepancy in Schmooey's TTFAF
| video was a decrease in the actual score, as Clone Hero doesn't
| support Rock Band style BREs.
|
| It is literally impossible to have that happen legitimately,
| and that's why he took the video down, because it essentially
| was a key component of what busted him (and was also featured
| in the Jobst documentary).
| [deleted]
| dm319 wrote:
| A reminder of the cultural importance of youtube-dl.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| I think one thing to keep in mind is that cheaters in baseball,
| cycling, _and even Donkey Kong_ brought more eyeballs to those
| games than anyone could have imagined. I 'm sure a lot of
| people forgot GH existed before seeing this thread.
|
| I wonder how much devs should care about this in single player,
| score attack type games.
| sabas123 wrote:
| Scandals can also single handedly destroy (professional)
| scenes. This happened to Starcraft.
| Akinato wrote:
| Did they? I'd argue that the next highest competitor that is
| competing legitimately would bring just as many eyeballs to
| the games. People are attracted by watching the best of the
| best compete -- I don't think the exact score is as
| important.
|
| Unless you're talking scandals, and then I guess so? There's
| temporarily more eyes on the drama but it quickly drops off.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| They did. Feel free to make that argument. Just keep in
| mind, at one point, people thought Barry Bonds and Lance
| Armstrong were the best competitors competing legitimately,
| and people came to these sports in droves, so it's not an
| easy line in the sand to draw. Hell, can you even name the
| next highest competitor competing legitimately in the Tour
| de France 1999-2005? It's like those races never happened
| because so many people were cheating, but people were
| watching!
|
| Of course I'm not talking about scandals, because anyone
| who who has lived through this or even looked into this a
| little bit knows the scandals were devastating for the
| sports.
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