[HN Gopher] The Welfare Effects of Dynamic Pricing: Evidence fro...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       The Welfare Effects of Dynamic Pricing: Evidence from Airline
       Markets
        
       Author : rustoo
       Score  : 70 points
       Date   : 2022-03-25 12:43 UTC (10 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (onlinelibrary.wiley.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (onlinelibrary.wiley.com)
        
       | bannedbybros wrote:
        
       | woopwoop wrote:
       | Are there any estimates on the welfare effects of forbidding
       | buyers from reselling tickets? This has always struck me as one
       | of the more outrageous market distortions one encounters on a
       | regular basis.
        
       | cbdumas wrote:
       | Why don't retailers of luxury durable goods use dynamic pricing?
       | Surely Best Buy would love to charge the actual market price
       | (~$800 from a quick eBay search) for a PS5. Sony could just
       | auction batches of consoles to retailers and let them price /
       | promote however they want. Instead they stick to MSRP, leading to
       | shortages at retailers and leaving lots of money on the table for
       | resellers. I don't get it.
        
         | HWR_14 wrote:
         | Because that nets Sony an extra $150/unit (assuming Best Buy
         | pays 1/2 the unit price). But Sony's customers feel cheated.
         | Customers can handle not getting a unit via a "fair" practice,
         | but they resent the rich explicitly getting better treatment
         | for things like that. Also, they cannot plan a budget. Right
         | now, if you have $500 you have a PS5 eventually. In your world,
         | they buy an Xbox or spend it on something else because they
         | don't want to keep saving and getting priced out.
         | 
         | But keep in mind consoles are all network effects, and the real
         | money is on subscriptions and commissions on games. So, Sony
         | gets a one time pop in revenue, fewer units lead to fewer
         | exclusives, leads to more people selecting XBox in the future.
         | 
         | I think MS was willing to lose a billion on the first Xbox to
         | get sufficient traction. If we discount inflation entirely and
         | assume that was a reasonable value, Sony would have to sell
         | 6.67 million units to be equal to the cost of losing a console
         | war. And they could always end up pulling a Sega.
        
         | secabeen wrote:
         | Because Sony wants the official retail price to be $X. If you
         | get an allocation from Sony, and then sell at $x+300, you won't
         | get any more allocation.
        
       | em500 wrote:
       | Some notes for the non-economically schooled readers:
       | 
       | - Ungated (working paper) versions are here[1] and here[2]
       | 
       | - This was published in Econometrica, one of the top journals in
       | economics. That doesn't mean that the results are true, but it
       | means that the the math and methodology are probably sound. If
       | you want to attack the results, the weaknesses are probably in
       | the (implicit) model assumptions.
       | 
       | - In economic lingo, "welfare" means consumer surplus (buyer gets
       | a good deal) + producer surplus (seller makes a profit). Standard
       | academic economics analysis is indifferent wether the producer or
       | consumer gets the profits (i.e. between producers selling at
       | costs and consumers buying cheaper that they'd be willing to pay,
       | and producers maximizing profit while consumers maximum they're
       | willing to pay). "Higher welfare" in dynamic pricing vs uniform
       | pricing means that the sum is higher in dynamic pricing. In this
       | context it basically means that more flights are flown using
       | dynamic pricing than would have been in uniform pricing. Negative
       | externalities from more flights are usually out of scope for a
       | paper like this.
       | 
       | - Airlines can adjust prices continuously for the same flight as
       | a response to demand changes, or price discrimination (charge
       | more to those willing to pay more, i.e. business travelers). The
       | paper claims as a key contribution the disentanglement of these
       | motives. I haven't gone through it to see if it's sound, but when
       | since it's published in Econometrica, it will probably take quite
       | some time to fully digest.
       | 
       | [1]
       | https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w28989/w289...
       | 
       | [2]
       | https://cowles.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/pub/d21/d2...
        
         | clairity wrote:
         | > "Standard academic economics analysis is indifferent wether
         | _[sic]_ the producer or consumer gets the profits... "
         | 
         | that's an objective-sounding position to take, but it's
         | certainly not, even from a purely detached, academic
         | perspective. in most situations, consumer surplus is better for
         | a market and for the overall economy, because it provides more
         | choice points for more efficient allocation. in the
         | unfortunately rare case of a relatively fair and competitive
         | market, producer surplus _can_ be a net good, making the
         | overall market and economy more efficient, but in practice,
         | companies have shown time and again to be pretty poor
         | allocators of capital because they necessarily take fewer bets
         | with larger amassed asset pools. however, economists generally
         | (implicitly) assume _a priori_ that markets are relatively fair
         | and competitive in their analyses (akin to assuming
         | frictionless infinite planes).
         | 
         | all that's to say, size does matter, negatively beyond some
         | optimal point on the economies of scale/scope curves. as such,
         | markets are at their best when populated primarily by small- to
         | medium-sized companies, with no artificial barriers to new
         | entrants (e.g., not the airline industry).
         | 
         | no matter the 'prestigiousness' of the journal, seemingly small
         | (implicit) assumptions like this that can have huge
         | implications on results necessitates skepticism toward academic
         | economics.
        
           | bschne wrote:
           | > seemingly small (implicit) assumptions like this that can
           | have huge implications on results necessitates skepticism
           | toward academic economics
           | 
           | It mostly just means you need to be very careful in
           | interpreting the results, or be careful when someone uses it
           | to motivate policy prescriptions as they themselves may have
           | a questionable interpretation -- like with any academic
           | finding.
        
         | geysersam wrote:
         | Isn't the conclusion trivial? With perfect price
         | discrimination, every buyer exposes their exact utility gain
         | from buying the product, that's the price they'll pay for it.
         | Of course the resource will be allocated optimally.
         | 
         | Naturally in this situation only the seller will benefit from
         | the transaction. Everyone else is +-0. Utility/"welfare" is
         | maximized but consumers get none of it.
         | 
         | And of course, in the end even talking about utility assumes
         | the price someone is willing to pay reflects their utility
         | gain. This is the most fundamental assumption in economics, but
         | it's pretty clear that in the real world this is not the case.
         | Especially for luxury goods such as air travel.
        
           | lotsofpulp wrote:
           | > And of course, in the end even talking about utility
           | assumes the price someone is willing to pay reflects their
           | utility gain. This is the most fundamental assumption in
           | economics, but it's pretty clear that in the real world this
           | is not the case. Especially for luxury goods such as air
           | travel.
           | 
           | Why? I would expect luxury goods to reflect utility very
           | accurately since they are not necessary purchases.
           | 
           | If you are paying $1k to go travel to Disney World, then that
           | seems like a pretty good signal that the flight to Disney
           | World gave you at least $1k worth of utility.
        
             | geysersam wrote:
             | Does the $1k to go to Disney land buy the same utility as
             | the $1k average yearly income in Bangladesh?
             | 
             | Or the utility a 80th percentile household in the US could
             | buy for the same amount.
        
               | lotsofpulp wrote:
               | I have never heard of utility to be used as an objective
               | measure. It is subjective, symbolizing an individual's
               | (perceived) value of a transaction relative to other
               | possible transactions.
               | 
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility
               | 
               | > a utility function that represents a single consumer's
               | preference ordering over a choice set but is not
               | comparable across consumers. This concept of utility is
               | personal and based on choice
        
               | geysersam wrote:
               | Of course utility is used as an objective measure. That's
               | the basic foundation of utilitarianism, and
               | utilitarianism is the ethical foundation of market
               | economics.
        
               | solveit wrote:
               | Philosophers spend a lot of time trying to figure out a
               | way to define an objective measure of utility that can be
               | compared across different people. This is necessary for
               | many formulations of utilitarianism. And probably many HN
               | commenters are more familiar with the word in this
               | context. That economists use the same word with a much
               | more limited scope does tend to detract from discussions
               | like this, I feel.
        
               | lotsofpulp wrote:
               | This discussion is specifically about economics, linked
               | to an article in a prominent economics publication.
        
               | geysersam wrote:
               | The paper talks about maximizing "welfare" what is that
               | if not an objective measure of utility?
        
               | solveit wrote:
               | > even talking about utility assumes the price someone is
               | willing to pay reflects their utility gain
               | 
               | It does. It reflects their utility gain relative to the
               | utility they gain by spending that money somewhere else,
               | or just keeping the money for the future. People not made
               | of straw do not generally believe that the price someone
               | is willing to pay reflects somebody else's utility. Nor
               | are they unaware of the tendency for marginal utility to
               | decrease.
        
           | notahacker wrote:
           | It's nontrivial because the price discrimination isn't
           | perfect, and the paper looks at a number of secondary
           | considerations (most notably the assumption that pricing
           | dynamicalkly purely based on how far in advance bookings are
           | made captures the difference between a class of business
           | travellers who prefer a situation in which they have to pay
           | _even higher_ prices to ensure seats are available with a day
           | or two 's notice, and leisure travellers whose flexibility
           | around travel dates means they care more about price than
           | availability of the lowest price tickets)
           | 
           | I do agree that it's unremarkable that price discrimination
           | results in higher total welfare than uniform prices though,
           | and all the other conclusions are completely in line with
           | expectations. Its also the case that the airline's own price
           | discrimination models will be more sophisticated with access
           | to better (commercially sensitive) data than this stylised
           | version
        
           | DiggyJohnson wrote:
           | I think you might find lots of economics results to be
           | "trivial", because the results do not contain the value of
           | the work. Constructing a model, linking it to reality, and
           | finding that it fits our expectations (captured in the
           | "trivial conclusion") and is robust to secondary factors is
           | what's valuable.
           | 
           | Think about the study of inflation. I'm sure lots of work has
           | been done to show how low interest rates have impacted
           | inflation. I won't be surprised when they show how these
           | interest rates have led to increased inflation, but I'll be
           | interested in the mechanics and model leading to the
           | unsurprising result.
        
         | tomrod wrote:
         | Note that journal is _Econometrica_ , not _Econometrics_ , and
         | is widely considered _the top_ journal for quantitative work in
         | economics. (slight nitpick in case OP statement causes
         | confusion).
         | 
         | This is the kind of paper that goes a far way to establish
         | tenure. Good job to the author if that is their stage in their
         | career.
        
           | em500 wrote:
           | Noted and corrected, thanks.
        
       | IG_Semmelweiss wrote:
       | I agree with the paper's conclusions. Dynamic pricing is a good
       | thing. But lets take a counterexample:
       | 
       | Amazon tried this years ago. They changed pricing on the same sku
       | based on who was shopping for it.
       | 
       | The blowback was tremendous. Amazon had to actually back down.
       | 
       | My take is that consumers understand and are willing to put up
       | with dynamic pricing for airplane seats because the algorithm is
       | presumably understood.
       | 
       | I'm willing to accept that the person sitting next to me on an
       | airplane may have paid 1/3 than the price I paid on my ticket.
       | Maybe the person next to me booked earlier, or booked when the
       | airline had a promo going. Sounds reasonable.
       | 
       | But what happens when airlines quietly change algos...to raise
       | prices because of my browsing habits, IP, or CC used?
       | 
       | I bet you this is coming
        
         | pessimizer wrote:
         | > to raise prices because of my browsing habits, IP, or CC
         | used?
         | 
         | Or higher prices because you have Prime, or pricing either
         | intentionally or inadvertently based on race, sex, religion, or
         | sexual orientation?
        
         | JoshTriplett wrote:
         | > My take is that consumers understand and are willing to put
         | up with dynamic pricing for airplane seats because the
         | algorithm is presumably understood.
         | 
         | I think consumers put up with dynamic pricing for airline seats
         | because they don't have another option available, and because
         | it's a long-standing practice that didn't _change_ in an era
         | where that change would have generated blowback.
         | 
         | > But what happens when airlines quietly change algos...to
         | raise prices because of my browsing habits, IP, or CC used?
         | 
         | This has already happened:
         | https://business.time.com/2012/06/26/orbitz-shows-higher-pri...
         | 
         | Orbitz showed higher prices to Mac users because they figured
         | (probably correctly) that Mac use was correlated with
         | willingness to pay more. They stopped that practice when it
         | became widely known, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if
         | others do the same and don't get caught.
        
         | tomrod wrote:
         | > Dynamic pricing is a good thing
         | 
         | I'm not sure dynamic pricing is necessarily pareto improving (I
         | think this might be what you mean by "is a good thing"? For
         | folks that are learning this lingo, pareto improving -- at
         | least one party better off and none worse off). I'd have to
         | think through it a bit.
        
           | colinmhayes wrote:
           | Plenty of good things are not pareto improvements. If someone
           | is a little worse off but someone else is much better off
           | that is a good thing.
        
             | tomrod wrote:
             | I believe that depends on the ethical system you espouse.
             | Egalitarianism, yes. Utilitarianism, not necessarily (so-
             | called utility monster). And so on.
        
           | hammock wrote:
           | It's definitely not. This is why the welfare effect is
           | described in the abstract as having directionality
        
         | offbynull wrote:
         | > to raise prices because of my browsing habits, IP, or CC
         | used?
         | 
         | How would this work when most people get their flights through
         | aggregators? I search for flights on Google Flights. I imagine
         | Google Flights just hits a database somewhere to get times,
         | prices, number of stops, etc.. rather than share my information
         | with every airline.
        
           | shmatt wrote:
           | From my personal experience that sort of stuff doesn't happen
           | anymore due to aggregators. Prices do change based on the
           | moment you searched, but I've constantly been getting the
           | same price across ITA Matrix / Google Flights / Airline
           | Official Website / Priceline
           | 
           | No Incognito or VPN needed
           | 
           | What I do still see changing based on different metrics like
           | IP are car rental prices and hotel prices
           | 
           | All US car rental companies give much cheaper prices to
           | foreigners. I don't know the reasoning but its absurd, A
           | rental car in Manhattan for Easter weekend will cost you
           | $300/day on kayak.com and $70/day at the same exact branch on
           | kayak.com.hk (this also works on the companies official
           | websites when changing "country of residence")
        
           | saiya-jin wrote:
           | I never, ever, super-duper seriously ever again buy airline
           | tickets from anybody but airlines directly. Use to be cheap
           | like that, thinking how clever I was saving few bucks here
           | and there just by using other seller for the same plane. I
           | use search engine to look generally what's the pricing/timing
           | situation but that's it.
           | 
           | Then you hit issues, delayed flights etc. and every single
           | helpdesk' first question is: did you book with us or through
           | reseller? If by reseller, please contact them, goodbye and
           | have a nice day. If by us, here is completely brand new
           | ticket for free at best possible available time.
           | 
           | Life if too short and I am too poor to deal with such crap
           | when traveling (which is in my case only for vacations, no
           | point ruining them by trying to save few bucks). And quite
           | often direct selling is same price as the other sources.
        
             | Ekaros wrote:
             | For vacations it might make sense to buy from travel agency
             | at least in EU. Flight cancelled? Don't have to worry about
             | getting refund on other things either. I had vacation
             | booked when covid hit with all restrictions,
             | flight+hotel(my choice) from agency, full refund without
             | any questions asked.
             | 
             | So either go with agency, pay the premium for them to sort
             | it out if possible. Or then directly to airline. The
             | results might vary, but per location there might be perks
             | with either.
        
             | injidup wrote:
             | I have just run into this with Bravofly. Bought two tickets
             | with Singapore airlines. 4 legs were booked. 14 days before
             | the flight I get an SMS saying Singapore Munich is
             | cancelled.
             | 
             | I ring through to Bravo and ask them to reschedule a the
             | flight as is required under EU law. No problem sir we are
             | into it. I think nothing of it. 5 days pass. No email and
             | my booking has not changed.
             | 
             | I ring again. Why is this taking so long. I was rudely
             | informed to be patient as the "relevant department" ( note
             | this term ) is processing it and it takes some time.
             | 
             | 10 minutes later I get an email from bravo. All my flights
             | are cancelled.no to information is provided about the
             | reschedule.
             | 
             | I find their webchat app and get in touch.
             | 
             | "How can I help you sir?" Starts the conversation which
             | quickly goes downhill. The man informs me that Bravo is not
             | responsible for rescheduling the flight. My contract is
             | with Singapore airlines. "Have a nice day sir"
             | 
             | No no no and no....I argue with him for over an hour.
             | Eventually he agrees to escalate and then hangs up on me.
             | 
             | I try to contact Singapore airlines but they tell me to go
             | back to Bravo. It's their ticket booking.
             | 
             | A day later I call back to Bravo and ask them the status.
             | They just stonewall me. Everything is handled by the
             | "relevant department" and I will get an "email as soon as
             | possible" They refuse to divulge any information.
             | 
             | They start pressuring.me to cancel. They promise me a full
             | refund. I say no I want a reschedule. "Ok sure but you will
             | have to wait for the RELEVANT DEPARTMENT."
             | 
             | This is nine days before I fly. I've waited now 6 days for
             | any actionable information from Bravo. Nothing comes.
             | Eventually I give in..I book a new flight direct with
             | Singapore airlines.
             | 
             | I contact the bravo chat again and ask them to cancel. "Ok
             | sir but we can only refund you the part of the ticket that
             | was cancelled". That is 1/4.
             | 
             | I explode..I post the chat log I'd recorded from yesterday
             | showing that I'd been promised a full refund. "Yes sir ...
             | Of course sir.but there will be a 35 euro handling fee"
             | 
             | No the fuck there won't be I responded and posted the
             | recorded log where I'd explicitly the day before asked
             | about handling fees and were promised there would be none.
             | 
             | I asked when I should expect the refund. "I've notified the
             | RELEVANT DEPARTMENT and they will contact you as soon as
             | possible"
             | 
             | At this point I realise their business strategy. They can
             | offer cheaper flights because when everything goes well the
             | customer gets the flight. If however the airline cancels
             | one flight Bravo can then dick the customer around and
             | attempt to find excuses not to pay up.
             | 
             | I somehow doubt I will get much of the 1000 euros out of
             | them they owe me.
        
               | saiya-jin wrote:
               | That's... a bit extreme even for my experience, but I
               | guess 4 legs and bad luck can do this to you, max I've
               | ever done was 3 (and they lost my big luggage for a week
               | without any info about it but that's another topic).
               | 
               | But yes that's exactly why we buy directly. Compare it to
               | our trip to Bolivia via Miami few years ago. Come to the
               | airport, do you have US ESTA visa? Nope what is that? We
               | dont' travel to US so don't know its policies, just want
               | to fly to Bolivia. Yeah but you go via Miami, its not
               | secured airport unlike most airports anywhere, you need
               | full tourist US ESTA visa. OK we go to airlines helpdesk
               | (British airways) by their recommendation, they do quick
               | ESTA for us based on our passports.
               | 
               | All good, we fly to London, but then flight to Miami is a
               | no-go at the gate, can't find our ESTA code. Some US
               | personnel on the airport in Heathrow found out the person
               | who made ESTA selected incorrect country in our
               | application. 30 minutes to departure. Sorry no-go.
               | Straight on the airport within 20 minutes we got free
               | tickets for same flight next day and other remaining leg
               | and did ESTA correctly ourselves.
               | 
               | I have few similar stories, but they all point to the
               | same conclusion - its not worth the extra risk,
               | especially if there are more legs and multiple airlines
               | are involved. It all looks nice till first cancellation
               | happens. The amount of frustration and stress can easily
               | ruin any mental benefits of (usually quite costly due to
               | 4 of us) vacations.
        
               | notahacker wrote:
               | I can add a bit of clarity to that. When you book
               | connecting flights direct with an airline, or with that
               | airline's codeshare partner, or with an authorised
               | reseller, you've got _one ticket all the way through_
               | which the airline is obliged to fulfil by getting you to
               | your end destination or pay expensive compensation. If
               | they cancel part of the flight, they might have to get
               | you to your end destination on a different route,
               | possibly with a last minute ticket on a different airline
               | (which is very expensive... for _them_ )
               | 
               | When you book with Bravofly and equivalent, they book
               | separate tickets for each leg with no promise of
               | connection. That's how they get the cheapest possible
               | fares. In the event of a cancellation of one of the
               | flights the airline is obliged to offer you a rescheduled
               | ticket between two destinations, but has no obligation to
               | ensure the passenger gets from the start point to the end
               | point of the original itinerary. So none of the
               | alternative tickets SIA was obliged to offer Bravofly
               | were any use to you. Bravofly don't have any obligation
               | to reroute you either and even if they cared about
               | goodwill I doubt their margins are big enough for them to
               | volunteer alternative flights at their own expense.
               | 
               | Or put another way, I booked a cheap flight back to
               | London via Zurich on their airBerlin's website. Couple in
               | front of me booked the same route via Bravofly (as two
               | separate tickets) for about PS5 less. When airBerlin
               | decided to cancel the flight to Zurich without telling
               | some of their passengers until they arrived at the
               | airport I got back to London around when I'd originally
               | expected at airBerlin's expense on a better airline on a
               | different route. The other couple got told they could
               | have a flight to Zurich later that day if they still
               | wanted it, but they'd miss the other flight back to
               | London without compensation regardless. Or they could
               | ring Bravofly and see if they'd help...
        
               | injidup wrote:
               | I'm not sure this is the case as I actually have a valid
               | SIA booking number and single SIA ticket number. I can
               | verify this on the SIA android app.
        
               | sokoloff wrote:
               | Long before the point you're at, I'd have let my credit
               | card company know to charge back that transaction and the
               | details why. (I do give companies one solid effort to
               | correct things on their end.)
        
               | injidup wrote:
               | I've submitted all that information today to the credit
               | card company along with the chat logs.
        
             | nathancahill wrote:
             | Absolutely. I search for flight legs on ITA Matrix and then
             | book the specific itinerary by calling in with the flight
             | code. Generally get the exact flights, schedule, class,
             | seats etc. ExpertFlyer is worth it's weight in gold.
        
             | atyppo wrote:
             | Yes, this is generally true, but not always (although this
             | is definitely an outlier). JFK-SCL was $1200 cash through
             | the airline or $287 through a travel agent. Guess which I
             | chose?
        
         | mfringel wrote:
         | A key differentiator is that airline seats are a perishable
         | good.
         | 
         | That is, an empty seat has value until the plane takes off, at
         | which point the value goes to zero. On the flip side, a
         | traveler has an opportunity to _be_ in that seat until the
         | plane takes off, at which point its value is zero. People tend
         | to understand that those values continuously vary with time,
         | and so the price will vary with time.
         | 
         | To contrast, books (in specific) and consumer durables (in
         | general) are not perishable goods. The notable exceptions tend
         | to be time-based; try getting chocolates in the heart-shaped
         | box right before Valentine's Day in the US... and then the day
         | after. Since the value of the book doesn't continuously vary
         | with time over the short-run, people don't expect that the
         | price will vary.
        
           | ccalloway wrote:
           | Tickets for the theater and for concerts are also generally
           | sold for considerably below the price that the market will
           | bear, with enormous effort put into ineffectively preventing
           | resale, despite the tickets being 'perishable' in your sense.
        
             | colinmhayes wrote:
             | Tickets generally are dynamically priced. If a ticket has
             | high demand it will instantly sell out and be put up for
             | auction on resale sites.
        
               | ccalloway wrote:
               | By this definition everything that can be resold is
               | dynamically priced.
               | 
               | The GP was trying to explain why airline tickets, but not
               | consumer goods, are dynamically priced when sold _by the
               | original vendors_.
        
               | verall wrote:
               | Other comments are also explaining; but in the modern day
               | concert tickets _are_ dynamically priced, with stubhub
               | (owned by) and ticketmaster set up to be the "bad guy".
               | 
               | Popular concerts sell out very fast and are immediately
               | being sold on stubhub. Not all of these tickets sold on
               | stubhub are actual resales by consumers or scalpers, but
               | are typically mass purchases negotiated by ticketmaster
               | ahead of time.
               | 
               | Superfans glued to artist social media will get special
               | promo codes which unlock tickets that are not otherwise
               | available. This makes sense because they are the most
               | likely to spend the difference on merch.
        
               | colinmhayes wrote:
               | Most goods that can be dynamically priced are dynamically
               | priced. The thing is that most goods are not supply
               | constrained. When there is competition and an unlimited
               | supply people will just pretend they have a lower
               | willingness to pay so dynamic pricing doesn't really
               | work.
        
               | ccalloway wrote:
               | This does explain why Playstations are not dynamically
               | priced, but it fails to explain why concert tickets are
               | not dynamically priced.
        
               | ghaff wrote:
               | As I recall from my economics, one of the usual theories
               | is that bands/venues/sports events/service stations in
               | remote locations/etc. don't in the main want to gain the
               | reputation for being the a*holes who will rip you off
               | given the slightest opportunity.
               | 
               | It's at least possibly bad for long-tern business. And in
               | the case of small businesses, the owners may just not
               | want to be that person.
               | 
               | For events, "list prices" are often gotten around by (in
               | addition to ticket brokers being a thing) by various
               | types of VIP seating, extras, and so forth which raise
               | prices to closer to market levels while leaving normal
               | ticket list prices--assuming you can get one.
        
               | [deleted]
        
               | kingbirdy wrote:
               | Concert tickets _are_ dynamically priced, at least for
               | some events. See Ticketmaster's "Official Platinum"[0]
               | which is a dynamic pricing system for the best seats, I
               | imagine other companies have something similar.
               | 
               | [0]: https://help.ticketmaster.com/s/article/What-are-
               | Official-Pl...
        
         | mdavis6890 wrote:
         | I think the difference in the Amazon example is that it's about
         | you as an individual, rather than general market circumstances.
         | 
         | I think most of us are okay paying a surge rate to Uber when
         | it's raining at the ballpark (market circumstances), but not
         | just because you are on the way to the hospital (personal
         | circumstances).
        
           | eganp wrote:
           | Never thought of this distinction before! Thanks for making
           | this distinction.
           | 
           | This seems to hold in other contexts. People tend to tolerate
           | price discrimination at an aggregate level (e.g.
           | senior/student discounts) but loathe individual-level price
           | discrimination (e.g. college tuition). I wonder if it's the
           | unfairness or uncertainty
        
         | atyppo wrote:
         | This already happens on an extent on Delta's website. I've had
         | it happen multiple times where I receive a higher upgrade offer
         | price than others traveling with me on a separate reservation.
         | Other times where even the price of the ticket is different,
         | despite vehement denial from someone in Ed Bastian's office.
         | Hence I frequently use incognito and change my VPN's location
         | to search and get cheapest mileage-based offers since this
         | isn't searchable on Google Flights. Quite scummy to think
         | they're offering higher prices to their more loyal customers (I
         | travel about 50k miles/yr on Delta). Makes me want to become an
         | airline free agent since I'm in NYC and can get direct flights
         | pretty much anywhere.
        
       | tandr wrote:
       | Yeah... Problem is they control supply as well. I would agree
       | with the conclusion only if I would fly business destinations
       | only. As it stands right now, I have to buy tickets to Mexico 6-8
       | months in advance, with no right to cancel them, even if life has
       | other plans all of a sudden.
        
         | mdavis6890 wrote:
         | Someone has to take the risk that life happens. You can take
         | that risk (non-refundable) or you can pay the airline a higher
         | price to take that risk (refundable).
        
           | mirchiseth wrote:
           | Thinking in terms of risk and who bears it is the right way
           | to think. Thanks for bringing this up.
        
           | blunte wrote:
           | But is the extra cost you pay (for that risk) fair relative
           | to the risk of revenue loss for the airlines? I highly doubt
           | that.
           | 
           | This is an industry that has a history of ever-increasing
           | executive pay rates with gradual reductions in service
           | quality, gradual increases in incidental fees, frequent
           | bankruptcies, and occasional governmental bail-outs.
        
             | ccalloway wrote:
             | It bears no relation to the risk of revenue loss for the
             | airline. It is based on demand. An airline runs hundreds of
             | flights a day, and it knows that a certain percentage are
             | going to be less than full. It tries to optimize as best it
             | can. You on the other hand are going to be seriously
             | annoyed if you have to change your plans and you lose
             | hundreds of dollars, maybe a significant proportion of the
             | money you have for your trip. They are going to charge you
             | based on the price you're willing to pay for peace of mind,
             | far lower than the cost to them. After all, most people do
             | use the plane tickets they have booked.
             | 
             | The solution is to self-insure by having $1000, or
             | whatever, ready for if you need it for increased travel
             | costs or other emergencies. And try to avoid feeling either
             | anger or regret if you have to change your plans. If you
             | don't have a spare few hundred bucks then this method isn't
             | available to you.
        
               | mirchiseth wrote:
               | Risk and insurance go hand in hand. +1 on self-insurance
               | says the guy who is buying 22/23 season passes for
               | skiing.
        
       ___________________________________________________________________
       (page generated 2022-03-25 23:01 UTC)