[HN Gopher] Nvidia Unveils 144-Core Grace CPU Superchip
___________________________________________________________________
Nvidia Unveils 144-Core Grace CPU Superchip
Author : manmal
Score : 75 points
Date : 2022-03-24 10:57 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.tomshardware.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.tomshardware.com)
| moralestapia wrote:
| It feels like the age of "personal" supercomputers is coming now
| :D!
| MrYellowP wrote:
| Wow! 144 cores combined with the power of ARM assembly
| ................
|
| This is _amazing!_ What a game changer! The software rendered
| demos one could code on this thing! I want one! :D
| reitzensteinm wrote:
| One thing I've long wondered is whether Nvidia would make a CPU
| and price it very aggressively, just to weaken Intel and AMD.
| Commoditize your complements.
|
| If you kill the x86 monopoly, CUDA could easily be the last
| proprietary lock in for general purpose compute. Not a bad place
| to be.
| ip26 wrote:
| At the cost of developing & manufacturing a competitive chip,
| would that make sense? I mean, if developing that chip takes
| half your opex, can you just give up margin on so much of your
| spend?
| downrightmike wrote:
| Probably why they wanted to buy ARM and got shut down.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| We already have cheap comodity ARM chips, it's called the
| Raspberry PI . It didn't make much of a dent in the X86 market.
| It's a niche of it's own in the consumer tinkerer and
| industrial embedded devices, but desktop computing is a tough
| market to crack, as explained by Linus Torvalds.
|
| Having (non-Apple) ARM assault the X86 ecosystem will take a
| lot of out of the box thinking and, most importantly,
| cooperation for standardization amongst the HW vendors for open
| standards, which is exactly what Nvidia doesn't like to do, as
| they always prefer the locked down ecosystem approach, contrary
| to the openness that lead the comodization and popularity of
| the IBM PC clones.
| tedunangst wrote:
| People aren't buying rpis to plug 3090s into.
| reitzensteinm wrote:
| On the high end we have Graviton and M1, which are both
| exclusive to their creator. Just releasing something
| competitive with Graviton that's accessible to the whole
| industry would accelerate the shift substantially.
|
| Where are the ARM instances on Google and Azure? Not to
| mention Oracle and IBM and other smaller cloud vendors.
| Companies running their own datacenters like Facebook and
| CloudFlare. Dedicated server providers too.
|
| There's a lot of high end volume in this space to attack the
| margins of.
|
| Nvidia prefers the locked down approach because it gives them
| a differentiated product with great margins. That doesn't
| mean they're incapable of a side project to torch the margins
| of their biggest competitors.
| imtringued wrote:
| One of the most amusing reasons why ARM fails to compete
| with x86 is that it simply isn't available. You have to go
| to specific vendors and get their specific flavor of ARM
| which means you must always consider a x86 fallback.
| my123 wrote:
| > Just releasing something competitive with Graviton that's
| accessible to the whole industry
|
| Ampere Altra, which has even more cores.
|
| > Where are the ARM instances on Google and Azure? Not to
| mention Oracle and IBM and other smaller cloud vendors.
|
| Azure: stay tuned, it's soon. Oracle Cloud: already out
| since a while :)
| reitzensteinm wrote:
| The Altra does look great, but there's a spotty history
| of smaller players building products in this space and
| not making it. Nvidia has staying power, and nobody will
| be worried about whether they'll go bankrupt mid rollout.
|
| I completely missed their deal with Oracle, though.
| That's pretty cool.
|
| To be clear, in my opinion the shift is going to happen
| regardless of whether Nvidia steps in - I just think they
| could accelerate it significantly and it would benefit
| them to do so.
| adventured wrote:
| > We already have cheap comodity ARM chips, it's called the
| Raspberry PI .
|
| No we don't, and no it's not. At least not as far as the mass
| consumer is concerned.
|
| Show me where a consumer can walk into Best Buy and purchase
| a PC with a decently powerful and _inexpensive_ ARM processor
| powering it in place of Intel or AMD. That 's something that
| Nvidia can actually make happen given its resources. The
| organization behind the Raspberry PI is microscopic by
| comparison, they have no resources to manage such an enormous
| consumer front (not even remotely close in fact).
|
| Your premise about the Raspberry PI is like techies on HN
| pretending that there's no need for x y z product/service,
| because you can just run your own social network on a machine
| in your closet at home, you can just run your own file
| server, you can just run your own mail server. No, consumers
| are never going to do that en masse. And consumers are never
| going to lean on the Raspberry PI to assemble their own
| machines either in massive quantities; that has to be a
| comprehensive, packaged product sold to them via retail that
| they plug in and use with zero assembly or hands-on
| customization required. It has to be relatively inexpensive
| and powerful enough to undercut and compete with what Intel
| and AMD bring to the table. Raspberry PI isn't even in the
| discussion.
| moondev wrote:
| Surface pro x?
| liamwestray wrote:
| Uhh. The ARM-based M1 Mac mini is literally sold at Best
| Buy for under $700.
|
| It will run circles around any desktop PC within the same
| price range.
|
| And yes, the Raspberry Pi 4/400 is perfectly usable for
| general desktop computing for students. The default desktop
| OS is intuitive and it includes modern browsers, can watch
| Netflix/Disney+ DRM media, and run LibreOffice or WPS
| Office.
|
| Similarly, the Pine64 Pinebook Pro is actually quite
| serviceable for general desktop use at < $250, but you can
| also buy a $999 M1 MacBook Air at Best Buy if your needs
| cannot be satisfied by sub $250 computers.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| Afaik the raspberry PI can't hardware accelerate stuff
| like Netflix in Browser so video watching experience is
| pretty ass.
| liamwestray wrote:
| You can do 1080p on the Pi4.
|
| https://itnext.io/the-2021-onward-guide-to-install-
| netflix-o...
|
| Edit:
|
| I've personally done it in browser. It works.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| Sure, but only once you tinker with it, not out if the
| box with Raspbian.
| liamwestray wrote:
| I've done it on Raspberry Pi OS.
|
| Edit:
|
| https://www.tomshardware.com/news/raspberry-pi-widevine
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| Like I said, you have to tinker with it first. Your
| average Walmart buyer doesn't want to Google tutorials
| and do stuff from the command line to get HW accelerated
| YouTube and Netflix when every $200 Android phone can do
| that out of the box without any tinkering.
| liamwestray wrote:
| HW accelerated Youtube already works out of the box on
| Raspberry Pi OS.
|
| It is less complicated to setup a Raspberry Pi than
| install Windows 11.
|
| Your average Walmart buyers don't even run antivirus,
| setup Google/Apply/Samsung Pay, install Microsoft Office,
| or know how to make a Windows 10/11 USB installer.
|
| $200 Android phones are notorious for not actually
| working correctly in getting apps to run.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> HW accelerated Youtube already works out of the box on
| Raspberry Pi OS._
|
| Yeah, only if you run some commands in the terminal from
| a tutorial, to enable that. That's where you loose most
| average joe consumers.
|
| _> It is less complicated to setup a Raspberry Pi than
| install Windows 11._
|
| Your average consumer has no idea and no intention on
| installing an OS, that's why all machines at Walmart come
| with one preinstalled including Macs and PC Laptops.
|
| _> $200 Android phones are notorious for not actually
| working correctly in getting apps to run._
|
| Funny, I have a 200 EUro Android phone that runs
| everything correctly including HW accelerated Youtube and
| Netflix out of the box. I guess your $200 Android phones
| are just broken somehow. Maybe return them or file a RMA
| ticket.
| liamwestray wrote:
| Doing 3 commands on Raspberry Pi OS to update the OS to
| the latest version and install a single program is not
| tinkering.
|
| sudo apt update sudo apt full-upgrade sudo apt install
| libwidevinecdm0
|
| There's no configuration to edit/change. There's no
| credit card or account setup necessary to download the
| app. This is objectively easier than setting up a new
| android device.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| Your average consumer won't want to run commands in there
| terminal to get a usable experience, regardless of how
| easy it is for you and me and everyone here.
| pjmlp wrote:
| > Uhh. The ARM-based M1 Mac mini is literally sold at
| Best Buy for under $700.
|
| So basically two months of salary for the average person
| in Portugal, and many more months in lesser fortunate
| parts of the globe.
| tokamak-teapot wrote:
| While Portugal has one of the lowest average salaries in
| Europe, it's still EUR 1100 Net. That's not the same as
| USD 350.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_
| by_...
| pjmlp wrote:
| If you are lucky enough to have an university degree.
| lostlogin wrote:
| If you don't mean 'average' maybe use some other measure.
| pjmlp wrote:
| I do mean the average know to most Portuguese folks, not
| numbers that fit the agenda of Apple sales people.
|
| And I bet most fellow country folks won't contradict me.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| The median income in Portugal is less than the mean, but
| the difference is less than 20%. That still puts an M1
| under a month's salary.
| sgjohnson wrote:
| What's the point you're trying to make? Poor people can't
| afford bleeding edge tech out of one month's salary?
|
| Apple doesn't care, and they have never cared about this.
| There's no profit in making ultra affordable state of the
| art electronics.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| Also, let's not forget that Apple stuff is usually more
| expensive outside the US, especially if you live in poor
| countries with high inflation and high taxes on imports.
|
| Are Portugal wages that low though? $350 is an average
| monthly wage in Russia, being lower than Romania or
| Bulgaria. I doubt the average Portuguese is that broke.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Yes, they are currently around 400 euros before taxes.
|
| In many companies you will be getting around 1000 euros
| for a job out of university.
| liamwestray wrote:
| Minimum wage in Portugal is $740 Euro per month.
|
| That's nowhere near the median or average.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Yeah when you are on a proper contract.
| makapuf wrote:
| Not that changes the bar of your argument, but it seems
| really low. I don't know this website, but it seems to
| indicate 2750 eur as average salary.
| http://www.salaryexplorer.com/salary-
| survey.php?loc=174&loct...
| pjmlp wrote:
| If you are lucky to have an university degree, and not
| working out of green receipts, where you are "freelancer"
| but actually only have one customer.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| 2750 Euros average salary seems pretty high for Portugal.
| Did they only survey those with great corporate jobs?
| liamwestray wrote:
| Wasn't aware Best Buy was in Portugal.
|
| Also, It's half a months Average Salary in Portugal.
|
| Edit:
|
| https://themacindex.com/variants/MGNR3/mac-
| mini-m1-256gb?cur...
| pjmlp wrote:
| If you are lucky to have an university degree, and not
| working out of green receipts, where you are "freelancer"
| but actually only have one customer.
| liamwestray wrote:
| You're young and just starting out, and its not easy
| coming out of CoViD and all the other stuff that's going
| on.
|
| But your arguments don't match actual data, your
| situation is an outlier as of 2022.
|
| https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-
| explained/index.php...
|
| The Median or Average income in Portugal can afford an M1
| Mac mini, and it is far less than 1 months wages. It also
| lasts for 5+ years.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> It also lasts for 5+ years._
|
| Yeah, good luck with that. Warranty in EU is 2 years. If
| it breaks after that and you have no Apple care, you can
| basically throw it in the bin, as it's not built to be
| cheaply repaired, with Apple's stance being either buy
| Apple care or buy a new one when it breaks. Perfect
| e-waste generator.
|
| Plus, the default storage of 256 GB on the base model is
| pitifully low for what is supposed to be a desktop PC in
| 2022, so you need to spec it up, increasing the price. I
| had that amount of storage on my entry level $400 HP
| ProBook in 2012! There's no way I'm paying more money for
| less storage, after 10 years of progress.
| liamwestray wrote:
| I think you are really overestimating what is available
| to consumers for under $1000 Euro/USD.
|
| This is what is typically available for under $800 Euro
| for desktops in Europe:
|
| https://www.worten.pt/informatica-e-
| acessorios/computadores/...
|
| 256gb is pretty standard outside of gaming/workstation
| class desktops all over the world. The M1 is twice the
| CPU of everything in the sub $800 USD/Euro market. It's
| not even comparable. Spend $60/year on AppleCare+ and you
| get warranty well beyond 2 years in Spain/France/etc.
|
| I haven't had a PC component break in less than 4-5 years
| on custom builds or OTS systems. My Macs have lasted 7-10
| years of functional use.
|
| I really don't get any of your arguments in this
| discussion. It's like you haven't actually use a
| Raspberry Pi in 3-4 years, and just want to knock Apple
| or ARM-based computers in general.
|
| Between $100-$700 USD there are multiple cheap ARM-based
| computers available for any level of consumer use. You
| can use a reliable but cheap Raspberry Pi 400 if you are
| budget constrained. You will have to install DRM
| software, just like we did with DVD player software DRM
| in the 2000s to make Netflix work if you go that route.
|
| If that doesn't work for the consumer they get a $700 Mac
| mini and it will have all out-of-the-box functionality a
| consumer needs, and outperform everything else they could
| find retail under $1000.
|
| We haven't even talked about Chromebook's because there's
| dozens of ARM-based Chromebook's that have already
| overtaken cheap Intel PCs for these markets. This isn't
| even opinion over what platform is "better", the market
| has already spoken, and cheap ARM-based PCes as well as
| powerful ARM-based PCs are the norm.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> I think you are really overestimating what is
| available to consumers for under $1000 Euro/USD. This is
| what is typically available for under $800 Euro for
| desktops in Europe: https://www.worten.pt/informatica-e-
| acessorios/computadores/..._
|
| I'm not overestimating, and I hope you're joking with
| that link, as I've bought a Lenovo laptop with an 8 core
| Ryzen 5800U and 2560x1600 display, 16GB RAM and 1TB NVME
| SSD for ~750 EUROS[1] last Christmas.
|
| Please stop exaggerating by cherry picking overpriced and
| outdated PC hardware as being the norm in Europe, it's
| not. Great PC hardware can be found at outstanding value
| if you look around a bit.
|
| _> 256gb is pretty standard outside of
| gaming/workstation class desktops all over the world._
|
| It's not though. I see many cheap laptops under 800 Euro
| with more than that. Many consumer want more RAM and more
| storage since they want to do more than just browse the
| web.
|
| _> The M1 is twice the CPU of everything in the sub $800
| USD/Euro market._
|
| Ok, but CPU cycles are in infinite supply regardless of
| your choice of CPU performance, but your base spec 8GB
| RAM and 256 GB of storage that come with that 800 Euro
| price tag are fixed and could be a limiting factor for
| some. My example gives you double the RAM and four times
| the storage. Good luck editing your favorite video on
| that powerful M1 chip if you run out of HDD space for it
| because you only have 256GB, and that's before the OS,
| swap and apps ate a chunk of it.
|
| _My Macs have lasted 7-10 years of functional use._
|
| Yeah, at 7 -10 year old, you're talking about the old
| Intel ones which where easily repairable as they were
| based on CotS hardware. How can you guarantee the same
| for the M1 SoC systems which are barely 1 year old and
| built using custom parts when you factor in Apple's anti-
| repair and anti-consumer stance?
|
| [1] https://altex.ro/laptop-lenovo-yoga-
| slim-7-13acn5-amd-ryzen-...
| liamwestray wrote:
| That's not a desktop.
|
| That was on sale at Christmas.
|
| That's the same price and performance as an M1 MacBook
| Air (slightly less actually under ideal circumstances).
|
| It gets 75% the battery life of the M1 MacBook Air.
|
| That has the same 2 year warranty in the EU.
|
| It is currently not on sale for that price and is above
| 800 Euros -- Mac minis and MacBook Airs also go on sale
| for the same price.
|
| The Portuguese guy still can't afford it, apparently.
|
| I literally gave a link to a major Portuguese retailer in
| the contextual country with dozens of PCs listed. You
| gave a sale item in another country with a spec you
| prefer that has no bearing on the average consumer.
|
| You are cherry picking badly.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> That's not a desktop._
|
| Yes, it's a laptop, a slimmer portable desktop with a
| built in battery, keyboard, mouse and display, so even
| better value for money making an even stronger argument
| against your outdated and overpriced example.
|
| _> That was on sale at Christmas_
|
| No it wasn't on sale. Why are you twisting my words? I
| literally said I bought it last Christmas. Not everything
| you buy around Christmas is on sale. Look at the price
| now, it hasn't changed.
|
| _> That's the same price and performance as an M1
| MacBook Air_
|
| It's not the same price, not even close. A base M1 CPU
| MacBook air specced up on their website to the same 16GB
| RAM and 1TB SSD is 1819 Euros, nearly 2.5x the price of
| the ~780 Euro Ryzen PC laptop I gave as an example.
|
| _> It is currently not on sale for that price and is
| above 800 Euros _
|
| What are you talking about? It literally is on sale and
| in stock at 3900 RON (~780 Euros) at the link I shared
| above.
|
| _> You gave a sale item in another country_
|
| I gave you a link from another EU country (EU tech
| pricing is similar within the block), since you claimed
| we don't have good options for PCs in Europe under 800
| USD, you didn't specifically ask about Portugal. Read
| your own comment again please.
|
| _> with a spec you prefer that has no bearing on the
| average consumer._
|
| No, I picked a spec that's closest to a base MacBook air
| in price, performance and form factor, but with double
| the RAM and four times the storage since some people need
| the extra memory and storage.
|
| As this conversation is degrading and going nowhere
| productive, I will have to end my side of the
| conversation with you here and never reply to you again.
| Have a nice evening sir.
| pjmlp wrote:
| 2 people and one chicken.
|
| Statistics say each one eats half of it.
|
| You are all over the place asserting to know more than
| people that actually know the country, based on random
| statistics.
| liamwestray wrote:
| I've lived in Spain and Italy as well as African and
| Middle Eastern Countries.
|
| Your personal experience is not the average or median
| one.
| digitallyfree wrote:
| Well the Macs are marketed to consumers, the Pi and the
| Pinebook are not - they're seen as techie or hobbyist
| Linux devices. The general consumer looking for a non-
| Apple computer would simply dismiss these options and
| pick up a "regular" x86, even if the cheap ARM machine
| may fit their needs.
| liamwestray wrote:
| Regardless, Mac minis go on sale for under $600 and
| provide probably the best consumer computing experience
| in the world for the least amount of money.
|
| The guy saying he can't go into Best Buy and buy a
| consumer ARM machine has ignored the last 2 years.
| [deleted]
| a9h74j wrote:
| Also honorable mention: Arm-based chromebooks, for some
| purposes.
| jchw wrote:
| I agree most people won't run a Raspberry Pi as a desktop.
| That is obviously true. I don't think they were too far off
| the mark, though. Would the average person run a $300 ARM
| Chromebook? Probably. That exists today, too.
|
| > Your premise about the Raspberry PI is like techies on HN
| pretending that there's no need for x y z product/service,
| because you can just run your own social network on a
| machine in your closet at home, you can just run your own
| file server, you can just run your own mail server. No,
| consumers are never going to do that en masse.
|
| I used to be absolutely sure this could never, ever happen.
| It definitely can't and won't happen any time soon.
|
| However, it's clear that the promise of the home server
| came far too early. I think the sentiment a lot of people
| have is that even if someone sold the perfect products and
| software, nobody would ever want it. Sure, it would offer
| the user more autonomy and control, but it costs money and
| is a constant responsibility. Nobody is going to ever feel
| a need to go out and do that when they can just pay a
| monthly fee for someone else to take care of it.
|
| Except people take that exact trade off all the time; Home
| ownership. Owning a home is also an expensive ordeal,
| extremely expensive at that, that comes with many
| responsibilities, and yet most people still long for the
| autonomy and control and other life benefits it has to
| offer. No individual _has_ to own a house in most areas;
| you could rent, or buy a condominium unit, and have
| significantly less overall responsibility. I don't think
| most people want to rent even if it was cheaper. Home
| ownership is a north star for many people.
|
| For better or worse, computers and the internet don't seem
| to be becoming any less important for society. Mega corps
| rise and fall, paradigms shift, prices fall, software
| evolves. There's a whole lot of growing distrust for
| corporations and their governments in tech right now, _even
| to the layperson_ , and definitely to lawmakers.
|
| In the past few decades, people went out and bought
| expensive modems and big complicated desktop computers
| often just to experience the magic of the Internet. As far
| as I'm concerned, anything could still happen.
|
| And after that, the year of the Linux desktop will surely
| follow.
| einpoklum wrote:
| While I agree that Raspberry PI is not the same being able
| to buy PCs with an ARM chip - I must say you are over-
| reaching with your argument. Have a look at:
|
| https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/raspberry-pi-400/
|
| this is a small PC, fitting inside a keyboard, based on the
| Raspberry PI. No assembly needed other than connecting it
| to peripherals - but that's like any other PC. Other than
| the keyboard housing it, it comes with a mouse and a PSU.
|
| It costs 100 USD and available from many vendors around the
| world, e.g.:
|
| https://chicagodist.com/products/raspberry-
| pi-400-kit?src=ra...
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| "We already have cheap comodity ARM chips, it's called the
| Raspberry PI"
|
| It's like 5 times slower than the chip in my 10 year old
| laptop.
| vardump wrote:
| Raspberry Pi 4 is not going to be 5 times slower than your
| 10 year old laptop, unless it was really specced out. IIRC,
| RPi 4 is about as fast as Core 2 Duo.
| jotm wrote:
| Funnily enough, a C2D T9600 (midrange mobile dual core at
| the time) _is_ 5 times slower than a Core i7-3610qm (10
| years old, entry level mobile quad core) :D
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| Intel performance jumps were crazy back then. You could
| expect +50% improvement between generations but you also
| gotta remember process manufacturing was moving fast back
| then too. 90nm to 65nm to 45nm within a few years.
| Retric wrote:
| It's not that crazy, i7-3770K @ 153.48 GFLOPs vs Broadcom
| BCM2711 @ 13.5 GFLOPS. You can get various benchmarks to
| favor one over the other, but it's still a large gap.
| liamwestray wrote:
| That era of I3-i7 was 20-150 Gflops.
|
| Given the Pi is a low-cost device, it's not terrible
| unreasonable to at least compare it to the 20-50 Gflop
| CPUs of that period.
|
| But it's also not exactly fair as the HW Decode for video
| really makes them feel significantly faster in most
| process intensive workloads for general consumers, and
| USB3/eMMC/Micro SD cards are significantly faster than
| the IO used on iX-2000 to iX-4000 era computers (and
| later).
|
| The Pi4 is almost modern desktop capable for office/admin
| work. You're at about 25% CPU utilization using HW
| accelerated 1080p video on a Pi4. Still a little slow,
| but desktop software and most web apps run as well on a
| 4gb or 8gb Pi4 as they do on a low-end PC.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| > Given the Pi is a low-cost device, it's not terrible
| unreasonable to at least compare it to the 20-50 Gflop
| CPUs of that period.
|
| It exists today, not 10 years ago. Todau I have to run 5
| electron apps in the background before I can even start
| working, PI simply cannot handle even my basic day to day
| tasks.
| liamwestray wrote:
| Yeah, but you probably wouldn't buy a computer under $600
| to begin with though, either, right?
|
| You need at least 8gb of ram, and more than an 128gb of
| storage (i.e. eMMC and SDcards).
|
| I very much doubt any sub $250 computer could really
| handle your basic day-to-day tasks (or anyone else' on
| HN).
|
| ARM-based Chromebook's have already proven that Pi
| 4-comparable SoCs can do most basic computing needs for
| consumers.
|
| The idea that essential computing needs can be met with a
| $100 Pi 400 and a $50 Screen is just kinda crazy.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| > Given the Pi is a low-cost device, it's not terrible
| unreasonable to at least compare it to the 20-50 Gflop
| CPUs of that period.
|
| What specific chips do you have in mind? By that same
| benchmark, an i3-3210 has 58.9Gflops. So that's still 4x
| higher, and 8x higher per core.
| liamwestray wrote:
| I was looking at this:
|
| https://www.intel.com/content/dam/support/us/en/documents
| /pr...
|
| Kinda just went with the bottom half of the 2010-2014 era
| chips.
| barkingcat wrote:
| 10 years ago was 2012. You got your years wrong. Core 2
| Duo was 2006. You'd probably be thinking about 16 years
| ago.
| wmf wrote:
| Previous discussion from 4 days ago:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30768704
| fb03 wrote:
| How far are we from just having very nice and power efficient arm
| computers and laptops? I don't care about the X86 legacy, if I
| want something there I can simply buy a machine with that
| processor.
|
| I just want a beefy ATX form factor PC or even a laptop with
| "standard components" that can run Linux and maybe some light
| office work or gaming.
|
| Is this asking too much? Why are we still using X86 on the !OSX
| stuff?
| rnantes wrote:
| The 2023 Nuvia based Qualcomm Laptop SOCs are coming in 2023
| and could bring M1-Like performance to windows.
| https://www.anandtech.com/show/17075/qualcomm-x-nuvia-silico...
| gjsman-1000 wrote:
| Remember though that Qualcomm also claimed their first-gen
| 8cx with Windows offered performance competitive with a
| mobile Core i5 - though this was laughed out of the room when
| reviewers got it.
| refulgentis wrote:
| Astonishingly close...very quietly, because it requires a
| spectrum of indepth knowledge across Android x Apple
| ecosystems...the mid-range Android phone chip maker, MediaTek,
| has a chip that beats Intel 11th gen and M1. (not the fancier
| M1s like the "duct tape two together" for Mac Studio). 2 years
| out, you're looking at a real shift, presuming QC's acquisition
| of the Apple diaspora's desktop ARM cpu startup goes well. (I
| presume nothing when it comes to QC)
| secondcoming wrote:
| What have Android and Apple got to do with arm desktop
| machines?
| marcodiego wrote:
| > MediaTek, has a chip that beats Intel 11th gen and M1.
|
| Sincerely interested. Please provide source.
| [deleted]
| fabrice_d wrote:
| Which MTK SoC are you referring to?
| mhh__ wrote:
| Apple spend decades building up to being ready for the apple
| silicon switch. The IP simply isn't there at the moment in the
| high performance space.
|
| Arm know it works now, so maybe they can go bigger.
| tyingq wrote:
| I'm guessing it's much easier for Apple since they do one set
| of drivers for chip peripherals/bridges/etc, one way of doing
| boot, bios setup, etc.
|
| In the generic PC space, the operating systems have to deal
| with however each manufacturer chooses to do things. So it's
| harder for any one manufacturer to get enough leverage with
| Microsoft and Linux to support their devices.
| 10000truths wrote:
| It would be nice if every manufacturer adhered to a standard
| interface specification, like NVME, but for network adapters,
| video cards, audio, etc. So that one set of drivers would
| work for any combination of parts. It would greatly
| democratize OS development.
| phyalow wrote:
| M1 arm64 Macbooks exist and are incredible.
| lostlogin wrote:
| > !OSX stuff
|
| Though I've been messing about with emulation and it's fine.
| pjmlp wrote:
| For those that happen to live in first world countries or
| have the luck to have their employer sponsor their work
| laptops.
| XCSme wrote:
| An M1 Macbook Air is 900euros, not a lot more than a
| similar specs Windows laptop.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Most people are just fine with a 300 euro Windows laptop.
|
| 900 euros can be several months of salary in less
| fortunate countries.
| XCSme wrote:
| I understand, but in that case I don't think we should
| compare/expect state of the art technology and build
| quality in that price range (unless there are specific
| discounts/incentives for those regions).
|
| I think that the point of your initial comment was not
| related to the subject, which was more about the
| performance part than the pricing part.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Because the majority of the world cares about their binaries.
| mhh__ wrote:
| How could you tell when they have no option to switch to?
| Emulation has been done successfully for decades.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Apparently not successfully enough to move people away from
| Intel en mass.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _[still using X86] because the majority of the world cares
| about their binaries_
|
| Could you please elaborate?
| perihelions wrote:
| Thinkpad is starting an ARM line in May,
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30497616 ( _" Lenovo
| announces the first Arm-based ThinkPad"_, 248 comments)
| schaefer wrote:
| Man, I hope those get official Linux support. :)
| baybal2 wrote:
| htk wrote:
| Seems to be a great fit for Genetic Programming.
| The_rationalist wrote:
| Asking the real question here: will Nintendo use those Grace CPUs
| for the Switch successor?
| softfalcon wrote:
| Considering this Grace CPU is competing with large scale server
| compute processors like AMD's Epyc Rome chips, I would have to
| say that it is VERY unlikely we'll see this in a switch (or
| successor) of any kind.
|
| These Grace CPU's are not architected or designed for low power
| mobile or consoles in any way.
| mhh__ wrote:
| Maybe not a switch but a fast Arm (not a dinky tegra) processor
| would be a game-changer any steam deck 2.0 type of device.
| chockchocschoir wrote:
| The doesn't seem very rational, Nintendo doesn't aim for
| prettiest graphics or best hardware, they aim for best family
| friendly game experience, without focusing on graphics or
| hardware. The Switch prove that their strategy works out as
| well, so they are unlikely to suddenly change tactics.
|
| PlayStation and Xbox do aim for best graphics with the best
| hardware though, so they are more likely to go with this than
| anyone else.
| The_rationalist wrote:
| Yes that was their strategy up to now, but they are
| increasingly obscolete. Nintendo is stuck in the past, the
| Switch (2017) has games with lower visuals than the PS3
| (2006). (I believe the switch CPU to be on par or superior
| but the GPU to be noticeably inferior) People are tasting the
| incredible graphics of the PS5 and in contrast the switch is
| irrelevant. I agree that games can be fun without needing
| realistic graphisms however for maximizing fun a PS4 level
| performance is the bare minimum.
| detaro wrote:
| Not really seeing it, the switch is targeting and reaching
| a lot of people who won't buy Playstations. A next-gen
| Switch with better performance wouldn't need to compete
| head-to-head with the Playstation on visuals either to be
| successful. (Given you rank Switch below PS3, if visuals
| were so important, shouldn't Switch have been handily
| beaten even by the PS4?)
| The_rationalist wrote:
| There are significantly more sales of PS4 than switch,
| also nintendo live on its laurels but people will become
| tired of the stagnation eventually
| jra101 wrote:
| PS4: ~117M sold in 9 years Switch: ~104M sold in 5 years
|
| Switch is averaging 20M units/year and PS4 is averaging
| 13M units/year.
| whiskers wrote:
| PS4 has sold 117m units (around 1m in the past year) and
| Switch has sold 104m so far (around 20m in the past
| year). You can bet Switch will overtake it very soon...
| detaro wrote:
| Why are you assuming that Nintendo is stagnating in
| comparison? Yes, in the meantime new generations of other
| consoles have come out, but after equally long gaps on
| their side. (PS4->PS5 was 9 years, and Switch will
| outsell PS4 over its lifetime easily)
|
| And the Switch users I know generally don't care about
| PS5 graphics at all. It's not really the same market.
| zimpenfish wrote:
| > There are significantly more sales of PS4 than switch
|
| With a 4 year head start, the PS4 has 116.9m, the Switch
| has 103.5m[1]. Averaged over the years, the PS4 is
| lagging the Switch by nearly half - 14.6m/y vs 25.9m/y,
| no?
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-
| selling_game_cons...
| The_rationalist wrote:
| Right
| elcomet wrote:
| That's exactly what the parent is talking about. Nintendo
| is focusing on fun, not graphics. And it's working, they
| have a huge market of users.
|
| And it seems you're not the target if you cannot enjoy a
| game without good graphisms.
| whiskers wrote:
| Nintendo Switch has sold 100m+ units - over 20m of which
| were in the last year. It's by no means obsolete, it just
| serves a different market than the one you're interested
| in.
| philsnow wrote:
| PC / xbox+playstation / switch are almost completely
| separate markets. It has never entered my mind that "I
| should buy an xbox/playstation", not once. I have had NES,
| (original) game boy, SNES, gamecube, wii, and now a switch.
| It's not about the switch being cheaper than current-gen
| high-end consoles, it's that the games that are exclusives
| for those consoles just don't appeal to me.
| The_rationalist wrote:
| Please tell me the switch games that you enjoyed the
| most. I am able to properly emulate the switch on yuzu
| but I just can't find enjoyable games, contrary to on my
| PS3 emulator.
| InvaderFizz wrote:
| The entire first party library of Nintendo Games have
| been great, many of which are ports from the WiiU.
|
| My personal favorites: Mario Odyssey, Mario 3D World,
| Luigi's Mansion 3, Breath of the Wild, Pikmin3, and
| Captain Toad.
|
| My son is really into Splatoon 2, Minecraft Dungeons, and
| Mario Maker.
|
| My wife plays all the Pokemon/Animal Crossing/Harvest
| Moon games.
|
| We'll be playing the new Kirby game this evening.
| The_rationalist wrote:
| Thanks for sharing, I'll give them a try (this and crash
| bandicoot). I already played breath of the wild and it is
| a technological prodigy however I felt the open world was
| too open/free and not enough filled with narration.
| my123 wrote:
| Grace is a very big Tegra, it's just not intended for that.
|
| NVIDIA has small Tegra chips too, with the Jetson Nano next
| coming next year. That might use the same SoC as an upcoming
| Switch.
|
| (and Orin/Atlan as more medium-sized Tegra)
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| Nicksil wrote:
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
| fulafel wrote:
| Seems the 1.5x vs EPYC claim is from SPECrate_2017_int_base
| benchmark.
| hrgiger wrote:
| afaik that bench still widely used but the epyc rome they
| mentioned is zen 2. As i understand it is still slightly faster
| than milan series but the power consumption is half of it. Here
| is benchmark result of 7713p
| https://www.spec.org/cpu2017/results/res2021q4/cpu2017-20210...
| ip26 wrote:
| It seems like 2P Milan would be the suitable comparison,
| based on core count, wattage, CXL link, and so on.
| hrgiger wrote:
| you are right here 7763 result searchable when selecting
| processor 870ish in general, btw CXL not there yet
|
| https://www.spec.org/cgi-bin/osgresults?conf=cpu2017
| TooKool4This wrote:
| AND it seems to be based on a simulation which can be fudged in
| all sorts of ways. Nvidia's track record with cpus is spotty at
| best. Not sure how much weight to put on these claims, at least
| until there is a shipping product.
|
| > Nvidia based this claim on a pre-silicon simulation that
| predicts the Grace CPU at a score of 740+ (370 per chip).
| petra wrote:
| What kind of benefits would using large amount of HBM3 memory
| would have on the Grace CPU ? How big of an improvement in common
| tasks ?
|
| Or is it just an overkill for a CPU, in general ? Have they
| solved the "Memory Wall" for CPU's with their current
| implementation ?
| mirekrusin wrote:
| How do they know that it's going to be the fastest chip in one
| year?
|
| Frankly announcing anything about chip that (maybe?) will appear
| in one year is a bit... too far in the future, no?
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