[HN Gopher] The Wisdom in Kung Fu Panda
___________________________________________________________________
The Wisdom in Kung Fu Panda
Author : moviewise
Score : 255 points
Date : 2022-03-23 14:17 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (moviewise.substack.com)
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| the_af wrote:
| First, I want to say I really like Kung Fu Panda... _now_.
|
| In particular, I really like the 2D intro (I wish the whole movie
| was drawn in that style, which reminds me of the awesome Samurai
| Jack), and also Tai Lung's escape is a masterpiece of foreboding
| and action. This is a credible villain that everyone fears, and
| he quickly demonstrates why.
|
| That said, back when it was released I was training in kung fu
| and some of the message of "the untrained newcomer is better than
| the devoted pupils" felt irritating to me. They've been training
| hard for years, they are pretty good, but the movie effectively
| tell them: you're not the chosen ones, let's pick someone who's
| never trained instead.
|
| This is a frequent Hollywood trope that I always find annoying,
| The Newcomer (usually a child) Who Trumps All Experts. I
| understand _why_ it exists: the novice newcomer serves as the
| point of view of the audience. But it 's still annoying.
| kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote:
| There's also the aspect of the new guy who doesn't know what
| others say is impossible, so he tries things others don't even
| attempt. And sometimes, that leads to success.
| the_af wrote:
| Yes, of course. But did they show in the movie the failings
| or shortcomings of all the other trainees, what it was that
| they considered "impossible"? They were training hard and
| didn't understand why Po was picked over them. We, the
| audience, are also not told why.
| Dove wrote:
| Hard training is not the only ingredient to excellence. Po
| had an abundance of the secret ingredient: a spirit of
| authentic love and enthusiasm, leading to a practice
| dominated by play.
|
| It's a theme you can encounter in a lot of martial arts
| contexts. You could say it is the entire lesson of Dragon
| Ball Z -- Vegeta exemplifies the ambitious hard work guts
| and glory approach. And it takes him very far. But he's
| always playing second fiddle to Goku's approach, defined by
| love, enthusiasm, and play. Likewise, Shifu cannot surpass
| Oogway.
|
| It's a theme you'll encounter outside of martial arts, too.
| For example, high level hackers are said to be
| characterized by playfulness -- you find puns and puzzles
| and riddles and laughter, devouring of technical manuals
| like candy. There are rigorous hours of morally disciplined
| study, but this could not really be said to be the source
| of their power or the character of their existence. Sure,
| there's plenty of hard work, and it's unavoidable, but the
| spirit of love and curiosity and play and enthusiasm will
| take you much farther than the spirit of discipline and
| ambition alone.
|
| I have a book about learning electric guitar that repeats
| the lesson. The author writes (in paraphrase - I don't have
| it with me at the moment), "In my experience, there are two
| groups of students of the guitar: those who practice a lot
| because they want to be good, and those who practice every
| spare moment because they literally would rather not do
| anything else. One of these groups gets really, really good
| -- I'll let you guess which."
|
| Po has _that_. His authentic enthusiasm leads to a spirit
| that finds the suffering of practice to be light because he
| is so overjoyed that he is _doing kung fu_. It leads to an
| encyclopedic knowledge of the art because he would
| literally not rather be reading about anything else. He
| surpasses Shifu and perhaps eventually Oogway in subsequent
| films, entirely because this spirit leads him places that
| mere discipline and ambition never would.
|
| Are his kicks as clean as the five? Never. That's not his
| strength. And to the film's credit, he doesn't skip the
| discipline and training aspect. But he remains physically a
| bit sloppy to the end of the series, and I think this is
| making the point that _this is not what strength is_. Po 's
| strength is in his spirit, and this is what in the end
| makes him the greatest master.
|
| I have always found his fight with Tai Lung a little
| unsatisfying, too. It seems odd that he's immune to nerve
| attacks. What, because he's fat or furry or something? What
| does that have to do with excellence? It seems a one off
| oddity, not a deep lesson. But the film is so
| philosophically on point that I doubt it's something this
| dumb. The lesson about the superiority of a spirit of play
| is so true to life that I have to think there's something
| here.
|
| The best interpretation I have is this -- what we see with
| Po and Tai Lung might be metaphorically talking about a
| real life phenomenon: facing an opponent as overpowering as
| Tai Lung will absolutely sap the strength from your limbs
| if your faith is in your body and in your training. You
| think you're strong? He's stronger. You think you're well
| trained? Please. There will always be someone better, and
| when you face them, you will be paralyzed and weak by the
| knowledge of that fact. But if you are a lover of the art
| and it's something you _cannot turn off_ , that effect does
| not work on you. You cannot lose faith because your efforts
| were never about faith. As hopeless as you may feel about
| your odds of success (and Po feels hopeless right up until
| the moment when he wins!), you retain your strength and
| alertness because to you fighting is not about winning --
| it is about being who you are. The situation cannot change
| who you are.
| ru552 wrote:
| They were all susceptible to the dreaded nerve attack. Po,
| not so much.
| throwaway675309 wrote:
| To me it speaks more about how in the end no matter how much
| training or hard work you put in, sometimes it all comes down
| to a question of genetics.
|
| Thousands of sprinters put in the same hard work and training
| regimen every day but there can only be one Usain Bolt.
| firasd wrote:
| I actually have found comfort in my personal life from thinking
| about that little passage where the panda frets, "Maybe I should
| just quit and go back to making noodles", and the guru responds,
| "Quit, don't quit. Noodles, don't noodles. You are too concerned
| about what was and what will be."
|
| Sometimes you just need to stop thinking so much and get through
| the day.
|
| There is a similar point from Marcus Aurelius where he says (in
| this old timey translation): "Let not future things disturb thee,
| for thou wilt come to them... having with thee the same reason
| which now thou usest."
|
| PS. Another example of unexpectedly good writing is when the
| student-turned-bad-guy bitterly says, "What I ever did, I did to
| make you proud! Tell me how proud you are, Shifu", and then after
| a pause Shifu replies with genuine agreement: "I have always been
| proud of you... And it was my pride that blinded me... too much
| to see what you were becoming."
| unsupp0rted wrote:
| I've always been curious why we translate old passages into
| "thou"s and "let not"s.
|
| This might be why modern people feel so disconnected from past
| people, even though we're basically identical.
|
| I connect a lot better with:
|
| > "Forget the future. When and if it comes, you'll have the
| same resources to draw on--the same logos"
|
| (from Gregory Hayes translation, if I'm not mistaken)
|
| https://www.amazon.com/Meditations-New-Translation-Marcus-Au...
| Netcob wrote:
| I agree - I think a case could be made for translating older
| versions of a language into the latest one, but especially if
| it's already a translation from a completely different
| language.
|
| What's news to me is that people in the present are
| translating old non-English texts into some older form of
| English - is that true?
| jimbokun wrote:
| Aren't these just old translations, written when that kind of
| language was commonly spoken?
| unsupp0rted wrote:
| A lot of these translations were from the 20th century,
| with "thous" and "let thy"s found only in translated
| biblical verses and er, these translations of ancient
| works.
| EdwardDiego wrote:
| If I'm guessing, they're likely trying to convey the
| formality or informality of the pronoun used in the
| original, what's called the T - V distinction (from
| Latin, the informal tu vs the formal vos)
|
| In English, thou was the informal, you the formal, as the
| subject in a sentence, with thee and ye the object form.
| Hence "God rest ye merry gentlemen" is better translated
| these days as "God rest you, merry gentlemen".
|
| The T-V distinction is also why the Quakers maintained
| the thou form for some time, to indicate equality among
| all men (in the gender-neutral sense of the world), as
| you implied a difference in status.
|
| The question of why the Bible used thous and thees is
| another interesting rabbit hole.
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/16/opinion/sunday/pronoun
| s-q...
| dwohnitmok wrote:
| > I've always been curious why we translate old passages into
| "thou"s and "let not"s.
|
| > This might be why modern people feel so disconnected from
| past people, even though we're basically identical.
|
| If the original text used what was already considered an
| archaic or rarefied register at its time of composition (as
| is often true of various classical works, indeed this is
| often basically what a "classical language" means), then a
| translator, in the process of trying to convey the original
| author's tone and intent, might choose to do the same in the
| target language.
| waynesonfire wrote:
| What a terrible translation. it's not true at all. Same
| resoucres in the futute? Unlikely. Nothing provides such
| guarantee.
|
| The original quote with thou and thees that you're curious
| about instead speaks to the intrinsic motivations being
| available when the future arrives not resources.
|
| So there is your answer? Meaning is lost in translation so
| best to stay as true to the original message as possible.
| unsupp0rted wrote:
| How would you translate the original quote into modern
| English?
|
| Surely any major human language can accurately capture a
| translation from any other major human language, even if it
| requires more words than the original to convey the
| meaning.
| tinco wrote:
| I think it's not specifically thinking that you should stop
| doing, but worrying. "Maybe I should just quit and go back to
| making noodles" is not a phrase he says while thinking, he says
| it while sulking.
|
| Part of living in the moment, is taking the time to reflect on
| your feelings and your dreams and judge them against the path
| that you are on. Just don't cross the line and fall over into
| the pool, make sure that once you've thought your thoughts you
| do the things you want and/or need to do to continue on your
| path.
|
| There is another Oogway quote that can be taken in a similar
| wrong way. He says "There is just news. There is no good or
| bad". Immediately after Shifu tells the news and Oogway
| hilariously responds "that is bad news". He seems to be
| contradicting himself, but I think the lesson should be taken
| from his demeanor, not from his literal words. Shifu is clearly
| distressed about the news, but Oogway takes it calmly. Not
| worrying, but carefully considering.
|
| Such a great movie :)
| galaxyLogic wrote:
| I think Incredible String Band sums it up nicely in their
| song Job's Tears:
|
| "Happy man, the happy man Doing the best he can, the best he
| can "
|
| Surprisingly deep wisdom from such young artists, I think.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd5yq76q51c
| auto wrote:
| > Oogway hilariously responds "that is bad news"
|
| Ahh, but don't forget, there's a small pause before Oogway
| continues "...if you do not believe that the Dragon Warrior
| can stop him"
|
| Admittedly, I only know this because my oldest daughter is
| obsessed with Kung Fu Panda at the moment and we watch it
| daily.
| tinco wrote:
| Ah I forgot about that, I have only watched it twice as an
| adult with no children ;)
| agumonkey wrote:
| I have this viscous view on things that the future is 1% change
| daily. You can't really plan anything in an organic social
| system where everything is coupled to everything. You push a
| bit and see, push a bit more.
| pdimitar wrote:
| > _Sometimes you just need to stop thinking so much and get
| through the day._
|
| I can be moved by this philosophy all the way to tears and
| crying (and it did happen in the past). However, the even more
| tragic part is that it doesn't exactly apply in today's world
| where most people are bound to their jobs. If they don't
| "worry" about the future and quit and try to do something else
| that doesn't work out... well... rent / mortgage installment is
| still due in two weeks.
|
| I really LOVE the philosophy you cited. I just can't see how
| it's applicable to today's world. The system is specifically
| made to keep us as hamsters on wheels.
| Swizec wrote:
| Worrying about what will be in 3 years doesn't help you pay
| the rent _now_. Thinking about what was 3 years ago
| _definitely_ does nothing for your rent now.
|
| If the rent is due and there's no money, what can you do
| _now_ to fix that? What action can you take, right now, that
| gets you closer to paying rent? All the worrying in the world
| does nothing to fix the situation.
|
| Yes have a long-term plan, follow a strategy, even make time
| in the day/week/quarter to realign and think about that
| stuff. But when shit hits the fan, only _doing something_
| right now gets you closer to a solution.
| vaidhy wrote:
| There is a different way to think about this - The problem is
| the worrying, not that you can live on air or universe juice.
| Even Buddha needs food, water and shelter.
|
| The problem as you correctly put is that people worry, but
| that does not lead to a solution. There is really no point in
| worrying - if you cannot change something, why worry about
| it? If you can change it, why worry? You might have to think
| deeply about how to change it and act on it, but just
| worrying is like praying - it gives an semblance of action
| without actually doing anything.
|
| The hamster, the wheel and the cage are illusions. We choose
| certain things as more important to us than others. You can
| always quit and walk out, but a lot of times we prioritize
| our comfort, an (illusory) stable earnings etc. over freedom.
| lapitopi wrote:
| I'm currently reading Thich Nhat Hanh's Peace Is Every Step
| [0]. In it he says something similar. It's not that
| worrying is not useful. You need to worry for sustenance,
| shelter. But a lot of thinking that we as modern humans do
| is useless. Me going over over on why I didn't get that
| job, or why did my colleague say or ..., you get the idea.
| Mindfulness can help with this a bit where if you find
| yourself caught in a useless thought loop, you can step
| back and try to figure out if you do have agency, if not,
| just move on.
|
| [0] https://www.amazon.com/Peace-Every-Step-Mindfulness-
| Everyday...
| brightball wrote:
| "Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something
| to do but it doesn't get you anywhere." - Van Wilder
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| > people worry, but that does not lead to a solution.
|
| Jesus said, "who of you by worrying can add one moment to
| their lifespan?" (or in another saying "...add one inch to
| their stature?")
| firasd wrote:
| Yeah I think mindfulness is not about ignoring your problems.
| It's more about not letting your mind wander unnecessarily. I
| think this is our gift and curse as humans--we can plan for
| the future and reminisce on the past, which enables great
| achievements, but tied up with this kind of 'time traveling'
| thinking are emotions like anxiety, sadness, disappointment.
| So if we could somehow just be efficient calculating machines
| we wouldn't need this philosophy.
|
| (Although lately I've been realizing that if we were just
| cold calculating machines maybe we wouldn't have complex
| drives and passions, so probably emotions are not just an
| extraneous 'curse', and are part of why we do what we do.)
| barrenko wrote:
| You'll be okay without a job, money, maybe even housing and
| food.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| > However, the even more tragic part is that it doesn't
| exactly apply in today's world where most people are bound to
| their jobs.
|
| I'm not sure it's really all that different now than it has
| ever been. Sure, it's not like people were always and
| everywhere working for some other entity in what we'd tend to
| recognize as a "job", but there has always been a struggle.
| The struggle in the past was to be able to grow enough food
| to last the winter to stave off starvation.
| jimbokun wrote:
| The entire premise of the website where we're discussing this
| topic, was to create a culture of equipping programmers to
| escape the hamster wheel of employment by starting their own
| businesses.
|
| No, it's not easy. But there's also the early retirement
| people, who spend little and save aggressively to escape the
| hamster wheel.
|
| And there is also the mentality of not letting the thing you
| do to pay the rent or mortgage define you. Put in your 8
| hours, but don't let it consume you outside of those hours.
|
| You don't have to spend your whole life in the noodle shop.
| There are other ways to live.
| the_common_man wrote:
| > The entire premise of the website where we're discussing
| this topic, was to create a culture of equipping
| programmers to escape the hamster wheel of employment by
| starting their own businesses.
|
| This seems like a minority these days. Most people are just
| chasing the house ownership hamster wheel.
| UnpossibleJim wrote:
| We are more mobile today than at any point in history, to be
| honest (at least in western European style cultures... for a
| large portion of the world, this statement _might_ hold true,
| but to a much lesser degree, if at all). Indentures servitude
| has been abolished to a large degree (this can be argued, but
| this is argumentative on the basis of predatory and college
| loans) and slavery has been outlawed (again, this can be
| argued than prison labor is a form of slave labor in states
| like California when used to fight wildfires, but I 'm not
| sure how much water those arguments hold). Conscripted
| military service is gone in America and a lot of European
| countries (though several have mandatory service
| requirements). Job mobility and the ability to save money is,
| while not easier than _any_ point in history on a point by
| point history basis (the 60 's and 80's, I believe were
| easier... check my math, I might be wrong, there may have
| been others), on a macro scale of history - comparing
| medieval, renaissance or previous Europe and Russian and
| Chinese wealth distribution, mobility and freedoms of self -
| rent/mortgage may be due, but you can still break your
| agreement, sell your house (there may be a penalty), quit
| your job and be a homeless ascetic if you want. There are
| dozens of YouTube channels on VanLife you can watch people
| doing it... not for me, but you can do it. You can join an
| abbey (though, I think you could have always done this... I'm
| not sure about this). You can leave the system and jump off
| the wheel, you just have to jump off the wheel and stop
| getting what the wheel gives you.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| We have less freedom of movement at will and ability to
| disobey orders than at many long stretches of civilization,
| at least according to anthro and archaeology research
| covered in Graeber's last/new book
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| I hope you don't mind, but I've reformatted your comment so
| that I could read it more easily and thought others would
| benefit as well:
|
| We are more mobile today than at any point in history, to
| be honest[0]. Indentures servitude has been abolished to a
| large degree[1] and slavery has been outlawed[2].
| Conscripted military service is gone in America and a lot
| of European countries[3]. Job mobility and the ability to
| save money is, while not easier than any point in history
| on a point by point history basis[4], on a macro scale of
| history - comparing medieval, renaissance or previous
| Europe and Russian and Chinese wealth distribution,
| mobility and freedoms of self - rent/mortgage may be due,
| but you can still break your agreement, sell your house[5],
| quit your job and be a homeless ascetic if you want. There
| are dozens of YouTube channels on VanLife you can watch
| people doing it... not for me, but you can do it. You can
| join an abbey[6]. You can leave the system and jump off the
| wheel, you just have to jump off the wheel and stop getting
| what the wheel gives you.
|
| [0] at least in western European style cultures... for a
| large portion of the world, this statement might hold true,
| but to a much lesser degree, if at all
|
| [1] this can be argued, but this is argumentative on the
| basis of predatory and college loans
|
| [2] again, this can be argued than prison labor is a form
| of slave labor in states like California when used to fight
| wildfires, but I'm not sure how much water those arguments
| hold
|
| [3] though several have mandatory service requirements
|
| [4] the 60's and 80's, I believe were easier... check my
| math, I might be wrong, there may have been others
|
| [5] there may be a penalty
|
| [6] though, I think you could have always done this... I'm
| not sure about this
| UnpossibleJim wrote:
| Yeah, sorry. I was rushing to get the thought out. I
| should have gone back and reformatted to make it legible.
| Thank you =)
| sorokod wrote:
| You could have a look at what Eckhart Tolle had to say on the
| subject and take it from there.
|
| "Realize deeply that the present moment is all you have. Make
| the now the primary focus of your life."
|
| Bear in mind that Kung Fu Panda is to philosophy is what Kung
| Fu Panda is to martial arts.
| sharadov wrote:
| Reminded me on this great answer by Eric Weinstein on Quora
| https://www.quora.com/In-Kung-Fu-Panda-how-does-Po-end-up-de...
| ecyrb wrote:
| The Beowulf song "today is a gift" sampled the "noodles"
| exchange, which prompted me to watch the KFP movies.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| The past is history, future a mystery. Present is reality,
| that's what we are.
|
| (Rainbow song)
| Melatonic wrote:
| I think the other meaning of the quote is not to avoid planning
| or only live in the moment or that day but to just pick
| something and go for it. Do it well - be excellent. You can
| worry about what was and what will be but at the end of the day
| we are all masters of our own narrative journey.
| Loughla wrote:
| I don't think that's an 'other' meaning as much as a natural
| extension. It's not about planning or not planning. It's not
| about being a master of your own journey.
|
| It's about being able to identify what you can and what you
| cannot control, focusing on the can control and just letting
| the rest occur. This is something I struggle with.
|
| I see things, constantly, that are just rage inducing in
| terms of how stupid they are and how the problems they cause
| impact my life negatively. And I can't do anything about
| them. Yet I still spend time being negative, anxious, or
| otherwise focusing on them. It doesn't help, the problems
| still happen, and I spent time ruminating about them.
| spiddy wrote:
| This reminds me my father when I mentioned bad news he
| always referred to a saying; no need to worry, things you
| can't control you can do nothing about them, and why worry
| about things you can control.
|
| I think the frustration often arise when we create the
| illusion of control and unexpected events shatter that
| idea, bringing ourselves in denial.
|
| A good measure is to keep a buffer for unexpected events
| and prepare yourself sentimentally.
| ga2arch wrote:
| "What happened in Monte Carlo happened, what happened in
| Barcelona happened and what happened in Madrid happened, so
| here we are we are in Rome" - Rafa Nadal
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIkp6n53g2w
|
| "if if if, it doesn't exists" - Rafa Nadal
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T6S9Kbh69Y
|
| "I can lose, he can beat me, but i can't give up" - Rafa Nadal
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L8bnASLDwA
| 2-718-281-828 wrote:
| > "Let not future things disturb thee, for thou wilt come to
| them... having with thee the same reason which now thou usest."
|
| That's what Marcus said? Or rather a veeeeeeeeeeeeeeery old and
| dusty translation of what he said?
| [deleted]
| lchengify wrote:
| I am half Chinese and a martial artist (northern shaolin kung
| fu). I'm also a huge fan of philosophy as expressed via animation
| or science fiction.
|
| When I saw Kung Fu Panda in the theater, I was impressed with how
| a mainstream American animated film captured the subtle aspects
| of my culture. KhoomeiK gets into the details below (I would add
| Buddhism to Daoism and Confucianism, but that's minor), but the
| general stoicism expressed by the characters (except Po) is the
| environment I knew as a child.
|
| Of course Mulan had come out before this, but Mulan was more
| focused on the narrative and themes around the protagonist. KFP
| has an ensemble cast beginning-to-end, which allowed for a
| broader exploration of the philosophy. Each time two characters
| interact, you get some additional debate that paints a broader
| picture, leading to the amazing quotes in this article.
|
| At the time, there were even articles about how surprisingly
| successful it was in China despite being made in the US about
| Chinese philosophy [1]. You could argue this kicked off what has
| now become a much larger Chinese film industry.
|
| I'll add from a strictly technical standpoint, the subtle
| animations for the martial arts are superbly correct. The
| different animals (Tiger, Crane, etc) are explicit Kung Fu
| styles. The stances, forms, weapons and training they show are
| really exact. There's a scene where Shifu corrects young Tai
| Lung's stance with a stick. The stance is real down to the feet
| placement in the animation (bow and arrow stance), and in
| traditional training they do correct you with sticks.
|
| I'll end with one last anecdote: In KFP 2, there's a scene where
| Tigress says she learned punching "hard style" by hitting an
| ironwood tree for 20 years. It's written as a joke, but I
| actually had a Kung Fu instructor who trained that way in real
| life. Now you train on progressively harder surfaces for punching
| over a period of 7 years or more, but when he started in the 80's
| you apparently did it on trees.
|
| [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
| dyn/content/article/2008/0...
| abhorrence wrote:
| > Of course Mulan had come out before this (same year but March
| vs June)
|
| For anyone who was panicking over the passage of time when
| reading this: Kung Fu Panda was released in 2008, Mulan came
| out in 1998.
| lchengify wrote:
| Woops! Corrected.
| joering2 wrote:
| as someone with both Chinese parents and also m.a. (Chow Gar
| school), I felt disrespected when Po plays with Ninja stars. I
| cannot understand why movie that attempts to reflect as much
| Chinese culture as possible (excluding decorating everything
| with Dragons, which is a secret Chinese symbol and not used for
| decorations - even in the biggest Chinese movies you won't find
| too many Dragons) added this insult.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| krapp wrote:
| > I cannot understand why movie that attempts to reflect as
| much Chinese culture as possible (excluding decorating
| everything with Dragons, which is a secret Chinese symbol and
| not used for decorations - even in the biggest Chinese movies
| you won't find too many Dragons) added this insult.
|
| Kung Fu Panda is a movie made by Westerners, for Westerners,
| about the cultural zeitgeist of Asian martial arts films and
| their common tropes as interpreted by Westerners, for whom
| the distinction between Japanese and Chinese martial
| disciplines isn't really relevant. Dreamworks didn't add
| "ninja stars" as a sly insult to Chinese culture, they added
| "ninja stars" because "ninja stars" are a common element in
| the films being parodied.
|
| I mean, it isn't a documentary about Chinese history, it's a
| comedy with talking cartoon animals. Get over yourself,
| sheesh.
| taf2 wrote:
| My favorite movie because - definitely gonna need then universe
| juice!
| wantlotsofcurry wrote:
| Loved the article. I only have one thing to add from my personal
| experience.
|
| In the past, when I was dealing with severe depression, if I read
| this article or similar, I would've thought "this is such
| bullshit, wtf is this moron talking about".
|
| Reading the article today, after being "cured" from depression by
| Electroconvulsive therapy, I thought it was so helpful and
| insightful. I was able to actually understand what the author was
| saying and take their words to heart.
|
| It's crazy how depression clouds things like that, something that
| could be really helpful is seen as super-positive bs and
| unrealistic. Something that you (depressed person) could never
| achieve. Truly sick disease.
|
| If you're dealing with depression right now, please keep pushing,
| it really really does get better :)
| froggertoaster wrote:
| Fun fact: this movie sparked a huge cultural debate in China
| because of how accurate to Chinese culture it was. The center of
| the debate was the perception that Westerners were better at
| making a movie with accurate Chinese cultural elements than the
| Chinese themselves.
|
| https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-film-panda/kung-fu-...
| kazinator wrote:
| Information about China is easily available outside of Chine,
| not to mention that there are large numbers of Chinese people
| living abroad.
|
| A movie made outside of China that contains elements of
| traditional Chinese culture won't be spoiled with corrections
| to fit communist ideals and narratives.
| pessimizer wrote:
| No, it would be spoiled with corrections to fit US ideals and
| narratives.
| kazinator wrote:
| Since around the cultural revolution of the 1960's, a lot
| of the US ideals are just a mashup of eastern philosophies
| anyway, though.
|
| In the 1960's, large numbers of hippies became interested
| in alternative religions from the world, such as Buddhism
| and others.
|
| Today, for instance, finding the "Zen" in something is a
| household concept now, like ordering pizza.
| autarch wrote:
| It's little more complex than that. The Accented Cinema YT
| channel has an excellent video on this topic -
| https://youtu.be/tCCRuUlJ_nA
| froggertoaster wrote:
| How dare you one up me with nuance! :P
|
| Thanks for the link, I'll definitely give this a watch.
| MontagFTB wrote:
| That was a great video - thank you for the share!
| randmeerkat wrote:
| It was excellent and is definitely worth the time. Thanks!
| chungy wrote:
| > The center of the debate was the perception that Westerners
| were better at making a movie with accurate Chinese cultural
| elements than the Chinese themselves.
|
| A large part of that likely has to do with people and their
| descendants that had escaped communist China, bringing along
| the traditional values of pre-communist China. Couple with the
| PRC actively trying to destroy the past, it's a recipe for
| Chinese culture to be best preserved outside of its homeland.
| byw wrote:
| I wouldn't read too much into that narrative, as I find it
| often overstretched and coloured by stereotypes.
| temp8964 wrote:
| No reason for this comment to be downvoted. It is a major
| topic discussed by many Chinese intellectuals.
|
| Readers who are not familiar with the history of Communist
| China can read following Wikipedia pages:
|
| Po Si Jiu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Olds : The Four
| Olds or the Four Old Things (simplified Chinese: Si Jiu ;
| traditional Chinese: Si Jiu ; pinyin: si jiu) was a term used
| during the Cultural Revolution by the student-led Red Guards
| in the People's Republic of China in reference to the pre-
| communist elements of Chinese culture they attempted to
| destroy. The Four Olds were: Old Ideas, Old Culture, Old
| Habits, and Old Customs (Chinese: Jiu Sixiang Jiu Si Xiang ,
| Jiu Wenhua Jiu Wen Hua , Jiu Fengsu Jiu Feng Su , and Jiu
| Xiguan Jiu Xi Guan ).[1] The campaign to destroy the Four
| Olds began in Beijing on August 19, 1966 (the "Red August",
| during which a massacre also took place in Beijing[2]),
| shortly after the launch of the Cultural Revolution.
|
| Pi Lin Pi Kong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticize_Lin,_
| Criticize_Confu... The Criticize Lin (Biao), Criticize
| Confucius Campaign (simplified Chinese: Pi Lin Pi Kong Yun
| Dong ; traditional Chinese: Pi Lin Pi Kong Yun Dong ; pinyin:
| pi Lin pi Kong yundong; also called the Anti-Lin Biao, Anti-
| Confucius campaign) was a political propaganda campaign
| started by Mao Zedong and his wife, Jiang Qing, the leader of
| the Gang of Four. It lasted from 1973 until the end of the
| Cultural Revolution, in 1976. The campaign continued in
| several phases, beginning as an academic attempt to interpret
| Chinese history according to Mao's political theories. In
| 1974 the campaign was joined with another, pre-existent
| campaign to criticise Lin Biao, who had allegedly attempted
| to assassinate Mao in a failed coup before his death in 1971.
| In early 1975 the campaign was modified to indirectly
| criticise China's Premier, Zhou Enlai, and other senior
| Chinese leaders. In mid-1975 the Gang of Four introduced
| debate on Water Margin as a tool for criticism of their
| opponents. The campaign ended in 1976, when the Gang of Four
| were arrested.
| bashmelek wrote:
| The part of the scroll being blank also goes way back,
| reminiscent of the "true and wordless scripture" of Buddhism
| pdimitar wrote:
| Not to start a huge philosophy argument but I always only
| understood it as "the real power to change things around is
| only in you -- no magic scrolls will help you with that".
|
| In a very typical (and loved by me) Buddhism fashion you have
| the protagonist of a tale e.g. be promised wisdom or power if
| they climb a mountain and talk to the monks on top and
| eventually it turns out that _while you were climbing the
| mountain_ you gained the wisdom and strength you were seeking.
| Arriving at the top of the mountain was just the event that is
| supposed to make you aware that you have now succeeded.
|
| I viewed Kung Fu Panda part 1 similarly. If you go through all
| the trials to gain the Dragon Scroll and finish them
| successfully then you ALREADY ARE the "dragon warrior". You
| don't no need scroll for that. That's why it's empty. Not just
| empty; it's a mirror. To show you that the wisdom and power are
| already inside you.
|
| That's what I got out of it.
| dragontamer wrote:
| I'm no expert on Chinese culture. But the message is at least
| as old as "Journey to the West" (aka: 'that monkey king
| story'). Where Tang Sanzang travels westward in search of
| paradise. At the end of the trip, he fails to find paradise,
| and Buddha IIRC tells him to turn around and look back upon his
| journey.
|
| Tang Sanzang created paradise in his time, by solving all the
| issues of the people along the way. It was the journey that
| made paradise, not the end. If he just teleported to the West,
| there would have been no paradise.
|
| ------
|
| Probably a Buddhism thing that keeps coming up over and over
| again over the centuries. But I liked that one.
| worldsayshi wrote:
| "There's no secret ingredient"
|
| I've found this to be very applicable to life. I often
| instinctively look for some magical silver bullet solution for
| hard problems. This makes it easy to procrastinate instead of
| just taking the best action I can come up with right now. To not
| act is also a choice and we often forget to compare the utility
| of non-action to action.
| visarga wrote:
| Sometimes it's better not to act. It's all situation dependent.
| abartl wrote:
| Also you don't need the best action you can come up with. A
| good enough action will do (even inaction is an action). Also,
| if it turns out it wasn't a good action, well, s** happens,
| that's the upredicatable nature of life, so it will be fine,
| you will recover from it.
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| I'm a big fan of esoteric wisdom. Eg conferences in western
| esotericism.
|
| Trolls 2 was directly based on deep esoteric wisdom. Shocking.
| Also, Frozen 2. That's funny, right?
| colesantiago wrote:
| This is just an animated movie cartoon right, is it really that
| deep?
| pdimitar wrote:
| Let's hear your take on what you consider deep?
| dragontamer wrote:
| Good animated movies / cartoons can be more deep and
| existential than live-action, much like how a Picasso painting
| can more deeply reveal the secrets of shapes than many
| photographs.
|
| I don't think Kung Fu Panda is particularly deep, but probably
| is deeper than a lot of other Hollywood films. I'd say the
| deeper animated films I've seen are Secret of Kells (largely an
| adventure story, but very in depth with regards to dark-age
| Irish history/legends/mythology).
|
| There are a lot of in-depth Anime movies, hard to pick anything
| in particular that stands out. Tokyo Godfathers, and Wolf
| Children, probably affected me emotionally the most (despite
| being mostly mundane situations). I think a lot of the more
| sci-fi / dream / supernatural stuff loses points due to
| technobabble (Ghost in a Shell, Evangelion, Paprika), but these
| are also deeper movies than typical.
|
| Tokyo Godfathers / Wolf children manage to be deep about a
| relatively mundane subject. Homeless people for Tokyo
| Godfathers, and Wolf Children is basically a simple "raising a
| young girl / young boy" story, with the wolf-myth just largely
| representing the uncertainty that all mothers face when raising
| kids for the first time. Despite being about mundane subjects
| with only the barest of myth/sci-fi/fantasy in it, these movies
| seem to discuss the human condition better than many other
| films (even contrasted to other anime films, like Evangeleon)
| Zababa wrote:
| > I think a lot of the more sci-fi / dream / supernatural
| stuff loses points due to technobabble
|
| I think you can mostly ignore the technobabble without
| issues, most of the time it's here for the setting but not
| necessary. For example, Akagi and Ten (mangas by Nobuyuki
| Fukumoto) feature a lot of mahjong, but mahjong is secondary
| to what's really happening, which is a clash of multiple
| personalities/ways of life. You can usually see this because
| the important moments don't usually feature the technoblabble
| part. The gambling house arc in Akagi doesn't feature any
| mahjong, yet is the point that defines Akagi as a character.
| The last three volumes of Ten also don't feature any mahjong,
| and are in my opinion the most beautiful manga chapters ever
| written. Evangelion is so loved because the characters are
| flawed humans trying to go through life, the setting is
| almost secondary. Patlabor 2 features large robots in a sci-
| fi world but the politics are the same as ever.
|
| All of these stories are stories about humans before
| everything else, which is why they are so good.
| dragontamer wrote:
| > I think you can mostly ignore the technobabble without
| issues, most of the time it's here for the setting but not
| necessary
|
| I agree that its largely ignorable. Actually, the
| "technobabble" adds a lot of flavor and "coolness" to a lot
| of situations, so its fine for my reptilian brain.
|
| The issue is that every minute of technobabble on the
| screen is another wasted minute from a storytelling
| perspective. When you watch a denser film (like Secret of
| Kells), that's lacking any of that techno-babble... or even
| something like Fate/Stay (which largely cuts out the
| techno-magic babble aside from a few key phrases), the
| storyline is heavier and denser. More things "happen"
| because there's less "filler technobabble" going on.
|
| So when we talk about pleasing my "higher-order" brain (as
| opposed to my reptile brain which is pleased with the
| technobabble + explosions), my high-order brain enjoys the
| character interactions and the deeper analogies to the
| human condition.
|
| -------
|
| So from the "higher-order" perspective, something like
| Tokyo Godfathers can tell a fuller story in a shorter
| amount of time, because there's less technobabble eating up
| the screentime.
| Zababa wrote:
| I wouldn't call that time wasted, I think it's usually
| very important to create an atmosphere, and to better
| understand the world that the people we're watching are
| living in. I've never watched Secret of Kells so I can't
| comment on that.
|
| But it's funny that you pick something like Fate, in both
| the original Stay Night (the visual novel) and Zero (the
| light novel), there is a lot of technobabble. It gets cut
| in the anime adaptations, along with most of the
| interesting parts of the characters and the story. The
| original Stay Night by DEEN was a weird mix of all three
| routes, not great by any means but at least brought
| something new, UBW was butchered, and I'm trying to keep
| things civil so I won't talk about Heaven's Feel. Zero
| had the same treatment, most of the internal dialogue of
| characters was cut, leaving a story with half-baked
| characters and trying to compensate with the visuals.
|
| > So from the "higher-order" perspective, something like
| Tokyo Godfathers can tell a fuller story in a shorter
| amount of time, because there's less technobabble eating
| up the screentime.
|
| That's true. However, I think time is not always a hard
| limit. Sometimes the movie being slow is part of the
| experience. It is something I like a lot, so I probably
| have a bias here.
| dragontamer wrote:
| > But it's funny that you pick something like Fate, in
| both the original Stay Night (the visual novel) and Zero
| (the light novel), there is a lot of technobabble. It
| gets cut in the anime adaptations, along with most of the
| interesting parts of the characters and the story.
|
| Fate/Stay anime is interesting as a series and as a
| storytelling medium.
|
| On the face of it, it feels like Fate/Stay is a soft-
| magic system where the magic is called out as magic and
| rarely elaborated on. Here's healing magic here, or noble
| phantasms over there, or reality marbles, or whatever.
|
| But in actuality, Fate/Stay is a hard-magic system,
| supported by the depth of the original story. All the
| magic has rules. They just skip over the rules
| explanation in the anime, because they don't have the
| time for it (ie: they chose not to have time for it, and
| focus on other elements of the story).
|
| I agree that pointing out to the audience the hard-magic
| system and its rules probably would be beneficial. On the
| other hand... maybe not? All of the anime (including the
| Tsukihime and Garden of Sinners anime/OVAs) consistently
| skip over these explanations and just leave it up to the
| audience to figure out the rule system on their own (if
| they care).
|
| "Story told as if it were soft magic", but with a hard-
| magic reference point thanks to a series of in-depth
| rules published in that visual novel that a much smaller
| portion of the fanbase has read is... fine. Its like how
| Lord of the Rings has all this history in the
| Silmarillion that 99% of readers don't know about. If the
| audience cares about the details, the original VNs /
| wikis / etc. etc. exist. If they don't care about the
| details, all the better, they didn't want to hear the
| explanation in the first place.
|
| Its a compromise system, but its an interesting
| compromise. Frankly, a lot of audience members are happy
| with the soft-magic hand-waved explanations given in the
| anime.
|
| I don't think Fate/Stay is a "deep" anime, not on the
| levels of the other shows I've discussed. But it still
| shows how cutting out the techno-babble in the actual
| anime (and just handwaving the details) increases the
| density of the show. Especially because the "harder" fans
| know how in-depth all of those explanations actually go.
| wodenokoto wrote:
| There are many ways to look at it. Deep, insightful sayings are
| easy to come by. There are books of wise, buddhist and dao
| sayings.
|
| The real depth, in anything insightful said, is created by the
| listener and how they choose to take the words to heart.
| Zababa wrote:
| I don't really understand your point. It is an animated movie,
| but why "just" and why would that prevent it from being "deep"?
| I'll also add that wisdom doesn't need to be "deep". The
| article focuses mostly on explaining quotes which aren't really
| deep. But that doesn't prevent them from being wise.
| travisgriggs wrote:
| My guess is that the OPs thinking went something like:
| cartoons are primarily geared towards young people, right?
| And younger people haven't had as much life experience to
| appreciate some of the more complicated nuances of life.
| Ergo, this movie cannot succeed at topics deep. It's a pretty
| reasonable/straightforward conclusion to reach. Even if it's
| not as simple as that.
| pdimitar wrote:
| Sure, but Pixar / Disney make their movies in a way that
| the kids have what to giggle at and adults are given some
| food for thought (or emotions). I find that formula to have
| worked with crushing success in Kung Fu Panda parts 1 and 2
| in particular. Also Megamind.
| marlowe221 wrote:
| That's right - these animation studios are aware that
| kids are watching these movies... with their parents!
| Zababa wrote:
| There is, at least for me, a big difference between "most
| things in this category tend to be this way", and "this
| thing is in that category, therefore it can't be that way".
| The first statement is a often useful heuristic, the second
| statement is an expression of close mindedness. Note that
| by categories here I mean vague human categories like
| "animated movie" and "deep".
| Ducki wrote:
| Who says cartoons/animations can't go deep? Take a look at
| Bojack Horseman.
| kgwxd wrote:
| After watching it, just reading the name "Bojack" turns my
| current mood 3 shades greyer.
| thorin wrote:
| Or Rick and Morty, The Midnight Gospel, Studio Ghibli?
| dragontamer wrote:
| Rick and Morty fakes a lot of its depth with nonsense
| technobabble, akin to Evangeleon's biblical references
| which are largely nonsense.
|
| The good bits of Rick and Morty are very short, maybe
| 1-minute sections of episodes. Morty's relationship with
| Planetina was one of the deeper moments of all of season 5,
| except it is summarized in maybe 90-seconds of story at the
| most.
|
| And its really not much deeper than "some eco-friendly
| people turn out to be eco-terrorists", and that's enough to
| ruin a relationship. Yeah, sucks for Morty, but... its not
| exactly a particularly deep message (deep in the context of
| the rest of the show, yes. And I definitely enjoy those
| kinds of moments. But something needs to be longer than
| 90-seconds of story for me to call it "deep", especially
| compared to other things I've seen)
|
| ----------
|
| I dunno, as far as technobabble / nonsense words go, I
| prefer Evangeleon from that perspective. There's a lot to
| be said about Shinji's exploration of his depression
| (caused by Gendo, his father's, obsession over the Human
| Instrumentality Project).
|
| Rick is just a toxic asshole that the show forces you to
| watch. Someone like Morty should have run away / cut Rick
| out of his life a long long time ago. At least in
| Evangelion, Shinji is actively trying to cut out the entire
| mecha-project out of his life (running away multiple
| times), but since Shinji is one of the few candidates who
| can pilot the mech, he's forced back into the job over-and-
| over again (unlike Morty who seems to just be this passive
| guy who is needlessly picked on by Rick for 5 seasons).
|
| If nothing really matters, then Morty could just leave and
| that's that (and the fact that this hasn't been explored
| across ~5 seasons shows the limitations of the relatively
| shallow, episodic format... forcing Rick and Morty to be
| friends again by the start of the next episode to keep
| things serialized). What makes Shinji's situation unique is
| that Shinji's worth as a pilot is more than he gives credit
| for, and each time he tries to leave, a disaster occurs.
| Each time Shinji does fight, a disaster also occurs by his
| hands. So Shinji's confusion and depression is far more
| understanding.
|
| Ex: Shinji's relationship with Toji evolves over a few
| episodes, and is deeper than all 5 season's of Morty's
| development.
|
| Shinji is forced to pilot the mech in episode 1. Shinji's
| inexperience with the mech causes collateral damage, and
| Toji's sister gets trapped in the rubble. Toji bullies
| Shinji until Shinji saves him in the next fight, as Toji
| didn't realize the issues of being a pilot. The arc
| culminates as Toji himself becomes a pilot, and Shinji is
| forced by his father to destroy Toji's mech. Shinji is
| being forced to follow Gendo (his father's) plans as
| scripted out by "The Dead Sea Scrolls" (aka: technobabble),
| but the important thing is that Gendo's ambition for the
| project is so great, he's willing to traumatize his own son
| over it. Shinji x Toji's relationship is just one sacrifice
| Gendo makes, and Shinji's depression goes even deeper
| because of it.
| thorin wrote:
| Thanks for the reply, I'm only about 6 episodes into R&M
| so my view might change. What is "deep" is probably a
| better question, The Simpsons is pretty deep if you
| choose to look at it that way. I'm sure many people have
| written PHD thesis on this kind of thing. Personally I
| found the Midnight Gospel pretty deep as it basically
| rehashes a lot of Buddhist philosophies which Duncan
| Trussell is very fond of.
| dragontamer wrote:
| I think R&M is an unusual message, in that it tries to
| take a Nihilist stance on a lot of subjects. Combined
| with pop-culture references and technobabble, it can come
| off as more high-brow than it really is IMO.
|
| Neon Genesis Evangelion, really did the Nihilist thing
| better though. No matter what Shinji tried, things kept
| getting worse. Rick is "too obvious" of an asshole. Gendo
| (Shinji's father) is better, because nominally speaking,
| Gendo is working on a project to literally cancel out the
| apocalypse that's occurring in the series.
|
| So when Gendo says "Get in the mech and fight that
| monster", you generally know that Shinji (probably)
| should do that, you know, to save the world. The long-
| term effects of this decision (as well as the alternative
| decision: for Shinji to run away from this
| responsibility) are explored in the short 26 episodes of
| the series.
|
| When Rick says "shove these 'Mega Seeds' up your ass
| Morty", I'm not entirely sure if Morty should comply with
| that. They have some foreshadowing going on for the "what
| if Morty stopped listening to Rick all the time", thanks
| to the "Alternate Universe Evil Morty" plotline going on,
| but we've had like 4 episodes so far with that character?
| And most of the time, that character doesn't interact
| with mainline Rick/mainline Morty.
|
| ---------
|
| The show is randomly pretty good with some relationships.
| Rick x Unity was a good episode, as was Morty x
| Planetina. Otherwise, I think its largely just a comedy
| show where ridiculous things happen in a crude manner,
| with a mildly Nihilist perspective on events.
|
| A lot of R&M scenes are due to incredibly poor decisions
| of the main characters: Rick outright lying to Morty and
| then hiding the lie through toxic interactions (its your
| fault Morty). Morty becoming so overly influenced by his
| sexual desire to potentially cause a world-ending (or
| universe-ending) event. Jerry wimping out of some fight.
| And these decisions are largely encoded into the format
| of these characters. These characters rarely "try
| something else", because doing so would break the
| serialization format (ie: the golden rule of American
| cartoons. Do not change the characters).
| zhynn wrote:
| Plug for CJ the X's excellent video essay on the
| dialectics of Rick and Morty. Given the thought you put
| into your breakdowns of both R&M and NGE, I think you
| might like it.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qm4dxUIRZso
| Zababa wrote:
| Note that Gendo has always been focused on getting his
| wife back, the Human Instrumentality Project was just a
| means to his ends. In both timelines/stories, the
| original series Neon Genesis Evangelion and the Rebuilds,
| he doesn't follow the plan.
| dragontamer wrote:
| Well yes but I'm trying to avoid unnecessary spoilers, in
| case the readers haven't seen the ending yet.
|
| The Toji sub-plot is all wrapped up before the 10th
| episode, and is a side-story at best. Its barely a
| spoiler IMO. What makes Evangelion great is that its
| filled with these interactions: Misato's interactions
| with Ritsuko, Ritsuko interacting with Rei, Rei
| interacting with Asuka, etc. etc.
|
| Its filled to the brim, not all of the interactions are
| depressing, some are ridiculously over-the-top / campy
| (especially the excuses for fanservice scenes), but the
| "serious story" that's told over the 26 episodes (or 4
| OVA movies for the new timeline) is pretty good. Albeit
| heavily laden with long-winded dialogs about Selee, Three
| Magi computer system, Dead Sea Scrolls, AT Fields, the
| 2nd, 3rd, or 4th impact events and Hedgehog's Paradox
| (Okay, Hedgehog's Paradox actually is relevant and the
| running theme between all of these characters. But a lot
| of the other stuff doesn't matter, lol).
| Zircom wrote:
| I wouldn't say Midnight Gospel is really deep, isn't it
| basically just his podcast set to a aesthetically
| stimulating background animation that's tangentially
| related to what their talking about?
| kgwxd wrote:
| Did you watch all the episodes?
| Zircom wrote:
| I'm not saying it's bad, just that "deep" to my
| understanding is when a piece of art has more to it than
| what it appears to at first glance. Midnight Gospel is
| about a guy doing a "spacecast" where he interviews
| random aliens he finds. But when you look "deeper', it's
| really....a guy doing a podcast where he interviews
| people. Not a lot going on under the surface, just
| reskinning the interviews into a different format and
| adding a small bit of sci-fi world building.
| Melatonic wrote:
| They can definitely go very deep - it is just a very western
| (or maybe even specifically American) thing where people
| think "Cartoons are just for kids".
|
| Grave of the Fireflies is depressing as fuck and definitely
| does not skip the serious stuff.
| andi999 wrote:
| too deep
| lordnacho wrote:
| Crime & Punishment is just ink on paper, right?
|
| There's nothing about the medium that says how good the message
| is. If anything not having to work with human actors and real
| world physics should give a bit of flexibility in the
| storytelling.
| croes wrote:
| Ever seen "When the Wind Blows"?
|
| The way it is made does not allow any conclusions to be drawn
| about its depth.
| DocTomoe wrote:
| Or "Hotaru no Haka".
| [deleted]
| pjerem wrote:
| I totally missed out the Kung Fu Panda "event" when it was
| released and I just watched it with my son some weeks ago,
| choosing it randomly on Netflix, remembering myself that i heard
| it was good. I was just expecting some good Dreamworks
| blockbuster.
|
| Well, I was mind blown. The first movie is a masterpiece, the
| trilogy is really solid. It's pretty deep, entertaining, fun, and
| beautiful and it carries a lot of interesting messages. I loved
| it.
| mkaic wrote:
| Agreed. It was one of the first movies that made me realize
| what animated movies were truly capable of. Fast forward 10
| years and now I'm absolutely obsessed with animation -- it's
| one of my all time favorite art forms! You can convey emotional
| ideas so specifically and precisely with the control that
| animation gives. It's fantastic, and KFP makes great use of the
| medium. There are few kinds of entertainment I enjoy more than
| a well-written animated movie.
| csytan wrote:
| "Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a
| gift. That's why it is called the present" - Master Oogway
| pdimitar wrote:
| There's a very nice kernel of truth in that but come on, the
| way it's said is just an English-specific pun.
|
| EDIT: to clarify: I 100% agree with the quote but I don't find
| puns a good medium through which to convey an eternal wisdom as
| that quote.
| timendum wrote:
| It works also in Italian and probably in Dutch, French,
| Swedish, Portuguese and Catalanl; the root is from Latin
| praesentare ("to show"), common to all these languages (and
| others).
| qiskit wrote:
| Is present synonymous with "now" and "gift" in italian? Can
| you provide an example? Regardless, it certainly doesn't
| apply to chinese.
| mc32 wrote:
| I know I'm being too literal but I kinda hate quips like that
| which rely on turns of phrases. They are completely devoid of
| any basis.
|
| I'm sure there are languages that don't have the duality of
| gift/present as well as a coincidence in meaning for the word
| meaning "now".
|
| I mean, sure, it's "aunt cute" or whatever but other than that
| it has not meaning.
| doliveira wrote:
| An example that comes to mind is the English "to be" working
| for both essence and state. In Portuguese we have different
| verbs, so we have the sentence "ele nao e assim, ele esta
| assim" which conveys the message that whatever he is going
| through right now, it doesn't define who he is deep down
| inside. But a literal translation just becomes the
| nonsensical "he isn't like that, he is like that".
|
| I was trying to explain to a foreigner when to use "ser" or
| "estar" when translating "to be" and I tried to explain that
| one conveys essence and the other state, but that didn't seem
| to clarify things in his mind. He just kept saying it was all
| arbitrary which frankly doesn't make much sense in my head.
|
| So I wonder if this linguistical difference provokes
| dramatical differences in inner thinking and culture as well.
| For instance, does the message of the aforementioned aphorism
| still works in English, I just have to find a better
| translation? Or do English natives will naturally have a
| stronger sense of a person being tainted by their actions?
| vulcan01 wrote:
| > But a literal translation just becomes the nonsensical
| "he isn't like that, he is like that".
|
| I guess a better translation is "He isn't that, he is like
| that." But I agree that English doesn't have a distinction
| between permanent states vs impermanent states in the "to
| be" verb.
| simonh wrote:
| It has very profound meaning, and always living in the now is
| a central tenet of Buddhist philosophy.
| sjmm1989 wrote:
| > They are completely devoid of any basis.
|
| No pal, that's just you and your inability to accept that you
| may not know everything there is to know, and so you cannot
| accept that these play on words may carry wisdom in them that
| you are not aware of yet, or just haven't quite cognized.
|
| And pal... Duality is in almost nearly everything. It's not
| language specific. It's universe specific. In our reality,
| there is generally almost always an equal and opposite to
| everything. If you don't know what somethings equal or
| opposite is yet, you just have yet to find it. This seems to
| be true regardless of whoever argues, because all it takes is
| time to find that proof.
|
| Even Time has its own equal and opposite. Space. Through time
| you travel when moving through space, but in space you can
| travel through time as well by not moving at all...
|
| So yeah, it's not even a case of you being too literal. You
| are just being obtuse or ignorant. Maybe even arrogant. But
| not too literal.
| throwaway675309 wrote:
| You're not entirely wrong, a catchy or pithy enough saying
| tends to gain traction among pseudo-intellectuals just by
| virtue of a clever turn of phrase. It's like all of the
| stupid analogies that they make in episodes of TNG whenever
| they're trying to explain a difficult technological concept.
|
| Eg "Adversity is a good thing. Kites rise against, not with,
| the wind". Congratulations you managed to find a physical
| world corollary that ultimately has no relationship to what
| it's being compared to.
| chucksta wrote:
| >There is basis, yesterday did in fact happen in the past and
| tomorrow can not be said with certainty.
|
| >There are many phrases in many languages that don't have
| translations to others or may mean something different. See
| the phrase "lost in translation". Even something as little as
| "no worries" without translation can still be lost in
| translation culture.
| sjmm1989 wrote:
| > See the phrase "lost in translation". Even something as
| little as "no worries" without translation can still be
| lost in translation culture.
|
| Exactly. You may know the word for 'worry' or 'worries',
| but you may not know the word for 'no'. And in that moment
| you could be misinterpreting the intentions and
| actions/words of a person who only told you 'don't worry'.
| Meanwhile, you are big worrying.
| shishy wrote:
| Hah, I remember and love that quote. Such a fun play with
| words.
| sjmm1989 wrote:
| I like quotes like these because I find that quotes that
| manage to rhyme in tandem with the message given usually are
| correct in some fashion. Maybe not 100% correct, but damn
| near it more often than those who are not.
| glutamate wrote:
| Obligatory link to Slavoj Zizek's take on Kong Fu Panda:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCD3hg6OEQw
| clutchski wrote:
| The Panda is also a bumbling unskilled male who fails upwards
| while being supported by a female who put in years of work to
| build real expertise (Tigress).
| jimbokun wrote:
| Because the Tigress paints inside the line and follows all the
| rules. Where Oogway specifically chooses Po because he is a
| self learner and innovates and does things in an unconventional
| way. Which is why he is the one who beats Tai Lung.
| blue16 wrote:
| Kung-Fu Panda is an under-rated trilogy. The relation to
| philosophy and ethics is strong and very poignant
| treyfitty wrote:
| I find that western culture emphasizes the importance of agency
| at the expense of community. Kung fu panda, and most animated
| movies are good examples of where we see agency exalted as a
| desirable trait, and acts of rebellion are portrayed as "brave."
| While rebellion is a necessary part of growing up, it is merely a
| manifestation of becoming comfortable with one's agency in the
| world and nothing more.
|
| The article explains why kung fu panda is a great movie by
| starting with a quote highlighting the pandas desire to break
| away from expectations to pursue his passion. By the end of the
| article, there's a quote about illusion of control. It's
| contradictory, and ultimately I think we're ingrained to favor
| sentiments of agency and discount any notion of loss-of-control
| which is a shame.
|
| Societies are created by individual pursuits towards "happiness."
| I submit that societies crumble because of the same forces. By
| prioritizing individualistic endeavors, and cherishing agency, we
| fail to account for the need to compromise, and collaborate to
| fulfill societal duties (whatever those may be in any given time)
| FredPret wrote:
| Western culture is also soaked in politics. It's almost all we
| talk about. And it's all about compromises.
| h2odragon wrote:
| One of the under-appreciated bits of wisdom in this movie, to my
| mind, is "Do not attempt to fly by means of Fireworks fastened to
| furniture."
|
| Sure, it works out for the implausibly resilient cartoon panda
| but even he suffers some. It's never that pleasant in the real
| world.
| [deleted]
| bitwize wrote:
| I loved that bit because it was an explicit reference to the
| Chinese legend of Wan Hu, the mandarin who attempted to do just
| that.
|
| That's probably one of the reasons why the Chinese animation
| industry panicked upon _Kung Fu Panda_ 's release, judging the
| West to be doing better Chinese-themed animation than the
| Chinese were capable of at the time.
| a_e_k wrote:
| That calls to mind one of my favorite bits from RFC 1925 ("The
| Twelve Networking Truths") [0]:
|
| > With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is
| not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they
| are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them
| as they fly overhead.
|
| [0] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1925
| anonymouse008 wrote:
| > "Do not attempt to fly by means of Fireworks fastened to
| furniture."
|
| Do not attempt to fly by means of {VC Money} fastened to
| {hyper-growth mindset}
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| This makes me feel old. It reminds me of the scores of "wasn't
| _Fern Gully_ actually surprisingly poignant? " articles that came
| out in around 2008, or the "philosophy of _Shrek_ " from around
| 2013.
|
| Now the kids who grew up with _Kung Fu Panda_ are internet
| journalists.
| dragontamer wrote:
| Lets hope the tradition continues and people talk about how
| awesome Megamind was in a few years.
| KhoomeiK wrote:
| I'd like to add that Kung Fu Panda actually illustrates a genuine
| philosophical conflict between Daoism and Confucianism, which
| played out across early China during the Spring and Autumn
| period.
|
| Oogway represents Daoism with its search for inner peace and
| going with the flow/dao. Shifu, on the other hand, represents
| Confucianism with its concerns for moral duty and worldly social
| harmony. The internal and external, immaterial and material--each
| has a role in the construction of a philosophy conducive to
| success.
|
| "Oogway explains that he can not make the peach tree blossom or
| bear fruit before it is ready. Shifu retorts that there are
| things that can be controlled like when the fruit falls or where
| the seeds are planted. Oogway finalizes by saying that no matter
| what is done, the tree will still grow to be a peach tree,
| instead of any other kind of tree and that great things can
| happen if it is helped and nurtured. Oogway argues the point of
| Daoism and that nature will take its course. Shifu argues the
| point of Confucianism and that everything has order." [1]
|
| Also shameless plug for my essay about Culture, Philosophy, and
| Reinforcement Learning which comments on similar dualities and
| their relations. [2]
|
| [1] https://medium.com/@gvreligion/quit-dont-quit-noodles-
| don-t-...
|
| [2] https://medium.com/@rohan.pandey/culture-philosophy-and-
| rein...
| galaxyLogic wrote:
| Good points about Dao vs Confucius. In our times the debate
| seems to be between autocracy vs. democracy.
| UweSchmidt wrote:
| "The Kung Fu Panda movies focus on moving away from the
| tradition of Confucianism and moving towards the Daoism ideas
| of doing what feels natural."
|
| I haven't watched the movies, but it seems Panda-Daoism happens
| to conform to Hollywood's western individualist thought and
| therefore predictably "wins". I'd love to watch or read
| something that lets the Confucianist be the deeper truth, for a
| change. Do you happen to know of anything?
|
| I suspect there are is quite a bit of wisdom in there worth
| exploring, and wouldn't mind to be confronted with a stronger
| dose of "different" once in a while.
| DocTomoe wrote:
| I think you'll have to search long to even find a Chinese who
| thinks that Confucianism is in any way more "true" or a
| "deeper truth" than Daoism (or any other of the Tang-Dynasty-
| era philosophies like Legalism or Mozi). The philosophies are
| not in opposition, they look at different aspects of life.
| throwaway2n32 wrote:
| Is this some how related to propaganda against CCP.
| blue16 wrote:
| An under-rated movie (and trilogy as a whole). They take
| philosophy and ethics and morph it into something so easy to
| understand even a child enjoys listening to it.
| gerbilly wrote:
| The bit that gets me is when Oogway ascends. In my opinion it's
| not because he's really old or just because it's his time.
|
| He realises that he has to go because, otherwise Shifu is always
| going to look to him for answers, and he will never find his way
| until he is gone.
| Uhhrrr wrote:
| Description of working on Kung Fu Panda from Dan Harmon
| (Community, Rick and Morty):
|
| > My hats off to anyone that can write a Dreamworks Animation
| film. They have a unique process.
|
| > First they storyboard the entire film. That is the first step.
| Not kidding. No writers, no script, just a story, and an entire
| film drawn on pieces of paper.
|
| > Then Katzenberg watches an animatic of the boards and says,
| surprisingly, "this needs a lot of work. You have a month."
|
| > Then they hire their first writer. And spend that month
| changing as much of the storyboards as they can, which is about
| 20 to 30 percent. If the 30 percent change isn't the right kind
| of change, people get fired. Maybe the director, maybe the
| writer, maybe both...
|
| > I came in about four writers into the process. It's kind of
| hard to write a "better" scene than the last writer when the
| rules are that you can only change 30 percent of each scene or
| completely change 30 percent of the scenes, per Katzenberg
| screening. So, for instance, in this scene, the panda comes up a
| flight of stairs carrying a bucket of water, slips on a banana
| peel, says something to two geese and does an air guitar. The
| good news? There can be anything in the bucket. Your mission:
| make the movie better.
|
| https://www.avclub.com/hilarious-things-to-put-in-kung-fu-pa...
| keb_ wrote:
| Great article! Kung Fu Panda remains in my memory even so many
| years after I've watched it because of its memorable quotes, but
| also because of the tragic and relatable motivation of its
| villain (Tai Lung). I've always found the exchange between Tai
| Lung and Shifu towards the end of the film to be profoundly sad,
| partly because of the great vocal performance by Ian McShane:
|
| > Who filled my head with dreams? Who drove me to train until my
| bones cracked? Who denied me my destiny? [...] All I ever did, I
| did to make you proud. Tell me how proud you are, Shifu! Tell me!
|
| > I have always been proud of you. From the first moment, I've
| been proud of you. And it was my pride that blinded me. I loved
| you too much to see what you were becoming, what I was turning
| you into. I'm sorry.
|
| There's also brief moment where Tai Lung's facial expression
| changes to hint that he took the apology to heart. I'm not used
| to seeing that amount of depth in kids' films!
| tzs wrote:
| > I'm not used to seeing that amount of depth in kids' films!
|
| I think it was Heinlein who when asked how to write a good
| novel for juveniles said that you write a good novel and then
| take out the sex scenes.
|
| The major studios have long been following that approach with
| their big-budget animated films.
| lotsofspots wrote:
| An apology that came twenty years too late!
| Xavdidtheshadow wrote:
| KFP is one of my favorite movies; I (an adult without kids) watch
| it yearly on my birthday. It's got so much heart and it's fight
| choreography is up there with other all-timers (ip man, crouching
| tiger, hidden dragon, the matrix).
|
| If you only watch one clip, check out this segment from the
| training montage:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCk9VAxEpD0&t=156s
|
| Their use of visual boundaries and transitions is just so superb.
| steveylang wrote:
| I love KFP and this article as well, but this one seems a bit
| off?
|
| > "One often meets his destiny on the road he takes to avoid it."
| > Life Lesson: You bring about what you focus on, whether good or
| bad.
|
| Oogway tells Shifu about his vision that Tai Lung will return, in
| response Shifu orders that guards and arms at the prison should
| be doubled to prevent Tai Lung's escape.
|
| Oogway then response with that line, which is basically saying no
| matter what he does, he's not going to prevent Tai Lung's escape.
| So the quote seems to be more about the wisdom of accepting your
| current circumstances so that you can better deal with them (the
| quote about stilling your mind comes right after.)
| AntonioCao wrote:
| Eric Weinstein also wrote an excellent analysis of Kung Fu Panda
| on Quora.
|
| https://www.quora.com/In-Kung-Fu-Panda-how-does-Po-end-up-de...
| zemptime wrote:
| I love Kung Fu Panda! It secretly became my favorite movie.
| Secretly, because it wasn't until years after I'd seen it that
| I realized how much I liked it compared to... every other
| movie.
| hwers wrote:
| Immediately what I thought of. I miss this era of Weinstein
| when he stuck to conveying things the way he thought of them
| (with all the underlying mathematical abstractions intact)
| rather than simplify it to reach a broader audience.
| kazinator wrote:
| The climactic wisdom in _Kung Fu Panda_ is a trope from _Dumbo_
| [movie about elephant, 1941].
|
| An object believed to be magic, giving abilities to the
| possessor, turns out to be just a prop. It's all in you, you just
| have to believe in yourself.
| throwaway675309 wrote:
| Or put another way: mind over matter is amplified by
| psychosomatism. Sometimes ignorance really is bliss...
| DocTomoe wrote:
| It's an ancient trope: It appears in the epic of Gilgamesh, who
| searches for immortality in the form of a magic coral flower,
| which eventually gets stolen, only for Gilgamesh to realize he
| was immortal all along, because of his legacy in his city Uruk.
| He also gets made a god after his death.
| bbertelsen wrote:
| Quote: "You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get
| a peach". Lesson: There are some things you can't change.
|
| Quote: "There is no secret ingredient" Lesson: It's just you,
| keep grinding!
| Melatonic wrote:
| This made me think of the old quote "When life gives you
| lemons..." which is (I think) supposed to be inspirational in
| that even when you get dealt a bad hand you should still keep
| going and make the best of it.
|
| The thing is I freaking love lemons and use them in all kinds
| of shit - when life gives ME lemons it ends up being a very,
| very good day :-)
| aspenmayer wrote:
| Even stranger is that lemons themselves are a hybrid of
| bitter orange and citron. So life really did give us lemons,
| though humans may have helped.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon
| Melatonic wrote:
| Almost all citrus is man made - from what I remember the
| only OG ones were mandarins, pomelos, and something
| else....
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