[HN Gopher] Crows know what they know and can ponder the content...
___________________________________________________________________
Crows know what they know and can ponder the content of their own
minds
Author : SubiculumCode
Score : 284 points
Date : 2022-03-24 16:23 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.statnews.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.statnews.com)
| krono wrote:
| Not a crow, but I have a parot companion. If you're still scared
| of printers someday taking over, you should really stay away from
| birbs.
| _dain_ wrote:
| >To test whether crows know and can analyze the contents of their
| brains, neurobiologist Andreas Nieder of the University of
| Tubingen in Germany trained two birds to peck a red or a blue
| target on a panel, depending whether they saw a faint light.
| Nieder kept varying the "rule," with the birds told which color
| meant what -- red = saw it, or blue = saw it -- only after the
| flash. That required the crows, Glenn and Ozzy, to keep
| monitoring their brains; they had a second or two to figure out
| what they had seen and tell Nieder by choosing the corresponding
| target.
|
| ... I don't actually understand what this means. Am I dumb or is
| this just badly written? Can someone explain? What is Nieder
| actually doing here, and how does it test whether the crows are
| introspecting? How are they "told" which color meant what?
| netsharc wrote:
| It's strangely summarized, but the full text (linked from
| https://www.researchgate.net/publication/344393003_A_neural_...
| ) has more details.
|
| If there was a faint light, and the red target appears, the
| birds were taught (how?) to peck it. If there was light and a
| blue target appears, don't peck it. If there was no light, and
| the blue target appears, peck it, and if the target is red,
| don't peck it.
|
| So peck a red target = "I saw a light", peck a blue target = "I
| didn't see a light". If the opposite color target appears to
| what you need to peck, don't peck it.
|
| Or: Target is red, did I see a light? If yes, peck it. Target
| is blue. Was there a light? If there wasn't, peck it.
|
| I didn't continue reading the paper, but I guess the
| researchers concluded since they crows could answer the "Did I
| see a light?" question correctly most (i.e. statistically
| significant amount) of the times, it shows they can ponder the
| contents of their brains.
| _dain_ wrote:
| So how does this mean they can "ponder the contents of their
| own brains"? I'm pretty sure you could train even a very
| stupid creature to perform this task.
| Ajedi32 wrote:
| Isn't that effectively just a simple short term memory test?
| How does that tell us anything about whether crows can
| "ponder the contents of their minds"?
| ShamelessC wrote:
| I don't know but I'm utterly amazed at the sheer number of
| anecdata comments here all completely ignoring the title's
| premise which is worded in a way that makes you think "what
| did you do, simulate a bird brain from scratch?"
|
| So, thanks for being the only sane comment.
| silasdavis wrote:
| I don't follow the experimental conclusion here. It seems like a
| demonstration of memory. What am I missing?
| nickelpro wrote:
| Concur. Jumping from "a collection of sensory neurons remained
| active after a sensory experience" to "Crows have subjective
| experience and 'ponder' the contents of their own minds" is an
| editorial leap. The latter likely isn't even provable in a
| scientific way.
|
| If I said a fly wheel keeps spinning after being in contact
| with an outside force, you would never characterize it as "fly
| wheel acts of its own accord following demonstration".
| lacker wrote:
| There is often a lot of cawing in my backyard when I refill the
| bird feeder, or when the neighborhood cat comes by. Clearly the
| crows are communicating useful information in their social group.
| Too bad I can't speak crow and I don't know how much detail there
| is in crow language.
| costcofries wrote:
| But do they know that they don't know!
| RajT88 wrote:
| The wild thing about this article is less the article content,
| and more the realization that I know adult humans less self aware
| than what is described in corvids.
| [deleted]
| edgyquant wrote:
| I really hate this mind set. Every single human being that ever
| lived is a ridiculously intelligent entity. It isn't funny or
| cute to pretend otherwise and just because some people dedicate
| that intelligence to things you or I don't agree with, or just
| because they don't care about the same things as us, doesn't
| make them less self aware than any other person.
| Jach wrote:
| I've gone back and forth on my feelings for the mindset. My
| current feelings just encompass the differences so it's not
| really a like or hate anymore either way. Yes, the human
| species is very intelligent and in a uniquely general way on
| this planet, the difference between a village idiot and
| Einstein is quite small compared to the difference between a
| village idiot and any member of any other species. Scenarios
| like Idiocracy are just laughably implausible because while
| evolution can sometimes work fast for little changes which
| can make a difference against big selection pressures, it's
| generally very slow (we have math to say how slow!), and it
| seems plausible that what makes us uniquely generally
| intelligent took evolution a long time to produce, has many
| interdependent and complicated things, and would take
| evolution a long time to unmake. I suspect we as a species
| would sooner go extinct for one reason or another before we
| suffered enough mutations that reached fixation and caused a
| notable decline in our capability of general intelligence.
|
| On the other hand, small scale situations similar to what's
| depicted in fun-fiction like Idiocracy or other things keep
| happening, and the idea that reality is stranger and crazier
| than fiction holds true. I've joked that the 2020s are going
| to be the dumbest decade, and will require the dumbest
| people. Holding up well so far. Furthermore, even if we
| acknowledge that humans are intelligent, period, there is
| still great variation within humans. There is variation on
| every trait we can measure, self-awareness should be no
| different, the presumption that no one is more or less self
| aware than any other person defies reason. Apart from that,
| just observing people's behavior in a casual way I think it
| obvious that people vary quite a bit when it comes to self-
| awareness, both in general every day lives (which I can
| notice varies in myself) or in specific focused tests. It
| doesn't get better when you switch from casual observation
| and conversation to more detailed study, psychology and
| psychotherapy are full of strange and fascinating data (and
| not just of fundamentally damaged brains) which I think a
| model that assumes equal capacities in self-awareness would
| be hard-pressed to explain.
| clankyclanker wrote:
| > ridiculously intelligent entity
|
| Intelligence is a far-cry from self-awareness. I once knew
| someone who would regularly (daily, for years), in
| conversation, cut other people off like they weren't even
| there to completely change the subject to their own
| preference. I once called them out on it and tried to finish
| my original point to the rest of the table. They yelled at me
| and demanded an apology that I would dare cut them off like
| that, that I would dare try to finish my own point.
|
| I have several similar stories, but the rest are far too
| specific for the open internet.
|
| Some people just pay themselves no mind.
| kwhitefoot wrote:
| Read some of Peter Watts SF to see that there can be a
| distinction between self awareness, consciousness, and
| intelligence.
| snek_case wrote:
| Disagree. Some people are less self-aware than others. It's
| not a matter of opinions or what you believe in, it's a
| matter of how much you are aware of your own cognition.
|
| There are many people out there who seem to lack the ability
| to analyze the consequences of their behavior, or to admit
| that they were ever wrong. There are also people who seem to
| be very bad at understanding what are their motivations for
| doing certain things. Not being able to look back at your own
| behavior and your own mistakes makes it nearly impossible for
| these people to grow.
|
| I won't get into the argument as to whether these differences
| in self-awareness are biological in origin or due to nurture.
| It's probably some of both. Either way, even though this
| metric is multidimensional and hard to quantify, some people
| are definitely less self-aware than others. Just like some
| people are less physically fit than others.
| edgyquant wrote:
| You seem to think these people stupid instead of stubborn
| humans who don't care about what your definition of "self
| aware" is. I'm sure these people think your way of thinking
| is odd as well.
| snek_case wrote:
| I think it's similar to short term reward vs delayed
| gratification (see the marshmallow experiment[0]). By
| refusing to admit you've ever made mistakes, you can
| protect your ego in the short term. However, you're also
| alienating people and preventing learning from taking
| place. That has a long-term cost in terms of missed or
| lost opportunities.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_marshmallow_ex
| perimen...
| ifyoubuildit wrote:
| How do you distinguish between the case where these people
| are actually less self aware vs being roughly just as self
| aware but having different values from your own? In other
| words, they are aware of much of what everyone around them
| is aware, they just act on it differently?
|
| In any case, the vast majority of healthy humans are
| probably more self aware than the vast majority of healthy
| crows, no?
| jotm wrote:
| It is entirely possible to simply ignore that intelligence.
| And why wouldn't you, if you're safe and fed? Being stupid is
| easier - very much in line with evolution, too.
|
| It's hard not to notice that many people are... dumb, but
| content or happy. They don't second guess, they don't fret,
| they don't think much.
|
| I really wish I could be like that.
| edgyquant wrote:
| Ignoring that intelligence when you don't need it is
| actually a very intelligent decision imo. That makes these
| folks smarter than I am.
| Jach wrote:
| Why wouldn't you? Smarter people are generally happier than
| others too when the question is researched.
|
| I suppose it's possible to mistake low neuroticism for
| stupidity. And if you don't talk to dumb people (pick an IQ
| range below 100) very often you might not know their
| worries and concerns, especially if they're not overt about
| them as is fashionable for Lisa Simpson-esque individuals.
|
| Still bad news on adjusting your base intelligence (apart
| from drastically down through damage), I don't know about
| adjusting self-awareness though I suspect it's a bit more
| mutable in good and bad ways, but at least your desire to
| feel happier or more content more often is a possible state
| for you to achieve if you work at it. Some people will
| recommend therapy (surprised nobody has internet-diagnosed
| you with depression already), or meditation, or drugs
| (prescription or party), or whatever (I like the idea and
| research of gratitude journals
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratitude_journal but don't
| keep one), I don't want to recommend anything, just point
| out that personality and outlook is more mutable than
| something like base intelligence, which is good news for
| your melancholy should you wish to attempt change.
| z3c0 wrote:
| You're not alone in this. I find it a very tired, unoriginal
| perspective to keep asserting how dumb other people are. At
| the end of the day, the simplest human brains are still a
| marvel of science and computational complexity. The fact that
| it so often gets used for "dumb" things only impresses me
| more.
|
| Unfortunately, a lot of people boost their worth by degrading
| others, so to give that credit to those that they look down
| on would cause them a certain degree of cognitive dissonance.
| elliekelly wrote:
| This comment is a bit ironic. Particularly your last
| sentence.
| z3c0 wrote:
| Only if you assume that I look down on those I'm speaking
| of. I don't. It's an entirely human thing to do, and
| something most people will find themselves doing at some
| point.
| geocrasher wrote:
| I first read this as "Cows" and was reminded of "Cow Tools"
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_Tools
| Melatonic wrote:
| If you want to befriend your local crows try buying a crow call -
| they will all look at you funny but you definitely get their
| attention. Supposedly they also like many types of nuts
| bmitc wrote:
| It continues to surprise me that humans are surprised at other
| animals having deep intelligence and emotions and thoughts. As if
| the fact that animals don't speak English or whatever else human
| language is somehow a negative reflection upon them.
| jodrellblank wrote:
| "As if they are inferior because they don't speak English" is a
| pretty cheap shot; cows eat grass, what reason do they have for
| deep intelligence and thoughts, why would you expect a-priori
| that they must have such? It's sometimes suggested that human
| intelligence rose quite quickly from trying to outwit other
| humans; do cows try to outwit each other and slaughter other
| cow tribes to take control of their fields?
|
| Another point is, other animals do dumb things - like videos of
| ducks walking over drains and the ducklings fall down the
| drain, or creature stuck in plastic sheet until it dies. Or
| creature does nothing while humans approach, kill, and eat it.
| It's hard to see examples like that and think "deep
| intelligence".
|
| Emotions, yes - a lot of fear, pain, excitement, skittishness,
| visible in a lot of animal behviours. But examples of planning
| ahead, cooperation, tool using, they're so rare they make
| headlines like this article when observed.
| [deleted]
| TallonRain wrote:
| Same here. As someone who has spent his life around many
| animals, either as pets or in the wild or other contexts, it's
| very plain that humans are surrounded by respectably sentient
| creatures. It always floors me whenever people are shocked at
| the complex thoughts, emotions, behavior and planning
| capabilities of non-human animals. It really just seems
| fundamentally obvious if you bother to interact with other
| creatures long enough. Heck, I've run into way too many people
| who refuse to even acknowledge that we humans are animals as
| well and I feel this innate arrogance persists to our
| detriment.
| omegaworks wrote:
| It really shouldn't surprise you given the amount of humans
| that treat _other humans_ like they lack deep intelligence,
| emotions and thoughts if they don 't speak English.
| tigen wrote:
| Well, 1 out of 2 people has below-average intelligence. And the
| comments you see online vastly amplify the opinions of a small
| few.
|
| Heck, not long ago you'd find a lot of humans saying this about
| other humans.
| paskozdilar wrote:
| Agreed. Animals have their own understanding of the world,
| sometimes a lot more perceptive than ours.
| kyaghmour wrote:
| When I was younger, I read many books by Henri Laborit
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Laborit) -- his work is
| predominantly in French. As a surgeon and neurobiologist, he
| wrote a lot about the biology of behaviour. I can't find the
| interview anymore, but during an interview (also in French)
| with a Canadian journalist he quipped this: "L'homme est un
| animal, le probleme c'est qu'il parle." (roughly: "Man is an
| animal, the problem is that he uses language.") And, so, I
| agree with the essence of your position. But maybe the problem
| isn't that humans are surprised that other animals
| feeling/thinking. Rather the problem might be that humans think
| they actually aren't animals to begin with.
| lamontcg wrote:
| I had a crow that was on my back porch last year trying to tell
| me something, but I don't think I was clever enough to know what
| it was trying to say.
|
| I could walk out on the porch and get within a foot or two of it
| without it flying away.
|
| I hadn't been feeding them or anything.
|
| I put out some water and ran the garden hose a bit and put out a
| bit of bread thinking that food or water was probably what it was
| looking for (it was during some very hot days in Seattle). It
| didn't really act all that interested in what I did though.
| fleddr wrote:
| Here in the Netherlands there was the case of two corvids trying
| to harass a small owl so that they could use its nesting hole.
|
| This in itself shows team work. They failed to get rid of the owl
| in time before the breeding season.
|
| Next season they tried again. This time, together they stuffed
| the nest hole with so much stuff that the owl couldn't get in
| anymore. The owl would try to clear it but soon gave up as it was
| two working against one. With the owl permanently gone, they
| cleared the hole and seized it.
|
| Isn't that stunning? This demonstrates memory as the previously
| failing tactic was not repeated. The idea of stuffing a nest
| surely isn't intuition or a skill learned from parents, it's a
| spontaneously formed idea for a highly specific problem.
|
| They also have very complex social behavior where males exchange
| favors. Every bird knows of every other bird they commonly
| interact with whether they are owed or in debt. So that means
| they have a currency.
|
| We should lose our arrogance and look at wildlife with new eyes
| and with new respect. And not just for wildlife superstars like
| crows or dolphins, do it across the board. Case in point,
| earthworms drag leaves into their underground lair and feed on
| them. When you give it the wrong type of leaf, it will reject it.
| When you give it the right type of leaf, yet wrongly oriented, it
| will turn it around. We're talking about a creature with a
| handful of neurons, figuratively speaking. It's one of the most
| stupid life forms and it can do that.
| ComputerCat wrote:
| Wow, that's fascinating research! I've always found crows so
| majestic, perhaps it's because they were pondering.
| khaledh wrote:
| I know this isn't scientific, but for those who may entertain the
| idea of a Creator, there's a mention of crow behaviour in the
| Quran, where it describes the story of Abel and Cain (sons of
| Adam and Eve), and how after Cain killed his brother, God sent a
| crow to teach him about burial: "Then Allah
| sent a crow searching in the ground to show him how to hide the
| disgrace of his brother. He said, "O woe to me! Have I failed to
| be like this crow and hide the body of my brother?" And he became
| of the regretful." (5:31)
| 2000UltraDeluxe wrote:
| European magpies have been documented to hold wakes for fallen
| flock members. It's not impossible crows have similar bit
| undocumented ceremonies. They definitely have a rudimentary
| culture.
| drcongo wrote:
| Magpies are usually bastards, however, about a year ago a cat
| got run over in the street near my house and the only reason
| anyone knew to go to its aid was because a group of magpies
| stood around it in a circle shouting until someone came.
| Obviously I could be anthropomorphising this in the nicest
| possible way, the alternative is that they were taunting it
| Nelson Muntz style.
| openfuture wrote:
| I once heard a theory that the story of cain and abel is about
| the agriculturalists killing the nomadic people by taking their
| lands ("killing their brother") idk how you'd think of the crow
| part in that interpretation but something to think about.
| Overtonwindow wrote:
| To test whether crows know and can analyze the contents of their
| brains...trained two birds to peck a red or a blue target on a
| panel, depending whether they saw a faint light."
|
| "[Researcher] Nieder kept varying the "rule," with the birds told
| which color meant what -- red = saw it, or blue = saw it -- only
| after the flash. That required the crows, Glenn and Ozzy, to keep
| monitoring their brains; they had a second or two to figure out
| what they had seen and tell Nieder by choosing the corresponding
| target.
|
| While the crows were solving these tasks, the researchers were
| tracking the activity of hundreds of their neurons. (Crows'
| brains have 1.5 billion neurons, as many as some monkey species.)
|
| "When the crows reported having seen a faint light, sensory
| neurons were active between the flash and the birds pecking the
| color that meant, yes, I saw that. If the crows did not perceive
| the very same faint stimulus, the nerve cells remained silent,
| and the bird pecked, no, I didn't see anything. Ozzy and Glenn's
| brain activity systematically changed depending on whether or not
| they had perceived the dim flash.
|
| "During the delay, many neurons responded according to the crows'
| impending report, rather than to the brightness of the light...
| The birds were aware of what they subjectively perceived, flash
| or no flash, correctly reporting what their sensory neurons
| recorded..."
| whatrocks wrote:
| This is only inspirationally relevant, but a few weeks ago, I saw
| a crow (or a raven, never quite sure) holding a stick, floating
| without moving, on top of Twin Peaks in SF, like it was waiting
| to give a wand to a wizard. When I got home, I wrote this weird
| little story about it:
| https://f52.charlieharrington.com/stories/a-great-unkindness...
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| Hey that was fun! I was pleasantly surprised to see the audio
| option as I'm too sleepy to read right now.
|
| Reminds me of a short story I wrote which is a transcription of
| a vivid dream I had: http://www.tlalexander.com/spooks/
| whatrocks wrote:
| Great story! I love the image of the huge airships looming
| over the city. A lot of my stories in my "Fahrenheit 52"
| project have been extended versions of dreams. Whenever I
| have a particularly weird one, I try to tap it out quickly on
| my phone, even if it's the middle of the night.
| zehauser wrote:
| Very weird! I love it. Although I worry I won't be able to look
| at Karl the Fog without a little bit of suspicion, now. :)
| DiggyJohnson wrote:
| Thanks for sharing. I love that you chose to publish this, for
| little external reason, I imagine. And just one week later,
| here we are: good stuff.
| whatrocks wrote:
| Thank you! I'm doing it as a little writing project for the
| year, one short story every week, just to get better at
| writing, and also to expunge all these probably dumb story
| ideas from my head (with the hope that there's now room for
| better ones).
| jbattle wrote:
| In the 'Once and Future King', the boy who will be King Arthur
| looses an arrow into the air, just for the joy of it. A crow
| comes out of nowhere and grabs the arrow. Art's foster brother
| believes the crow was actually a witch (Morgan le Fay?).
|
| I'm just saying - keep an eye out for witches ;)
| "Just as [the arrow] had spent its force, just as its ambition
| had been dimmed by destiny and it was preparing to faint, to
| turn over, to pour back into the bosom of its mother earth, a
| portent happened. A gore-crow came flapping wearily before the
| approaching night. It came, it did not waver, it took the
| arrow. It flew away, heavy and hoisting, with the arrow in its
| beak."
| whatrocks wrote:
| I love this book so much, thanks for reminding me of this
| part! One of my favorite quotes ever comes from Merlin in
| this book:
|
| > The best thing for being sad is to learn something. That's
| the only thing that never fails. You may grow old and
| trembling in your anatomies, you may lie awake at night
| listening to the disorder of your veins, you may miss your
| only love, you may see the world about you devastated by evil
| lunatics, or know your honour trampled in the sewers of baser
| minds. There is only one thing for it then -- to learn. Learn
| why the world wags and what wags it. That is the only thing
| which the mind can never exhaust, never alienate, never be
| tortured by, never fear or distrust, and never dream of
| regretting. Learning is the only thing for you. Look what a
| lot of things there are to learn.
| ffreire wrote:
| > I saw a crow (or a raven, never quite sure)
|
| Assuming you mean it's difficult to tell the difference, as
| opposed to just in this case:
|
| Telling them apart is fairly straightforward! Crows are
| smaller, have a flatter tail, and typically flap quite a bit
| during flight. Ravens, by comparison, are much larger in size,
| have a diamond-shaped tail that moves quite a bit during
| flight, and typically glide during flight.
|
| Love the whole family of corvids :D as well as your story!
| whimsicalism wrote:
| I used to feel like I could always tell them apart, but the
| crows (I think?) in SF are very large
| lacker wrote:
| I think the Northern California crows are larger than their
| east coast counterparts, so I agree, it is harder to tell
| them apart by size here. Ravens are larger still, though.
| If you see one in San Francisco, it's probably a crow.
| Occasionally you get a raven in Oakland but those are
| usually crows as well. If you get out to Mount Diablo
| you'll see both crows and ravens out there.
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| > _Telling them apart is fairly straightforward!_
|
| I would like to point out that your description of how
| straightforward it is to tell them apart very humorously
| belies how it is not at all straightforward because all of
| your proposed evaluations are implicitly relative to
| something not seen.
|
| > _Crows are smaller, have a flatter tail, and typically...
| Ravens, by comparison..._
|
| If you see one bird, is that bird smaller or larger? Is its
| tail more flat or less? Smaller than what? Flatter than what?
| Flappier than what? Without seeing both, a lay individual
| can't easily evaluate "by comparison".
| hetspookjee wrote:
| If you think woah that is one huge crow, than it's probably
| a raven I find the easiest tell. Also the sound is a bit
| off and on the higher end I believe. And also their beak is
| more curved but that's often hard to spot and not too
| reliable
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| You're doing it too. "bigger", "more curved", "higher
| sound". All of those are comparative. None of them help
| you know a raven or a crow except in relation to some
| idealized specimen of the other, which one likely doesn't
| have in front of them.
| yakak wrote:
| I can tell the crows and ravens apart in my region but I have
| to wonder how relativistic comparisons are. From what I've
| seen of hooded crows, I would be more inclined to categorize
| them as ravens, but there are probably larger ravens in their
| regions.
| Broken_Hippo wrote:
| I live in an area with hooded crows and ravens. The ravens
| are a bit larger, but they aren't massively larger.
|
| On the other hand, as long as there is enough light, you
| can always tell them apart because the hooded crows have a
| lot of grey so long as they are fully grown (young hooded
| crows are darker than adults)
| 8bitsrule wrote:
| I grew up in a forestland environment. Most of the adult
| ravens I saw along the roadside out-of-town (usually not
| bothered by cars driving by) were about the size of a
| chicken. Crows, as a rule ... were a lot smaller.
| thinkingemote wrote:
| "if you think its a raven, its a crow, and if you think its a
| crow its a raven" so goes the classic quote.
|
| one recent quote i heard on the bus: "ravens are near humans,
| crows are in the country"
| bbarnett wrote:
| Absolutely the opposite, loads of crows in the city, few
| ravens if any.
|
| Above holds true in Western US and Eastern Canada at least.
| Broken_Hippo wrote:
| In my area, I see crows all the time, sitting on power
| lines and messing with posters on the street and so on.
| These are hooded crows and easy to distinguish from ravens.
| I see ravens as well, but not quite as often - though one
| of my local grocery stores has a small flock (murder!) of
| ravens that likes to forage in the parking lot. And to be
| fair, I live in a decently sized city of around 180,000.
| irrational wrote:
| > Ravens, by comparison, are much larger in size
|
| The problem is, they are rarely sitting next to each other so
| I can tell which one is larger.
| lacker wrote:
| Personally, when I see crows or ravens flying I often can't
| see their tail and I often can't quite tell how large they
| are. I find it easier to distinguish their call, a crow
| sounds like "caw" and a raven sounds like "gronk".
| dontbeevil1992 wrote:
| very cool! some similar themes to LotR. Did you intentionally
| make the crows names use mainly phonemes from the word "crow"?
| That's a cool technique
| whatrocks wrote:
| > Did you intentionally make the crows names use mainly
| phonemes from the word "crow"? That's a cool technique
|
| Not consciously! But they sounded crow-like to me. Like they
| could be onomatopeias for words that crows could
| theoretically speak/croak to each other.
| lifeisstillgood wrote:
| Humans have achieved not just intelligence but co-operation.
|
| we are "herd" enough that the benefits of learning from others
| overcomes the need to be smart enough to work it out yourself.
|
| But individualistic enough that we won't follow the herd all the
| time (we might want to improve that given the success of religion
| and dictators).
|
| But what I am trying to say is that intelligence is a necessary
| but not sufficbet condition. We also need ... politics ... for
| want of a better word.
|
| Our brains seem to be wired as levels of co-operating systems
| coming to collective decisions - and that is a pretty good way to
| describe politics and society.
|
| Human species is less a collection of organisms feeding and dying
| and more a distributed brain, trying to wake up.
|
| Now that each node has a pocket sized way to communicate with
| each other node, I wonder what the conditions for consciousness
| really are?
| [deleted]
| winnit wrote:
| Have you read Swarm by Norman Spinrad? It's a short-story which
| illustrates some of the points you have made by bringing an
| alien species that are less individually intelligent but more
| hive-oriented than human beings into the mix.
| waqf wrote:
| Also "Web" by John Wyndham.
| bar_de wrote:
| Also the book "The Invincible" by Stanislaw Lem tells a story
| about distributed intelligent lifeforms. Really nice as they
| are described in a very unique un-anthropocentric way, i.e.
| their rationality is hardly understandable by the space
| faring humans encountering them.
| rmnull wrote:
| i can't seem to find the book by that title by that author. I
| did find a book by that title but its 800 something pages
| long and don't think its the title you referred to. do you
| mind providing a link?
| StingyJelly wrote:
| I've red a short story that matches the description and the
| name. Took a while to remember but it was in A Science
| Fiction Omnibus [0], apparently it's by Bruce Sterling so
| could be a different story.
|
| <https://openlibrary.org/works/OL15192261W/A_Science_Fictio
| n_...>
| Animats wrote:
| Crows have been seen using traffic to crack nuts. Including using
| a crosswalk to get a chance to retrieve the cracked nuts.[1]
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGPGknpq3e0
| klenwell wrote:
| A favorite crow story from r/legaladvice:
|
| _[oregon] I accidentally created an army of crow body guards.
| Am I liable if my murder attempts murder? UPDATE: The crows
| saved a life_
|
| https://old.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/lobhtj/oregon_...
|
| I also read a comment online somewhere (maybe here?) recently
| where someone talked about a crow they met years ago while in
| college at the local Taco Bell who would exchange nickels for
| tacos. I believe they said that crow would even croak "TACO"
| when it presented the nickel.
|
| Now I wish I would have bookmarked that one.
|
| [UPDATE] I tracked down the Taco Bell story:
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/572ajt/whats_the...
|
| This comment is 5 years old so I think I read a copypasta
| version of this. Or maybe author reposted it somewhere more
| recently. Anyway, great story.
| e40 wrote:
| I've been feeding the crows around my house since near the
| beginning of the pandemic. Since we were home we started
| noticing them. In fact, there are several bird types. Blue
| Jays and others I don't even know the type.
|
| Unfortunately, our neighbors got angry because the crows
| would wait for feeding times and sit on the power lines and
| ... crap on their cars. And the squirrels grab the peanuts
| and hide them and once I was coming back from a walk and the
| neighbor walked up to me and said "hold out your hand" and
| then dropped a peanut shell in my hand. Really frustrating,
| because it's not like there are a lot of them. Usually they
| fly away with them and leave them elsewhere.
|
| Two stories related to this:
|
| 1. I was talking with a neighbor for a good while. We were
| talking and heard a sound like metal dropping near me. I said
| "did you hear that, too?" ... I looked around and there was a
| bottle cap a few feet away and a crow above it on the power
| line. They were impatient and wanted their peanuts.
|
| 2. I was walking a few blocks away from my house and an empty
| peanut shell dropped right in front of me. Looked up and a
| crow on the power line.
|
| Right now a couple of crows are building a next. One of them
| looks much bigger than normal and seems to fly slowly.
| Crowlets incoming??
| sph wrote:
| There's also the 4chan classic of a guy starting a turf war
| between crows: https://www.reddit.com/r/greentext/comments/5m
| i9nu/anon_star...
| amelius wrote:
| Did he tag the crows? Otherwise, how was he sure that some
| of the tree crows didn't convert to grass grows?
| robbedpeter wrote:
| Or sledding, using discarded plastic lids, for the sheer fun.
| I've seen young raven fledglings flinging pinecones at
| eachother, and there's a sense of play and joy in what they do.
|
| Good for them, the more conscious creatures we share the
| universe with, the better. Well, the planet, anyway. While
| we're nominally in charge. If we can avoid screwing everything
| up too badly.
|
| Actually, hell, can the ravens take over? We seem to be bodging
| things up just a bit.
| bee_rider wrote:
| I've seen the sledding crow clip. It is funny to think about.
| For a human, part of the fun of sledding is the sort of
| controlled falling/almost flight-like experience. I guess
| that's old hat for a crow, so I guess they must see it from
| the other side somehow.
| hunterb123 wrote:
| Walking is controlled falling
| reducesuffering wrote:
| Whereas the nut cracking is cool for the intelligence shown
| towards survival, the one that truly astounds me is
| intelligence for the sake of having fun. Crow skiing:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WupH8oyrAo
| Razengan wrote:
| > _the one that truly astounds me is intelligence for the
| sake of having fun. Crow skiing_
|
| Don't worry human chauvinism will find a "practical" reason
| to break that down to too.
| cpeterso wrote:
| Similarly, I was impressed/frightened to learn that some hawks
| in Australia purposely start wildfires to flush out prey (by
| taking burning sticks from one wildfire to start others).
|
| https://wildlife.org/australian-firehawks-use-fire-to-catch-...
| NoGravitas wrote:
| Now I feel bad for crows. They're in the same MALIGNANTLY USELESS
| boat as humans.
|
| > "For the rest of the earth's organisms, existence is relatively
| uncomplicated. Their lives are about three things: survival,
| reproduction, death--and nothing else. But we know too much to
| content ourselves with surviving, reproducing, dying--and nothing
| else. We know we are alive and know we will die. We also know we
| will suffer during our lives before suffering--slowly or quickly
| --as we draw near to death. This is the knowledge we "enjoy" as
| the most intelligent organisms to gush from the womb of nature.
| And being so, we feel shortchanged if there is nothing else for
| us than to survive, reproduce, and die. We want there to be more
| to it than that, or to think there is. This is the tragedy:
| Consciousness has forced us into the paradoxical position of
| striving to be unself-conscious of what we are--hunks of spoiling
| flesh on disintegrating bones." - Thomas Ligotti
| FredPret wrote:
| That Ligotti chap really managed to put the darkest possible
| spin on the greatest possible miracle - consciousness.
|
| Our brains represent a step change in the timeline of
| complexity in the universe, from subatomic things spontaneously
| coalescing into atoms, all the way up to Thomas the paranoid
| android.
|
| Instead of being depressed that we will get hurt and die, let's
| be happy that we will be able to experience many interesting
| and wonderful things, many of which can be quite pleasant and
| meaningful.
| gpderetta wrote:
| > That Ligotti chap really managed to put the darkest
| possible spin on the greatest possible miracle -
| consciousness
|
| I think that Blindsight and its author Peter Watts have a
| stronger claim :)
| asdfasgasdgasdg wrote:
| In the counterfactual universe where we had strong evidence
| of higher cognition sans consciousness, sure. But it's pure
| speculation that anything like his space critters can exist
| in real life. Perhaps so, perhaps not. Fortunately, we will
| never know.
| NoGravitas wrote:
| "One cringes to hear scientists cooing over the universe or
| any part thereof like schoolgirls over-heated by their first
| crush. From the studies of Krafft-Ebbing onward, we know that
| it is possible to become excited about anything--from shins
| to shoehorns. But it would be nice if just one of these
| gushing eggheads would step back and, as a concession to
| objectivity, speak the truth: THERE IS NOTHING INNATELY
| IMPRESSIVE ABOUT THE UNIVERSE OR ANYTHING IN IT." -- Thomas
| Ligotti, The Conspiracy Against the Human Race
| jvanderbot wrote:
| "Thomas Ligotti is a contemporary American horror writer.
| His writings are rooted in several literary genres - most
| prominently weird fiction - and have been described by
| critics as works of philosophical horror, often formed into
| short stories and novellas in the tradition of gothic
| fiction"
|
| The guy makes a living spouting this kind of depressing
| prose. So, he's good at it. I bet he might enjoy it,
| sometimes, too. Maybe the recognition, a little? So,
| perhaps he's a counter example to his own dour outlook.
| morelisp wrote:
| He's famously reclusive (and not even in an interesting
| way) and hates being known for his writing.
| Loughla wrote:
| >hates being known for his writing.
|
| Not to sound too cynical, but if he hates being known for
| his writing, why does he write and publish? Why have a
| website about his works?
|
| That's very strange to me. I could understand hating
| being famous. But hating being known for the thing you're
| literally putting into the world so that people know
| about it?
| morelisp wrote:
| I don't think has a website.
|
| > It is important to note that while all copyright-
| related content is presented with the permission of
| Thomas Ligotti, TLO was created upon the solitary actions
| of Jon Padgett and continues to exist independent of the
| direction or promotion of Thomas Ligotti.
|
| I think it's normal for someone to feel the need to write
| and publish without wanting recognition. His publishing
| schedule is erratic and also dropped precipitously as he
| got well-known.
| nwiswell wrote:
| Well he's already conceded that there's nothing
| impressive about his writing.
| bee_rider wrote:
| Lots of people hate their jobs.
|
| In the case of being a writer, having some sort of PR
| output (like a website) is part of managing your brand or
| whatever I guess. Of course it isn't mandatory, but I bet
| people have done things they hated more for money.
| bdowling wrote:
| > NOTHING INNATELY IMPRESSIVE
|
| An asteroid impacting the Earth will surely make an
| impression on its surface. Therefore, there ARE innately
| impressive things in the universe.
| [deleted]
| pmoriarty wrote:
| Saying that nothing impresses Thomas Ligotti is not the
| same as saying that nothing impresses anyone.
| FredPret wrote:
| That guy was edgy
| fourthark wrote:
| Isn't that just saying that impressiveness is not
| objective?
| omnicognate wrote:
| "Objectivity", "INNATELY IMPRESSIVE".
|
| "Impressiveness" is about the most _sub_ jective thing I
| can think of. It's literally about whether it impresses
| someone.
|
| I've never heard of this Ligotti chap, but these quotes are
| not selling me on him.
| throwanem wrote:
| Ligotti's body of work constitutes perhaps the longest
| suicide note, and perhaps also the one most "writerly" in
| its composition, thus far in human history. That the act
| has yet to be consummated detracts little from this
| accomplishment, but one may to no less use or benefit
| spend time perusing road accident footage.
| groby_b wrote:
| I'd argue that the things he despises so much are the
| exact same things that prevent consummation, so at a
| fundamental level, I doubt the soundness of his
| reasoning.
| morelisp wrote:
| _It would be a sign of callowness to bemoan the fact that
| pessimistic writers do not rate and may be reprehended in
| both good conscience and good company. Some critics of
| the pessimist often think they have his back to the wall
| when they blithely jeer, "If that is how this fellow
| feels, he should either kill himself or be decried as a
| hypocrite." That the pessimist should kill himself in
| order to live up to his ideas may be counterattacked as
| betraying such a crass intellect that it does not deserve
| a response. Yet it is not much of a chore to produce one.
| Simply because someone has reached the conclusion that
| the amount of suffering in this world is enough that
| anyone would be better off never having been born does
| not mean that by force of logic or sincerity he must kill
| himself. It only means he has concluded that the amount
| of suffering in this world is enough that anyone would be
| better off never having been born. Others may disagree on
| this point as it pleases them, but they must accept that
| if they believe themselves to have a stronger case than
| the pessimist, then they are mistaken._
|
| _Naturally, there are pessimists who do kill themselves,
| but nothing obliges them to kill themselves or live with
| the mark of the hypocrite on their brow. Voluntary death
| might seem a thoroughly negative course of action, but it
| is not as simple as that. Every negation is adulterated
| or stealthily launched by an affirmative spirit. An
| unequivocal "no" cannot be uttered or acted upon.
| Lucifer's last words in heaven may have been "Non
| serviam," but none has served the Almighty so dutifully,
| since His sideshow in the clouds would never draw any
| customers if it were not for the main attraction of the
| devil's hell on earth. Only catatonics and coma patients
| can persevere in a dignified withdrawal from life's
| rattle and hum. Without a "yes" in our hearts, nothing
| would be done. And to be done with our existence en masse
| would be the most ambitious affirmation of all._
| throwanem wrote:
| I believe this is the point at which a Brit might say
| something on the order of "he likes the smell of his own
| farts, doesn't he?"
| morelisp wrote:
| Speaking of such a crass intellect that it does not
| deserve a response...
| jotm wrote:
| Well, it's hard to be happy when it requires you to actually
| be _able_ to do what you want to do. Social hierarchy,
| resources and even brain chemistry are not in everyone 's
| favour.
|
| Contentness can be learned, though.
|
| Or just use that brainpower and create medication that tricks
| the primitive parts of the brain into being happy. Profit!
| antisthenes wrote:
| > Or just use that brainpower and create medication that
| tricks the primitive parts of the brain into being happy.
| Profit!
|
| Thankfully, nature already did that for us. It's THC and
| Alcohol.
| NoGravitas wrote:
| "There seems to be an inborn drive in all human beings not
| to live in a steady emotional state, which would suggest
| that such a state is not tolerable to most people. Why else
| would someone succumb to the attractions of romantic love
| more than once? Didn't they learn their lesson the first
| time or the tenth time or the twentieth time? And it's the
| same old lesson: everything in this life--I repeat,
| everything--is more trouble than it's worth. And simply
| being alive is the basic trouble. This is something that is
| more recognized in Eastern societies than in the West.
| There's a minor tradition in Greek philosophy that
| instructs us to seek a state of equanimity rather than one
| of ecstasy, but it never really caught on for obvious
| reasons. Buddhism advises its practitioners not to seek
| highs or lows but to follow a middle path to personal
| salvation from the painful cravings of the average sensual
| life, which is why it was pretty much reviled by the masses
| and mutated into forms more suited to human drives and
| desires. It seems evident that very few people can simply
| sit still. Children spin in circles until they collapse
| with dizziness." -- Thomas Ligotti
| pmoriarty wrote:
| Happiness is not getting what you want, it's wanting what
| you get.
| causasui wrote:
| See also: the Ernest Becker quote featured in my profile.
|
| The Denial of Death was a life-changing read for me.
| 52-6F-62 wrote:
| "Bah, humbug!"
| nemosaltat wrote:
| Homo sapiens sapiens: Man who knows that he knows. What does he
| know? That he's going to die.
| tremon wrote:
| No, that's homo sapiens moribundus
| groby_b wrote:
| There's no other kind.
| throwanem wrote:
| Well, Ligotti would certainly know from malignant uselessness.
| Perhaps if he took a little more trouble for self-reflection he
| would less often perpetrate it.
| WinterMount223 wrote:
| The selfish genes strike again. Humans (animals) are machines
| evolved to replicate their genes, who don't care how happy or
| unhappy their replication machines are.
| titzer wrote:
| "Oh, Thomas, silly ape. It's not about you."
|
| - Sincerely, this amazing universe that could contemplate
| itself using your brain, if you'd stop feeling so bad about
| yourself
| amatecha wrote:
| nice, I like this. thanks for sharing (and the later quote
| further into the thread). it's such irony that the "miraculous"
| consciousness we experience is simultaneously a curse ensuring
| direct awareness of our mortality and [depending on opinion]
| triviality.
| bobro wrote:
| jesus ligotti. go look at a sunset. eat some ice cream. hug a
| loved one. good lord.
| blueprint wrote:
| What if a thing with consciousness is also the only living
| thing which can accumulate a "self" that can propagate through
| lifetimes? The principle of how plants produce seeds would be
| the same although obviously the systems are different. To start
| with, plants pass on their "selves" through their "bodies" and
| seeds, but human children are obviously distinct selves,
| therefore, perhaps we ought to start searching for a physical
| system where a human self exists. It's an unconfirmed and
| probably foolhardy assumption that the brain alone creates and
| supports the existence or propagation of consciousness. What
| else in the universe is capable of doing what we already
| attribute to the physical capabilities of the brain as
| pertaining to what we call the physical (e.g. electromagnetic)
| activities of consciousness?
| technothrasher wrote:
| > It's an unconfirmed and probably foolhardy assumption that
| the brain alone creates and supports the existence or
| propagation of consciousness.
|
| This is not an assumption that science makes. However, we
| have never observed consciousness in anything that does not
| have a brain, and physically altering a brain can cause
| fundamental changes in consciousness. So, until there is
| evidence that consciousness is not tied directly to a brain,
| its the best working model we have. Suppositions to the
| contrary are interesting but meaningless without being
| supported by evidence.
| glaslong wrote:
| This is advanced level edgelording
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| tombert wrote:
| Crows and ravens continue to amaze me every day. I'm fairly sure
| that there are a lot of humans that cannot ponder the content of
| their own mind.
|
| Makes me feel bad for using the insult "bird brain" in the past.
| tux1968 wrote:
| Years ago I was putting out the garbage in the back alley behind
| our building where I lived on the 8th floor. A crow attacked me
| out of the blue. Distracted by the attack, the back door slammed
| shut behind me. Since my key was only good for the front door, I
| had to walk around the building. That damn crow followed me the
| entire time, dive bombing my head, and screaming bloody murder at
| me. It was a little spooky.
|
| When I finally got back inside and upstairs, I went and looked
| out the living room window, which looked out the same direction
| as the back alley. The crow had flown back around and was at the
| 8th floor looking in the window, from the other side of the
| pigeon netting we had on our balcony. On the inside of the pigeon
| netting, was another crow, desperately trying to figure out how
| it could escape. Not really sure how it had got itself through
| the pigeon netting in the first place.
|
| I went out and sliced a hole through the netting and the trapped
| crow quickly joined its mate outside, who finally stopped
| screaming bloody murder. To this day it still amazes me that the
| crow's mate, knew which apartment I lived in and spotted me
| downstairs.
| bdamm wrote:
| One day I was out walking by the water. A small bird was
| standing on a rock, apparently unable to fly. Crows were
| gathering and preparing to feast. I tried to scare them off,
| and sat by the little bird to prevent them from eating it.
| Silly, but it seemed right to me. The crows were not impressed.
| They became more daring, and eventually I decided to leave. A
| trio of crows broke off from the group and followed me all the
| way home, perhaps a mile's distance. They flew from branch to
| branch as I walked, with the tail crow moving to the lead every
| time. The tactical pattern continued the entire time.
|
| Maybe it was just me, but for months I could have sworn there
| were crows out sounding the alarm whenever I left my apartment.
|
| Bears are another animal that seem to recognize individuals and
| take offences personally.
| zmgsabst wrote:
| Crows are capable of identifying and remembering individual
| humans.
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/26/science/26crow.html
|
| There's a delicate balance to be struck if you live in a
| neighborhood with a large crow population and also like to
| pet neighborhood cats -- and like most of life, bribes go a
| long way to lubricate the peace.
| at-fates-hands wrote:
| I think the real question here is when _consciousness_ evolved
| and where did it evolve from? Researchers have always felt a
| cerebral cortex is necessary to experience "consciousness" but
| crows have confirmed that's not necessary which only deepens the
| mystery:
|
| _This research has important consequences for our understanding
| of the evolution of higher intelligence. First, a cerebral cortex
| is not needed, and there are other anatomical means to achieve
| the same outcome. Second, either the evolution of consciousness
| is very ancient, tracing back to the last common ancestor of
| mammals and birds about 320 million years ago, or, equally
| intriguing, consciousness arose at least twice later on,
| independently in mammals and birds. Both options raise the
| likelihood, in my view, that higher intelligence on other planets
| may not necessarily be mammal or human-like, but could very well
| be birdlike._
|
| https://www.smithsonianmag.com/air-space-magazine/crows-are-...
| [deleted]
| jrapdx3 wrote:
| My house sits at near tree-top level, Steller's jays are frequent
| visitors. Like other corvids they're intelligent but also cranky,
| often contentious critters. The jays absolutely adore peanuts.
| Fun to watch their peanut selection procedure. They'll pick up a
| peanut then put it down, pick up another one put it down, maybe
| go back to first one. We're convinced they're hefting peanuts to
| select the heaviest. Then there's the occasional very vocal
| "argument" that breaks out. Bears astonishingly close resemblance
| to shrill overwrought political "discussions" we've heard, it's
| hilarious. Without doubt the jays are comedians in the avian
| community.
|
| Curiously crows (abundant around here too) have displayed little
| interest in the peanuts on offer. OTOH there have been "wars"
| between the crows and jays, not sure what "issues" precipitated
| highly vocal confrontations. I assume it was territorial.
| Significantly there was never any evidence of killed or wounded
| black or blue participants.
|
| Strikes me as sad and shameful that these corvid cousins know
| more about resolving differences than we humans ever seem to
| learn.
| juramento wrote:
| But do crows know that humans know that crows know what they know
| and can ponder the content of their own minds ?
| Razengan wrote:
| Do humans?
| lostmsu wrote:
| Yes, obviously.
| [deleted]
| bee_rider wrote:
| Human behavior must be very confusing to the animals who
| observe it. The strange situations we create by (for example)
| dropping nets and catching dolphins, only to let them free. (Do
| they know we put out those nets, or are we just helpful monkeys
| that sit on the evil loud floating net monster and sometimes
| save them?).
|
| And I wonder if the animals that we run these intelligence
| tests on know the humans are behind the tests. Maybe if crows
| achieve a culture with legends and stories, they'll have the a
| trickster god -- white coat, glasses man. For lab rats I guess
| white coat glasses man would take a more malicious aspect.
| aspenmayer wrote:
| Are you familiar with the Rats of NIMH series?
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrs._Frisby_and_the_Rats_of_NI.
| ..
|
| http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?15912
| bee_rider wrote:
| Saw the movie, and read the first book I think (would have
| been middle-elementary school aged, so memory is a bit
| hazy).
| dougSF70 wrote:
| Does those crows know they won't be flying any time soon?
| cmpb wrote:
| Ever since I was a kid, whenever I would read things like this or
| stuff about animals doing human-like things, I always wind up
| thinking "what would it be like to be <whatever animal> for a
| day?", and in particular, what exactly _are_ the similarities
| between human cognition and other animals'. Even as a thought
| experiment along the lines of "assume we had a machine that could
| swap brains", it's always seems reasonable to assume that there
| are certain faculties that we possess that would not translate
| and would render the experience uncomprehendable (i.e., as a
| bird, do I even have the ability to actively probe my
| consciousness, to conceive and remember higher-order thoughts?
| I've always assumed the answer is a hard no).
|
| I find myself wondering more and more if we are more similar than
| I give animals credit for.
| peter303 wrote:
| Our Last Common Ancestors were 250 million years ago in the
| Triassic. Amazing how intelligence can evolve multiple times.
| mellavora wrote:
| naw, just once, in trees. The rest of us got it from them.
| javajosh wrote:
| It is surprising. I suspect there are many millions of planets
| in our galaxy where intelligent life evolved and even invented
| radio, and I suspect that all but one or two of those
| civilizations ended disaster within about 100 years. It seems
| to be quite a challenge for a technological civilization to
| survive its own side-effects.
| awb wrote:
| > I suspect that all but one or two of those civilizations
| ended disaster within about 100 years
|
| All sorts of biological / ecological factors would come into
| play like average lifespan, the size of life in relation to
| the size of the planet, resource scarcity, reproduction
| rates, mobility, avg. number of offspring, mutation rates,
| weather patterns, geography, etc.
|
| Then you get into social and technological factors.
|
| We have a sample size of 1, so it's hard to extrapolate or
| understand where we are on the probability curve.
|
| The best data point we might have for a self-inflicted
| civilization ending event would be looking at it from a
| smaller point view. How many times in history has one group
| attacked another such that both groups ceased to exist?
|
| One positive sign is that even with all our destruction and
| violence, someone usually wins or backs down with the ability
| to continue on living.
|
| Of course there are always long-tail events like mutually
| assured destruction, but I don't know if 100 years is the
| correct timetable for ~100% certainty.
|
| There was an interesting HN discussion about it a few weeks
| ago here with folks chiming in on the best ways to assess the
| odds of a long-tail event like MAD:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30545558
| sph wrote:
| The Fermi Paradox might be on an earlier stage of evolution.
| Perhaps it's easier that we thought to evolve intelligence
| from our common ancestor, but going from inert chemistry
| floating in space to that common ancestor is astronomically
| rare.
| doliveira wrote:
| There's the data point that life here on Earth began as
| soon as it could when the planet cooled off. So it suggests
| life itself might not be that rare.
| klabb3 wrote:
| It's amazing indeed. Octopus is ~600M years away, same story
| and even more different biology.
| dmje wrote:
| The strangest picture I ever took was of an upside down crow.
| It's the first load on our band website https://blameclub.com
|
| I posted it to Reddit at the time and got a bunch of suggestions
| ranging from "it's dead" to "crows love to play tricks". I never
| got to the bottom of what was going on.
| ornornor wrote:
| Maybe one day we'll start accepting we're not the only
| "intelligent" things on this planet and start treating all
| animals a little better/stop eating them.
| u385639 wrote:
| How will we teach other animals to stop eating other animals?
| pxi wrote:
| Is it possible that crows might also have some form of religion?
| dorianmariefr wrote:
| Rick knew I guess https://rickandmorty.fandom.com/wiki/Two_Crows
| MaxMoney wrote:
| mitch3x3 wrote:
| About a year ago my dog (~7mo at the time) would lunge at the
| ravens and try to chase them even though he was on a leash. I
| changed my route to prevent that behavior, but the ravens
| remembered both of us.
|
| One morning they flew above us with a rotting sausage and dropped
| it right in front of my dog and waited for him to eat it. I had
| to pull it out of his mouth and when I looked up the ravens were
| all watching us.
|
| I can't say for sure, but it certainly felt like revenge.
| aiana wrote:
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